Author Topic: Religious T-shirts  (Read 5647 times)

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #105 on: November 12, 2002, 08:04:26 AM »
So... what options are available to the believer?

Quote scripture? Nope, it will be denied as mere words.

Prove existance of events as cited in Bible? This continues to happen, but such events are played down as inconclusive or irrelevant.

Describe personal stories of God's touch? Denied as hallucination or chemical reaction to something eaten.

Stand on a street corner and scream like a zealot? While it proves your faith, it does nothing to bring new people in to the faith.

Prove the unprovable? Not possible.

Live the life of faith as instructed by God? Yes, this is doable. This means enduring attacks to the faith by those around you.

I don't hide I am a Christian, never have here. I am happy to engage in conversation about it, but that isn't really what we have here, is it? What we typically have is a believer setting himself up as a pie clown, and letting the passersby take their best shots. I can recall pretty good discussions with St.Santa and MT in particular, and though we didn't really change one another's minds, I felt the discussions were two-way.

No, what some want is to goad a Christian into standing up and enduring attacks- I don't know why. I can't get in the heads of people, so I can't guess why that is.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #106 on: November 12, 2002, 08:11:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by popeye

As you point out, it is not possible to prove something is non-existant, therefore the burden of proof is on believers.
[/b]
Hm, did you miss what I said about "faith" instead of physical evidence?
Quote

Nope.  You can play the "faith" card, but "reason" belongs to the other side.  See above.

Not really. "Faith" is mine yes, but "reason" sure as he** dont belong to "the other side". Since an agnostic apparently believes that the existence of a God is unknown, and probably unknowable, you guys get "sceptic".

Offline popeye

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« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2002, 08:14:33 AM »
Heck, I don't care what kind of T-shirt you wear, or what you do in the privacy of your home.

I just get bothered by "trash logic".
KONG

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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #108 on: November 12, 2002, 10:08:53 AM »
this may surprise a few but I believe in god.   I have felt him in the very best of times and the very worst.   I have no proof.  

I also think that my god would be sad to see all the people out there that claim special knowledge of what he wants.   I cannot see choosing among the thousands of beliefes out there... every one that I have explored ends up with some cockeyed rule that they claim was handed down to them from someone who spoke directly to god and that all the other religions are simply full of toejam.

If it helps you live a good life... or even get through life... more power to ya.   If you annoy me with it I will no doubt inform you of such.   I guess we will all know one way or the other someday.  I know a lot of very moral people that I wouldn't mind spending an eternity or two with that are agnostic or even atheist... I know some very religious people that I would rather take a beating than be in the same room for 10 minutes with.
lazs

funked said in response to the terror squirrle attack in england that was only stopped by a grandfather with an illeagal air rifle... "Wow if they had a rabid racoon I bet they'd have to call in NATO to bring over a .22 or something."

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #109 on: November 12, 2002, 10:18:03 AM »
I sure did miss you Stevie.

You are still full of Sh** but I sure did miss you. :D


Offline Animal

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« Reply #110 on: November 12, 2002, 11:25:55 AM »

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #111 on: November 12, 2002, 11:51:28 AM »
"If you are an agnostic, that means you dont believe in anything...correct?" - Hortlund

lol - yeah yeah that's it guy, that's about all i can say of your post - do your homework and try again.

"If you think about this for more than one second, you will realize that "we" are the ones who are trying to get our rules on our school walls since our kids go to school too."

- huh? isn't that what i said? not all kids are christians or should be exposed to your fantasy - your post is a little vague to me but i think i get the drift.

keiran - my problem is seeing otherwise rational people holding onto this completely primitive view. your god isn't the only one that's never shown - no one's god ever has not athena or zeus or gonesh or any of the gods the mayans killed over. what are the odds that all these people over all these centuries believed in all these gods (which magically never showed themselves) but somehow yours is true. yours is no different from all the other discarded myths out there.

instead of saying jesus all day - substitute the name 'zambooby'. when you hear your self saying that zambooby is going to come down from the sky and take us all to a special place somewhere in space and that zambooby can watch everyone in the world at once but doesn't like to show himself....you'll hear what it sounds like to the rest of us. silly.

but of course he doesn't show himself because that would tip the scales and we are supposed to pick good over evil on our own right? doesn't that seem kinda weird? can you imagine creating a child and a disease- then making the child highly suceptible to the disease and torturing them forever if he catches it?

these are real questions about your faith that don't add up - if god doesn't want evil then why bother creating it - much less making us drawn to it. i get this "because it's required for balance" - why? if he's god he can set up the universe any damn way he wants or does he play by some higher rules? you can see it as bashing if you want but those are inconsistencies so what's the deal?

imagine if someone killed your wife, you'd want to see them fry right - for how long? imagine 100 years of constant torture - even i would say "ok this guy's had enough - cut him loose, he's paid his debt to me and if i keep torturing him, then i am being wrong by my own standards."

your god not only tortures murderers, and not only for 100 years, but he threatens to torture anyone who doesn't fear and praise him for all eternity regardless of how they live their lives!

your religion entails sadistic sick and violent beliefs in my opinion and i don't feel like i'm bashing christians by asking them to explain that sickness - i've never heard anything other than "it's god's mysterious will" i'm afraid that's not enough.

ps lasz - how do i sign up for your god? do i need to own a healey?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2002, 12:09:29 PM »
mr fish... you may not like my god that much... he does agree with you tho on torture at the end.... torture on earth?  well, everything has a purpose... life is a learning experiance.. some of us have a higher tolerance for pain and are harder to teach...  You may agree that everything that happens to us makes us what we are.    We need some strife.   No one gets out alive but I can't imagine my god torturing anyone for an eternity.   what would be the point?   even if it were true... do I want anything to do with a god that would extort me so?    I believe that god is all around us and that ... far from him not revealing himself he reveals himself constantly...  some of us choose not to see it.   No big deal.   I still believe that a moral atheist is guided by gods presence.  I don't believe that god cares if you believe in him or not.   I don't believe he has given any particular group exclusive trademark rights or power of attorney.
lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #113 on: November 12, 2002, 12:14:12 PM »
Oh... did I forget to mention that god loves horsepower and firearms?   Sex is good too but only if it doesn't get in the way of enjoying horsepower and firearms.
lazs

Offline texace

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« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2002, 12:16:00 PM »
BTW...I was refering to religious things...not salesmen. :)

I remember reading this somewhere...I think it was an answer to a college quiz.

"It's been said that all religions have their own versions of a 'Hell', right? Given the fact taht anyone who does not believe in a religion automatically goes to that religion's Hell, wouldn't every single soul be going to one form of Hell?"

or

"Hell is constantly expanding. Using Boyle's Law, if the amount of souls in Hell expand faster than Hell itself, the temperature of Hell will begin to rise until all Hell breaks loose. But if the amount of souls in hell expands slower than Hell itself, then the temperature of Hell decreases until Hell freezes over."

Ok, so the last one is just humor, but the first one is a valid point, yes? Given the fact I'm atheist, will my soul go to every single religion's Hell? Or will it simply go to the Christian Hell?

Sorry, I don't buy anything religios freaks tell me. What I mean are the Christian Bible thumpers and cross huggers, or the Jehova's Witnesses in their fancy suits and bicycles, or any other religious extremists who tell me that my soul will be saved if I join their religion.

Anyone remember the skit that George Carlin did about religion? "They've actually got you believing there's an invisible man living in the sky..." That's kinda how I feel about the whole thing. To me, religion simply became nothing but people in starched suits taking money to support their churches. I stopped supporting them when I no longer believed what they preached.

Onward!
:D

Offline gofaster

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Maybe we should all come under the Christian rule...
« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2002, 12:22:46 PM »
Are we talking about the same Christian faith here?

====================================
Escaped Ugandan Sex Slaves Battle Inner Demons
Mon Nov 11, 8:59 AM ET
By Matthew Green

GULU, Uganda (Reuters) - Rebels stormed into Hellen's village and clubbed her father to death before dragging her into the Ugandan bush for training as a child soldier.


For the 11-year-old girl, that was just Day One of her ordeal as slave "wife" in the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA), one of Africa's most fearsome rebel groups.


Kidnapped by the raiders who murdered her father, she was forced to stand in a row with 18 other abducted girls as a rebel commander picked her out as his mate. Rape consummated the union. Hellen had yet to reach puberty.


Now 17, she cradles his baby in her arms.


"I love the child, but I hate the father," says Hellen, speaking in a rehabilitation center in the northern town of Gulu. "If he comes here he won't touch my baby," she said, gazing intently at her son Justin suckling on her breast.


Hellen was released in June after nearly seven years of captivity, along with about 100 mothers and babies freed by the rebels during a forced march to escape a Ugandan army offensive.


"They beat us so much the skin peeled off our backs," she said softly, as Justin clasped at her gray and white dress.


The freed mothers were a lucky exception. Since June, rebels have embarked on their worst spree of abductions for years, seizing an estimated 4,000 children, some as young as 9.


Charities in Gulu say an average of at least 10 children are taken every day to serve the LRA, whose leader Joseph Kony is said to be a former altar boy who takes orders from a Holy Spirit and a host of "angels."


HERDED INTO BATTLE


Northern Uganda's eerie landscape of abandoned villages, long grass and misty hills is full of parents waiting in vain for their sons and daughters to come home.

Charities in Gulu estimate that Kony has seized at least 20,000 boys and girls during his 16-year-old rebellion, which has killed hundreds of people and forced half a million to flee.

Abductees are rapidly trained to shoot, then herded into battle against the army's tanks and helicopter gunships.

Anyone caught trying to escape is clubbed to death. Sometimes they have to dig their own graves first. Other children are forced to participate in the killings to instill discipline, according to the testimonies of escapees.

Food is scarce. Children eat wild plants. Most are used as slave laborers. Some are killed as "sorcerers."

For girls, it's worse.

"Once you are given to a man, whether he is young or old, you can't say no," said Esther, 29, who escaped in September after eight years at an LRA base in neighboring Sudan, which says it has now cut off support for the LRA.

Esther said she had been one of 12 wives serving one commander.

"Once the person wants to have sex with you, you have to do it -- if you try to refuse they can beat you with machetes," she said, telling how she carried her baby, Brenda, on a two-week flight through the bush to safety after an army attack.

TEN COMMANDMENTS

Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni has promised to crush the rebels by the end of February, but even if his "Iron Fist" offensive succeeds where others failed, healing the children of war will take years.

The LRA has created a lost generation of teen-agers who can barely read but know how to fire an AK-47 rifle, fueling a vicious circle of war and poverty gripping the north.

Human rights groups say northern discontent is rooted in discrimination under British colonial rule, ethnic massacres under former military ruler Idi Amin, and a feeling of neglect by the government, but Kony seems to have no clear agenda.

The self-styled prophet has in the past said he wanted to overthrow Museveni and rule according to the Biblical Ten Commandments. But to northerners, his motives are a mystery.

For those lucky enough to escape or be rescued by the army, the brainwashing by the LRA is hard to cast aside.

Children at rehabilitation centers look deceptively normal. They play cards, swing their legs from bunk begs and line up for lunch with green and red bowls, some laughing with visitors.

But many suffer mood swings and nightmares, shunning their peers. Some believe that Kony can still read their thoughts.

"Sometimes I dream that they have abducted me again," said Christopher Ojok, 14, who was held for almost two years but escaped in August during a gun battle between the army and rebels. "Sometimes I wake up startled. I think they've caught me," he said, matter-of-factly relating his ordeal.

The abducted boys and girls have grown up starved of love and can hardly speak about the past. Counselors say they must attempt the seemingly impossible -- to forgive their captors.

"When they know you love them they begin to trust you and they can talk to you in detail," said Florence Lakor, who counsels escapees. "Once they open up, the healing can begin."

Even if the children can confront their inner demons, their neighbors may not want them, sometimes seeing them as outcasts.

For the girls, whom some men consider as used goods, finding a husband may be difficult. The centers do not test for HIV-AIDS but counselors say some girls must be infected.

Hellen, who preferred not be identified by her second name, is hoping to learn tailoring, before heading back to her village, where the rebels may again come knocking.

"I'm scared, but there's nowhere else to go," she said.

Offline Animal

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« Reply #116 on: November 12, 2002, 12:28:59 PM »
Hortlund, someone who doesnt believe in anything is a Nihilist. They do not have faith in anything, or so they say.

Atheists have as much faith as religious.
Agnostics have faith in logic.

An agnostic person is someone who believes that the existence of a God or a similar concept can not be proven or disproven by our primitive minds, and to believe that you are 100% sure of one way to the other is to have blind faith (though from all my bible reading I concluded that blind faith is an important and even cherished "virtue" of a good Christian)

You can be agnostic and still lead an even more spiritual life than religious people. You can be agnostic and still apply the teachings of buddha or christ or whatever prophet of your choice to your life, but you are not bound to any of them.

Most importantly, agnostics believe in logic above all else (not to the level of the Star Trek character ;) )
Though logic can be relative at times and skewed by many, that is why we keep a scientific way of thinking to everything.

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #117 on: November 12, 2002, 12:32:45 PM »
amen lasz! that's a pretty nice view

as for the rest of you who see non-christian beliefs as horrid, being agnostic doesn't stop you from being spiritual or having ideas about the unknown - it just says there's no way of knowing - at present- doesn't mean you can't theorize about it.

to me, the fact that we and everything that exists, may have emerged from the same little singularity, suggests that us and everything in it is like a giant entity constantly redefining itself. in that sense i think "god" is just nature from the quark to the galaxy etc etc

- it's you and the rock and the volcano and everything else. my "spiritual" moments if you want to call them that, come when i see how it all fits into one thing and i am able to lose the locus of self for a brief moment. <- that's the most spiritual thing i can imagine.

not believing in some specific god doesn't mean you can't feel the awe that comes from nature. do you fundamentalist types think we just go around getting body piercings and hating the world or something? :)

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #118 on: November 12, 2002, 12:39:42 PM »
I heard over the weekend that less than 1% of all Catholic priests are convicted/charged child molesters. Listening to the media, one would think that less than 1% weren't...

Same here, those without faith make so much noise, you'd think they were (hoped to be?) the majority. They are not and never will be.

Then you have to wonder WHY they make so much noise.

Is it to supress their own doubt & fear?
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Offline Animal

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« Reply #119 on: November 12, 2002, 12:47:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
I heard over the weekend that less than 1% of all Catholic priests are convicted/charged child molesters. Listening to the media, one would think that less than 1% weren't...

Same here, those without faith make so much noise, you'd think they were (hoped to be?) the majority. They are not and never will be.

Then you have to wonder WHY they make so much noise.

Is it to supress their own doubt & fear?


Of course it is.
But it works both ways.