Author Topic: Religious T-shirts (Read 4232 times)

Kieran · « **Reply #180 on:** November 13, 2002, 01:03:10 PM »

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it doesn't matter what you explicitly believe, implicitly you are assigning a value to non-believers.

We're just going to have to disagree on that point. I think you misunderstand the Bible here.

-dead- · « **Reply #181 on:** November 13, 2002, 01:04:58 PM »

"Live by the foma* that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy."

The Books of Bokonon I:5

*Harmless untruths

Apache · « **Reply #182 on:** November 13, 2002, 01:31:06 PM »

What would you have God do to them that oppose him? There is no "sittin' on the fence" here. Either you do or you don't, simple as that.

I as a Christian certainly do not look down on non-believers nor is there a feeling of pity, but rather one of desire, a desire that all chose to follow the righteous path. Not a path mandated by man, by no means.

I am a Christian. I will pray for those who aren't...whether you like it or not.

mrfish · « **Reply #183 on:** November 13, 2002, 02:34:09 PM »

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Originally posted by Apache
I am a Christian. I will pray for those who aren't...whether you like it or not.

listen to yourself- what a completely christian line, you 'pray for us'. you can't hear how condescending that sounds? you don't think that equates to a form of pity?

what if i told you that i hope you'll eventually come to your senses- does that sound like i respect your position? if i want you to change then i must think you're doing something wrong or do christians just really want me to change for an entirely arbitrary reason?

well that is what you and all christians are saying to me - you hope i'll come to my senses and praise god - that alone means you are taking what you believe to be a higher moral position and hoping i'll ascend to it some day.

if you feel my position is equal then why does it matter if i accept yours? making sense yet? drop your christian dope smile for a minute and try to put yourself in my position.

and kieren how am i misunderstanding the bible? the only bible truth my reference needs is the fact that those who don't believe in jesus go to hell. is that not the case or not? why does that question and my simple propositon in my last post bring so much evasion?

mrfish · « **Reply #184 on:** November 13, 2002, 02:38:07 PM »

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Originally posted by Apache
...rather one of desire, a desire that all chose to follow the righteous path. Not a path mandated by man, by no means.

that's just too rich to ignore - i had to bring that back for an encore

maybe we'll chose the righteous path as opposed to our current path which is_______________________?

lazs2 · « **Reply #185 on:** November 13, 2002, 02:38:57 PM »

Its ok apache just remember that it is best to pray for squaddies first... especially those who need it most..

If apache is in heaven I wouldn't mind visiting once in a while... same for rude and probly kieran... probly a lot of nice christian folk will be there. were ever I go tho... bet I meet some pretty interesting folks... been that way so far... don't see why it would change.
lazs

Apache · « **Reply #186 on:** November 13, 2002, 02:40:07 PM »

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Originally posted by mrfish
listen to yourself- what a completely christian line, you 'pray for us'. you can't hear how condescending that sounds? you don't think that equates to a form of pity?

what if i told you that i hope you'll eventually come to your senses- does that sound like i respect your position? if i want you to change then i must think you're doing something wrong or do christians just really want me to change for an entirely arbitrary reason?

well that is what you and all christians are saying to me - you hope i'll come to my senses and praise god - that alone means you are taking what you believe to be a higher moral position and hoping i'll ascend to it some day.

if you feel my position is equal then why does it matter if i accept yours? making sense yet? drop your christian dope smile for a minute and try to put yourself in my position.

and kieren how am i misunderstanding the bible? the only bible truth my reference needs is the fact that those who don't believe in jesus go to hell. is that not the case or not? why does that question and my simple propositon in my last post bring so much evasion?

Nothing is stronger than faith & hope mrfish. You would make one heck of a "warrior for God", but then, you already know that.

Apache · « **Reply #187 on:** November 13, 2002, 02:41:03 PM »

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Originally posted by mrfish
that's just too rich to ignore - i had to bring that back for an encore

maybe we'll chose the righteous path as opposed to our current path which is_______________________?

I'l fill in the blank...obvious.

Apache · « **Reply #188 on:** November 13, 2002, 02:42:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Its ok apache just remember that it is best to pray for squaddies first... especially those who need it most..

If apache is in heaven I wouldn't mind visiting once in a while... same for rude and probly kieran... probly a lot of nice christian folk will be there. were ever I go tho... bet I meet some pretty interesting folks... been that way so far... don't see why it would change.
lazs

lol, you got it my friend.

mrfish · « **Reply #189 on:** November 13, 2002, 03:16:47 PM »

well - then that means the christian doctrine is:

you can't lead a righteous life unless you accept jesus christ and his rules.

any christian care to deny that? if not then doesn't that mean that you believe my life is un-righteous?

and really "i don't want to judge you" as an answer to the above is a cop out

sounds like the case is closed to me

Apache · « **Reply #190 on:** November 13, 2002, 03:23:10 PM »

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Originally posted by mrfish
well - then that means the christian doctrine is:

you can't lead a righteous life unless you accept jesus christ and his rules.

any christian care to deny that? if not then doesn't that mean that you believe my life is un-righteous?

and really "i don't want to judge you" as an answer to the above is a cop out

sounds like the case is closed to me

Un-righteous in the sight of God, you bet ya...as is mine. I'm no less a sinner than you.

Kieran · « **Reply #191 on:** November 13, 2002, 03:24:01 PM »

Evasion? Hardly. I have already categorically stated my belief that the only unforgivable sin is denying Jesus. I have made it clear I am not to judge- it simply isn't my place. My religion tells me that believers go to heaven, and those that refuse to accept Christ don't... but I didn't make those rules. I don't place the value.

Here's where I think you blow it in the argument- if you believe Christians are supposed to assign value to you based on what you believe, you have it wrong. The Christians are here to spread the Word, and to work for God's kingdom. That's it. All the other stuff is left up to God.

I wouldn't DARE tell you that you are going to heaven or hell. I don't even know if I will make it, so what in the world would make me believe I can divine who else will go? More than that though... the Bible says "Judge not lest you be judged". We can speak out about a condition that will bring judgement, but pointing to individuals and stating they are damned is wrong.

To me it sounds as if you take it personally that someone expresses belief in God, as if that person will now look at you as something less once it is clear you do not (which is not true). Of course I want you to believe as I do, but that certainly is no more heinous a crime as you wanting me to believe as you do. To take a worldly viewpoint on the issue it is merely a difference of opinion. And, if you choose the worldly viewpoint, it should be no more important to you than what beverage I prefer. I of course will think there is much more at stake, but if you don't believe, why do you care how I feel about it?

Curval · « **Reply #192 on:** November 13, 2002, 03:28:41 PM »

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Originally posted by Rude
Just a thought....you might want to stop looking at men and their religion...then and only then will you see the truth.

Rude...I agree with this statement entirely and the problem is that "men" have really screwed up my belief (and others who have posted here) in organised religion...of any sort.

The sheer volume of blood spilled in the name of God is man's doing.

The abuse of children at the hands of priests...again..man's doing.

The legacy of The Vatican and its monetary and political power world-wide...men built it...ran it...and continue to eek money out of the poor in society to maintain it.

I could go on and on...

I say this because the only way I am ever going to see the light is through my own eyes...not the eyes of someone who holds him/herself out to be God's representative on earth. Those people have done more to push me away from religion than my inability to prove or disprove the existance of God ever has.

I respect you for your belief in God..and frankly I am a bit jealous.

~~Curval~~

mrfish · « **Reply #193 on:** November 13, 2002, 03:42:02 PM »

can non-christians lead a righteous life kieran?

your god gives you the answer, you don't have to make a judgment, you don't have to think mean things- it's written down for you - if you believe in his word then you believe in his conslusions.

he said it was impossible so if you believe what he says then you also believe it's impossible. if you believe it is impossible then you believe i can not lead a righteous life because i don't belive in god.

do you need a scatter chart or a musical accompaniment? how much clearer proof do you need?

one of my greatest aversions to christians is their squeamishness in living with the consequences of their beliefs. you can't think that someone is impossible of leading a righteous life and not be making a moral judgment.

the fact that you think you are a sinner too means nothing - you feel that your sins are redeemed by your faith and thus you are back where you started - the message is "whew, i was a sinner but i found god, maybe someday you will abandon your sinful life and come over."

the message is unquestionably a moral judgment.

Kieran · « **Reply #194 on:** November 13, 2002, 03:57:37 PM »

Don't you bandy words like "righteous" and "good" around interchangebly? What specifically do you mean?

If by "righteous" you mean "Godly", as in "perfect", no way anyone can do it- believer or nonbeliever.

If by "good" you mean "decent", as in "doing well to others", then of course people can be good.

What cannot happen is someone living a blameless life, regardless of faith. Every single person is fallible.

And where do you leap to the conclusion I am avoiding my responsibility by not assigning your moral value? By all means, include the charts and music. This attempt to paint believers into this corner you have prepared isn't going to work, because believers aren't supposed to hold nonbelievers in contempt the way you apparently think they should, which I assume is the basis of your resentment.

Salvation is a personal relationship with God- you and God, no one else involved. I can't tell you if you're living well enough for God and can get into heaven. I can only tell you what is written, then it's your ball. I cannot and will not be set up as your (or anyone's) judge.