Author Topic: The Real Eve  (Read 3847 times)

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2002, 12:10:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe

Aside from a faith based on a book written 5000 years ago by very simple people as a means to justify/explain their existence that has gone through thousands of revisions... what else do you have to explain/justify that there is a God?


AK, you said the word yourself- "faith." No, I don't believe I'll die, go to Heaven and sprout wings, but I know my spirit will continue on. I know this is but one step in an eternal journey and I also know we aren't really capable of understanding what happens after this. My faith alone convinces me there is a God. It's all I need.

Offline Cobra

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« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2002, 12:22:12 PM »
My only question.......Was Eve a hottie???

Cobra

Offline Animal

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« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2002, 12:25:03 PM »
God killed the dinosaurs and mamooths because they were a failed experiment and he hated them as his retard childs.

I'm beginning to think he is starting to feel the same way about us. He keeps failing his little experiments and blaming the results on his offspring :rolleyes:

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2002, 12:26:16 PM »
Thomas Aquinas - Not that I agree, but there are thinking people who have tried to prove God's existence. A good read nontheless.


I answer that it can be proved in five ways that God exists.

The first and plainest is the method that proceeds from the point of view of motion. It is certain and in accord with experience, that things on earth undergo change. Now, everything that is moved is moved by something; nothing, indeed, is changed, except it is changed to something which it is in potentiality. Moreover, anything moves in accordance with something actually existing; change itself, is nothing else than to bring forth something from potentiality into actuality. Now, nothing can be brought from potentiality to actual existence except through something actually existing: thus heat in action, as fire, makes fire-wood, which is hot in potentiality, to be hot actually, and through this process, changes itself. The same thing cannot at the same time be actually and potentially the same thing, but only in regard to different things. What is actually hot cannot be at the same time potentially hot, but it is possible for it at the same time to be potentially cold. It is impossible, then, that anything should be both mover and the thing moved, in regard to the same thing and in the same way, or that it should move itself. Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand. Therefore it is necessary to go back to some first mover, which is itself moved by nothing---and this all men know as God.

The second proof    is from the nature of the efficient cause. We find in our experience that there is a chain of causes: nor is it found possible for anything to be the efficient cause of itself, since it would have to exist before itself, which is impossible. Nor in the case of efficient causes can the chain go back indefinitely, because in all chains of efficient causes, the first is the cause of the middle, and these of the last, whether they be one or many. If the cause is removed, the effect is removed. Hence if there is not a first cause, there will not be a last, nor a middle. But if the chain were to go back infinitely, there would be no first cause, and thus no ultimate effect, nor middle causes, which is admittedly false. Hence we must presuppose some first efficient cause---which all call God.


The third proof   is taken from the natures of the merely possible and necessary. We find that certain things either may or may not exist, since they are found to come into being and be destroyed, and in consequence potentially, either existent or non-existent. But it is impossible for all things that are of this character to exist eternally, because what may not exist, at length will not. If, then, all things were merely possible (mere accidents), eventually nothing among things would exist. If this is true, even now there would be nothing, because what does not exist, does not take its beginning except through something that does exist. If then nothing existed, it would be impossible for anything to begin, and there would now be nothing existing, which is admittedly false. Hence not all things are mere accidents, but there must be one necessarily existing being. Now every necessary thing either has a cause of its necessary existence, or has not. In the case of necessary things that have a cause for their necessary existence, the chain of causes cannot go back infinitely, just as not in the case of efficient causes, as proved. Hence there must be presupposed something necessarily existing through its own nature, not having a cause elsewhere but being itself the cause of the necessary existence of other things---which all call God.


The fourth proof   arises from the degrees that are found in things. For there is found a greater and a less degree of goodness, truth, nobility, and the like. But more or less are terms spoken of various things as they approach in diverse ways toward something that is the greatest, just as in the case of hotter (more hot) which approaches nearer the greatest heat. There exists therefore something that is the truest, and best, and most noble, and in consequence, the greatest being. For what are the greatest truths are the greatest beings, as is said in the Metaphysics Bk. II. 2. What moreover is the greatest in its way, in another way is the cause of all things of its own kind (or genus); thus fire, which is the greatest heat, is the cause of all heat, as is said in the same book (cf. Plato and Aristotle). Therefore there exists something that is the cause of the existence of all things and of the goodness and of every perfection whatsoever---and this we call God.


The fifth proof    arises from the ordering of things for we see that some things which lack reason, such as natural bodies, are operated in accordance with a plan. It appears from this that they are operated always or the more frequently in this same way the closer they follow what is the Highest; whence it is clear that they do not arrive at the result by chance but because of a purpose. The things, moreover, that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent; just as an arrow is sent by an archer. Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God.

In response to the first objection, then, I reply what Augustine says; that since God is entirely good, He would permit evil to exist in His works only if He were so good and omnipotent that He might bring forth good even from the evil. It therefore pertains to the infinite goodness of God that he permits evil to exist and from this brings forth good.
My reply to the second objection is that since nature is ordered in accordance with some defined purpose by the direction of some superior agent, those things that spring from nature must be dependent upon God, just as upon a first cause. Likewise, what springs from a proposition must be traceable to some higher cause which is not the human reason or will, because this is changeable and defective and everything changeable and liable to non-existence is dependent upon some unchangeable first principle that is necessarily self-existent as has been shown.


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Offline Wlfgng

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« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2002, 12:33:06 PM »
NO.  

she didn't have to be, being the only female around !

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2002, 01:06:57 PM »
Yeah Elf- I said faith.

I never said I was right. I never said people who believe in a God, afterlife, etc, were wrong.

According to what I have come to know, what I have seen, what is around me in this reality... I lean more towards no God or divine whatever.

If I'm wrong, I go to hell. If I'm right... eh, won't even be around to care.

Have faith all you want, just don't expect other people to accept it as willingly, or to follow it as blindly... and don't get upset when someone has a differing view point.

Remember, the majority is right about 50% of the time.
-SW

Offline Kanth

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Re: Surprise!!!
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2002, 01:07:32 PM »
Ignorance is a revelation of God.

that's catchy...

what a blabbermouth.

Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Thomas Aquinas - Not that I agree, but there are thinking people who have tried to prove God's existence. A good read nontheless.
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Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2002, 01:12:59 PM »
Midnight, thanks for that very interesting quote.

This theological discussion is interesting. Some have been calling for proof. But they are missing the point. We are not supposed to have proof, we are supposed to have faith. And if you think about it, some of the most important things in the world exist without proof.

Do you love someone? A child, a brother, a parent, a wife, a girlfriend...?

Can you prove that you love that person?

Does the fact that you cant prove it make that love any less real, any less important, any less true?

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2002, 01:22:16 PM »
Hortlund-

Love is a human emotion. It's just as real as being sad, glad, happy, pissy, etc.

I can't prove to you I'm sad, unless I have a tear coming down my face. Even then, am I sad? Or is it just something in my eye?

Emotions can be proven by change in the bio-rhythm... atleast I saw it on the discovery channel a few years back.

OTOH, belief is just that. We believed the world was flat. We believed the earth was the center of the universe (please note: this was after religious folks changed from the firmament being the skies above and pushed it further out into the universe). We believed there were witches(Salem)....

We believe a lot of things. If you were uneducated, I could convince you that lightning was because the Gods were pissed off. Oh wait, they did that in ancient Greece and Rome.

Just saying, the invervention of "God" is used to explain a lot of things our feeble minds can't quite grasp.
;)
-SW

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2002, 01:43:05 PM »
You are missing my point.

Ok, how about this. Did you love your first girlfriend? Can you prove that?

-------
And if you want to debate over primitive man or ancient mans beliefs, it will only be misleading. "We" is far to vauge to have any sort of meningful discussion. Let me just point out that "we" also believed that it is impossible to survive drinking salt water alone, we believed that wild animals would stay away from fire, we believed that you can get water if you melt snow ...and we were right about those things.

Its about faith. Personal faith, I cannot give you my faith, nor can I convince you, or prove to you that I am right and you are wrong. Because everyone must search his own heart to find his own truth.

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2002, 01:50:12 PM »
what's the guys name again that saw the snow and said hey I bet you could get some water out of that..

before he got wet.

Or that guy who looked at fire and thot, man animals will NOT dig this stuff!!!

before he saw them move away from it.?

Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund3
we believed that you can get water if you melt snow ...and we were right about those things.
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Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2002, 01:53:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Yeah Elf- I said faith.

I never said I was right. I never said people who believe in a God, afterlife, etc, were wrong.

According to what I have come to know, what I have seen, what is around me in this reality... I lean more towards no God or divine whatever.

If I'm wrong, I go to hell. If I'm right... eh, won't even be around to care.

... and don't get upset when someone has a differing view point.

-SW


SW, your faith (or lack thereof) is your own business. I doubt the existance of Hell as a place where non-believers go, so I think you're off the hook on that one. He'll probably just make you wax the clouds for a few thousand years or so. :)

It's ironic your view of the world around you convinces you there is no God whereas my view of the world around me convinces me there IS a God. I look at a sunrise, a budding plant, an infant and I see  God's wonderful gifts of nature and life.

LOL now don't YOU get upset because someone has a differing view point. Our spiritual beliefs are our own business, and I wouldn't think less of a person that was agnostic any more than I would think less of a person because they were a Hindu. God loves all of us, SW. I believe that.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2002, 01:56:46 PM »
I could if at that time I was hooked up to one of those machines... then I could prove it.

That's my point.

Some things were believed in because they were correct. Some things that were believed in, were because their simple minds couldn't understand it.

Enough pirates out on the sea, some of 'em drank sea water and died. Others lived to tell about it and found it, you DO die if you drink it.

Same with fire, some primitive man started waving fire around on a stick at some animals... they ran away. He grunted to his buddies, and they started using fire to keep animals at bay.

Snow was placed onto a fire to put it out... snow melted, but the fire also went out. But the proof is in the pudding, they made water out of snow/ice.

But when you start placing all of your cards into your heart, that's when you effectively give up on trying to find out the real truth. Your "heart" is no more going to guide you to the answer than the Bible, or some scientists. Nor will you find out the absolute truth if you arrive at one conclusion, and just because it's the most widely accepted, it's the one that you choose as your final conclusion.

Case in point, I use to be religious, and use to believe there was a God.

Now I don't know what there is... I only know reality, and that's all anyone knows. Everything else is just faith, belief and subjective conjecture.

So trying to explain/justify the existance of a God, Gods, or whatever, based on the majority of people's acceptance, or based on a 5000 year old book written by simpletons that's gone through thousands of revisions, seems a bit silly to me...

Now if that mythical judgement day comes (hey, wasn't that supposed to happen a couple of years ago? Could of sworn the bible said 2000 years), or I die, then I'll know there is a God/whatever you want to call it.

Until then, science is doing a helluva lot better job explaining reality than religion has ever done.
-SW

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2002, 01:56:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kanth
what's the guys name again that saw the snow and said hey I bet you could get some water out of that..

before he got wet.

Or that guy who looked at fire and thot, man animals will NOT dig this stuff!!!

before he saw them move away from it.?

 


I think it was the same guy who looked at the ground and saw that it was flat actually. Or maybe Im thinking of the guy who stood in his observatory watching the sun and the moon and the stars move all over the sky while the earth was not moving at all.

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2002, 02:08:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Until then, science is doing a helluva lot better job explaining reality than religion has ever done.

Actually SW science has never explained anything about reality, all they are able to do is describe reality.

Science has never been able to answer the "why" question...did you know that?

An example: I hold my mug of coffee above my desk and then drop it. I ask science why the mug falls down on the desk and spills coffee all over.
-"Gravity", they answer.
-"Why does gravity make my cup of coffee hit the desk?" I ask
-"Because large objects attract smaller objects, in this case, earth (large object) attracted your cup of coffee (smaller object), the larger object pulled the smaller object towards itself.
-"But why does large objects attract smaller objects?" I ask.

There are two possible answers here, either science will start moving into advanced theories of gravitational waves or gravitational strings or whatever (something that will only lead to yet another "why" question from me. Or science will lose its temper with pesky me and say
 -"Because thats the way it is" <-- (that is NOT a valid answer to a "why" question btw).