Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on December 29, 2008, 03:15:16 PM
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So far as I can remember, the epithets "cherry picker" and "pick" were not used in Warbirds years ago. The only thing comparable were common phrases like "bad SA," or "clearing a friendly."
Is it an AW term? Where did it come from? Has it always been part of the AH lexicon?
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It is also interesting that this term is used mostly in a negative meaning, whereas a true "cherry picker" is someone who has eye for, and bothers to pick and select only the best and most delicious cherries. I suppose it has degenerated to mean also picking just the easiest cherries.
A common noob here calls anyone, who shoots him down while he "is engaged" with another enemy, a cherry picker :lol ... and thus actually calls himself an easy target :rofl
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... and thus actually calls himself an easy target :rofl
Been tellin' the dweebs for years.......if you are dumb enough to fly like a cherry....someone will make pie out of you. :devil
Cherry=virginal=newbie
Hence picking cherries if killing folks that fly like newbies. :)
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So far as I can remember, the epithets "cherry picker" and "pick" were not used in Warbirds years ago. The only thing comparable were common phrases like "bad SA," or "clearing a friendly."
Is it an AW term? Where did it come from? Has it always been part of the AH lexicon?
Which begs the question... What is a "lexicon"?
readysetgo
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Which begs the question... What is a "lexicon"?
readysetgo
Here you go.......the vocabulary of a particular language, field, social class, person, etc.
...and you thought is was just another car company!!! :devil
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Here you go.......the vocabulary of a particular language, field, social class, person, etc.
...and you thought is was just another car company!!! :devil
I just thought it was the negative part of a car company, I was getting busy listing the Lexipro's....
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We didn't have such a thing in Warbirds back in the day. If you died in a multi-bandit environment it was because you lacked the situational awareness necessary.
But I suspect it isn't game specific but more a product of the generational differences between the online gamer then versus now. Maybe on how you came into online flight sims.
Most of the old crowd came to it from a background of interest in aviation and air combat and to many newer players its just another game.
I'd preach about self reliance and personal responsibility versus entitlement and victim culture but that would be a little too much for a game :)
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I'd preach about self reliance and personal responsibility versus entitlement and victim culture but that would be a little too much for a game :)
Well said Sir. :aok
It may be too much for some folks to admit, but not too much for the game and/or players to aspire to. I rely on squaddies, but in the end it comes down to my plane and whether I am aware of what is going on around me.
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Everybody who tools around above/at the edges of a fight looking for an already engaged pilot raise there hand.
Ohh wait. ;)
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I must have missed all those noble self deprecating WBs types while perusing the Channel 200
Whaaa Whaaa fest. Could it be that only AW types are sore losers? What a concept!
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My rule of a cherry picker is people who always fly's tiffy's, tempest, 190's, p51's etc. (planes that don't turn well slow) and always fly's them into a crowd and kill people alrdy engaged with 2 or more. As soon as they lose any adv, they run to the nearest help, whether it be ack, flak, or another plane. They only fight if they have help, etc...
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(http://www.danadesigngroup.net/images/Cherry-Picker640.jpg)
right?
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We didn't have such a thing in Warbirds back in the day. If you died in a multi-bandit environment it was because you lacked the situational awareness necessary.
But I suspect it isn't game specific but more a product of the generational differences between the online gamer then versus now. Maybe on how you came into online flight sims.
Most of the old crowd came to it from a background of interest in aviation and air combat and to many newer players its just another game.
I'd preach about self reliance and personal responsibility versus entitlement and victim culture but that would be a little too much for a game :)
I'll put my interest in WW2 aviation up against anyone's but I don't think it has anything to do with it, or being an old timer. I started flying AW in 96 and it didn't take long to learn which guys spent there time hanging above the fight only coming down when they could find a target that was already engaged. They had all kinds of excuses for not fighting then too :)
I don't recall the first time I heard the term 'picker' but those type of players have been around a long time.
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Pickers that shoot me down, don't bother me at all. I found it always best to just blame myself for every time I find myself sitting in the tower.
But it's the friendly pickers that really bother me, not that I do much about it. :)
Pisses me off to have done all the work, possibly even reversing a guy to have some yahoo come zipping in to pick him off just before I can get my guns on him.
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<-- Cherry Picking Alt Monkey. And proud of it. :aok
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I'll put my interest in WW2 aviation up against anyone's but I don't think it has anything to do with it, or being an old timer. I started flying AW in 96 and it didn't take long to learn which guys spent there time hanging above the fight only coming down when they could find a target that was already engaged. They had all kinds of excuses for not fighting then too :)
I don't recall the first time I heard the term 'picker' but those type of players have been around a long time.
Agreed, on all points (AW FR 10/95 - 12/01). Never could figure out the thrill of the pick.
- oldman
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Far as I can remember it first started showing up about 4 or 5 years ago. Well after the big AW influx.
So my money is on it being more of an AH thing. WB it would have been "bounced", poor SA, etc.
Depending on which side of the cherry your on, its either downright nasty or simply smart flying.
Never thought about cherry's not liking to be picked, bet they have some choice things to say about us huh.
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I might get angry when I get picked, but in hindsight I can always chalk it up to either poor SA or hanging myself out to dry by overcommitting. The best pickers are just guys with superior SA and the discipline to wait for the opportune time to engage.
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Never thought about cherry's not liking to be picked, bet they have some choice things to say about us huh.
(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3041/cherrypicker640gj0.jpg)
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(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3041/cherrypicker640gj0.jpg)
:rofl
Winna
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Back in the day, in Air Warriors I was accused of being a cherry picker. I told the guy all my kills are cherry picks. Never heard another word about it. :lol :lol
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Ok, one more time to bring in the New Year. The anti-pick sentiment is a pure contrivance of gaming. Purists of WWII combat aviation (most of us that hearken from the pre-2000 era of this genre) know that 90% of all Air to Air victories were scored by unseen enemy...IE: A Catastrophic failure of SA on the part of the victim. Virtually all tactical air combat dogma is predicated upon mutual support and the manipulation of position and energy to exploit an advantage. The mythology of the 1 vs. 1 hermetically chaste engagement is pure, unadulterated, gaming fiction. The only time it happened in WWII is if there was a massive bloodbath whereby wingmen had died and a single plane of an element accidentally became isolated or there was a massive and mutual failure of navigation whereby two opposing aircraft found themselves alone together, or if some gung-ho hotshot pilot disobeyed orders and went out alone in which case he would probably be court marshalled if by some miracle he was lucky enough to find a lone aircraft to engage and survived the engagement.
Combat aircraft after WWI were not designed to fight individually, in isolation from one another. Cooperative wingman, element, flight and squadron tactics evolved as a result of and were the inspiration for new aircraft design throughout all phases of the war. Post-WWI Air combat was never and will never be about the mythical single vs. single duel to the death. After the chivalric days of WWI and the very similar performing and armed aircraft which embodied the golden age of the tight turn radius the symphony of faster paced complex engagements prevailed. WWII and the technological maturation of aircraft design brought a much wider variety and disparity of plane characteristics, weapon packages, ballistics and design philosophies into play. The only thing they really had in common was the need for mutually supportive tactics for mutual security in complex engagements. The wide variety and disparity of aircraft characteristics meant the logical development of tactics specifically for the purpose of the systematic exploitation of the deficiencies of the enemy's aircraft while maximizing the advantages of one's own to maximum efficiency and effectiveness.
The AH MA is an even more extreme caricature of the real life match-up scenarios that occurred in WWII as all major country's dramatically dis-similar aircraft are represented and potentially involved in every complex engagement. This makes the tactical consideration of strength vs. weakness even more important. Most people I see complain about pickers are people that fly slow turny birds and choose to latch onto a single foe in single-minded 100% aggressive fixation. While I admire the aggressive spirit, that uncompromising, un-yielding mindset is ill-suited to multi-plane engagements, real or gamed. Air combat at its core is a delicate balance between offense and defense. Too defensive minded and you fail to kill, too offensive and you fail to live. I have just as little remorse for the one who is too conservative to kill as I do for the one that is too reckless to live.
Cherry picking as we describe it today is actually underrepresented as a form of dispatching foes in the game relative to real life. The reason being, we don't actually die in AH so people tend to do things no sane pilot in WWII would even consider. Also, your average 15+ year air combat game vet has thousands upon thousands of combat flight hours of experience, as opposed to the 100 or less your average WWII combat aviator may have had.
Personally, I have just as much respect for the AH pilot that can fly with surgical tactical precision as I do for the one that can fling his bird around like a rabid racoon on crack. To put oneself in a position to perfectly exploit an enemy's weaknesses while not revealing any of yours to be exploited in the same fashion is a thing of beauty, akin in essence to the flawless playing of a musical instrument.
Contrary to popular opinion, no successful tactical pilot ONLY cherry picks, it's impossible. One of two things will happen either of which denote a lack of success. 1) You'll fail to kill quickly enough to be worth consideration or 2) You'll over-commit in an effort to kill more time effectively and get killed in the process forced to mauneuver with an intrinsically more manueverable aircraft. The timing required against generally more maneuverable enemy, the minimal legitimate opportunities presented in an average engagement and the constant influx of new enemy that present an immediate threat make cherry-picking alone nonviable as a one-dimensional approach to air combat in AH. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
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I volunteer to buy your next round, Zazen :aok
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Ok, one more time to bring in the New Year. The anti-pick sentiment is a pure contrivance of gaming. Purists of WWII combat aviation (most of us that hearken from the pre-2000 era of this genre) know that 90% of all Air to Air victories were scored by unseen enemy...IE: A Catastrophic failure of SA on the part of the victim. Virtually all tactical air combat dogma is predicated upon mutual support and the manipulation of position and energy to exploit an advantage.
Zaz`you've`been saying that since AW, and you were one of the guys doing it then too. If that's how you want to play it, more power to you.
No one dies, there is no risk, so taking a chance in a fight isn't a lack of SA. There are enough of us who 'furball' who can fly it the other way and live forever. Frankly it bores me outside of Scenarios because it serves no purpose.
But PLEASE don't spout WW2 history as a justification for flying one way or another in a flight sim. This isn't WW2 and we don't die. The second we only get one life and never get to play again, I'll buy it. Until then, I can't.
All you do is give justification to those guys who spot you 5K below, come racing in at light speed, shoot, and race to the next sector before turning around.
And frankly you need guys like me down there mixing it up, so you can fly the way you do.
If we didn't, this would be the absolute most boring game in town.
Lets be honest. My type of play can survive without yours. Yours cannot survive without mine :)
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I volunteer to buy your next round, Zazen :aok
I read the whole thing! Nice post Zazen. :aok
Far as I can remember it first started showing up about 4 or 5 years ago. Well after the big AW influx.
Ok, there's my answer! Cherry-Picker originates in AH itself. I wonder who has the honor of starting the causal chain of "picker!" cries that dominate 200 today? :lol
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All you do is give justification to those guys who spot you 5K below, come racing in at light speed, shoot, and race to the next sector before turning around.
I can name on one hand the number people people in AH at the moment that have the timing and gunnery to literally do what you described consistently enough to approach any level of overall effectiveness at it.
And frankly you need guys like me down there mixing it up, so you can fly the way you do.
If we didn't, this would be the absolute most boring game in town.
Lets be honest. My type of play can survive without yours. Yours cannot survive without mine :)
If you read my conclusion paragraph I clearly state no one can just cherry pick and be ultimately successful in AH. It's just not possible. The type of aircraft you must fly and the manner in which you would have to do it would be so time intensive as to render any modicum of success you may have meaningless. The would be cherry-picker is either ineffectual overall or must, at least a few times a sortie, mix it up with aircraft that outmaneuver it significantly. That is extremely fun and challenging. A tiny misjudgement of E states and the would be picker is a fish in a barrel for 3/4 or more of the planes in the set. The angles fighter is not so constrained by the minutia of circumstance. An angles fighter can use that maneuverability to negate an E advantage or pull lead for a shot vs. any pilot of equal or lesser skill in a less manoeuvrable plane.
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Again, more power to em if that's how they choose to fly.
My bigger issue is trying to justify it based on WW2 aviation history. We get to choose the plane we fly, the mission we fly, the way we fly. We get to choose all the options.
The guys who did this for real, did not get that choice. To use them as a justification for a playing style in a flight sim, is just silly. Would you be arguing the same if HTC decided when you signed up that you were going to be a Val, Stuka or P40B pilot for the duration of your time in game? :)
If you find your fun that way, I sure won't condemn you for it. It's your dime.
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Again, more power to em if that's how they choose to fly.
My bigger issue is trying to justify it based on WW2 aviation history. We get to choose the plane we fly, the mission we fly, the way we fly. We get to choose all the options.
The guys who did this for real, did not get that choice. To use them as a justification for a playing style in a flight sim, is just silly. Would you be arguing the same if HTC decided when you signed up that you were going to be a Val, Stuka or P40B pilot for the duration of your time in game? :)
If you find your fun that way, I sure won't condemn you for it. It's your dime.
I'm not using history to justify anything. I am using history to illustrate the entire evolution of aircraft and tactics of which "cherry picking" is a fundamental and integral part. AH equips us with a reasonable facsimile of the aircraft and conventional air combat dogma equips us with the tactics. History just shows us how those came to be and why.
Cherry picking isn't a choice of playstyle at all. It can literally be construed as the mode of killing 90% of the time in complex engagements. Anytime you clear a friendly, take out a dragged or roped bandit you are cherry picking. In fact, any kill that isn't an isolated 1 vs 1 kill must, by definition, be a cherry pick. So, to denounce cherry picking is clearly ridiculous. I want as many "cherry pickers" flying in my area as possible, they're the ones saving my bellybutton and each other's. Anyone who doesn't cherry pick is useless in a complex engagement.
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I'm not using history to justify anything. I am using history to illustrate the entire evolution of aircraft and tactics of which "cherry picking" is a fundamental and integral part. AH equips us with a reasonable facsimile of the aircraft and conventional air combat dogma equips us with the tactics. History just shows us how those came to be and why.
Cherry picking isn't a choice of playstyle at all. It can literally be construed as the mode of killing 90% of the time in complex engagements. Anytime you clear a friendly, take out a dragged or roped bandit you are cherry picking. In fact, any kill that isn't an isolated 1 vs 1 kill must, by definition, be a cherry pick. So, to denounce cherry picking is clearly ridiculous. I want as many "cherry pickers" flying in my area as possible, they're the ones saving my bellybutton and each other's. Anyone who doesn't cherry pick is useless in a complex engagement.
I didn't denounce anything but using history as a justification. And Zaz, we're all useless in the overall scheme of things cause the game is just that. Think of all the time we've wasted over the years!
Again, you need me down there low drawing fire for you to fly your game. I don't need you up there for me to fly mine :)
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I must have missed all those noble self deprecating WBs types while perusing the Channel 200
Whaaa Whaaa fest. Could it be that only AW types are sore losers? What a concept!
I just find it highly amusing that the original poster asks a question that describes his own timid flying style.
ack-ack
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I didn't denounce anything but using history as a justification. And Zaz, we're all useless in the overall scheme of things cause the game is just that. Think of all the time we've wasted over the years!
Again, you need me down there low drawing fire for you to fly your game. I don't need you up there for me to fly mine :)
I have no problems getting down and dirty if the situation is appropriate, but I'm always open to picking the living crap out of someone if they have their pants down around their ankles...No qualms about it whatsoever. In fact, I would feel re-miss if I did not take the opportunity to "educate" those demonstrating such poor SA. Only in this way can we gradually increase over time the imbued wisdom and skill quotient of the average player... ;)
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Ok, there's my answer! Cherry-Picker originates in AH itself. I wonder who has the honor of starting the causal chain of "picker!" cries that dominate 200 today? :lol
It was a term that was used in AW and didn't originate in AH.
ack-ack
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I have no problems getting down and dirty if the situation is appropriate, but I'm always open to picking the living crap out of someone if they have their pants down around their ankles...No qualms about it whatsoever. In fact, I would feel re-miss if I did not take the opportunity to "educate" those demonstrating such poor SA. Only in this way can we gradually increase over time the imbued wisdom and skill quotient of the average player... ;)
Why is it that I doubt you are doing this for the betterment of your fellow player?
The essence of picking is that you're sneaking up on someone and shooting him before he can fight back. If your goal in the game is to amass kills or points, fine, one kill is the same as another. But the notion that this demonstrates a pure form of air combat skill just doesn't fly (as it were). The only skill is in the sneak-and-escape, not in the fighting itself.
There's no law against picking, of course, and there are probably people who envision themselves as heroic WWII aces as they dive in for the pick. But the thread started out as a "how come this is a bad thing?" question, and the answer, near as I can tell, is that people make fun of pickers because the pick doesn't show anything but an ability to surprise someone who is actually engaged in a fight with someone else. :)
- oldman
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(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3041/cherrypicker640gj0.jpg)
No! you beat me! :lol :rofl
Nice one
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picking isnt bad the only reason you can kill people is cause of no checks and horrible SA witch has alredy been stated. Also it is very simple to kill a picker just reverse 'em. :D
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But the thread started out as a "how come this is a bad thing?"
Not quite.
So far as I can remember, the epithets "cherry picker" and "pick" were not used in Warbirds years ago. The only thing comparable were common phrases like "bad SA," or "clearing a friendly."
Is it an AW term? Where did it come from? Has it always been part of the AH lexicon?
The question was about the origin of the term "cherry picker." It was a "when" question, not a "why" question. I'm very clear on why some consider it bad. :devil
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When I first started AW FR (Mims) there were two guys that really stand out in my memory, HR he could turn with the best of them and Zazen who would club you like a baby seal the minute you took your eyes off him.
I highly respected both because both took a great amount of skill in their style in my opinion. If HR got me I looked to improve my turn abililty if Zazen got me it meant my SA needed improvement. The attitude here is very similar to one going on about how to use ( or whose rules to follow) in the AVA. Either style makes me a better.
I take full responsibility for when I die in my plane. This is a multi plane enviornment get used to it and fly the way you want period.
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'Casey Jones' sounds better what 'cherry picker'.
http://sabre-pilots.org/classics/v32casey.htm
http://www.acepilots.com/korea/winton.html
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I don't pick cherries, I clear sixes.
I leave all that fancy dogfightin' stuff to the guys who know how to do it good n' proper :aok
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Strange how pickers don't want to be called it. You don't see furballers starting threads why they are being called such? It's what they are. It is what they do.
PICK
the act of choosing or selecting; choice; selection: to take one's pick.
If you fly around looking for ac already tied up in a fight you are a "picker", by definition.
I return you now to "As the pickers spin.".
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Strange how pickers don't want to be called it. You don't see furballers starting threads why they are being called such? It's what they are. It is what they do.
PICK
the act of choosing or selecting; choice; selection: to take one's pick.
If you fly around looking for ac already tied up in a fight you are a "picker", by definition.
I return you now to "As the pickers spin.".
And Bronk lifted up his mighty voice and spoke through the clouds, Do as I sayeth or I will label you a picker unto mankind
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What is the line between what is a pick and what is not? (since we are answering questions)
If the target goes evasive (in any form whatsoever) is it still a pick (since he is aware of your presence) ?
If the target is getting "check 6's" from countrymen or squadmates, but ignoring them, is it still a pick?
I would think that the very moment that a target realizes that he has been chosen (as a target) whether by warning from a countryman, a squadmate, your tracers, or the little hairs on the back of his neck standing up, it can no longer by the very definition of the term, be a pick.
I would wager that 90% of the guys that complain about being picked, know they are being shadowed and don't care, or think they can get away with staying engaged.
I have seen, on multiple occasions, where there is some guy getting ganged by 3-4 friendlies, while at the same time, another red guy is coming to help his buddy. You can warn the pack of wolves 100 times and it won't matter.
e.g. "Hey, all 5 of you on that Zeke, you have a Pony coming down" meanwhile, all 5 guys on the Zeke have their faces plastered to the windshield and ignore the warnings thinking they will be the one to score the lethal hit.
But... here comes Mr. Pony, and in one pass, wastes 2 of the bandits on his Zeke buddy. Oh the whines you will hear about how they "were picked"
So.. who is the worse offender in that situation? The guy picking, or the ones getting picked because of their ignorance?
I guess what I'm saying is that it is all relative.
I do not fly anything besides German Iron (or very rarely, a Macchi) in the MA, you will not see me in too many turn fights. Sure I could up a 109 F or G, but the fact is, in the MA I will probably get picked, depending on the situation.
Again, relativity........
If you are in a 1v1, maybe it's different, but in a furball type situation, you should be looking over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds, plain and simple.
There are other enemy planes around and they could possibly shoot at you, just like the coffee at McDonalds is HOT and could BURN you.
I always fly in the MA with the possibility of my being picked in the back of my head.
People should always realize that it is a possibility and be prepared for it. If it means disengaging from your kill and not bagging it....
BOO HOO. Look around once in a while and don't be so greedy. If you enter an engagement expecting to be picked (if you find it happening to you a lot, you should start expecting it), it might not happen as often.
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Strange how pickers don't want to be called it.
I wear the title with pride! :D
Cherry picking is also a description of selection-bias, i.e. ignoring evidence that doesn't support a proposition while presenting the evidence that does.
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Okay okay, something I just thought of.
Situation:
You get in a fight with one of my friends. More and more it looks like you're getting the better of him, and soon his fighter will be a burning hulk heading for terra firma.
The new dicta is that I let you kill him, acheive maneuvering speed and only then I can attack?
Sorry, Gracie. Say goodnight.
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I wear the title with pride! :D
Cherry picking is also a description of selection-bias, i.e. ignoring evidence that doesn't support a proposition while presenting the evidence that does.
Good man.. and you should...if that is what you enjoy doing.
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Strange how pickers don't want to be called it.
Everybody picks. Furballers are pickers. In a furball of say, 20 V 20, you are lying to your self and everyone else if you think there isn't a bunch of picking going on. In this same 20 V 20 furball, there isn't 20 1 V 1's going on. There isn't a guy in the MA who ups fighters who doesn't pick, not a single one.
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Okay okay, something I just thought of.
Situation:
You get in a fight with one of my friends. More and more it looks like you're getting the better of him, and soon his fighter will be a burning hulk heading for terra firma.
The new dicta is that I let you kill him, acheive maneuvering speed and only then I can attack?
Sorry, Gracie. Say goodnight.
From Oldman above, "The essence of picking is that you're sneaking up on someone and shooting him before he can fight back. If your goal in the game is to amass kills or points, fine, one kill is the same as another."
Thats the hypocritical paradox here, Yes you should let the furballer get his kill so that he can amass kills or points.
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Everybody picks. Furballers are pickers. In a furball of say, 20 V 20, you are lying to your self and everyone else if you think there isn't a bunch of picking going on. In this same 20 V 20 furball, there isn't 20 1 V 1's going on. There isn't a guy in the MA who ups fighters who doesn't pick, not a single one.
Aye but the furballers are not flying around the edges at warp speed. They are in it.
Do I pick, have I picked, will I pick again? It would be a lie to say no. Do I rely on it as my mainstay....hardly.
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Okay okay, something I just thought of.
Situation:
You get in a fight with one of my friends. More and more it looks like you're getting the better of him, and soon his fighter will be a burning hulk heading for terra firma.
The new dicta is that I let you kill him, acheive maneuvering speed and only then I can attack?
Sorry, Gracie. Say goodnight.
Where did I say you shouldn't...if it is red it is dead. Still don't see how it wasn't a pick. The negative connotation you impose yourself. It is what it is.... a pick.
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Aye but the furballers are not flying around the edges at warp speed. They are in it.
Do I pick, have I picked, will I pick again? It would be a lie to say no. Do I rely on it as my mainstay....hardly.
I realize I was speaking in absolutes but I am getting to a point. What we really have here is a discussion on a pretty subjective topic. We are talking about players who "rely on it as a mainstay". Well, this is pretty hard to determine. One can submit anecdotal evidence to suggest someone is a "full time" picker. Do any of us fly around a particular player enough to declare with authority that someone is in deed a full time picker? I'd say in some cases, "yes". In most cases, I think not.
I've been called picker tons of times for shooting a guy who wasn't engaged... just wasn't looking. I've also been called picker for having alt over a pack of bad guys and roping/vert fighting them to death.
Of this I am certain: many many people in the MA don't know the correct definition of "pick".
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Where did I say you shouldn't...if it is red it is dead. Still don't see how it wasn't a pick. The negative connotation you impose yourself. It is what it is.... a pick.
Wasn't aimed at you specifically, more of a "you" as in "y'all".
Back to the point at hand- me clearing a friend's six is a good thing. It's a GREAT thing if the guy has some major perkies he's looking to land.
But for "you", not so much, as my Pony is screaming in at 500 mph, you're totally unaware and suddenly your right wing files for divorce.
Because you didn't know, I'm suddenly a sneaky lowlife bastard performing the equivalent of a dark alley mugging.
I'm just trying to get the idea here. It seems absolutely retarded to me.
You're on my friend, I kill you, you scream at me because I'm a sneaky no skill bastard all of a sudden.
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Of this I am certain: many many people in the MA don't know the correct definition of "pick".
There in lies the problem. :aok
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Wasn't aimed at you specifically, more of a "you" as in "y'all".
Back to the point at hand- me clearing a friend's six is a good thing. It's a GREAT thing if the guy has some major perkies he's looking to land.
But for "you", not so much, as my Pony is screaming in at 500 mph, you're totally unaware and suddenly your right wing files for divorce.
Because you didn't know, I'm suddenly a sneaky lowlife bastard performing the equivalent of a dark alley mugging.
I'm just trying to get the idea here. It seems absolutely retarded to me.
You're on my friend, I kill you, you scream at me because I'm a sneaky no skill bastard all of a sudden.
If that is the connotation you get from it... so be it. I myself would probably be chuckling to myself all the way back to base.
Just a new outlook on the game I have.
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If that is the connotation you get from it... so be it. I myself would probably be chuckling to myself all the way back to base.
Just a new outlook on the game I have.
Chuckling away indeed :lol
Seems like that's the consensus, though. Picking is a big bad no no! :t
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Get em' Rebel
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Chuckling away indeed :lol
Seems like that's the consensus, though. Picking is a big bad no no! :t
That is the spirit. :aok
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Okay okay, something I just thought of.
Situation:
You get in a fight with one of my friends. More and more it looks like you're getting the better of him, and soon his fighter will be a burning hulk heading for terra firma.
The new dicta is that I let you kill him, acheive maneuvering speed and only then I can attack?
Sorry, Gracie. Say goodnight.
I've told guys to stay out even if the guy I'm turning with is getting getting the edge on me. I've been asked bhy people to stay out when they are in the same situation.
The joy of the cartoon air combat world, is that I can learn from every fight and every mistake as my life is not really on the line. If I need someone to 'save' me every time, then I don't have as many opportunities to push the envelope of my cartoon flying skills, or lack therof.
Would this happen in a Scenario where a virtual life means something? Nope. But in the MA where it means nothing, you bet it will happen. In the end it's all a matter of perspective.
If you get your kicks out of flying as a picker, and get your fun from that then go for it. As I don't really die, it just doesn't matter.
Will I be impressed by it? Probably not. But then again, what I think really doesn't matter anyway :)
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The guys who I get a laugh out of are the ones who are famous for hovering or coming in near the end of a hoard (we all know who they are), who scream bloody murder on 200 when they get picked :lol
shamus
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The guys who I get a laugh out of are the ones who are famous for hovering or coming in near the end of a hoard (we all know who they are), who scream bloody murder on 200 when they get picked :lol
shamus
Best picks of em all. :devil
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So when do we eliminate lets see the 51, most of the 190s and any other plane that cant turn with the furballers, or should we try and dogfight them against packs of 38's spits and La's?
I got it lets setup an arena for them. But no that wouldn't be historical, besides then they would pick with other planes, lets just fly them low then people can say look at that idiot in the 51 on the deck yummy lets go jump him. Then they can still feel wiser and smarter though.
No, lets just wait for another like plane to come along and hope some furballer in a spit16 doesn't come along.
Use them to their strengths, no then I'm a picker they'll brand me geez what do I do.
I got it, play by their rules, no that wont work then I have to check in with them before I fly and see which hypocritical mood their in.
Wow this is getting complicated sorta takes the fun out of it.
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So when do we eliminate lets see the 51, most of the 190s and any other plane that cant turn with the furballers, or should we try and dogfight them against packs of 38's spits and La's?
You don't have to pick to be effective in any of these planes (well...maybe the A8....). I suspect you know this!
- oldman
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So when do we eliminate lets see the 51, most of the 190s and any other plane that cant turn with the furballers, or should we try and dogfight them against packs of 38's spits and La's?
I got it lets setup an arena for them. But no that wouldn't be historical, besides then they would pick with other planes, lets just fly them low then people can say look at that idiot in the 51 on the deck yummy lets go jump him. Then they can still feel wiser and smarter though.
No, lets just wait for another like plane to come along and hope some furballer in a spit16 doesn't come along.
Use them to their strengths, no then I'm a picker they'll brand me geez what do I do.
I got it, play by their rules, no that wont work then I have to check in with them before I fly and see which hypocritical mood their in.
Wow this is getting complicated sorta takes the fun out of it.
If it's a label if you don't like it don't do it. I on the other hand will attempt to shoot down whatever red AC crosses my nose. Best of luck to you. :aok
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So when do we eliminate lets see the 51, most of the 190s and any other plane that cant turn with the furballers, or should we try and dogfight them against packs of 38's spits and La's?
As opposed to the spits, la's, and ki's that go into "seizure" mode when you get on their tail. As for 190s the f-8 is a decent turner as is the d-9 if you keep it above 250.
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Everybody picks. Furballers are pickers. In a furball of say, 20 V 20, you are lying to your self and everyone else if you think there isn't a bunch of picking going on. In this same 20 V 20 furball, there isn't 20 1 V 1's going on. There isn't a guy in the MA who ups fighters who doesn't pick, not a single one.
Precisely. Picking is a fundamental part of every air combat involving more than 2 combatants. It's actually what makes it interesting. You always have to be mindful when attacking another plane that there is potentially someone else about to do the same to you. I find engagements where that is not a possibility exceedingly boring and uninteresting.
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As for 190s the f-8 is a decent turner
You must be kidding...
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Precisely. Picking is a fundamental part of air combat involving more than 2 combatants. It's actually what makes it interesting. You always have to be mindful when attacking another plane that there is potentially someone else about to do the same to you. I find engagements where that is not a possibility exceedingly boring and uninteresting.
I'd say zipping around at warp speed in a temp or a tiff waiting for an sa overloaded target is.........exceedingly boring and uninteresting.
But that's just me. ;)
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I'd say zipping around at warp speed in a temp or a tiff waiting for an sa overloaded target is.........exceedingly boring and uninteresting.
But that's just me. ;)
Bronk why cant you just let people fly what and how they choose to fly without the not so subtle innuendo that somehow its wrong.
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You must be kidding...
I'm glad I refrained from responding, but I'm glad you did.
It's much more plausible coming from you.
:aok :aok
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I'd say zipping around at warp speed in a temp or a tiff waiting for an sa overloaded target is.........exceedingly boring and uninteresting.
But that's just me. ;)
You've obviously never tried it...;) Someone who just zips around at light speed waiting for those totally overwhelmed will not be effective. To even consider exclusively doing anything even vaguely close to what you describe, in a way that might garner a reasonable rate of kills/time, requires extremely sharp aim and timing. To make passes at only heavily engaged bandits is a recipe for a pelt pouch full of assists and a lot of blown E/Alt with no results.
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Bronk why cant you just let people fly what and how they choose to fly without the not so subtle innuendo that somehow its wrong.
Am I stopping them somehow? When did you all give me such power? Question is why wasn't I informed of this?
Great... Spit XII and 150 octane fuel for all. :aok
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Am I stopping them somehow? When did you all give me such power? Question is why wasn't I informed of this?
Great... Spit XII and 150 octane fuel for all. :aok
Dont kid youself you have no power except over the feeble minded, but it is power you seek or your "interest" wouldnt be so intense.
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Am I stopping them somehow? When did you all give me such power? Question is why wasn't I informed of this?
Great... Spit XII and 150 octane fuel for all. :aok
We didn't give you the power, the helmet did :D
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Dont kid youself you have no power except over the feeble minded, but it is power you seek or your "interest" wouldnt be so intense.
Yup it's working. :lol
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You've obviously never tried it...;)
Really... I'm glad you have knowledge off all the things I do in AH.
Just so ya know Zaz ya don't need warp speed ac to pick...but it helps. :aok
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Really... I'm glad you have knowledge off all the things I do in AH.
Just so ya know Zaz ya don't need warp speed ac to pick...but it helps. :aok
Speed = Initiative, Initiative = Pro-active aggressiveness.
Therefore, the slower your aircraft the more likely you will be in reactionary mode, defensive and unable to maintain an aggressive posture for any protracted period sufficient to consummate the kill...If you try you are probably rendering yourself vulnerable to being cherry picked. This is why aircraft have developed to be faster over time not tighter turning.
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Really... I'm glad you have knowledge off all the things I do in AH.
Just so ya know Zaz ya don't need warp speed ac to pick...but it helps. :aok
I need it.
Have you ever tried picking in a 109-E?
:rofl
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I need it.
Have you ever tried picking in a 109-E?
:rofl
You seen (or is that saw) me last night in that FM2 didn't ya. 2 of those kills were outright picks.
ZOMG I'm a picker arrrrgggghhhhhh!.
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Speed = Initiative, Initiative = Pro-active aggressiveness.
Therefore, the slower your aircraft the more likely you will be in reactionary mode, defensive and unable to maintain an aggressive posture for any protracted period sufficient to consummate the kill...If you try you are probably rendering yourself vulnerable to being cherry picked. This is why aircraft have developed to be faster over time not tighter turning.
Zaz all ya need is speed and timing.... see my above post.
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I'd say any time someone is engaged and you clear you buddies 6 it is a pick. Here is where the problem comes in.... In a furball fight many times folks are clearing eachother which is not frowned upon. The problem comes about when someone just sits up high and is not involved in the furball but simply drops in trying to score a kill. The latter is a cherry picker IMHO. Kind of like someone getting a medal when they were hiding behind a rock when the rest of the unit was in harms way.
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The latter is a cherry picker IMHO. Kind of like someone getting a medal when they were hiding behind a rock when the rest of the unit was in harms way.
Pretty dramatic isnt it were talking about a cartoon plane game here. hehe
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It is also interesting that this term is used mostly in a negative meaning, whereas a true "cherry picker" is someone who has eye for, and bothers to pick and select only the best and most delicious cherries. I suppose it has degenerated to mean also picking just the easiest cherries.
A common noob here calls anyone, who shoots him down while he "is engaged" with another enemy, a cherry picker :lol ... and thus actually calls himself an easy target :rofl
lol!!
Then count me as one who bothers to pick and select only the best and most delicious cherries.
:rofl :aok
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Pretty dramatic isnt it were talking about a cartoon plane game here. hehe
Catoon plane yup..... but you have to explain it so that even the weakest link can comprehend what you are trying to say.
I used to post in "cavemen". lol
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Speed = Initiative, Initiative = Pro-active aggressiveness.
Therefore, the slower your aircraft the more likely you will be in reactionary mode, defensive and unable to maintain an aggressive posture for any protracted period sufficient to consummate the kill...If you try you are probably rendering yourself vulnerable to being cherry picked. This is why aircraft have developed to be faster over time not tighter turning.
Say again on the development bit? Seems like they figured out with the F4 that being able to turn was more valuable then flat out speed. Adding slats to the F4E and S cut down speed but improved the turning ability. The F14, 15, 16 and the reintroduction of guns were all a response to figuring out speed was not the only answer. I would imagine that the F22, Eurofighter, and any of the latest Russian birds place emphasis on the ability to maneuver as well.
They got away from ACM for a while and it cost the USAF and USN big time in Vietnam until they got back into it.
Too many in the AH crowd don't have a clue about ACM, which considering we don't really die, is just sad for an air combat game.
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Can anyone say "Thrust Vectoring" ?
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Can anyone say "Thrust Vectoring" ?
Unicorn.....has to be.
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Unicorn.....has to be.
Kidneys Give me back my kidneys.
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Too many in the AH crowd don't have a clue about ACM, which considering we don't really die, is just sad for an air combat game.
I'd say too many in the game equate the quality of ACM to be in direct proportion to the G load on the airframe.
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I'd say too many in the game equate the quality of ACM to be in direct proportion to the G load on the airframe.
Question..what was your old wb handle?
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You seen (or is that saw) me last night in that FM2 didn't ya. 2 of those kills were outright picks.
ZOMG I'm a picker arrrrgggghhhhhh!.
Looked OK to me.
I go back to my original question, though.
Is it still a pick once the pickee is aware that he has been chosen for the basket?
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I'd say any time someone is engaged and you clear you buddies 6 it is a pick. Here is where the problem comes in.... In a furball fight many times folks are clearing eachother which is not frowned upon. The problem comes about when someone just sits up high and is not involved in the furball but simply drops in trying to score a kill. The latter is a cherry picker IMHO. Kind of like someone getting a medal when they were hiding behind a rock when the rest of the unit was in harms way.
When confronted by a veritable sea of Spit16's, Nikis, Hurris and La7's keeping them at arm's length is precisely what you should do. Most complex engagements in AH are predominantly of that typical composition. To get deeply involved with them is to play "their game". The way to defeat them is to exploit energy and position to negate their numerical and maneuverability advantage. The art of doing that is not something everyone can do with a high degree of proficiency, if everyone could do it proficiently there wouldn't be a sea of Spit16's, Niki's, Hurris and La7s. There'd be a sea of Fw190s, Jugs, Typhoons and Ponies and we'd be playing an entirely different game.
People who are proficient at Cherrypicking are extremely valuable in a complex engagement, they have a force multiplication effect because not only are they destroying enemy fighters, they are saving other friendly fighters from destruction and less likely to be destroyed themselves in the process. So, a cherrypicker is at least twice as impactful in terms of the net effect on the ebb and flow of an air battle as the typical 1 vs. 1 duelist is.
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Say again on the development bit? Seems like they figured out with the F4 that being able to turn was more valuable then flat out speed. Adding slats to the F4E and S cut down speed but improved the turning ability. The F14, 15, 16 and the reintroduction of guns were all a response to figuring out speed was not the only answer. I would imagine that the F22, Eurofighter, and any of the latest Russian birds place emphasis on the ability to maneuver as well.
They got away from ACM for a while and it cost the USAF and USN big time in Vietnam until they got back into it.
Too many in the AH crowd don't have a clue about ACM, which considering we don't really die, is just sad for an air combat game.
Maneuverability didn't cease to be a consideration at all, especially when aircraft design already afforded a wide speed differential in a particular theater of operation. However, maneuverability became a distant secondary if not tertiary consideration well after speed and the weapon system itself.
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Ok, there's my answer! Cherry-Picker originates in AH itself.
Nope, your first theory was correct. The term was in AW in the 90's.
There is nothing "wrong" with picking per se. It is a perfectly valid and realistic tactic. It's the social aspect of it that causes the rub. It doesn't really take much skill to shoot down someone who is already occupied with other bogie(s). There's a little bit involved (predicting the opportunity, timing and approach), but not much :) If everyone involved is aware that it was just an easy kill by an otherwise skilled pilot, there's nothing to disagree about. The stigma kicks in when the shooter has a self inflated sense of skill (eg. thinks that kill is equal to killing that same pilot 1v1), or when the depth of the shooters ability is limited to finding easy kills due to their lack of skills.
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Nope, your first theory was correct. The term was in AW in the 90's.
There is nothing "wrong" with picking per se. It is a perfectly valid and realistic tactic. It's the social aspect of it that causes the rub. It doesn't really take much skill to shoot down someone who is already occupied with other bogie(s). There's a little bit involved (predicting the opportunity, timing and approach), but not much :) If everyone involved is aware that it was just an easy kill by an otherwise skilled pilot, there's nothing to disagree about. The stigma kicks in when the shooter has a self inflated sense of skill, or when the depth of the shooters ability is limited to finding easy kills due to their lack of skills.
When approaching a furball and engaging I think of opportunities to cherrypick as "culling the herd". By destroying aircraft you reset them to the runway and a low energy state thereby improving the relative E advantage overall compared to your adversaries for all friendly fighters in your vicinity. A few people endowed with the ability and desire to do the "culling" proficiently have a HUGE effect on the ebb and flow of the air battle over time.
I don't think anyone would argue that most Cherrypicks wouldn't be eligible for a "Plays of the Week" video clip on Sportscenter. But, that's not the motivation for doing it. The motivation is to replane more maneuverable planes as quickly and efficiently as possible in order to give your teammates the upper hand in a protracted, pitched air battle.
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LOL Zaz, what you just said, is you only fight from an advantage, and imply that you are doing the rest of us a favor by doing so.
That's just silly :)
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LOL Zaz, what you just said, is you only fight from an advantage, and imply that you are doing the rest of us a favor by doing so.
That's just silly :)
I'm always at a maneuverability disadvantage. Not many aircraft commonly flown in the LW MA maneuver more poorly in general than the Typhoon. Truly, for example, if there's 10 of my team vs. 20 of the other team and they're getting close to vulch light green on my field, me cherrypicking the living crap out of the 20 enemy is doing my 10 brave lads a favor...
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When confronted by a veritable sea of Spit16's, Nikis, Hurris and La7's keeping them at arm's length is precisely what you should do. Most complex engagements in AH are predominantly of that typical composition. To get deeply involved with them is to play "their game". The way to defeat them is to exploit energy and position to negate their numerical and maneuverability advantage. The art of doing that is not something everyone can do with a high degree of proficiency, if everyone could do it proficiently there wouldn't be a sea of Spit16's, Niki's, Hurris and La7s. There'd be a sea of Fw190s, Jugs, Typhoons and Ponies and we'd be playing an entirely different game.
People who are proficient at Cherrypicking are extremely valuable in a complex engagement, they have a force multiplication effect because not only are they destroying enemy fighters, they are saving other friendly fighters from destruction and less likely to be destroyed themselves in the process. So, a cherrypicker is at least twice as impactful in terms of the net effect on the ebb and flow of an air battle as the typical 1 vs. 1 duelist is.
Well normally the 80th is in the middle with our 38s. You'll never learn what any plane can do it you don't press it over the edge and back. I think we do pretty good. It is certainly not boring.
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LOL Zaz, what you just said, is you only fight from an advantage, and imply that you are doing the rest of us a favor by doing so.
That's just silly :)
Is it therefore a "sin" to fight only from an advantage?
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Well normally the 80th is in the middle with our 38s. You'll never learn what any plane can do it you don't press it over the edge and back. I think we do pretty good. It is certainly not boring.
No doubt, you guys have squeezed every last ounce of goodness out of the P38. But, you have a squadron comprised of some of the absolutely best 38 pilots in the game with a cumulative total over a 100+ years of online flight sim experience. An average player is not often afforded the luxury of wingmen of that high caliber, with a vested interest in his survival fighting in his area with him most of the time. So, what you guys are able to do is in no way, shape or form representative of what the average schmo's expectations would be in similar circumstances.
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Is it therefore a "sin" to fight only from an advantage?
No.... but it must be rated as one of the most boring things on earth to do. That and when you do find yourself at a disadvantage your problems are multiplied.
Good Lord..... 100 years plus?? In our small Squad...... lol you may be right never thought about that. Where's that new carpal tunnel gear from CH.
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Is it therefore a "sin" to fight only from an advantage?
What would AH gameplay be like if everyone only chose to fight from an advantage? (I hope the point came across loud and clear)
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No doubt, you guys have squeezed every last ounce of goodness out of the P38. ...So, what you guys are able to do is in no way, shape or form representative of what the average schmo's expectations would be in similar circumstances.
That was his point. One does not learn to "squeeze every last ounce" out of their ride by purely hovering on a perch waiting to spot the next hapless victim.
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No.... but it must be rated as one of the most boring things on earth to do. That and when you do find yourself at a disadvantage your problems are multiplied.
Everyone finds themselves at a disadvantage all the time. To think otherwise is stupid. I am one of the most tactically obsessed players ever to play this genre and I find myself fighting from the disadvantage at LEAST several times a flight. The only distinction is I do not go out of my way to place myself at a disadvantage. I simply end up there due to mitigating variables beyond my control as I go about killing.
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I am one of the most tactically obsessed players ever to play this genre
...And he's humble too :)
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That was his point. One does not learn to "squeeze every last ounce" out of their ride by purely hovering on a perch waiting to spot the next hapless victim.
No one can do that. You have to get involved to get kills. Getting involved means making yourself vulnerable to some degree. People who ONLY sit on a perch and look for picks end up flying home kill-less 95% of the time or kill so infrequently as to render themselves tactically insignificant...
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...And he's humble too :)
I never said I was good at it, just obsessed with it... Hehe ;)
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No one can do that. You have to get involved to get kills. Getting involved means making yourself vulnerable to some degree. People who ONLY sit on a perch and look for picks end up flying home kill-less 95% of the time or kill so infrequently as to render themselves tactically insignificant...
I'm tempted to reply, but I bet 95% of readers are on the same page as I, so is it really worth it? The point being that those who spend too much time avoiding trouble will have little experience with knowing what to do when trouble finds them.
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What would AH gameplay be like if everyone only chose to fight from an advantage? (I hope the point came across loud and clear)
Point definitely taken.
My point is that we send the noobs to see you guys (the trainers) or refer them to resources such as Kylander's write-up or Dicta Boelcke which the first rule (something I'm sure we all know) is
1.Try to secure the upper hand before attacking. If possible, keep the sun behind you:
But then we call them pickers.
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I'm always at a maneuverability disadvantage. Not many aircraft commonly flown in the LW MA maneuver more poorly in general than the Typhoon. Truly, for example, if there's 10 of my team vs. 20 of the other team and they're getting close to vulch light green on my field, me cherrypicking the living crap out of the 20 enemy is doing my 10 brave lads a favor...
Just for kicks I checked your score. Last big tour was 106 I believe. 530 + kills and 32 deaths. All kills in the air were Tiffie, about 200 some were ship gunner or flak.
Zaz you aren't pushing the edge much that way. Again if it's what you enjoy, go for it, but I'm hard pressed to see how you ever put yourself at a disadvantage with those numbers.
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The point being that those who spend too much time avoiding trouble will have little experience with knowing what to do when trouble finds them.
+1!! I say it all the time, people don't like to listen. That's signature material
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I'm tempted to reply, but I bet 95% of readers are on the same page as I, so is it really worth it? The point being that those who spend too much time avoiding trouble will have little experience with knowing what to do when trouble finds them.
Can't argue with that. I see people trying to do that. Just the other night someone was doing that in a Pony. I watched him the entire time, from the point he entered the fight area all the way to when he returned to base and landed. No kills. He made a dozen or so half-arsed passes at people, but never even pinged anyone that I could tell. He was a complete non-factor in the engagement, the most he did was force one guy to break off someone for a few seconds. I think it's people like that who give cherrypicking a bad name, because like a blind squirrel they do find a nut now and then, it would suck to be that 1 kill an hour "nut" they found.
But, trust me as one who has refined cherrypicking to an artform and proud of it, you have to get involved to cherrypick effectively, when you get involved you have an excellent chance of finding yourself at a disadvantage. I am proud to be a "true" cherrypicker, I even made Xargos make me a special Muppets avatar that said, "das Muppets Cherrypicker". Done correctly cherrypicking is a thing of beauty. It's the people that don't do it correctly that burn the candle at both ends, both failing to kill and failing to learn because they are so reluctant to get involved they never actually fight. But, those folks evolve eventually, they either adapt and learn, or get frustrated and do something else.
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Is it therefore a "sin" to fight only from an advantage?
As i've already said a couple times. A 'picker' needs folks like me down on the deck, fighting it out, for their game to exist. Without us, there is nothing to pick. Those of us mixing it up down low, can exist without the pickers just fine. They add nothing to the fight other then an interruption.
Again, if that's how you get your kicks, it's your dime and your time, but until we start really dying, only flying with the advantage is the easy way out. And that I'll never understand as I believe the benefit of an online flight sim where you can put yourself up against other people, should involve actually engaging those folks in the virtual air.
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The term "Fight" must have a truely wider meaning.
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Just for kicks I checked your score. Last big tour was 106 I believe. 530 + kills and 32 deaths. All kills in the air were Tiffie, about 200 some were ship gunner or flak.
Zaz you aren't pushing the edge much that way. Again if it's what you enjoy, go for it, but I'm hard pressed to see how you ever put yourself at a disadvantage with those numbers.
I know you've flown around me enough to know the myth of how I fly is not the reality. I am low and slow a lot, I just pick the correct time and place to do it, it just isn't anytime and anyplace. Don't assume just because I have a high k/d that I don't fight. I'm an 18 year vet that took to this like a duck to water right from the beginning, who has mastered a single plane to a fine edge and loathes to give up my pelt.
Take a look at my sheet this camp after 4 months off to be with my ailing newborn son, my K/D is the worst it's ever been as my gunnery, timing and SA are badly rusted. I am flying no differently than I ever have, I am just rusty and have lost the edge. So, my stats this tour are a reasonable comparison to someone without my decades of experience and intense familiarity with my bird of choice.
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As i've already said a couple times. A 'picker' needs folks like me down on the deck, fighting it out, for their game to exist. Without us, there is nothing to pick.
I may speak as a typical "picker": Most people I pick are not "furballers" like you - the majority of my kills are the pure landgrab guys. Bombers, Jugs, Tiffies, F4Us, NOE missions ib to flatten my base. There is a great number of guys waiting to get picked that are not looking for a low and slow exciting turnfight at all ;)
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As i've already said a couple times. A 'picker' needs folks like me down on the deck, fighting it out, for their game to exist.
Honestly, most of my victims are other pickers. Any good cherrypicker takes the top-down approach. You kill the fastest and highest E state bandits first because they are the ones that can run you down as you egress. Only after they are all dead would I resort to cherrying low n' slow turny birds. They are much harder targets and make me more vulnerable to new enemy entrants to the fight area that would then have an E advantage over me.
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Honestly, most of my victims are other pickers. Any good cherrypicker takes the top-down approach. You kill the fastest and highest E state bandits first because they are the ones that can run you down as you egress. Only after they are all dead would I resort to cherrying low n' slow turny birds. They are much harder targets and make me more vulnerable to new enemy entrants to the fight area that would then have an E advantage over me.
Yep. I had an inkling to post something like that. Eventually I expect to be OTD in the furball, but in regards to threat assessment upon finding a furball, the existing pickers are my first targets.
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Amen zazen :rock
"Picker" allways starts from top/highest energy target and go lower and if enought targets t&b before out of ammo/fuel and rtb.
Other pickers are the best kills you can get :D
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Honestly, most of my victims are other pickers. Any good cherrypicker takes the top-down approach. You kill the fastest and highest E state bandits first because they are the ones that can run you down as you egress. Only after they are all dead would I resort to cherrying low n' slow turny birds. They are much harder targets and make me more vulnerable to new enemy entrants to the fight area that would then have an E advantage over me.
There's a very good point to be made here regarding controlling airspace, and you CAN'T do that if you're going in at 5k to jump in the pile on the deck, because guaranteed you're bound to have a bunch of red coming in high.
Case in point: on Saturday myself, a couple squaddies and some others were working over a base attempting to make a capture. Eventually we gained air-superiority over the target area with most of the remaining enemy down low. After egressing out of the fight to come back with ordinance for town I watched on DAR as a large group of enemy aircraft upped one base further back, and I can guarantee you they weren't thinking of coming back in join the furball on the deck. All our planes were down low dealing with the last of the cons and no one was at altitude to intercept the new wave. Guess what happened next?
I'm going to come in at altitude. Period. When I have control of the situation I don't come in lower than 15k because I'm not going to get caught flat-footed against high Ponies and Tempests. I'm going to meet them on equal ground where I can force them in close. But if I see a red plane I kill it. It doesn't matter a damn to me if I'm jumping a solo low con from a perch, picking an enemy off a friendly's six, or if I have to get in close and work him over for the shot. I'm up there to kill.
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Take your average picker.
12k zooming around in a tiff. You've got your bag full and are now rtb. Dot appears... another speed demon ac. Co alt, co e.
Do you hope
A. it's another picker
or
B. One of the upper echelon furballes out for picker blood. Let's say oooh ... Drex
Your honesty is appreciated.:aok
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I'm going to come in at altitude. Period. When I have control of the situation I don't come in lower than 15k
:lol
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And of course you cut out the key point of the post. :rolleyes:
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Is it therefore a "sin" to fight only from an advantage?
Yes.
However, there is also the ass-hat notion that only speed and altitude constitute advantages, and maneuverability or numbers do not. With prop planes, an initial advantage in speed and/or altitude is what gives the much less maneuverable fighter something resembling an *even* break, unless the the higher-wingloaded plane has a truly outstanding advantage in weight-to-power ratio.
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Yes.
However, there is also the ass-hat notion that only speed and altitude constitute advantages, and maneuverability or numbers do not. With prop planes, an initial advantage in speed and/or altitude is what gives the much less maneuverable fighter something resembling an *even* break, unless the the higher-wingloaded plane has a truly outstanding advantage in weight-to-power ratio.
Exactly, some 1 vs. 1 whine monkey's flying around in <insert favorite turny bird here> come across a <insert favorite E fighter here> Co-E/Co-Alt and call that an "even" fight. Not hardly...The E fighter must have an Alt/E advantage to convert into angles to match or overcome a more maneuverable plane with all other factors being equal. That is the essence of air combat between dissimilar aircraft. It's pretty easy to cruise around in <insert favorite turny bird here> and bemoan those that use E/Alt to kick your ass, but when's the last time you've heard a <insert favorite E fighter here> pilot cry because a <insert favorite turny bird here> pilot used his superior maneuverability to kick his ass? Answer: NEVER...
In all honesty, if I'm cruising around in A Hurricane or F6F I too pray to Jesus in heaven every E fig jock with an overinflated sense of himself will get tight with me. But, I sure as hell don't blame him when he doesn't, stays out of arms reach and tries to cherrypick me a new ass. It's what he should do, if he didn't do that I would assume he was a moron or new, which is almost always the case...If he isn't a moron or new and let me gain angles and kill his less maneuverable friend without trying to cherrypick me he should be shat upon, viscerated and fed to hungry lions.
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I'm not stupid, I freely admit that sometimes that in some fights where it is a 'fishbowl' with more than 10 planes swirling around in a small confined space where 1v1s simply aren't going to happen. To put yourself beneath the swirling mob in a P38, a ride that attracts the most attention (after slow perk rides and C47s), is akin to typing /.ef <enter>.
I'm finding furballs that large more boring everyday, it is more of a test of SA than anything else. Instead, I look for the fringes of the fights where smaller engagements take place or I attempt to drag a few out of the massive furballs to promote a better fight.
If you want to be a little timid in a scenario enviornment, I can understand, but to do that on a daily basis in the MA is boring.
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I'm finding furballs that large more boring everyday, it is more of a test of SA than anything else. Instead, I look for the fringes of the fights where smaller engagements take place or I attempt to drag a few out of the massive furballs to promote a better fight.
smart man. :aok
If you want to be a little timid in a scenario enviornment, I can understand, but to do that on a daily basis in the MA is boring.
One critical thing, which I often find myself forgetting, is we're all unique in personality, setups and inherent talents/skillsets. Some rely on talent, some on technical flying, some on numbers, some on a prayer and a wing, some on the hope the baddy doesn't see them.
I don't care how someone flys as long as I perceive an honest effort is being given - we are here to kill each other after all.
The logical goal is to become a complete, or well rounded, player. We all progress at our own rate as well as having our own expectations and motivations. Some personalities just prefer their comfort zone <shrug>
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Hmmm. Beneath the mob in my 38G is my comfort zone apparently :)
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One critical thing, which I often find myself forgetting, is we're all unique in personality, setups and inherent talents/skillsets. Some rely on talent, some on technical flying, some on numbers, some on a prayer and a wing, some on the hope the baddy doesn't see them.
I don't care how someone flys as long as I perceive an honest effort is being given - we are here to kill each other after all.
The logical goal is to become a complete, or well rounded, player. We all progress at our own rate as well as having our own expectations and motivations. Some personalities just prefer their comfort zone <shrug>
Excellent point Shane. I guess that's why I fly "tactically". I have tried everything I can think of to become a decent stick and have obviously failed miserably. I simply just have no aptitude for it at all. The only reason I even maintain the will to pay n' play is a stubborn love for the subject matter of WWII combat aviation. In a just world I should have quit years ago and saved myself the frustration and torture of perpetuating proven failure. I feel genuine remorse for inflicting my brand of pathetic mediocrity upon the community. But, I remain reluctant to just quit and end the pain for some reason, perhaps masochism, I don't know.
After 18 years, slower reflexes and worse eyesight I don't see myself suddenly becoming a pilot capable of cackling and scoffing at tactical prudence to intentionally fly beneath 20 dweebfires and Lgay7s and have any success like you uber-leet guys do so effortlessly. So, to compensate for my complete and utter lack of skill or talent I cop-out and resort to flying "smart" out of desperation. Then I can choose to only put myself in situations and planes where my craptacular flying abilities won't be such a glaring liability. I suspect most tend to gravitate over time toward behavior that masks their deficiencies in similar fashion...The only thing I am not totally inept at is gunnery. So, I construct situations and fly planes that accentuates that single facet of fighterdom that I suck at the least.
I am quite sure, like myself, everyone wishes they were magically endowed or bestowed, via experience, time and effort, with the ability to lay waste to huge swaths of numerically superior, higher E state enemy like you guys do. But, sadly, I am not one of those people...Instead I have to resort to the subterfuge of cherrypicking to fulfil my virtual bloodlust. But, in the larger scheme of things, AH probably needs pathetic, bottom feeding, scum sucking trash like myself to balance things out. Only then can you truly gifted God blessed souls stand out by contrast for the rest of us mere plebes to admire and adore.
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you're right zaz.. as a penance you should let <insert favorite score potato> vulch you 137 times. :aok
otoh, I'd have thought that FurBlake in the DA would be prime for both your preferred style and recruiting/nurturing like-minded pie-lets. Who's gonna carry your banner when you're old and feeble...r... ? Think of the children! :D
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you're right zaz.. as a penance you should let <insert favorite score potato> vulch you 137 times. :aok
otoh, I'd have thought that FurBlake in the DA would be prime for both your preferred style and recruiting/nurturing like-minded pie-lets. Who's gonna carry your banner when you're old and feeble...r... ? Think of the children! :D
I'm a afraid to click on the DA arena for fear my man-hood will shrivel up and die, much like a vampire exposed to the recriminating, punitive rays of the sun. Someone of my ilk has no place in such a pristine temple reserved for the worship of those divinely endowed with innate fighter talent.
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The thing that has always irked me about pickers isnt so much the way they choose to fly. Its simply that to die to one you are usually distracted and engaged, or just dont see them coming. Either way, it just doesnt seem like an earned kill. Unless the guy is on the ball and performs excellent timing attacks, most attacks can be avoided. But, that would be more of a bnz guy that has a technique that works, just like the tnb guys have theirs.
The turny type flying isnt so much the type of plane (hurri ect) that the guy is using, but more a style regardless the plane he is in. Ive seen many A6m5 use BnZ exclusively.
Picking is a whole different animal. More of us are guilty of it then we admit. When approaching a furball with alt, its almost always a pic that I start with, until in the mix and being picked myself. To rely on picking as the sole way to get kills, is where the negativity from most players come in.
But regardless the never-ending debate on what way is right, for me the real problem is too many people sharing too little space on huge maps.
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only thing that annoys me about the "cherry picker" are the guys that have played long enough to know better and rely on it as their sole purpose of getting kills. The ones that will run to ack, then soon as you start fighting other people, grab up to their safe zone and come piling back in and still miss and auger.
The hit n run mugs usually ponies/190's etc. I cant tell others how to fly but the only way to learn new moves and skills is to put your backside on the line and come up with something different.
Now I love to pick/bounce/vulch with the best of them. If The situation presents itself I will maximise whatever advantage I have be it plane/alt/speed. Getting double figure sorties is a piece of cake when you know how.
Personally I would prefer to land 3 kills knowing i've made 3 other people look stupid by outflying them anyday. If someone manages to impress me with their flying and manages to kill me, I come up again and have another go, rinse repeat, until i've acquired a new angle to look at. Some of the strife that goes on here is because people are far too lazy to adopt this approach and learn the hard way. Too many people after an easy ride IMO. I guess thats where the hording lamers come in. NO skill, NO effort = easiest path to "percieved win".
A perfect example of a person I've noticed is Tongs, He got on the wrong side of one of my squaddies because he kept pulling for HO shots awhile back(squaddie in question was probably trying to HO anyway :P), when he tried the same thing with me they turned out to be lessons learnt. Everytime I come across him in game now, gone are the HO attempts, good fights ensue and although he still gets put down often he has become a much better cartoon pilot for it. A challenge that I now have to work to get a kill on. I'm sure he kills his fair share of average players now too.
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I doubt if I can add much to this thread. In fighters most of my kills or picks and most of my deaths are from being picked. Every now and then you get into a good 1 vs 1. Those are rare. Win or lose you always come away learning something from those. A couple of camps ago I got into a co-alt fight with another F4U4. Now I came out on top on that but the guy was being hit by my cv ack plus fighting me. In reality it was not a totally fair fight. Also in reality there are no fair fights. Different planes do different things better. Is a duel between a 6 gun p47 vs an 8 gun p47 equal? Not hardly. Then you have fuel loads, rocket rails etc. The other day I got into a turn fight with my F4U1a vs a spit 16. Even that wasn't fair since he was distracted by other cons in the area. Heck he may have not even known we were turn fighting. :rofl :rofl
When I first started playing Air Warriors I purchased the CD and a book came with it. In it was a quote from Anvil, who was the first conference champ. He said, "No there is no honorable way to get a kill. You just kill them and move on".
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Hmmm. Beneath the mob in my 38G is my comfort zone apparently :)
Speaking of picking, remind me not to try and have fun in an SBD around YOU! :)
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When I first started playing Air Warriors I purchased the CD and a book came with it. In it was a quote from Anvil, who was the first conference champ. He said, "No there is no honorable way to get a kill. You just kill them and move on".
OMG! BURN HIM! BURN HIM! He's a witch!
You can't pull quotes like that on here! The God gifted blessed souls of Fighter Uber-dom will be the judge and jury that will order your public execution for an utterance of that nature!
Any thinking person knows the only valid kills are stall-speed, on the deck circle-jerking with a single bandit in hermetic isolation. All other kills are hitherto declared in-valid, un-holy and generally indicative of low-class, blasphemous, hedonism. I hereby declare the on-set of the Puritan Revolution of Aces High Fighter-hood!
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Zazen -
You have some sort of persecution complex? Nobody is saying you are Satan or anything. The simple fact of the matter is that someone who cherrypicks exclusively will never get the same sort of 'respect' that someone who can kill equally well from an initial disadvantage will.
Granted, neither will get much respect in AH nowadays, when those who can drop the most buildings with the fewest bombs are objects of adoration to the masses.
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Zazen -
You have some sort of persecution complex? Nobody is saying you are Satan or anything. The simple fact of the matter is that someone who cherrypicks exclusively will never get the same sort of 'respect' that someone who can kill equally well from an initial disadvantage will.
Granted, neither will get much respect in AH nowadays, when those who can drop the most buildings with the fewest bombs are objects of adoration to the masses. While remaining under radar.
Fixed
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Zazen -
You have some sort of persecution complex? Nobody is saying you are Satan or anything. The simple fact of the matter is that someone who cherrypicks exclusively will never get the same sort of 'respect' that someone who can kill equally well from an initial disadvantage will.
Granted, neither will get much respect in AH nowadays, when those who can drop the most buildings with the fewest bombs are objects of adoration to the masses.
Hmmm ya, I was going more for an obscene caricature of some of the sentiments expressed here, in a backhanded way, to demonstrate how rediculously absurd they are... ;)
As I said before, show me someone who "ONLY" cherrypicks and I will show you someone with 1 kill an hour or less. Believe me, I've tried to kill 8+/Hr only cherrypicking, it just isn't possible. Keep in mind however, that I do not ever vulch, so someone who cherrypicks "AND" vulches religiously may be able to approach a more respectable kill rate than I. Pacerr is one example of that category that immediately comes to mind, but there's many, probably half of the Top 100 Fighter Pilots each tour on average. Every now and then each hop I find myself oblidged to actually fight, it pains me to do so to the core of my being, but if I didn't I'd have to resign myself to 1 kill an hour via cherrypicking alone, which would not be terribly entertaining.
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OMG! BURN HIM! BURN HIM! He's a witch!
You can't pull quotes like that on here! The God gifted blessed souls of Fighter Uber-dom will be the judge and jury that will order your public execution for an utterance of that nature!
Any thinking person knows the only valid kills are stall-speed, on the deck circle-jerking with a single bandit in hermetic isolation. All other kills are hitherto declared in-valid, un-holy and generally indicative of low-class, blasphemous, hedonism. I hereby declare the on-set of the Puritan Revolution of Aces High Fighter-hood!
:rofl :rofl :rofl I knew you would like that. But it's the absolute truth. If you fought like everyone wants you to fight then you would be under 4k, in a ju87, and afk.
One of the observations I made in AW was wow, you guys are trying to make rules that don't exist in the game. Well the same is going on here. It seems we strive for complexity.
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Cheery Picking is such a laborious term, when that happens to me, I just say I've been 'Shrecked' :D
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in the MA cherry picking is most fun if it is also stealing a squadmate kill whilst saving some random as the squadmate gets shot by the guy chasing you.
not that i would do such a thing of course but thats what i heard.
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Cheery Picking is such a laborious term, when that happens to me, I just say I've been 'Shrecked' :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Hey Don't Shreck me. New verb?
Or don't zazen those 5 inchers.
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Cheery Picking is such a laborious term, when that happens to me, I just say I've been 'Shrecked' :D
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd237/Kool_Cherry_101/Cherrys/NegativeColorCherrys.gif)
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The God gifted blessed souls of Fighter Uber-dom
The irony here is pretty remarkable.
- oldman
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OMG! BURN HIM! BURN HIM! He's a witch!
You can't pull quotes like that on here! The God gifted blessed souls of Fighter Uber-dom will be the judge and jury that will order your public execution for an utterance of that nature!
Any thinking person knows the only valid kills are stall-speed, on the deck circle-jerking with a single bandit in hermetic isolation. All other kills are hitherto declared in-valid, un-holy and generally indicative of low-class, blasphemous, hedonism. I hereby declare the on-set of the Puritan Revolution of Aces High Fighter-hood!
^thats the funniest post I've seen in weeks on this BBS.
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in the MA cherry picking is most fun if it is also stealing a squadmate kill whilst saving some random as the squadmate gets shot by the guy chasing you.
not that i would do such a thing of course but thats what i heard.
Pffffffft!!! With extra spittle.
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*whipes face* damn Aus....no wait... i've pushed my luck there already to breaking point :D
*ducks and runs*