Why no HE-111???

[whgates3]

why no He111 pix?

[Wilbus]

It is NOT a better bomber then a JU88. The Ju88 is FAR faster, and speed is EVERYTHING. The Ju88 A-4 can carru 6,600 lbs payload and it has a fairly good speed while doing it. It can carry 4,400 in even higher speed (faster then any other bomber we have. except Arado)

The He111 had a couple more MG's but it was a much easier target and it was alot harder to escort. You will see this is we had teh He111 and the Ju88 in a BoB setup. The Ju88 would be able to get in and get out much faster, means less time over enemy territory

Compare Versions:

He111 H-1, H-2, H-3 and H-4 were the ones that saw action during BoB.
The difference main difference between these planes was that the A3 introduced an 20mm MG FF in the Forward Gondola. The bomb load was same for all of them.

Max speed was 435 km/h at 6000 meter (270 mph at 19,600 feet).

Internal Bomb load was 2000kg ( bout 4,400 lbs). The H-4 was the first one that could carry external bomb. If external load was carried a total of 2500kg (bout 5,500 lbs) could be carried. Speed was lower due to external load.

The Ju88 carried as much, and was some 20mph faster. Ju 88 have almost the same armament.

If you wanna go even later in the War the He111 will be even more outclassed by the Ju88 and Ju188. One bomber I wanna see is the Ju88 S which could carry a 2000kg bomb load (4,400 lbs) in a speed of 600 km/h (372mph). Although a quite small load is carried, a few people flying in that speed can hit a field and get out before any fighter can engage it. Only way to actually engage it good will be to dive on it as most fighter don't usually fly around very fast in normal level flight.

[Sikboy]

Stupid allied whiners just want an He-111 because they are tired of getting their tulips handed to them by Ju-88's in BoB scenarios. What's the matter guys? those .303's just aren't cutting it?

-Sikboy

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Wilbus
It is NOT a better bomber then a JU88. The Ju88 is FAR faster, and speed is EVERYTHING. The Ju88 A-4 can carru 6,600 lbs payload and it has a fairly good speed while doing it. (snip uber argument)

 It's not just a case of which plane is more uber and which plane makes MA players drool more. Well, at least not from my p.o.v. It's what makes for a better overall scenario design planeset. If most of the Doom MA arena mindset is the main influence on what planes are added then scenarios may as well concentrate on designing SWOTL style "what if" scenarios and forget about adding real depth and flexibility. Face it, AH's main competition in the online air combat sim communities went against the Doom mindset and managed to pick up quite a major chunk of the scenario minded players by avoiding the late war/uber mindset and concentrating on portraying the earlier, less well known machines in an early war setting.

 As far as my pushing for a Spanish Civil War planeset and setting, that was to primarily offer something new and exciting for players to experience ... not just the same ol' "uber fighters chasing down heavy bombers" rut that everyone seems stuck in. But even that, now, was a window of opportunity that came and went since there's another online community that's showing some effort in that area.

 Don't get me wrong. From what I've seen (admittedly in a limited capacity) of AH, it is a great game with alot of potential. I just hate seeing the potential wasted. MA may have helped give this game it's start but it's not the end all and be all. Even the most addicted Doom dogfighter is bound to suffer burnout from the same ol' same ol' (with an additional uber plane thrown in from time to time for flavor). Eh ... I've said it before. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.

[brady]

I am for the addation of Early war planes, Principably I am for the fleshing out of all the countries planes set's and I beleave in the interest of fairness that countries with the smallest planeset's curentaly should be given priourity.

 Any further comments I may of had to add about the He 111 have been made so well by Wilbus, that I nead not restae them.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by brady
I am for the addition of early war planes. Principaly I am for the fleshing out of all the countries planes sets and I believe, in the interest of fairness, that countries with the smallest planesets currently should be given priority.

 Any further comments I may of had to add about the He 111 have been made so well by Wilbus that I nead not restate them.

 Actually, Brady .... I can respect that. And I do. It certainly doesn't help scenarios to have lopsided planesets. So let me apologize for jumping back atcha.

 But I still think Wilbus is focusing more on what plane is technically superior to the other and not what plane can actually benefit scenarios more.

 Oh well, I'm a visitor in a strange land anyhow. (g)

[Sikboy]

There's a thread in this forum somewhere, where Bullethead and I discussed general concepts for expanding the planeset. It covered much of what is debated evertime someone suggests a plane.  It startedin a thread about the Mig3 when I observed:

Originally Posted by Sikboy
 Therin lies the rub. Everyone has thier own rational for how to advance the plane set. Some Choose National Balance (Build the Itlalian Airforce up) Others choose historical numbers/Role (Build the P-40e) Others choose MA utility (Build the Ki-84) Others Choose Scenario/CT Utility (Build the Mig-3) I think its best to try and find the plane that best fits as many of the above criteria as possible (and any other criteria that might might be suggested).

How does the He-111 fit into this framework?
1. National Balance. Well, the Germans have two bombers, but one is a perk bomber, which if I understand correctly, has seen a dropoff in usage since the new bomber system came out. In this case, there is a case for another German bomber (and I know many have and will suggest other german bombers, but that isn't taken into account at this stage.

2. Historic numbers/role. It is undoubted that the He-111 scores highly in this catagory.  This Aircraft was used in large numbers and was a principle in the early war.

3. MA Utility. Not really worth mentioning. This plane fails to meat this criteria IMHO.

4. Scenario/CT utility. This is a big hit here in Cat4. As has been mentioned, this plane is essential to the BoB planeset,  and would find a home in BoB Special Events.

Although it wouldn't be my first choice, I think that the He-111 is a good choice for modeling.

Attempts to engage others in coming up with a universal model to evaluate planeset additions proved fruitless

-Sikboy

[Wilbus]

I am both disussing the technical superiority of the Ju88 and I am discussing this because the He111 isn't really needed at this moment.

My last post was all about telling those who think the He111 was better that the Ju88 was the better, much better actually, plane of the both. However, I also think that (which has nothign to do with the Ju88 being better) there He111 is not needed at this moment.
As for early war scenarios, we have the Ju88, although it would make a better mix with a He111 aswell, I agree with Brady about LW needing a heavy mid/late war bomber so that more detail can be put into late war scenarios aswell.

However, I think that first both the Italians and the Russians needs a bomber each.

[hyena426]

why get upset on a few people wanting a he111 or ju87?,and they do fit in war scenarios!!,,like it or not these 2 planes helped germans get a head start,,at there time they were considered faster than most fighters,,{in 1937 that is},,lol,,,,later in the war things got better and faster,,,but these 2 planes were the work horse of there time,,its allmost like not giving usa the b17,,,the stuka not in a flight sim!!,,,what are you all thinking?,,lol,,one of the most popular german planes in history,,,im not even a bomber pilot,,but time to time i fly them,,,how can you have true historical battles with out these 2 planes?,,,they were used in so many attacks,,how can you have Battle of Britain with out this plane?,,,,well ayways,,just because you dont like the plane doesnt mean it dont belong here,,,these 2 planes out of any german bombers should be here first,,,,,,,,,,,,i beleve some of the othere countries need planes too,,there aint no reason we cant have every main line plane in this game {in time}

[Wilbus]

Noone is upset here, and noone has said we don't want it. I want, I want it alot. But just as Brady, I think there are more important planes, such as Russian and Italian bombers. And even when it comes to a German bomber, I think there are more important planes then the He111. I was mostly discussing the performance difference and the superiority of the JU88.

The Ju87 should have been in AH A LONG time ago IMO, a WW2 game can't be called a WW2 game without a JU87.

[Arlo]

Sure, I'm all for adding the Tupelov SB-2 and the Savoia Marchetti SM79 Sparviero as well. Add in the I-15 Chato and the Fiat CR-32, too. Well, at least the bombers. They had a shelf life that went beyond the SCW. The rest'll work if the SCW is ever seriously considered.

[Staga]

Hyena is your key-board broken or why all those ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ?

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Staga
Hyena is your key-board broken or why all those ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ?

 Must be catching. Yours is adding dashes.

[brady]

O My God ! He said SM 79, now I must get emotional:)

   See my post on this forum on the SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007:)

 http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65464

[Arlo]

Originally posted by brady
O My God ! He said SM 79, now I must get emotional:)

   See my post on this forum on the SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007:)

 http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65464

 Yeah .... Cant more uber .... Cant MA. Dammit, Scott, you just don't get it. Cant not in SCW.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27125

 Hehe ... seen your Cant vs SM-79 thang. Knew your position on that already.

 Eh .... can't blame a guy for trying ... or Cant ya?