Author Topic: spit14 vs. p38?  (Read 6694 times)

Offline Guppy35

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2003, 02:30:31 PM »
According to his own account, Lowell says it was a P38L and it took place right before they got 51s so say June/early July 44.  He say the Spit XV had a 5 bladed prop so he clearly meant an XIV and he says the RAF pilot's name was Wing Commander Donaldson.  (I've not been able to find out who that is.  There was a S/L E.M. Donaldson who flew in the B of B.  That's my best guess, but it would also add to the theory that this wasn't a currant operational combat pilot as there were few if any B of B Squadron Leaders still flying combat in 44)

Dan/Slack

btw the Seafire XV was floating around prior to this time.  My AH namesake, F/L Tom Slack of 41 Squadron RAF, test flew one that dropped in at thier field on April 28, 1944.  This XV had been modified with a full blown bubble canopy and they wanted an operational pilot's opinion.  As 41 had XIIs at the time it made sense they'd get asked.  While I believe Lowell fought an XIV, it is/was possible that it was an XV


Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
I doubt it was a Seafire XV, deliveries of those didn't start until March 45.

Also, in August 44, the 364th FG converted to P-51s, so any P-38s around "in late winter" are no longer operational planes.

In other words, you have a report of a mock dogfight from one side only, with a non operational p-38 against an unkown mark of Spitfire (probably a XIV). Using it to judge relative performance is wrong, there just isn't enough accurate information in the story.

I'm not saying the Spitfire was better than the P-38 or vice-versa, but using a story that can't even get the model of the Spitfire correct as the basis of your judgement is a bit silly.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline MiloMorai

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2003, 02:40:34 PM »
Guppy35, what was the Supermarine Type number for this Spifire Mk XV?

Offline HoHun

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2003, 02:48:36 PM »
Hi Guppy,

>He say the Spit XV had a 5 bladed prop so he clearly meant an XIV and he says the RAF pilot's name was Wing Commander Donaldson.  (I've not been able to find out who that is.  There was a S/L E.M. Donaldson who flew in the B of B.  

Good information! Since you mentioned them, could it have been a Spitfire XII, too?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Guppy35

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Lowell's account
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2003, 02:50:41 PM »
I dug out the book with Lowell's own account and typed it up.  Hope that adds to the confusion :)  Clearly it's an XIV and clearly it took place in July 44 based on the 51s about to arrive.

Dan/Slack

John Lowell, Quoted in the book "Top Guns" by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan

"Our group received several P38Ls just before the P51s arrived.  This latest Lightning had dive flaps under the wings, improved power and a gun camera located away from the nose.  On a day we were stood down, General Eisenhower arranged for one of the top English Aces, Wing Commander Donaldson, to come to Honington and show us slides of English Spitfires that had been equipped with external tanks loke US Fighters.  Those tanks allowed Spitfires to penetrate deep into Germany.  Most of the US pilots didn’t know about the Spits long range, and some of the Spitfires had been fired upon before American pilots realized their insignia was the Royal Air Force and not a German Swastika.  ME-109s, P-51s and Spitfires were not easily distinguishable from one another until close enough to make combat.

All the 364th Fighter Group Pilots attended Donaldson’s slide picture presentation in our briefing room.  When he finished, he described the new Spitfire XV he had flown to our base.  It had a five-bladed prop, a bigger engine, and improved firepower.  Then he said, “If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!”

The entire group started clapping and hollered “Big John! Big John!”

That was me, so I asked him, “What is your fuel load?”

He replied, “Half petrol.”

“What is your combat load?”

He said, “No ammo.”

We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes.  I took off in a new P38L after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter balance, dropped the external tanks and sucked out half the internal fuel load.  I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph.  When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail.  When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail.  Naturally he turned into a full power right Lufbery as I closed in.  I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we’d had hot guns he would have been shot down.  He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-Sed from about 1000 feet.  I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.

The men of the 364th were watching this fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several told me later that they though I would crash.  But they were wrong!.  All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again.  He was apparently surprised.  He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base."
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Guppy35

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2003, 02:52:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Guppy35, what was the Supermarine Type number for this Spifire Mk XV?



Seafire XV was Supermarine Type 377/386

Dan/Slack
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Offline MiloMorai

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2003, 03:02:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Guppy,

>Since you mentioned them, could it have been a Spitfire XII, too?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


The Mk XII was fitted with a 4 blade Rotol R13/4F5/5 Durol(6 a/c) and then the R13/4F5/6 Jablo. both 10'5" dia.

---------

Nice fight with an equal start altitude.:eek:

------

A Seafire ;)  which is not a Spitfire.

Offline HoHun

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Re: Lowell's account
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2003, 03:36:45 PM »
Hi Guppy,

Thanks for the post! Sounds like a very credible description to me.

Lowell obviously had an energy advantage at the merge, which the Spitfire pilot failed to realize. (The Spitfire may have wasted additional energy by a turning overly hard or into Lowell's hemisphere.)

The "rope" (in gamers' terms) was followed by the inevitable vertical diving attack, which the Spitfire tried to evade by turning. I imagine the "clover-leaf" was a manoeuvre based on a lag-turn to provide a momentary firing solution ... "and if we’d had hot guns he would have been shot down."

The low-altitude split-S looks like a typical "last ditch" defense, and maybe Lowell shouldn't have tried to match it :-)

(His "new flaps" probably didn't help him much as they were meant for high mach-numbers - the old "combat flap" setting was more valuable low and slow.)

The story shows excellent tactics by Lowell - remember that energy maneuvering wasn't invented yet! - and very predictable tactics by an overconfident Spitfire pilot.

The story has an odd déja-vu element to it as the sequence is so familiar from fights in the online skies ;-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2003, 03:38:35 PM »
Hi Milo,

>The Mk XII was fitted with a 4 blade Rotol R13/4F5/5 Durol(6 a/c) and then the R13/4F5/6 Jablo. both 10'5" dia.

Ah, thanks! I wasn't aware the Spitfire XII had a 4-bladed propeller.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline F4UDOA

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2003, 03:50:59 PM »
What does this thread prove again??

Offline Guppy35

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2003, 05:09:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
What does this thread prove again??



Essentially it proves that more often then not it's the pilot not the plane, in particular when the planes are closely matched?  :)

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Lowell's account
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2003, 01:24:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
I dug out the book with Lowell's own account and typed it up.  Hope that adds to the confusion :)  Clearly it's an XIV and clearly it took place in July 44 based on the 51s about to arrive.

Dan/Slack

John Lowell, Quoted in the book "Top Guns" by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan

"Our group received several P38Ls just before the P51s arrived.  This latest Lightning had dive flaps under the wings, improved power and a gun camera located away from the nose.  On a day we were stood down, General Eisenhower arranged for one of the top English Aces, Wing Commander Donaldson, to come to Honington and show us slides of English Spitfires that had been equipped with external tanks loke US Fighters.  Those tanks allowed Spitfires to penetrate deep into Germany.  Most of the US pilots didn’t know about the Spits long range, and some of the Spitfires had been fired upon before American pilots realized their insignia was the Royal Air Force and not a German Swastika.  ME-109s, P-51s and Spitfires were not easily distinguishable from one another until close enough to make combat.

All the 364th Fighter Group Pilots attended Donaldson’s slide picture presentation in our briefing room.  When he finished, he described the new Spitfire XV he had flown to our base.  It had a five-bladed prop, a bigger engine, and improved firepower.  Then he said, “If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!”

The entire group started clapping and hollered “Big John! Big John!”

That was me, so I asked him, “What is your fuel load?”

He replied, “Half petrol.”

“What is your combat load?”

He said, “No ammo.”

We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes.  I took off in a new P38L after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter balance, dropped the external tanks and sucked out half the internal fuel load.  I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph.  When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail.  When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail.  Naturally he turned into a full power right Lufbery as I closed in.  I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we’d had hot guns he would have been shot down.  He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-Sed from about 1000 feet.  I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.

The men of the 364th were watching this fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several told me later that they though I would crash.  But they were wrong!.  All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again.  He was apparently surprised.  He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base."



Great story!  Thanks for posting his first hand account of the mock fight.


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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Re: Lowell's account
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2003, 01:39:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Guppy,

Thanks for the post! Sounds like a very credible description to me.

Lowell obviously had an energy advantage at the merge, which the Spitfire pilot failed to realize. (The Spitfire may have wasted additional energy by a turning overly hard or into Lowell's hemisphere.)

The "rope" (in gamers' terms) was followed by the inevitable vertical diving attack, which the Spitfire tried to evade by turning. I imagine the "clover-leaf" was a manoeuvre based on a lag-turn to provide a momentary firing solution ... "and if we’d had hot guns he would have been shot down."

The low-altitude split-S looks like a typical "last ditch" defense, and maybe Lowell shouldn't have tried to match it :-)

(His "new flaps" probably didn't help him much as they were meant for high mach-numbers - the old "combat flap" setting was more valuable low and slow.)

The story shows excellent tactics by Lowell - remember that energy maneuvering wasn't invented yet! - and very predictable tactics by an overconfident Spitfire pilot.

The story has an odd déja-vu element to it as the sequence is so familiar from fights in the online skies ;-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


The 'Clover-Leaf' is a low/stall speed maneuver that takes advantage of the low speed handling and gentle stall characteristics of the P-38.  And you're correct, at the altitude they were flying at, there would have been no need for Lowell to engage his dive flaps, even at 600mph.  I can be pretty sure though that the combat and normal flaps sure got one hell of a work out though.


ack-ack
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Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline davidpt40

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2003, 12:21:51 PM »
Quote
I took off in a new P38L


I knew it was a P38L, everyone was screaming "P38H P38H".

Offline HoHun

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Re: Re: Re: Lowell's account
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2003, 01:52:12 PM »
Hi Ack-Ack,

>And you're correct, at the altitude they were flying at, there would have been no need for Lowell to engage his dive flaps, even at 600mph.  

Well, what I actually meant to say is that there would be no benefit from the dive flaps in that situation.

>I can be pretty sure though that the combat and normal flaps sure got one hell of a work out though.

As far as I know, "combat flaps" was just an intermediate setting for the "normal" flaps that gave an optimum compromise between lift and drag.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline bolillo_loco

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spit14 vs. p38?
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2003, 01:59:09 PM »
I do not know how much of an advantage the dive recovery flaps gave pilots in a turn, but there are several references in many books of pilots using the dive recovery flaps on the 38J/L to tighten up a turn.

the story about the 38L vs spit XV I have in a book called "top guns" isbn 0671683179