In Britain we've never had more than 100 gun murders in any year

[Steve]

Angus, I take great affront that you suggest the Americans might have sided with the Germans, were it not for Roosevelt. While many Americans had an isolationist approach to the world,  there was NO significant movement to support the Germans.  any informantion you have on this is either contrived, or simply incorrect.  I understand that emotions are running high in this thread but that comment was grossly out of line.
Your comments about the brits and their efforts as opposed to ours in WWII:  The Brits did what I consider an heroic job of stemming the tide of German advance.  However, they could not have accomplished this without the lifeline from the US.  There was a time that the brits recognized and appreciated this, just as Americans appreciated the heroic acts of the British people.  Memory fades and people change history. Now the US is villified in some of the very nations we bled for as a country.  The Afghanies and Saudies hate us...yet we are the LARGEST supplier of aid to them... and we were BEFORE 9-11....tell me,  what sense does that make?

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Angus
My dear British fellows, I am totally with you on this subject. You have also shot down your rivals here with better logics, hehe.

Better logics?  Fool yourselves some more.  Rivals?! I've kept the gloves on so far.  Rivals?  I think the score is 2-0 then.

Steve was it the Kimber Classic?  My buddy has one, I might have to get one myself.

Dowding - you can't own one anyways.  Well, probably for a foxhunt or something.

You guys are implementing British twists on US issues.  We are a more diverse populus than GB.   You don't live here, you see our politics through CNN (don't tell me you believe the media).  Your country basically created tabloids.

I shoot for sport, and again......my gun has never been pointed at anyone.......yet.  If it does, someone else made me do it

Masher

[Steve]

Masher, it's a Stainless Kimber Gold Match  .45 ( I believe they are now available in .40 as well)

[Dowding]

I couldn't own half a kilo of finest Columbian legally even if I wanted to.

Does that make my point clearly enough for you? I'm not interested in guns in the slightest, in exactly the same I'm not interested in owning illegal drugs. I have no desire to have either.

Yet again, as I've stated over and over in this thread, I have no interest in the gun debate in the US.

[Angus]

Steve, you have a nice point, and I mostly agree with you. Sorry, have to confess that I was flaming/teasing a bit.
However, the US did abuse the Brits dismay a bit in the beginning.
Britain was basically bankrupted by the first major arms/ships/planes purchases from the US, as early as 1940/41.
Oh, have some more to add. Will in a few hours..
Ta

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Angus
Steve, you have a nice point, and I mostly agree with you. Sorry, have to confess that I was flaming/teasing a bit.
However, the US did abuse the Brits dismay a bit in the beginning.
Britain was basically bankrupted by the first major arms/ships/planes purchases from the US, as early as 1940/41.
Oh, have some more to add. Will in a few hours..
Ta

Britain entered the war in may 1940 and paid for arms from the US only through November 1940.

After that, the US "Lend-Lease" took effect: We lent all the arms and equipment to the UK at no charge with the idea that when the war was over, we would get the equipment back.

quote on the matter from Winston Churchill's " Memoirs of The Second World War" :
"I described this to Parliment later as".....
"The most unsordid act in the history of any nation" " There was no provision for repayment. There was not even to be a formal account kept in dollars or Sterling."

I believe that only the November Presidential election and political climate slowed the US from helping sooner. The US new that it would have to go to war and that the fate of the US was tied to the fate of the UK. ( At that time, Russia should be considered an enemy)

We did what was right, just as the UK would have done for us if the situation was reversed.

Now Russia..... that's for another thread, but I loath what they did and feel they reaped what they sewed in the war.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Your swiss cheese logic is just that. It makes me wonder how you get on at the grocery store, particularly when confronted by the fresh fruit section selling apples and oranges.

I'll ignore the usual jingoistic roadkill that your so apt to spout and ask you to point out where I have said the US should ban guns or follow the UK's path on gun control. I'd like you to find the post where I "tell us we should adopt your wussy ways and listen to your nanny "home office".

If not, then I accept your apology in advance.

Lastly, I don't live in fear of getting burgled or mugged or murdered. And I don't own a gun. I must not be living in the crime ridden hell hole that is the 'pissant little country' otherwise known as the UK, right?

Shuckins - I'm happy with this situation. I'm happy that we have extremely low gun crime. The chances of Great Britain, which has had one the most liberal and progressive society in the world for 400 years suddenly going fascist or communistic are very slim. I'm more likely to get shot by an intruder, I should think. Which is quite ironic.

Do I support the ban? I'd prefer for people to have the right to shoot at clubs and keep registered weapons at home. But I'm not overly concerned with it - I don't want or need a firearm in my house.

Totally agree. If I had the desire to own a gun in the UK its more than likely i belong to a gang which seeks to emulate the 'gangs of america'.The recent rise in gun culture in the UK is linked to gangs and drug dealing.Theres a strong conection to jamacan yardies too.Now I have seen these yardies and Im aware there are some that carry guns but as its such a small number it really odoesnt concern me much.Its unlikely in the UK that I'll ever even see a real handgun let alone get shot by one.

Seems to me thats a better way to live. I like dowding dont really care about it because it isnt a major concern with regards to my or my families safety.

Can you Americans say the same? thought not.

[Steve]

Hazed: "Can you Americans say the same? thought not


Hazed, you just don't get it.. and unless you open your anti-american mind you never will.  Let me sum up my previous post:  the  geographics of our nations are greatly different.  If GB were located by land mass to the drug supplies of South America, you'd have the same problems the U.S has with drugs and guns.  Americans are proud to have the right to carry guns it's true, it represents our many freedoms... it doesn't mean we all carry them.  In fact only a  small percentage of Americans own guns... even less carry them.  Our Liberal immigration laws and proximity to South America is the root of our gun violence problems, the guns themselves are not.  So pull your head out of your ass, it's not that the folk of GB are any better or more civilized than Americans, you are just fortunate to that your country is in a different part of the world.  By the way, GB has a MUCH higher crime rate than the US...why?  because you don't allow your citizens to own guns.  Just read the following link  that I pulled up today w/ a simple Yahoo search. "British crime rate"

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/3/21/205139.shtml

The below link shows that England reported that 26% of it's people were victims of crime.  The US had only 21%... significantly lower.  The first link also depicts how the british vastly under-report crime when compared to how the US reports it.  In spite of this discrepancy, England has a full 5% higher crime rate.  so Hazed, keep your smug remarks to yourself... your Country has a MUCH higher crime rate than mine.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/data/crimeMyths.php

[hazed-]

total crap.

take a look at how many murders were commited in LA and compare it to London. I garentee the rate is higher in the US.

As to me being anti-american what the f*ck you talking about?

All im saying is the way we have it over here you as a human being and members of your immediate family are less likely to be shot. You saying this isnt true?

As to your proximity to south america so what? take a look at eastern europe and africa why dont you?
so rather than imply i need to take my head out of my bellybutton perhaps you should try to veiw your own country objectively.

I was in the US last year and while i was there in LA there was a murder about 2 miles down the road! I was in my hotel room with friends when a resteraunt we had driven past the day before was robbed.The clerk was killed by gunshot wounds.Your Tv then went on to describe other incidents that had happened in the same area.I was also talking to police officers on the beach in LA and they warned us to leave the beach before it got dark as there was a likelyhood we could be singled out by drug users/ex gang members who frequent the beach!.we laughed about it for weeks.
Now I suggest you go to any beach in the UK and ask a policeman if you are likely to be robbed. It just doesnt happen.

Now i realise this means little in the overall picture but COME ON!! we decided to move on to the grand canyon a little earlier because LA just didnt feel that safe.

The US is well known to be a dangerous country to visit if you go to the wrong places and yes the same could be said of the UK. BUT in the UK you are unlikely or at least less likely to be shot ergo more likely to survive.

what else can i say?
as to your first link its quite hilarious that you claim we in the UK under-report whilst the US is somehow perfect in its reports.Your more likely to find BOTH countries act rather much the same.Neither wish to lose tourism and neither wish to admit to high crime rates.The differnce WE are talking about is the likelyhood of being shot.I still maintain youre more likely to be shot in the US.

[Steve]

I never said the US reporting is perfect.. I said it reports crime differently... the article supports that.  
so you are predicating your knowledge of American crime by a visit to L.A.?  Let me clear something up for you, there are less Americans in L.A. than foreigners.  Crime in L.A. is bad... but it hardly represents the bulk of America.. in fact it has more crime than almost any city in the States.. so your view is anything but objective, so don't spew to me about objectivity.   Face it Hazed.. the crime rate is HIGHER in England than here.  You call the articles I pulled up "crap".  how many more would you like me  to pull up that say the same thing?  Hazed, I own beachfront property in the US... never been robbed.. never even heard of a crime being committed in the area... you know toejam about what goes on here.. but the stats that are readily available in NUMEROUS articles say that crime is HIGHER in England...how can you denounce that?  Do all of the sources lie in some great conspiracy?  Eastern Europe and Africa may very well have drug problems... you would know more than me. But you don't know if the problem is worse than South America or Mexico.  What we both know is that England doesn't share over 1000 miles of unsettled border with one of the most corrrupt, drug infested places in the world(Mexico).  Any place in the world is dangerous if you wander into the "wrong part of town".  The gun violence and murder in London is increasing at alarming rates.. according to more sources on the 'net... want them?  or will you denounce them all as crap too?  Hazed you may not like it, but crime is MORE prevalent in England than in the US.  Both countries... almost all countries have crime problems... just face it.  Now, if you still aren't concerned about your family's safety, I pray that your ignorance remains bliss.  Me, I've taken the conservative approach and armed myself...at least one British family is grateful to for it.  Hazed, I'm glad you feel safe where you live... but feeling safe isn't being safe. Frankly, I live in what is considered an upper middle class neighborhood.. the only crime in my town is the silly stuff... juvenile antics...but I work in a big city, and thus am prepared what the dangers of the big city can bring... feel safe Hazed... but  if you are with me.. you will BE safe.  God bless the US and England

[Angus]

Here  comes the bulk of America.
Does seem that you DO fire your guns sometimes    .....

[Angus]

Not to mention other applications.....

[Angus]

Steve, I finally found what I promised. I remember seeing something similar elsewhere, but it's a thick book and I haven't got there yet.,
anyway, strongly put as it is, I would like to know if this is really correct...

QUOTE:

IN ONE OF HIS FAMOUS SPEECHES Churchill asked America 'Give us the tools and we will finish the job'. But America wouldn't 'give' anything without payment. After two years of war, Roosevelt had drained Britain dry, stripping her of all her assets in the USA, including real estate and property. The British owned Viscose Company, worth £125 million was liquidated, Britain receiving only £87 million. Britain's £1,924 million investments in Canada were sold off to pay for raw materials bought in the United States. To make sure that Roosevelt got his money, he dispatched the American cruiser, 'Louisville ' to the South African naval base of Simonstown to pick up forty two million Pounds worth of British gold, Britain's last negotiable asset, to help pay for American guns and ammunition!. Not content with stripping Britain of her gold and assets, in return for 50 old destroyers, he demanded that Britain transfer all her scientific and technological secrets to the USA. Also, he demanded leases on the islands of Newfoundland, Jamaica, Trinidad and Bermuda for the setting up of American military and naval bases in case Britain should fall. (Of the 50 lend lease destroyers supplied to Britain, 9 were lost in WW11)

QUOTE. Lord Beaverbrook was later to exclaim 'The Japanese are our relentless enemies, and the Americans our un-relenting creditors'.

That's also a "tard for" you Rc51, hehe.
Anyway, although we disagree on the gun policy, at least we agree on the problem. To many people die in the streets

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Soviet
I don't care what Europe does with guns.  The thing I fear is that Europe is rubbing it off onto us.  We already have all these stupid bans.

This is the truth of it................

We Brits want guns banned...... our government wants it .......our opposition parties want it  ...... our media is in support of it....... the massive  majority of our populace (when asked) support it.

Guns are not  a subject of our constitution..........

Nobody here even remotely believes that crime would go down if guns were available to the average citizen....... (here the idea is laughable)

We (Brits in general) do not link guns to freedom........to us it's a ridiculous concept.

We are broadly happy with a 5 year sentance for the illegal possesion of a fire arm.

Now of course there will be a few crack pots who may hold an alternative view here. But few thinking people can claim the gun to be a benefit to British society.

In the States the perspective is totally different......... its difficult for a Brit to understand just how different.................. equally its difficult for Americans to understand the view of the average Brit in this respect.

You only have to live a while in each country and read newspapers listen to radios and talk to people and you realise how different it is.

But Soviets point is the one that fuels these debates.......... UK gun laws and whether they work here or not are banded about between US pro gun lobbyists and US anti gun lobbyists to fuel each others arguements for fear of the consequences should they not.

Statistics are bent, twisted and misrepresented............... . apples are compared with lemons from both sides.

Brits are refered to as slaves of their establisment (laughable) I have even seen apparantly thinking people consider our democracy still subject to the whims of Royalty and the feudal system.

The US view of appropriate defence of self , kin and property is totally different to ours. We consider the shooting of an intruder without knowledge of threat excessive........ Americans consider this view the one of a fool who would hand him self/family/property over to the will of any criminal.

The right to own a gun is enshrined in an Americans constitution it is a part of the document that describes his/her freedom and civil rights ....... its a part of what makes him/her American.

To us its something that we don't really want or need.

[lazs2]

tilt... you are correct mostly.   I also feel that steve is correct.  If you had our borders lasw and geography your population might feel the need to be armed.   If you had as vibrant an economy as ours you might feel differently..   lot's of differences.... there are reasons that guns are a "right" in our constitution and it is probly one of the defining differences in our cultures.... A place where our cultures can never meet.   At least I hope not.... for both our sakes.

I hope your population continues to get along without guns if that is what you want and I insist that ours continue to have the right to keep and bear arms.

crowbaby said... "Ah, now i've lost interest completely in this whole topic. Either you've run out of arguments and sunk to inane, distasteful jokes, or you really mean that, in which case i suggest turning your precious guns on yourself."

so... crow... you are not aginst guns or gun killings... you just want to pick and choose who dies?  You are a very violent man.   Lose and arguement and then wish death on the opponent? for shame... tsk tsk..
lazs