Author Topic: How about a common-sense scoring system  (Read 2350 times)

Offline Widewing

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« on: May 07, 2002, 08:25:05 AM »
Here's several instances that have convinced me that the method of attributing kills is seriously in need of attention.

Last evening I fly to a nearby enemy field and spot a B-17 making a landing approach. I notice that he is trailing white smoke from one engine. I swoop down and attack about 20 degrees off of head-on. The Buff's wing comes off and he crashes about a half mile from the runway. I get an assist.

Later, my squad is attacking another field, I catch a SpitV at the top of his loop, apparently undamaged, and explode him with 20mm fire. I get an assist.

Still later, I attack an La-7, showing no signs of damage, my cannons shoot off his left wing. I get an assist.

Finally, I spot a Dora trailing coolant, as he lines up to land. His engine is still running. Just as he touches down, I explode the 190 with 20mm, while dodging ack. I get an assist.

What's wrong with these examples? In two cases, had I not killed the aircraft, they would have landed successfully, with no one getting a kill credit. In the other two examples, I killed fighters that displayed no visible damage, and were fully capable of destroying any aircraft on which they could bring their guns to bear.

In each case, it is obvious that they had taken some hits along the way. However, nothing even close to fatal.

In the real world, kills would credited to the pilot who actually shot down the enemy, not to someone who merely pinged him at some earlier point.

This current system of assigning kill credit is fundamentally flawed. Kills should be credited to the pilot who makes the enemy aircraft unflyable, period. Whatever happened prior to that is not as important as the final destruction of the enemy. Assigning kills based upon who did the most damage is illogical. Why? Because that aircraft can still drop its bombs, or otherwise kill friendlies until it is actually destroyed.

HTC really needs to address this issue, as it causes a great deal of aggrevation to those who work their butts off, risking being shot down, only to find they receive nothing more than a useless assist. It's especially annoying when it's obvious that the enemy would have landed safely but for the last minute intervention.

Let's have a common-sense kill credit system, that assigns kills  based entirely upon who made the enemy aircraft unflyable. Anyone scoring hits prior to that should get an assist. Anyone scoring hits after, gets nothing (being kill stealing worms anyway).

Can anyone make a decent argument why this should not be the case? Don't offer the argument that "you get as many as you lose", so it all evens out. All that does is prove my point that the system is flawed. It should never be a case of luck or averages. It should depend entirely upon what you did or didn't do, nothing else.

Proximity kills: Dumb. If you don't kill it, you should not get credit. If you die via AI ack, no one should get credit, just limit it to a death, just as if you crashed on your home field.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline RatPenat

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2002, 08:37:25 AM »
I accept ack kills maybe changed.

Proximity kills, yes they may exist like RL. I do a lot manuver kills. You shoot down planes without damegd and get assist, he probably without rudder, flaps, ailerons, gears, elevators, wings or pilot wounded (not only lose oil, fuel or have radiator gone is importat). Someone do it that guy return base damaged and he didn't land yet, he could crash trying to land. Why are you crying for a easy kill?

Offline hblair

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2002, 08:37:30 AM »
I'd rather have new planes, revised cockpits, newer & larger terrains. :)

Offline john9001

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2002, 08:58:05 AM »
i know what you mean, last night i took a quick deflection shot and 1 min later got kill msg, later i got a  good 6 position and shot up the enemy realy bad, i broke off then got a assist.

how about a easy fix, i know it's not perfect......but.
what about 1/2 perk points and 1/2 kill for a assist?
at least that way you get something for your work.

i think the english in WW2 gave out partial kills (1/2,1/3) if more than one plane was involved.

44MAG

Offline AKDejaVu

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2002, 09:08:18 AM »
Its fine how it is.

AKDejaVu

Offline Hortlund

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2002, 09:18:43 AM »
When I shoot down an enemy plane and only get an assist, I note who it was that got the kill, and then I haunt them with 385 Check-6 calls.

That is my policy on assists.

Offline Widewing

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2002, 09:31:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by RatPenat
I accept ack kills maybe changed.

Proximity kills, yes they may exist like RL. I do a lot manuver kills. You shoot down planes without damegd and get assist, he probably without rudder, flaps, ailerons, gears, elevators, wings or pilot wounded (not only lose oil, fuel or have radiator gone is importat). Someone do it that guy return base damaged and he didn't land yet, he could crash trying to land. Why are you crying for a easy kill?


Landing a damaged aircraft is no big deal, with the exception of having your wingtip shot off. I land fighters missing ailerons, or elevators, or rudder or even landing gear all the time. Not a problem for the average pilot. However, I have gotten multiple kills flying aircraft pretty much shot to pieces too. Hell, I've even managed a few kills deadstick when some knuckleheads flew right in front of me. Clearly, a damaged aircraft is still a dangerous aircraft until it's destroyed. You should have noticed that the Dora mentioned in the original post was actually on the runway when I finally closed range. All he had to do was stop to get credit for a "landed" sortie. Well, he stopped, but didn't require his brakes.:D

I'm not looking for easy kills. I'm looking to see that every pilot gets the proper credit for his/her efforts. I asked for decent arguments, your's doesn't come close. If you are satisfied with what I consider a sub-standard system, well, that speaks volumes. Me, I'm never satisfied. It can always be better. Moreover, it will be better as soon as HTC realizes that it's an important issue to their customers, because they respond to their customer's complaints and problems, especially when the complaint is widespread and valid. If I knew they would not consider a complaint, I would be wasting my time wouldn't I?

Hblair, is there any reason why we couldn't have the upgrades you mention AND a common-sense scoring system too? Me, I'm for getting the basics correct first, but I understand your position as well. These maps are getting old fast, and the cockpits are rather "understated". However, there are few things more basic to Aces High than the scoring system. I'd like to see it revised before the emphasis is placed on graphics. As it is, we are getting at least 6 new aircraft in the next release.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline BotaBing

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Well...
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2002, 09:50:59 AM »
Asking for a "common sense" scoring system implies that this one isn't based on "common sense" ~ I have a lot more respect for the designers than to insult them like that. To be fair, it's a lot more accurate to say that the scoring system needs some design changes and fine-tuning.

When a plane terminates it shows an explosion graphic, sometimes, even when it did not in reality explode. That may be one of the things you saw happen.

In general though, I absolutely agree the scoring system needs to be fixed.

#1 No death from hitting a tree with your ground vehicles.

#2 Proximity deaths are important because of the fact that out-maneuvering another pilot may result in his death. I've had numbers of people try to get me, push to hard to stay up with me, and then plummet to their final demise. Due to that fact, I would not want proximity deaths changed. You get some, you lose some ~ but the important part is getting credit for one of the most satisfying kills of all ~ maneuvering deaths.

#3 What SHOULD happen though is that the "whoever hits the ground first" scoring system should be changed. If someone kills you in a Head-On, and crashes 1 minute later, then you should get a kill too, or they should have the kill for you taken away.

#4 Enemy armor who choose to "tower" after they are damaged just dissapear, you dont even get kill credit (if they are anywhere near their field)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2002, 10:24:53 AM by BotaBing »

Offline hitech

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2002, 10:14:42 AM »
Try to implement what you are sugesting widewing, lets say a pilot has both wing tips shot off, one by player a, one by player b. the plane is still flyable and just before landing he crashes. Who gets the kill? Or he has the rudder and elevator shot off by 2 people, who gets the kill.

The way it is now is very easy to understand, the person who puts the most total damage (that being the total of wepon lethality) gets the kill.

Offline nuchpatrick

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2002, 10:24:24 AM »
Wide & Bota,

You both have good ideas.. I for one get pissed b/c I shoot down a a/c only to get the freaking ASSIST!! And theres not a plane in sight..it's freakign cheap but thats how this game is. And I cold heartly agree that we should atleast get a half kill..afterall we did put a few round of our ammo in the bugger to put him out of the sky.

The other is that god forsaken H/O lose kill B.S.  Both planes should go down and you both should get half the credit.. thats the way I see it. Though I dispise H/O's but some would be attackers insist on H/O for a cheap quick kill.. beware I have 8 happy .50 cals waiting.

Offline hblair

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2002, 10:40:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by nuchpatrick
Wide & Bota,

You both have good ideas.. I for one get pissed b/c I shoot down a a/c only to get the freaking ASSIST!! And theres not a plane in sight..it's freakign cheap but thats how this game is. And I cold heartly agree that we should atleast get a half kill..afterall we did put a few round of our ammo in the bugger to put him out of the sky.



Hey slick, what makes you think you didn't shoot down somebody elses kill who was trying to RTB? Is this stuff so hard to figure out? :)

Offline Widewing

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Re: Well...
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2002, 10:52:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BotaBing
Asking for a "common sense" scoring system implies that this one isn't based on "common sense" ~ I have a lot more respect for the designers than to insult them like that. To be fair, it's a lot more accurate to say that the scoring system needs some design changes and fine-tuning.

When a plane terminates it shows an explosion graphic, sometimes, even when it did not in reality explode. That may be one of the things you saw happen.

In general though, I absolutely agree the scoring system needs to be fixed.

#1 No death from hitting a tree with your ground vehicles.

#2 Proximity deaths are important because of the fact that out-maneuvering another pilot may result in his death. I've had numbers of people try to get me, push to hard to stay up with me, and then plummet to their final demise. Due to that fact, I would not want proximity deaths changed. You get some, you lose some ~ but the important part is getting credit for one of the most satisfying kills of all ~ maneuvering deaths.

#3 What SHOULD happen though is that the "whoever hits the ground first" scoring system should be changed. If someone kills you in a Head-On, and crashes 1 minute later, then you should get a kill too, or they should have the kill for you taken away.


Common-sense is frequently the victim of the expiations of programming. I am not implying that the programmers lack common-sense, but that their programming results in a scoring system that that ignores the common-sense realities of air combat scoring.

Proximity kills should never be assigned to a pilot for kills made by AI ack.

Your point on maneuver kills is valid and I agree that this should remain, although no proximity kills should be assigned to aircraft not airborne. In other words, just sitting on the runway, and having an over-zealous enemy auger next to you trying to get a shot is not grounds for a kill credit.

Your second point is also valid. In the real world, pilots gained credit for kills, even if they themselves failed to return to base, as long as the victory was witnessed. A kill is a kill, regardless of who bails out or crashes first. That should be fixed as well.

Thanks for your thoughtful input.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline whels

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2002, 11:21:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Try to implement what you are sugesting widewing, lets say a pilot has both wing tips shot off, one by player a, one by player b. the plane is still flyable and just before landing he crashes. Who gets the kill? Or he has the rudder and elevator shot off by 2 people, who gets the kill.

The way it is now is very easy to understand, the person who puts the most total damage (that being the total of wepon lethality) gets the kill.



Think of the kill/damage model this way.

each plane has a certain # in a damage meter.
say P51 has 300 points of damage , when it reaches
0 it totally blows up.  now in that total u have % chance during
each hit taken of something major happening parts of ur plane. and it depends where ur being hit, the % could be greater for a part in that area to take bad damage.

but for sake of  ur question, p51 has 300 points of damage it can take.  Enemy # 1 come along and hits P51 for 60 points of damage but P51 escapes and tries to RTB, Enemy #2 sees
stricken P51 on rtb, comes down and hits P51 with 59 points of damage but also causes structural failure of wing. P51 crashes giving kill to enemy #1 cause in the way the kills are done, HE done more total damage then #2 did, even though he cause wing failure.


i dont know how HT does the kill award/damage thing, but i just look at like the above. who ever does the most damage point total wise, gets the kill, no matter what parts u see come off.

Whels

Offline AKDejaVu

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How about a common-sense scoring system
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2002, 11:30:34 AM »
Widewing,

I feel no sympathy for you or your argument.  What you present and how you present it are simply unreasonable.

For every assist you mentioned in that sortie... there was an individual that actually put more damage into that aircraft than you... wether visible or not.  That counts for something.

For every aircraft that you "finished off"... you feel you should have been rewarded with a kill.  Fine.  Do you think that will affect to an even greater extent the ammount of kill stealing complaints that you see posted here?  I sure as hell do.

The only way to solve the "fairness" issue is to have a board sit and review each kill and award it apropriately.  A computer game is not going to be able to do that with any sense of fairness.

In leu of that... we go with something that is very simple and something that shows no favoritism.  If you do more damage to a plane.. you get credit for the kill.  If you want credit for a kill... do more damage to the plane.  Very simple.

For every assist you get on a crippled plane... you are just as likely to get a kill on it.  I can't count how many times I've lost a wingtip or an elevator only to be caught trying to limp home to base and being in a no-win situation.  The person that did all the work is not credited... just the vulcher that cleaned up afterwards.  I just can't see that being any more fair.

Leave it as it is.. its simple.. its clear... its concise.

AKDejaVu

Offline BotaBing

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Dont
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2002, 11:47:49 AM »
Dont leave it as it is, there are some blatant obvious bugs that should be fixed, but its just fine tuning imo...

No way that enemy armor should get out of a legitimate kill when they are ditching way away from their hangar, etcx