P-47 vs P-51 in WWII

[Samm]

The p47 was instrumental in the victory in Italy .

[Mino]

The P47 may have 'broke the back of the Luftwaffe', but the Luftwaffe was demolishing U.S. bomber groups and bomber crews at the same time.

80-90% of bomber losses were due to ground AAA, mechanical problems and accidents.

[fdiron]

Mino, you just made that figure up.  It wasnt mechanical problems or Flak that brought the Strategic Bombing Campaign to a hault after Schweinfurt.  It was German fighters.

[Tac]

You just have to look at Chuck Yeager himself. His Ace in a Day story... of the 5 he shot down, 1 was definetely so green he couldnt even trim his plane to fly straight, the other 4 he described as being easy to shoot down.

By the time the pony came in, the LW only had 3 kinds of pilots: Ubervets, 10hr flightschool pilots, and corpses.

I'd say the P-47 had much more impact in Europe due to its numbers, the 38 beat every other fighter in the Pacific.

The P-51 just picked up the pieces and ran down an already defeated enemy air force.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by fdiron
Ok, I found some VERY interesting data on the P47:

160,000 military vehicles destroyed

160,000 enemy vehicles?  I guess they were counting cars, motorcycles, bicycles, wagons and maybe even pony rides at the carousel?

Sakai

[whgates3]

jabo is short for jagdbomber. litteraly 'hunter-bomber' translates to fighter-bomber. generic term not specific to the Jug, but the Jug sure scarred the $hi+e outta the ground troops

[Wotan]

1 was definetely so green he couldnt even trim his plane to fly straight,

???? more allied bs

the 109 only had elevator trim and the 190 had electrical trim. Yeager was shot down by a 190 and had to escape through spain before his "ace in a day". He ended up with 11.5 kills

As he closed in on one Bf-109, the pilot broke left and collided with his wingman; both bailed out, giving Yeager credit for two victories without firing a shot.

proxy kills?

[Mino]

Originally posted by fdiron
Mino, you just made that figure up.  It wasnt mechanical problems or Flak that brought the Strategic Bombing Campaign to a hault after Schweinfurt.  It was German fighters.

I had thought that at one time FdIron, but then I did some research as you should do also.

[Tac]

Wotan, in his story he said the plane he shot down was flying like a crab. The pilot did not know how to fly the thing. Considering how short on fuel the LW was at the time and the incredibly short amount of training the new LW pilots had in the time, its not surprising.

The P-51 did great things yes, but it did them onto an enemy that was already attritioned to the breaking point. Like someone said above, all it did was break its back.

Silly ponies.

[slimm50]

Originally posted by senna
Just was wondering what you guys think. Theres some posts recently about the P-51 so I thought this post up. Do you think the ruggedness of the P-47s made the more important difference in the AirWar over Europe or do you feel the Mustangs and their long range capability really made the difference ? [No question, in my mind. The long range capabilities, along with manuverability and firepower, of the Pony is what allowed the BUFFs access to Germany, thereby making the greatest contribution./QUOTE]

[Wotan]

could have been pilot injured, plane damaged or whatever.

the only trim on a 109 is elevator trim.

the rudder is trimmed on the ground. The guy might have been "sliping" to cause an overshot.

But theres to many ifs.

an Easy kill is an easy kill, but the lw were outnumbered so even an experten had a rough time.

I do not too much about Yeager but he was shot down when he only had 1 kill. Most guys in his situation (shot down behind enemy lines then avoided capture to escape back to england) didnt get to fly again.

Not all lw were easy kills

Maj.  Wilhelm Steinmann  11+ mustang kills

Ofw.  Heinrich Bartels  11 p51s 9 p47s and 14 p38s
on 26 January 1968, Bartels’ Bf 109 G-10 (WNr. 130 359) “Yellow 13” was found at Villip near Bad Godesberg. In the cockpit was the intact parachute...

Obstlt.  Heinz Bär 10 p51s

Oblt.  Wilhelm Hofmann 10 p51s 13 p47s and 5 b17s

Hofmann led a formation of eight Fw 190s from Drope on a Jabo mission in the Wesel-Bocholt area on 26 March 1945. The formation encountered USAAF B-26s near Münster and he led a bounce of the RAF Tempest fighter escort shooting down one for his 44th victory. However, during the ensuing confusion Hofmann went missing. It was later determined he had been shot down by his wingman and crashed between Hasselünne and Flechum. He had managed to bale out but was too low for his parachute to deploy.

[J_A_B]

"Ofw. Heinrich Bartels 11 p51s 9 p47s and 14 p38s
on 26 January 1968, Bartels’ Bf 109 G-10 (WNr. 130 359) “Yellow 13” was found at Villip near Bad Godesberg. In the cockpit was the intact parachute... "

Ofw. Bartels prepares to bail out of his stricken plane.  As he jumps clear, he can't shake the nagging feeling that he's forgetting something.  As he goes to pull his ripcord...

famous last words...."DOH!"


J_A_B

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Gorf
I am not saying the P51 was a bad plane.. it was a great plane but it was not the greatest plane of WWII nor was anyother plane of WWII, they all made major contributions to the war and to add to that it wasnt all the plane.. it was the pilot.  

Cheers

Gorf
56th Fighter Group

wow you dont realise how good it is to hear that said by an American!

I whole heartedly agree with you there.

and by the way this is what Oberstleutnant Heinz Bar said of some fighters when interogated at kaufbeuren Germany on the 28th of august 1945.

'The mustang is the best escort fighter up to six thousand meters.The Thunderbolt is , as a fighter bomber, very efficient as it has a radial engine and long endurance.The Lightning is an old type aircraft but is efficient as an escort fighter over water because of its ability to fly on one engine.'
'The Tempest is a very good fighter but was not well known (by bar).The spitfire is fast and maneuverable, has a good climb and excellent armament but does not have long range.The typhoon is good as a ground attack aircraft because of its speed in horizontal flight.The allied tendancy towards heavy fighter aircraft is not good.R/T was considered as very good on all types of aircraft.'

not very in depth but gives an idea of what they thought.

[whgates3]

As he closed in on one Bf-109, the pilot broke left and collided with his wingman; both bailed out, giving Yeager credit for two victories without firing a shot.

the British would not have crdited either of those as kills

[BUG_EAF322]

Hazed wabble talker the lightning is an old design like the me 109

but i wouldn't compare the E with the G10 model

as don't to compare a D with a L model

for the rest stay ignorant about the lightning