Buffing: hard work to be undone in minutes

[Nifty]

Yeah bombers are pointless in the strat aspect.    We Knits were pushing to take some Bish base, don't remember which one or when.  I'm flying JABO in a Hurri IIc, I take out a hangar or something, then grab some kills, I'm out of ammo, so I RTB.  I see a really high dot ahead of me.  As I get near the base and under the dot, it's a high Lanc.  As I approach my field to land, there's smoke everywhere.  The lanc was nailing every single non-hangar target at the field.  All ammo, barracks and fuel tanks were hit.  Damn, we can't use this base anymore to press the attack, 25% fuel, no ordnance, no TROOPS.  We gotta resupply this base from another base.  Oh, there's another base we can attack from.  Oops, a Bish B17 was shot down overhead.  He managed a drop or two.  No barracks at this field.  We gotta resupply this one too, or take the goon from even farther back.  In the mean time, the Bish managed to get a resupply to their field we were pressing setting us back to square one on trying to take it.

Two solo bombers made an impact on the situation at that front.  They protected their field by hitting tactical targets and removing (albeit until resupply) the immediate threat of the base being captured.  They didn't ruin the fun of anyone, they just forced the Knits to work harder at that area.  All fighter hangars were up, so the furballers could still go, they were just gonna not make it back from the fuel porked field, yet the other field that was about the same distance away was still fully fighter operable.

Honestly, that's not how buffs were used in WWII, but that's how you CAN use them in the current version of AH to have fun and make an impact on the game.  (later 3 B17s showed up and completely leveled the field that was at 25% fuel.)  Sure we resupplied it, but it took some time to get the C47 there, plenty of time for Bish to get defense at their field up.  Eventually we got the field, but it took some time and effort.  It was a blast!

edit: i said rook once cuz I was getting confused from a later fight we had that night.  

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Nifty ]

[LePaul]

As a fellow buff driver, I agree what the original poster says.  Same thing goes with hangars and other targets.  I mean, just how much "magical" powerups can a C47 Resupply ship have?

At least make it require a LOT of resupply runs to re-up the base/city etc.  This concept of 1 little C47 can magically repair all the damage of 4 Lancasters is just silly.  Absolutely silly.

Add to this the bullet proof truck convoys...myself and 3 other fighters spotted a truck convoy.  I was in a F4D with tons of machine gun ammo and 5 passes later, I'd only hammered 1 truck.  The other guys were baffled at the Kevlar Express too.

But anyways, back to the point, I agree completely Keez.  One little bitty C47 shouldn't undo the damage your buff raid and carpet bombing produced.

[Keez]

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
What altitude were you at.. and what type of bombers?

AKDejaVu

We were at 22.000 feet, in B17's.

 

Originally posted by Laz1:
I also think that you are confussing "hard work" with "skill". I don't believe that "hard work" should be rewarded unless it involves skill and then... only in a balanced manner. The "skill" required to kill dar or ruin fights is so low now that it should only be worth about 20 seconds of closure per hour of "hard work" at this point. Most bomb runs are either skilless suicide runs and/or milkruns. No one is fooled thaspends any time in the arena.

you say we/I don't have "what it takes" to kill fluffs.... Maybe, That doesn't seem to ring true tho in light of the stats, but... more importantly.... who would want to? To kill gamey, silly fluffs that are an embarassment to a flight simulation is simply..... not fun and, if it's not fun... What's the point? How do I know I am really bored? when I kill a fluff.

Laz, you seem to have a serious attitude problem. All you do is squeak about bombers and telling how little skill is needed and such... It is true that very little aiming skill is needed to hit a target with bombs, but manning a gun on a B17 is harder when a fighter doesn't from dead 6. And I hope the bombaiming will be changed with 1.09.

What is so important about skill that you keep telling that it takes no skill... Why does that make bombers less important? The gunners on bombers were just ordinary young men, not special talented special ops G.I. AirJoe's like your special little self.

"Hard work should not be rewarded unless it requires skill".... You know Laz, I think you lack some serious other skills... social skills. You only seem to be able to make your point if you involve telling the other party how useless they are. You try to keep a lot of B17's in a tight formation with a 700 feet spread max from left to right. See if you got the skills. Now go off, and go impress some girls with your incredible Aces High skills.

[Am0n]

I agree Keez, with the current system it does discourage bombing strat targets (bombing in general really). Hopefully its being looked into.

Ignore the flames, they probably didnt even read your post. Or so it would seem from the ignorant replies.

[Apache]

Originally posted by LePaul:
As a fellow buff driver, I agree what the original poster says.  Same thing goes with hangars and other targets.  I mean, just how much "magical" powerups can a C47 Resupply ship have?

At least make it require a LOT of resupply runs to re-up the base/city etc.  This concept of 1 little C47 can magically repair all the damage of 4 Lancasters is just silly.  Absolutely silly.

Add to this the bullet proof truck convoys...myself and 3 other fighters spotted a truck convoy.  I was in a F4D with tons of machine gun ammo and 5 passes later, I'd only hammered 1 truck.  The other guys were baffled at the Kevlar Express too.

But anyways, back to the point, I agree completely Keez.  One little bitty C47 shouldn't undo the damage your buff raid and carpet bombing produced.

They have about as much powerups as the laser guided bombs in the buffs. What is silly about 1 c47 resupplying what 1 buff did? Carpet bombing? In AH? why? There's no need.

Oh, I get it! Game concession/counter game concession. With ya now.

[Am0n]

Originally posted by Keez:
You know Laz, I think you lack some serious other skills... social skills.

LOL!

 

[Apache]

Originally posted by Am0n:
I agree Keez, with the current system it does discourage bombing strat targets (bombing in general really). Hopefully its being looked into.

Ignore the flames, they probably didnt even read your post. Or so it would seem from the ignorant replies.

I disagree. Why should 1 buff or 1 buff squadron make such an impact as Keez is suggesting? Ever been in a military/para-military strike? Granted,  a 6 man team can cause alot of damage but they can not permanently disable a major facility.

This game is about cooperation. Why don't those that choose to "move the front" do so in a tactical manner? Can't get enough like minded? Then do something about it. Someone should take a leadership role as Ripsnort did in the formation of MAG33. Thats 3 or 4 squads that come together and strike targets, cooperatively.

Guess what they do? Some go after the main target while others go after the supporting targets. Novel idea isn't it?

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Swoop:
I totally agree with this post.


Strategic bombing is bollocks now, there's just no point.

It's all very well having resupply and trains and whatnot for tactical bombing targets but AI resupply should take at least 1/2 an hour......more if intercepted by jabo.

Strat targets should damn well stay down for hours, not minutes.

couldnt have put it better myself   YES even the bollocks bit <S>

BUT laz and westy have a point here, there must be a ballance and Laz, how about this?

we keep the bases set up exactly as they are with its present high rate of resupply.
We make resupply of the strategic targets such as factories 3 times SLOWER.And the natural respawning of said factories 2xslower.
In one stroke we have MEANINGFULL strategic targets for bombers,there will be less bombers closing bases as hitting factories.
fighter/furball lovers can effectively,if they like, ignore the bombers and furball,those of us(myself included) that like a more complicated game can concentrate on the base captures and stopping the bomber raids.
Bombers have targets that STAY HURT for a good 1/2 to one hour.
Resupply of factories by c47s would become the their focus if we make them the better choice for repairing facories.

what do you think?

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[Dago]

I think damage repair by resupply is too generous as it is setup now.  I was working with some guys to destroy an enemy field, after a fair amount of jabo, a resupply got in and all that work was wasted.  

Resupply might be a good part of the game strat, but it should not be as capable as it is now.

dago

[AKDejaVu]

We were at 22.000 feet, in B17's.

At that altitude, in that plane, there are perhaps 5 fighters that stand a chance against a B-17.  I'd venture to say even then, the chance is less than 50:50 for everything except the Me262 and Ta152H... even then.. its most likely not above a 1:1.

Summary...

You are asking for more reward from a minimal impact, minimal risk mission.  Flying over a base at 22k is not high risk.  The flak sucks or is non existant at most bases and the fighters are pigs at that altitude.  The B-17 .50s have the ability to all be targetted and fired very precisely and the B-17 handles very well at that alt.

You want all of the advantages, combined with a greater reward.

Sorry... I don't agree with that.  As much as lazs turns people off with his style and tones, he has one thing right.  The most difficult thing about flying a buff in the style you mention is avoiding boredome.

Bombing just for the sake of bombing should be minimal reward.  To say that is historical is an understatement.  Its consistant targetting of high risk minimal immediate impact targets that bombers have always been relegated to.

You want to impact something?  Bomb an airfield that is being attacked.  Bomb a nearby airfield's bomber hangars to prevent re-supply.  Do something with support.

Bombing for the sake of bombing will not and should not affect the overall picture more than superficially.  Especially a single fricking sortie.

AKDejaVu

[Apache]

Originally posted by Dago:
I think damage repair by resupply is too generous as it is setup now.  I was working with some guys to destroy an enemy field, after a fair amount of jabo, a resupply got in and all that work was wasted.  

Resupply might be a good part of the game strat, but it should not be as capable as it is now.

dago

Rubish I say, rubish!  

[Pepe]

Originally posted by LePaul:
As a fellow buff driver, I agree what the original poster says.  Same thing goes with hangars and other targets.  I mean, just how much "magical" powerups can a C47 Resupply ship have?

At least make it require a LOT of resupply runs to re-up the base/city etc.  This concept of 1 little C47 can magically repair all the damage of 4 Lancasters is just silly.  Absolutely silly.

Add to this the bullet proof truck convoys...myself and 3 other fighters spotted a truck convoy.  I was in a F4D with tons of machine gun ammo and 5 passes later, I'd only hammered 1 truck.  The other guys were baffled at the Kevlar Express too.

But anyways, back to the point, I agree completely Keez.  One little bitty C47 shouldn't undo the damage your buff raid and carpet bombing produced.

Hehehe, can't but smile at this...

First, current buff model defenders argue that firing arcs, magic norden, high alt manouvering, pinpoint accuracy, infinite zoom, multiple syncronized gun positions, full power infinite cruising with no overheat, no icing effects over 25k, not to mention damage model (as this can be disputed) are either real suff or "gameplay" concessions to make buff run interesting....and then they argue that a goon resupply plane can't possibly rebuild (I assume from a "realistic" point of view) the damage they "realistically" inflict!

Hehehe, yeah, PERK goons, once and for good. These little critters are most unbalancing, unrealistic, and gamey things in this game/sim.  

Cheers,

Pepe

[Don]

Hmmmm, well Keez, I gotta tell ya, your post will get as far as other posts which take the opposite tack; auto gunners on buffs are too accurate, mgs on buffs are too lethal, buff tuff is unrealistic, buffs are too manueverable and cannot be brought down by MG armed a/c etc. etc. etc.

Things is, if there were no oppty for a country to regen it's fields then the country "in the tank" and gettin banged by the other two countries would swiftly wind up knocked out of the war and a arena wide reset would occur. So, I submit that you and yer 30k chums did yer duty and plastered Rook or Kinigit fields; hell it coulda been Rook HQ for all I know   And you boyz shot down 6 nme fiters which prolly didn't have a chance against the "uber guns" you have   And you made it home intact...a successful mission I'd say. That the field didnt stay dead isn't a bad thing, they could have been taken by the rest of your countrymen if they had cooperated with your effort. If it was deep in our territory, chances are they wouldn't have gotten far enough in before they were stopped. So what was the point of your mission? A deep field would prolly only be used by buffs anyway. Forward bases tend to be used by nme fiters to get to the hotspots anyway. Was your mission a training exercise? If so, then I'd say you guys did a good job; mission successful and completed  

[Keez]

Originally posted by Apache:

I disagree. Why should 1 buff or 1 buff squadron make such an impact as Keez is suggesting? Ever been in a military/para-military strike? Granted, a 6 man team can cause alot of damage but they can not permanently disable a major facility.

Ok, let me see... If 5 B17's go up and there are 50 Bish online, then 10% of the whole airfleet is concentrating on one target. I dont wanna see what happens if 10% of the US Airforce sets out to bomb one single target.

Besides you are interpreting my posts in your own way. I never "suggested" anything at all. I just asked for the target to be down a bit more. We had hit about 75% of the city. There are 2 cities, meaning "the" city is still at 62.5%. Now that aint too much impact at all. And neither did I ask for a facility to be down permanently. Again, that's your own interpretation.

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:

At that altitude, in that plane, there are perhaps 5 fighters that stand a chance against a B-17.  I'd venture to say even then, the chance is less than 50:50 for everything except the Me262 and Ta152H... even then.. its most likely not above a 1:1.

Summary...

You are asking for more reward from a minimal impact, minimal risk mission.  Flying over a base at 22k is not high risk.  The flak sucks or is non existant at most bases and the fighters are pigs at that altitude.  The B-17 .50s have the ability to all be targetted and fired very precisely and the B-17 handles very well at that alt.

You want all of the advantages, combined with a greater reward.

AKDejaVu

Let me first say that when two fighters concentrate on a bomber at the same time, there is no way the bomber is gonna live. Defenders often just lack co-ordination. I once spotted a small formation of B17's, but didn't attack. I called for help and followed the formation for 10 minutes before two friendlies got up there. We shot down every single bomber, unfortunatly the last one got me as well.

And flying like 90 miles into enemy territory, past three airfields, is NOT a minimal risk mission. It is the most dangerous thing you can do in a buff. Except offcourse for flying at 10K and being all alone. Because it means we flew there and back, that means past SIX enemy airfields, and in the end we got scattered due to not being able to pilot while gunning and engines quitting.

I would gladly welcome a more realistic, a more challangin bomb aiming system, and a more historic gunnery system i.e. not all the guns firing at the same milimeter.

[Don]

Then hit depots and railyards and other strat targets  

>>Well I joined for the fun of pushing home deep strikes, not for the targets to be
                    completely rebuild, brand new, after a couple of minutes.