Author Topic: Serious question (Read 2955 times)

Tumor · « **Reply #75 on:** June 04, 2002, 01:14:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot

Maybe if mandoble and all the other whiners actually flew the planes that they wish to regulate, they might get a clue on what their true failings are, and learn to take advantage of them.

I do

I prefer, as well as others, to TnB (actually I prefer JABO), while many others prefer to BnZ, but why don't we hear from the TnB crowd to PERK the BnZ planes? Its not fair that they drop out of the sky at +400 mph ... take a shot and extent D 4.0 out to start the process all over again ... waaaaaa !!!!

Fine

Just a little note: Can we please dispense with the "whine" and "waaaa"'s. It would be nice to have at least a little bit of a civil, adult conversation on this board... just once.

Tumor · « **Reply #76 on:** June 04, 2002, 01:16:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
exactly funked.

I can compare the AH situation to what the Japanese Samurai faced when the Europeans brought guns.

On one side there was the Samurai class : Born from a priviledged family/caste (aka good nutrition and education when a child for the most part), trained and drilled to kill since childhood.. end result was a superb soldier, deadly with his hands, feet, bow, spear and blade.

On the other side you had the Ashigaru. Or Peasant soldiers. Born from the lowest class of society, Ignorant in both education and warfare. The Samurai class used them as pawns, mere rabble to butcher and act as meat shields. BUT once guns came in, a wimpy retarded farmer could be plucked from the rice fields, trained in using a gun in less than a week and this peasant would have a damn good chance of killing a Samurai. In fact, they killed so many that the samurai leaders eventually had to resort to using mostly guns in their armies. As SHOGUN:ME put it in their intro movie, a samurai narrating : "(after guns changed warfare).. I now desire victory more than honour.."

And in AH we have a similar issue. One group is skilled and is able to fly a wide variety of AC and generally stick to the few they personally like. Another group is the skilless (newbies or powergamers) that dont have a clue about ACM and get creamed by everyone, including themselves, when they take off.

Then the Sheep come and give them "certain" planes that allows them to come to equal terms with the skilled group just by the perfomance of said planes.No particular effort needed to succeed in them. ACM becomes irrelevant. And of course, the sheep make it widely avaliable and the battlefield becomes clogged with them.

Until it came to such a point where the skilled group HAS to fly said "certain" planes or limit their choice of other planes in order to be able to fight off the hordes of dweebshigaru's.

Wow Tac, nice post.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #77 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:04:16 AM »

Kieran, I'll try to use standar simbology and the simplest english to represent what was, is and will be my point of view, perhaps this way you can understand:

performance -> usage level
overusage -> boredom.

Is Spit overused? Yes. Why? cause it is an excelent performer in most situations (hizookas included). Is boring a MA full of spits? yes. A MA full of spits is affecting your gameplay and fun factor? Yes. Does that means that what others fly may affect negatively your fun factor when what others fly represents 1 out of every 5 plane types (out of 63 types) present in MA? yes.

Fatty · « **Reply #78 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:06:47 AM »

Urchin, calling the 109F a challenging plane is a joke, and unless you fall alseep at the joystick an la7 cannot kill a 109e for the very reasons all the bnz'ers in this thread hate spits.

Toad · « **Reply #79 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:11:22 AM »

People seem puzzled by the fact that new and average players seem to prefer to use the "best" planes they can get for MA combat.

HTC has pretty much stated they're just going to keep modeling and modeling and modeling WW2 aircraft.

Secondly, it's obvious that the MA concept which makes every plane available to the players (perk system modifier, of course) in one arena is a cornerstone of their gameplay idea.

So why would anyone be amazed or bothered that if you fly an early war ride or one of the less stellar later models you will run into much better aircraft piloted by folks that will try their level best to "kill" you?

After all, HTC keeps adding planes and some are always better than others.

This IS the MA folks. This IS how it works, how it ALWAYS has worked.

Very capable aircraft are available to all players.. new guys, average guys and "Ghod-like Masters of the Stick & Rudder "(TM).

It's SUPPOSED to be that way. It's DESIGNED that way.

Would the game keep growing if new players were restricted to C-202's for six weeks until they payed their dues, learned to engage as their betters deem correct and learned all the commands? Bet we wouldn't keep too many after the two week free trial.

The truly "good sticks" in the game are rarely found in the latest, greatest, highest performing aircraft. There are lots of guys that deliberately take a knife to a gunfight. Ever wonder why they choose to fly like that? HTC knows why, I guarantee you.

Yeah, I'll say it again. You want a "fair fight"? The dueling arena stands ready to serve you.

The MA was NEVER meant to be a "fair fight" or "chivalry theater". Those of you who find the action in the MA disgusting or troubling apparently don't understand its purpose.

Or, perhaps more importantly, its incredible success.

Fatty · « **Reply #80 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:14:55 AM »

On the fragile egos. It's not the la7 drivers I hear crying constantly, nor is it the people that are really flying early war stuff (unlike pretty much any of the examples cited as real planes in this thread). It's the people flying the almost latest and almost best so they have the excuses at the ready.

SlapShot · « **Reply #81 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:24:55 AM »

Tumor ...

So now you want to regulate what people can and can't write because you believe it will make it more "civil and adult" ... please.

The reference to "waaaa" is really poking fun at what I HEAR in my head every time I read these post about "real men only fly ...".

Actually, we all have digressed from Mathman's original question ... and dragged this thread back down to the never-ending "this plane should be perked" whine.

Math, no I don't care what people fly !!! I really prefer the mission aspect of the game and really like to JABO, so I bring what I need to get the job done. Once all ordinance is delivered, I do the best I can with the CAP, in the ride that I chose, which in most cases is not the best Air-to-Air fighter.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #82 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:53:14 AM »

Seriously, cant understand most of you deffending the idea that what people fly doesnt need to be regulated.

Lets suppose 99% of the people decide to fly exclusively B17s, while the remanent 1% keep flying fighters. Are going the fighters to "whine" about B17 usage? Are you (one of the buff riders) going to tell them "sssadup and let me fly what I want to".

Now ask your self, in that situation, if you were one of the fighter drivers, would you ask for perking the B17? Would you ask the B17 drivers to stop filling the arena with buffs. Would you be happy being killed and killing all the time the same plane?

Tumor · « **Reply #83 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:54:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
Tumor ...

So now you want to regulate what people can and can't write because you believe it will make it more "civil and adult" ... please.

Grow up ... please? no more insults? Please? Pretty Please? With sugar on top? Try? Just like the choo-choo who could?

Fatty · « **Reply #84 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:55:55 AM »

I'd be having a blast mandy. I'd know I could take a cannon butcher like the a8 and not have to worry about nimble fighters.

Kieran · « **Reply #85 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:58:03 AM »

Everyone walks into the MA and gets to make the same choice. Everyone has every weapon spread out before him or her, and gets to decide which is their favorite. Or, transversly, they don't have to choose any, and may sample at will whichever plane strikes his or her fancy.

What we have here is a group of people that have said, "This is it! This is my plane!" whether or not the plane is suited to be competitive in the type of environment in which they would like to fly it. Naturally they get smacked occasionally. Naturally they may see a large number of similar aircraft opposing them. Stating the obvious, this occurs because maybe, just maybe, other people made a similar (albeit with a different plane) choice. The trouble is now we have people that have been allowed to make their choice trying to remove that privilege from others. These people want their planes to do things they are not designed to do, therefore they need the competitors removed.

*If you fly a C202, forget chasing buffs.
*If you fly a 190D9, forget turnfighting.
*If you fly an La5, forget JABO.
*If you fly a C205, forget long-range escort.

So far, the arguments for perking certain planes amount to:

1. They make up too much a percentage of the arena population.
*"The proper percentage" and "variant" issues aside, the stats do not back this up in any way.

2. The aircraft is too easy to kill in compared to other aircraft (mine).
*Once again, the stats do not verify this point, in fact, point out the opposite.

3. "I have earned my right to be good, it's not right some newb can come in and kill me by flying X or Y plane."
*The most inane of all the comments. Of course it is ok. Of course newbs have to be somewhat successful when they enter, else they will never stay for the most part. And really, if a newb in a Spitfire or La7 gets you, whose fault is it?

You decided you would fly only X or Y plane. YOU made the choice to enter an arena where you knew flying that plane was going to be tough. Want to impress people, really? Take whatever plane you want and kill with it, and keep your mouth shut when you die.

Toad · « **Reply #86 on:** June 04, 2002, 09:03:13 AM »

I would guess that after a relatively short period of that kind of activity the masses of buff drivers would suffer defections. People would do something different.

You know how people will go on binges and, for example, eat pizza for several days in a row? Then they go back to a more "normal" style of eating.

In your example people would be on a "buff binge". It probably wouldn't last very long.

If it DID.... and if HTC thought it was adversely affecting their franchise... then HTC would take some action to alter the trend. They'd simply be protecting their business interests.

I know it is certainly not my business to tell other people what to fly or how to enjoy themselves or what to eat for dinner.

I only have one decision to make here. To play or not to play. If I didn't enjoy playing, I wouldn't play.

If I went to a restaurant that served only steak but I was sick and tired and bored with steak I wouldn't demand that they change their menu. I would just go somewhere else to eat.

If you don't like the Spits here, go somewhere that doesn't have Spits. Pretty simple. IL-2 is Spitless, isn't it? There ya go. Paradise. Enjoy.

But somehow I don't think that's what it is about with you.

Toad · « **Reply #87 on:** June 04, 2002, 09:05:33 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
Want to impress people, really? Take whatever plane you want and kill with it, and keep your mouth shut when you die.

Whoomp. There it is.

Tell it bro!

Nifty · « **Reply #88 on:** June 04, 2002, 10:02:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tumor
Yes, actually it would. The best spit drivers wouldn't have a problem. The point and click geeks however might be forced to fly something else now and then after they've burnt their perkies.

yes, they'd be "forced" to fly the Seafire and the Spitfire V. You'd see the exact same about of SPIT tags in the arena, you just wouldn't see the Spitfire IX as much, if at all. Most of the better Spitfire guys prefer the Spit V if I'm not mistaken. That's my point, you guys are sick of SPIT tags in the MA. There are 4 different planes that carry that tag. Half of 'em are Spit IX, but 24% are Spit V and another 24% are Seafires. the little Spit I makes up the rest of them. You perk the Spit IX, and the majority would go to the Seafire and Spit V. A few might migrate to the N1K2 or the La-7 (until they figured out it doesn't turn well) Hell, a few might figure out the Hurri IIc turns like mad and has 4 Hispanos (with little ammo though). However, the Spit V and Seafire would each have their kill numbers go up at least 40%, IMO.

hehe, I love whining when I die!

"nice gang bang" or "it takes HOW many to kill me" means "I got in over my head and I'm a handsomehunk!"

dtango · « **Reply #89 on:** June 04, 2002, 10:05:07 AM »

Mandoble:

We don't see the need to regulate the planes based on the reasons given for regulating them.

Things are balanced as they are. Infact I think the balance is much like the rock-scissors-paper balance which is good in my book. One plane is outclassed in a category by a 2nd plane, but a 3rd plane outclasses the 2nd in a key area but is vulnerable to the 1st plane.

E.g. I fly the P-51D the majority of the time. I can usually dictate my fights with Spits and N1K2's but am very careful to respect the La-7. I like having the La-7 though I hate being shot down by it. It keeps me wary and honest.

Kieran has done a nice job summarizing the 3 reasons given so far for changing the balance of gameplay in AH and pointed out the reasons that they aren't supportable.

Point infact is that my hunch the most popular reason though very often veiled stem from reason #3: "I have earned my right to be good, it's not right some newb can come in and kill me by flying X or Y plane."

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs