Author Topic: Affirmative Action (Read 8538 times)

Gunthr · « **Reply #60 on:** January 18, 2003, 11:32:07 AM »

MT - if you keep this up, you are going to force me into the Libertarian Party out of frustration

If you want to breakdown Scholastic Apptitude Test scores I'll entertain it, even though it isn't directly related to our discussion because we were talking about AA in hiring, and in any event, in hiring there are other criteria besides written tests that have been relaxed to give an advantage to minorities.

Your figures indicate a corelation between income and SAT scores. Nobody should be surprized about this. I'm just not sure what conclusion(s) you draw from this... you don't tell us, you just dangle it out there as if it means something...

Assuming your figures are correct - that the higher income family you live in, the higher your SAT scores - is true, are you actually implying that society has a responsibility to make sure that everyone has the same income, or that everyone get the same SAT scores - by artificial means if necessary? ???

Sorry. That is so wrong. What makes you think that I have a responsibility to someone because they earn less or score lower than me?

This is the crux of liberal thought on AA and Reparations.

You obviously believe that because whites live in a racist society, and they have benefitted from racism, there is a debt that is owed to black people that should be paid by all of us currently living Americans. Admit it.

lazs2 · « **Reply #61 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:40:24 PM »

MT... while basketball and child rearing are "skills".... we probly need our engineers to have math skills.
lazs

midnight Target · « **Reply #62 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:41:55 PM »

I have quoted Hammy verbatum...

I'm sorry, I can't do more today. Careful not to hurt yourself while patting your own back there Gunthr.

AKIron · « **Reply #63 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:49:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
I have quoted Hammy verbatum...

I'm sorry, I can't do more today. Careful not to hurt yourself while patting your own back there Gunthr.

No problem or rush MT. After all, these test complaints as justification for AA have been going around for many years. Still wondering why the tests haven't been rewritten to eliminate bias rather than the scores adjusted for race.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #64 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:57:34 PM »

MT,
couldn't those scores related to income also be caused by the fact that smarter people will generally find a way to make more money? and you can argue heredity verus environment all you want but either way if your parents where smart odds are you will be too. and if they where stupid, you are probably a dumb ass. yes there are exceptions. it may not be genetic, it may be that smart parents provide a better example at home. regardless the fact that sat scores are higher in people that make more money should be no suprise.

as far as your other facts, (scores by race). the whole argument is self suporting and means nothing. as an example lets take race out of this and limit it to 2 people, you and me.

lets say I tell you I'm just as smart as you. you think I'm a dumb-ass and say "I don't think so, lets take a test and see"

so we take the test and you do well and I don't.

I say the test is biased.

you ask for evedence of the test being biased.

here is my evidence "I am just as smart as you. but you scored higher on the test. therefore the test must be biased, because I'm just as smart as you"

I'm not saying the tests aren't biased(or that they are, I don't know) but the above is the only argument I've ever heard to try and prove that they are and frankly it just doesn't hold up. if this idea of biased tests is going to continue then a better argument is required.

mietla · « **Reply #65 on:** January 18, 2003, 01:38:18 PM »

If you wanted to, how can you make a test race biased?

Thrawn · « **Reply #66 on:** January 18, 2003, 01:50:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
as far as your other facts, (scores by race). the whole argument is self suporting and means nothing. as an example lets take race out of this and limit it to 2 people, you and me.

lets say I tell you I'm just as smart as you. you think I'm a dumb-ass and say "I don't think so, lets take a test and see"

so we take the test and you do well and I don't.

I say the test is biased.

you ask for evedence of the test being biased.

here is my evidence "I am just as smart as you. but you scored higher on the test. therefore the test must be biased, because I'm just as smart as you"

You have an English speaker named Apathy.
You have an English/French speaker named Frenchy.

Apathy and Frenchy take a test in English.
It appears that they are equally smart.

They take a test in French.
Uh-oh, now it appears that Frenchy is smart and Apaphy looks not so smart.

There's your bias.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #67 on:** January 18, 2003, 02:03:08 PM »

sat's are in english right?

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be possable to make the tests biased. I'm saying that the 'I didn't do as well so it must be biased' argument doesn't hold water.

Thrawn · « **Reply #68 on:** January 18, 2003, 02:12:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
sat's are in english right?

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be possable to make the tests biased. I'm saying that the 'I didn't do as well so it must be biased' argument doesn't hold water.

Okay, why do you think people of different racial backrounds aren't do as well as whites in the SATs?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #69 on:** January 18, 2003, 02:25:31 PM »

Thrawn Asians have the highest SAT scores as a group, but I guess asians are just "light" skinned enough to count as white. Its a matter of household education culture and pressure to do well in school - middle class black and mexican kids with educated parents prolly do as well as anyone.

And frankly I have seen this work both ways with some blacks in my high school. In fact one of the most intelligent people I ever knew was this black buddy of mine back in high school, he had a quick mind, wrote well, solved problems quickly, grasped ideas immidiately was funny he had it all going for him educatinally. But he was a loser in school, he rarely attended and he was a drug dealer. Any school failing of his was not the fault of the school, he just did not live and exist in environment where school was important. And that diddlying sucked he was one hell of a guy, but he made that choice on his own - he was fully capable of doing anything - and when we talked about it he plainly said he did not care and it was not important to people around him.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #70 on:** January 18, 2003, 02:32:36 PM »

there are many things that could cause a group to do poorly in a test. even on a completely fair and unbiased test.

for me to state that I know the reason why without solid evedence would be no better than saying the tests are biased.

and again I'm not saying they aren't biased. all I'm saying is prove they are (or at least show some reasonable evidence)before using that whine

AKIron · « **Reply #71 on:** January 18, 2003, 02:34:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
You have an English speaker named Apathy.
You have an English/French speaker named Frenchy.

Apathy and Frenchy take a test in English.
It appears that they are equally smart.

They take a test in French.
Uh-oh, now it appears that Frenchy is smart and Apaphy looks not so smart.

There's your bias.

uh, English and French aren't races

AKIron · « **Reply #72 on:** January 18, 2003, 02:35:53 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
Okay, why do you think people of different racial backrounds aren't do as well as whites in the SATs?

You libs are the ones claiming bias, the onus is on you.

Gunthr · « **Reply #73 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:03:26 PM »

Quote

I'm sorry, I can't do more today. Careful not to hurt yourself while patting your own back there Gunthr.

- MT

I'm not patting myself on the back MT.

I try to be open minded - not cling to my opinions as if they're my life raft - and I salute anybody who can honestly listen to a differing point of view.

Thrawn · « **Reply #74 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:06:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
uh, English and French aren't races

It's an anaolgy.

"You libs are the ones claiming bias, the onus is on you."

Incorrect, we have already proven a bias with MT's statistics.

Edit: Let me rephrase.

SAT tests are biased against non-white males. These statistics reflect this.

SAT

Total Test-takers: approxomately 1.2 million
Of whom approximately 54% are female

Verbal Math Total
American Indian or Alaskan Native 480 483 963
Asian, Asian Amer., or Pacific Is. 498 562 1060
Black or African American 434 426 860
Mexican American 453 460 913
Puerto Rican 452 447 899
Hispanic/Latino 461 466 927
White 526 528 1054
Other 511 514 1025

Males 509 531 1040
Females 502 496 998
ALL TEST-TAKERS 505 512 1017