Warbirds III Free for August, But ....

[Lephturn]

I don't agree Zigrat.

We don't have any peripheral vision in the game.  That's a big deal.  That combined with our incredibly reduced field of vision means that it is silly to restrict head positions to "historical" ones.

Now, you raised some other points.  Yep, Icons give us a lot of info.  Icon styles, ranges, and range counters are separate issue from the head restrictions in my mind.  If you are getting too much information, then maybe the icon/rangefinder deal needs to be changed.

However, it's not all about "realism".  If you make it real enough, it just gets incredibly difficult and eventually stops being fun.  You've got to find the right compromise, and I like HTC's compromise.

[Nifty]

first, there's been a lot of talk about what "feels right."  SWulfe, where are ya???  Shoot 'em down!!!  

as to WBIII...  My squaddies are here, not there.  

[Rude]

Zig....

I'm not aware of your RL flight experience, but drawing on mine, you most certainly can identify aircraft at 3k...if you can't, you had better stay on the ground.

Lephturn makes the only valid point in this thread relating to visual aids...it's 2D...without these aids, I'de be flying with all twenty of you realism guys in a sim too difficult for the masses to enjoy.

Of course, I'm assuming that you understand the concept of capitalism and that HTC shows up daily for the sole purpose of cashflowing their company...it's not, nor can it be, about realism exclusively.

[SKurj]

Juzz, wb3 offers several different view modes, which the host can limit.
It can have the linda blair view turned off by the host.  It also has G-limited pan views, as well as the instant views.  Personally I hate pan views due to the disorientation it promotes.

SKurj

[Fatty]

I can look out my window at the road (over a mile away), and easily identify the types of cars driving down it.  Heck I can see how many people are in them.  When you can give me that visual quality, I'll gladly go without icons.

[jedi]

Just to clear up a few misconceptions...

--There is a Linda Blair view in WB3.  You can enable/disable it by typing .lindablair (no kidding)  

--Depending on the FOV you select (55, 75, or 90 degrees) it is possible to see "extra" when using the left/back and right/back views, so you can interpret this as either analagous to the AH "outside the canopy" view or as "making up for lack of mirrors" I guess.  I use the 75-degree as a good compromise, and I have to check both back views to clear my six.  Compared to the old WB, six view obstructions are not much of a factor.  Hellcat is the worst, so far, but even that one is workable.  Kick the rudder a bit and check both rear views and you'll know what's back there.

--Roll inertia is ALWAYS present, in EVERY airplane.  It is a physical impossibility for a rolling airplane to stop rolling "instantly."  In almost every case, a "crisp" termination of the roll would require a "counter-roll" stick input.  All you have to do is watch one of those acro competitions on TV to see this (or of course do some acro flying yourself).  The only question is "how long does it take" for the roll to stop once the ailerons are neutralized.  WB probably takes TOO long, but AH's "instantly" isn't right either.  It would also vary with different planes, in terms of initial roll force applied by cable-driven or hydraulically-boosted controls, airspeed, and even cockpit design, i.e. hard to get full aileron in a 109 due to leverage available, seat position, etc.

--WB3 FMs are essentially unchanged, other than some possible accidental changes and a bug or two.  The Center of Gravity is supposedly now dynamically calculated, and the drag from the external stores is finally modeled, so at least those "building blocks" are in place when they do get around to looking at the FM again.  But right now, it won't "feel" much different from WB2.

--At the moment, they appear to be trying to compete with AH on the basis of eye candy, (where they might be ahead) and "extra toys" like tanks and artillery (where they'll get whupped IMO since HTC has a big head start and can build em faster) and ignoring the places where they have the biggest problems (FM and DM are WAY overdue for an update, and of course there is still nothing new on the "strategic front" that we haven't already seen in either DOA or AH).

So, IMO, if you were expecting WB3 to be "The Holy Grail of Flight Simmers" that maybe AH and WW2OL haven't turned out to be, well, it's not that.  At least not yet.  It's a good-looking sim to play, with good "immersion" provided by the upgraded visuals, but it's the same game it always was, with now a few AH features thrown in, and a different FM feel from what you have here.

It's worth the free download IMO, since you can play it offline and the drones make decent gunnery practice, and it's "pretty."    Hardware requirements are a lot steeper than AH tho.  256 Meg RAM is the min, and a GF2-class vidcard is the least you'd want to try with (although TNT2 will sometimes work).  You can get away with a Pentium 400 or so, but don't expect good frame rates in heavy action with that.  P-800 or so is fine.

[Westy MOL]

"Depending on the FOV you select (55, 75, or 90 degrees) it is possible to see "extra" when using the left/back and right/back views, so you can interpret this as either analagous to the AH "outside the canopy" view or as "making up for lack of mirrors" I guess."

 Just a minor clarification, I believe this feature (fully dynamic in AH and a stepped feature in WBIII and WW2O) is to allow a "pilot" to use a more natural field of view, with better visuals on the enemy, when in combat. The standard 90deg FOV is completely bogus but meant to get more of the "world" viewable on a flat 2D monitor for us 'virtual' pilots.
 
 In none of these programs is this feature used as a trade off for lack of anything, like mirrors. They are honest attempts (and it works IMO) to give the'virtual fighter pilot' a regular FOV for use in combat.
 
 However where WBIII and WW2O will only zoom in or out AH does that but AH also allows one to move the virutal head left right, up or down inside the cockpit in real time. With this I can try and see around canopy framing while crusing along looking for cons. This is especially nice in the P-38 or the ME 109's for example, where as in the others I cannot.
 
   Westy

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by jedi:
Just to clear up a few misconceptions...

--There is a Linda Blair view in WB3.  You can enable/disable it by typing .lindablair (no kidding)  

--Depending on the FOV you select (55, 75, or 90 degrees) it is possible to see "extra" when using the left/back and right/back views, so you can interpret this as either analagous to the AH "outside the canopy" view or as "making up for lack of mirrors" I guess.  I use the 75-degree as a good compromise, and I have to check both back views to clear my six.  Compared to the old WB, six view obstructions are not much of a factor.  Hellcat is the worst, so far, but even that one is workable.  Kick the rudder a bit and check both rear views and you'll know what's back there.

--Roll inertia is ALWAYS present, in EVERY airplane.  It is a physical impossibility for a rolling airplane to stop rolling "instantly."  In almost every case, a "crisp" termination of the roll would require a "counter-roll" stick input.  All you have to do is watch one of those acro competitions on TV to see this (or of course do some acro flying yourself).  The only question is "how long does it take" for the roll to stop once the ailerons are neutralized.  WB probably takes TOO long, but AH's "instantly" isn't right either.  It would also vary with different planes, in terms of initial roll force applied by cable-driven or hydraulically-boosted controls, airspeed, and even cockpit design, i.e. hard to get full aileron in a 109 due to leverage available, seat position, etc.

--WB3 FMs are essentially unchanged, other than some possible accidental changes and a bug or two.  The Center of Gravity is supposedly now dynamically calculated, and the drag from the external stores is finally modeled, so at least those "building blocks" are in place when they do get around to looking at the FM again.  But right now, it won't "feel" much different from WB2.

--At the moment, they appear to be trying to compete with AH on the basis of eye candy, (where they might be ahead) and "extra toys" like tanks and artillery (where they'll get whupped IMO since HTC has a big head start and can build em faster) and ignoring the places where they have the biggest problems (FM and DM are WAY overdue for an update, and of course there is still nothing new on the "strategic front" that we haven't already seen in either DOA or AH).

So, IMO, if you were expecting WB3 to be "The Holy Grail of Flight Simmers" that maybe AH and WW2OL haven't turned out to be, well, it's not that.  At least not yet.  It's a good-looking sim to play, with good "immersion" provided by the upgraded visuals, but it's the same game it always was, with now a few AH features thrown in, and a different FM feel from what you have here.

It's worth the free download IMO, since you can play it offline and the drones make decent gunnery practice, and it's "pretty."    Hardware requirements are a lot steeper than AH tho.  256 Meg RAM is the min, and a GF2-class vidcard is the least you'd want to try with (although TNT2 will sometimes work).  You can get away with a Pentium 400 or so, but don't expect good frame rates in heavy action with that.  P-800 or so is fine.

Great response jedi. No emotion involved just the way you see it.

TY

ammo

[Creamo]

Give these reality freaks the HA already.

Real ground distance to targets (7-8 hour missions), no icons, no autopilot unless a plane was so equipped, no talking to other planes unless tuned directly to that flight,(no check 6 calls accordingly) no zoom, no ammo counters, no moving your head under G unless you pass a physical prior to enrolling in the HA, with the medical papers sent in and approved by HTC (your head movment and durability will be calculated and downloaded as a special patch from that) no radar in flight, you will have to rely on country chat or for updates (heh, yeah right), no autotrim, no auto takeoff, no combat trim, YOU WILL have Supreme Commanders that choose your missions, no reupping, limited planeset and your aircraft decided by your commander, no open channel chat period for fun, meeting new people, friendly banter or baiting the NME, your country plane will only have updates in that specific language and all radio chat will be in that language, (ex. 109's only see German writing on maps and on the radio), your country is alotted X amount of planes, when they are used up, you cant fly anymore, you man a radar station and fall asleep, no HOOPTY TWISTY STICKS!, you have to have proof of puchase of a CH PRO or equivalent rudder set, and seperate throttle and stick with picture to enroll, no film option enabled to learn your mistakes in combat, no stats after you get killed, you can't "Spawn" anywhere, you must have a country mate hook up the tug and tractor bar and tow you to the flight line, no ALT TABing and posting nonsense roadkill like this while flying 20 minutes in autopilot grabbing, no pinpoint bombing, you will need 50-150 B17's to knock out factories, no perk points, you can fly the planes in a rotating fashion, the HA starting in next tour being 1939, 6 real years later you get the ME262, did I say NO HOOPTY TWISTY STICKS!?, chute kills blow off chunks of meat and spray red, no running off a runway and your gear not blowing off and plowing a ditch, no reasonably solution to views, they will all be difficult and on your 2D monitor, once you sit down, you can't leave your chair (cockpit) for any reason (new beer, door, crap, nap, a pull, or a samich)  or you will be disconnected from the game, and for Gods Sakes, no whoopee Hoopty Twisty Sticks!

I like AH like it is, trust HTC, yet no it's not perfect. Why guys spend weeks, and months, telling Hitech how to make it cater to small groups is a bit silly.

[R4M]

--Roll inertia is ALWAYS present, in EVERY airplane. It is a physical impossibility for a rolling airplane to stop rolling "instantly." In almost every case, a "crisp" termination of the roll would require a "counter-roll" stick input. All you have to do is watch one of those acro competitions on TV to see this (or of course do some acro flying yourself). The only question is "how long does it take" for the roll to stop once the ailerons are neutralized. WB probably takes TOO long, but AH's "instantly" isn't right either. It would also vary with different planes, in terms of initial roll force applied by cable-driven or hydraulically-boosted controls, airspeed, and even cockpit design, i.e. hard to get full aileron in a 109 due to leverage available, seat position, etc.

.

With all due respect, and talking about the plane I most have problems with in the WB FM, the 190 .

In WB tHe FW190 takes well more than one second to change roll direction. In RL the change of direction was almost instant, for all the reports I've read on the matter.

A little plane with the exceptionally small wing surface of the Fw190 has very little inertia to overcome. The first 190 prototypes sported an even smaller wing. Finally the bigger wing was used because it improved the plane low speed handling while having a NEGLIGIBLE effect on the roll.

 And with effective ailerons as the ones in the 190, the roll could be stopped and reversed in a heartbeat. In AH it can be done and feels "right" (SW will kill me for daring to say that something "feels right"  ). In WB you feel like in a Jumbo Jet.

AH has a lot of things better than WB. WB has a lot of things better than AH. I would like (as almost everyone here) a good compromise between both.

But, overall I think that AH's fm is better than WB's.

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

[GRUNHERZ]

Creamo either you are joking or an extremist amazinhunk idiot.

Which is it?

[R4M]

It always can be both, grunherz  

[Duckwing6]

fore one i really like Creamos opinion this time  

and on the "instant" stopping of a roll... I do aerobatics (ok not advanced but i do) and usually the plane will have stopped rollling by the time it takes you to mave the stick from full deflection to centered.. usually you overcontroll the roll by not moving the stick fast enough or starting your input too late, not because the plane keeps rolling.

DW6

[Creamo]

Lemme guess Grunterdz, you have a Hoopty Twisty Stick.

[GRUNHERZ]

I see creamo is still upset I carbombed his retared vulching bellybutton once 6 month ago.

Creamo is such a tard he cant even vulch right.....


And yes I have twisty stick..


I vote #2!