Author Topic: Middle East - DejaVu?  (Read 4079 times)

Offline Toad

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2002, 09:11:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bashwolf
I got few questions for you people
When was Isreal created?
Who lived there before there for past 2000 years?



From another thread:


THE ORIGINS AND EVOLUTION OF THE PALESTINE PROBLEM 1917-1988

Quote

"The origins of the Palestine problem as an international issue, however, lie in events occurring towards the end of the First World War.

These events led to a League of Nations decision to place Palestine under the administration of Great Britain as the Mandatory Power under the Mandates System adopted by the League. In principle, the Mandate was meant to be in the nature of a transitory phase until Palestine attained the status of a fully independent nation, a status provisionally recognized in the League's Covenant, but in fact the Mandate's historical evolution did not result in the emergence of Palestine as an independent nation."


But even that is really not far back enough......

Palestine: History
 
Quote
"Palestine stands alone among the Roman provinces in that here only there existed a national identity strong enough effectively to challenge Roman rule.  That identity depended on a body of Hebrew religious writings that constituted a concrete locus for the formation of durable political and religious institutions."
 

In other words, the Romans didn't call one of the Palestinian provinces "Judaea" for nothing.

But even THAT really isn't far back enough....

HISTORY OF THE WORLD

Quote
-2500  Early Hebrew civilization in Israel area
-1400  Hebrews invade Canaan (Joshua)
-1300  Hebrew Exodus from Egypt under Moses
-1250  Israelites invade Palestine
-1020  Saul becomes King of Israel
-720  Assyrians invade Palestine


So, all this "this land is YOUR land, this land is MY land" stuff is pretty silly isn't it?

I mean, how far back can one go with the "my land" argument "logically" :rolleyes: used to justify the slaughter?

<..and this isn't true of just Palestine either... we can all instantly think of a few other recent examples.>

Clearly, Israel as a state isn't going away. They have worked hard and made the desert bloom. They're ready to fight to the death to keep it. Pushed to the edge, they've got nukes and I think they'd use them. So, as I said upthread, one would think the Arabs would have learned to quit poking them with the "violence stick".

Clearly, the Palestinians deserve the same opportunity the Israelis got. A state of their own and aid to get it going. They'll have the advantage on not being instantly assaulted by five different armies on the declaration of their statehood, too. It may need UN Peacekeepers again on the border for a while, but I'd wager that would be to keep all the would-be moron Arab "martyrs" out of Israel, not to keep Israel out of a legitimate Palestinian state that truly renounced violence..


BUT... dwelling upon who owned what land  over the last 3000 years has got them nowhere and is totally non-germane to the current situation.

They HAVE to learn to live together or they'd better be ready to all die together.

So, there's been Hebrew civilization around Israel since around -2500 BCE.

You tell me "who owns the land" ... then tell me what difference it makes NOW, please.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Steven

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2002, 09:22:55 PM »
<<>>  -Illo

Someone is in serious need of an economics course or two.  Just remember, "cheap" and "poor" are relative.  No one is being chained to the sneaker table as per demands of the USA and please show me if these "slaves" have an opportunity cost which exceeds what they earn in the sneaker factories and then you'll have a case.  Yes, this relationship benefits the USA but it also benefits these poor people as well and as an end-result, the economic pie increases for all.  There is an equilibrium, but the cheaper those sneakers are, the more sneakers we can actually purchase and thus more "slaves" are employed to make the sneakers while their earnings also increase.  I guess you'd have them do what... sell bananas on the street corner?  Outside monies coming in is a VERY good thing for these or any people.  Disposible income also gets spent and sometimes that goes for items made outside the USA as well as in the USA.

<<>>
I respect anyone who can speak and write more than one language.  I'm really sad you think we deserved such an attack.

Offline bashwolf

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2002, 09:30:15 PM »
Toads,

Dont get me started with British they went all over the World splitting nations for exmple Pakistan was created back in early 50's know India and Pakistan at it (both have nukes).  They left all the mess including  the sitatuon in middle east.  

Oh I wish i was in another world that is much more peacefull than the one we Live in :(

Peace in middle East :)

Offline weazel

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A couple of well placed H-bombs would solve the whole problem.
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2002, 09:46:44 PM »
Nuke em both.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2002, 10:00:36 PM »
Hi illo!

No need to apologize for your 'poor' english.. in fact it is quite good!

I am so very sorry I cannot tell you in your own language what a fool you are..

Quote
What is being strong as a nation? Enslaving others?


... and I am at a loss for words... in any language. But hell, that ain't ever stopped us ugly americans in the past has it?

Son.. look to the east.. there's where your former enslavers reside. Oh.. wait, sorry I forgot, those guys were yer 'pals' for awile wern't they? Around the time they were killin off millions of 'dissenters' and such, wasn't it? Then again, in 1948, you fellas hopped right into the soviet tent, didn't yah? And not a shot fired that time as I recall. Yah just folded up like a weak lil puppet, and bowed to your new masters.

Possibly I have your ancestors mixed up... or do you?  Never mind.. don't mind me, just go right on thinkin the USA's policy is to enslave your world.

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2002, 10:11:39 PM »
Bashwolf,

The English aren't the issue.

You were telling us the Jews don't "own the land".

I think there's some evidence that there was Early Hebrew civilization in the Israel area around -2500 BCE.

So who has the truest claim to the land?

What's your answer?


My answer is: It doesn't matter.

Israel is there now and they aren't leaving.

Palestine is there now and they deserve their own state.

The two are going to have to learn to live togther.. and they're not doing very well at it... either one of them.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline easymo

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« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2002, 11:14:58 PM »
The one constant we have always been able to depend on, from the Europeans. Is jalousie.  Well, pal we are rich and powerful. And we will grow even more so as time gos by.

  I was sent to my war on a commercial airliner. Think about that. a nation so wealthy they can afford to ship PFC,s around on commercial flights.

  The message here is a simple one. DONT diddly WITH US.

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2002, 12:24:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ispar
What do I risk easymo? As yet, not my life. I do risk my pride. I risk being misjudged my those that presume to know more of what is right than I. I risk being called a coward, though I have said REPEATEDLY that death is of no issue. I will die for my beliefs, which means that I will NOT die with a gun in my hand, fighting for something that I believe to be wrong. I risk the grinding into the dirt of my character and my spirit, simply because I WILL NOT STAND for something that I percieve as an injustice. I risk the devaluation of my morals by people who have no knowledge of myself, and no respect for my ideals, and no conception of my understanding of the sacrifices that have allowed me to be what I am today.

No, it isn't much yet easymo. It hasn't been my life. It hasn't been my family or home, but those risks are growing everyday. You and other vets have been through hell and earth and then back again, and I respect that immensely because I have no conception of what hell really is. I am much younger than you are. If I wanted to call up and volunteer my services, I would be told to come back in a year for being too young! There are things that I can do though.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't thank whatever it is that is responsible for me being an American and free to determine my own values and my own beliefs. Spit on those that have come before? Hardly! Sacrifices have been made by many, many more than just those with the guns. How many battles did Benjamin Franklin fight? What about Martin Luther King, Jr.? How many people did MLK have to kill to earn the respect that his name commands today? Finally, tell me how an unwillingness to kill for my country constitutes a lack of love for my country, an unwillingness to do the right thing, a hatred for my fellow Americans, my forefathers, and tell me how all this constitutes a hatred for my FELLOW MAN!?

There is a lot ahead of me, and a lot that I will do to try and help my country, and much that I wish to do to serve not just Americans but those that I have to share the world with.

Where did this start, anyway? Oh, that's right. For any man to make war upon any other man is unjust, and so I UTTERLY reject it. I don't care if you are American, French, German, Lebanese, Iraqi, or green - you put that diddlying sword DOWN.  My attitide does not allow for trampling or somehow disregarding and spitting on those that have fought and gone before. I am not passive, I am actively peaceful. Confrontations happen, yes. But they should never be solved through violent conflict.

I will say it again. I love this place. I will do whatever I can to make this nation a better place. I wish, when the opportunity comes, to go to where I can help, be it Iraq, Argentina, Colombia, or wherever. I will NOT go anywhere with a gun in my hands, because that is not what is needed. Good things can be done for people and for America without the use of military power and without support of military power. I am very sorry if you still choose to continue fulfilling this apparent deep psychological need to establish superiority. You certainly don't seem to be comprehending any of what I have said. That's just too bad for me, I suppose. Obviously, you are simply too wrapped up in your own illusions to truly read and understand me. Either that or you just don't care. It's too late now though, because this entire message is completely incomprehensible, I'm willing to bet. Tsk tsk, how sad this is.


  The entire problem here is the number of "I's" and "Me's".  Your part of a society ispar.  No matter how much you try and justify a pacifist attitude, it's still a matter of you expecting to benefit from the blood of others.  Even THAT is a moot point because you know well that the day you decide to become a draft dodger, you become a criminal and you WOULD be denied those benefits.  I don't care either way whether you would volunteer to participate or not, I respect your decisions and I'm IN the military, however when it becomes a requirement set forth by law, then your just another criminal... and you've lost LOTS of rights and gained nothing more than contempt from me, not that it matters.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2002, 12:30:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by illo


I wasn't very suprised about WTC incidence. I knew something alike was coming. That was simply because there were enough people who were totally pissed off about actions of US government. Think about it....is violence really the way to go, it all comes back to you. Don't you cry then?



illo
  Please do this.  Find a bar where Marines from the U.S. Embassy hang out off duty and please share your thoughts...please.  They'll help you understand a few of your questions.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2002, 12:32:48 AM by Tumor »
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2002, 12:39:16 AM »
There are courageous pasifists.  They've gone to the west bank and risking the same bullets and bombs that the soldiers and civilians there are risking.  They are being wound, I not sure if any have died yet.  They are not safe at home posting on this bbs.


Anywho.


WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Monday linked Iran, Iraq and Syria to the terror attacks on Israel, accusing the three nations of "inspiring and financing a culture of political murder and suicide bombing."

At the Pentagon, Rumsfeld offered a searing indictment of Iran, Iraq and Syria as supporters of a terrorist "war on civilization."

Whee!
:(

Offline illo

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2002, 04:15:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor


illo
  Please do this.  Find a bar where Marines from the U.S. Embassy hang out off duty and please share your thoughts...please.  They'll help you understand a few of your questions.


I have no doubt about that. :D

Offline Nashwan

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2002, 05:07:04 AM »
Quote
Dont get me started with British they went all over the World splitting nations for exmple Pakistan was created back in early 50's know India and Pakistan at it (both have nukes). They left all the mess including the sitatuon in middle east.

Splitting groups of people who hate each other up into seperate countries is better than having them live together.

It's the unresolved issue of who controls Kashmir and the number of Moslems living in India, and the Hindu nationalists who hate the Moslems, that cause problems between India and Pakistan. Having the two as one country would make things much worse, as the recent wave of killings between Moslems and Hindus within India demonstrate.

Likewise the Israel Palestinian problem. The fact that Israel has been actively settling the West Bank and Gaza means the people are intermingled, the Israelis can't leave, the Palestinians can't have a homeland, and there can't be peace until there is a clear seperation between them.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2002, 05:16:27 AM »
Tumor does U.S have a embassy in Libya, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria or Somalia and if yes how brave would those marines be in a bar in those countries?
You think they would like to teach couple lessons there too?

Offline Staga

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« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2002, 05:20:16 AM »
btw any news about those five palestinian police men who were found in Ramallah? I heard they were propably shot when they were on their knees....

Edit:
"Israeli soldiers shot dead five Palestinian policemen in cold blood in Ramallah, Palestinians said.

Israeli soldiers shot dead five Palestinian policemen in cold blood in Ramallah, Palestinians said. They said the policemen were found on Saturday, after Israeli tanks had rolled into the West Bank city and smashed into the headquarters of the Palestinian President, Yasser Arafat.

Israel was also racked by more violence, with suicide bombings in Haifa and Tel Aviv, a police sergeant killed stopping two would-be attackers from entering the country, and Lebanese guerillas firing mortar rounds at a border military outpost.

If there had been any hope that the latest bloodletting would give either side pause, that vanished when Israelis and Palestinians pointed to the day's events as a reason to strengthen their resolve and press forward with the fight.

Palestinian sources said yesterday that Israel had ordered the evacuation of all Palestinian security offices, compounds and posts in the Gaza Strip.

"It seems that a wide operation in the Gaza Strip is imminent, both from the air and ground," a source said.

Employees of international aid organisations had reportedly been asked to leave Gaza.

Palestinian officials said four security officers had been shot dead yesterday at a social club in southern Ramallah that Israeli forces took over .

The Palestinian Red Crescent said Israel was preventing ambulances from evacuating Palestinians killed and wounded by Israeli gunfire in the streets of Ramallah. "Each time the ambulances have been stopped by soldiers, who have threatened our crews with guns," a Red Crescent spokesman said.

A senior Palestinian negotiator, Hassan Asfour, said the five policemen found on Saturday had been "executed in cold blood. This is a clear example of the collective execution policy adopted by the Israeli Government against the Palestinian people."

An Israeli Army spokesman said soldiers entered the building after Palestinians opened fire from inside and threw a grenade at the force outside.

"There was an exchange of fire at close range, and as a result the gunmen were killed and two soldiers moderately wounded."

Residents said the policemen's bodies had been found in a building that Israeli troops seized on Friday. A Palestinian cameraman who filmed the policemen said he saw no weapons on them, suggesting that they were unarmed or that Israeli soldiers had taken their arms away.

In the United States, President George Bush pointedly did not add his imprimatur to a resolution the United Nations Security Council passed early on Saturday - and which the US supported - calling on Israel to withdraw its troops from Mr Arafat's compound.

"I fully understand Israel's need to defend herself; I respect that," Mr Bush said. "As she does so, I urge that their government, the Israeli Government, makes sure that there is a path to peace as she secures her homeland."

In Israel, the anger was palpable at the scene of the Tel Aviv suicide bombing, the third in four days. "Kill Arafat," people chanted near the charred remains of My Coffee Shop, a popular gathering spot on Allenby Street.


The cafe was packed when a young man entered and set off his bomb, killing himself and injuring 32, five of them critically.

The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which is affiliated with Mr Arafat's Fatah movement, claimed responsibility.

The attack came even as Israeli tanks and soldiers had spent a day searching and arresting Palestinian men inside Ramallah. The message to Israel seemed clear: its military cannot stop militants from entering the country, almost at will.

Israel vowed to press even harder. A call-up of 20,000 reservists, the largest mobilisation since Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, was expected to continue yesterday.

Israel also sent tanks back into the West Bank village of Beit Jala after Palestinians fired a mortar shell into Gilo, a Jewish settlement on the outskirts of Jerusalem. No-one was injured in the attack on Gilo."
----------------------------------------------
I would like to have more info about this one but as you know Israel doesn't let news.groups or photographers in Ramallah. Guess they don't want world to see what's happening there.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2002, 05:49:01 AM by Staga »

Offline Staga

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2002, 05:35:18 AM »
Quote from BBC:
"Several British protesters are acting as "human shields" against possible Israeli military action in the Palestinian territories.
The protesters entered several Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank - from where several suicide bombers have hailed - on Monday night.

They made the move hours after nine foreign activists, four of them Britons, were injured when Israeli soldiers opened fire at a peace march near Bethlehem."

Easy targets eh ?


Doesn't look too good:
OIC: Israel dragging mid-east into war
Doesn't look too good; Part Deux:
Arab countries bring Saddam back into fold
« Last Edit: April 03, 2002, 05:58:52 AM by Staga »