Buffing: hard work to be undone in minutes

[Keez]

Originally posted by Don:
So, I submit that you and yer 30k chums did yer duty and plastered Rook or Kinigit fields; hell it coulda been Rook HQ for all I know   And you boyz shot down 6 nme fiters which prolly didn't have a chance against the "uber guns" you have   And you made it home intact...a successful mission I'd say. That the field didnt stay dead isn't a bad thing, they could have been taken by the rest of your countrymen if they had cooperated with your effort. If it was deep in our territory, chances are they wouldn't have gotten far enough in before they were stopped. So what was the point of your mission? A deep field would prolly only be used by buffs anyway.

Sigh. Every response is welcome but... I stated right at the top of my first post that we hit a CITY. Not a field. You're missing the whole point of the discussion here. We dont concentrate on fields, I think that is more of a JABO job.

[Apache]

Edited out to come back when I get more time for a more lucid response.

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Keez]

Sure I got a response for you  

 

Originally posted by Apache:


This game is about cooperation. Why don't those that choose to "move the front" do so in a tactical manner? Can't get enough like minded? Then do something about it. Someone should take a leadership role as Ripsnort did in the formation of MAG33. Thats 3 or 4 squads that come together and strike targets, cooperatively.

Guess what they do? Some go after the main target while others go after the supporting targets. Novel idea isn't it?

Yeah that's realistic. Hey Bish, come on, lets get 40 people together and plan something. I'm already glad that I found a Squadron that is willing to go after strat targets to help the peeps who try to move the front.

I fully support such initiatives tough. But I also have real life to look after. I just want to come online during a squadron day, find my buddies, look at the situation, pick a target accordingly, and move out. I dont have the time to get squads organised and such.

Besides, hitting the city was part of a supporting plan. We planned to hit factories after that, which would stay down longer because we hit the city.

[Grimm]

This is a good thread.  not too flaming, just a few singes, no cinders.  

Here is something that would provide the type of thing the bomber guys would like.  Its also something the fighter guys would seek to defend.

Lets have airplane factories, No resupply to them, just 30-60 min regeneration.  These Factories would be A/C specific.  First would be B17 and Lancaster Factories, Next might be C47 Factories, Lets add the Common Fighters P51, N1K2, Spit9,FW.  

The Big Bombers fly in, Hit the Factories and deprive one of there enemys of one of their A/C for a while.   Bomber Guys get to be Heros for killing off those anoying (pick your plane).  

The Fighters Guys want to keep some of those precious planes, So they are going to break away from the furball and try to defend.  

The Best is when the Bomber Guys Tick-off the enemy Bomber Guys ;D  

Maybe we have something simular in place already?

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Grimm ]

[Keez]

I had thought of a similair system, where bombing factories would make planes cost perks. But I think this would meet too much resistance.

[Wotan]

until something is to change the pinpoint accurracy of bombing so what.

It was an obvious waste of time anyway to go "deep into enemy territory" simply to gloat and "ha ha I got yo city".

Laz is so right on this it makes me sick. But I call it like I see it.

buck up little fluffer you coulda just rearmed and did it again.  

[Keez]

Originally posted by Wotan:
until something is to change the pinpoint accurracy of bombing so what.

It was an obvious waste of time anyway to go "deep into enemy territory" simply to gloat and "ha ha I got yo city".

Laz is so right on this it makes me sick. But I call it like I see it.

buck up little fluffer you coulda just rearmed and did it again.  

We never went in to gloat and say ha ha I got your city. We went in to hit the city, which would then be down for three hours. After that we were to hit Ack factories, causing your acks to stay down a very long time. Not to mention fuel refineries, or radar factories... Buffs are able to render you blind, unarmed, out of fuel and defenceless. Well, to some degree anyways.

As long as you dont understand the strat system, dont make posts that only make you look bad.

And again, I'm all for a more realistic and challenging bombsight.

[DamnedBuzzard]

Originally posted by Keez:


I would gladly welcome a more realistic, a more challangin bomb aiming system, and a more historic gunnery system i.e. not all the guns firing at the same milimeter.

And wouldn't that start a squeal heard round the world. I'd pay money to listen to all th little fluffers cryin on ch1 cause they couldn't hit anything from 30k. Shoot the overload of whinin on these boards would probably raise the price of popcorn stock 130%.

[Apache]

Ok, let me see... If 5 B17's go up and there are 50 Bish online, then 10% of the whole airfleet is concentrating on one target. I dont wanna see what happens if 10% of the US Airforce sets out to bomb one single target.

An assinine statement with which I won't bother commenting on.

 

Besides you are interpreting my posts in your own way. I never "suggested" anything at all. I just asked for the target to be down a bit more. We had hit about 75% of the city. There are 2 cities, meaning "the" city is still at 62.5%. Now that aint too much impact at all. And neither did I ask for a facility to be down permanently. Again, that's your own interpretation.

You're quite right, I stand corrected. You didn't "suggest" anything, however your intent is quite clear. Taking out resources, no matter the percentage, impacts me greatly if it lasted longer or I didn't have the current ability to resupply. If I get to fly an hour and you have the ability to disable my resources for that hour, you in effect, made that a permanent impact. You have as much ability to stop my resupply as I do to stop your strike.
Furthermore, I wouldn't use numbers if I were you. It belittles your argument. You are here whining about 37.5% staying down longer.

 

Yeah that's realistic. Hey Bish, come on, lets get 40 people together and plan something. I'm already glad that I found a Squadron that is willing to go after strat targets to help the peeps who try to move the front

So, you want the game changed to your likeing since you don't have the ability or the inclination to coordinate a tactical strike. No thanks.

 

I fully support such initiatives tough. But I also have real life to look after. I just want to come online during a squadron day, find my buddies, look at the situation, pick a target accordingly, and move out. I dont have the time to get squads organised and such.

Now here is an interesting statement. You, like I have an hour or 2 to kill & want to enjoy our online experience but yet, you want to cripple my time by being able to disable my side for a longer period of time. Why wouldn't I be against that?

[Kieran]

I just can't see an argument for five bombers completely destroying the total resource production of a country for 3 hours. You argue the five bombers represent the larger bomber streams present in the war, I argue that time is compressed to make up for the smaller scale of the map. You get your play concession, we get ours.

As lazs points out, very few carpetbombing strikes did more than temporarily halt production. It was only after a long and concerted effort the Allies were able to completely remove the Axis ability to produce vital materials, and then only in certain areas.

If you want a city, base, or to move the line bring your posse or be satisfied you got in and out alive. If you want to have a lasting effect, sustain the effort. I happen to believe the capability to resupply by air or ground has breathed some fresh air into the game, and in addition given us more targets to kill.

[Keez]

I'm getting tired of this discussion so I'm gonna round it up for me...

The basic was that I was discourraged that damage that took me ages to inflict was undone in seconds.

There have been a lot of statements, pro and con, and I have to admit that there are things to say for points from both sides.

Apache, I could give comment on each of your comments in your last post, tough it were good comments, but I'm getting tired of it.

I just still hope that some targets can not be resupplied that now can be. Good discussion all, I got to blow off some steam over my dissappointment last night  

Thanks everyone who participated, I'm out.

 

[Apache]

Understood Keez. Good luck in your endeavor.

I <S> you on the manner in which you end your argument.

[Cuba]

I agree with Keez.  Let's just go back to 1.07, where the map room was on the field, and goons could only drop troops.

Everyone Ok with that?

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Cuba ]

[Rojo]

Hey guys, 1.09 will bring a serious reduction in the accuracy of level bombers (see the HiTech interview at http://www.wargamer.com  ).  Instead, we will have much larger bomber formations (60 at once, if all 15 of my squadies get on at once).  The ability of a single buff pilot to affect operations at a target like an airfield will be reduced, but against area targets like cities and factories, it should actually be better.  I can only speculate that buff gunner leathality will have to change, though how remains to be seen.

Given these changes on the horizons, how would both sides on this argument suggest bombers be used to have an impact on the war in the MA?  What changes would you suggest to the strat and logistics aspect of the game? And please let's keep the discussion civil and respectful.

[lazs1]

In reality... what you could do at an airfield was to limit it's ability TO SEND UP FLUFFS.   the big fat fluffs were right out on the runway or in the hangers and easy to kill while the fighteres were in revetments and pushed in back behind the trees.   airfields were incapable of sending up fluffs but could allways send up fighters.  If there was ever a fuel shortage... fighters got fuel not fluffs.  I would go for that.

Look... if you kill dar or limit one or another plane or fuel or whatever by simply milkrunning a concession ridden and embarrassing fluff then the people who wish to fly for only and hour or so will log off.... Get it?   If you keep that in mind then it is easy to see what people will and will not put up with IN THE MA... do as you like in scenarios and special events where everyone comes on and off at the same time.

Sooo..make the fields closer and easier to capture but make em have fighters available til the bitter end.... Anytime you make fighters fly 2 sectors or even more than about 3/4 of one... your gonna have people bored and logging...  Make it so the damn fluffs can't kill the cv fleet... that is so unrealistic that it reeks.

I will admit... if you make the fluffs more realistic in bombing and aiming... yu probly won't get much of a turnout.   And PU LEES don't give me this laughable crap about how you are "moving the front" or "bombing everything but the fighter hangers"   Sheesh... you are talking to guys that actually are in the arena.
lazs