school vouchers

[Kieran]

Originally posted by capt. apathy
all it would take is wording in the voucher law that would state it as being given to the parent for educating the child.  or even do away with the voucher itself and just give the parent a tax credit equal to the money alocated per child in their school district.  the only requirement for gov't involvment should be the same as for home-school now. (as it has been explained to me the kid has to take tests and meet standard and show improvement,  basicly is the program working).

all it would take is an aknowledgement that this is a danger and petting language in the law to insulate the program from too much gov't involvement

Under a voucher program I doubt you would ever physically hold a dime. The voucher would be just that- a voucher. You submit it to the school of your choice, and they submit it for the funds. If a cursory check of the school finds the school isn't measuring up to state or federal guidelines for schools receiving such moneys- BAM! Money withheld. Private schools will either be on the list or they won't. No way parents will just get the money as a tax credit; many parents would spend it on a new car and cry poverty. No, the government will ensure they know exactly where the money is going, and how it is being spent.

[Rude]

Originally posted by banana
Exactly.

Rude, I commend you on caring enough about your kids' education to be very involved, but IMO your animosity towards teachers is misplaced and influenced by the reactionary right.

fd-ski speaks the truth. I was a teacher for 5 years in the public schools, and I know for a fact that every kid who wanted to learn and had caring parents, learned a ton.

Don't blame the teachers for the failings of a generation of disconnected parents. Parents expect teachers to somehow force their kids to learn by magic, without working at it at home, and without being respectful during school. That is nonsense.

As a highly skilled teacher in my profession,  I welcome extensive testing of all teachers. Those who pass the tests should be recognized as being superior in their subject and paid on a par with other professions.

Rude, the "system" may be broken, but the teachers sure aren't.

Wank....

I never said teachers were the problem, however, some are I'm sure. It's the system....especially the administrators and absolutely the school boards.

[Rude]

Originally posted by fd ski
yes Rude, but benefits you describe only occur in current situation with mostly public schools and very few, and very expensive private schools.

Let me give you a sceanrio here:
All private schools, all vouchers, so on so fourth.
First item of competition: PRICE. I know you will argue till you are blue in the face that quality of education will be a detemining factor, but fact remains that right mix of MARKETING and PRICING always wins. Want an example ? Fighter Ace vs AH - look at populations between the games. Same applies to all things which are marketed.

So say we have two schools: They both have same ammount of money.
One invests in training better teachers, other hires good PR agency and does a huge campaign. It hires worst teachers to cut costs and convinces everyone in town that "we are better then the other school". Net result is that next year, the school with better teachers has to do very much the same else it will go out of business. Price war proceeds, teacher salaries get slashed. Can you say videoconference lecuture over teh internet from outsourced indian teacher ?

There are some things that are so important and unmeasurable that they shouldn't be a subject to "free market" practices:
education and healthcare.
As it stands our school system has a potential to do great, but parents and silly laws are preventing that from happening.
Opening the system up to mega corporations and CEOs crunching "number of chalks/classroom vs profit" ratios isn't going to fix the very core of the system. As long as tax payers are paying for schools - parents won't care.

The only answer is to engage parents. And the only way i see at this point to make that happend: Charge them directly.
Leave public schools, and charge parents tuition based on their kid's grades. Better grade - lower tuition.
When mommy and daddy get slapped with 3000$ a year bill because Johnny is a fricking moron and nobody paid any attention to his schoolwork, maybe they will change their approach.

Good idea:)

[Rude]

Originally posted by banana
Then it's your state's problem. Minnesota is one of the best states in the nation to get a solid public school education in.

Minnesotan's as a whole value education as a top priority, and hence we pay more in taxes to get that education. If the people in your state don't have their priorities in order, that's their business.

AKIron, not talking about you or your situation, but in general, I've heard that argument before. "The teacher didn't like me" or "It's the teacher's fault I didn't get an A".

Bull.

There is something called personal accountability, something which is sadly lacking in today's society. Ask any Rebulican, they'll agree with me. But when it comes to education, they conveniently forget this, and instead play the blame game against teachers.

Republicans don't blame teachers...for the most part we just believe that spouting lies about inadequate funding as the problem with our school systems is just pain dishonest.

I agree totally with you that the parents have let the children down and that all the money in the world won't fix that.

[fd ski]

Thank you Rude, i'll be here till sunday. Make sure you try the veal

On which subject, i wonder how those private schools would be "defined". Here, me and 3 of my buddies start a "private school" for our kids only. We hold in each of our own houses, each teaching our own kids. Basically home schooling. Any reason why our new private school couldn't cash the vouchers ?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by fd ski
Thank you Rude, i'll be here till sunday. Make sure you try the veal

On which subject, i wonder how those private schools would be "defined". Here, me and 3 of my buddies start a "private school" for our kids only. We hold in each of our own houses, each teaching our own kids. Basically home schooling. Any reason why our new private school couldn't cash the vouchers ?

Why not? Provided you're a state certified teacher.

[Rude]

Here's a fine example of our tax dollars being spent by the KCMO School District.

Singer to be paid $15,000 to perform for KC School District convocation
By MATT CAMPBELL
The Kansas City Star

Singer Oleta Adams has been hired for $15,000 to perform at a back-to-school rally for Kansas City School District educators and administrators.

The event, called a convocation, will be Aug. 18 at Community of Christ Auditorium in Independence. That is the day more than 3,500 district staffers are to report for duty before classes begin Aug. 25.

District officials said the event was intended to show appreciation to educators and encourage a positive attitude going into a new school year in which the district faces many challenges.

One big challenge is dealing with a smaller budget that will mean fewer teachers and librarians. At least one Board of Education member is skeptical about the entertainment cost for the convocation.

"Fifteen thousand dollars would buy 600 books at $25 apiece," said Duane Kelly, a former teacher in the district. "There's about 75 schools. That's about eight books per school in the library. There are different ways of doing things. I'm more inclined to go with books that will last for years than this sort of thing."

But Edwin Birch, spokesman for the district and organizer of the convocation, said tough financial times would make an inspirational gathering for the staff even more important.

"We have to make sure we keep people's morale up," he said. "I think Oleta Adams is classy. Having her sing for our teachers speaks volumes."

Birch said the district anticipated criticism of the decision to hire Adams and had sought help from private organizations and businesses to defray the costs of the convocation. He estimated the event would cost more than $20,000, including Adams, auditorium rental and buses to transport staffers to Independence.

Birch said the district had received about $10,000 in donations toward the convocation so far.

In addition to the performance by Adams, the program for this year's three-hour convocation includes an address by Kansas City Councilwoman and minister Saundra McFadden-Weaver, remarks from Superintendent Bernard Taylor Jr., and performances by a comedian and students.

Adams, who lives in the Kansas City area, is contracted to deliver a 40- to 45-minute performance.

According to the district's contract with the William Morris Agency, which represents Adams, the artist's requirements for her dressing room include makeup lighting and mirrors, a deli tray, two bottles of Evian water, orange juice, coffee and tea.

[Rude]

Here's another.

Public School Pays Students To Attend Class
Some Parents, Officials Split Over Plan

POSTED: 7:06 p.m. CDT July 8, 2003
UPDATED: 7:58 p.m. CDT July 8, 2003

KANSAS CITY, Mo. --
Video
 
 
School Gives Gifts To Keep Kids In Class  
 
 
 
 
Should students be paid to go to school? That was the big issue as the Kansas City, Mo., School District handed out more than 1,100 gift certificates to students on Tuesday.

The trend is an emerging one, KMBC's Micheal Mahoney reported. Some students are getting paid to go to school, especially summer school.

In the past, students went to summer school to make up for classes they flunked. But now, many kids go to class during the summer to get ahead.  

At Central High School, some students took a summer course on William Shakespeare this year. Central has the lowest summer-school attendance rate in the district, but still, four out of five students show up for class, Mahoney reported. Many officials are convinced that gift certificates are a factor.

 SURVEY
The Kansas City, Mo., School District issues $50 gift certificates to students who have perfect attendance to some classes. Is this a good policy?
Yes
No



Results  |  Disclaimer
 
"The incentive does a great job of helping with the attendance. I think it's also a great motivational resource tool that you can use for kids," said William McClendon, principal of Central High.

And students don't seem to mind the plan, either.

"I'm not saying that you're supposed to need it, but it kind of helps the kids, and this is an urban school district," said Richard Martin, a student at Central. "You know, there's a lot of problems with attendance, especially in our district."

While students rarely turn down the gift certificates, some parents don't care for the idea.

"I don't think they should be paid for this. You know, that's why they have summer jobs. Because if kids think they can get paid for everything they do, it seems to me, sometimes that might make them not want to do nothing else unless they get some money for it," Central parent Rachelle Abernathy said.

A number of other school districts in the area have similar gift-certificate programs for summer-school attendance, Mahoney reported. In the Kansas City district, a student with perfect attendance gets a $50 gift certificate. If they miss one day, students still get a certificate for $25.

[Fatty]

I don't see why not Ski.

Though personally I'd prefer private schools be required to admit a percentage of students under 'vouchers' at zero charge to either the gov't or the families, in exchange for being allowed to operate.

[Rude]

Originally posted by fd ski
Thank you Rude, i'll be here till sunday. Make sure you try the veal

On which subject, i wonder how those private schools would be "defined". Here, me and 3 of my buddies start a "private school" for our kids only. We hold in each of our own houses, each teaching our own kids. Basically home schooling. Any reason why our new private school couldn't cash the vouchers ?

Not acredited by the state.

[Kieran]

Originally posted by Fatty
I don't see why not Ski.

Though personally I'd prefer private schools be required to admit a percentage of students under 'vouchers' at zero charge to either the gov't or the families, in exchange for being allowed to operate.

You mean operate under cost?

[fd ski]

Fatty: then we are getting into equal opportunity discussion and that........  can i say it..... COMMUNIST ?
I would argue against such a move. Doesn't accomplish anything.

Rude:
State credited teachers, fine. How many ? Also, it's a private school, do private schools today have to have state credited teachers ? All of them ? Somehow i'd guess that most heavly religious schools don't, or at least not all. If that's a case, i'll get credited and open a school "Bart's Kick bellybutton High". You can open a charter of my school anywhere in the state, i have proper accreditation, you teach your own kid and i get 10% of your voutcher money. Once a month you bring a kid for a "test" consisting of two questions "which way is up, and where is the check ?"

Would that work ?

[Fatty]

As I said, if it weren't for the elitist democrat capitalists, poor kids would have the same opportunities as rich ones.



Yes Kieran.  A business expense for private schools if you will.  Or as a tax that is actually progressive to ease the incredibly regressive property tax.

How's that for out democrating the democrats?

[lazs2]

you guys are still missing the point... the public school system is broken.... beyond broken reall... there is no system that could do worse.   we have reached dropout and idiot saturation point in our public schools.  

the teachers n this board tell us that we are the buerocracy and that we should fix public schools and that they would love to see em "fixed" but.... I don't ever see any suggestion from any union teacher that is pointed toward improving teaching.... only toward getting even more money while working even less hours.   Hving the facility open 12 months a year would cut costs and improve education but I don't see any teachers suggesting that.   or accademic standards.

The only thing I ever see from teachers is defense of the broken system so they really have very little credibility with me when they say "it can be fixed"  

On a private school level it does get fixed... if you don't like something enough... if you think it is hindering you kids education... you vote with your checkbook.... in the public school you are powerless.... who of us got to vote on blingual education?  or any of a number of silly programs?
lazs

[Kieran]

Lazs, I am non-union teacher. I have offered a solution. I have also advised things will not change a bit so long as the root cause exists. Where it happens will matter little, the problems will continue to exist. In addition, any teacher will tell you ripping a kid in and out of school is extremely detrimental to their education, so "voting with your checkbook" will hurt your kid in the long haul- if you exercise the right every time you get upset about something.

I wonder how many private schools would really crop up, how many could be successful, what the critical mass would be, how the margin would be made, etc. I understand you don't have kids in school anymore, and you don't like to see your tax dollars spent this way. Fair enough. OTOH, have you considered the possibility this system could actually lead to a decline in educational standards? What if private education drove education under... then in a few short years private schools decide there is no way to make money in the business under federal regulation (which WOULD exist). They close the doors, and students go...? Not trying to play a doomsday card, but it has to be considered as a possibility.

I also have to laugh at people who believe schools had less of a dropout rate "back in the day". LOL! A lot of the people spouting crap like "our kids can't pass the state tests" can't pass the test themselves. Where were THEY educated? At those mythical "better" schools of old?

You regular education parents need to decide on your agenda and stick with it. Write your congressmen, apply some pressure to your school boards, and become the advocates the special interest parents have successfully become. Do that, and it won't matter where you go to school. Don't do that and things will never get better- public or private.