Author Topic: wtf is wrong with the French? (Read 3024 times)

Hortlund · « **Reply #45 on:** January 21, 2003, 04:26:43 PM »

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Originally posted by Thud
Someone from Sweden ridiculing the French for not being capable of putting up a serious fight in war is like a housewife who went to a self-defence workshop and starts making jokes of a cagefighter who went KO in his last match.

Moron

Ah, what razor sharp wit. You Sir should definitively work as a comedian.

First I dont see what Sweden has to do with this at all.
Second, feel free to list the wars we participated in and how/why you feel we should feel embarrased about it.
Third, So tell me what the Dutch contributed to the history of the world besides coffe shops and red light districts.

Hortlund · « **Reply #46 on:** January 21, 2003, 04:31:24 PM »

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Originally posted by straffo

You'd better have to buy some book tomorrow.

I'll do that if you'll bother to expand some on your replies other than "BS".

I would like you to expand on all your "BS"-replies actually. From the look of things, you might need that book more than I do.

But if you feel that it is too much to ask, then please focus on Dien Bien Phu, Algeirs (and particualrily the mutiny of the Legionnares) and Bosnia, particualrily how your line of reasoning goes when it comes to the French unilateral desicion to recognize Bosnia as an independent state, and thus forcing the EU into similar action.

Hortlund · « **Reply #47 on:** January 21, 2003, 04:37:51 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
"Actually, pretty much all the current research indicates it was a Swedish officer that killed him. The bullet that killed the king was a button from a Swedish officers uniform."

- LOL! What does that say about the Swedish soldier!

"As for the whole squadrons and merchant fleets of Norwegian heroes, I take that answer as a "no"."

Ditt elgrævhøltryne! You're such an incredible prettythanghole disrespecting all those men! Remember you're just a car trip away, and have an internet-trail as long as Bill Gates! I'll find you you little cheese!

elgrævhøltryne -does that really mean moose-ass-face?

As for the rest, try to cool down a bit. Personal threats via a bulletin board is...not something HTC really appreciates.

So what are you saying? That all Norwegian merchantmen during ww2 are the true heroes of the war? Not the soldiers who fought and died, not the airmen, no..the Merchant marine sailors?

Something you could think about though is the number of Norwegian volounteers in the Waffen SS compared to the number of Norwegian soldiers that actually fought against the Germans. If you do a comparrisson of KIA/WIA numbers, you will note that more Norwegians fought and died for the Germans than did for Norway. Do you want to comment on that?

Thud · « **Reply #48 on:** January 21, 2003, 04:38:46 PM »

As you wish,

one and two rolled into one nice compact answer: If you ask what Sweden has to do with it you clearly don't grasp the concept of only judging someone else when you have earned the right to do so.

And for point three, well I could quote the famous Dutch seafaring, conquering, fighting and exploring past, or on a more recent note, all our disproportionally numerous contributions to peacekeeping missions (granted, not always succesful) in the recent decades but I gladly settle for the coffeeshops and the red light districts.

Hortlund · « **Reply #49 on:** January 21, 2003, 04:42:14 PM »

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Originally posted by Thud
If you ask what Sweden has to do with it you clearly don't grasp the concept of only judging someone else when you have earned the right to do so.

Ahh I see. And how pray tell does one earn the right to critizise someone else?

straffo · « **Reply #50 on:** January 21, 2003, 04:45:48 PM »

My BS reply mean :
I'm tired I'm going to bed I wont waste my precious sleep time to answer.

Btw why to you suddently want reduce the discution to Bosnia ,Dien Bien Phu , and Alger ?

I prefer writing about Korea , Suez and Napoleonian campaign and next we will discuss of Bosnia and so on

Simply without any documentation nor any web search :

Bosnia : it was because some other European country recognized Croatia first (as far as I know)

Dien Bien Phu : so there was no pole nor french in the legion at this time ?

Alger : this period is a mess and there is a lot of things still not known and it was not only the Légion.

Hortlund · « **Reply #51 on:** January 21, 2003, 04:53:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
My BS reply mean :
I'm tired I'm going to bed I wont waste my precious sleep time to answer.

Btw why to you suddently want reduce the discution to Bosnia ,Dien Bien Phu , and Alger ?

I prefer writing about Korea , Suez and Napoleonian campaign and next we will discuss of Bosnia and so on

Simply without any documentation nor any web search :

Bosnia : it was because some other European country recognized Croatia first (as far as I know)

Dien Bien Phu : so there was no pole nor french in the legion at this time ?

Alger : this period is a mess and there is a lot of things still not known and it was not only the Légion.

hehe, the reason I wanted to focus on those three topics is because there I remember the answers farily well.

Germany recognized Croatia and Croatia broke free. Then France recognized Bosnia=Serbia panicked=hello Bosnian civil war.

Dien Bien Phu. Yes, there were lots of other nationalities in the legion at the time. But right after ww2 *alot* of germans (and notably, mostly ex-Waffen SS sought their way into the legion. In the early 50ies this became a problem when the French started to realize they had alot of warcrime suspects in the legion. At the same time, they could not kick them out. AND they were afraid of mutiny since something like 70% of the Legion was German at the time. SO off to Dien Bien Phu they went and died. After that, the German percentage was back to "normal" again.

Looking forwards to your answers tomorrow. Will be interesting to discuss the Napoleonic wars

(Unless some norwegian guy drives over here tonight and kicks my bellybutton and destroys my computer because he feels I showed disrespect to some Norwegian sailors)

Hortlund · « **Reply #52 on:** January 21, 2003, 05:11:31 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
- They were ALL volunteers. They didn't have to face German u-boats in the cold Atlantic with little or no chance of survival if they got torpedoed. They transported 40% of all goods from USA to England during WWII, and thousands didn't survive. That makes them heroes in my book. "not the airmen" ??? Didn't I say "squadrons AND merchant fleets"? And yes the commandoes and resistance fighters (whom my grandparents joined, kinda eerie listening to my grandma describing how to fieldstrip a Stengun).

[/b]

Ok, before this gets too carried away, I probably should tell you that I have family in Norway (two brothers and one sister) so I'm not really a Norwegian-hater.

As for the sailors, Im not doubting their bravery. I have been on a (normal) ship at sea in semi-bad weather, and that was bad enough for me. To have submarines out there trying to kill you on top of that would probably have been to much for my nerves.

I think I can say this: All nations in ww2 had individuals that gave incredible feats of personal courage. I find it pointless to argue over the individual courage of the individual soldier, airman, sailor etc. Because...it varies from person to person regardless of nationality. (Then there might be some nations where you have to look harder than others to find these heroic soldiers hehe

)

Quote

- I don't blame them. The Nazis occupied Norway, and their propaganda was very effective.

Something YOU could think about is the number of supposedly neutral Swedes that volunteered for the Waffen-SS. Do you want to comment on that?

Sure, 250 -750 Swedes joined the Waffen SS. You could add a couple of thousands that volounteered to fight on the Finnish side, and there you have the Swedes who fought on the German side. Back then USSR was the big enemy, and that is probably the reason why they joined the Waffen SS. I think the same can be said about the norwegians and danes, and dutch and belgian and french troops that joined the Waffen SS. These soldiers were put in units that only fought on the eastern front, because they mostly joined to fight the commies.

But if you are looking to pin blame on Sweden during ww2, you should look in other areas (hint: ball bearings, wood, steel, transit traffic, Swedish destroyers escorting German merchantmen, etc etc)

Dowding · « **Reply #53 on:** January 21, 2003, 05:12:57 PM »

Yeah Hortlund. No only is this thread stupid in the extreme (criticising the national character of a whole nation?), you're on very shaky ground with regard to criticising other nations for their collaboration with the Nazis.

I wonder how many allied soliders died at the hands of Swedish steel sold to the Germans...

Hortlund · « **Reply #54 on:** January 21, 2003, 05:18:57 PM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
Yeah Hortlund. No only is this thread stupid in the extreme (criticising the national character of a whole nation?), you're on very shaky ground with regard to criticising other nations for their collaboration with the Nazis.

I wonder how many allied soliders died at the hands of Swedish steel sold to the Germans...

Uh, am I doing that? I have *never* critisised any nation for "collaborating with the Germans". I thought I was critisising the French for their stance on Iraq...

Anyway, it you want to go into that argument, we can. I probably should tell you that in my opinion, Sweden can not be considered to have been neutral during the war. A more correct description would be a passive German ally. So Im not sure how much argument you will find from me. On the other hand I can direct you to some pretty interesting sources (US intel reports from the war) describing how Swedish ball bearing deliveries kept the German industry going after the Schweinfurt raids.

Another interesting tidbit is that the Swedish exports to Germany only halted in NOVEMBER 1944, after severe diplomatic pressure from the US (threats of siezing all Swedish companies assets AND embargo on strategic materials (oil and rubber))

midnight Target · « **Reply #55 on:** January 21, 2003, 05:40:43 PM »

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Originally posted by Hortlund
MT, this is no damn bait. I have told you that TWICE in this thread already. wtf happened to your reading comprehension? And why did you say "I was joking" after the first time you accused me of trolling, if you come back and do it again?

Damn you are good!

I bow to your trolling excellence O great one.

CyranoAH · « **Reply #56 on:** January 21, 2003, 06:30:42 PM »

Troll or not, I'm with France on this one.

Non à la guerre.

Daniel

fd ski · « **Reply #57 on:** January 21, 2003, 07:01:45 PM »

well Steve, at least they FOUGHT and lost instead of bending over for the enemy.

Europe: Documents Reveal Sweden's Ties To Nazi Gold
By Anthony Georgieff

Copenhagen, 27 January 1997 (RFE/RL) - Sweden has joined Switzerland in a process of demystifying financial dealings with Nazi Germany by releasing documents casting doubt on positions of neutrality during the Second World War.

Midway through World War II, both countries, with the full knowledge of their governments and central bank directors, ignored warnings from the Allies about the nature of the gold and other assets they were buying from Germany and continued the trade until the end of the war. As late as 1944, the Swedish National Bank ordered its Swiss financial partners to melt gold bars so they could be stamped with a Swedish insignia to conceal their origin.

These gold bars did not originate only in precious metal expropriated from Jews. In many instances, they had a much more macabre history: they were melted gold teeth, wedding rings and golden glass frames taken from Jews at Auschwitz and other death camps.

Swiss historian Christoph Graf says Switzerland and Sweden were "very much in the same boat" when it came to financial dealings with Nazi Germany, only "the proportions were different."

In fact, documents released recently show that immediately after the war, Switzerland and Sweden had confidential talks to "compare notes" so as not to contradict each other in the face of war-crimes tribunals and possible banking investigations by the Allies.

According to historians, the "dirty trade" encompassed three areas:

The freezing of pre-war accounts held by Jews. By 1940, Sweden outlawed the opening of accounts for non-residents and many Jews mainly from neighbouring countries, including the three Baltic Republic, found they didn't have access to their money.

The purchase of gold that was clearly stolen.

Functioning as a fiscal safe haven for Nazis.
It has been no secret that the wartime Social Democratic government in Sweden -- Sweden has been ruled by the Social Democrats since the 1930s but for the short-lived conservative government of Carl Bildt in the early 1990s -- traded with Hitler's Germany and that Swedish steel manufacturers provided metal for Germany's war industry. Nominally, the country was neutral, and unlike neighbors Norway and Denmark, it was not occupied by Germany. Throughout the war, Stockholm did not turn away Jewish refugees. For example, almost all of Denmark's Jews were transported by Danish fishermen and resistance activists to safety across the sound to Malmoe.

According to documents recently cited in Swedish reports, the family of Raoul Wallenberg, the wartime Swedish diplomat in Budapest who saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews and later died in Russia, is revealed to have participated in the trade of Nazi Germany's wartime gold. The documents suggest the Wallenberg family was sympathetic to the Germans and thought they would win the war.

In 1944, after Raoul Wallenberg had already helped many Jewish families in Hungary, another senior member of the clan, Jacob Wallenberg, attempted to sell state bonds for Nazi gold. However, the Wallenberg family never succeeded in buying the gold. Sweden's National Bank denied the family's request, because, by then it suspected the gold had been stolen.

It is unclear precisely how much gold Sweden had obtained during the war. Estimates vary from "at least" 20,000 kilos to about 34,000 kilos. In the early 1950s, some gold was sent back to its rightful owners. But declassified archives now show that "many tons" of gold are still unaccounted for.

27-01-97

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/1997/01/F.RU.970127141934.html

Sandman · « **Reply #58 on:** January 21, 2003, 09:01:49 PM »

Cool... bring on the veto and stand up against the lunacy of Bush.

What balls!

Hangtime · « **Reply #59 on:** January 21, 2003, 09:31:22 PM »

Hey Hortland I'm with yah (GASP!)

Fargin froggies... I can't freakin believe we gave those wussies a seat in the security council, handed them a key to the nuclear clubhouse and then gave 'em 20-30 billion bucks to replant the freakin toejamholes they call winerys.

For thanks, they've been screwin with us behind our backs non-stop ever since.

Shoulda made France a British protecorate and annexed French East Canada after the war.