Author Topic: comparing Warbirds III to current AH (Read 3841 times)

ergRTC · « **Reply #15 on:** April 07, 2003, 06:43:33 PM »

all you need to do is turn off combat trim to feel all of the prop effects and whatnot that are in the fm for ah. If you have combat trim on, dont even start discussing flight models.

palef · « **Reply #16 on:** April 07, 2003, 08:08:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Revvin

I like the way six views are done in Warbirds, IMHO six views in AH are far too lenient.

Don't agree here - in discussions with R/L WWII fighter pilots over the years (Spitfire and Corsair pilots) the one comment they all made when looking at computer flight sims in general was "how do I move my head to look around the seat/canopy frame?".

AH gets pretty close to this idea by allowing you to set your views so you are "looking" around the obstructions. One limitation is that a direct 6 view only allows you to set up for one side of the aircraft if you only have one view hat..

Also the snap view is a pretty close analogy to the way humans shift their view rapidly - try turning your head quickly to look at a point you picked earlier - you close your eyes during the fast transition automatically and then open them when your head stops. This is an instinctive reflex that if overridden will cause you to either fall down, puke, or both.

palef

ALF · « **Reply #17 on:** April 07, 2003, 09:11:15 PM »

Ive said it before, Im gona say it again...

WB has its controlls WAY WAY WAY too mushy...its like flying with your stick in a vat of grandma's good ol' fassion puddin.

That said, AH controls are somewhat too sharp at low speeds....but just a smidgen...and nowhere near the level of goofiness exibited in WB.

It is true that there is a certain amount of inertia in a rolling plane, and its sure true that WWII fighters are much heavier than many people realize....that said however, you take a wing with an area as large as an F4U has, push it through the air at 300 mph....you arnt gona get the mush factor WB gives you. I sometimes wonder if the mush is there in some wierd attempt to try and mimic the turbulance and uneaven air that is in the real world...but missing in sims due to processing power.....but geez.

Let me end this by saying my flight experience in the "real world" is very limited....but this is the way I see it...and the way freinds of mine with thousands of hours of air under their butts feel too.

Karnak · « **Reply #18 on:** April 07, 2003, 10:17:54 PM »

Apparently a New Zealander veteran Spitfire pilot thought the AH Spitfire was too mushy. Said something like it felt loose and worn out compared with the Spits he flew in the war.

If AH is too mushy, what does that make WBIII?

Reschke · « **Reply #19 on:** April 07, 2003, 11:45:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Revvin
I'd be surprised if Wild Bill even knew what AH was nevermind be able to comment on features he liked.

Can't say for sure that it was his Revvin but the guys ingame nick was "WLDBL" and he was making all sorts of comments on AH. I flew over there less than 10 hours total and spent a good deal of time offline getting a feel for it before going on the server. When I was flying it was prime time US (between 8pm - 12 am) and it was a Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday-Sunday. Weekends I flew different times and never saw more than 45-60 people on all the servers combined. That was just prior to the PTO coming out and while it was still in Beta on the server.

As for the game I ran into some old names from other games and they were not happy. For the most part I gather that the remaining crowd there is waiting on TargetWare to release. Once that happens I would not be surprised if you saw less than 20 people in WB during primetime US hours. But the main thing that turned me off were the simple facts of what I got to calling superwarps of guys taking off that would jump up to several thousand feet and be right on you. It made for some interesting flights and I can only imagine what I appeared to be to them. Hell I warped across four sectors one night and everyone one on my side was jumping all over. The map screen showed dots bouncing all over and that never got any better. In fact it was the last night I played and the next day I went and hit the cancel button and have not looked back.

Target · « **Reply #20 on:** April 08, 2003, 12:26:36 AM »

LOL, can't believe I take a break from AGW to get away from the griping only to find this.

Seriously though, in answer to some comments. There is a certain amount of control "delay" built into Warbirds III. It's appearance, sometime during the first few months of WBIII development was for two reasons. A. To simulate a certain amount of real world control delay. While the action of moving the stick will indeed move a rudder at the same speed as the stick is moved, no real world control in a WWII aircraft could be pushed around as fast as the stick on your desktop can. In order to get the "feel" of pushing the stick with real force the delay "acts" like it takes X pounds of force to perform Y amount of roll.

B. To eliminate "stick stirring". Some players figured out that if you whack the stick back and fourth fast enough, the FE gets a little confused as to just exactly where your orientation is and receives intermittent 100% inputs in opposite directions. The FE doesn't know any better, it sends this info to the host, and your opponent on your six gets an interesting "dancing plane" to try and shoot at.

While the amount of delay is up for debate and we in fact have looked into changing it, it's existence is a good decision I believe and will remain in the game at least to some degree.

As far as Wildbill goes... he's a salesman, what can I say?

It's been company policy for a long time not to discuss other sims, I'll go whap him on the head for you if you want.

ramzey · « **Reply #21 on:** April 08, 2003, 01:30:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Reschke
........................When I was flying it was prime time US (between 8pm - 12 am) and it was a Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday-Sunday. Weekends I flew different times and never saw more than 45-60 people on all the servers combined. That was just prior to the PTO coming out and while it was still in Beta on the server...................

yeap, i saw that too but
when we fly S3 online was over 200 ppls online, more then any euro event. I not know current friday ToD, possibly more too

ramzey

lazs2 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 08, 2003, 08:28:03 AM »

so how do you explain what passes for views and the corsair FM and the "wheel-o-leathiality" that you spin every week? How bout the ol... "wheel-o-damage model" spin you guys do every once in a while.. seems like you listen to about 4 or 6 guys who don't know squat.
lazs

Target · « **Reply #23 on:** April 08, 2003, 08:43:54 AM »

Laz, how can I find a nice way of saying "leave me out of that"?

What I mean is, I don't want any blame, or credit, for anything that happened in regards to Warbirds before January. That's when I took the lead designers slot upon HS's departure. Everything before that was on his say so.

Since then we've implemented some great work by the player run FM team to improve the flight models, and accept for bomb damage, weapons and DM's have not changed.

As far as the corsair cockpit, I would point you to our new Spit 14 pit for an idea of where we're headed with cockpit design.

F4UDOA · « **Reply #24 on:** April 08, 2003, 10:33:05 AM »

Hey Target,

Are you an IEN employee??

Weather you are or not it doesn't really matter I'll ask you anyway.

What makes the FM designers think there was a control deley in aileron response? First off many WW2 fighters had very light ailerons IE FW190, F4U. And even the ones that didn't could be moved to achieved very well documented results. Why would IEN build a lag in response where one did not exist. I may not be a pilot but I do have about 20hours stick time in small A/C and I can garauntee you there is no such deley regardless of P-51 or Cessna. The feeling gives the sensation of being underwater.

FYI, I clocked the F4U rollrate at 300MPH at around 5.5 seconds. That's about 65DPS. I have documents that show 95+DPS with minimal stick force.

Also whats up with not being able to turn you head more than 5DPS? It is very gamey. Because of this WB has never even been more than a novelty.

Also where do you guys get your climb rates and top speeds? I think you have to much annecdotal data in your FM. Some very strange things there indeed.

Reschke · « **Reply #25 on:** April 08, 2003, 11:16:25 AM »

Target,

Thanks for dropping in on us over here. You are welcome to come fly anytime you wish with us in VF-17 if you ever want to get out of the same old rut.

I think when I said he was berating about joining a squadron might have been a bit harsh. It is not something a trial time guy like me wanted to keep hearing. I understand about him wanting his product to be the best; hell if he didn't then something would be wrong in WBland. But from the outside looking in for a brief time there are some really glaring things I would change.

So if you want to shoot me an email I would be willing to put down my experiences in the time since WB3 has been out. I would rather do that than keep on about WB3 in HTC's forum. My email is linked through my profile.

~~! The invite is open whenever you want to come fly with our small group here in AH.~~

Target · « **Reply #26 on:** April 08, 2003, 12:42:25 PM »

Yes F4U, I'm the lead designer. See my post above vis a vis control delay.

Reschke, feel free to drop me a line at mdavis@ient.com

There is a pile this high (holds hand over his head) of stuff we plan on getting fixed/changed/totally revamped for the next release. Most of it is UI stuff. It's been my opinion for a long time that the biggest impediment to new players in Warbirds has been the interface.

Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts about your time with us.

WldThing · « **Reply #27 on:** April 08, 2003, 12:45:00 PM »

Flew Warbirds for about an hour before i decided i didnt like it. It was about 11 AM and there was only 11 players on..Not my kind of multiplayer game..

ccvi · « **Reply #28 on:** April 08, 2003, 01:18:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Target
While the amount of delay is up for debate and we in fact have looked into changing it, it's existence is a good decision I believe and will remain in the game at least to some degree.

The amount of delay isn't what causes trouble. It's simply the problem that the delay (lack of force to move) of the virtual stick/control surfaces doesn't depend on the virtual sticks position/force required, but on the position of the players joystick. As a result moving the virtual stick near the center while the players stick is fully deflected the move is already delayed.

Unless that changed meanwhile, haven't tried it for quite some time now.

bowser · « **Reply #29 on:** April 08, 2003, 06:06:10 PM »

"...B. To eliminate "stick stirring"....".

I can attest to that. The main reason I and a lot of others left WBs. Most people called it "flopping like a fish". Picture a fish flopping on the end of the line, standing on its head, thrashing about etc. Guys who knew what they were doing could do it for miles without any loss of E. With the lack of gun lethality, it was almost impossible to kill them. Kind of funny in retrospect but very frustrating at the time.

bowser