Capitalism is a pain in the arse

[GRUNHERZ]

Urchin:

The reason is simple communist's are inherently undemocratic because they trhink they know better than the people do and thats why they want to control everything.

Like a centralized run and planned econmoy.
Like extreme forced redistribution of income.
Like tight control of press, and no freedom of press.
Like tight restrictions on fredom of movement.
Like tight controls on freedom of emplyement and carreer choice.
Like tight controls on labor rights and collective barging.
Like no real attempt at democracy.

They cannot accept people making the decision for themselves or having any say in it.  When there are "elections" in a communist syatem there is usually only one candidate - why do you think that is. If people protest they are shot, torured jailed and reeducated. All communist governments have had and do have these policies, it is an inherent part of them.  It does not excuse communism if another failed policy has them to some part as well. Are you saying it's ok commuists murder political opponents en masse because Nazi's did it? I dont think so.

trotsky:

Honestly if it's so great in cuba why dont you move there yourself? I hear Cuba's politcal prisoner jails are just beutiful in the spring. In the summer they get too hot and the guards are a bit agitated but spring is poerfect.

And it's interesting trotsky that you as a liuberal who claimes he believes so strongly in human rights and freedom of exprresion likes cuba so much even with it's well documented human rights abuses and opression.  

Urchin you should take note of this particulary. Trotsky obviously sees that the existance and prseservation  some cracckpot socialist/communist socio-economic policy as exists in cuba takes precedence over human and individal rights. Otherwise he wouldnt hold cuba in such high regard given its vast human rights issues.  You see how communists like him are inherently undemocratic and against the interests of people in general?

[Dowding]

Cuba is a great holiday destination. In 10-20 years, you'll have loads of American tourists there too. Castro isn't immortal.

I like to go after the communists in here and the osama bin laden loving USA haters.

That statement is simply abnormal. It's weird. You're chasing ghosts and those ghosts just turn out to be people who disagree with you. In the end you just appear to be some unstable, hot-headed fool without the self-control to disagree and remain civil, even on an internet BBS.

Now, no-one is perfect, everyone gets angry and regrets some of the things they say, here and in real life - but your justifications for your behaviour paint a picture of someone who enjoys being abusive, and enjoys feeding off his emotions -  'but only in the O-club'.

Excuse me if I don't believe you.

[straffo]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

Like a centralized run and planned econmoy.
Like extreme forced redistribution of income.
Like tight control of press, and no freedom of press.
Like tight restrictions on fredom of movement.
Like tight controls on freedom of emplyement and carreer choice.
Like tight controls on labor rights and collective barging.
Like no real attempt at democracy.

You described Monsanto



Well not exactly but IMO it's what the capitalist mega-corp will try to achieve :

I want power to the citizen not to the capital !

[GRUNHERZ]

Abnormal?  How so you call me names and I call you names and then we argue about it.

Let me be perfectly honest here.

I hate communism and anything that smacks of it. There are too many people here who just aimlessly go around criticizing our system and basically asking for some form of communism wheter they know it or not. And yes massive income redistribution from those who are very productive to others regardless of productive economic input is one of basic tenents of communism. So is much of hatred of capital and freedom of investment which is exactly what drives all our collective well being. I really though the issue of communism was settled 13 years ago, but then again I do know it's a very tempting system to those people ignorant of economics and human nature.  Now I also made a personal decison a few years back not to distinguish much between socialists and communists beacause frankly in spirit they are not much different.

Second as for the osama bin laden lovers. Well I dont really think think any of you here have little shrines to the bastard but I am shocked at the resentemnet towards the USA after 911 from the liberals and europeans. Thats what i mean by the deth to amreeka sentiments so many of you express.

[straffo]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ


Second as for the osama bin laden lovers. Well I dont really think think any of you here have little shrines to the bastard but I am shocked at the resentemnet towards the USA after 911 from the liberals and europeans. Thats what i mean by the deth to amreeka sentiments so many of you express.

I don't see from where you can form this impression.

We not allways agree with the US governement but it's our right no ?
We are not supposed to agree all the time I think ?

I don't agree with a war against Iraq because I think that the real threat actually are : Saoudia and North Korea.

[GRUNHERZ]

I'm not even so sure why Iraq problem came up. I'm not too gung ho about it myself. But I think the comparsions of Bush to hitler et are stupid when used by people oppsing the USA..

What shocked me was the attitude so may had after 911. But then again I was at college in the middle of SF bay area so you can imagine the types...

[Dowding]

Here's the difference Grunherz - I didn't say you were abnormal, I said the statement:

I like to go after the communists in here and the osama bin laden loving USA haters.

was weird/abnormal. I stand by my comments.

You make yourself sound like some 'War on Terrorism' crusader, riding against the foes that would lead America astray.

[GRUNHERZ]

So what dowding, am I not allowed to be pissed at people who say obsurd things like that my country is an abisuve enslaving  nazi police state bent on eliminatyion of all muslims after 911?

[Dowding]

You're proving my point. It's all in your imagination and as final proof I'd like you to find posts by ANYONE on this BBS:

...who say obsurd things like that my country is an abisuve enslaving nazi police state bent on eliminatyion of all muslims after 911?

Good luck!

[GRUNHERZ]

C'mon and what do you call all those "jokes" about Bush being hitler and ashcroft being a nazi......

Dont be rediculous...

[Dowding]

Yes, Grunherz, they are jokes. J.O.K.E.S. Written for the specific purpose of producing laughter.

Ridiculing the rich and powerful is not the same as seriously suggesting that the US is the Third Reich lead by the anti-Christ. It's satire, it's not disestablishmentarianism - it's permissable under a free, democratic and liberal society. The day it becomes taboo, is the day you should really be worried.

Yet, you repeatedly fail to such statements that way. Instead you produce one of your '5 word rant' - you know, where you run communist, bin laden, loving, f**k and anti-American into one thought provoking and meaningful phrase.

You are so proud to be an American and so defensive of it, but for me, looking from the outside, you are everything it isn't.

This was not meant to be an offensive put-down - I'm trying to be as frank and honest as I can.

[GRUNHERZ]

Actually I know perfectly what you mean and I do see that as a problem when it comes to perception of me. And I thank you for keeping cool with this and patient despite my anger.

I grew up here in the left wing urbanite Bay Area where so many around here seemingly are too cool and progressive to show any support of our country and in fact think its their highest fprm of "patriotism" to demonize the USA at every opportunity be it economics, world affairs or anything - and be loud about it.  I love this country, it allowed my father to bring us out of a poor youglavia with no jobs and move up in life to now where I can attend an excellent college and study Business and have a chance at lots of succes in life. I find nothing wrong in actually agreeing with what this country does, because you know what, I have seen it be good to people around me, even when we first came here and there were five of us stuffed into a tiny aparment for the first few years it was better than before beacuse we could hope for something better.

So when I go ballistic and go too far on people, yes I know it will probably hurt my image but I just cannot let some statement like blitz's of Castro and Che being "good" people go without challenge. Yet being polite and telling him the obvious about Cuba's terrible economic standards or human rights record seems pointless because everyone knows that yet he still sees those people as Heroes. And I have interacted with plenty of people just like him, no matter how much reasonable evidence you give them they just trott along and think communism is just gee golly the most bestest thing ever. They may acknowlege that it hasnt worked before, but you know what they just ask for another chance or say capitalism is evil - just like blitz.   And thats what he is asking for whether he realizes it or not.  

What can you do in the face of that dowing? How could you argue with for example a Holocaust Denier?  And yes I think thats a perfect analogy for communism was the other great Holocaust of this century, both of the human spirit and the body...

People defending communists or posing them as heros and asking for it again truley make me angry, and often I just cannot manage to hold that anger  back.

[Ping]

Grun:....Just heard an interesting comment. I'm gonna share it with you.

 In law enforcement, when a crime is committed, agencies arrive and try to determine motive for the murder/violent crime.
 This is in no way critical of the victim, it is a means of determining who could be responsable and why they were motivated to do it.

 With 911 public sentement and government actions are not allowing this process. Ask yourself, Is there anything that US or Government policies may have done to inflame the Perps to act as they did No matter how heinous their acts or how misguided they might be.
 This is not condemning the US citizens in any way.  
No one deserved to die like that and neither did NY deserve to be attacked.
Terrorists World Wide need to be sought out and stopped.
 But Grun, Reflect now, Is there anything that the US can do to help in this process?
This is not a sign of Freedom haters, nor lovers of communist states, It is a sign of learning from past mistakes and Improving ones self. Both on a personal level, and national level.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Ping
In law enforcement, when a crime is committed, agencies arrive and try to determine motive for the murder/violent crime.
This is in no way critical of the victim, it is a means of determining who could be responsable and why they were motivated to do it.

Determining motive is just a tool to identify and convict the perpitrator.

Once you know who it is, you apprehend them.  Understanding why David Berkowitz did what he did doesn't stop him, but putting him in prison did.

Grunherz is just zealous.  Give him a break.  Just as newly stopped smokers worry more about you smoking than other folks, newly arrived US citizens tend wear the flag on their sleeve.  Kinda cool to be born in a country where the feelings of newly arrived citizens are so deeply felt.

As for socialism vs capitalism, the bottom line is that capitalism works and socialism goes bankrupt.  I don't know why one needs to go any deeper than that.

[GRUNHERZ]

"As for socialism vs capitalism, the bottom line is that capitalism works and socialism goes bankrupt. I don't know why one needs to go any deeper than that."


Oh how I wish and hope with all my heart that would be the end of it, but they just dont understand economics even on that simple a level...