Author Topic: The Real Eve  (Read 3029 times)

Offline Animal

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« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2002, 06:26:03 PM »
By the way, for the record. I'm agnostic.

I dont believe in organized religion, but I do believe in "God" though I have a different broader definition of the word. And I believe all this came from somewhere, something made it.

But to say the evolution and such theories are lies, thats just ignorant.

I leave the discussion to midnight Target from now on.
*passes the torch to MT*

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2002, 06:29:56 PM »
How did the first cell "appear"?
Does evolution apply on cells?

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2002, 06:32:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal

I leave the discussion to midnight Target from now on.
*passes the torch to MT*


I suggest all who want to participate try to find the thread titled "E vs C" and read it from cover to cover. IIRC it may be the longest thread ever on this board.

Offline Animal

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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2002, 06:33:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund3
How did the first cell "appear"?
Does evolution apply on cells?


Yes it actually does.

Offline takeda

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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2002, 06:37:52 PM »
Quote
What evolutionary scientists have not been able to do is tie homo-sapiens to any direct ancestors. There is no unbroken line of human evolution to study. A number of ancient relatives of man have been discovered, but the closest direct ancestors of Cro-magnon or homo-sapiens have yet to be discovered. A very puzzling "blank spot" exists.



God of the Gaps argument. Looking for the unknowns of science and fitting a God on them makes little sense, and is dangerous to the idea of God, as he gets smaller and smaller space as science advances

People used to worship the Sun, now we know it is just a huge ball of burning gas.

OTOH, care to point that blank spot to me? I fail to find it:
http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/timeline.html

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2002, 06:39:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund3
How did the first cell "appear"?
Does evolution apply on cells?


Interestingly there have been studies that show that mitocondrian have an "older version" of DNA than the cell nucleus. Some have even speculated that mitocondria may be similar to the earliest cells and that a symbiotic relationship might have formed between early cells and mitocondria to boths advantage.

There is a hierarchy of one celled organisms too Hortlund. Streching from preons (which are almost viruses) to Amoeba and Parameceum which are probably as complex as you can get and still be one celled.

Offline Animal

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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2002, 06:40:53 PM »
Hortlund are you actually reading and considering the stuff we are anwering, or are you sitting there rolling your eyes?
Curious.

Anyways this is the end for me I hope this gets big.
Anxious to come back monday and see how it grew ;)

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2002, 06:43:10 PM »
This is just one little problem that must be overcome to explain the existence of the very first living cell.  

According to the theory of evolution, the first living cell had to have been formed by naturalistic mechanisms that defy all the known laws of nature. Natural law says that all inanimate matter desires equilibrium.

Homogeny is the ultimate goal of nature. A living cell is almost infinitely far away from this goal. Every living cell is extremely complicated and yet one of these amazing machines, which still cannot be reproduced by science, just happened to come together even before “natural selection” was even theoretically around?!  

Come on now.  Is this a rational theory?  Consider the fact that the simplest living cell is far more complicated than the best supercomputer in the world today.  And yet many believe that such a cell assembled itself in a primitive ocean soup of this Earth about four billion years ago?  Really?  Would anyone believe that a supercomputer could assemble itself in the shifting sands of the earth's primitive deserts?  Why not?  All the building blocks for a supercomputer  are there mixed up in the desert sands.  Volcanic activity, lightening, and wind could provide the necessary energy for construction.  What's the problem?  Homogeny.  Homogeny is the problem.  

Parts do not assemble themselves in a non-homogenous way because of natural law.  Information and directed energy from an outside source is needed for the assembly of working parts that were originally homogenous.

In the very first cell (Assuming that there was a “first” cell), which came first... the DNA or the protein?  Of course, the protein that reads the DNA is itself coded for by the DNA.  So, the protein could not be there first since its code or order is contained in the DNA that it decodes.  Proteins would have to decode themselves before they could exist.  

So obviously, without the protein there first, the DNA would never be read and the protein would never be made.  Likewise, the DNA could not have been there first since DNA is made and maintained by the proteins of the cell.  Yes, the whole system is dependent upon all its parts being there simultaneously.  Some have called such a system "irreducibly complex."  DNA makes proteins that make DNA.  Without either one of them, the other cannot be made or maintained.  Since these molecules are the very basics of all life, there could be no more primitive life form to evolve from.  And, even if a lot of protein and DNA were to come together at the same time, what are the odds that all the hundreds of necessary unique proteins needed to decode both the DNA and mRNA (not to mention the needed ATP molecules) would all simultaneously fuse together in a functional way?  

Not only has this phenomenon never been reproduced by any scientist in any laboratory on earth, but a reasonable mechanism by which such a  phenomenon might even occur has not even been theorized.

Offline Animal

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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2002, 06:47:13 PM »
The lord works in mysterious ways ;)

That answers your question.

(without going into the special "soup of life" and how a touch of electricity will turn it into bio, wich will then try to find the most energy efficient way to endure, thus slowly forming the first primitive components of the first bacteria)

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2002, 06:50:57 PM »
hehe have a great weekend you moron ;)

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2002, 06:52:52 PM »
btw I would love to hear your theories about the "soup of life" and a spark of electricity. <-- seriously

Offline takeda

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« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2002, 06:58:08 PM »
Steve is attaking the wrong theory. You are right that the Creationist simplified view of abiogenesis theory seems greatly improbable:

simple chemicals -----------------------------> bacteria


but the model scientists work with is a bit more gradual than that:


simple chemicals->polymers->replicating polymers->hypercicle->protobiont->bacteria

Each step brings  a small increase in organisation and complexity, and the chemicals slowly get closer to being a living cell, rather than making one big leap.

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2002, 07:01:26 PM »
start wherever you want, and explain protein, dna and the cell.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2002, 07:02:09 PM »
Takeda,

Have scientists been able to duplicate that process in the laboratory?  Or is it still just theory?

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Animal

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« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2002, 07:11:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Takeda,

Have scientists been able to duplicate that process in the laboratory?  Or is it still just theory?

Regards, Shuckins



ONE LAST BEFORE I LEAVE!!!
(damn interesting threads, just had to check it out before I leave the door)


YES it has been replicated several times though I doubt they reached cell status. (that we know of; many of these experiments are not disclosed to the public because its tricky)

Steve if you want the process in detail someone else is better off explaining cause I'm not a true expert in biology and I dont want to roadkill you. I just know and understand the basics when it comes to that point.
I bet Takeda knows the stuff better.

Its nice that you are reading this stuff and grasping it instead of covering your eyes and ears and yelling LALALALAFCANTHEARYOU

Though if you keep pushing back far enough you will always reach a place in science where its all based on faith, thats where the purest concept of GOD comes to play. And the MORE we understand science, the closer we get to that concept. Dont set limitations, or you are actually working AGAINST your own true beliefs (wich is faith in god, wich most  true scientists have (including einstein and steven hawkins))
CYA
(cousin pulling me by the shirt)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2002, 07:20:05 PM by Animal »