Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kazaa on August 07, 2009, 09:16:40 AM
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I’ve been playing AH2 on and off for almost 5 years now and I could count the times I flew an FW190 model on one hand, ok maybe two. But yesterday that all changed.
I was playing in Orange arena, the map was trinity, the base I was attacking being A1 (Death Valley) and my poor little tank was getting pwned by the armada of IL2s and B25s. I decided to give up the torture and strap into a fighter for some much needed payback. I find myself going into the hanger and browsing through the list for what I would coin as “long endurance fighter”, this means long range, a healthy supply of ammo and most importantly goes like the clappers because we all know A1 can get a little bit fruity. Instantly the P-51D comes to mind but for some reason as I’m scrolling down and I find myself stopping at the FW190D. Now being a Spitfire driver at heart I dislike the FW190D9 with a passion as it’s normally flown very timidly and out of position by other players, but I said what the hell and jumped into it anyway.
To cut a long story short I find myself over A1 with a good number of enemy fighters to dispatch before I could sink my teeth into the abundance of heavy A/C that plagued my GV sorties. Myself and a few other countrymen started with the highest threats and worked our way down. We were outnumbered but had just enough energy advantage to stay alive, it was a slaughter! I don’t think any other unperked ride could have done a better job, what a beast I thought to myself.
All around I found the FW190D9 to be nothing short of a spectacular in the offensive roll and wanted to start kicking myself for not giving it the time of day before.
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Did u take 5 years to discover the funniest rides ? :O
Try 190A8 light gun packs (2x20s or quad 20s), 205, P47D-11 (6x50cal) or the 109G2, I really enjoy these rides.
Ask your father Bruv about a fight we had he in U4 me in D9, was a no match for me but was fun.
Welcome to the dark side training plane's driver :D
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yep the 190 is a fantastic ride, my fav and main ride...even better when theres 2 or more of you in them..you can really cause some trouble. Try the TA152...that can be a bit of an animal too..
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:uhoh
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I've flown it quite a few times, (know your enemy etc) haven't done so recently but one such killing session sticks out
me and jason were paired up fighting several guys near their field and we used UBER luftwaffe tactics being as aggressive as possible keeping total control of the fight.
the biggest downfall for me is when your game is up and you've got yourself in the chitter, it just can't outfly the spits / LA's / P51's. I like to know that no matter how dicey a situation gets the plane can give me a fighting chance of survival. The 190D just cannot do that against an experienced flyer. In pairs or more it is great, as long as you love and trust your wingmen with your life. Well flown it should reach double figure kills every sortie.
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:uhoh
don't worry joey I will drag him back into the light.
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xD welcome to the 190D. Make sure if you're going deep inside bad guy land, use every drop on that DT. DT slows your speed down by 6mph but it's worth it to have it on. W/o DT you internal tank is about 20 min, with DT you add another 17 min (full military power). Only jets, LA7 (on deck, not above 10k), Tempest and F4U-4 can exceed the 190D9 on the deck.
This bird is a great ride, fast aceleration, climb like a beast (usually on take off, I just hit wep until 8-10k and level off). WEP last 10 minutes and it's recharge itself while in flight (so use it often). The fire power is much better then most American fighters. THe 2 20mm just make things explode. I usually shoot at 200 yards so it takes a bout 1/2 a sec burst to take down a fighter. You'll find your average sortie last about 40 min, 5-10 rounds to take down an enemy fighter. Usually you'll go bingo fuel way before bingo ammo. I've never broke the wing from a D9 yet, I've took her to 550 while pulling Gs, doesn't compress til beyond 550.
Her weak points are: the radiator is very vulnerable. It seems the entire air craft is a radiator. Some damn reason the radiator always get hit (this is prior to the new version, not sure of it now.). 2 internal fuel tank, so becareful flying around them AAAs. Once a fuel tank is hit, it's time to go home. You just don't have the fuel capabilities to maintain air borne that long. Try take the D9 to furball lake in DA for a good few hours to get used to the low speed handle capabilities. It's not great but that roll can save your butt quite often. I've last a good 5 min in a D9 OTD vs. multiple spitfires before, but never able to shoot em down. This bird can roll rly well even at 120 knts. Torque is to the left, so roll left at low speed!
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I've flown it quite a few times, (know your enemy etc) haven't done so recently but one such killing session sticks out
me and jason were paired up fighting several guys near their field and we used UBER luftwaffe tactics being as aggressive as possible keeping total control of the fight.
the biggest downfall for me is when your game is up and you've got yourself in the chitter, it just can't outfly the spits / LA's / P51's. I like to know that no matter how dicey a situation gets the plane can give me a fighting chance of survival. The 190D just cannot do that against an experienced flyer. In pairs or more it is great, as long as you love and trust your wingmen with your life. Well flown it should reach double figure kills every sortie.
Yea on that, I usually hit 10-12 kills by the time I reach 200-250 cannon rounds in D9, but also that's when I usually hit bingo w/ fuel and have to RTB. With a wingman this bird is nasty for rope and dope. I'd dive in pick a target or two off in 1 pass, as I climb out, 70% of the time a spitfire or something will attach itself 1-2k going straight up hangin at 100 knts. Usually that's when my wingman take em out (if I have one), if I don't I just do a quick reversal and come down for the kill.
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don't worry joey I will drag him back into the light.
:rofl :aok
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The greatest D9 film I've ever seen was Urchin's "Luxury of Speed." He's perched up above a field, heavily outnumbered, and seems rather apathetic to the danger. One after the other, he's shooting people down who were climbing too aggressively, and during it all, there's a set of bombers making repeated passes on his base. Almost nonchalantly, he turns head on into them three times, and each time one goes "poof."
Towards the end of the film, he is rtb on the deck and running from a F4U-4. He lets it close a bit, does a very smooth guns reversal, and blows it from the sky.
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The 190D-9 is a killer, no doubt about it, but you have to be a very good shot to succeed in it. It carries a lot of ammo, but the ballistics aren't as good as the M2 or HS Mk II, and if your target is paying attention you won't get a clean shot from inside 400 yards. Because of its poor stability at high AoA, you have to lead a breaking target far in advance, so many firing opportunities are below-the-nose: you have to use the force!
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The 190D-9 is a killer, no doubt about it, but you have to be a very good shot to succeed in it. It carries a lot of ammo, but the ballistics aren't as good as the M2 or HS Mk II, and if your target is paying attention you won't get a clean shot from inside 400 yards. Because of its poor stability at high AoA, you have to lead a breaking target far in advance, so many firing opportunities are below-the-nose: you have to use the force!
Yea, 95% of the time I only fire at 200-300 yards, while pulling lead. The system I used for pulling lead is as soon as my target disappear underneath my nose, I fire.
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Dora, a long endurance fighter? :confused:
The Dora has just enough internal fuel to fly from here |-----------> to here. I think even the La-7 has a longer endurance on internal.
Good story though :)
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Well it has more range than my Spitfire.
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That's kinda scary actually. How do you get to any fights?
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Only with the DT. Spit8 on internal has longer range than 190d on internal. 190D edges out the spit9/16 a bit, and especially so with the DT added.
I find it rather short-ish range. You can cruise, sure (as you can in all planes) but if it's got less than 30 minutes with full fuel, to me that's "short" (because when you use WEP that goes even faster!)
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Yea, I'm a big 190D9 fan, but there are so many limitation to the plane. However, I love the bird since AW1 w/ the 190A8. When AW3 Came out I switched to the D9. Can't help it but to fly it in AHII =)
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The D9 has enough endurance if you give up the speed for range by cruising to the fight.
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That's true of all aircraft.
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That's kinda scary actually. How do you get to any fights?
I get towed by a P-51D. :lol
were you being serious ?
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.
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That's true of all aircraft.
Uh huh. And all aircraft can afford to lose as much speed as the D9 to still cruise at speeds equal to "average" fighters' top speed.
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I get towed by a P-51D. :lol
were you being serious ?
Not really ;)
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Uh huh. And all aircraft can afford to lose as much speed as the D9 to still cruise at speeds equal to "average" fighters' top speed.
Yup, it has an impressive cruising speed. Not as good as the La-7, but close.
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Only reason to take a 190D is the speed and horsepower. Why fly it if you're going to be slow and vulnerable at max cruise?
Don't get me wrong, I'm just playing devil's advocate. If you're going to fly a 190 "slowly" just take either A-model. Only reason for the D is to stay fast (which means staying competitive against late war monsters).
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Only reason to take a 190D is the speed and horsepower. Why fly it if you're going to be slow and vulnerable at max cruise?
To save fuel towards flying it uncompromisingly at WEP in the fight. It's not hard at all to safely cruise to a fight in the MAs. I've flown the 152 on the lowest engine settings... It's enough to fly to the next base (ie 25-35mi or whatever the standard distance is between two adjacent airfields) on 25% and go home with ~10 kills. The way home is what's usually tricky.
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I actually enjoy it. Cruising to and from fights fills the otherwise boring time with some MSFS-ish engine/fuel/speed management.
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To save fuel towards flying it uncompromisingly at WEP in the fight. It's not hard at all to safely cruise to a fight in the MAs. I've flown the 152 on the lowest engine settings... It's enough to fly to the next base (ie 25-35mi or whatever the standard distance is between two adjacent airfields) on 25% and go home with ~10 kills. The way home is what's usually tricky.
QFT.
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Holla! kazaa in a D9, thats a date to remember :aok
About the range, as moot mentioned reducing RPM and boost to cruise settings is vital for a decent endurance. As i like any bit of speed i never take a DT, so i make good use of reduced RPM and boost.
But what i am most interested in is how the conversion felt to you. Whenever i try a spit i am amazed by the hispanos, but i have big problems with the flight characteristics and never really got used to it. Went so far, that even in low alt field defenses i rather take a D9 with 75% or less fuel than a spit16.
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All around I found the FW190D9 to be nothing short of a spectacular in the offensive roll and wanted to start kicking myself for not giving it the time of day before.
No doubt the Dora is a hugely capable AC if flown to its strengths.
I personally prefer the A5 because it performs better in a low/slow situation which is, for better or worse, where I typically find myself.
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Not to threadjack, but does the A5 turn appreciably better than the D9?
I seem to do adequate in the A5 (one of the few planes I feel confident flying in), but in the Dora I'm absolutely wretched, even with increased speed/roll rate.
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The A-5 turns tighter than the A-8, and the Dora is about halfway between the two. It's main benefit is the horsepower, so that you don't have to flat turn.
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Did u take 5 years to discover the funniest rides ? :O
Try 190A8 light gun packs (2x20s or quad 20s), 205, P47D-11 (6x50cal) or the 109G2, I really enjoy these rides.
Don't try the P-47D-11, P-47N is better, 8x 50cals, fastest at high alt with the exception of the jets and maby a few others, HEAVY armor, I flew through a couple of high callibur AA hits with only holes, supprisingly manuverable, and longer range than the D series. Or you could try the P-38, I love that bird. no converganse issues.
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I take it when flying the Dora, it's a case of diving down then grabbing again? Getting some speed back then diving down again?
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Short answer: Try it out and see!
Long answer: not really. The dora has a lot of power so you can bleed off your speed and regain it using WEP. It's quite capable... for the most part.
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I prefer the A8 with the 30mm gun package for raw lethality. It's a beast. It'll make you work because you can't really run in it.
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Not to threadjack, but does the A5 turn appreciably better than the D9?
I seem to do adequate in the A5 (one of the few planes I feel confident flying in), but in the Dora I'm absolutely wretched, even with increased speed/roll rate.
the A5 turns a little better than the dora but its still worse than most planes you will encounter, I dont really like the A5 over the dora, the main reason is I prefere the speed and acceleration of the dora, But its best not to try and turn fight in the 190s, if you use your roll rate to your advantage you can make yourself a very hard target to shoot down..
I find the dora works best in pairs or a group and in my eyes its the best fighter plane in the game <--- of course thats my opinon :D
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I prefer the A8 with the 30mm gun package for raw lethality. It's a beast. It'll make you work because you can't really run in it.
Or climb or turn.Not to threadjack, but does the A5 turn appreciably better than the D9?
I seem to do adequate in the A5 (one of the few planes I feel confident flying in), but in the Dora I'm absolutely wretched, even with increased speed/roll rate.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/
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The 190A8 climb rate isn't so dismal as you may think. It's simply "average"...
You can't compare it to spits and 109K4s that almost peg 5000fpm climb rates.
Compared to the japaneses planeset, the non-spit brit planeset, compared to almost all US planes, it is "average" in climb with WEP, but keep in mind it has 10 minutes of solid WEP to use. It won't totally out-climb something from a dead heat, but if it's chasing something, they also can't get away too easily, either.
It's a great offensive platform. You keep in the mindset of "how it can attack something else" and it's pretty good. You start thinking "how it can/cannot evade something attacking it" and folks seem to fixate on the large turn radius.
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It's a well-armed brick.
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It's a well-armed brick.
It's a well armed brick that can re-orient it's lift vector very quickly (as can all 190's) to create a guns solution and a lot of times in the MA's that's all you need. Any plane in front of the A-8's guns is toast.
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It's a well armed brick that can re-orient it's uncompetitive lift vector very quickly (as can most 190's) to (with some luck) create a guns solution and a lot of times in the MA's that's all you need.
Fixed (imo). And Any plane in front of the A-8's guns is toast.
that's very circumstancial.
I'd probably redirect someone who wants the A8's firepower to a 110G2. Probably not everytime, and I'm not quite saying that the 110G can totally sub for the A8, but it's a close call IMO. And for a Fw190, that says a lot about its performance.
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Fixed (imo). And that's very circumstancial.
I'd probably redirect someone who wants the A8's firepower to a 110G2. Probably not everytime, and I'm not quite saying that the 110G can totally sub for the A8, but it's a close call IMO. And for a Fw190, that says a lot about its performance.
I'm not going to argue with you about this. The A8 has consistently been my best plane in terms of K/D over years (actually I think the A5 beats it by a slight margin). I like it and I'm not going to stop flying it and enjoying it no matter how hard you try to convince me otherwise.
Frankly I like both the Antons better than the Dora.
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I'm not arguing your tastes BE.
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BTW moot, I tried your TA-152 out yesterday. It felt more like a P47D11 in turnabilities, with a more powerful engine. It's a lil bit sluggish at 400 knts or on dive, but at low and slow. I think it's the best tnbner for the 190 series. Good buff hunter too ! Quick vertical reversal w/ em. How's your aiming w/ the Tater on it? Just same as K4?
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Fixed (imo). And that's very circumstancial.
I'd probably redirect someone who wants the A8's firepower to a 110G2. Probably not everytime, and I'm not quite saying that the 110G can totally sub for the A8, but it's a close call IMO.
Not really. It Bf110 can't climb so good, and it can't turn so hot, and it can't outrun most planes.
I think most people over stress the importance of turn rate. Think about it this way: He out turns you but you have him in your sights for 6 secs. His turn rate dosen't matter if you put some 30mm shells into the cocpit.
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Not really. It Bf110 can't climb so good, and it can't turn so hot, and it can't outrun most planes.
Neither can the A8.
Actually the 110G does indeed turn much better than a A8, and climbs almost about the same.
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The 110? Really? I hadn't noticed that but maybe you are right. If so then I just found a new top 10 fighter. How long can it turn like that? If it can only keep it up for 10 secs before it runs outa E then I don't know why you bothered bringing it up. You still won't win a turn fight, and while I said people overstress turn rate, I didn't say it's un important.
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With some air moving over the wings the A8 is quite capable as long as the speed is up and let's face it, that's how most of the 190's are flown. In a diving attack the turn rate and climb rate, while not incredible, are acceptable and all that WEP helps a lot in both a turn and in the zoom. The same can't be said of the 110. You need to throttle the 110 back in a dive giving up valuable E. If you fly the A8 like a 190 it's just fine. If you fly it like a zeke you're dead but that holds true for all the 190's (although the A5 lets you get a little closer).
IMO in a higher speed diving attack the A8 will actually out-turn the Dora. This is why I don't like the Dora. It fights you. In fact I think the A8 might out-turn the Dora in a lufberry on the deck as well (I havn't looked at the official numbers). At least I've never been afraid to try to out-turn a Dora and I can't remember losing to one in such a fight.
With some E, using the A8's roll rate in combination with advanced ACM I've killed every type of plane in the MA's, even the turny ones, but the window is short for a gun solution so you need to be thinking ahead all the time. Like I said, give me a guns solution and I'll give you a downed pilot.
I've actually even won stall fights against Spits, F4U's, P-47's, 109K-4's, P-38's and the list goes on. Now I'll attribute most of that to luck and pilot skill (not mine... lack of skill on the part of the other pilots primarily) although one of those K4 kills was against a very accomplished AH stick who's still alive in the dueling bracket. It was still luck to a degree... he ran out of fuel after we had been going at it for 3-4 minutes.
Anyway, as I said, I like the plane and given the general competition level in the MA's it's quite capable.
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Yenny - It's the same gun but some people find the aiming totally different. I reckon the cockpit cues throw em off.
BE/Nemisis - The biggest problem with the 110 is its target area and the speed limit. Nonetheless its easier to aim, more flexible to aim with, and actually maneuvers. The advantage of maneuverability at high speed, given how mediocre the A8's climb is, is marginal IMO. Co-E, Co-alt, same experienced pilots, the A8 is tied or losing in just about any MA matchup.
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IMO in a higher speed diving attack the A8 will actually out-turn the Dora. This is why I don't like the Dora. It fights you. In fact I think the A8 might out-turn the Dora in a lufberry on the deck as well (I havn't looked at the official numbers).
The A8 with its higher drag and weight will lose E faster when you turn it at high speeds. So it closes to its corner speed faster than the D9, which carries its speed longer. This creates the immersion the A8 could outturn the Dora. In a D9 vs. other FWs fight, i find it most important to know, when the horsepower available to you is your friend or foe. If you try to turn with an A5 or A8 with the throttle firewalled its likely your better E retention will give them a chance to force an overshoot. If cut it in time, you can stay behind them and than use the extra HP to close in for the kill. And against a5 or A8 the D9 always has the option to hit WEP and use the extra HP to generate and advantage, most times in the vertical.
At least I've never been afraid to try to out-turn a Dora and I can't remember losing to one in such a fight.
I can state the same if going D9 vs. A5 or A8. :)
With some E, using the A8's roll rate in combination with advanced ACM I've killed every type of plane in the MA's, even the turny ones, but the window is short for a gun solution so you need to be thinking ahead all the time. Like I said, give me a guns solution and I'll give you a downed pilot.
Fully agreed BE. The A8 greatest strenght over the D9 are the extra cannons IMO, cause they almost guarantee that even a short guns solution will result in a kill. Often in the D9 my prey gets hurt but not cripled, cause those 1-2 extra 20mm rounds are missing.
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I don't think the A-8 ever was better than the D-9 in a flat turn.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/fwrot.jpg)
Turn radius:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2085/2307680173_fe1c3b0bd1_o.gif)
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OK, so most people think the A8 is somewhat suckish in turnrate, and climb rate, and can't dogfight for beans. Is that correct? I still say it's better than the Bf110, but that may be personal preferance.
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I still say it's better than the Bf110, but that may be personal preferance.
Performance is important, but so is being comfortable in a plane. Only when you are, you will truly be able to make it dance.
F4U's, for example, are great fighting machines, but for some reason I'm less then stellar in them - because I don't feel comfortable in them
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Same here. I am decent in the IC, and OK in the rest, but that is it. I am much more comfortable in my P-51, P-47, and my C. 205.
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Moot, I assume that's yards and not feet?
It can't be right. Shows identical turn radius for 30mm armed and normal armed A-8s. The 30mm option is over 500 lbs of extra weight compared to the 2-gun option. [Edit: that's over 200lbs more than the 4x20mm option]
The F-8 is modeled identically to an A-8 (which is wrong) but has 500lbs extra weight onboard (over 1000lbs more than A-5). Same wing, same power, it should have a significanly worse turn radius.
(not to mention the A-8 as-modeled in AH is already 500lbs overweight, but one can hope that will be fixed)
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It's from Kweassa's 2.06 turn tables. The A8 is worse than the D9 in Gonzo's charts (with MOSQ data) too. And that looks like it's with light guns, going by the lethality comparison: the 152 is slightly stronger than the A8.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
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OK, so most people think the A8 is somewhat suckish in turnrate, and climb rate, and can't dogfight for beans. Is that correct? I still say it's better than the Bf110, but that may be personal preferance.
The A8 is a bit of a hog, but it's my favorite 190 to take up heavy-gunned (I preffer the 4x20mm package) for buff-busting if I have the time to get the altitude in it. But I still would probabley preffer a 110 for buff busting given the same situation, simply because if I'm already looking at the A8 I'm looking for something with guns and the 110 I feel is a bit more durable for tackling buffs.
My overall favorite of the 190s though is the Dora, and I would love to see more variants of it added into the game (much like how we have an A5 and A8). Recently in the LWA during the late-night scene you'll see me mostly in my Dora or a few times a week in my pony.
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It's from Kweassa's 2.06 turn tables. The A8 is worse than the D9 in Gonzo's charts (with MOSQ data) too. And that looks like it's with light guns, going by the lethality comparison: the 152 is slightly stronger than the A8.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
Moot,I think lethality is basic gun package,and not a comparison of the A8's full firepower!
Without an ammo count and of the top of my head,lets see 2x30 plus 2x20 plus 2x13 is somehow less lethal than 1x30 plus 2x20,those are mm.
Admittedly,it's been awhile since I've flown either 1 but I think the gonzo chart isnt giving the full picture!
:salute
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I know; what I'm suggesting (not sure since they're different people's data) is that the turn performance figures are with light guns too. More guns would have the A-8 falling even further behind. I'm just going to go test them myself and see.
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:salute
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Ok, here's what I found using the Badboy standard (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/pdf/FlightTestingAH.pdf).
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/moot/databits/D9A8.png)
So the A8 turns as well clean as the D-9 does with 1 notch. Even without flaps it's already behind. Add flaps and you're in trouble.
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I think Gonzo's page uses the 4x20mm gun package. Firing time will be the same (outboard guns run dry inside the same period) but the "lethality' is noticably higher for whatever reason.
Even so, it's still hundreds of pounds lighter hehe
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2x13+4x20 is only slightly less lethal than 2x20+30?
It is. D9 and F8 have same lethality, A8 has more. Anyway, it doesn't matter. The practical data is above. The A8 is negligibly different than the D-9 in sustained turns. Back to square one. The only good qualities it has are firepower and roll rate.
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BaldEagl all time K/D (fighter/fighter-attack):
Tempest
Fw 190A-5
Bf 109K-4
P-47N
Fw 190A-8
BaldEagl all time kills (fighter/fighter-attack):
Spit Mk XVI
Spit Mk IX
Fw 190A-8
F6F-5
Bf109K-4
Notice only two planes make both lists but you've convinced me... the A8 totally sucks and I'm going to quit flying it... but I did tell you it will out-turn a Dora.
In fact, by the earlier post with turn radii, I'm surprised HT even put the 190 family (including the Ta-152) in the game. I think that all the 190's, P-38's and Jugs should be permanently disabled along with a few of the outdated EW planes as well. I mean the Ju-87 and D3A are hardly competitive and who wants to fly a F4F-4?
I'm not exactly sure what it is you're trying to prove here. That any less than uber plane should not be flown?
I'm done with this thread.
Sorry for the hijack Kazaa. Fly the Dora and have fun.
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2x13+4x20 is only slightly less lethal than 2x20+30?
It is. D9 and F8 have same lethality, A8 has more. Anyway, it doesn't matter. The practical data is above. The A8 is negligibly different than the D-9 in sustained turns. Back to square one. The only good qualities it has are firepower and roll rate.
You couldn't even bring yourself to say negligably better. :rofl Proof of a witchunt of sorts.
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You realize it's hard for me to say anything but what things look like at face value?
1) The A-8 is a brick. The envelope is easily one of the worst in the whole game, and the only potential mitigators are roll rate and firepower.
2) Insisting I'm interested in convincing you of anything is strange. The only thing I'm arguing are inarguable stuff like paper numbers and practical figures. Nothing arguable and nothing to do with taste.
3) Because taste and hard numbers are totally independent, I or anyone else can also come up with some stats showing how they better acclimatize to and exploit some particular planes, and skew data that way.
The A-8 is one of the worst planes in the game. It's excessively handicapped by its flight envelope. That's what I'm saying. Whether you or someone else likes it or not has nothing to do with it. I mean.. Imagine if I wrote a wiki article and let that kinda bias into it. "The A-8 is an overall mediocre dogfighter in the MA environment, but since one player likes it, it behooves the reader to turn a blind eye to these concrete facts."
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You couldn't even bring yourself to say negligably better. :rofl Proof of a witchunt of sorts.
Because I'm looking at the whole picture. One of the places you said the A8 was better than the D9 isn't. Roll rate is marginally better. Firepower is meaningless if it's unusable.
Let me add one more thing that's off topic but might ease the apparent pain for you. The 152 is a terrible plane. Ask Urchin's opinion on it. It's overweight and has almost none of the attributes that 190s depend on. The Spit16 could arguably be as much or more of a 190 than the 152. It does have some saving graces and they fortunately for me happen to match my flying almost perfectly, so that despite the blood-boiling faults it's still a model you (I) can extract excellent performance from. It's a tiny margin but thanks to my taste for its overall package, I have the patience for it. Here are a couple of points to be made:
1) That I like it means nothing for
1a) Whether anyone else will like it
1b) Whether it's a good plane in general
1c) How competitive it is when you fly it to its best and how difficult it is to extract that last 10% from it
2) I have no problem admitting these; but in an objective assessment the 152 does in fact come above the A-8 in pretty much any metric except roll rate, and 1 times out of 3 in firepower with the 30mm A8 loadout. Even though the 152 is a miserable ride for what's supposed to be a '45 design, it's still way better than the A-8.
I didn't mention that last point anywhere in my assessment till you brought it up. And why would I - It's got nothing to do with the A-8. If I pressed the point home like I would've before being liable as a trainer, I'd say it's you that should admit you're biased by your fondness of the A-8.
One last point. This is a good example of how "evil" it is to argue with someone who follows arguments thoroughly to their end. You might think it's evil. I think it's the only responsible way to do it.
One very last point... If you really like the 190A-8 so much, you're welcome to write the intro for it on this page.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Fw_190#Fw_190A-8
150-250 words will do.
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Oh please.
Your several page witchunt began with this post:
I prefer the A8 with the 30mm gun package for raw lethality. It's a beast. It'll make you work because you can't really run in it.
It was simply my opinion but you've tried for pages now to pound it into the ground. You could have simply let it go. Now you try to come off all high and mighty playing the "trainer obligation" card. I guess your obligation as a trainer is to do all you can to prove a players opinion wrong if you can? What a tool.
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I have no problem admitting these; but in an objective assessment the 152 does in fact come above the A-8 in pretty much any metric except roll rate, and 1 times out of 3 in firepower with the 30mm A8 loadout. Even though the 152 is a miserable ride for what's supposed to be a '45 design, it's still way better than the A-8.
If you have no problem admitting this why do you conveniently omit the facts that the Ta-152 is hampered in it's dive rate in comparison to the A8, that it will rip the wings off if pulled out of a high speed (~450 mph for the 152... ~600 mph for the A8) dive and that it's prone to radiator damage whereas the A8 has none of those issues?
Not very objective for a trainer only interested in presenting the facts.
[EDIT] And how is a plane more lethal 1 times out of 3? It either is or isn't. I'll guarantee the A8's 30mm gun package is more lethal than any gun package the 152 carries 100% of the time. If this is the type of info you are passing along as a trainer you are doing a disservice to the players and introducing your own personal bias. In any case, you are not presenting facts in this regard.
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I'm not trying or clinging to anything, I'm only stating the facts apparent on their own.
The A8 has lots of firepower yep. So does the B25H, and just like the 25H the A8 has significant enough agility handicap for that firepower to be really limited in effectiveness. Why not mount a 5" naval gun while you're at it? Same story with roll rate. Roll where? Not very far when you've got such a limited envelope. Zoom? The A8's climb is average at best. Engine power is also mediocre. It drops like a brick but unlike the P-47 it can't use its flaps to really knife fight, so you're really in a one way street with the A-8, and the street points down.
1 times out of 3 meaning the 3 different gun packages.
The 152 doesn't rip its wings off any more than the P38 is incapable of diving because of compression.
Radiator damage, sure. Really minor thing unless you fly into bullets like rain.
As for high and mighty. I think you just don't know who you're talking to. I'm not interested in who, only what. The A8 is a terrible plane. Absolutely terrible for luftwaffles like me, who just don't have anything to compete in the MAs with the spit dweebs. Just awful MA performance. If you want to prove me wrong, start there. The Spitfires we have aren't even running at their historical best. Even with a 190A-9 and an overboosted A-5, or maybe an overboosted D-9 and some franken 152H with no GM1 ballast, the allied dweebs have 150 octane which basically nulls the aforementioned 190 bonuses. The only luftwaffle ride that in my mind can stand toe to toe with the late war allied plane set in an MA style fight is the 1.98 ata 109K-4.
So that's my full opinion on the matter right there. You think the A-8 is all that, and I think it's not; and it's got nothing to do with taste. And I'm not the only one with this opinion. Ask Urchin for his opinion on it. And all things considered, it's really not a matter of opinion and you really don't need to be a genius to appreciate that the A-8 is just way down on the performance ladder in an MA environment. It's jus bad, period. And so is the 152, to a lesser degree. The D9 can run around like stink but unless you're flying it in a pack of 3-6, that's not much use. The A-8 can probably manage something similar, but given its extra quick entropy and limited agility (worst sustained turn in the whole game!), it needs even more numbers.
There's no way to spin this one. The A-8 is just one of the worst planes to fight in, in an MA environment. Absolutely nothing to do with taste. If you really believe it's not, then show it to me, I'm all ears and eyes. Let's see evidence.
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Personally, I like the 190's. There isn't one that I don't like. My favorite though, it the 152. That tater gun is so much dang fun. :x I always tell this story about a Yak-9 I managed to rip the tail section off of at D800 with a single tater shot whenever the Ta0152 or 190 is brought up. I never really go on buff hunts, but I love how well it handles on the deck. The wings sure are big targets, though.
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<snip>
+1 :aok
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It's REALLY REALLY hard to get kills in A8 which don't involve several friendlies being about, bombers, or an unawares pilot, though I've seen a very few guys who can jump into a 1 on 3 and come out victorious as often as not...not a frikkin clue how that is
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Ideally, someone like BaldEagl would write a Wiki article for the A-8 and bounce the final draft off NathBDP.
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Ideally, someone like BaldEagl would write a Wiki article for the A-8 and bounce the final draft off NathBDP.
I tried doing a wiki article early on. I couldn't figure it out and gave up.
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Write it up and I'll fix anything wrong with the formatting. You only need to log in, and that's with the regular forum login. Then you just click the edit tab at the top of the pages..
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fw_190A-8&action=edit for the 190A-8 page
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fw_190&action=edit§ion=5 for the A-8 foreword on the general Fw190 page.
Everyone's welcome to do this for their fav plane. It doesn't need to be especially scholarly, only to be accurate and concise, and written in third person.
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If anyone ever visits the Seattle Museum of Flight, you will find a FW 190 D9 that was captured at the end of the war from JG-26, and brought back here to the USA.
Here are some photos of it:
(http://www.thomasgenth.de/FW190D13_4.jpg)
(http://www.thomasgenth.de/FW190D13_1.jpg)
(http://www.thomasgenth.de/FW190D13_3.jpg)
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Yellow 10 is no longer at the Museum of Flight. Paul Allen keeps it at his Flying Heritage Collection (http://www.flyingheritage.com/) near Everett, WA.
I've posted this before, but here are some pics:
http://www.wedge1126photos.dreamhosters.com/fw190/
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I may be missing something, but if thats a -26 D9, why is there a Pik'As on it?
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Before joining JG26 Mj. Götz was assigned to the JG53. He carried his old squads sign over to his new squad. May as visual indications of his respect and connection to the JG53 pilots.
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Before joining JG26 Mj. Götz was assigned to the JG53. He carried his old squads sign over to his new squad. May as visual indications of his respect and connection to the JG53 pilots.
Learn something new every day. :aok
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Also, Yellow 10 appears to be a D13, not a D9.
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Truth is, the D9 is strong in nearly every respect (speed, thrust/weight, firepower, ammo load, roll) EXCEPT turn. But that turn is awful enough to make the D9 not a good match for a lot of planes in a fair 1v1. However, in an MA where no 1v1 is left unmolested, and 5-1 is considered just enough, fair fighting is almost irrelevant anyway.
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Truth is, the D9 is strong in nearly every respect (speed, thrust/weight, firepower, ammo load, roll) EXCEPT turn. But that turn is awful enough to make the D9 not a good match for a lot of planes in a fair 1v1. However, in an MA where no 1v1 is left unmolested, and 5-1 is considered just enough, fair fighting is almost irrelevant anyway.
the Dora is a fantastic bird when your fighting in pairs or more..but in a 1v1 duel situation, I would rather be in a K4/G2
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the Dora is a fantastic bird when your fighting in pairs or more..but in a 1v1 duel situation, I would rather be in a K4/G2
That was pretty much my point JD. :-)
I'll give you a dollar for every occasion you get to fight 1v1 without interlopers, you give me a dime for every time you don't, and I'll still make a profit. ;)
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Truth is that JG26 pilots thought the boost of GM-1 made the 190a8 36mph faster and increased the critical alt with more than 3000 feet, it was a much better airplane than its earlier marks.(source below).
Fw190a8 should be turning close with the a5 model with its increased HP. We have had this debate before.
AH2 A8 would never have succeeded the A5 if it was IRL, remember that LW at late autumn 1944 JG's almost never fought buffs anymore.
Truth is something is very wrong with either its opponents or the the FM itself of the 190a8.
I can strongly recommend reading "the JG2 26 war diaries" both volumes.
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Truth is that JG26 pilots thought the boost of GM-1 made the 190a8 36mph faster and increased the critical alt with more than 3000 feet, it was a much better airplane than its earlier marks.(source below).
Fw190a8 should be turning close with the a5 model with its increased HP. We have had this debate before.
AH2 A8 would never have succeeded the A5 if it was IRL, remember that LW at late autumn 1944 JG's almost never fought buffs anymore.
Truth is something is very wrong with either its opponents or the the FM itself of the 190a8.
I can strongly recommend reading "the JG2 26 war diaries" both volumes.
Thats what I was thinking, why the LW took in the A8 if it was that much inferior to the A5 in most aspects ? I know it was modded to HO bombers but still....with that much more HP....
That thread made me want to fly the D9 for a bit in the MA...awesome bird, long time I didn't fly anything that fast :)
Model Type Kills In Kills Of Killed By Died In
La-5FN 99 0 0 31
Fw 190D-9 44 7 4 3
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190A5, Nuff said.
:aok
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Not trying to puff out my chest here, but my K/D ratio for tour 115, in the 190-D9 was 168-9.
Nice plane when you have a wingman, not much you can do in the 190-D9 if you don't.
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Nice plane when you have a wingman.
Yep cause if a decent pony or la7 pilot catches you, you are DEAD :D
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Truth is that JG26 pilots thought the boost of GM-1 made the 190a8 36mph faster and increased the critical alt with more than 3000 feet, it was a much better airplane than its earlier marks.(source below).
Fw190a8 should be turning close with the a5 model with its increased HP. We have had this debate before.
AH2 A8 would never have succeeded the A5 if it was IRL, remember that LW at late autumn 1944 JG's almost never fought buffs anymore.
Truth is something is very wrong with either its opponents or the the FM itself of the 190a8.
I can strongly recommend reading "the JG2 26 war diaries" both volumes.
The Il-2 charts are very similar to AH for the A-5/A-8. Although both are faster at low level than in AH, the altitudes at which the A-8 is faster are identical to AH, as well as the A-5's higher max TAS and critical altitude.
A difference is in RoC, where in Il-2 the A-8 outclimbs the A-5 between 3km and 4.5km. In AH the A-5 outclimbs the A-8 at all altitudes.
It would seem that the games are based off of two different data sets, neither of which matches the description of an A-8 that outperforms the A-5.
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Not trying to puff out my chest here, but my K/D ratio for tour 115....
Oh, yes you are. "Look at me, I'm this good at picking and running, my K/D ratio is..."
:rofl
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Don't forget HOing and vultching. :aok
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not HO its bad for the K/D ratio :D
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not HO its bad for the K/D ratio :D
Only if you're the one NOT flying a Fw190.
Never HO a 190. You may get some hits, but you'll die 75% of the time or more.
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Only if you're the one NOT flying a Fw190.
Never HO a 190. You may get some hits, but you'll die 75% of the time or more.
The radiator in a Dora goes out so easily though.
I admit though, last A8 sortie I had I was cutting across a Spit's turning circle for a crosser shot. He does not profile, jink, does not pass go, does not collect 200 dollars. No, he does what has become a typical guns defense for 50% of Spits in the MA lately, he uses all that available maneuverability for nothing better than to turn directly nose on for a HO with Hispanos. I fed him a 30MM round in the nose and no, I don't feel the SLIGHTEST bit guilty.
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well if you let the spit do its stuff you are dead in a 190A8...better end the fight quick.
The gunnery in the 190 is a bit odd, as the cannons are not inline with the engines, not on the wings either, so its quite different from the other planes. The trick is to aim higher, Ive sen a few dedicated 190 gunsights that put emphasis on the lower part of the sight. Once you get the feeling the HOs can be won, even if I consider HO's to be a waste of my climbing time.
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Oh, yes you are. "Look at me, I'm this good at picking and running, my K/D ratio is..."
:rofl
IMHO just about the only thing that separates a 10 K/D from 100 is luck
Two things:
He flew 5 sorties for that K/D for a total of less than 90 minutes. Not getting killed for an hour and a half is not something to tout as exceptional.
With a little luck, even a marginally skilled person can achieve that K/D for 90 minutes, even without picking and running.
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Steve, what have you been smoking? :rolleyes:
I'm sure I flew more then 5 sorties in the 190D9 last tour. :uhoh Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
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oops misunderstood
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Steve, what have you been smoking? :rolleyes:
I'm sure I flew more then 5 sorties in the 190D9 last tour. :uhoh Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
I was referring to fighter mode. Would be weird to fly a d9 in attack unless you were worried about your fighter score.
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lolscore.
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lolscore.
I'm not saying that's your goal, brutha.
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I was referring to fighter mode. Would be weird to fly a d9 in attack unless you were worried about your fighter score.
Or carrying a bomb?
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I’ve been playing AH2 on and off for almost 5 years now and I could count the times I flew an FW190 model on one hand, ok maybe two. But yesterday that all changed.
I was playing in Orange arena, the map was trinity, the base I was attacking being A1 (Death Valley) and my poor little tank was getting pwned by the armada of IL2s and B25s. I decided to give up the torture and strap into a fighter for some much needed payback. I find myself going into the hanger and browsing through the list for what I would coin as “long endurance fighter”, this means long range, a healthy supply of ammo and most importantly goes like the clappers because we all know A1 can get a little bit fruity. Instantly the P-51D comes to mind but for some reason as I’m scrolling down and I find myself stopping at the FW190D. Now being a Spitfire driver at heart I dislike the FW190D9 with a passion as it’s normally flown very timidly and out of position by other players, but I said what the hell and jumped into it anyway.
To cut a long story short I find myself over A1 with a good number of enemy fighters to dispatch before I could sink my teeth into the abundance of heavy A/C that plagued my GV sorties. Myself and a few other countrymen started with the highest threats and worked our way down. We were outnumbered but had just enough energy advantage to stay alive, it was a slaughter! I don’t think any other unperked ride could have done a better job, what a beast I thought to myself.
All around I found the FW190D9 to be nothing short of a spectacular in the offensive roll and wanted to start kicking myself for not giving it the time of day before.
(insert heavy breathing)
Welcome to the dark side, Luke
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Dora, a long endurance fighter? :confused:
The Dora has just enough internal fuel to fly from here |-----------> to here. I think even the La-7 has a longer endurance on internal.
Good story though :)
throttle and RPM management during level flight both to the fight and on the way home can increase that range considerably while still maintaining enough speed to get away.
I rarely carry or, need a drop tank.
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(insert heavy breathing)
Welcome to the dark side, Luke
:rofl :aok :rock
WWVF?
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I love the way the Dora handles, however I can't hit anything with the guns? what do you guys set the Convergence to on the Dora?
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I love the way the Dora handles, however I can't hit anything with the guns? what do you guys set the Convergence to on the Dora?
easier to gauge if ya fire only cannons....the hit sprites from the bullets throw ya off, and they don't do much anyway
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I'm not saying that's your goal, brutha.
Steve,
I don't even bother looking at the mode my sorties are scored under anymore. The last time I played for score was in tour 77.
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easier to gauge if ya fire only cannons....the hit sprites from the bullets throw ya off, and they don't do much anyway
Actually the 13MMs on the Dora are decent guns, not like the BBs on the A-5.
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Actually the 13MMs on the Dora are decent guns, not like the BBs on the A-5.
Yes, and the muzzle velocities on the 13mm are very, very close to the 20mm, which is all the more reason to fire them together.
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I love the way the Dora handles, however I can't hit anything with the guns? what do you guys set the Convergence to on the Dora?
the main problem with all the luftwaffe guns, are poor balistics, most of my kills are done when I cant even see the enemy plane, unless Im shooting a roped plane, or I am on the dead six of an unaware pilot
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Not trying to puff out my chest here, but my K/D ratio for tour 115, in the 190-D9 was 168-9.
Nice plane when you have a wingman, not much you can do in the 190-D9 if you don't.
Yeah, the way I see it, 190s excel at picking and don't really do too much else, and having a wingman flying loose deuce with you is just organized picking. (Not trying to be negative - I view picking as a legit and efficient means to kills).
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Yeah, the way I see it, 190s excel at picking and don't really do too much else, and having a wingman flying loose deuce with you is just organized picking. (Not trying to be negative - I view picking as a legit and efficient means to kills).
but then, you would not fly the 190 to turn fight with a hurrican. :)
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but then, you would not fly the 190 to turn fight with a hurrican. :)
Certainly, my point is simply that because you are not looking to turn fight (and really can't), you are left with BnZ pick runs.
And since picking while flying solo is unreliable in the sense that you have to seek out a big fight where the enemy is already engaged with your country-mates, the best way to fly a 190 would be using loose deuce which is essentially organized and consistent picking.
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Certainly, my point is simply that because you are not looking to turn fight (and really can't), you are left with BnZ pick runs.
And since picking while flying solo is unreliable in the sense that you have to seek out a big fight where the enemy is already engaged with your country-mates, the best way to fly a 190 would be using loose deuce which is essentially organized and consistent picking.
Energy fighting.
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Yeah, the way I see it, 190s excel at picking and don't really do too much else, and having a wingman flying loose deuce with you is just organized picking. (Not trying to be negative - I view picking as a legit and efficient means to kills).
Once again, 190A5, Nuff said.
:aok
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Energy fighting.
I'm no expert, I'm the guy who tried the 190 a few times and got frustrated and went back to 109s. So read the next paragraph with that in mind. If there's anything I didn't know or didn't take into account, feel free to update me. I would certainly like to fly the 190 better if possible.
There are better energy fighters (109s, Spit8, 14, 16). The 190s have a hard time converting their energy into an angles advantage (and by extension a kill shot) because their corner velocity is so high and turn performance degrades so much with speed. E fighting also takes time, which works against the 190s strengths of speed and high snapshot firepower. Seems smarter to make BnZ pick passes than to sit and energy fight them.
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D9's are awesome when other friendlies are about :aok
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I'm no expert, I'm the guy who tried the 190 a few times and got frustrated and went back to 109s. So read the next paragraph with that in mind. If there's anything I didn't know or didn't take into account, feel free to update me. I would certainly like to fly the 190 better if possible.
There are better energy fighters (109s, Spit8, 14, 16). The 190s have a hard time converting their energy into an angles advantage (and by extension a kill shot) because their corner velocity is so high and turn performance degrades so much with speed. E fighting also takes time, which works against the 190s strengths of speed and high snapshot firepower. Seems smarter to make BnZ pick passes than to sit and energy fight them.
No argument from me, there ARE better energy fighters. Everything out-turns it, and lots of fighters in AHII have a higher thrust/weight. I was just saying it wasn't as completely one dimensional as you make out.
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No argument from me, there ARE better energy fighters. Everything out-turns it, and lots of fighters in AHII have a higher thrust/weight. I was just saying it wasn't as completely one dimensional as you make out.
Roger, I was mainly communicating what I felt was the best approach, not trying to take into account everything that is possible. :salute
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I’ve been playing AH2 on and off for almost 5 years now and I could count the times I flew an FW190 model on one hand, ok maybe two. But yesterday that all changed.
I was playing in Orange arena, the map was trinity, the base I was attacking being A1 (Death Valley) and my poor little tank was getting pwned by the armada of IL2s and B25s. I decided to give up the torture and strap into a fighter for some much needed payback. I find myself going into the hanger and browsing through the list for what I would coin as “long endurance fighter”, this means long range, a healthy supply of ammo and most importantly goes like the clappers because we all know A1 can get a little bit fruity. Instantly the P-51D comes to mind but for some reason as I’m scrolling down and I find myself stopping at the FW190D. Now being a Spitfire driver at heart I dislike the FW190D9 with a passion as it’s normally flown very timidly and out of position by other players, but I said what the hell and jumped into it anyway.
To cut a long story short I find myself over A1 with a good number of enemy fighters to dispatch before I could sink my teeth into the abundance of heavy A/C that plagued my GV sorties. Myself and a few other countrymen started with the highest threats and worked our way down. We were outnumbered but had just enough energy advantage to stay alive, it was a slaughter! I don’t think any other unperked ride could have done a better job, what a beast I thought to myself.
All around I found the FW190D9 to be nothing short of a spectacular in the offensive roll and wanted to start kicking myself for not giving it the time of day before.
Kazza, the Dora is a great bird <S>
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D9's are awesome when other friendlies are about :aok
I noticed you had a good run in one yesterday near base 41.
A8 is good high eny mission plane. Never took out a buff with one so fast as I did in an A8. Good for vulching too but oh lordy don't killshoot yourself.
I've only flown the D9 a couple of times. Seems like a decent plane to me. Has good range, speed, and ammo load.
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and turn performance degrades so much with speed
thats the point of the 190, their turn performance is crappy, but at high speed its way better than most planes, making it very very dangerous on the offensive. The hard part is to convert your speed advantage into alt without being caught, the F4U got the same problem. I believe the solution is to climb at 250-300mph, where the dora can still climb nicely, while the spit for example is almost at max speed. Most pilots will dive under you to stay in contact, but thats where they meet their doom, making your E conversion complete.
Somehow I said to much.
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I noticed you had a good run in one yesterday near base 41.
A8 is good high eny mission plane. Never took out a buff with one so fast as I did in an A8. Good for vulching too but oh lordy don't killshoot yourself.
I've only flown the D9 a couple of times. Seems like a decent plane to me. Has good range, speed, and ammo load.
I never fly D9's (A8's now and again) Was in a P47N (WERE a lotta friendlies about tho :) ) As I recall, was the first mission in 6 of camp that I either got a kill OR didnt die....some weeks go better than others. The night or 2 before at same base I was pimpslapped repeatedly...( I think Rooks owned it at that time)
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I never fly D9's (A8's now and again) Was in a P47N (WERE a lotta friendlies about tho :) ) As I recall, was the first mission in 6 of camp that I either got a kill OR didnt die....some weeks go better than others. The night or 2 before at same base I was pimpslapped repeatedly...( I think Rooks owned it at that time)
Well who was I thinking of then?! My error.
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Or carrying a bomb?
Doras carry bombs? :huh