Author Topic: wtf is wrong with the French?  (Read 3505 times)

Offline lord dolf vader

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2003, 12:52:48 PM »
oops

Offline Hortlund

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2003, 12:55:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda

Conserning 1809 war. Bernadotte probably faced many things that were considered "impossible" but implemented by Russians, like the cavalry raid across the frozen Botnic gulf.

I admit that I know much less about that war then you do, because this minor conflict (from Russian POV) was a great episode of your history.


Yeah, I know alot about that war. For some reason, I keep wanting to learn more about it, even though it is one of the greatest military tragedies in Swedish history.

Short version:
Soviets attacked 1809. Swedish forces outnumbered something like 8-1. Swedish defensive plan had two major components.
1) Main army does a fighting withdrawal north west towards the Swedish border.
2) Fortress Sveaborg (outside Helsinki) holds at any cost. Sveaborg was the largest fortress ever built in Sweden. It was, for its time, truly impossible to conquer, it lay on an island in the inlet to Helsinki.

The idea was that when the summer arrived, reinforcements from Sweden would land in southern Finland under the protection of the guns of Sveaborg. Meanwhile, the Russian army would be exhausted from fighting and marching in Finland in the winter (think 1939). The fresh Swedish forces would then attack north and cut off the Russians.

The outcome.
The Swedish army began an organized fighting withdrawal north, inflicting serious losses on the Russian army in several encounters. But the army never "took a stand" in accordance with the war plan.

Then, out of the blue, and for no reason whatsoever, the commander (I will not take his name in my mouth) of Fort Sveaborg surrendered.

Ooops.

No one really knows why he did that. He had plenty of food and ammo. The fortress had a full crew of several thousand men, and the Russian forces posed no threat to the fortress.  

Anyway, the king Gustav IV lost his nerve, and instead of trying to salvage the situation, he ordered the army to retreat back into Sweden. Meanwhile the Russians stayed in winter quarters in various towns and cities. When spring came the Swedish army was exhausted and with poor morale. The Russians attacked into Swedish soil, and the King surrendered.

Offline Thrawn

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2003, 01:15:10 PM »
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2003, 01:43:48 PM »
Thanks for the information, I'll try to look for Russian POV on the Net in the milhistory forums and echoes.

Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Soviets attacked 1809.


This is beautiful.

So far what I have found (a first link in yandex.ru search) is:

"Soviets" :D occupied Finland in 1808. In August 1808 in a battle at Kuortane lake Russian army (Kamensky) defeated Swedes (Klingspor). Sveaborg was taken on May, 3, 1808. In Feb, 1809, Russian troops crossed Botnic gulf and were 100km from Stokholm. GustavIV was overthrown and according to peace treaty Finland and Aland islands were given to Russia.

Another relation to France: this war started according to Tilsit agreements with Napoleon because Sweden didn't join "continental blockade" of Britain.

Offline Makofan

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2003, 02:41:39 PM »
Heh

I think the French were the cause of every war in the last 450 years, and they lost them all too.  The last time they won a war they were so pissed they won that they betrayed the woman who lead them to the enemy.

But I'm biased :)

Offline whgates3

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2003, 04:31:30 PM »
king of sweden is a frenchman

Offline Hortlund

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2003, 04:33:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by whgates3
king of sweden is a frenchman

No, he is swedish.

Unless you want to argue that since his ancestor was French and moved to Sweden in 1810-something, he is not really Swedish. But if you want to take that route then there are no americans at all. Nor Swedes really, since this nation was populated after the last ice age approx 11 000 yrs ago.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #82 on: January 22, 2003, 04:35:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo

it was never more than 25% as far as I know.
 


Straffo, it varied from unit to unit. If I remember correctly, the parachutists regiment (REP?) were the ones with the abnormal high proportion of Germans.

Offline whgates3

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2003, 04:49:38 PM »
ok king of sweden is swedish...





...but ace of base sux!

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2003, 03:51:06 AM »
Those french a**holes have done it again.

Offline straffo

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2003, 04:07:05 AM »
and so what ?

Offline Flash Gordon

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2003, 04:51:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Well, they've slapped us around a few times ... the French never did that thank God, or we'd all be speaking French here. :D


Let me get this straight - if the US was given the choice to permit France overfly its territory in return for which, the US might suffer terrorist attacks on its soil and the very probably loss of American life for aiding the French, the US would have just gone ahead and done so?

From a country that breaks trade agreements with its closest neighbor and trading partner...

Offline Duedel

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2003, 05:11:43 AM »
Hortlund whats up with ya? I always thought u where a mature and nice person. Why u are insulting the French so heavy?
Why did u brought up this topic? Only to upset the French or to discuss historical things? If it is the last one i would suggest to calm down and use another kind of language.

Offline Hortlund

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2003, 06:15:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Duedel
Hortlund whats up with ya? I always thought u where a mature and nice person. Why u are insulting the French so heavy?


It is because of their attitude in the Iraq question. Well, it is more than that really, there are alot of reasons. I dont know if you want me to go back to the Versaille treaty and start listing all their failings from that date, but I could if you want.

Right now though, it is their spineless cowardly stance in the Iraq issue. It would be ok if they were just acting cowardly on their own. I mean no one would care if they decided to sit this war out too...in fact I think everyone would understand them if they did.

But now they are threatening to use thier veto in the security counsel (why on earth they ever got a permanent seat there is beyond me..."yeah, we must not forget to give a permanent seat to the nation that surrendered within a month, then fought on both sides of the war, and finally ended up as one of the "victorious" nations of ww2 simply because they were considered a great nation before the war.")

Now, that means that the French have moved from being "annoying, obnoxious, pathetic" to "a part of the problem".

That is more serious than you might realize. See when your opponent is supporting various terrorist organizations, and when said terrorist organizations have declared war on the civilized world, and when your opponent is holding chemical and biological weapons, and there is a clear and present danger that those B&C weapons might find their way to the terrorists, then if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

France is not only a part of the problem, they are making the problem worse with their "If we close our eyes really hard maybe the bad things will go away"-attitude.

Offline straffo

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wtf is wrong with the French?
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2003, 06:19:59 AM »
now I'm really pissed