Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: nimble on November 02, 2009, 06:46:22 PM
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Lots of threads/arguments happen over getting HOd or gangbanged on forums or 200. I used to do it myself a lot until I realized(and matured) it was my own damn fault. When you take a plane up, you decide your situation for the most part. I know there are a lot of better pilots than me, but I thought I'd share my philosophy of handling the MA with the hope that maybe one of the newer folks could benefit. More busy than usual at work, so I'm just going to make a list instead of wordsmith. Most of this is just picked up from reading various sources with maybe(stressed) some of my own experience thrown in. I apologize to Steve in advance.
1) Understand that SA deals with the macro as well as the micro. You need to consider(regardless of how much you may think it sucks) that the MA has HOers and gangbangers. It's reality, if you disregard it, that is your own fault.
2) If you get HO'd, it is your fault for not saving enough E to avoid it. Just because you have someones 6 doesn't mean you need to hit the deck with them in order to get the kill. If there is a big darbar, figure out what it consists of before commiting to a kill. If someone finds you low and slow and HOs you after you spent all your E chasing a con who was no longer a threat(ie blew his E to run) for a kill, your bad, bro.
3) Alt is life, the more you have the better. You cannot manuever underneath the ground(well, usually, hi FireHwk!). 99% of gangbangs happen because a pilot made the bad choice of not storing enough E relative to the size of the darbar, or didn't take the time to get a good grasp of the situation before engaging. 10-15k is usually sufficient to get a good eyeball for the situation and still be able to avoid a gangbang.
4) don't enter a fight climbing. Get to your desired alt before entering the engagement with speed built up.
5) If you are flying alone, be wary of the line directly between contended bases. If the enemy base has radar up, move in and out of it in relation to the direction of the fight. If the main fight is happening east to west, brush the radar north or south. This will generally get you some easy kills on people who ignore #3 or think you are a bad c47. You get the idea. This not only helps you live as a soloist, but it draws resources(pilots) away from the main fight. Work those edges, brosef. It's very rare for someone to not come and investigate.
6) if you do decide to enter the main fight flying solo, adjust your attack path so that you are not flying towards either base on passes. If the fight is happening east to west, attack the line between from the north and south. This is especially good for finding a good 1v1 outside of the DA. Someone will eventually get mad enough to follow you away from the fight, seperating them from support coming into the fight and from being gangbanged by you own team.
7) Always keep some E around the main furball area, it helps a lot with the seperation tactic in #6.
8) Use a fast plane or one that dives well with good high speed response.
I'll add more later maybe or get rid if the post later :) Oxys are a hell of a drug. I'll ignore the don't post unless you are totally sober rule for today.
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Good write up Nimble. That's pretty much how I fly in the MA except I don't fly a fast plane (F6F). Often the other guy starts with alt and its a question of using his excess speed to force an overshoot. Most opposition I come across is faster and runs away ASAP if I have alt.
Sometimes I'll take rockets to an enemy field and kill the ord to protect a CV. Its surprising how often someone will then immediately up as they think you are simply a toolshedder.... :devil
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Good write up Nimble. That's pretty much how I fly in the MA except I don't fly a fast plane (F6F).
Why I added the or dives well caveat. Nothin like outurning a spit16 or 8 becauseche is unable to at high speeds and then finds himself unable to burn it off before you :)
And thanks, a thumbs up from an uber pilot like yourself means a lot!
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Don't forget rule #1: whining changes nothing.
and maybe something about vulching?
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and maybe something about vulching?
Very rarely do I participate in that, not my area. I suck at porking, bombing, and anything else that really doesn't deal with plain fight sweeps, feel free to add your own tips to the thread though!
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I don't vulch either, but its simmilar to being under attack by an alt monkey and fits with #3.
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I don't vulch either, but its simmilar to being under attack by an alt monkey and fits with #3.
Not sure if this was a jibe or not. Altitude is necessary when you are a soloist in the MA. Plain and simple. Alt monkey is just a derogatory term for someone who flies intelligently. 10-15k is not that severe when the reality is that you will be meeting cons at that altitude or higher. It's all about accepting what you are going to be facing in the MA. Plain and simple. There will be high cons, that's just a fact. Nullifying their advantage over you to at least some degree is just part of the macro SA if AH2 and accepting it as a necessary evil. That, and I hate dying. Especially to someone who on even terms would be in the tower after a merge or two.
Without people flying in this manner, you have no one to push down the alt monkies of the opposing country. High cap is just as important to a furball as the furball is. People with altitude have a much better chance of notifying people who are about to be towered by a con, as well as being the ones who have the highest chance to successfully thwart those trying to end the fight with bombers. With the current mechanics, you need folks at varying altitudes. It's pretty elementary.
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Good posts. A couple of off the cuff ideas of my own
don't enter a fight climbing. Get to your desired alt before entering the engagement with speed built up
You are much more dangerous at 8k and 400 mph than you are at 12k and 150 mph.
if you do decide to enter the main fight flying solo, adjust your attack path so that you are not flying towards either base on passes
Always know which way will allow you egress and plan for this ahead of time. Running toward your base but under a cloud of enemy is no way to stay alive. Know where the blue skies are.
10-15k is usually sufficient to get a good eyeball for the situation and still be able to avoid a gangbang
IMHO, 6-10k is plenty unless you are looking for buffs. Also, at 400 mph and 6k- 10k, the 20k alt tards are not going to consider you a good target and will look for other prey.
If you are flying alone, be wary of the line directly between contended bases. If the enemy base has radar up, move in and out of it in relation to the direction of the fight.
On your way to the base, avoid the first tempting targets as any protracted fight will attract enemies with E/alt. Start your solo fight at the enemy base/far side of the fight and work your way back. You path of egress can change, keep a constant eye on DAR and your views to be aware of this.
In a furball, look for the helper kills first. What I mean is, instead of the easiest target in a furball, find the ones that help your team first. For instance: clear your teammates 6's first, even if it means skipping that juicy C47. Look for the enemy who is picking the furball and get rid of them. Find the friendlies in trouble and help them out. Really, even though you are solo and outnumbered, it is ultimately a team game where cooperation leads to better chances of success/survival. Also, the very guy you clear will probably be in line to save your tail some time down the road. He's probably going to remember how you jumped into a hairy mess in order to save him. Again, even for us loners, it really is a team game. Besides, it feels good to help your teammates out.
Always keep some E around the main furball area, it helps a lot with the seperation tactic in #6.
Again, a picker over the furball is going to go after slow planes/easy targets. Keep enough speed so you do not present a juicy target for them. Almost no pickers are skilled enough to hit a plane who is aware and able to evade. You will really be surprised how you can fly around while garnering little attention in the form of attacks if you simply do not make yourself an easy mark.
If you loiter at a base/fight for more than a couple of minutes, be aware of the payback factor. The payback factor is the guy you killed 10 minutes ago who comes back in a high tempest or other monster and he is looking to for some payback.....looking for you.
Make good decisions on who you choose to target: i.e is this target worth the E investment to attack? will attacking him limit or eliminate my egress chances? Is a teammate already saddled? Is the guy obviously RTB and as far as I know fought the good fight? Obviously you have to make these decisions quickly and will not always get it right so keep in mind your egress, always.
when I make a pass at an enemy in a furball, I try to have a 2nd or even third option in mind. If the first guy evades or even dies before I have a solution, I wont waste the pass if I have a second or third priority target in mind.
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2) If you get HO'd, it is your fault for not saving enough E to avoid it. Just because you have someones 6 doesn't mean you need to hit the deck with them in order to get the kill. If there is a big darbar, figure out what it consists of before commiting to a kill. If someone finds you low and slow and HOs you after you spent all your E chasing a con who was no longer a threat(ie blew his E to run) for a kill, your bad, bro.
3) Alt is life, the more you have the better. You cannot manuever underneath the ground(well, usually, hi FireHwk!). 99% of gangbangs happen because a pilot made the bad choice of not storing enough E relative to the size of the darbar, or didn't take the time to get a good grasp of the situation before engaging. 10-15k is usually sufficient to get a good eyeball for the situation and still be able to avoid a gangbang.
4) don't enter a fight climbing. Get to your desired alt before entering the engagement with speed built up.
5) If you are flying alone, be wary of the line directly between contended bases. If the enemy base has radar up, move in and out of it in relation to the direction of the fight. If the main fight is happening east to west, brush the radar north or south. This will generally get you some easy kills on people who ignore #3 or think you are a bad c47. You get the idea. This not only helps you live as a soloist, but it draws resources(pilots) away from the main fight. Work those edges, brosef. It's very rare for someone to not come and investigate.
7) Always keep some E around the main furball area, it helps a lot with the seperation tactic in #6.
8) Use a fast plane or one that dives well with good high speed response.
For a total new person this may be fine. They won't learn much but they'll live a little longer.
For anyone else it is just plain timid flying.... and you won't get any better.
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Great post Steve (and nimble).
I like to plan my passes such that I'm working towards friendly skies.
I have also noticed that it is, indeed, possible to fly around and not attract a lot of attention, especially at lower/mid alts. If you're sitting at about 6k, you have a lot of space to work with; yet, someone sitting up at 15k is unlikely to come all the way down to get you.
I STRONGLY prefer a lower/mid alt in a good climber like a spit or, especially, a 109K4. Especially because the K4 can't dive well.
Just my opinions.
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Good posts. A couple of off the cuff ideas of my own
You are much more dangerous at 8k and 400 mph than you are at 12k and 150 mph.
Always know which way will allow you egress and plan for this ahead of time. Running toward your base but under a cloud of enemy is no way to stay alive. Know where the blue skies are.
IMHO, 6-10k is plenty unless you are looking for buffs. Also, at 400 mph and 6k- 10k, the 20k alt tards are not going to consider you a good target and will look for other prey.
On your way to the base, avoid the first tempting targets as any protracted fight will attract enemies with E/alt. Start your solo fight at the enemy base/far side of the fight and work your way back. You path of egress can change, keep a constant eye on DAR and your views to be aware of this.
In a furball, look for the helper kills first. What I mean is, instead of the easiest target in a furball, find the ones that help your team first. For instance: clear your teammates 6's first, even if it means skipping that juicy C47. Look for the enemy who is picking the furball and get rid of them. Find the friendlies in trouble and help them out. Really, even though you are solo and outnumbered, it is ultimately a team game where cooperation leads to better chances of success/survival. Also, the very guy you clear will probably be in line to save your tail some time down the road. He's probably going to remember how you jumped into a hairy mess in order to save him. Again, even for us loners, it really is a team game. Besides, it feels good to help your teammates out.
Again, a picker over the furball is going to go after slow planes/easy targets. Keep enough speed so you do not present a juicy target for them. Almost no pickers are skilled enough to hit a plane who is aware and able to evade. You will really be surprised how you can fly around while garnering little attention in the form of attacks if you simply do not make yourself an easy mark.
If you loiter at a base/fight for more than a couple of minutes, be aware of the payback factor. The payback factor is the guy you killed 10 minutes ago who comes back in a high tempest or other monster and he is looking to for some payback.....looking for you.
Make good decisions on who you choose to target: i.e is this target worth the E investment to attack? will attacking him limit or eliminate my egress chances? Is a teammate already saddled? Is the guy obviously RTB and as far as I know fought the good fight? Obviously you have to make these decisions quickly and will not always get it right so keep in mind your egress, always.
when I make a pass at an enemy in a furball, I try to have a 2nd or even third option in mind. If the first guy evades or even dies before I have a solution, I wont waste the pass if I have a second or third priority target in mind.
definately a good compliment to the original post. Hey, maybe a future guide is in order :)
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Good posts. A couple of off the cuff ideas of my own
You are much more dangerous at 8k and 400 mph than you are at 12k and 150 mph.
Always know which way will allow you egress and plan for this ahead of time. Running toward your base but under a cloud of enemy is no way to stay alive. Know where the blue skies are.
IMHO, 6-10k is plenty unless you are looking for buffs. Also, at 400 mph and 6k- 10k, the 20k alt tards are not going to consider you a good target and will look for other prey.
On your way to the base, avoid the first tempting targets as any protracted fight will attract enemies with E/alt. Start your solo fight at the enemy base/far side of the fight and work your way back. You path of egress can change, keep a constant eye on DAR and your views to be aware of this.
In a furball, look for the helper kills first. What I mean is, instead of the easiest target in a furball, find the ones that help your team first. For instance: clear your teammates 6's first, even if it means skipping that juicy C47. Look for the enemy who is picking the furball and get rid of them. Find the friendlies in trouble and help them out. Really, even though you are solo and outnumbered, it is ultimately a team game where cooperation leads to better chances of success/survival. Also, the very guy you clear will probably be in line to save your tail some time down the road. He's probably going to remember how you jumped into a hairy mess in order to save him. Again, even for us loners, it really is a team game. Besides, it feels good to help your teammates out.
Again, a picker over the furball is going to go after slow planes/easy targets. Keep enough speed so you do not present a juicy target for them. Almost no pickers are skilled enough to hit a plane who is aware and able to evade. You will really be surprised how you can fly around while garnering little attention in the form of attacks if you simply do not make yourself an easy mark.
If you loiter at a base/fight for more than a couple of minutes, be aware of the payback factor. The payback factor is the guy you killed 10 minutes ago who comes back in a high tempest or other monster and he is looking to for some payback.....looking for you.
Make good decisions on who you choose to target: i.e is this target worth the E investment to attack? will attacking him limit or eliminate my egress chances? Is a teammate already saddled? Is the guy obviously RTB and as far as I know fought the good fight? Obviously you have to make these decisions quickly and will not always get it right so keep in mind your egress, always.
when I make a pass at an enemy in a furball, I try to have a 2nd or even third option in mind. If the first guy evades or even dies before I have a solution, I wont waste the pass if I have a second or third priority target in mind.
I often think about this as im diving in on a con who is clearly damaged. I wonder to myself, did he just win a challenging fight, taking a few hits in the process. Or did he just HO' someone and took a few return hits.
Great post.
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No it isn't a jibe nimble, all I was saying is the situation is simmilar, you are lower than your attacker, you have less E, sometimes MUCH less depending on how long the dive was in both situations. If you've been vulched but found a counter move, then please share.
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No it isn't a jibe nimble, all I was saying is the situation is simmilar, you are lower than your attacker, you have less E, sometimes MUCH less depending on how long the dive was in both situations. If you've been vulched but found a counter move, then please share.
Up from an uncapped base nearby :)
If dealing with someone with a huge amount of alt, well they can only use so much until they start getting diminishing returns. I like to keep at least 7-8k and over 250 in my jugs. It's very easy to equalize energy states in that particular bird, but that's for another thread :)
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Great Post Nimble and Steve,
When I forget these general rules I tend to get into trouble.
Luck and skill ( mostly luck ) will determine how much a person can work outside of these simple rules to live by.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl OK, I take that to mean you have no clue what could help if your on an island base 4 sectors from a "near by" base.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl OK, I take that to mean you have no clue what could help if your on an island base 4 sectors from a "near by" base.
Ah, sorry if I had confused the topic. I was sticking to the OP of lonewolfing and working the edges of a fight between two close bases. Sorry for any confusion!
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No its OK. I was kind of kidding. But serisouly, if you DO know a trick that helps, for the love of god tell us :x!!!!!!
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When I say this is timid flying I do not mean it to belittle anyone. I was just calling it as it is.
If you consistently place yourself in the middle of a furball, your situational awareness will get better and better. Sure at first you will probably get shot down more. Soon you will be fairly comfortable when there are only 3 planes on you. If you practice low and slow in your bird of choice it will pay off in aces. Everyone... no matter how good or bad will find themselves in this situation at one time or another. The cartoon pilot that has practiced in this situation will come out on top more times than not.
We get a free plane if we get shot down. Why not use that to your advantage. Soon you will be surviving confrontations you would previously never believed possible.
When at a disadvantage.... no matter how many cons are trying to get you..... NEVER give up. Keep trying and you'll be surprised what you may learn.
If you only approach a fight when you have an advantage, you'll be climbing and watching much more than in actual combat. Actual combat that would help make you a more rounded cartoon pilot.
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When I say this is timid flying I do not mean it to belittle anyone. I was just calling it as it is.
Then try a different qualifier. You say "timid" and its instantly taken as belittling to those that choose to fly that way.
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Then try a different qualifier. You say "timid" and its instantly taken as belittling to those that choose to fly that way.
"Timid" covers it, however that refers to the person. Maybe the correct term should be timorous as I referring to their style of flight.
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"Timid" covers it best.....
What would you call it?
Timid: " unassertive: demonstrating a lack of courage or self-assurance"
...something other than that. There's no way you'll ever get anyone to understand that word as anything other than derrogatory.
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How about deliberate...
deliberate: "intentional: carefully thought out and done intentionally"
The fact that you favor a plane that can competitively morph into different flying styles flavors your view of these techniques.
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How about deliberate...
deliberate: "intentional: carefully thought out and done intentionally"
Doesn't fit. In AH the fight is the game..... why not fight.
Are they deliberately not trying to get better?
The plane I fly is capable of a lot of types of flying as are many in the game. Are they flown that way? Only by those who push them!
Most any plane in the set is capable of way more than anyone following your suggestion will ever know. That is the point I am trying to make here.
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Are they deliberately not trying to get better?
I should have known better than to even try... :rolleyes:
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I should have known better than to even try... :rolleyes:
:lol
Maybe this will be easier to get across.
Do you think a grand prix driver will improve more running around the track by himself? Or will he improve more running around the track in competition.
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I have always seen the "timid" qualifier as a way of describing flying that is not the into the furball turn & burn flying style. Forgive me if this overly generalized. I fly what I consider a more rounded AH experience utilizing a mix of BNZ and TNB both at low and high altitudes. I understand why some folks take "timid" as an insult.
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Doesn't fit. In AH the fight is the game..... why not fight.
Are they deliberately not trying to get better?
The plane I fly is capable of a lot of types of flying as are many in the game. Are they flown that way? Only by those who push them!
Most any plane in the set is capable of way more than anyone following your suggestion will ever know. That is the point I am trying to make here.
I hear what you're saying shuff, but some of us just hit an improvement wall.
My wall had a lot to do with my stepping away from AH. Whether I dove in and tangled or played conservatively I just couldnt move the next notch up. The tours I tried just flying for the fight got really really frustrating because my poor gunnery kept me from killing before being ground up by the swarm, so even having better ACM didnt get me the pelts. And no matter how much I worked with offline practice, training arena, and even some trainer time I didnt seem to get over that hump.
Add that discouragement to chronically flying alone, and yeah, there were definitely times I looked to just get some kills.
I guess what I'm saying is that not everybody CAN improve continuously.
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Then try a different qualifier. You say "timid" and its instantly taken as belittling to those that choose to fly that way.
I think you've hit the nail on the head Stoney - It's the constant insulting rude statements that gall me and give me the impression that these people are just out to get people to fly their way - in ways that may play into their hands because of the dynamics of the different FM's - the plus and negative flight characteristics of different planes.
IE: Just because you HO does NOT mean you do not know proper ACM for the plane you are in - just becuse you do NOT furball with a lot of spits and zekes when you are in a 190A8 does not mean you are ignorant of how to properly fight your aircraft. Likely it means you know the strengths of your plane and are going to fight it that way and not give in to this constant pressure to enter into low altitude (below 10,000 heheh) slow furballs.
Those "fight" people are entitled to their thinking and I for one would never insist they change how they play (as they seem to insist people play their way).- actually their style plays into my style - keep it up lads!!.
To me the fun IS in the WIN!! the KILL is everything!! I get a tremendous charge seeing pieces flying off and flames and hearing their screams as they fall to earth!! I couldn't care less about how I get it - never have and never will - their cartoon plane is "dead" and mine is "alive" - that's ALL that matters - and if they don't like it....TUFF TITTY!!! :neener: I play the FSO and other events only with one thing in mind - as does the rest of my squad - to WIN!! Everything in the Main is just practice for that!!
So I take extreme umbrage when I'm insulted and shivied into playing by DA standards - let them "play fair" and roll around in circles having their little furballs - all they want - nothing is more A-typical of what occured during the majority of the air war <shrug> - but don't go whining when things don't go your way or people don't play the way you want.
Fair?? you want FAIR?? Go to Disneyland if you want fair!! From me all you'll get is a face full of 20 mike mikes!! :devil
...just my 2cents Cdn!!
Oh ya BTW - HTC KEEP up the great work!!!
...cheers eh! :D
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I hear what you're saying shuff, but some of us just hit an improvement wall.
My wall had a lot to do with my stepping away from AH. Whether I dove in and tangled or played conservatively I just couldnt move the next notch up. The tours I tried just flying for the fight got really really frustrating because my poor gunnery kept me from killing before being ground up by the swarm, so even having better ACM didnt get me the pelts. And no matter how much I worked with offline practice, training arena, and even some trainer time I didnt seem to get over that hump.
Add that discouragement to chronically flying alone, and yeah, there were definitely times I looked to just get some kills.
I guess what I'm saying is that not everybody CAN improve continuously.
I agree. The ones I am referring to are the ones that do not commit. They stay outside and watch till they have all the advantages. Those are the ones that will not improve much on anything but watching for a chance. Once someone reaches their peak, there will always be someone better. Being a top stick does not mean being "THE" top stick. It only means being the best you can.
As for your gunnery... have you considered it may not be your gunnery but your stick settings? It might also be something to do with your connection. <S>
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I think you've hit the nail on the head Stoney - It's the constant insulting rude statements that gall me and give me the impression that these people are just out to get people to fly their way - in ways that may play into their hands because of the dynamics of the different FM's - the plus and negative flight characteristics of different planes.
IE: Just because you HO does NOT mean you do not know proper ACM for the plane you are in - just becuse you do NOT furball with a lot of spits and zekes when you are in a 190A8 does not mean you are ignorant of how to properly fight your aircraft. Likely it means you know the strengths of your plane and are going to fight it that way and not give in to this constant pressure to enter into low altitude (below 10,000 heheh) slow furballs.
Those "fight" people are entitled to their thinking and I for one would never insist they change how they play (as they seem to insist people play their way).- actually their style plays into my style - keep it up lads!!.
To me the fun IS in the WIN!! the KILL is everything!! I get a tremendous charge seeing pieces flying off and flames and hearing their screams as they fall to earth!! I couldn't care less about how I get it - never have and never will - their cartoon plane is "dead" and mine is "alive" - that's ALL that matters - and if they don't like it....TUFF TITTY!!! :neener: I play the FSO and other events only with one thing in mind - as does the rest of my squad - to WIN!! Everything in the Main is just practice for that!!
So I take extreme umbrage when I'm insulted and shivied into playing by DA standards - let them "play fair" and roll around in circles having their little furballs - all they want - nothing is more A-typical of what occured during the majority of the air war <shrug> - but don't go whining when things don't go your way or people don't play the way you want.
Fair?? you want FAIR?? Go to Disneyland if you want fair!! From me all you'll get is a face full of 20 mike mikes!! :devil
...just my 2cents Cdn!!
Oh ya BTW - HTC KEEP up the great work!!!
...cheers eh! :D
How do you know what your plane is capable of unless you really push it. Too many never learn their plane of choice.
To me the fun is in the fight. Otherwise I'd be flying in MSFS. Kills mean little. The excitement is when you've done all you can do in a fight. More so when your competitor or competitors were at advantage.
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I agree. The ones I am referring to are the ones that do not commit. They stay outside and watch till they have all the advantages. Those are the ones that will not improve much on anything but watching for a chance. Once someone reaches their peak, there will always be someone better. Being a top stick does not mean being "THE" top stick. It only means being the best you can.
Roger that. Honestly I think the bigger problem for me was always flying alone, not finding a group I really meshed with. I expect that the day will come for me to come back, but for right now I'm honestly enjoying being around the family more.
As for your gunnery... have you considered it may not be your gunnery but your stick settings? It might also be something to do with your connection. <S>
I'm pretty sure my shooting deficiencies come from some kind of mental processing defect in 3D environments. I constantly found myself thinking along the lines of "when it looks like this, shoot THERE" instead of naturally knowing where the bullets and the target would intersect.
Meanwhile, during my son's dalliance with AH he jumped in and got 10-12% hit rates going after fighters...in his first MONTH. He instinctually developed the lag roll maneuver in his second month -- "hey dad, look at this cool move!" Grrrrr. :lol
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How do you know what your plane is capable of unless you really push it. Too many never learn their plane of choice. .....
See - there ya go <shrug> making assumtions that are based on your insinuation of lack of knowledge of someone you know nothing about.
Some might take that at the very least as or rude and insulting...but who am I to put words in your mouth - you do that exceedingly well wihout my help.
I'll just agree to disagree about your premise and leave it at that - I suspect tho I and others won't be afforded the same consideration.
....cheers eh! :D
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Very good post guys, real good advise and information I need to employee
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Meanwhile, during my son's dalliance with AH he jumped in and got 10-12% hit rates going after fighters...in his first MONTH. He instinctually developed the lag roll maneuver in his second month -- "hey dad, look at this cool move!" Grrrrr. :lol
:rofl :aok.
No getting around natural ability.
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See - there ya go <shrug> making assumtions that are based on your insinuation of lack of knowledge of someone you know nothing about.
Some might take that at the very least as or rude and insulting...but who am I to put words in your mouth - you do that exceedingly well wihout my help.
I'll just agree to disagree about your premise and leave it at that - I suspect tho I and others won't be afforded the same consideration.
....cheers eh! :D
:lol
Not assuming anything.
Going back to the OP's post I can tell you that this is fine for someone new. Might get a little boring after a very short while. Also since they never push the plane or themselves it is highly unlikely they will improve very much.
If someone takes that as insulting then they can easily do something about it. They can push their plane and theirself.................. they will probably be surprised.
It's not like anyone is more special than anyone else. Anyone can get out there and press the issue with plane and self. Any age , any plane. It is fairly easy to see who does and who doesn't.
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i think shuffler has the right of it :aok
do people like to be called "timid" no, but if that's how they play well then they are "timid" plain and simple.
and if you fly the way the OP suggests then you would be timid and never achieve a better understanding of ACM, and or what your plane of choice can do.
trust me "lone wolf" has been my "style" since 04, it is fun and rewarding even if I lose, heck I would rather lose a great fight then pick 10 cons any friggin day :aok
that's the one thing I can never understand, in this Game about "Air combat" why there is so much "timidness".
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I always get amused at the guys who banter the word "timid" around under these circumstances. It's the standard MO of those who don't approve of those who don't fly around in circles. What really amuses me is that many of these people get less kills per time than me. If the described style is timid how is it I get as many or more kills per time than the brave and heroic circlers?
Their pat answer: "Well you may get more kills but I get in more fights."
Oh really? Kills per hour is hard stat. How are these people quantifying that they get in more fights? answer: they aren't. They're just saying it to make themselves feel better because they are circlers! Circlers are noble, brave souls whereas a guy like me who flies often alone and into the horde is a base coward....
I broke into flight sims in the ultimate circler: the spitfire. I can tell you that you can fly around timidly in any plane, in any style and get 2 or 3 kills per hour and never die. With the exception of the extremes, "timid" can be applied to any plane or flying style.
As for SA. Well it takes as much SA to fly solo in a furball as it does in a pack of circlers.
If you're having fun, do it.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3653/3407968581_84841ede27_o.png)
this thread makes Ozzy Sad ...
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Shuffler is a melee fighter, brawler, and he sees skill and improvement only in melee, being aggressive, dealing and receiving blows. Good for him :x
What he fails to see is that some others may find hunting, cleanly and quickly executed kills more interesting, even maybe more demanding, and can find ways to improve their own style. Surely us "timid" ones will also get better, but not in the way he appreciates, and we DO have fun doing it :neener:
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I always get amused at the guys who banter the word "timid" around under these circumstances. It's the standard MO of those who don't approve of those who don't fly around in circles. What really amuses me is that many of these people get less kills per time than me. If the described style is timid how is it I get as many or more kills per time than the brave and heroic circlers?
Their pat answer: "Well you may get more kills but I get in more fights."
Oh really? Kills per hour is hard stat. How are these people quantifying that they get in more fights? answer: they aren't. They're just saying it to make themselves feel better because they are circlers! Circlers are noble, brave souls whereas a guy like me who flies often alone and into the horde is a base coward....
I broke into flight sims in the ultimate circler: the spitfire. I can tell you that you can fly around timidly in any plane, in any style and get 2 or 3 kills per hour and never die. With the exception of the extremes, "timid" can be applied to any plane or flying style.
As for SA. Well it takes as much SA to fly solo in a furball as it does in a pack of circlers.
If you're having fun, do it.
I like ya Steve but I definitely don't like your playing "style", the BnZ, to me equals boring,(which I would never rag on ya for) and you get more killz an hour then most, because you are an aggressive BnZer and a great shot!!!
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Shuffler is a melee fighter, brawler, and he sees skill and improvement only in melee, being aggressive, dealing and receiving blows. Good for him :x
What he fails to see is that some others may find hunting, cleanly and quickly executed kills more interesting, even maybe more demanding, and can find ways to improve their own style. Surely us "timid" ones will also get better, but not in the way he appreciates, and we DO have fun doing it :neener:
If it is all you want from the game fine. Just don't see how one can not be bored to death doing it. I find it a lot more fun to be at a disadvantage and come out on top.
I guess I don't see anything at all demanding about waiting till I have all the advantages. Just about 100% of the folks in here would have a better score and better k/d if they did that. Sure would be quiet though. All BnZers get kills off folks already in a fight or at a disadvantage.. If you find that demanding... more power to ya.
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I guess I don't see anything at all demanding about waiting till I have all the advantages.
I cant find anywhere in the thread that espouses to this. Just another myth of the circler set.
As if upping, flying around in circles, dying, upping, flying around in circles, dying, upping, flying around in circles then dying somehow requires more skills and is less boring than something else. Gimme a break.
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Shuffler - there is obviously a difference of opinion regarding game play - no doubt a variety of opinions may exist within the player community when you get right down to it. What seems to be taking place here though is that one group (fight group) seems to be constantly calling to task those who do not follow their style of play. With time this could be seen as "bashing".
Your position if said with conviction once or twice then well enough and you have my respect for your views - to continue to beat people up over the issue is inappropriate IMHO - I nor do I feel others feel the need to regularily attack you about your style of play. Defend against it yes - attack you - no.
Perhaps it is time for you (and yours) to set this sort of thing aside across the forum and move on. You've made yourself abundantly clear. Just realize others have different views and are entitled to them.
...just my opinion.
....cheers eh! :D
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I cant find anywhere in the thread that espouses to this. Just another myth of the circler set.
As if upping, flying around in circles, dying, upping, flying around in circles, dying, upping, flying around in circles then dying somehow requires more skills and is less boring than something else. Gimme a break.
Who said I died every time :D That is the point.... test yourself and you'll improve. Otherwise just sit on the fence and watch and never give yourself a chance to improve.
Demanding was in reference to Blauk's post.
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Shuffler - there is obviously a difference of opinion regarding game play - no doubt a variety of opinions may exist within the player community when you get right down to it. What seems to be taking place here though is that one group (fight group) seems to be constantly calling to task those who do not follow their style of play. With time this could be seen as "bashing".
Your position if said with conviction once or twice then well enough and you have my respect for your views - to continue to beat people up over the issue is inappropriate IMHO - I nor do I feel others feel the need to regularily attack you about your style of play. Defend against it yes - attack you - no.
Perhaps it is time for you (and yours) to set this sort of thing aside across the forum and move on. You've made yourself abundantly clear. Just realize others have different views and are entitled to them.
...just my opinion.
....cheers eh! :D
Not beating anyone up. Just trying to state it in a fashion where some of the others can get a handle on what I mean.
I did not start the thread. I was only posting in regards to someone espousing timorous flying. The information was great for someone new. I was just saying to improve they will one day need to get their hands dirty.
I do not care which way you want to fly. Some folks just like GVs... some C47s. To each his own. If they ever want to get better at fighting though... they'll have to take the bull by the horns.
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My post was simply about surviving the reality of the MA environment and avoiding HOs and getting gangbanged. In it I encouraged finding a "good 1v1 fight" and how to create one safely. I also said it was for newer players. The fact remains however that it is your lack of SA and E management that allows for these things to happen. I'm not sure if some of the anger about the post is coming from the fact people don't want to accept they are at fault or the reality of the MA itself.
Regardless, the points Steve and I made are true. These are realities especially if you fly alone and don't have a squadmate(s) around to coordinate with. When you fly alone in the MA and want to survive, you need to be more calculating in your playstyle. The MA is not the DA. At least if you follow the tips given you have a chance to get a decent 1v1. There is no tip given that is not true to the original post, which overall is a statement that if you get HO'd, gangbanged, or picked in the MA it's your own fault.
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My post was simply about surviving the reality of the MA environment and avoiding HOs and getting gangbanged. In it I encouraged finding a "good 1v1 fight" and how to create one safely. I also said it was for newer players. The fact remains however that it is your lack of SA and E management that allows for these things to happen. I'm not sure if some of the anger about the post is coming from the fact people don't want to accept they are at fault or the reality of the MA itself.
Regardless, the points Steve and I made are true. These are realities especially if you fly alone and don't have a squadmate(s) around to coordinate with. When you fly alone in the MA and want to survive, you need to be more calculating in your playstyle. The MA is not the DA. At least if you follow the tips given you have a chance to get a decent 1v1. There is no tip given that is not true to the original post, which overall is a statement that if you get HO'd, gangbanged, or picked in the MA it's your own fault.
I don't think anyone here is angry. I think the reason some here may seem angry is they have been here for awhile and still fly that way. As I already stated it is fine for a new individual. If others want to continue that way that is fine too. I personally am here for the fight and search out others with the same idea. If on some rare occassion I run across one of the individuals that likes to have all the advantages... good luck and I hope he keeps his E well. I'll be down here waiting.
I'm part of a decent squad yet I fly alone quite a bit. I enjoy going into a fray with the competitor or competitors having all the advantages and then coming out the victor after a good fight. Even if I don't make it out... if the fight was good then I won... we all won.
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I enjoy both styles about the same. Am I the only one? In one night, sometimes in one base to base fight I may do both several times. Each has it's own set of strategies and fun. I think we all agree that purely timid flying is gay, but that is not what the OP and Steve are condoning from what I see.
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If on some rare occassion I run across one of the individuals that likes to have all the advantages...
You made a blanket statement that this is what we are advocating in this thread, which is wrong.
Also, since when is having E in a horde "having all the advantages" ?
I think the reason some here may seem angry is they have been here for awhile and still fly that way.
Who still flies what way?
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that circling aorund on the deck somehow requires more skill than some other way of flying. This amuses me. You imagine yourself somehow more enlightened and noble because you fly in circles; as if this is any harder to do than what some others do. I really hope you don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I also hope this doesn't crush you emotionally but, here goes: turning in circles requires no more skill than BnZ fighting.
For me personally, I have no problem getting into a circles fight if the opportunity presents it, even against you 38 sticks... who has all the advantages then? The difference is, I don't need to put down one style of play to make myself feel superior. It's all the same.
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How about we go with "Meek" for those in this thread apparently feeling a little guilty :D
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How about we go with "Meek" for those in this thread apparently feeling a little guilty :D
Meek, timid, it's all the same. I'd call any stick with more than a few months experience who averages 4 or 5 kills an hour to be very timid... or meek if you prefer.
If he's furballing and getting kills at such an anemic rate, he's got to be timid. It's very easy to get very high kills per hour just turning in circles til you die. There's no time wasted RTB'ing. :aok
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3653/3407968581_84841ede27_o.png)
this thread makes Ozzy Sad ...
:) instantly thought of Boelke and his (pretty definitive) rules when I read the OP.
Good post Nimble, and nice followup from Steve too. :aok
as for the rest of it ... well no surprise "timid" had been thrown about. for me it isnt "all about the fight", theres a big element of immersion too, which usually means trying to land safe. but this can change every sortie, if i'm winging then my wingman landing alive is #1 priority and any kills we get are a bonus, any epic fights a big bonus. other sorties may be last ditch defenses where stopping the enemy is the priority and the chances of surviving very slim.
basically if you have 300 players in the air, you have 300 different games being played. this is one of the great things about AH, the gameplay is so open ended that it can accommodate everyone from furballing quake style players in LA7s to the guys who are prepared to take B17s to historic alts on 2h strat bombing missions. pretty cool huh? :)
edit:
I'd call any stick with more than a few months experience who averages 4 or 5 kills an hour to be very timid... or meek if you prefer.
... or perhaps someone who doesnt get to fly at peak US time. lies, damn lies, and statistics ;)
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I enjoy both styles about the same. Am I the only one? In one night, sometimes in one base to base fight I may do both several times. Each has it's own set of strategies and fun. I think we all agree that purely timid flying is gay, but that is not what the OP and Steve are condoning from what I see.
Absolutely! Finding a good 1v1 or even 2v1 that I can work stalls speeds and angles is my favorite thing to do in the game. Unfortunately in the MA, chances are you will get picked. It sucks to be coming off the high of a great 1v1 just to end up in the tower. I don't think anyone who knows me would say I'm afraid of a good 1v1, I just really, really, really hate it when JimJoeBobJr kills me when in any other circumstance he'd be dead after the first merge. I don't however blame said JimJoeBobJr for killing me, because it was my lack of macro SA that allowed for it. So now I try to create my own 1v1s away from the horde. It works out much better.
Maybe I titled my post badly, maybe not. I still think the ideas presented by myself and Steve remain true to the title.
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... or perhaps someone who doesnt get to fly at peak US time. lies, damn lies, and statistics ;)
Another reason to hate the big maps!
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You made a blanket statement that this is what we are advocating in this thread, which is wrong.
Also, since when is having E in a horde "having all the advantages" ?
Who still flies what way?
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that circling aorund on the deck somehow requires more skill than some other way of flying. This amuses me. You imagine yourself somehow more enlightened and noble because you fly in circles; as if this is any harder to do than what some others do. I really hope you don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I also hope this doesn't crush you emotionally but, here goes: turning in circles requires no more skill than BnZ fighting.
For me personally, I have no problem getting into a circles fight if the opportunity presents it, even against you 38 sticks... who has all the advantages then? The difference is, I don't need to put down one style of play to make myself feel superior. It's all the same.
:rofl You should read what I posted. Then take a few minutes to let it sink in. Then look at what you posted.
Oh and lose the superiority/ inferiority complex.
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Nimble I looked up the definition of Alt-monkey.
1) Anyone flying 2k higher than EZRhino
that would include rook or bish........lol
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Meek, timid, it's all the same. I'd call any stick with more than a few months experience who averages 4 or 5 kills an hour to be very timid... or meek if you prefer.
If he's furballing and getting kills at such an anemic rate, he's got to be timid. It's very easy to get very high kills per hour just turning in circles til you die. There's no time wasted RTB'ing. :aok
My comment was directed at those offended by the word timid, thus the :D Sheesh
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Oh and lose the superiority/ inferiority complex.
You're the one claiming one style of play requires more SA or skill than the other.
For anyone else it is just plain timid flying.... and you won't get any better.
How do you know what your plane is capable of unless you really push it.
As if yank and bankers are the only ones "who push it"
If you consistently place yourself in the middle of a furball, your situational awareness will get better and better.
Perhaps you should take your own advice.
I read your posts and all I saw is some guy who seems to think his style of play is somehow better than another. as I've said in this thread: it's all the same.
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My comment was directed at those offended by the word timid, thus the :D Sheesh
I think the word is used too broadly by the holier-than-thou types like Shuffler.
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Some comments on the initial OP post - Unless a few squaddies are on I frequently fly solo : some rules I try to keep - I fly ONLY a FW190A8 - because it is a challenge.
1. rarely if ever take off from CAPed/front line field (I do not mind long flights to action - always watching History Chnl - gives me time heheheh)
2. altitude altitude altitude!! minimum 15k+
3. pay attention to Radar Bar/Flight dar
4. full tanks AND DT - allows long flights
5. frequently when presented with a lower distant furball I will dive well before icon range to co alt or just below their level - a distant low 190 is rarely seen as a major threat by many furballers - little do they know I'm topped up with E and in a few seconds will be up their six - destroy them with one overpowering cannon burst and be off into the sky to reset
6.....did I mention altitude???
7. I try to work a furball top down also paying attention to the flight characteristics of closest cons - ie co-alt La's will get my attention before lower zekes do.
8. SA SA SA!!!
9. judge carefully close cons E state and incoming ones too - there is a time to cut and reset in a 190 if you want to live - none of this fight till ya die crap.
10. always return your bird to the crew chief who loaned it to you
11. pay attention to friendly activities at enemy fields - be supportive
12 never fear pony boys especially low on the deck - they don't know which end is up
13. I take the shot of anyone silly enough to put themselves in front of my cannon - one 30mm will indeed ruin their day!!!
There's a bunch more regarding aircraft manauvers...but then you'll likely kill me easier- can't have that eh!
Just a few of the things that work for me.
...cheers eh! :D
PS - oh ya - of ALL the planes I find P38's burn the prettiest!! Lovely!!!
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12 never fear pony boys especially low on the deck - they don't know which end is up
This wouldn't be funny if it wasn't largely true. :lol
This works in my favor though. I have regular encounters where the guy expects me to run or be an easy kill, I think this surprise factor works to my advantage.
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"Timid" covers it, however that refers to the person. Maybe the correct term should be timorous as I referring to their style of flight.
Cautious is much more accurate.
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I don't get the 'timid' comment.
You don't learn much by being 'uncautious' and getting shot down before your gear is up or heading into a furball for 30 seconds of combat until you get picked off.
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I don't get the 'timid' comment.
You don't learn much by being 'uncautious' and getting shot down before your gear is up or heading into a furball for 30 seconds of combat until you get picked off.
My definition of that word is:
1. Refusing to engage when at equal alt, E, speed, etc.
2. disengage when you lose an advantage and extend a great distance only to pick you while you fight another.
3. Refuse a 1v1, but wait until friends show up.
That's my opinion. You learn from experience and gain confidence. If you don't have confidence, you do one or all three above.
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You are much more dangerous at 8k and 400 mph than you are at 12k and 150 mph.
I agree with much of your advice, but can't help pointing out that a fighter doing 150 mph @ 12k will very quickly become a fighter doing 400 mph at 8k.... Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
My regards,
Widewing
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Then try a different qualifier. You say "timid" and its instantly taken as belittling to those that choose to fly that way.
How about lacking 'lacking testical fortitude'? It's a far more apt description than timid.
ack-ack
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My definition of that word is:
1. Refusing to engage when at equal alt, E, speed, etc.
2. disengage when you lose an advantage and extend a great distance only to pick you while you fight another.
3. Refuse a 1v1, but wait until friends show up.
That's my opinion. You learn from experience and gain confidence. If you don't have confidence, you do one or all three above.
I agree, that is timid. While it might be more on the side of "smart" for planes such as the A-20G, and possibly the Mossie, for almost anything but a bomber, that is too timid. Waiting for help with a fair 1v1 fight is stupid in my opinion.
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I agree with much of your advice, but can't help pointing out that a fighter doing 150 mph @ 12k will very quickly become a fighter doing 400 mph at 8k.... Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
My regards,
Widewing
Not immediately, which is what I was thinking of(I wasn't really clear, sorry). I'm sure a guy at 15K would much rather bounce the slow guy at 12K than the fast guy at 8K. The fast guy has a lot more options.
I understand what you mean though, as far as total E being about the same. :salute
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How about lacking 'lacking testical fortitude'? It's a far more apt description than timid.
ack-ack
Testicular?
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I always get amused at the guys who banter the word "timid" around under these circumstances.
To me the 'timid' pilot is the one that just doesn't want to fight, not how they fight. The player that runs from an enagement and then only comes back into the fight to pick when the other player is already engaged in another fight is an example of a timid pilot. The pilot that comes in on the merge with guns firing and then runs for home or help, that's another example of a timid pilot. Basically, any enagement that the player avoids that may result in the player being shot down.
Personally, I don't care if you BnZ, E fight or angles fight as long as you fight and not wuss out. I never understood why players that are so afraid of a fight play a PvP centric game.
ack-ack
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Not immediately, which is what I was thinking of(I wasn't really clear, sorry). I'm sure a guy at 15K would much rather bounce the slow guy at 12K than the fast guy at 8K. The fast guy has a lot more options.
I understand what you mean though, as far as total E being about the same. :salute
Make much more sense to me now.. :aok
My regards,
Widewing
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On a side note, thanks for the 6 calls last night ack-ack. We sure had our big higher alt planes down in the rats nest for a bit last night.
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I never realized how immature steve is.... just too funny.
:rofl
I'll tell you steve... if your SA is bad then stay high, stay fast, and look for those already commited. Pretty easy stuff there. That is why nimble posted this to the new folks.
Your complex reminds me of the kid is a leather jacket and sunglasses... sitting on his tricycle.
Geesh get over it. You obviously have not read what I posted. :rofl
Oh yeah one other thing... score means nothing here in AH. :cheers:
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Some comments on the initial OP post - Unless a few squaddies are on I frequently fly solo : some rules I try to keep - I fly ONLY a FW190A8 - because it is a challenge.
1. rarely if ever take off from CAPed/front line field (I do not mind long flights to action - always watching History Chnl - gives me time heheheh)
2. altitude altitude altitude!! minimum 15k+
3. pay attention to Radar Bar/Flight dar
4. full tanks AND DT - allows long flights
5. frequently when presented with a lower distant furball I will dive well before icon range to co alt or just below their level - a distant low 190 is rarely seen as a major threat by many furballers - little do they know I'm topped up with E and in a few seconds will be up their six - destroy them with one overpowering cannon burst and be off into the sky to reset
6.....did I mention altitude???
7. I try to work a furball top down also paying attention to the flight characteristics of closest cons - ie co-alt La's will get my attention before lower zekes do.
8. SA SA SA!!!
9. judge carefully close cons E state and incoming ones too - there is a time to cut and reset in a 190 if you want to live - none of this fight till ya die crap.
10. always return your bird to the crew chief who loaned it to you
11. pay attention to friendly activities at enemy fields - be supportive
12 never fear pony boys especially low on the deck - they don't know which end is up
13. I take the shot of anyone silly enough to put themselves in front of my cannon - one 30mm will indeed ruin their day!!!
There's a bunch more regarding aircraft manauvers...but then you'll likely kill me easier- can't have that eh!
Just a few of the things that work for me.
...cheers eh! :D
PS - oh ya - of ALL the planes I find P38's burn the prettiest!! Lovely!!!
HAHAHA Good post :aok
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To me the 'timid' pilot is the one that just doesn't want to fight, not how they fight. The player that runs from an enagement and then only comes back into the fight to pick when the other player is already engaged in another fight is an example of a timid pilot. The pilot that comes in on the merge with guns firing and then runs for home or help, that's another example of a timid pilot. Basically, any enagement that the player avoids that may result in the player being shot down.
ack-ack
You bet
I tend to bristle when someone equates E fighting or BnZ to timid. I'll grant that there are guys who sit on a perch and will not engage in anything that you or I'd consider a fight. These guys certainly are timid.
My perception of Shuffler's posts is that he thinks anyone who fights in the vert "BnZ" is timid and I take umbrage at that.
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There is where you missed it completely.
I said they won't fight. You were defending that type play or lack thereof. You were also saying that folks that fight are the same way... made absolutely no sense.
Your chatting privs are suspended for 2 seconds.
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I never realized how immature steve is.... just too funny.
:rofl
I'll tell you steve... if your SA is bad then stay high, stay fast, and look for those already commited. Pretty easy stuff there. That is why nimble posted this to the new folks.
Your complex reminds me of the kid is a leather jacket and sunglasses... sitting on his tricycle.
Geesh get over it. You obviously have not read what I posted. :rofl
Oh yeah one other thing... score means nothing here in AH. :cheers:
You personal attacks aside(what took you so long?) Both my post and the OP's post make mention of the need for Good SA so you are in no position to talk about who read what. Once again you put your style of play as somehow better than another. To be successful in either, you have to possess much of the same skill set.
I'll break it to you again, and as gently as I can: Circle fighting requires no more skill or SA than E fighting.
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lol well you don't have to worry since I never see you in the game. I don't fly that high.
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lol well you don't have to worry since I never see you in the game. I don't fly that high.
LOL. Keep taking shots from your uninformed position. This way, I won't have to put forth any effort to make you look foolish, you'll do it all on your own. :aok
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It depends on what your flying. If your flying an N1K and won't TnB anyone and insist on BnZing or slashing by a 400+ mph, then yes, they are timid. But a P-51 refusing to turnfight a zeke isn't timid.
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LOL. Keep taking shots from your uninformed position. This way, I won't have to put forth any effort to make you look foolish, you'll do it all on your own. :aok
There you go... keep looking down on us. You have to be used to that by now. :neener:
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I'm ignorant :neener:
I know.
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I know.
Lay on the couch and talk to this guy :old:
He can help you.
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Lay on the couch and talk to this guy :old:
He can help you.
dude you're nonsensical.
I'll keep having fun in the game, you go ahead and tell others they aren't having fun. :lol
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I'll do you one better nimble. Count the red guys, don't count the green guys, when you're figuring the odds. Unless there is alot more green than red, then count your chances of being the one to bag the red guy as nil and move on.
In my experience, it is just too darn hard for multiples with an E advantage to use you for bnz target practice with little chance of returning the favor. Then there is also the fact that no MA crowd is made up of one type...basically you can expect there to be much faster AND much more maneuverable craft in every crowd just salivating to put their one-two on you.
When I win EVERY 1v1 with whoever in whatever, then I'll deliberately start hunting 1v2s and greater. :devil
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dude you're nonsensical.
I'll keep having fun in the game, you go ahead and tell others they aren't having fun. :lol
HAHA and you call me nonsensical.... most of your posts here have been offbase. All because your lack of reading other's posts.
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When I win EVERY 1v1 with whoever in whatever, then I'll deliberately start hunting 1v2s and greater. :devil
Well put.
Steve, you're never going to get anywhere with him.
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HAHA and you call me nonsensical.... most of your posts here have been offbase. All because your lack of reading other's posts.
Well now you're talking in circles, just how you fly. :lol
I am pretty sure why you put down anyone who doesn't fly in circles. By telling the world that it's not the kills, it's the fights, and by telling them that turning in circles is so much better than BnZ, you've got a built in excuse for your frequent deaths and infrequent kills in the game. You can go straight to the: "I was turnfighting and got picked" book of excuses. WTG.
Again, you should take your own advice: Score doesn't matter. Having fun matters. Keep judging, I'll keep having fun. :aok
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I'll do you one better nimble. Count the red guys, don't count the green guys, when you're figuring the odds. Unless there is alot more green than red, then count your chances of being the one to bag the red guy as nil and move on.
In my experience, it is just too darn hard for multiples with an E advantage to use you for bnz target practice with little chance of returning the favor. Then there is also the fact that no MA crowd is made up of one type...basically you can expect there to be much faster AND much more maneuverable craft in every crowd just salivating to put their one-two on you.
When I win EVERY 1v1 with whoever in whatever, then I'll deliberately start hunting 1v2s and greater. :devil
TBH being outnumbered doesn't bother me if I have some E. I often feint a pass/dive on one "juicy" target like a low p47, 110, or other ride that people normally pick out as an easy kill when I am really after a dangerous plane to me(109, la7, spit16, p51). I always target the planes that can build E quickly or have a high top end speed first, starting with the one with the most stored/kinetic E first. This is where the seperation comes into play I talk about originally. I'll lead that target away from the pack and engage in a 1v1 if possible.
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What a good thread!!
I often wonder what the purpose of the game is and my conclusion is a degree of immersion and suspense of reality.
If I wanted to test my hand eye co-ordination I would do something else on line.
Nimble's OP and Steve's replies really struck a chord and ring very true.
I am probably the worst fighter pilot in my squad and think a lot as to why the rest of the prawns (esp. Gorkle & FTJR) rack up kill after kill after kill and only stop to re-arm - I've seen the same thing with Steve.
It's patience - not lack or oversupply of skill - just patience. If the shot's not there it doesn't get taken and if the kill doesn't happen the first time, losses are cut, alt is gained and the work begins anew.
And that's a common thread amongst "top sticks", very rarely do you go into fight with them and they haven't got things in their favour (that's not sour grapes by the way). They evaluate their options and make an informed decision and engage, otherwise they truck off and re-evaluate the next position and enemy.
I would use some adjectives to describe this, but certainly timid doesn't come to mind. Intelligent and sensible does. They take as much luck out of the fight and put it into a logical frame with a few good decisions to effect an outcome. That's not timid.
Anyway - good thread.
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2. altitude altitude altitude!! minimum 15k+
:rofl :rofl
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Threeup,
Thanks for the positive response. I just hope that the tips listed help you out in the MA!
EDIT: is it possible to get the OP unlocked from editting so I can add Steve's excellent additions to the original?
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You bet
I tend to bristle when someone equates E fighting or BnZ to timid. I'll grant that there are guys who sit on a perch and will not engage in anything that you or I'd consider a fight. These guys certainly are timid.
TBH being outnumbered doesn't bother me if I have some E. I often feint a pass/dive on one "juicy" target like a low p47, 110, or other ride that people normally pick out as an easy kill when I am really after a dangerous plane to me(109, la7, spit16, p51). I always target the planes that can build E quickly or have a high top end speed first, starting with the one with the most stored/kinetic E first. This is where the seperation comes into play I talk about originally. I'll lead that target away from the pack and engage in a 1v1 if possible.
Same. A few days ago I encountered 5 members of a squadron in the MW arena all flying together as a group about 2,000 to 3,000ft below me. Since they were flying as a group and I knew that if I decided to concentrate on one of them and engage in an angles fight with that player the other four would then attack me and I'd find myself in a 5v1 angles (turn) fight that I couldn't possibly win. Instead, I used my altitude and potential energy advantage to my favor and would dance on their heads, forcing them to break and burn whatever energy they had to set up my next attack. This resulted in me shooting down all five and one of them sending me PMs calling me a timid cherry picker because I used BnZ attacks against all of them in a fight that lasted no more than 6 minutes instead of engaging in a flat turn fight against them all at the same time.
In situations like the above, I like to use the story of the old bull and the young bull as an example of my fighting style. Why go rushing down to the herd of jerseys (angles fight) and bag one when I can saunter (BnZ or E fight) and bag them all?
There was also this one player in the MW arena that used to only fly the Hurricane IIc and to him, anyone that didn't flat turn fight him (regardless of what plane you were in) was a timid pilot that didn't know how to turn fight. He'd get upset when he ran into me because I wouldn't get into a luftberry fight with him, instead using vertical turns to angles fight. Seriously, I'm in a P-38J and he's in a Hurricane IIc and he expects me to try and flat turn with a plane that will easily out turn mine? He's scream "TIMID BNZER!" each time I sent his plane down in flames, regardless of the fact that I was using vertical turns instead of flat turns to angles (turn) fight and not BnZ maneuvers. I miss fireplug sometimes.
ack-ack
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I miss fireplug sometimes.
:rofl Way to sneak that in there. I thought that's who you were talking about. Him or Crossbns
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.............In situations like the above, I like to use the story of the old bull and the young bull as an example of my fighting style. Why go rushing down to the herd of jerseys (angles fight) and bag one when I can saunter (BnZ or E fight) and bag them all...............
ack-ack
:aok
Truer words - fight to your machines strengths and against the enemies weaknesses - that is NOT timid - that is SMART!!
....cheers eh! :D
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Using the plane's strengths is ok sometimes for me. Like when I jump in a Tempest and go huntin. But normal day to day flying I like to find a good fight. Take yesterday for example. I flew a P40E toward an enemy base. I was about 10k and looked down and saw 100Huntr engaged with a 109. He looked to be in trouble so I asked if he needed help. He didnt answer so I figured he was too busy or something. I dove down to distract the 109 and pulled back up. This 109 had just survived a 2 on 1 (I saw him kill Chewi just before I got near) and I didnt want to spoil the fight. So I asked again saying if he didnt respond Id stay out. He didnt respond and shortly after Huntr blew up.
So now I dove to the deck. Ya, I had alt and E over the 109, but I prefer evening out the fight. The 109 which showed a 109K icon, suddenly changed to a 109F. Was weird. We started fighting and fought for a real long time enjoying a great 1 on 1. The P40E vs 109F is THE favorite matchup for me in the game. The 109F has the better engine..alot like the SPit9 in my opinion and can stay nose up better. He tagged me a couple times and luckily for me he had no cannon. This went on for Id say 10 minutes. Best fight in ages. Then as expected a Spit showed up and I had 2 to fight for awile. Finally the spit landed some cannon shots and crippled me. Then some friendlies showed up as I went in.
Kungfu was the 109F. These are the opponents I play the game for. Alot of guys are good, but its how someone fights that makes the difference for me. I'll remember that fight for a long time. The times I up a Tempest get kills and rtb are forgotten as soon as I replane.
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:aok
Truer words - fight to your machines strengths and against the enemies weaknesses - that is NOT timid - that is SMART!!
....cheers eh! :D
Of course, it should be pointed out, that generally speaking there are only two strengths you can have over an enemy's machine that decide things. Turn performance or energy performance (Usually thrust/weight, but the Ta-152 is an interesting exception...good energy performance through sheer retention under Gs.). Eh, and you can divide turn performance into rate and radius in the dissimilar matchups where one has a decided advantage in one and a decided disadvantage in the other, if you want to split hairs.
The third of the "Holy Trinity" of performance advantages, top speed, is, lets face it, useful simply for forcing the engagement when the opponent is at a disadvantage/obviously incompetent and disengaging when he is not. Since being faster gives you the potential to "kill sometimes and *always* live", no wonder it is the one most favored by real pilots, but it must be realized that sim pilots have different wants in the plane they are flying and different expectations out of their opponents...hence the Runstang/Run90/Runtard appellations.
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That's pretty much how I fly in the MA except I don't fly a fast plane (F6F).
When I come up against you, it sure seems fast Greebo . You make that F6 do things few others' can do. I should've filmed last nights encounter and learned from you...it was a thing of beauty! :salute
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10. always return your bird to the crew chief who loaned it to you
I don't want my crew chief to be bored which is why I always try to salvage at least one of two parts of the wreck before I hike back home. That way I figure by the end of the week he'll have a good "weekend project" to keep him entertained, putting all the parts back together. :)
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Boyd called it "tigers vs. p**sies" and like many things he projected this well beyond ACM ...
but there is a balance in the best ...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/40/Boelckeo.JPG)
how much of this guy ...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Pappy_Boyington.jpg/451px-Pappy_Boyington.jpg)
do you balance with this guy?
what is your Boe/Boy ratio ???
+S+
t
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Wow you're really implying Boelcke was a p**sy? :o
Papy wouldnt have survived as long as he did, or with so much success if he wasnt following Boelcke's dicta to a large degree. you're comparing apples to apples there.
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not my words, read the book/s, i gave the source.
i am just using the two pilots shown as symbols of ("smart" flying / "aggressive" flying)
and the whole point is that a really good pilot needs to be both smart and aggressive ...
if you need to start a fight choose another poster as this issue although interesting is not something i would involve myself in drama over.
t
Wow you're really implying Boelcke was a p**sy? :o
Papy wouldnt have survived as long as he did, or with so much success if he wasnt following Boelcke's dicta to a large degree. you're comparing apples to apples there.
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(http://FilthsHangar.homestead.com/1
941.jpg)
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Well there's 10 minutes of reading time I won't get back :)
Fly however the heck you want to fly. Understand the key point here. There is absolutely no risk in this game outside of dying from a heart attack from lack of circulation due to sitting at the computer too long or getting shot by your significant other who is tired of looking at the side of your head for days on end.
Steve, you and I have run into each other many a time in the MA. More often then not, you are above me in your 51D as you like it, and me below you in my 38G as I like it. The challenge for me is to try and counter and defeat your advantage. Sometimes I do, more often then not, I don't. It's what is fun to me.
I look a the title of this thread. 'surviving the MA lonewolf". Not once in all these years of cartoon flying have I not survived. In itself the title is misleading. As always it's one guy's opinion on the way to 'fly' in the arenas. Then we get the Dicta Boelcke bit etc. Folks start confusing real life air combat with cartoon land combat. If that's how you choose to fly it, so be it, but to preach it as 'the way" is silly.
I understand where Shuff is coming from. These days I get very little time for cartoon combat in my 38G of my doom. When I do fly, I don't care to climb high. I just get myself a few K and wander towards the fight. I know someone will oblige me :)
And in thinking about it, the guys up high make a living off guys like me, and I don't mean the bad guys. I would bet that if you totaled up over the years the number of my deaths, to the number of deaths of the 6 guys shooting at me at the time I died in the crowd, the ratio would be off the charts in terms of their deaths. You guys up high need me drawing cons for ya so you can shoot em :)
In the end there is no losing in AH for me, as long as I'm having fun, and thankfully when I do get to fly, that tends to be the case.
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Well there's 10 minutes of reading time I won't get back :)
Fly however the heck you want to fly. Understand the key point here. There is absolutely no risk in this game outside of dying from a heart attack from lack of circulation due to sitting at the computer too long or getting shot by your significant other who is tired of looking at the side of your head for days on end.
Steve, you and I have run into each other many a time in the MA. More often then not, you are above me in your 51D as you like it, and me below you in my 38G as I like it. The challenge for me is to try and counter and defeat your advantage. Sometimes I do, more often then not, I don't. It's what is fun to me.
I look a the title of this thread. 'surviving the MA lonewolf". Not once in all these years of cartoon flying have I not survived. In itself the title is misleading. As always it's one guy's opinion on the way to 'fly' in the arenas. Then we get the Dicta Boelcke bit etc. Folks start confusing real life air combat with cartoon land combat. If that's how you choose to fly it, so be it, but to preach it as 'the way" is silly.
I understand where Shuff is coming from. These days I get very little time for cartoon combat in my 38G of my doom. When I do fly, I don't care to climb high. I just get myself a few K and wander towards the fight. I know someone will oblige me :)
And in thinking about it, the guys up high make a living off guys like me, and I don't mean the bad guys. I would bet that if you totaled up over the years the number of my deaths, to the number of deaths of the 6 guys shooting at me at the time I died in the crowd, the ratio would be off the charts in terms of their deaths. You guys up high need me drawing cons for ya so you can shoot em :)
In the end there is no losing in AH for me, as long as I'm having fun, and thankfully when I do get to fly, that tends to be the case.
+1
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Well there's 10 minutes of reading time I won't get back :)
Fly however the heck you want to fly. Understand the key point here. There is absolutely no risk in this game outside of dying from a heart attack from lack of circulation due to sitting at the computer too long or getting shot by your significant other who is tired of looking at the side of your head for days on end.
Steve, you and I have run into each other many a time in the MA. More often then not, you are above me in your 51D as you like it, and me below you in my 38G as I like it. The challenge for me is to try and counter and defeat your advantage. Sometimes I do, more often then not, I don't. It's what is fun to me.
I understand where Shuff is coming from. These days I get very little time for cartoon combat in my 38G of my doom. When I do fly, I don't care to climb high. I just get myself a few K and wander towards the fight. I know someone will oblige me :)
And in thinking about it, the guys up high make a living off guys like me, and I don't mean the bad guys. I would bet that if you totaled up over the years the number of my deaths, to the number of deaths of the 6 guys shooting at me at the time I died in the crowd, the ratio would be off the charts in terms of their deaths. You guys up high need me drawing cons for ya so you can shoot em :)
In the end there is no losing in AH for me, as long as I'm having fun, and thankfully when I do get to fly, that tends to be the case.
What a great big crock of poo. Hmm where do I start.
I look a the title of this thread. 'surviving the MA lonewolf". Not once in all these years of cartoon flying have I not survived. In itself the title is misleading. As always it's one guy's opinion on the way to 'fly' in the arenas. Then we get the Dicta Boelcke bit etc. Folks start confusing real life air combat with cartoon land combat. If that's how you choose to fly it, so be it, but to preach it as 'the way" is silly.
Nobody preached anything. Some people gave a couple of pointers on their idea of how to get in some fights and maybe make it home when you are alone against numbers. That's it.
Steve, you and I have run into each other many a time in the MA. More often then not, you are above me in your 51D as you like it, and me below you in my 38G as I like it. The challenge for me is to try and counter and defeat your advantage.
About the only way I could get lower than you would be to taxi. I don't fly high, relative to the MA. I typically arrive on site, even against the horde, at around 6-10k. Usually 8k. When I'm higher than you I have E and a faster plane, you have a plane that is better in the vert, turns better, climbs better, and is more lethal. I don't hold all the cards by any means.
I understand where Shuff is coming from too: If you don't fly in circles, you won't learn SA, or improve in the game. LMAO
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Probably going to regret sticking my nose in this thread but here goes anyway...
Unless I am reading Shuf's posts wrong I think he was merely advocating the practice makes perfect, flying in a manner that the OP advocates is certainly improves your chances of surviving in the MA, but if you are a newer player then it also pays to get down and dirty once in awhile and explore the other methods. In the end it will make the player a more rounded, competent cartoon fighter pilot. One isn't any "better" than the other but if someone stays fast and strictly BnZ-ing then they may be hard pressed to handle situations when the tables are turned which can happen in the MA. Conversely if all a new player is doing is upping a Hurricane, Zero, etc. and the idea is to merge then hold the stick back and fly in circles are also the types that I think are more likely to fall victim to ropes and other maneuvers that the E-fighting planes frequently use because they haven't worked on them. It's all part of the learning process.
The OP had good advice, keeping those things in mind will certainly help someone who's stuck flying alone in the MA's. I am also assuming that he's addressing newer players with the post because I think that most people who have been at this awhile have picked up on a lot of those lessons already. Drawing from my own experience when I started AH I flew the P-51 exclusively and I got to a certain point where I was decent in it, then I let Mathman talk me into flying the F6F and it opened up a whole new part of the game for me. In the end I was a better cartoon fighter pilot because I could take the lessons I learned BnZ-ing in the 51 and combine them with the lessons I learned flying the F6F where I suddenly couldn't count on the things that I used to be able to in the 51.
One way is no better than the other, but I think a player should try both. Who knows what they think is fun may change, but you never know if you don't try.
Please keep in mind that I'm using extremes examples, I think most players probably already mix the two different schools of thought.
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You think sitting up there takes a lot of SA? Looking down and watching the planes fight. OK, that is your point of view and you like flying that way.
Some day how about coming down in the fight and trying it out a bit. See how different your SA has to be tracking multiple targets/cons all turning with you. I guarantee if you do... you'll find flying up there much easier tracking tagets all lower than you.
Not saying one is better than the other. Just that your SA down low has to multi-task quite a bit more.
Out in the ballfield..... having 6 balls come at you that you have to catch. Once you do that.... catching one ball will seem like a piece of cake.
The pony turns very well. There are planes that will out turn it but it is not all about turns. There are many planes that out turn a 38 too. We don't just go round and round on the deck. If that is all we did we would be shot down most every time.
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When I'm higher than you I have E and a faster plane, you have a plane that is better in the vert, turns better, climbs better, and is more lethal. I don't hold all the cards by any means.
turns better under 250mph maybe.. climbs better? Never. More lethal? Not more than a 400mph pony.. ;)
I agree with the way you fly Steve, i just do it in a different plane. I do like living to land, and giving a group of 5-10 more planes fighting me solo the fast way back to the tower. Flying into a hoarde at 4k is just frustrating. If everyone would fight you, and not extend through for the next pick.. then.. maybe.
There is a time and place for the 100mph stall buzzing fight, unfortunately, less than more.
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You think sitting up there takes a lot of SA? Looking down and watching the planes fight. OK, that is your point of view and you like flying that way.
Some day how about coming down in the fight and trying it out a bit. See how different your SA has to be tracking multiple targets/cons all turning with you. I guarantee if you do... you'll find flying up there much easier tracking tagets all lower than you.
Not saying one is better than the other. Just that your SA down low has to multi-task quite a bit more.
Out in the ballfield..... having 6 balls come at you that you have to catch. Once you do that.... catching one ball will seem like a piece of cake.
The pony turns very well. There are plane that will out turn it but it is not all about turns. There are many planes that out turn a 38 too. We don't just go round and round on the deck. If that is all we did we would be shot down most every time.
Who said anything about staying "up there"? I advocated flying at 6-10k... uhh that's actually pretty low for MA purposes and I never said anything about staying up there. And I'm talking about flying alone against many opponents while keeping an eye out for more incoming planes and an eye for egress. How would that not require a lot of SA. Go ahead, explain that to me.
The pony does not turn very well. That's a flat out lie. It turns better than the 190's.. and that is pretty much it. That said, I turn fight my pony just about every night I play, even against your superior turning 38.(yep, I lose a few :D )
If you want to have a discussion, comment on what I've typed, not BS that you invent.
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Probably going to regret sticking my nose in this thread but here goes anyway...
The OP had good advice, keeping those things in mind will certainly help someone who's stuck flying alone in the MA's.
As far as I'm concerned that's all we are talking about. I couldn't find anywhere that said this is the only way to fly and you shouldn't try other things.
Lazer, the J and L out climb the pony.... always, not never.
And lethality was strictly applied to gun packages. The 38 is somewhat more lethal.
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Was using the poster child for suck, p38g for those comments. :D
I know my laterwar models are better than yours. :P
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Was using the poster child for suck, p38g for those comments. :D
I know my laterwar models are better than yours. :P
Ahh I understand... I was kind of lumping them together. :)
You're going to hurt Gupp's feelings with that poster child talk. lol
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He kinda has to know it is inferior by now.. :lol
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As far as I'm concerned that's all we are talking about. I couldn't find anywhere that said this is the only way to fly and you shouldn't try other things.
Nor I, it wasn't my intention to imply otherwise. I just know from my own personal experience that sometimes a player can get locked into one part of the game and that ultimately you (generic "you") can short change yourself by not exploring other parts of it. I used to obsess over "living", landing as many sorties as possible getting a high K/D that was what I thought was fun, and as I stated in Nimble's other thread about style of play I still try to land, but I also discovered that I had fun by going into fights outnumbered, in an inferior plane and having to work my butt off to come out the victor. It doesn't happen often but when it does it feels damned good. That's what I find fun now, and I'm having more fun now than how I used to play. It is no more justifiable than someone who flies above the pack and plays more conservatively, but if I hadn't tried both I wouldn't know and I think that's good advice for new players as well.
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Further comment on Lonewolf Survival:
On-the-Deck egress : there frequently comes a time in my 190A8 when I'm out numbered - can't out turn them - spits- zekes - can't out climb them - 109's - can't out accelerate them - P51's/47's - when cornered low and slow in my 190A8 I'll fly LOW - 10'-50' - looking UP at the trees - you'll know when you are there - the ground which looks so smoothly toned will take on a "gravel" look to it - I've found MANY can't handle flying so low without frequently climbing up to 400-500 or so - thereby loosing ground on me and with time allowing me to escape to reset. I make a point of flying around objects - below them - if the enemy wants to follow they usually fly over it - loosing ground - AND lots of times they auger!!! :lol
Something else I've found - if you can keep (through E management) a superior plane on your 6 back at least 800 or so - they frequently loose patience after 30 - 50 seconds of pursuit - <shrug> break off -even tho they could have in a minute or 2 easily caught me - too many of them are of the NOW generation hehehhe
just a few suggestions
....cheers eh!
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He kinda has to know it is inferior by now.. :lol
Are you saying I can blame the plane and not myself? :)
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Are you saying I can blame the plane and not myself? :)
Well.. I dont think I want to fight you flying a SpitVIII... :D
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Who said anything about staying "up there"? I advocated flying at 6-10k... uhh that's actually pretty low for MA purposes and I never said anything about staying up there. And I'm talking about flying alone against many opponents while keeping an eye out for more incoming planes and an eye for egress. How would that not require a lot of SA. Go ahead, explain that to me.
The pony does not turn very well. That's a flat out lie. It turns better than the 190's.. and that is pretty much it. That said, I turn fight my pony just about every night I play, even against your superior turning 38.(yep, I lose a few :D )
If you want to have a discussion, comment on what I've typed, not BS that you invent.
Hey get off my back.... I have a PHD in BS :P
Flying at 6 to 10k "is" considered low in MAs. I agree. It is just considered high to some of us.
I personally just prefer fighting a group of red guys low and enjoying the limping flight back to land knowing I accomplished something.
As for the pony turning.... on the rare occassion when I fly one in the DA it turns very well. Again that is just a difference in our type of flying.
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Further comment on Lonewolf Survival:
On-the-Deck egress : there frequently comes a time in my 190A8 when I'm out numbered - can't out turn them - spits- zekes - can't out climb them - 109's - can't out accelerate them - P51's/47's - when cornered low and slow in my 190A8 I'll fly LOW - 10'-50' - looking UP at the trees - you'll know when you are there - the ground which looks so smoothly toned will take on a "gravel" look to it - I've found MANY can't handle flying so low without frequently climbing up to 400-500 or so - thereby loosing ground on me and with time allowing me to escape to reset. I make a point of flying around objects - below them - if the enemy wants to follow they usually fly over it - loosing ground - AND lots of times they auger!!! :lol
Something else I've found - if you can keep (through E management) a superior plane on your 6 back at least 800 or so - they frequently loose patience after 30 - 50 seconds of pursuit - <shrug> break off -even tho they could have in a minute or 2 easily caught me - too many of them are of the NOW generation hehehhe
just a few suggestions
....cheers eh!
I agree. This goes with what i post regularly about not ever giving up. When you think your about done.. you hear a boom as one of the 5 cons on you augers..... another boom as one rolls past your guns..... then another as you introduce him to your wingman... the tree. Things can change fast when you least expect it. When your prepared (flying low n slow alot) and they are not (they consider alt their friend).
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Hey get off my back.... I have a PHD in BS :P
Flying at 6 to 10k "is" considered low in MAs. I agree. It is just considered high to some of us.
I personally just prefer fighting a group of red guys low and enjoying the limping flight back to land knowing I accomplished something.
As for the pony turning.... on the rare occassion when I fly one in the DA it turns very well. Again that is just a difference in our type of flying.
I love you, man.
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:rofl
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I enjoyed reading this thread. I like the perpendicular attack on the main fight idea in the first post.
I would not waste to much energy worrying about who is more brave because of their game play style.
YOU ARE ALL DWEEBS AND ALWAYS WILL BE!
with that being said...
I am an adrenalin junkie and the highest adrenalin rush i can get from this game occurs when streaking with a high kill tally and no deaths...
but if luck goes against me and that lancaster drone warps into my face, or better yet my own cv puffy flak explodes me as i close in on a bomber about to sink the cv (this happens a lot lol) I resort to a combination of more traditional antics such as blatant sneakiness of shooting unsuspecting dweebs from their low 6 just as i would when trying to survive at all costs before that first death...
then maybe ride a nub typhoons arse dogfighting them in a c47 while an m3 takes their port...
or blatant toolshedding in a b25 duking it out with a 262 for kicks (I survived but they were only crippled and left to rtb)...
or take in an fm2 on the deck and waste a cloud of spitfires with ease after they clobbered my tbm
i tend to gravitate towards being a survivalist after regularly sampling every playstyle from circle dweebing to toolsheddign to generally running amok.
something about the whole trip... there and back again appeals to me...
its an immersion thing.
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I enjoyed reading this thread. I like the perpendicular attack on the main fight idea in the first post.
I would not waste to much energy worrying about who is more brave because of their game play style.
YOU ARE ALL DWEEBS AND ALWAYS WILL BE!
with that being said...
I am an adrenalin junkie and the highest adrenalin rush i can get from this game occurs when streaking with a high kill tally and no deaths...
but if luck goes against me and that lancaster drone warps into my face I resort to a combination of more traditional antics such as blatant sneakiness of shooting unsuspecting dweebs from their low 6 just as i would when trying to survive at all costs before that first death...
then maybe ride a nub typhoons arse dogfighting them in a c47 while an m3 takes their port...
or blatant toolshedding in a b25 duking it out with a 262 for kicks (I survived but they were only crippled and left to rtb)...
or take in an fm2 on the deck and waste a cloud of spitfires with ease.
i tend to gravitate towards being a survivalist after regularly sampling every playstyle from circle dweebing to toolsheddign to generally running amok.
something about the whole trip... there and back again appeals to me...
its an immersion thing.
Fester is always a great fight. I just hate having to take a muscle relaxant afterward so I can remove my hand from the joystick. :lol
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Good thread!
I myself have always tended to gravitate towards Shuffler's view of fighting due to the fact that in the Orange or Blue arenas where I pretty much fly Spits V, VIII & IX exclusively, you do not have the luxury of being able to egress & engage at will. You are forced to either fight your way out of an engagement (meaning kill the con) or make yourself as tough of an opponent to the point that the attacker will break off & egress leaving you the option of doing the same.
You WILL learn in this environment & the side benefit is that you will ALWAYS get into a fight 'cause as soon as the cons realize that you're tooling around in a crate that they believe that they have the advantage over they WILL engage you-guaranteed.
I LIKE it when I am getting jumped!
:D
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spit IX isn't really a "crate". Its a pretty good bird, and I fly it if I'm going to fly a spitfire.
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i find the idea that it takes more skill to kill than it does to not get killed pretty suspect.
there are lots of levels you can operate on in these games.
i prefer to eat and am quite happy to leave the getting eaten to those operating on that level.
+S+
t
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Heres the thing people don't realize...flying, shooting, and situational ASSESSMENT aren't all the same skill.
Success in the MA is more about the latter two than the kind flying skill that can make someone a feared duellist, quite honestly. Even if you are a real hair-afire plunge into a sea-of-red type furballer, your success at that will be largely based on being able to kill that bandit who just made a mistake and got in front of your 3/9 *instantly*, instead of having to chase him around for awhile during which time you get picked.
i find the idea that it takes more skill to kill than it does to not get killed pretty suspect.
there are lots of levels you can operate on in these games.
i prefer to eat and am quite happy to leave the getting eaten to those operating on that level.
+S+
t
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Many times you have to chase an individual around in a furball.. The trick is not getting hit by another in the furball or by a high bird not in the fight coming through picking. Being able to keep reasonable pressure on the chosen con in the middle of the dance floor, all the time staying out of other cons guns that are in close and personal. You don't have seconds to think about your next move in there. Your cartoon flying has to become instinctive. That is what gets my adrenaline pumping.
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Many times you have to chase an individual around in a furball.. The trick is not getting hit by another in the furball or by a high bird not in the fight coming through picking. Being able to keep reasonable pressure on the chosen con in the middle of the dance floor, all the time staying out of other cons guns that are in close and personal. You don't have seconds to think about your next move in there. Your cartoon flying has to become instinctive. That is what gets my adrenaline pumping.
yup, what he said
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A few other nuggets of whizdumb from an age (and player) long past:
Know when so say when. Loners often stick around for "one more burst" to score a kill and that's often what does them in. Be disciplined, don't get your ego wrapped up in it when flying solo, and have faith that the guy you just shot may be a dweeb and crash anyway.
The reverse gang-bang works too. You're cruising along at 20K and see 3 or 4 whatevers heading your direction, climbing out at 12K. The natural thing is to not engage at such bad odds. But ... those 3 or 4 enemas don't expect you attack either. Odds are they see you and think they're safe in a pack, and are back to talking about sheep. So if you do roll in, there's a decent chance that someone in that group isn't paying attention. Few things will tick someone off more than seeing their wingman blow up right in front of them like that (or not being warned of the 190 barreling in at Warp 5).
Watch the enemas and spot the grapes. There are some predictable behaviors that you'll learn to spot over time. Furballers will turn and burn at anything in range. BnZ'ers will do what you expect. But there is another level. For instance, a BnZ'er will often do some recon around a combat area to look for a likely (i.e. wounded) target. They'll go into a shallow climb (to build more alt but keep speed) and will appear to be just cruising along - which they are - looking for something to pounce on. When you see that flight profile, you've found a potential grape. That plane, once he commits to his attack run, will not be paying much attention to what's behind him, because he has so much speed going in. He doesn't know you're stalking him. You can get him two places - one is to wait for his dive and pull in behind as he gets into guns range, the other is to go into a shallow dive and head for where he's going to pull up and regain E.
Be everyone's wingman. As a lone wolf you have no responsibilities to protect anyone else, but that doesn't mean you can't adopt that role on a larger scale. For instance, your countrymen are in a furball below you, even odds, yadda yadda. You're cruising above looking for supper. You will likely be one of the first to see enema reinforcements inbound, since you're not engaged. If you try to engage 3 or 4 or 5 inbounds in a prolonged fight, odds are you die. But ... who says you actually need to engage to be of help? Make one high speed run, and they have to scatter. What does that accomplish? The enema have now burned some E and/or alt plus they're not in a tight pack anymore - plus their arrival at the fight is delayed. Now when these reinforcements engage, you also won't have to worry about they getting up to your E level - so you've also kind of set the table for yourself too.
Don't be greedy. Lets take the above example one step further. You take a couple runs at those inbound enemas and, in the meanwhile, the friendlies have prevailed and are now ready to take on new business. So, use the Gangbang Effect to your teams advantage. Make a high speed run on the enemas, and stay low and fast. They'll swing around and start to chase you most of the time ("Hey, he dove into a 4-on-1, what a dweeb."). Let them. Let them chase you below where your countrymen are waiting. You may not get as many kills this way, but a good loner scout can really make an impact.
Practice Escape Evasives. If you're a lone wolf, you're going to get into a lot of situations where you need to Run Away - either because of low ammo, low fuel, damage, or too many enemas. Most people know how to break off and get out of guns range, but the rest of that flight home is as often as not where you die. You have to be smooth so as not to burn E when trying to run. Roll the plane and let it naturally turn - let the guys chasing you pull elevator and burn E. If other enemas roll in, expect them to try to turn hard and latch on. A subtle move is often all you need to ruin their shot but keep on moving. And learn to use the terrain - flying along the face of a hill/mountain can often be an escape mechanism if the other guys hasn't practiced as much as you and digs in a wingtip. Picking a plane with a big WEP reserve helps here, as does not wasting WEP in combat - save it for the run home. Another good escape move is the low-alt inverted loop - you're on the deck, being chased by a baddie - head into a 30-45 degree power climb - he'll follow and close a little - when you're at the right altitude, snap-roll and pull back and loop back the way you came. You have to know just how far you can push it and not auger (practice, practice, practice) - the guy following will see you suddenly disappear below his nose and will usually try to follow - often planting himself in the process. If he doesn't follow - if he zoom's to catch you on the way out - you're in deep brown stuff - unless he augers trying to zoom you on the deck.
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I'll never think of the "ENEMA" in the same way again :aok
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A few other nuggets of whizdumb from an age (and player) long past:
The good things in life never change. Fine advice as always, DoK.
- oldman
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And when in doubt: DiKta GonZo (http://www.gonzoville.com/games/dikta-gonzo/)
Almost 15 years later those rules still apply.
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Heres the thing people don't realize...flying, shooting, and situational ASSESSMENT aren't all the same skill.
Success in the MA is more about the latter two than the kind flying skill that can make someone a feared duellist, quite honestly. Even if you are a real hair-afire plunge into a sea-of-red type furballer, your success at that will be largely based on being able to kill that bandit who just made a mistake and got in front of your 3/9 *instantly*, instead of having to chase him around for awhile during which time you get picked.
these are words of wisdom,
many times (pretty much every sortie) I am being attacked by a multitude of cons, I fire on every one of them but cant hit, eventually they get me, I am not pissed at the gang, I am pissed at myself for not being able to kill when the opportunity presents itself, after more then 5 years I still cant hit, but yet I have fought upwards to 7-10 cons for over 5 min, or longer, yes there are days that for some reason I hit good and have taken out a crap load of cons attacking me but those days are very rare and far in between,
I have come to realize that no matter how well I can "merge" or avoid the nme cons shots, or guess an nme cons E-state accurately,
none of that will do me any good if I cant kill when he is in my gun solution.
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I have another pice of advice for lone wolf players. Its kinda hooked into the "practice escape evasives" thing.
Try to stay at an alt where you actually have some decent speed. If your alt for top speed is at 12K then try staying around that alt. I'm not saying fly perfectly strait and rely on HO's to get kills, but don't blow all your alt to get 3 guys. The exception to this rule is if your flying a plane without a whole lot of speed anywhere. In that case, fight when it suits you: if you get introuble, then you have no one to bail you out.
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I have another pice of advice for lone wolf players. Its kinda hooked into the "practice escape evasives" thing.
Try to stay at an alt where you actually have some decent speed. If your alt for top speed is at 12K then try staying around that alt. I'm not saying fly perfectly strait and rely on HO's to get kills, but don't blow all your alt to get 3 guys. The exception to this rule is if your flying a plane without a whole lot of speed anywhere. In that case, fight when it suits you: if you get introuble, then you have no one to bail you out.
Hmmm If you are way the heck up at 12k, how would you get kills?