Author Topic: What's The Rook Problem?  (Read 1667 times)

Offline Beegerite

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2002, 11:41:34 AM »
You are Coooooorrrrrrect!  It would take almost real world training tactics.  Who here would be willing to put in the hours necessary to develop that kind of discipline?  Based on experience, not many but it's true if you're the kind of guy who is absolutely obcessed with being able to consistently pull off victories, you're going to have to find others willing to "join the air force and act as such"  Otherwise, you're going to be one frustrated puppy.  Let's not fool ourselves, it only takes one guy not to give us a "little cooperation" and we go off the deep end accusing the entire nation of not working together etc. etc.  I know for a fact that during RJO nights we work quite nicely together and the results are evident.  Amazingly, the very next day you're very likely to read a post from someone who didn't like what the RJO squads were up to.  Bottom line.  Individuals will fly like individuals and there is absolutely nothing, nada, zilch that we can do about it.  If you're a latent Hap Arnold, find yourself a Curtis LeMay and form a squad of like minded invidividuals.
Beeg

Quote
Originally posted by Preon1
Beeg, real world military tactics takes daily training.  It takes expertise.  That's why the USAF practices war and doctrine even if there's no war to fight.  Pulling off a controlled air campaign is impossible given our constraints.  The best we can hope for is a little cooperation, good communication, a few really good sticks in the formation.

Offline Otto

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2002, 12:12:42 PM »
"What's the Rook problem...?"

Too many years of close realations with Sheep.  It takes a toll.....

Offline Widewing

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2002, 12:29:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Beegerite
You are Coooooorrrrrrect!  It would take almost real world training tactics.  Who here would be willing to put in the hours necessary to develop that kind of discipline?  Based on experience, not many but it's true if you're the kind of guy who is absolutely obcessed with being able to consistently pull off victories, you're going to have to find others willing to "join the air force and act as such"  Otherwise, you're going to be one frustrated puppy.  Let's not fool ourselves, it only takes one guy not to give us a "little cooperation" and we go off the deep end accusing the entire nation of not working together etc. etc.  I know for a fact that during RJO nights we work quite nicely together and the results are evident.  Amazingly, the very next day you're very likely to read a post from someone who didn't like what the RJO squads were up to.  Bottom line.  Individuals will fly like individuals and there is absolutely nothing, nada, zilch that we can do about it.  If you're a latent Hap Arnold, find yourself a Curtis LeMay and form a squad of like minded invidividuals.
Beeg

 


Here's my view: If you wish to do your own thing, be my guest. However, if you wish to join in on field captures and organized multiple squad missions, then you should cooperate. Otherwise, please don't join us. When you get bored and leave, we have a gap that can't be readily filled. This is why I prefer to have squads assign goons to pilots known to be reliable. There's nothing more aggrevating than working you tulips off to cap a field and kill a city, only to find that the guy expected to bring the goon is tooling around in a Spitfire, vulching.

As to training like the military does, we can do that. However, I would guess that there are only a handful of us who have actually military flying experience, and can relate the training methods. I have been out of the military since 1979, so the training I received is probably different than current doctrine, and certainly different from actual WWII doctrine, in details at least.

Our squad will probably be organizing training nights specifically to prepare new members and to practice those skills that we individually know need attention. Likewise, it's important to train people how to think in a combat situation. This is certainly not second-nature, but is essential. Decision making skills are also important. Normally one learns this through mistakes. If we can allow those mistakes to occur in a safe environment, pilots learn without losing confidence. I believe that if several squads worked together in this, the overall performance of the Rooks would improve. And, if this isn't for you, no problem. It's your nickel, so to speak.

I also believe that the squads should make an effort to enforce their charter rules, within the bounds of reason and accomodation to the fact that not everyone can be there, nor do they always have the time to participate in long duration exercises and/or missions.

Success breeds success. If other Rooks see positive results of concerted squad cooperation, they may decide that they wish to participate too. The die hard furballers have a role too. Usually, they keep a like number of the enemy occupied. Therefore, we should consider that within the whole picture before casigating them for what they correctly believe is their right. However, I have no reservations about raising hell with those who do join in, but elect to pursue personal goals after committing to a mission or operation. You really can't have it both ways without incurring the anger of those who were depending upon you.

Yeah, the self appointed generals can be a pain in the ass, but so can the self-designated admirals.... But, that's a different post.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Masherbrum

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2002, 12:33:56 PM »
And you would know this how OTTO?  You started out as a Rook didn't you?   It's ok, we haven't done that since you left!
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Offline Grimm

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2002, 12:34:17 PM »
I will take the blame.....  Its my fault :)

As I think FD and Dawg said... Must be RJO Time......  

Circle the wagons boys...

Offline Apache

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2002, 12:58:14 PM »
Allow a furballer to throw in here.

Most likely it is my interpretation instead of the actual intent, but it seems that some use the term "furballer" as a label akin to a leper.

Let me state, some of the best virtual sim pilots I've known thru the years are and were "furballers".

I'm a furballer. I enjoy that the most. I went thru the strat phase but eventually came back to simple air to air combat.

We are mindful of strat, even as transparent as it may seem, however, we don't usually engage in base capture for base capture sake.

We do play a role IMHO. Who better to engage defenders on a bar-cap mission to spoil your capture than a furballer?

Offline boxboy28

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Nazgul and Ghost joint ops (re: widewing)
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2002, 01:59:09 PM »
:cool:
Any time the Ghost want to fly any kinda Joint Ops mission the know where to find the NAZGUL.!!!!!!!!
we're always ready and willing to assist!!!!!



box
:D
^"^Nazgul^"^    fly with the undead!
Jaxxo got nice tata's  and Lyric is Andre the giant with blond hair!

Offline boxboy28

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Nazgul and Ghost joint ops (re: widewing)
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2002, 02:26:01 PM »
:cool:
Any time the Ghost want to fly any kinda Joint Ops mission the know where to find the NAZGUL.!!!!!!!!
we're always ready and willing to assist!!!!!



box
:D
^"^Nazgul^"^    fly with the undead!
Jaxxo got nice tata's  and Lyric is Andre the giant with blond hair!

Offline Don

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2002, 02:45:18 PM »
>>Too many years of close realations with Sheep. It takes a toll.....<<

Wrong! There are just so many ways of cooking sheep, then you get tired of it. Some of us are looking to expand our culinary experience and add something different to our menu. Them damn navy ships are notorious for having the best food on em but, some dweebs keep hidin em :rolleyes:
The Nitwits are into stealing our bases cuz they like sheep for wholy unnatural reasons :confused:  (beats the hell outta me).
And the bishits want all the bases cuz they wanna pimp the sheep off to the Nitwits, and sell the sheep to Rooks (by the pound on the hoof).

Offline Otto

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2002, 03:47:48 PM »
"And you would know this how OTTO? You started out as a Rook didn't you? It's ok, we haven't done that since you left!"

Aaaaaah!   They said they would burn my files....!!!

Offline Beegerite

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2002, 07:47:11 PM »
Point well taken Popeye.  It is not fun in the sense we understand it but it is fun as in the absence of frustration.  What I keep hearing is a lot of people saying "do it my way" instead of just reflecting on the simple fact I'm trying to put forth.  This is a simulation of fighter combat.  If you don't utilize the real world tactics used by succesful air forces you don't have squat.   Would anyone here play a football game and not block, tackle or punt?  Then how can we play a war simulation without at bare minimum perfecting wingman tactics?  To me there is no way to play this game to win without using these tactics but at the same time recognizing that not everybody here wants to play my game.  Some people just want to furball.  More power to them.  Leave them alone.  I think it was Widewing either previously or in a following post that said something to the effect that the furballers even themselves out.  Let's quit taking the inventory of all the Rooks at large and attempt to identify those that agree on working together and will become willing to improve on the necessary skills e.g. wing flying, mission planning and execution etc.  These are the guys we have to get together with.
Beeg

Quote
Originally posted by popeye
Beeg,

Do this! Think of every war movie you've ever seen. Think about everything you know about real world fighter tactics. Think of every word that describes these things.

Are any of those words, "fun"?

Offline Beegerite

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2002, 08:18:56 PM »
Wide, may I call you Wide? :D

The simplest kind of combat tactic is to fly with a wingman.  Somewhere in "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering" there is a quote from some real life super ace to the effect that "a single man is a liability"  At this the simplest level is where we fail.  If we can't develop consistent team work with one individual, how are we going to do it with a squad or our countrymen.  As I said in a previous post, I tried to force this issue in our squadron by setting the rule down that you must always fly with a wingman and return to base for yours or meet up with another squad mate in case of death or serious accident.   This isn't an oppressive rule and most people would probably agree with it and in fact in our case we had to swear a blood oath that we  would abide by the charter and other rules of similar ilk.  Well, they weren't followed.  Why?  Here are some observations.  You covered somebody one sortee and he didn't reciprocate the next.  You saw a lone enemy buff and got buck fever, the cold sweats and palpitations and went off after it leaving your flight leader to fend off 2 nikkis all by himself.  You were too busy or anxious to get into the game to be able to dedicate even one hour per week to practicing specifically with your wingman and working on being able to fly wing with other squad members.  

Another rule I dreamed up was "Rookland comes first", that's why we're RRR.  Just the other night I found myself in the center island while the main island was under attack.  Why?  Forgot our focus and this happens quite a bit e.g. you take off on a JABO mission loaded with bombs and rockets and upon seeing a distant enemy you drop ordance and attack a Nikki in your ME110 totally forgetting about your intended target and the fact that the Nikki is going to kill you.  You should have run like hell for your target.  Got that job done and then and only then play footsies with a Nikki.  Doing any of the aforementioned things in real life combat would earn you a one way ticket to the firing squad.   Where's our firing squad?  

Last but not least is the leadership role you mentioned.  I dreamed up rotating battle leadership on a daily basis to keep our squadron from being run by any one individual.  Everybody gets an equal time to play Napoleon.  Guess what?  Nobody ever remembers or seems to be interested in knowing whose turn it is to run the show.

Guess it is a game.
 
Beeg

Quote
Originally posted by Widewing


Here's my view: If you wish to do your own thing, be my guest. However, if you wish to join in on field captures and organized multiple squad missions, then you should cooperate. Otherwise, please don't join us. When you get bored and leave, we have a gap that can't be readily filled. This is why I prefer to have squads assign goons to pilots known to be reliable. There's nothing more aggrevating than working you tulips off to cap a field and kill a city, only to find that the guy expected to bring the goon is tooling around in a Spitfire, vulching.

As to training like the military does, we can do that. However, I would guess that there are only a handful of us who have actually military flying experience, and can relate the training methods. I have been out of the military since 1979, so the training I received is probably different than current doctrine, and certainly different from actual WWII doctrine, in details at least.

Our squad will probably be organizing training nights specifically to prepare new members and to practice those skills that we individually know need attention. Likewise, it's important to train people how to think in a combat situation. This is certainly not second-nature, but is essential. Decision making skills are also important. Normally one learns this through mistakes. If we can allow those mistakes to occur in a safe environment, pilots learn without losing confidence. I believe that if several squads worked together in this, the overall performance of the Rooks would improve. And, if this isn't for you, no problem. It's your nickel, so to speak.

I also believe that the squads should make an effort to enforce their charter rules, within the bounds of reason and accomodation to the fact that not everyone can be there, nor do they always have the time to participate in long duration exercises and/or missions.

Success breeds success. If other Rooks see positive results of concerted squad cooperation, they may decide that they wish to participate too. The die hard furballers have a role too. Usually, they keep a like number of the enemy occupied. Therefore, we should consider that within the whole picture before casigating them for what they correctly believe is their right. However, I have no reservations about raising hell with those who do join in, but elect to pursue personal goals after committing to a mission or operation. You really can't have it both ways without incurring the anger of those who were depending upon you.

Yeah, the self appointed generals can be a pain in the ass, but so can the self-designated admirals.... But, that's a different post.

My regards,

Widewing

Offline pbirmingham

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2002, 12:33:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Don
>>Too many years of close realations with Sheep. It takes a toll.....<<

Wrong! There are just so many ways of cooking sheep, then you get tired of it.  


"Cooking."  Is this some CAF euphemism I never heard back in Flight Sim Brand X?

Offline Kweassa

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2002, 05:02:02 AM »
We lost some good squadrons that used to fly Rooks. They all seem to have joined either the side that needs numbers the least, or the side that has enough tactical mission planners to wipe out 5 frontline fields in US AH prime time. Of course, this is entirley up to those squadrons and not something that can be criticized. However, if there was a time we need squadrons in Rookland, it is now.

 Another thing is, as good as the Rampaging Rooks, JG1 Oesau, Dragonhawks, 412th  and etc are, they lack a lot of manpower compared to some well-known squads of other countries that boast like 8~10 members on-line at prime time. 8~10 people is a enough number to consist a mission all by themselves(they become the tactical 'vanguard' in organized attacks), not to mention a big "core" that draws a lot of other people into organized attacks and defenses. I think the most I've seen on-line in Rook squadrons were about 4~5 people occasionally with the Dragonhawks or the 412th.

 Thus, the Rook Joint Ops was born. There might have been other attempts simular to this one in other countries, but the recently conceived RJO boasted from tme to time one of the most successful forms of organized strategical moves with multiple squadrons.

 But if you think it the other way around, the other countries haven't seen self-organizing movements simular to the RJO within their country because THEY DIDN'T NEED THEM. Why would one need a Joint Ops when a single squadron in a mission can match the numbers of the RJO with multiple squads combined? Thus, RJO can be translated as something born out of desperation in recent Rook events - loss of prestigious pilots, loss of squadrons, severe lack of experienced players and loss of overall numbers.. etc etc.

 The RJO kicks into action when multiple squadrons are on-line in the Rook ranks with sufficient numbers, too. In other words, when there aren't many squads around in Rooks, no matter how 'equal' the number is, the gangbang heaps down on us, because it is so easy to shoot down Rooks like shooting a fish in a barrel.

 Recently I've noticed a lot of names that I first saw at the Rooks pop up at either Bish or Knit. A lot of people who were asking "how do you turn the engine on" stuff, or some newbies with a bit of flying experience whom I used to fly with, give a few tips and pointers... or some AW 'refugees(as some one might call them)' who I met at the Rook side, then after a few weeks it turns out they moved to the Bish or Knit. They call their fellow 'refugees' newly introduced to AH to join in that country.

 It's  vicious circle.

 Big squads move out, some old pilots quit, new people stack up at the other countries while the Rooks are suffering shortage of man power. We lose initiative, lose territory and get butts kicked... then the newbies hastily move to the "winning" side which in turn destroys the balance even more. Movements like the RJO, as much as I look upon them with great respect, is nothing but something that delays the inevitable mountain of gangbang which tumble down on us.

 The result is something like this.

 It is one thing when some countries are 'twice' in numbers when there are only about 50~60 people in the MA. Something like this is a totally different matter:

Offline Masherbrum

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What's The Rook Problem?
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2002, 05:12:08 AM »
You guys can post roster pics with the flyers online, all you want.  It doesn't matter.  Anyone can be shot down at any given time by someone.   To sit here and continue to post these and feel sorry doesn't do the Rooks any good!  Stop the complaining and get in the air and turn the tide in our favor.   Last night, there were three MAJOR bombing runs originating from a particular enemy base and after the three were done, the airfield was smoking like an oil-burning diesel.  

WE CAN'T CHANGE PAST, BUT WE CAN IMPROVE THE FUTURE ROOKS!!!!!  All of the complaining Rooks are doing what the opposing forces want you to do, second guess yourselves, hesitate and even play with anger.  All three will cause most or some to not have an edge up there.  

Go NAZGUL and go Rooks
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC