Author Topic: Fuse delay for bombs (Read 1986 times)

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #45 on:** August 08, 2002, 02:46:00 PM »

Umm... you brought the "the other sim is getting it" here revvin... not me.

Though it is ironic that they seem to be facing the same issues discussed in this thread... that few seem willing to acknowledge...

Just what happens to the bomb after it hits the ground?

AKDejaVu

Revvin · « **Reply #46 on:** August 08, 2002, 04:22:39 PM »

I bought it up because it was relevant to the subject and a punt for Majors who asked for the same thing in the general forum today, what I did'nt do was turn it into an oppurtunity at a cheap shot and to flail the HTC pom poms round...but then you do the job so well..wait a sec what's that? is that the Targetware moderators calling?

It's not our place to wonder how it can be done but to ask for the feature in the first place. If we used your logic of not doing something because we're not sure how it can be done (and lets face it HT is one of the best coders around) then perhaps when HT thought of creating WB and AH he might have thought 'ah damn how am I going to make the planes fly' 'how will the engines work' 'what happens when the planes touch the ground' if he had used your logic then perhaps we'd be playing another programmers version of Tetris as a flight sim would have been too much trouble

BenDover · « **Reply #47 on:** August 08, 2002, 04:39:02 PM »

coding is hard

oh yeah, add fuse delay

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #48 on:** August 08, 2002, 05:01:42 PM »

Revvin...

"seems like they will be getting fuse delays over in that 'other' online sim why not Aces High?"

"This is not about 'because another sim is getting it'"

Hello?

As for the dig.. it wasn't on iEN. It was on Hotseat and his ability to present any delay as if it were dale's fault. And I don't recall going over to iEN to point this out. I do, however, commend your hypocricy with the targetware refference.

You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that the "why we aren't getting it right away..." is answered even in Target's post.

There are plenty of cool things from WW2 and I'd like to see all of them in the game. Where would you prioritize this particular feature? How much would you use it? What would you like HTC to set asside?

Personally... I'd still like to see more aircraft. I'd also like to see a rework on the strat system and ALOT of effort put into the new theater idea. I'd put "fuse delay" pretty close to the bottom... for when they run out of ideas.

AKDejaVu

gatso · « **Reply #49 on:** August 08, 2002, 05:14:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKDejaUu
BTW.. any idea how long it takes for a bomb (or anything) to drop 500 feet?

I don't think anyone answered this yet...

3.9 seconds neglecting drag.

I've no problem with bombs 'digging in' to the point they hit on the ground. Yes I know they skip if dropped over shallow trajectories but this is a game after all.

Gatso

Revvin · « **Reply #50 on:** August 08, 2002, 05:17:06 PM »

Quote

You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that the "why we aren't getting it right away..." is answered even in Target's post.

And they acknowledge they are looking into it which would indicate they have already given it thought and will eventually get round to doing it. If we can put men on the moon is coding a bomb that bounces so hard to do? planes skip across the terrain so there's a start. I'm not saying it's easy but you are trying to make out like HTC have to re-invent the wheel to get this to work, perhaps I have a little more faith in HT's ability to code.

Quote

There are plenty of cool things from WW2 and I'd like to see all of them in the game. Where would you prioritize this particular feature? How much would you use it?

Quite often as would others it seems from the replies here and elsewhere

Quote

Personally... I'd still like to see more aircraft. I'd also like to see a rework on the strat system and ALOT of effort put into the new theater idea. I'd put "fuse delay" pretty close to the bottom... for when they run out of ideas.

So show me anywhere in this thread or anywhere else where I have stated this feature should take priority over everything else..go on show me. I'd like to see more strat and planes too but it would be nice to know this would make the list somewhere.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #51 on:** August 08, 2002, 05:28:07 PM »

Ah... finally revvin...

Quote

And they acknowledge they are looking into it which would indicate they have already given it thought and will eventually get round to doing it.

One thing you may have missed was the refference to dale's code.

Seems to me that HiTech and gang have also given it some thought. So why this thread? I'm pretty sure HTC has read a portion of this thread and the idea of Fuse Delay has thusly been a part of their consideration. Maybe they could come here and say "we'll get to it someday"?

Quote

So show me anywhere in this thread or anywhere else where I have stated this feature should take priority over everything else..go on show me.

I'd like you to show me where I said you did first. You bumped this thread and continue to defend the point. That says you put some priority on the feature. Either that or you are unable to let it go.

Either way... doesn't really matter.

AKDejaVu

gatso · « **Reply #52 on:** August 08, 2002, 05:37:31 PM »

OK, a bomb dropped from 50ft takes 1.24s to hit the deck. I don't know much about WW2 fuzing mechanisms. I do know that the Argentinians had problems with bomb fusing during the Falklands.

The problem being that there was an air screw that turned on a thread that pushed the detonator into the explosive, if it didn't travel far enough it didn't go off. Hence the high proportion of bombs that didn't explode even if they hit.

Is this the same for WW2 bombs? I'm guessing it's similar at least. So why not make it so the bombs have to fly through the air for X amount of seconds before they will detonate, and then add a user set delay (fuze) before they go off.

Secondly. Bomb skipping, what exactly is the problem? Are people unhappy that bombs that could in real life skip or bounce over the ground and hit stuff will not? I personally would'nt mind if you don't hit anything directly it does'nt go off, if you do hit something directly it sits there for X (user set) seconds and then goes off. Or even not bother with bomb bouncing and just let it go off X seconds in the first place it hit.

What exactly are people against? (AKDejaVu I'm looking at you

)

Gatso

Wotan · « **Reply #53 on:** August 08, 2002, 05:54:56 PM »

you have to model what happens to the bomb once it hits the ground........

Does it bounce around until it totally bleeds or embeds itself in the terrain or object.

Its not a simple matter of saying ok add 11sec until it blows up.

Now bombs detonate when the collide with the terrain or object or they just "disappear" it they arent armed.

I think it would great to have a "delay" modelled and I dont think it would slow down planes being introduced. Dont nate and superfly model. HT is the coder.

But get the mission arena working

btw Revvin punted this thread because there was another thread asking for the exact samething. I dont think that it necessarily means "do it now"

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #54 on:** August 08, 2002, 05:57:05 PM »

Gatso,

The time required to arm is already there.

The delay after that should (even if implimented) not be user configurable... but rather an armament option at the hangar. I don't even know of many modern fuses that have fusing time delays programable by the pilot.

As for the skipping... its "simply" a case of programming for it since the game does not allow for it right now. Of course, skipping bombs and fuse delay are kinda two different things. Skipping usually rellied on contact fuses to detonate the device.

So... it boils down to knowing just exactly what you are asking for.

What exactly do you want the bomb to do when you release it and it has a delayed fuze?

AKDejaVu

-ammo- · « **Reply #55 on:** August 08, 2002, 06:07:31 PM »

Back to the topic. Dejavu is on target with alot of points. Due to my profession, I have watched a few bomb drops. I also understand the theory behind the two types of delays (time to arm, and detonation delay) with mechanical fuzes (neither of which is modeled in AH)

Time to arm is just that, when the bomb is released a wire is pulled from the vane on the fuze. The setting is set in seconds. Depending on the type of mission (ie alt of drop, angle of attack, whether its a level attack or not) the desired setting is set.

Delays in detonation are used for a variety of targets. Underground bunkers, tunnels, large buildings, hardened AC shelters are all good candidates for some type of detobnation delay. The idea is for the bomb to penetrate deep into the heart of the target before exploding, causing more damage. Bomb design has alot to do with the effectiveness of this type of attack. Most bombs simply crush themselves upon impact and will not go deep enough for the deeper bunkers. We use bombs like the BLU-29 and the GBU-28 which are steel adn with thich sleek nose cones to get deep in todays times. (even with them delays will never be seen more than 2 seconds, 11 seconds is impractical. Most delays are set at much less than a second for all practical purposes).

Once in Avon Park, Fla, I watched several F-16's from Homestead AFB drop dummy 500 pounders from a distance. I witnessed a bomb enter the ground and then exit terra firma within a seconds timeframe more than 100 feet from impact point. I was thoroughly impressed. I also saw firsthand what our little 25 lb steel practice bombs could do. Clean through an old armored troop transport left there as a target.

The thing that would be usefull in AH would be to model retarded delivery bombs. that would allow you to get away from the target, and would also require some finesse on te part of the pilot.

Revvin · « **Reply #56 on:** August 08, 2002, 06:15:48 PM »

Quote

One thing you may have missed was the refference to dale's code.

I saw it but did'nt feel the need like you did to whip out the HTC pom poms and doyour little jig

Quote

Seems to me that HiTech and gang have also given it some thought. So why this thread? I'm pretty sure HTC has read a portion of this thread and the idea of Fuse Delay has thusly been a part of their consideration. Maybe they could come here and say "we'll get to it someday"?

I had not seen a post previous to this askign for it and if it has made them consider it then that was the whole point of the thread!

to put forward an idea.

Quote

I'd like you to show me where I said you did first

good grief! how old are you! "no you first!..no you!..no I said it first!"

My comment was merely pointing out I did not think it was a priority either which is what you seemed to imply which you re-iterate later in the thread.

Quote

So... it boils down to knowing just exactly what you are asking for.

We know what we want it is you that cannot seem to grasp it

Quote

You bumped this thread and continue to defend the point. That says you put some priority on the feature.

Then show me where I have said it should have pritority? It was bumped so a friend who asked for the same thing elsewhere could find the post easier its as simple as that. If it was such a priority for me I would have replied sooner and not almost 4 months later

-ammo- · « **Reply #57 on:** August 08, 2002, 06:26:10 PM »

This turned from a decent discussion into a pissing match.

gatso · « **Reply #58 on:** August 08, 2002, 08:19:16 PM »

Same thoughts ammo, thats why tried to get it back to what people want. Deja, time to arm isn't here. Going back on some old posts it's distance to arm, the bomb has to travel 1000ft before it will explode. It's nothing to do with time at all.

I'm interested in exactly how WW2 arming mechanisms/fuses worked, I'm pretty sure they didn't have GBU's or BLU's in WW2

. And I would like some HARD information about detonators and fuses (2 seperate things) instead of the pissing match that Revvin and Deja seem to have going on.

Hopefully this will indicate an obvious way forward once we have this information.

Gatso

-ammo- · « **Reply #59 on:** August 08, 2002, 09:14:45 PM »

cc gatso, heres a link that will give you lots of info. Plenty more out there. The premier mechanical fuze for years in the USAF has been teh M904 and M905. Both are old designs, and not far off from what WW2 ordinance used. Time to arm is correct, no distance. Fuze setting was in seconds. Once it left the AC, the vane spun many rev's (depending on setting by the ord guy) before the explosive train in the fuze was aligned and ready to detonate on impact, or if it had a delay element installed then the suybsequent detonation after impact.

http://www.ordnance.org/fuzes.htm