Author Topic: Why the La7 is so Uber(important)  (Read 2483 times)

Offline joeblogs

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Endurance w/ R2800-8
« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2002, 07:01:05 PM »
Again thanks to the information in F4UDOA's post.

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Offline joeblogs

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Endurance of the La-& and Ash-82FN engine
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2002, 07:02:41 PM »
Endurance of the La-7 and its engine

In my preceding post I used the data presented by people smarter than I (and better librarians too) to present hard numbers on the endurance of the US heavy iron navy fighters.  This was an easy exercise because of all the information made available.  

Now I turn to the La-7 and its Ash-82FN engine, where we have a lot of information, but not all we need.  We also saw some inconsistent information.  I hope to convince you that the technique I used for the plentiful American data can tells us something about the Russian data.

The bottom line is that the La-7’s engine seems about as efficient as its American counterparts, possibly exceptional at very high output settings.  That said, no matter what power settings you consider, An F6f or an F4u-1 running on internal fuel only should always fly for twice as much time, or more, as an La-7.  It turns out that, possibly entirely by coincidence, most of the complicated issues we argued about in this thread simply can’t change the general conclusion.  I wonder if that would be true if we looked at other light planes with small fuel tanks…

Some background on the La-7 and its engine

The 1944 edition of the LA-7 weighs in at 7164 lbs (3250 kg) gross.  It has a maximum speed of 408 statute MPH (658 KMH), Operating range is 413 statute miles 665 km).  See Gordon and Khazanov Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War.

The Ash-82FN is a 2514 CU (41.2 liter) radial engine, just a little smaller than Wright’s 14-cylinder version of the cyclone.  Its cylinders are derived from the cyclone, but with a shorter stroke.  The engine could generate 1850 HP when run flat out on 100 octane fuel.  Its rated power was about 1460 HP.  Note that front line units typically had fuel of 90-95 octane fuel.

By the time the La-7 is being produced the engine benefits from direct injection and over-boosting (i.e. more than 1 atmosphere of pressure in the cylinders) at high and low super charger speeds.

Tilt’s November 4 post includes a trove of flight test information and other data for the La-7 as of the last 9 months of the war.  It is from a translation of a Russian report on tests of several production models.

From that post we know for certain the fuel tanks is 460 liters or 122 US gallons.  There’s a great deal of information on the combat maneuverability of the plane, which we usually never see.  I hope someone has verified that the AH flight model tracks this pretty well.  

Endurance for the La-7 compared to USN Heavy Iron

Tilt’s report spells it out so no calculations, other than converting to American measurements is necessary (see the attached table).  Running the plane at what HTC calls military power (2400 RPM at 40 inches HG) provides a brief 32 minute ride at 16,500 feet, 35 minutes at 3,300 feet.  Plug whatever fuel multiplier you want into this and its clear the La-7 has very short legs.

Compare the F6f with full internal fuel load running at a comparable engine setting (2550 RPM, 44 inches HG, 7k alt) and you have an estimated endurance of 68 minutes (see my previous post). Just shy of running these planes to the firewall, the F6f flies about twice as long as the La-7.  The La-7 is burning 164-6 gallons an hour while the F6f is burning 34 percent more (220 gallons an hour).

Let’s compare the planes at a cruise setting.  On full internal fuel, the La-7’s maximum range is 413 miles and maximum flying time is 1 hour 45 minutes at 3,300 feet.  At the most economical settings tested, it burns 52-5 gallons and hour.

My analysis of the SAC data (see my previous post) shows the F6f can fly 3 hours and twenty minutes, burning about 75 gallons an hour, reaching a peak altitude of 15k.  So the F6f can cruise for twice as long while burning about 42 percent more fuel an hour.  

In other words, power settings do not affect the relative endurance of the F6f and the La-7.  In either case, the F6f on internal fuel only should last twice as long as the La-7.  

Note that my result is very conservative.  I could have used the minimum fuel consumption numbers from F4U1DOA’s charts.  In that case, the F6f is burning essentially the same amount of fuel per hour as the La-7 and it fly’s 5 hours or more on internal fuel.  I don’t use those numbers because I don’t think there are very many pilots in Aces that would be comfortable holding these planes in the air with only 500 HP and a steady hand.

Specific Fuel Consumption of the Ash-82FN engine

One of the problems we had in the thread is that we did not have good information on the fuel economy of this engine.  Thanks to Tilt’s treasure of data we now know all we need about the plane’s endurance, and a lot more about its performance as a fighter.  Before we saw that data, we were trying to match up data on horsepower, fuel capacity, and endurance from disparate sources.  

This is what AH tells us about the Shvetsov M-82FN:

Emergency Power- 48" @ 2400 RPM (5 minutes) [probably should be 2500 RPM]
Military Power- 41" @ 2400 RPM
Normal Power- 36" @ 2200 RPM
Max Cruise- 30" @ 2000 RPM

We can use these numbers to infer power settings in some of our other data.  For example, its likely that near sea level the first setting is consistent with the 1850 HP number we’ve seen and the second setting is probably consistent with the engine’s rated horsepower of 1460, although Tilt has some numbers suggesting rated horsepower was 1650.

For example, at one point we had a calculation that at the engine’s rated horsepower (1460 HP at 2400 RPM and 40 inches HG) fuel consumption was 310-55 liters and hour.  Could this be right?  What is the implied Specific Fuel Consumption?  355 liters is 94 gallons and weighs 563 lbs (I am rounding).  That implies and SFC of 0.39.  

That is not an impossible number for a really good radial engine running on a lean fuel mixture.  But there is no way this engine will generate its rated power in auto lean if no American radial can.  For the very good P&W R2800, SFC is 0.8 at normal power and 0.9 to 1.0 at the engines rated power.  Both settings require an auto rich fuel mixture.  

Suppose the 310-55 number was kilograms per hour rather than liters.  In that case the resulting SFC is 0.55 lbs/hp/hr, certainly reasonable for a radial engine on auto lean, but still too low for an auto rich setting, which this almost certainly has to be.

I wonder if this range of numbers is really a reference to range in kilometers.

Let’s use Tilt’s flight test data to compute a more plausible SFC for the Ash-82FN.  At an altitude of 3,300 feet, 2400 RPM and 40 inches HG, the La-7 is burning 164 gallons an hour.  These engine settings and the low altitude suggest we should be generating the engines rated power of 1460 HP.  In that case, we have SFC = 0.67, which is remarkably good.  If the engine was about as efficient as the P&W R2800, we should expect it to develop only 1,090 HP.

What is the Ash-82FN’s specific fuel consumption at a cruise setting?  Using Tilt’s flight test data we see the engine settings are something like 1500 RPM at about 23 inches HG.  We know the fuel consumption, but we don’t know the resulting horsepower.  Suppose the engine is as efficient as a contemporary Double Wasp can possibly be (0.44).  Then the resulting horsepower would be

HP = (Lbs/hr)*(1/SFC) = 331/0.44 = 752.

Suppose we use the trick from my analysis of the cruise settings of the F6f.  At the cruise, the engine is generating about 60 percent of normal power, which worked out to be 50 percent of the engine’s rated power.  Fifty percent of the Ash-82FN’s rated power is 730 HP.  That would make the engine’s specific fuel consumption at a cruise setting something like 331/730 = 0.45, a very respectable but still plausible number.

Other modeling issues

An important question all game designers have to answer is whether they want to model aircraft based on data generated by prototypes or production models.  For the US, UK, and Germany there would not be much difference.  That is emphatically not the case for Russia, where production aircraft were always 20-40 MPH slower than prototypes and had significant problems with reliability.  

Russian engine designers were able to get significant performance gains throughout the war, but for many engines, they did not get service lives up to anything like the American standard.  The Ash-82FN engine was not even mass produced until the fall of 1943.  At the time their service lives were about 100-150 hours.  By the war, the American engines could go about 500 hours and typically longer before an overhaul.  Even when the engines were fine, the propellers had flaws and the finish of production aircraft was typically poor.  

In the case of the La-7, the same engine in La-5 broke down more often, in part because poor design of the air intake resulted in more dirt in the engine.  Engine failures in the La-7 were very common occurrences.  

None of these things are captured in games, and that is why many late war Japanese and Russian planes perform better than they typically did in the actual war.  What's more, these planes never accounted for a significant share of the front line inventories of those countries.  

Is it wrong for a game to ignore such things?  Depends on the philosophy of the game.  There’s lots of things we might not want a game to model.

-Blogs

Offline joeblogs

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La-7 endurance chart
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2002, 07:09:06 PM »
This thanks to the flight test data Tilt posted.

-Blogs

Offline F4UDOA

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2002, 09:18:04 PM »
Jeez!!

Joe Blogs, you make me look like an amateur.

That is some great work. I noticed you copyrighted those charts. I'll save them but I won't repost without your permission.

I emailed the data provided by Tilt to the Q&A forum a few days before HTC killed the thread. Although something tells me HTC is not really concerned with the result or not interested in addressing it. Notice in a 100+ post thread no answers from HT or Pyro.

Your extra data is the Coup De Grace. I have been a little suspicious of the La-7 for a while. It flys so well in every aspect of combat. So what is the advantage? Power to weight obviously like most Euro types seem to be better than there American counter parts. So what was the historic draw back, range. Check the numbers and viola. There is your answer.

The question I have now is this. Did HTC even the playing field for light A/C for gameplay reasons? I ask this because of other AH birds like

1. Spitfire
2. Me109G-10
3. NIK2
4. Yak-9U

All of these uber birds seem to have endurance that far exceeds their historic capability which puts them at a huge advantage of fighting A/C like the P-47, F4U and F6F which have to carry an extra 1,000+LBS of fuel to maintain the same endurance as these short legged birds.

The question of Soviet A/C using prototype data and higher octane fuel I haven't even started to question.

Offline mustang

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #109 on: November 14, 2002, 09:59:22 PM »
Get rid of the fuel multiplier.  It sucks, and really hinders the planes w/ short ranges.  Take a full load of gas in a Jug, (no DT's) and climb to 20k... then enjoy your glide back down cause yer already out of fuel.  And don't give me the "if there were no fuel multiplier then alt monkeys would be everywhere" argument.  With the enormous use of the p51, and its extremely long range, this should already be a problem.  However, as we know, it is not.  Giving the planes their true ranges would make for a much better MA.  

Stang

Offline HoHun

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Re: Endurance of USN Hvy Iron...
« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2002, 01:08:40 AM »
Hi Blogs,

>Here are their numbers for engines of the same era:

>Wright Cyclone (R 1820)   87 octane      0.57
>Wright Cyclone (R 2600)   100 octane   0.47
>P&W Double Wasp (R 2800)   100/130 octane   0.42

A good calibration point for the Ash-82FN would be the specific fuel consumption of the BMW801D (which not only shared the general layout but actually the same injection pump). As a minimum, it consumption was 272 g/kWh according to von Gersdorff et al.

With regard to the engine of interest, a German data sheet for the M-82FNV gives specific fuel consumption at take-off power as 442 g/kWh.

Since these measures (sensibly) are based on fuel mass rather than on volume, my question is now how to convert the imperial measurements to the international system? I'm sure the consumption numbers you quote require certain fuel characteristics, most importantly a precisely defined specific weight.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Tilt

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #111 on: November 15, 2002, 04:49:37 AM »
Good work Joe blogs................

I think we can all acknowledge that several comparable fuel/range models in AH are unbalanced.............

infact we knew this from the Mossie and Ju88..........further F4uDOA paints a convincing arguement that some AC are limited in combat ability due to carrying more fuel for a lesser range.

If we accept the above I would ask if any work has been done to establish the AH model for reduced manifold and rpm settings................

rpm settings never "seem" to make any considerable effect on range......and manifold settings do not "seem" to have the effect of more than doubling range when set to cruise settings........

It seems to me that an La7 with an "economy cruise range" of  100 minutes is a very viable MA tool.........if true cruise range settings were available...........

given all this we should be careful for what we ask........... this could be a mamoth undertaking by HTC to cure in one sweep of development and any changes would have to be trickle fed during other onging development.
Ludere Vincere

Offline joeblogs

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Replies
« Reply #112 on: November 15, 2002, 08:35:56 AM »
You are free to post or email the charts and tables.  

I copyright simply to ensure that someone down the line can't tell me they had a copyright and I cannot distribute my own work.  But as we all know this is simply a presentation of underlying data that is in the public domain.

You guys are the experts, I am not.  And I am amazed at the data you find.  HoHun please send me links on the BMW 801D, that was next on my agenda.  Gordan and Khazanov argue the Ash-82 was superior to that engine in a number of ways and I'd like to test that.  Even so, the engine is only superior so long as it runs!

Most of the ideas in my post were already contained in the thread, but I assembled them in a way that seemed the clearest to me.  It does turn out we had enough data to answer a few more questions than we thought we could.

A quick way to do all the metric conversions is by using the following web site:

http://www.admiralmetals.com/metric_conv.htm

I simply drop all the data into a spreadsheet and run it through a conversion table.  I find it much easier to think in terms of Englsih measurements, but the rest of the world probably does not.

I always convert to US gallons and I assume a gallon of fuel is 6lbs.  The critical factor is octane as the higher the octane the more energy per pound of fuel.  I do not know if octane affects the specific gravity of the fuel in any significant way.

As for modeling in AH it would be useful to verify if there is a systematic departure between the endurance of light planes with small fuel loads and heavier ones that carry more fuel relative to what we can find in historical data.  I think there was some evidence of this in the begining of the thread, but I don't know the power settings of the tests that were run (it may well be that power settings don't matter).  

My favorite light weight is the 109f, which has short legs, but are they longer than they should be?

Suppose there is a systematic distortion?  What should HTC do about it?  My personal preference is towards more historical realism but I have to concede others have different preferences and it is entirely possible that too much faithfulness to the history might result in a less pleasant games (imagine modeling the ubiquitous oil leaks and electrical failures).

-blogs
« Last Edit: November 15, 2002, 08:42:43 AM by joeblogs »

Offline ra

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #113 on: November 15, 2002, 09:00:50 AM »
Quote
Take a full load of gas in a Jug, (no DT's) and climb to 20k... then enjoy your glide back down cause yer already out of fuel.


Not in any Jug I've flown in AH.

ra

Offline HoHun

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Re: Replies
« Reply #114 on: November 15, 2002, 12:04:14 PM »
Hi Blogs,

>HoHun please send me links on the BMW 801D, that was next on my agenda. Gordan and Khazanov argue the Ash-82 was superior to that engine in a number of ways and I'd like to test that.

My reference is a book, "Die deutschen Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke" by von Gersdorff et al., so I don't have a URL ready, sorry! :-( But it would be interesting to know in which regard the M-82 was considered superior.

>I always convert to US gallons and I assume a gallon of fuel is 6lbs.

Well, that gives a density of 720 g/L, while the German weight data for the La-5FN indicates that their fuel had a density of 770 g/L. My physics book agrees with the 720 g/L for aviation fuel, but quotes 780 g/L for automotive fuel, so it obviously depends a lot on the exact composition of the fuel.

By the way, are you sure you quoted the fuel consumption values correctly? When I convert them to the international system, they're not even close to the values from von Gersdorff. Of course it could be my conversion!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline joeblogs

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Re: Re: Replies
« Reply #115 on: November 15, 2002, 02:11:57 PM »
Thanks for the reference, I'll have to try to locate a copy.  

The relative comparison of the BMW801D with the Ash-82 FN comes from Gordon and Khazanov's Soviet Aircraft of the 2nd World War.  I think this is a very good book and the performance numbers for the La-7 in that book correspond to Tilt's flight test data.  That said, I think the authors do some editorializing here and there when they don't have hard numbers.  That's why I want to get numbers on the BMW engine.

I did my work quickly so I could easily have made a mistake somewhere.

From Tilt's data I converted from liters to US gallons using the formula 1 liter = 0.264 liquid gallons (not dry), or conversely
1 gallon = 3.785 liters.  

For the La-7 table I converted kilomters to US statute miles using 1 km = 0.621 mile or 1 mile = 1.609 km.

I was worried about getting the MAP correct though as I could not remember if the US measure is in linear or cubic inches.  I assumed both the metric and US measures should be linear and converted them accordingly.  This gave me numbers that looked spot on to other data presented in the thread.

Your numbers on specific gravity of fuels are very interesting.  The difference is about 7 percent, which could matter.  It would change and estimate of specific fuel consumption of 0.50 (in gallons per horsepower) to about 0.54, or 0.46 depending on the bias.

I may have some numbers on the weight and volume of fuel in the La-7 and that can be used to check for the assumed specific gravity.

I wonder if adjustments need to be made for specific gravity?  There are some (old) papers on aviation fuels I may be able to scare up.

BTW, it should be easy to translate KwH into horsepower, but I haven't looked up the equation.

-Blogs

Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Blogs,

...My reference is a book, "Die deutschen Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke" by von Gersdorff et al., so I don't have a URL ready, sorry! :-( But it would be interesting to know in which regard the M-82 was considered superior.

>I always convert to US gallons and I assume a gallon of fuel is 6lbs.

Well, that gives a density of 720 g/L, while the German weight data for the La-5FN indicates that their fuel had a density of 770 g/L. My physics book agrees with the 720 g/L for aviation fuel, but quotes 780 g/L for automotive fuel, so it obviously depends a lot on the exact composition of the fuel.

By the way, are you sure you quoted the fuel consumption values correctly? When I convert them to the international system, they're not even close to the values from von Gersdorff. Of course it could be my conversion!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2002, 09:21:21 PM by joeblogs »

Offline gripen

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #116 on: November 15, 2002, 02:36:10 PM »
I don't know exact numbers but the aviation fuels used by the Russians were indeed heavier (weight/volume) than other fuels used by Finnish airforce.

gripen

Offline Daff

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #117 on: November 15, 2002, 03:32:46 PM »
"With DT's nothing (single engine fighter wise) could go as far as the Mustang."

The P-47N had quite a bit further range than the P-51.

Daff