Author Topic: P 51 antidote  (Read 2447 times)

Offline -lynx-

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P 51 antidote
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2000, 07:51:00 AM »
 
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... No conspiracy, just US kids playability issue...


Just a thought for you Hristo: most LW squadrons in WB were based in the States/staffed by the Americans... I don't know for sure but I can't see any reason for it to be different here in AH, do you?


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lynx
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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2000, 08:26:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by -lynx-:

Just a thought for you Hristo: most LW squadrons in WB were based in the States/staffed by the Americans... I don't know for sure but I can't see any reason for it to be different here in AH, do you?

WB has a bit different planes and community...
in AH theres many of those who haven't even seen flight simulator sort of game.

Then follows another question; Why are these people so much against suggestions/complains of "LW" pilot with their diagrams/tests while they feel themself better to give suggestions/complains with same level of diagrams/tests and then x+1 agrees with it and only who might not are "LW".

Seems strange to me... if it is about allied plane, everyone just agrees and squeakes how HT should make it up - but about LW planes... x+1 allies whining against it.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2000, 09:48:00 AM »
Verm:

Equal pilots: one in c202, one in P-51D. Which is more likely to get away? Has the P-51D pilot a higher chance of getting away than if he was fighting a ME262?

Add anothber scenario; hi 51 bounce wing of planes with 51 type speed. 51 makes one tiny error when pursuing one, and the other one cuts the corner and is gaining. Likely if it was two 202's?

While I agree that the pilot is the main thing, plane performance *is* an issue.

I've had *many* encounters with P-51's where I've gained on a P51, seen the distance go down to 800 before growing again. If it had been 1.03, I'd been in an 109G10, and that 51 would have been dead.

Also, when several enemies are near, it is easy to lose just a little bit of SA and thusly enable one bandit to come in with an e advantage. Of course, if it is A8's vs 51's, no problem for the pony.

Yeah, the LW has a fast plane, the G10. Unfortunately, with the new patch, I find it reduced in effectiveness in terms of killing with more than 50%. Everyone know I loved the G10; now I exclusively fly the 190's. There is a reason for this.

Give JG54 the Dora, and I can assure you that our deaths will go down (since we can run more effectively) and our kills up (since we can catch runners more effectively).

Pilot skill is a non issue once you are on the deck roughly same e state and the target you're chasing has a higher top speed, if the distance is say 2.5k or more.

Overall, I must admit that I find the pony to be a better plane than both the A5 and A8, even if we don't count top speed.

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StSanta
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2000, 09:52:00 AM »
Hristo,
I don't see the Fw190D-9 as a "dweebmobil" and I DO want it to be added to AH.  With MW50.

You say its an icon?

You say that LW fans just want to fly it because its the best the Germans had?

Well, I think the same of the Spitfire MkXIV, but look how badly I've been torn up for stating that.  You are the only LW fan that I can think of that didn't have a problem with it.  I see about half of the so called "Allied" pilots on each side of the Fw190D-9 debate, whereas the LW fans were nearly unanimous in their condemnation of my request for the Spitfire MkXIV.  If they both get added the LW fans whining would be unending, for that reason I say add the Fw190D-9 and forget the Spitfire MkXIV.

We RAFantics will muddle through with our 1942 fighters and not whine about ONLY having 2 1944 fighters.

Sisu
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Petals floating by,
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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2000, 11:04:00 AM »
I can say that I have never flown Dora much in WarBirds because I found it too much unmaneuverable.
I like planes that are not easy to maneuver  

..but still it would be very good for sides to be balanced.

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2000, 11:56:00 AM »
 
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Equal pilots: one in c202, one in P-51D. Which is more likely to get away?

My whole discussion was on planes of near similar ability, for instance the Dora and the P-51. The point was that even if its slightly faster (say the MW50 Dora), the Pony could still outrun it given a smart skilled pilot. Your changing the whole debate, when you go to severly disimilar aircraft.

 
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I've had *many* encounters with P-51's where I've gained on a P51, seen the distance go down to 800 before growing again.

Thats because the P-51 pilot correctly read the relative E states, the situation, and knew when it was time to get away. Whats wrong with that?

Its the same for everyone. You pick an aircraft that you want to fly and you live with its characteristics. If you don't like it, pick another.

To me, the Dora is no big deal and I'm all for its inclusion in the planeset. I would fly against it, just like I fly against P51's. And yes I would fly the Dora itself, just like I currently fly the P-51, F4U, Yak-9U, and the 109G10.

 
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Also, when several enemies are near, it is easy to lose just a little bit of SA and thusly enable one bandit to come in with an e advantage. Of course, if it is A8's vs 51's, no problem for the pony.

Losing SA in the arena is a problem for everyone, if you lose it, its your own fault. Period.

And the part of a Pony being able to easily outrun a A8 that has a significant alt advantage? Bull crap. Pure Luftbabble propaganda.  

 
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Yeah, the LW has a fast plane, the G10. Unfortunately, with the new patch, I find it reduced in effectiveness in terms of killing with more than 50%.

So? Every BnZ type aircraft has had an across the board cut in effectiveness. It effected them all, no just the G10's. It made hitting enemy aircraft much more difficult for all aircraft, because they are now pulling much harder into defensive manuevers.

So now, your prefer the 190 because it has more guns (meaning any hit is more effective), and a MUCH larger ammo load, and you can afford to put more ammo downrange hoping for a hit. Thats totally understandably and there's nothing wrong with that. But don't complain because you gave up the speed for the firepower, its your choice.

 
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Give JG54 the Dora, and I can assure you that our deaths will go down (since we can run more effectively) and our kills up (since we can catch runners more effectively).

You may catch other aircraft much more easily, but I dont think you will catch too many more P-51's. Fight them to a draw easier maybe, but kill them outright, not necessarily.  Mainly because the P51 pilots will fly differently against a Dora, than a A8. The P-51's will go to more Pony vs Pony tactics (which they already know well) which will negate that increase in speed.

 
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Pilot skill is a non issue once you are on the deck roughly same e state and the target you're chasing has a higher top speed, if the distance is say 2.5k or more.

No, but by that time the fight is already decided. Pilot skill however is an issue, in the fight up until this point. Which is what is important.

 
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Overall, I must admit that I find the pony to be a better plane than both the A5 and A8, even if we don't count top speed.

I agree. These characteristics are what made the Mustang famous or infamous depending on your point of view. Thats historical. Wishful thinking or a preference of our favorite airforce, will not and should not change that.

My point is that you guys (the so called "Luftwaffe" contingent) are constantly and continually complaining about the P-51 and the F4U-1C, to the point that it irritates the rest of the community so much it makes them sick to their stomachs.

I fly the Yak-9U and the 109G10 alot, and I have no problem dealing with either of these aircraft.  You dont' see me complaining in every thread that pops up.

What about the British aircraft pilots? the Japanese aircraft pilots? the Russian pilots, the dedicated Italian pilots? Or even the whole rest of the community that flys a little bit of everything? None of other groups, continuously moan and complain to this magnitude.

Why is this? We all face the same situations in the arena, day in and day out. We all face lose of SA or disimilar aircraft characteristics. If you don't like the plane you fly, pick another, its real simple.

Each and Every one of the members of the community face the same challenges each time we leave the runway.

If you think an aircraft is modeled wrong, present data and prove your point. But don't continuous squeak about a plane because its characteristics outfight the aircraft you have chosen.

And Santa, this is not all directly aimed at you. For one of the "Luftwaffe" contingent, your easily the best about listening to factual data and reasonable debate. But jeez talk to your boys will yah?

Its to the point that many members of the community (unfortunately including myself), have heard so many continuous moans and whines, that when a real issue is brought  up, they simply disregard it and assume its another baseless complaint.

*rant mode off*

That all said, I am all for having a Fw190D in AcesHigh.  I always have been.

But its not going to all of a sudden show the superiority of all the Luftwaffe pilots in the game, and even the playing field.

Its just another plane.

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Vermillion
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Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2000, 01:45:00 PM »
For some reason this thread reminds me of a few months ago when the FW-190A-5 was the subject of a similar discussion....

 


J_A_B

Offline jmccaul

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« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2000, 03:00:00 PM »
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===========================================
What about the British aircraft pilots? the Japanese aircraft pilots? the Russian pilots, the dedicated Italian pilots? Or even the whole rest of the community that flys a little bit of everything? None of other groups, continuously moan and complain to this magnitude.
===========================================

Come on Verm i think the Brits managed to work up a fair squeak for thier out of date planeset, obviously it wasn't as accomplished as the LW due to the fact that in the world of online gaming the LW have been consistantly persecuted due their superior pilots and are therefore experts.

I have a dream though one day the RAF will be able to moan on equal terms with the LW, one day the children of the RAF will pull off the simultaneous self-pitying and self-agrandizing whine, but this will not be an isolated post we will manage to whine consistantly for months about the same subject, even the fact that the current thread has no apparent relavence to that particular whine we will whine on.

 We will whine on the noticeboards, we will whine on the mailing lists, we will whine on channel one, we will never surrender*.

Never in the field of human interaction will have so many be whined at by so few about so little.

Remember old chap, stiff upper lips - the brits will whine with the best of them.  

*stop whining

Spinout

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« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2000, 03:30:00 PM »
jmccaul, u forgot the rest:

"So let us brace ourselves to our duty, so that if the whining should last for a thousand years, men will still say...

This was their whiniest hour"

Right on, Verm. I routinely run away from and run down "faster" planes. It all depends on who is actually going faster *right now*. I could count on my hand the number of fights i've had where the outcome was decided by a 15mph top speed advantage.

I say bring on the D, my yak will kill it just like it does ponies  

Offline RAM

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« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2000, 03:43:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Well, I think the same of the Spitfire MkXIV, but look how badly I've been torn up for stating that.  You are the only LW fan that I can think of that didn't have a problem with it.  I see about half of the so called "Allied" pilots on each side of the Fw190D-9 debate, whereas the LW fans were nearly unanimous in their condemnation of my request for the Spitfire MkXIV.  If they both get added the LW fans whining would be unending, for that reason I say add the Fw190D-9 and forget the Spitfire MkXIV.


Bring a MW50 Dora9 and get your SPitfireXIV. I still think XIV is too much for a MW50 190D9 (and for a P51), but get it.

Bring a Dora9 with no MW50, and PERK Spitfire XIV. Because there will be only other nonperk choice to counter the mosnter:P51D. And damnit I DONT WANT TO FLY A P51 in arena because German planeset lacks its KEY plane with its historical performance!

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2000, 04:39:00 PM »
Verm for President!

 

Hang

PS.. "Dora.. the other White Meat"
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2000, 04:41:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by RAM:
Bring a Dora9 with no MW50, and PERK Spitfire XIV. Because there will be only other nonperk choice to counter the mosnter:P51D. And damnit I DONT WANT TO FLY A P51 in arena because German planeset lacks its KEY plane with its historical performance!

So, what you're saying RAM, is that you will only fly German aircraft and so you insist that nothing be added that is a challenge for the top German aircraft?

Gee, I wonder how the historical Luftwaffe pilots delt with the P-51D and Spitfire Mk F.XIV before they had the Fw190D-9?

Ah well.

Bring in the Fw190D-9 with MW50.  I'll kill them with my Spitfire MkIX and Typhoon.

Sisu
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Petals floating by,
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Offline RAM

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« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2000, 05:07:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Karnak:
So, what you're saying RAM, is that you will only fly German aircraft and so you insist that nothing be added that is a challenge for the top German aircraft?

Hummm no, I say that as I only (mostly) fly German iron, I want (need) a plane able to counter the best of the other side. I don't ask it to be better (non MW50 D9 is worse than P51, MW50 D9 is worse than SpitXIV and equal to P51). but I DO ask that please the gap not to be too big. SpitXIV is a monster by itself, but to try to counter it with a non MW50 Fw190D9 is suicidal.

Offline SOB

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« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2000, 06:42:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Fishu:
WB has a bit different planes and community...
in AH theres many of those who haven't even seen flight simulator sort of game.

Then follows another question; Why are these people so much against suggestions/complains of "LW" pilot with their diagrams/tests while they feel themself better to give suggestions/complains with same level of diagrams/tests and then x+1 agrees with it and only who might not are "LW".

Seems strange to me... if it is about allied plane, everyone just agrees and squeakes how HT should make it up - but about LW planes... x+1 allies whining against it.

...or maybe people just don't like to hear whiney babies cry about how LuftWaffle planes are being left out on purpose because of a big conspiracy against them and their pilots.  Or maybe they're not interested in hearing how great wafflie pilots are in their horribly inadequate hardware.  Or maybe they're not interested in the opinion of someone who doesn't even subscribe to the game.

Bring the friggin' D9, bring the 262, whatever, just quit yer squeaking!  I'll continue to avoid your diving dweebmobiles in my DweebNiki.


SOB
...perhaps HTC doesn't give a toejam about LW vs. Allied.  Could it be that they're just trying to add variety to the sim with additional aircraft, and haven't added another 190 (or spit for that matter), because AH already has variants of those fighters?!?  Naaaa, couldn't be!
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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2000, 07:01:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by SOB:
Or maybe they're not interested in the opinion of someone who doesn't even subscribe to the game.

Without paying or paying customer I have same right, and according to you, as paying customer I have even bigger right to ask for changes.