Author Topic: Unbelievable UBB makes me happy of what we have here...  (Read 1546 times)

Offline weazel

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US Constitution Bill of Rights....
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2002, 04:57:18 AM »
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


What part of that do you not understand?

Quote
Originally posted by Heinkel
Weazel, Free speach isnt guranteed.

You can't yell "Fire" in a crowded movie theater, and you cant Praise the Taliban at a time when they killed 3000 Americans.


"And all you "oh, but we must protect their right to free speech"-morons should take a field trip to Pakistan or something. You might learn a thing or two about the enemy"

I don't live in pakistan......or that little pissant country you reside in either, you should stick to trying to dazzle us with that pathetic legal mumbo jumbo your so fond of rather than showing your ignorance of the US bill of rights.

Offline Hortlund

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Re: US Constitution Bill of Rights....
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2002, 05:25:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by weazel
"And all you "oh, but we must protect their right to free speech"-morons should take a field trip to Pakistan or something. You might learn a thing or two about the enemy"

I don't live in pakistan......or that little pissant country you reside in either, you should stick to trying to dazzle us with that pathetic legal mumbo jumbo your so fond of rather than showing your ignorance of the US bill of rights. [/B]


A bit edgy are we?

Anyway, you keep painting yourself into a corner when you are trying to defend the indefensible. I suspect that's where your frustration comes from. Relax, get a beer, watch a sunset or something.

Offline weazel

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Your legal double-speak fails you this time..
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2002, 06:31:43 AM »
Anyway, you keep painting yourself into a corner when you are trying to defend the indefensible

I see nothing indefensible in my stance regarding the US constitution, it's black and white.

Pathetic legal mumbo jumbo is whats indefensible..., as well as the tool of cowards.

Your type can talk themselves into anything.

Offline Hortlund

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Re: Your legal double-speak fails you this time..
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2002, 06:47:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by weazel

I see nothing indefensible in my stance regarding the US constitution, it's black and white.
[/b]
LOL!!
You know, if that was even remotely true you'd have alot of lawyers and judges without a job in the US. Instead you have the highest nr of lawyers per capita in the world. Could that be an indication that US law is not as uncomplicated as you might think?
Quote

Pathetic legal mumbo jumbo is whats indefensible..., as well as the tool of cowards.
[/b]
So the constitution is black and white, but defending the consitution (a law) is not legal mumbo jumbo? And if the law is the tool of cowards, then what are you advocating?
Quote
Your type can talk themselves into anything.

I know :) Its great when picking up girls.

Offline Sikboy

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Unbelievable UBB makes me happy of what we have here...
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2002, 07:04:52 AM »
I would like to suggest that free speech in their home countries is not one of the big reasons that our enemies have developed this fanaticism. In fact, I would like to suggest that a tightly controlled press within the Arab world has a lot more to do with it. There is no opposition viewpoint in most Arab nations. What little there is is fairly recent in its inception, and comes from places like Qatar, which are not considered by most to be volotile regimes.

Being able to voice opposition to the government line is exaclty why we have free speech in the constitution (as per my limited Constitutional Law experience anyhow). This UBB is not yelling fire in a crowded theater, it is a deluded people spewing retorical bravado on the internet. I for one would much rather have them here in the open, than having secret meetings in some guys basement.  

Hortland, I have a deep respect for you, however I'm affraid that we will have to agree to dissagree on this topic.

-Sikboy
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Offline Krusher

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Re: Your legal double-speak fails you this time..
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2002, 07:41:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by weazel
Anyway, you keep painting yourself into a corner when you are trying to defend the indefensible

I see nothing indefensible in my stance regarding the US constitution, it's black and white.

Pathetic legal mumbo jumbo is whats indefensible..., as well as the tool of cowards.

Your type can talk themselves into anything.



An Act in Addition to the Act, Entitled "An Act for the Punishment of Certain Crimes Against the United States."


SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That if any persons shall unlawfully combine or conspire together, with intent to oppose any measure or measures of the government of the United States, which are or shall be directed by proper authority, or to impede the operation of any law of the United States, or to intimidate or prevent any person holding a place or office in or under the government of the United States, from undertaking, performing or executing his trust or duty, and if any person or persons, with intent as aforesaid, shall counsel, advise or attempt to procure any insurrection, riot, unlawful assembly, or combination, whether such conspiracy, threatening, counsel, advice, or attempt shall have the proposed effect or not, he or they shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor, and on conviction, before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars, and by imprisonment during a term not less than six months nor exceeding five years; and further, at the discretion of the court may be ho]den to find sureties for his good behaviour in such sum, and for such time, as the said court may direct.

SEC. 2. And be it farther enacted, That if any person shall write, print, utter or publish, or shall cause or procure to be written, printed, uttered or published, or shall knowingly and willingly assist or aid in writing, printing, uttering or publishing any false, scandalous and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States, or either house of the Congress of the United States, or the President of the United States, with intent to defame the said government, or either house of the said Congress, or the said President, or to bring them, or either of them, into contempt or disrepute; or to excite against them, or either or any of them, the hatred of the good people of the United States, or to stir up sedition within the United States, or to excite any unlawful combinations therein, for opposing or resisting any law of the United States, or any act of the President of the United States, done in pursuance of any such law, or of the powers in him vested by the constitution of the United States, or to resist, oppose, or defeat any such law or act, or to aid, encourage or abet any hostile designs of any foreign nation against United States, their people or government, then such person, being thereof convicted before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars, and by imprisonment not exceeding two years.

Offline Hortlund

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Unbelievable UBB makes me happy of what we have here...
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2002, 07:43:21 AM »
Sikboy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. However, let me try to explain my point of view before I drop the subject.

Free speech is one of the cornerstones of democracy. If you dont have free speech, you cannot have a democracy, it is as simple as that. It is one of the most fundamental human rights, and it should be safeguarded viligantly.

Somewhere there is a line though, somewhere free speech stops. In most countries this line is pretty far away, i e you can say pretty damn much before you hit that line. I dont know how the situatiuon is in the US because I know very little about US constitutional law. But I would imagine that you too have a line somewhere where free speech stops and instead it turns into treason, foul slander or other criminal acts. My impression is that you also have some very complex issues with various minority's, for example, is it legal to say the N-word (refering to an ethnical group with darger skin complexion than Caucasians) in public? But as I said, this line is very far away, and you are allowed to say pretty damn much, which is good.

At the same time, situations like 9-11 will bring out the best and the worst in people. And if someone wants to cheer over the attacks and how justified they were, perhaps they indeed are protected by the US constitution. Perhaps it is within their right to say stuff like that. Perhaps they have the right to say how much they adore OBL and his thugs. Perhaps they have the right to say how much they hate us in the western world and our way of life. Perhaps they have that right.

To me that doesnt matter. If someone wants to stand up and cheer over the terrorists who butchered thousands of innocent civilians on 9-11, they might have the legal right to do so, but they will instantly become my enemy. I have absolutely zero tolerance, understanding or respect for those people. In fact I hate their guts. Even though all they have done is excercise their constitutional right to say whats on their mind, to express their opinion. I doesnt matter. In my opinion they have choosen sides, and they chose the side of my enemy.

They can all go to Afghanistan for all I care.

Offline Sikboy

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Unbelievable UBB makes me happy of what we have here...
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2002, 07:54:00 AM »
Krusher, you forgot Sect 3 and 4. Four being kind of important I think.

SEC. 4. And be it further enacted, That this act shall continue and be in force until the third day of March, one thousand eight hundred and one, and no longer: Provided, that the expiration of the act shall not prevent or defeat a prosecution and punishment of any offence against the law, during the time it shall be in force.



http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/statutes/sedact.htm

This law was passed and repealed prior to Marbury v Madison (1803) and I don't believe that it would pass the process of Judicial review which was established by that decision.

-Sikboy
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Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2002, 08:02:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
If someone wants to stand up and cheer over the terrorists who butchered thousands of innocent civilians on 9-11, they might have the legal right to do so, but they will instantly become my enemy. I have absolutely zero tolerance, understanding or respect for those people. In fact I hate their guts. Even though all they have done is excercise their constitutional right to say whats on their mind, to express their opinion. I doesnt matter. In my opinion they have choosen sides, and they chose the side of my enemy.

They can all go to Afghanistan for all I care.


Well, we certainly agree here. I go even further and say that those who believe that prior policy of the United States is responsible for the actions being taken against the United States are also my "enemies" But they make those claims until the cows come home.

You are absolutely right, there are limits to free speech. The forementioned "fire" in a crowded theater being one, but more appropriately, assault is not legal. I have free speach, but I can not threaten to beat/kill/hurt someone. I think this is the type of exclusion that people are looking for in order to combat this UBB. And I happen to agree with this. You can go after people who are making threats. Does "I see a Marine :gunicon:" constitute a threat? I'm not sure, that's for actual lawyers to figure out. But my point here, is that individuals on that board are likely guilty of some laws, but the existance of the board is not a violation of the law, so far as I know. Be they my enemies or not.

-Sikboy
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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Krusher

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Unbelievable UBB makes me happy of what we have here...
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2002, 08:46:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
Krusher, you forgot Sect 3 and 4. Four being kind of important I think.
-Sikboy


Not forgotten at all.. I didnt post it on purpose.

sorta like posting a small portion of the bill of rights without putting it context.

You did notice there wasnt any editorial comment supporting one view or the other?

anyhow right or wrong, the sedition act has been used to convict people wayyy after it expired.

Eugene Debs delivered his Statement to the Court to the Federal Court of Cleveland, Ohio on September 18, 1918 after being convicted of violating the Sedition Act, a protective law passed by Congress to promote the war by banning anti-war propaganda and rhetoric. Under this new law many socialists were unjustly persecuted and stripped of their freedom of speech. As an active socialist, Debs became concerned and attacked American capitalism in an effort to protect first amendment rights. This speech was a plea in his defense for his and other socialists’ freedom of speech. Introduction by Mary Litton Fowler.


BTW next time I post bait for other people try and swim away from it please :)

Offline Wingnut_0

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Unbelievable UBB makes me happy of what we have here...
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2002, 08:55:39 AM »
While we're on the, "let's (insert violent act) everyone, and deport them" speech, can we take care of a huge problem in america.


JERRY FALWELL  and if we can throw in the 700 Club for good measure I'd appreciate it.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2002, 08:57:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher

BTW next time I post bait for other people try and swim away from it please :)


lol, hey now, if TahGut can follow me around with the bobber.gif I think I can poke a few holes as well :)

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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Unbelievable UBB makes me happy of what we have here...
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2002, 09:07:39 AM »
I was laughing when I read the first post on the board. It was so stereotypical that I thought the site was made as a joke of the fundamentalists.

Then I saw the same thing repeat over and over in the next messages..

Maybe the time is not ready for it yet, but I'm hoping religious fundamentalism will be a reckognised and treatable mental illness.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2002, 09:58:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by easymo
"Point is, if you don't let them all play we will never know who is the wimp. "

Hate to say this, tah gut.  But we all know who the wimp is.


Thanks for pointing that out easymo, but don't let your lack of huevos keep you off the playground.

Offline Samm

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Unbelievable UBB makes me happy of what we have here...
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2002, 10:20:55 AM »
Somehow I don't think any marine male or female is afraid of a confrontation with anybody that is astute with emoticon animations .