Author Topic: Beyond Visual Range Air Combat dynamics...  (Read 3744 times)

Offline AKSWulfe

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Beyond Visual Range Air Combat dynamics...
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2001, 02:37:00 PM »
You want icons off because it FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS good right DeeZCamp?
-SW

Offline AKDejaVu

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Beyond Visual Range Air Combat dynamics...
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »
Quote
BTW, a few months ago HT said he was considering friendly only radar. If this gets implemented you guys will be against it no? I mean your views on it wouldn't instantly change would they? I know lazs would speak his mind, not too sure about Rosco and Cletus though.

That's so diddlying typical of you staga.  Yeah.. whatever HTC says Cletus and I support.

I mean.. we've been 100% supportive of the CHog perking.  Right?  Lord knows we don't speak out on that one.  :rolleyes:

How about this:

I'm so tired of people thinking that WHINING ABOUT THE SAME DAMN THING INCESSANTLY OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN is the same thing as it being popular oppinion.  I'm tired of people thinking that IF THEY COMPLAIN LONG ENOUGH AND LOUD ENOUGH that the change will be made... basically regardless of merit.

Present some good ideas for a fix.  Cit doesn't do this.. he just highlights his percieved problem and runs off.  This thread is no different.  Thus the openning remark.

Having an oppinion is one thing.  Expressing it over and over and over and over is another.  Of course, the usuall double standards apply for myself and people like staga and zigrat.

AKDejaVu

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2001, 02:46:00 PM »
DJ.. hblair, not who you have in your post.
-SW

Offline skernsk

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« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2001, 02:49:00 PM »
Deez you can laugh out loud and right in my face.

I am at least HONEST about the game being hard for me.  I don't run up a 10 kill streak in anything.  I get outflown a whole bunch and not having icons would probably mean my exit from Aces High.

I am willing to hear ideas and suggestions on them...for example.

1.  Limit the range to 3k
2.  NOT HAVE THE PLANETYPE IN IT -- instead just be red with rook or knight in the icon.
3.  Keep range on the icon -- i need this crutch sorry :)  It might be ok to have no range until you are under 1k.


If you wanna be a salamander and laugh at everybody go to WW2OL and fit right in.  If you want contribute to a discussion and listen to other opinions and ideas then check the attitude at the door sit down and by all means let's hear some ideas.

Offline DeeZCamp

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« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2001, 03:40:00 PM »
SKernsk,... I am not making fun of you, infact thats cool that you have an opinon,... and yes MINE IS HONEST too. I HONESTLY "FEEL" that Icons are too easy to fight against.

You have labled it as a Crutch (good) its nice to hear the truth once in a while. <S> you for actually saying it.

Others like Wulfie who need icons also just blabber on about how its Good to have them protest that the end the world would seemingly happen, if they were removed from Aces.  They KNOW it would be harder to fly and Fight without them. Stop hiding behind your real reasons.

SAY IT WULF it would be harder to fly and fight without them. IT would require more SA, and Would enable alot more realism tactical, real world uses. CAMOFLAGE comes TO MIND.

Anyway yeah...  REmove em.. OR make a HARDCORE realism ARENA that gets rid of all the "GAMEPLAY garbage"

The only thing that should be kept "GAMEY"
would be the ability to DIE, and then start again.


-out

Offline skernsk

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« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2001, 03:56:00 PM »
Sorry for getting hot.

Deez..it is a necessary part of gameplay.  You are the not so silent minority.  I am willing to hear suggestions and make compromises, but not willing to let icons go without a knock down, drag out fight :)

Offline DeeZCamp

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« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2001, 04:08:00 PM »
LOL...  :D  Skernsk


Round 1 skernsk  ;)
Lets compromise


Keep the "gamey" Main arena and also

Lets push for an ALL-OUT-Hardcore realism Arena Also  :)

One that involves planes that fought against each other for specific time periods with the aformentioned posts of Iconless challenge  :D

Offline Toad

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« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2001, 04:10:00 PM »
What the totally mistaken "harder = more real-er" crowd fails to recognize is that "Beyond Visual Range Air Combat is artificially the defacto situation in ALL the current ACM games.

This is because pixel-limited, FOV limited, 2D monitors artificially SHORTEN visual range vis-a-vis a real life situation. So you are always fighting "beyond visual range" because "normal" visual cues occur at much closer ranges than they should. (Thus normal ACM moves are usually started much later than they should be, generating a-historical combat situations.)

The games are AUTOMATICALLY harder than real life due to technological limitations.

You can't see planform, detail or definition at the "normal" ranges that you would in real life. SIMPLE, INDISPUTABLE, FACT, guys.

Totally doing away with Icons is the incorrect solution. You NEED icons to give you the information that would normally be available.

Before you jump on me for being too "pro icon" read this post from LONG ago. I've got even older ones that state my position, but not as well as this one does.  :)

**********


03-06-2000


If we're going to actually try a few different means of IFF instead of this 10 year old system, I'd be really happy.
Here's a few points to ponder. These thoughts are based on a non-historical arena, where all sides fly all planes. Strict Historical could/should be different.

Ranges would have to be hashed out but that's an area that affords easy experimentaion once the overall system is set.

1. At long range, a plane <whether friend or foe, fighter or bomber> should just be an unknown dot.

2. As range closes, one would be able to distinguish a dot as a bomber earlier than a fighter. Therefore, some sort of "buff" ID should show at a range that would still be a dot for a fighter. At this range you couldn't tell friend from foe.

This means a dot could be either a long range plane of either type or a closer fighter that is not yet distinguishable. You just couldn't tell.

3. As range further decreased, a fighter ID should show. You should also now be able to tell, in some way, friend from foe, perhaps just a red dot at nose, tail and wingtips. This assumes that we would <in Real Life> be distinguishing plane type. Again, this would be a different range for a bomber than a fighter.

4. Now, after IFF range, add distance information. Range info should perhaps only be shown in 1k or .5k increments to avoid the rapidly running counters. I would not show range beyond a certain distance <a yet to be determined "threat" range> and I would remove it as the aircraft comes to "guns range." Perhaps cut out range info inside of 1k or .5k at minimum. You need IFF here, but you don't need range when you're ready to shoot. That should be part of pilot skills and judgement.

5. I would have no aircraft type ID available at ranges that allow you to distinugish that info from the graphics. (determined for the lowest resolution avail). I would allow some simple "type" info at ranges where you could see it in real life.

Different colored dots, arrows, numbers...any of these could be used to provide this type of information while minimizing and shrinking the huge icons we now have.

Just some thoughts. I'm sure everyone has some ideas and I'd love to read them. I hope we can get a meaningful discussion going and I also hope we can talk HTC into experimenting in the SEA with "alternative Icon lifestyles".

This DOES NOT, however, mean the current Icon system is perfect. It could be improved and should be experimented."
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Offline Fester'

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Beyond Visual Range Air Combat dynamics...
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2001, 04:19:00 PM »
all my post was about was inflight radar and darbars on the map clipboard is to much information for a ww2 game

if this info was in tower only that would be preferable

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2001, 04:19:00 PM »
When each country can get the same planes, Icons are esential.  Which spit is my wingman, which is the enemy?  I'll guess I'll just shoot and find out!

Being more difficult does not neccesarily make a game better, and things shouldn't be made more difficult just for the sake of it.

There always must be a balance between realism and gameplay.  

We all want things to be as realistic as possible, yet we are playing a game and some concessions must be made to make it fun.  The vast majority of a combat pilot's life was relatively dull.  Many pilots went for months without even seeing an enemy plane.  Is this what we want?  It would be realistic, wouldn't it?  

eskimo

Offline hblair

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Beyond Visual Range Air Combat dynamics...
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2001, 04:21:00 PM »
I too disagree with ya deez about the icons in the main arena. There's gotta be some way to identify the baddies. I just feel the current in-plane radar oughta be toned way down.

Deja, you gonna be ok man? I could just see your face turning red, you shouldn't get so worked up, your gonna blow a circuit.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2001, 04:22:00 PM »
As I told you elsewhere, I can fly with or without icons. It makes no difference to me.

As I also told you elsewhere, in a simulated world that is 1/500th the size of the real one being displayed on anywhere from a 14" to a 21" flat screen monitor icons are necessary because you do NOT get the detail or visual cues you would in the real world.

You are such a dud (yes without an e at the end) DeeZCamp, words to describe your inability to understand don't exist.
-SW

Offline hblair

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« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2001, 04:39:00 PM »
SW, I'm glad you agree that radar should be toned down. Now you need to speak to Deja about it.

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2001, 04:45:00 PM »
Oh.. sorry hblair..  didn't know this was a "what's your oppinion" thread.  Thought it was just more of a "say something increadibly stupid and run" thread.

I think dar-bar should be dissabled to promote NOE flying.  Other than that, the dar system works good enough.  I've said it before in threads where the topic was actually discussed.

AKDejaVu

Offline Zippatuh

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« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2001, 04:56:00 PM »
WOW – I almost missed out on the “get rid of dar” thread, whew.   :rolleyes:

From hblair:

Why do you guys feel so threatened when we express our dislike for it?

Well, because I, not being the old timer that some of you are, feel threatened when you all make some suggestions about changing the game.  It may not be true, but impression is 9 tenths the law right?  ;) I get the impression that some of you “old timers” actually have the ear of the big man himself.  One person with a good report can make a lot more difference than 100 nobody’s.  Why do I think this, I won’t go into it.  The C-hog debate has been voiced enough, without any good conclusion as far as I’m concerned.

When the hblair’s, Cit’s, and you insert whatever other well know nic’s come out with drastic changes.  Then continually voice them.  Yeah, it worries me.

Fights may not be that hard to find if dar was gone; however, finding the “kind” of fight you want to get into is if it’s gone.  I’ve got an hour, hmmm, what do I want to do?  Look for the good 1v1 fight, go for the furball, attack a heavily defended base, attack a base not being defended, etc etc.  I can spend anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes when I first get on looking at the map trying to figure out what I want to do.

In flight dar, well, that’s already limited anyway.  Icons, I like em.  Ya wanna shorten ‘em, don’t know what to think about that.  The Rumble was kind of cool but not sure about the MA.  I’m all for no dar below 500 ft.

Zippatuh

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Zippatuh ]