Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ketinkrad on February 01, 2010, 07:29:33 AM
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Which is a better plane, the 109 or the 190. Thank You
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Too broad question that can't be answered. You may define "better" first.
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It's further complicated because it's not like the P-51 or F4U where the basic flight characteristics are more or less the same across all models (IE, despite the massive power difference the F4U-1 and F4U-4 are going to fly pretty much the same).
With the 109s and 190s your fighting style is going to change depending on the model (compare the K4 vs. the G2 or G6, or the Dora and Ta-152 vs. the A5).
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The way to truth is first to call a thing by its proper name, Grasshopper. A plane is a tool for working wood. An aeroplane (or airplane) is a heavier-than-air flying machine that relies on its mainplanes for lift.
;)
The two German aeroplane types you are comparing each have advantages and disadvantages when compared to each other. The Messerschmitt 109 was the earlier design and usually flown as an air-superiority fighter; the Focke Wulf 190 served the same purpose and was also developed into the Luftwaffe's main high-speed ground-attack aircraft, a bomber-destroyer and, in its late-war inline-engined Ta152H variant, a dedicated high-altitude fighter. You pays your money and makes your choice: what's your usual mission type, pure fighter or ground-attack?
:cool:
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As mentioned earlier, "which is better" is really too broad of a question. Looking at just about any two planes in the game you could find one or the other that is "better" depending on what attribute/characteristic is in question.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are new the game (my apologies if that is incorrect). Between the two planes I would say that the 190's (especially the D9) would offer a shorter path to initial success, while at the same time offering less options for ACM to the newer player. The 190's are more stable than the 109's and have a gun package that IMHO is easier to hit with and are fast enough to help keep you out of the tower. Outside of the 400mph boom and zoom/run gameplan however they will be harder to have success with for the newer player. Easier, but more limited.
I think the 109's are a little different, the earlier models, 109F, 109G2, are easier to handle, than the 109K, and are more nimble as well but slower. The K has enormous power up front that can be a little tricky to handle at first and the 30mm will test your aiming for awhile. If you get over initial troubles I think the 109's are more capable fighters in general than the 190's.
These are just my impressions, I should also mention that I actually have very little time in either type.
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if you are new to this you are gonna die a lot ...
don't fret everyone dies and everyone new dies a lot ...
soo if you want to wade in and fight tooth and nail i suggest that you use the 109 f-4 as it should maneuver as easily as most anything else in the set ...
if you want to pick your opportunities and hit and run i suggest the 190d9 as it can pretty much get away from anything in the set given 1/2 a chance ...
keep asking questions when you get frustrated as the wisdom of others will get you further faster, remember it is a game that has aspects of skill and knowlege so time will improve your results as long as you keep wanting to learn.
GL
+S+
t
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Which is better? Well all luft is better then any other rides so they are pretty darn good :aok
Saxman,
If your flying a 152 like a dora, you arent flying it right :aok
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No need to repeat the "better" variable.
This question was often asked in interviews with then-alive german sticks; Galland, Rall, etc, etc.
The general consensus was that the 190 was the better combat aircraft by most measures.
One pilot interviewed... I cant remember who for the life of me... Sheinhoff, maybe, stated that for "flying pleasure" the 109 was preferable but in a hostile environment, he would choose the 190 due to its relatively superior durability and survivability.
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Saxman,
If your flying a 152 like a dora, you arent flying it right :aok
Where did I say it was like flying a Dora? I said compare flying a Dora and 152 to an A5 and they're VERY different.
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Where did I say it was like flying a Dora? I said compare flying a Dora and 152 to an A5 and they're VERY different.
Ah thought you were putting the dora and 152 in same category, thats like putting a civic in the same category as a bmw :D :salute
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Both, of course, falling victim to the A5 (911 Turbo). :D
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Both, of course, falling victim to the A5 (911 Turbo). :D
True A5 is a beast :rock
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well then the a8 must be this ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo2FpKczRuQ
True A5 is a beast :rock
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well then the a8 must be this ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo2FpKczRuQ
A8 is like a suburban of a fighter, It goes around pretty stable, cant turn, but holds alot of what it carries :x :salute
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No need to repeat the "better" variable.
This question was often asked in interviews with then-alive german sticks; Galland, Rall, etc, etc.
The general consensus was that the 190 was the better combat aircraft by most measures.
One pilot interviewed... I cant remember who for the life of me... Sheinhoff, maybe, stated that for "flying pleasure" the 109 was preferable but in a hostile environment, he would choose the 190 due to its relatively superior durability and survivability.
I believe Rall said that the 190 was superior but the 109 "fit like a glove" and it would easily do whatever he wanted it to. Probably a popular sentiment.
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I believe Rall said that the 190 was superior but the 109 "fit like a glove" and it would easily do whatever he wanted it to. Probably a popular sentiment.
people tend to prefer what they are used to ...
i mean some people still prefer The Windows OS ... :x :bolt:
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A8 is like a suburban of a fighter, It goes around pretty stable, cant turn, but holds alot of what it carries :x :salute
hey common at least give me the H1 ...
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I prefer flying the 190..I find it a far better attack plane, however... when caught slow, you have far less defensive moves than the 109. when flying solo, I like to fly the k4..when I am with my squad...Lady D will always come out for a play
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I believe Rall said that the 190 was superior but the 109 "fit like a glove" and it would easily do whatever he wanted it to. Probably a popular sentiment.
Rall's comments on the 109 v. 190 can be viewed on You Tube with a simple search like "Rall 109."
I always loved his interviews - such vigor. "Zee von ninety voz a rugged aircravt! It had vour veapons around zee engine!" :D
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Better for what?
Planes are a bit like tools, don't use a screwdriver to try to pound in nails.
Don't use a hammer to try to drive in a screw.
Now granted its not quite that cut and dried, esp with the LW birds.
190's, esp the dora, run and gun. Long straight passes through the furball.
109s play more of a vertical game, use their great climb to rope the enemy.
Each has advantages and limitations. The key is to learn them all at least well enough to
be able to use your bird to its strengths, and force the other guy to fight at his weaknesses.
Which I know is a whole lot easier said than done.
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The 190's are clearly better......... At receiving radiator damage........ And rolling
The 109's are clearly better......... At losing a wing.......... And climbing (in general)
Bottom line, WHO is flying the birds? That is the only factor that matters.
"2 weeker" in a 152 vs. m00t in a 152, I'll take m00t's 152 at being better then 2 weeker's..
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I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are new the game (my apologies if that is incorrect). Between the two planes I would say that the 190's (especially the D9) would offer a shorter path to initial success, while at the same time offering less options for ACM to the newer player. The 190's are more stable than the 109's and have a gun package that IMHO is easier to hit with and are fast enough to help keep you out of the tower. Outside of the 400mph boom and zoom/run gameplan however they will be harder to have success with for the newer player. Easier, but more limited.
I think the 109's are a little different, the earlier models, 109F, 109G2, are easier to handle, than the 109K, and are more nimble as well but slower. The K has enormous power up front that can be a little tricky to handle at first and the 30mm will test your aiming for awhile. If you get over initial troubles I think the 109's are more capable fighters in general than the 190's.
I agree with all of this. Note that there's a huge difference between the FW190A models and the FW190D, with the Dora being much easier to fly well. Even so, if you're taking a long-term approach, you probably should be working on mastering the 109s.
- oldman
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Not an expert in any of these planes, but this always does good for me:
If he's talking air to air, then for 109s: G14 for starters, and as your gunnery imporves, the K4. Get in to about D300, or even D200 if possible, to use the 30mm cannon, as the balistics are just terrible. Use a light trigger finger as the 30mm ammo goes fast, an 2 .50's aren't going to knock anything down in a hurry. 50% fuel and DT's are good, and use only the 20mm in the G14, and leave the gondolas and rockets in the hanger.
Your in the wrong plane if your looking for a ground attack, its a one shot deal.
For 190's: A5 to start with as (IMO) it is the best starter plane out of the 190 set. The A8 just seems to wallow in a fight, and since newbs seem to wana turn, your going to be trying to tighten a bolt with a saw as far as the "a plane is a tool to use" issue goes. 50% fuel with the 190's always seems good to me, and as for the gun options, take the 4 gun option, but RTB every kill if you spray and pray, as 90 rpg goes fast. Oherwise head back when you see a sudden drop in the bullets your putting out.
For ground attack, I'd take either the F8, as its the best of the series, or the A8 as you have the options to take 4 20mm's, or 2 20mm's and 2 30mm's. Great for strafing, but ordanace is more limited.
Just general advice, keep the fuel loads light, I take 50% at the most unless I know its going to be a long flight. And get in close, D500-D300 is best.
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It has been my experience that utilizing the great rolling nature of the 190 is difficult but if you feel you are good in scissors - then the 190D has a lot of potential even outside the BnZ style its usually used in. The 109, since its so strong in the vertical, is actually slightly easier for newer pilots (like myself) because fighting in the vertical is much easier to imagine then in a roll. Its easier to keep your eye on the target, its easier to predict when planes will start stalling and falling out of the sky. So I find ACM to be esaier in the small, relativly light 109 then the 190.
I agree with the previous poster - if you are in a squad, the 190 really shows its strengths (lots of ammo, great high speed control, great views) but in a situation where you are alone or outnumbered I would rather be in a 109.
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In a scenario/FSO type environment, I'd rather fly the 190 over the 109. Most of the time in scenarios/FSOs speed and firepower dictates the fight and not maneuverability, since no one really flies the aircraft to the very edge anyway.
Not to mention, the 109's ammo load isn't very friendly when there is a lot of lag present, which particularly occurs in the SEA. In a completely defensive situation I would much rather fly the 109, in fact in many ways the late model 109s are superior to my P38.
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G14 for starters, and as your gunnery imporves, the K4.
I would contend that, if he's asking because he's new, he should start with the F4, then work his way up.
You need to figure that for even the most "instinctual" pile-it, flat, sustained turns will be the order of the day for the first couple months, at least. The F is really the only 109 that has this advantage over the usual LWMA suspects; most of which are inexperienced enough to get themselves into such a situation with said aircraft.
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That is a good point, I hadn't thought of that. But if he isn't new, the best plane to start with is undoutably the G14 or possibly the G2.
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According to what I've read ( how much is enough?) concensus has it the allied Pilots thought the 190 was more dangerous then the 109.
Even the 109 Pilots when they received the G Models weren't very happy with them. They had to use higher throttle settings and did not
have the handling of the F models. A bit more of a chore to fly.
Always remember....we are playing a game here. We have throttle settings to the wall most of the time in level flight. So engine temperature
is of no concern to us. Plus in many cases after using WEP until it was expended the engines performance was degraded. One limped home
with a less then stellar performing powerplant. WEP is not expended in game, it regenerates with cooler engine temperatures and can be used
again. So the difference in game and in WW2 combat is huge. We are comparing apples to oranges. Depending on hours even using WEP and
not expending it, at return to base the engine might need major work or a complete change. No such consequences occur in our cartoon world ;)
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Always remember....we are playing a game here. We have throttle settings to the wall most of the time in level flight. So engine temperature
is of no concern to us.
Uh, actually we *don't* fly with balls-to-the-wall most of the time. Because balls to the walls on our HOTAS doesn't actually give us balls to the wall power. For that you have to hit the WEP button.
Plus in many cases after using WEP until it was expended the engines performance was degraded. One limped home
with a less then stellar performing powerplant. WEP is not expended in game, it regenerates with cooler engine temperatures and can be used
again. So the difference in game and in WW2 combat is huge. We are comparing apples to oranges. Depending on hours even using WEP and
not expending it, at return to base the engine might need major work or a complete change. No such consequences occur in our cartoon world ;)
Given the history of many engines being pushed far beyond book limitations without failure, I'd actually say that AHII's "book limitation" method if anything forces us into using more conservative power settings than combat pilots often actually used.
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190s I don't really rate unless its the 190D not that the rest wouldn't be good against planes of the same period, but in the MA you can't dictate the terms of the fight in a 190 with a slower model the other models simply don't pack enough speed to recover from manoeuvring especially evasives and after a few you basically wont have the e to aviod the next one. This is the same reason I rate the K4 for the MA.
You can still mix it up with a Dora (to a lesser exent) or a K4 he biggest difference I'd have to say is the guns, the Dora's being more accurate which is better would probably come down to personal choice or fighting style in the end.
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Pervert, I've fought 38Ls (same as Js in performance, so thats point that kills your argument. The 38L just had dive flaps.), La-7's, 190D's and spit 16's to standstills in a 190A5. I'm fairly succesfull in C.205's, and FM2's all against LW planes. I've seen people destroy a 4-hog with ease in a 190A8. The issue isn't with the plane, its with the pilot. The 190D can't turn, but its faster, the 190A5 can turn better, but it can't run as fast. Its a trade off of one thing for another.
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190s I don't really rate unless its the 190D not that the rest wouldn't be good against planes of the same period, but in the MA you can't dictate the terms of the fight in a 190 with a slower model the other models simply don't pack enough speed to recover from manoeuvring especially evasives and after a few you basically wont have the e to aviod the next one. This is the same reason I rate the K4 for the MA.
Judging by this statement, you rate the 190s on the basis of flying them like a K4. In that case, it's no surprise you underestimate them. 190s are very capable, you need to stick to their preferred flight envelope, which is very different from that of the 109s.
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I think what he's saying is that the k4 has the power to recover from manuvring, same as the D9 does. But that older variants (109's too? Not sure about that from his post.) lack the engine power to generate speed to rundown opponents, and to recover from manuvering.
But just the fact that the P-38L, wich is just a J with manuvering dive recovery flaps, can compete in the LWA's means that his argument about planes from one period only being good against those of the same, or an earlier period holds no water.
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But just the fact that the P-38L, wich is just a J with manuvering dive recovery flaps, can compete in the LWA's means that his argument about planes from one period only being good against those of the same, or an earlier period holds no water.
I think Murdr said it best the 38 is a jack of all trades a good all rounder, the 190 series is not comparable to the 38, and not least for the fact they have a hardcore of exceptional sticks flying them.
Judging by this statement, you rate the 190s on the basis of flying them like a K4. In that case, it's no surprise you underestimate them. 190s are very capable, you need to stick to their preferred flight envelope, which is very different from that of the 109s.
Heres a clip that illustrates my point from 2 nights ago I could do the same in an A5 in this situation but I know for a fact I wouldn't have the power to stay out of guns. And just to prove beyond doubt that you don't need to turn fantastically to reverse a disadvantage the last plane takes one of my elevators using the engines power I'm still able to get out of guns and reverse his advantage in short pure turning isn't the only way to fight.
Oh and btw Boozeman any K4 sticks will see a lot of familiar moves in here.
http://www.4shared.com/file/215950245/9cec9cf2/doradeck.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/215950245/9cec9cf2/doradeck.html)
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You can't compare 38's to 190's in anything specific, but you can compare them overall. Its the same way people say the 4 hog is the best plane in the game. Its worse in some areas than others, and better in another area.
The fact is that the 190A5 CAN be competitive in the LW arenas. A lot of people think it isn't that great of a plane, but I personaly think it feels the lightest and easiest to fly of all the 190 series, 152 included.
About all you loose in the A5 over the D9 is the ability to rundown the faster planes, and a bit of the 190D's verticle manuvering. Past that, I feel that it preforms just as well in the other areas.
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Nemesis I'm not talking about speed to rundown people, I'm talking about the fact all 190s need to be going fast to turn well for evasives 'see video' and the Dora can get back up to speed for the next attack better than the other 190s. Thats not my opinion thats a hard cold fact.
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Heres a clip that illustrates my point from 2 nights ago I could do the same in an A5 in this situation but I know for a fact I wouldn't have the power to stay out of guns. And just to prove beyond doubt that you don't need to turn fantastically to reverse a disadvantage the last plane takes one of my elevators using the engines power I'm still able to get out of guns and reverse his advantage in short pure turning isn't the only way to fight.
Oh and btw Boozeman any K4 sticks will see a lot of familiar moves in here.
http://www.4shared.com/file/215950245/9cec9cf2/doradeck.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/215950245/9cec9cf2/doradeck.html)
First off, very nice 190 flying Pervert! I really enjoyed the clip. But I have to say that it was not the engine power that kept you out of gun range - you never got really fast in that fights, most of them were rather slow, with lot of vertical maneuvering. I'm sure if you had been in an A5, the results would have been similar.
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First off, very nice 190 flying Pervert! I really enjoyed the clip. But I have to say that it was not the engine power that kept you out of gun range - you never got really fast in that fights, most of them were rather slow, with lot of vertical maneuvering. I'm sure if you had been in an A5, the results would have been similar.
When I talk about fast turns, around 250 -300 + is where I'm looking to make my turns (usually at least 300) there even with one elevator missing I have to be fast to turn to set up the overshoot/merge this is the same as a co -alt 1v1 the more speed you can pack on the better you can turn for longer. I could make the same kinds of overshoots with a k4 with a lot less speed maybe as much as 150 mph + difference.
Looking at the film as I start my initial turns,
Against the p38 - 350 mph
Against the p51 – 300 mph
Against the Spit14 at the merge I’m still too slow 257 mph I roll and spilt S to get some speed back to 300 mph as I loop up
The pony who tags my elevator I'm only 270 mph and can't get turned quick enough
Not that I need to after a lot of my own testing but if you want hard figures do a comparison of these 2 planes at the Gonzoville fighter comparison site or all the 190s, the A5 gets to the magic 300 a whopping 8 seconds later than the Dora in acceleration.
In terms of air combat that’s a lifetime, imagine in that film of mine that I needed an extra 8 seconds or even 3 or 4 I’d be dead. Sadly in the MA this is what happens a lot in the A5 .
So far as power goes I’m sorry but the A5 cannot hang like the Dora thats a fact.
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It can't go in the vertical as long, but your playing the wrong game with the A5. She can supprise a lot of people with her turn rate. Won't necessarily turn with a spit, but shes not terrible either. Not saying you should fly the A5 like a turn-fighter, but don't be afraid to pull some turns. Try reversing your turns halfway through. When your opponent is about to draw a bead on you, flip around and start turning the other way. Really pisses me off when I'm on the other end of it.
If your set of skills is tailored to being the fastest, or having the best zoom climb or anything like that, your looking for a different aircraft IMO. The A5 offers a good combination of a lot of good aspects.
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The A5, maybe the best turner out of the 190 family, however, it is still below average amongst most of the other LW planes. You should always be using the vertical... I would rather take the acceleration and speed of lady D over the A5 every single time.
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It can't go in the vertical as long, but your playing the wrong game with the A5. She can supprise a lot of people with her turn rate. Won't necessarily turn with a spit, but shes not terrible either. Not saying you should fly the A5 like a turn-fighter, but don't be afraid to pull some turns. Try reversing your turns halfway through. When your opponent is about to draw a bead on you, flip around and start turning the other way. Really pisses me off when I'm on the other end of it.
If your set of skills is tailored to being the fastest, or having the best zoom climb or anything like that, your looking for a different aircraft IMO. The A5 offers a good combination of a lot of good aspects.
Sorry Nemisis but if theres someone behind me in a spit and I'm in an A5, I'd rather not take the chance of it being some n00b who will be 'surprised' by me turning, or flipping the other way when hes about to shoot. Even if you were in a spit doing this any half decent player wouldn't fall for such tactics and so you are relying on sheer luck to win a fight this way in any plane let alone one that turns and sheds E as badly as an A5.
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i usually try to go for the quickness advantage or high speed handling advantage of the 190s ...
both seem a bit underrepresented from the accounts i've read, but at least there there ...
funny things about the FWs is with the models represented and how, one would get the impression that ...
1) the 190As got worse as they were improved ...
2) that the dora turned worse than the 190As, which is the opposite of observations of the testers and operating pilots.
go figure ...
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Still would rather take my 190A5 over the D9. And I'm not relying on luck. I'm relying on the fuselage of their pland blocking them from seeing where I went. After that split S, I usually go into the verticle and flip around at the top to make a pass.
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After that split S, I usually go into the verticle and flip around at the top to make a pass.
It can't go in the vertical as long, but your playing the wrong game with the A5. She can supprise a lot of people with her turn rate.
Not saying you should fly the A5 like a turn-fighter, but don't be afraid to pull some turns. Try reversing your turns halfway through. When your opponent is about to draw a bead on you, flip around and start turning the other way.
Man theres so many contradictions there my head is hurting trying to figure out what your doing :headscratch:
I think to sum it up you just prefare the A5 to the Dora fair enough each to their own :cheers:
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Having read your original post ketinkrad it was the designers belief that the 190 would replace the 109 and mostly this should seem obvious to you without asking. Leads me to wonder if the orginal post was some form of trolling. If asking such a question one should put in the word....which is better FOR...
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2nd and 3rd don't contradict. 1st, I simply mean that I use the energy from the dive to get above my opponent just enough to let me make a pass. If I tried to go any further than that, I'd get beaten real fast.
But agreed, lets call an end to this.
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The Dora turning *substantially* worse than the A5 is one of those AHII urban legends. Certainly the sustained turn *rate* is as good or better.
i usually try to go for the quickness advantage or high speed handling advantage of the 190s ...
both seem a bit underrepresented from the accounts i've read, but at least there there ...
funny things about the FWs is with the models represented and how, one would get the impression that ...
1) the 190As got worse as they were improved ...
2) that the dora turned worse than the 190As, which is the opposite of observations of the testers and operating pilots.
go figure ...
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well i tend not to flat turn anything so i wouldn't know, i was just going on the impressions in here ...
The Dora turning *substantially* worse than the A5 is one of those AHII urban legends. Certainly the sustained turn *rate* is as good or better.
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well i tend not to flat turn anything so i wouldn't know, i was just going on the impressions in here ...
Rate and radius come out in non-flat turns too. The turns just don't form neat little circles anymore LOL
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The Dora turning *substantially* worse than the A5 is one of those AHII urban legends. Certainly the sustained turn *rate* is as good or better.
The 190 line follows the same upgrade path as all other birds. It gave up maneuverability for acceleration and top end. Im not sure how you are defining "substantially" but here are the numbers:
A5 Turn Radius, No Flaps: 787ft
D9 Turn Radius, No Flaps: 846ft
A5 Turn Radius, Full Flaps: 584ft
D9 Turn Radius, Full Flaps: 627ft
For purposes of comparison; the P-51D's full flap turn radius is 633ft.
Low-alt engine performance isnt as far off as you'd think, either. While the Dora maintains an acceleration advantage, the A5 outclimbs the D9 under military to about 6,500ft and, under WEP, the Dora maintains a slight advantage and a brief trade off occurs at about 4,000ft.
That is, keeping in mind, that the numbers are from tests with MA default "full" loadouts; including the outboard MGFF's in the A5; which no one takes, anyway. The reduction in weight would probably improve the A5's position by a good 5%.
It's also superior in rate of roll, which is a highly undervalued asset. I dont have numbers for it; but I'd bet that the A5 has the fastest maximum rate of roll in the game at nearly all speeds; with the Jug perhaps closing in at extremely high speeds (475kt+ dive, for example).
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Low-alt engine performance isnt as far off as you'd think, either. While the Dora maintains an acceleration advantage, the A5 outclimbs the D9 under military to about 6,500ft and, under WEP, the Dora maintains a slight advantage and a brief trade off occurs at about 4,000ft..
Fact is for MA being nearly there for the A5 isn't enough to keep it alive in terms of recovering its speed for the next fight, acceleration is its biggest weak point, the climb point it is more than certain that in MA both partys will be using wep given how long it lasts on these planes, so any significant advantage it has under military is useless more or less.
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Fact is for MA being nearly there for the A5 isn't enough to keep it alive in terms of recovering its speed for the next fight, acceleration is its biggest weak point, the climb point it is more than certain that in MA both partys will be using wep given how long it lasts on these planes, so any significant advantage it has under military is useless more or less.
No doubt the D9 can recover E more quickly after the fight; but I'd rather be in the A5 *for* the fight. ;)
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By "substantial", I mean enough to make up for the energy advantages of the Dora or that the Dora won't be able to get on the A5's six and turn with it for the kill, unlike fighting say a Spitfire, where a crazy amount of lead prediction is required to get a snapshot off and avoid getting stuck in lag.
While the A-5 is the best turner, this isn't saying much, since about the only fighter it really out-turns are other Fws. Full flaps numbers are misleading on Fw's because you have to get so bog slow to use them, the fight is probably already lost. So you've got two planes that are basically going to be out-turned by 90% of the MA. One of them has fantastic engine performance, the other one is midwarrish in performance. The two 13MMs make the Dora more lethal fighter to fighter IMHO than the A5, even with the (flawed) outboard cannons. Which I always take BTW, its 12 seconds of firing time and extra rocks ARE extra rocks.
I like the A5 too, but flying it in the LWMA is a labor of love, its about having fun and "what it is", not what it can do.
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Rate and radius come out in non-flat turns too. The turns just don't form neat little circles anymore LOL
i am sure it does, but when you are yo yo or lag rolling it is difficult to compare turn rate or radius with the the other guy who is in a flat turn ...
The 190 line follows the same upgrade path as all other birds. It gave up maneuverability for acceleration and top end. Im not sure how you are defining "substantially" but here are the numbers:
A5 Turn Radius, No Flaps: 787ft
D9 Turn Radius, No Flaps: 846ft
A5 Turn Radius, Full Flaps: 584ft
D9 Turn Radius, Full Flaps: 627ft
For purposes of comparison; the P-51D's full flap turn radius is 633ft.
Low-alt engine performance isnt as far off as you'd think, either. While the Dora maintains an acceleration advantage, the A5 outclimbs the D9 under military to about 6,500ft and, under WEP, the Dora maintains a slight advantage and a brief trade off occurs at about 4,000ft.
That is, keeping in mind, that the numbers are from tests with MA default "full" loadouts; including the outboard MGFF's in the A5; which no one takes, anyway. The reduction in weight would probably improve the A5's position by a good 5%.
It's also superior in rate of roll, which is a highly undervalued asset. I dont have numbers for it; but I'd bet that the A5 has the fastest maximum rate of roll in the game at nearly all speeds; with the Jug perhaps closing in at extremely high speeds (475kt+ dive, for example).
it seems to me that unless the weight to power ratio of the engine itself got worse, which i doubt. the a7 and later 190s had a lighter wing design than did the a6s and earlier so one would think that the maneuverability improved, that was the consensus of the pilots, although testing data is elusive ...
re the dora, the extended length apparently helped the turn stability thus making it a "better" turner that at least it's contemporary As, or at least that was the impression of the pilots who were actually using them in combat.
this was noted by the pilots whenever they lengthened the 190s BTW
tough to sort out though as the specific models are not listed in AH so there could be some discrepancies. it is odd why HTC chooses the models it does and in the case of many of the planes it would be nice to know which specific model we are talking about ...
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Easy...the Fw lineup in AHII have something that will cover early/midwar, a late-war Monster (two if you count the 152 as a member of the family...I don't) a "battering ram" and a dedicated ground attack craft. That's really alot of models for one plane family. Its really only us dedicated "fans" who want a more effective radial-engine model or two for the LW, instead of just take the Dora/152.
tough to sort out though as the specific models are not listed in AH so there could be some discrepancies. it is odd why HTC chooses the models it does and in the case of many of the planes it would be nice to know which specific model we are talking about ...
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Not an expert in any of these planes, but this always does good for me:
If he's talking air to air, then for 109s: G14 for starters, and as your gunnery imporves, the K4.
I wouldn't recomend any late war 109 to someone just starting out, no way. I would instead recommend a bf-109 g2. To be 'good' in a LW 109, you really have to know how to manage the engine & stall.
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Depends what you want to do. If you're looking to compete in a turning situation then the 109s are your best bet. The 190 is more of an E fighter and selective turn fighter. If you look at max potentials of Kills/Sortie, the Fw190 has much more capability in that regard. It comes down to deciding what you need in the tower to be most effective in the fight you have selected.
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No doubt the D9 can recover E more quickly after the fight; but I'd rather be in the A5 *for* the fight. ;)
Well that comes down to personal preference I guess :D
I thought you had posted quoting part of the debate between me and nemisis? :headscratch:
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I wouldn't recomend any late war 109 to someone just starting out, no way. I would instead recommend a bf-109 g2. To be 'good' in a LW 109, you really have to know how to manage the engine & stall.
For someone "just starting out" in German planes...109F4 would be my pick...but then I'm pretty new compared to many in AH...it turns better than any of the G models, less tendency to stall, decent speed, decent roll rate (for a 109) and dive recovery is easier in it...if only it had the same engine as the G-6 or 10...
I've been wondering what Thorsim has been wondering...for instance why the 190-A5 and not the 190-A6...and why not the 190-A2 for an "early war" model? Production numbers maybe?
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I'm guessing its because the A-5 can stand in for the first butcherbirds in early scenarious without being ridiculous and also is still pretty good in Midissh timeframes.
I've been wondering what Thorsim has been wondering...for instance why the 190-A5 and not the 190-A6...and why not the 190-A2 for an "early war" model? Production numbers maybe?
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This debate is still ongoing?
Let me put an end to it, then :neener:
The 109 is the better "fighter"
The 190 is the better "killer"
They can each do both, but there's a subtle differentiation in the categories.
As for the Dora: It climbs like a 109, turns like a 190a5. It's acceleration is through the roof, and can loop, rolling scissors, yo-yo, at least 10 times better than an A-5 when furballing. The D9 is a much better furballer, since it won't reach that "oh crap I'm dead" moment as quickly as the A5 will.
I'd also be careful suggesting newbies start with the F-4. It's a nimble plane for sure, but as far as killers go, most newbies won't like it, may get frustrated and give up. The slow speed, inability to disengage, run away, or chase anybody down, will get on their nerves. The faster G-2 is a better option, but I'd just suggest flying the G-14 with 20mm hub gun to learn. Superb power, climb, accel, and same hub gun. It gives you the tools to be competitive in the LW environment but still learn the quirks and foibles of the plane type. Once you get a few kills and feel comfortable you'll be better suited to move on to the G2 or F4 models.
Just my thoughts on the matter. It's like the spit1. Best turning spit by far, but nobody wants to start in it because you can't kill in it without some modicum of skill. You get that skill on the higher marks (the more competitive ones) then work towards it.
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I'd also be careful suggesting newbies start with the F-4. It's a nimble plane for sure, but as far as killers go, most newbies won't like it, may get frustrated and give up. The slow speed, inability to disengage, run away, or chase anybody down, will get on their nerves. The faster G-2 is a better option, but I'd just suggest flying the G-14 with 20mm hub gun to learn. Superb power, climb, accel, and same hub gun. It gives you the tools to be competitive in the LW environment but still learn the quirks and foibles of the plane type. Once you get a few kills and feel comfortable you'll be better suited to move on to the G2 or F4 models.
I dunno Krusty...before coming to AH I generally couldn't stand the 109s...but after forcing myself to learn I've found my survivability in the 109-F4 is better than the G-6 or G14 when there are a lot of planes fighting from 7k to the deck...and dumb me likes to jump into a fight without thinking...I've learned to use the bb-guns to get a bead on the target for the cannon and only shoot from shorter ranges unlike the 190s where there is plenty of 20mm to waste a few, and the bigger guns make it more tempting to start shooting from longer ranges. The G-6 and G-14 have excellent power (for 109s) but maneuverability isn't as good...and it's way too easy to get into control trouble at high speeds with them...as slow as the F-4 model is, it's easier to back off before you get to the point where your controls don't respond turning you into a lawn dart. In the situation where you're "hunting" in a 109, yeah, I'd go with the 109-G6 or the G14...but in a furball, where a lot of newbs often find themselves, if they want to fly a 109, I'd say the F4 model.
P.S. the 109-F4, G2, G6 and G14 have 20mm hub cannon...MG 151/20...E4 model has the MG FF/M.
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gyrene: "with 20mm hub gun" as opposed to the 30mm, so that switching to earlier models won't involve learning new ballistics.
Also, the G14 is quite nimble, when flown without gondolas. It will outmanuver most late war planes, and can give spits a run for their money (in combat, not flat turns, that is).
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Definatly will give an unwary spit pilot fits.
When hunting, I leave the gondolas in the hanger and take the 20mm hub cannnon with 200 rpg. Leaves you lighter and faster, and with decent firepower
When in a furball I take the gondolas and the nose cannon, as I'm one target among many, so no one is going to specificly target me unless 109's just piss them off. That lets me get away with taking firepower (gets kills faster, and when in a furball where anyone can get on your 6, its a priority) over manuverability.
When buff hunting, I take the 30mm hub cannon, and the gondolas. When the 30mm runs dry, I RTB. Can get upto 4 sets of bombers (my personal record, you probably COULD get more, but its beyond my accuracy) in a single flight without rearm.
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as I'm one target among many, so no one is going to specificly target me unless 109's just piss them off...
I actually find that many people actively avoid 109's and Yak's, regardless.
Both are small aircraft and difficult to hit. Consider how much attention, by comparison, a P-38 gets in a furball.
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Right on Soulyss. I have noticed that the 109 will give you a better edge in straight-up fight, while the 190 is a beast when it comes to BnZin'. 190s are more for killing Bombers in my opinion, but then again, I just cannot fly a 190 in a 1v1. I love the 109 for most everything, especially the F and G14. You need to work your Trim more on 109s than 190s. You get that down and 109 is a Death Dealing Basterd! Remember guys, this is my opinion so feel free to break it down further. I am still in the process of doing my research on the 109's and theyre strengths and weakness's. <S>
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I actually find that many people actively avoid 109's and Yak's, regardless.
Both are small aircraft and difficult to hit. Consider how much attention, by comparison, a P-38 gets in a furball.
I figured it was because they assumed it was a good pilot in the plane, on top of the reason you just stated.
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I figured it was because they assumed it was a good pilot in the plane, on top of the reason you just stated.
They can be fluff'ng hard to hit with even an indifferent pilot in it. On top of that, the Ruskie planes seems to absorb a ton of ammo!
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I try to avoid Yaks...I hate them, I really hate them....it is a aeroplane spawned from the fiery depths of hell.
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here is what sort of puzzles me ...
all this fighting is more fun and the correct way to play and the only thing that makes you better arguments ...
does that only apply to the better planes for that stuff?
see i find that difficulty is a large part of the fun, and i am wondering why more of you guys who are soo good at furballing already are not graduating to airframes that are more difficult to "fight" in compared to the usual suspects.
i mean i just don't see many of those making all the comments about "putting yourself at risk" in a furball putting themselves in FMs that do not put themselves at a significant advantage in those types of fights. i mean your arguments would carry a lot more weight if you guys were not in planes that tend to dominate the fights you insist are the only way to make you a better fighter pilot.
this is in response to the 190 is for this, and 109 is for that, and the avoid the this that or whatever discussions ...
i mean if you can dominate the furball in a furball dominant airframe because you have learned AH/ACM are we supposed to be impressed?
i would like to see guys discussing dominating furballs in the 190s because you have learned AH/ACM that would be far more impressive than the avoid this or that discussion here that imo tends to undermine the whole "Furballers are better" argument.
when i have been caught in a furball say when defending a base i see a lot of wiffs and the only thing i can think of is because the maneuvers i am forced to use to solve my angles in my a8 vs. better turn fighters just leave a lot the furballers looking for their proverbial jock straps.
point being if they had to learn those maneuvers they would not only be able to predict them from me but they would also find that those maneuvers translate to the turnfighters just as well and by using them they could also solve their angles more efficiently than just they typical "pull harder, climb better" in the better turning better climbing aircraft those furballers gravitate towards.
i don't mean this as a dig so much as i am wondering why more of you do not push yourselves more by using more difficult airframes if as so many of you say furballing is for and about being "better" players.
point being, is not the "inferior plane" actually "better" to use at some point if your goal is becoming a "better" player?
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i would like to see guys discussing dominating furballs in the 190s because you have learned AH/ACM that would be far more impressive than the avoid this or that discussion here that imo tends to undermine the whole "Furballers are better" argument.
:lol
I do dogfight in 190s but I don't expect somebody like you to do it and I would never recommend doing it for the average pilot asking a generic question about the aircraft's strengths and weaknesses.
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:lol
I do dogfight in 190s but I don't expect somebody like you to do it and I would never recommend doing it for the average pilot asking a generic question about the aircraft's strengths and weaknesses.
I think he was talking about furballing where people get dissed for picking...not simple dogfighting, as in 1v1 or 1v2...
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(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5431/luftwaffle.gif) mmmmmmmm, tasty. :bolt:
:) Back on topic, I think that a newer player would be better off flying the 109f as some others have said, as it offers great turning ability along with decent speed. On the other hand, the guns are a bit measly.
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I try to avoid Yaks...I hate them, I really hate them....it is a aeroplane spawned from the fiery depths of hell.
:rofl Come on, Yaks arent that... bad. Hehehe. I personally prefer the 190 over the 109. Two main reasons- greater survivability, and more firepower. As far as what plane is the best? It all depends on your fighting style. ;)
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you are not one of those i would call a furballer grizz
i know people fight in the 190s, however those are not usually the ones professing the virtues of furballing ...
the gist i was trying to get at is that all the reasons those that furballers profess are the virtues of "fighting" would be even more productive if the fights were taken on in planes that are a bit more difficult in those situations, yet few of the people advocating that approach can ever be found in anything other than a great furballer. it sort of lends less credit to the "i do this because it makes me better" argument, and lends more weight to the counter argument that the furballers are just crying because somebody found a way to shoot them down without furballing and how unfair they think that is.
:lol
I do dogfight in 190s but I don't expect somebody like you to do it and I would never recommend doing it for the average pilot asking a generic question about the aircraft's strengths and weaknesses.
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you are not one of those i would call a furballer grizz
I almost never see anyone actually 'fight' in 190s, its always a quick pass followed by running away or swooping in and picking someone already engaged, and that includes you Thorsim and Bnz. I am calling you guys out because you guys talk a lot about luft planes etc... That being said, you can turn fight with 190s and last night I had good fights against sunsfan in the da with 190-D9s & p-51s. Here is the deal though, 190s have a NASTY snap stall, and stall at a fairly high speed (around 130) but they have better 'e' retention than a p51 and a better climb rate. They are not too bad in a rolling scissors and nice in vertical reversals (due to the roll rate). I personally prefer the 109G14 and k4 over the 190s but flown right, I could see it being a nasty plane to contend with.
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i'm not sure what you are getting at?
do i furball as a prefrence, no ... do i furball in the 190, yes ... do i think that there is only one real way to approach the game, no ... do i think anyone who differs in their approach to the game from mine is "wrong", no ...
if you are saying i do not fight in the 190s you are incorrect ...
if you are saying i don't think that is the best approach you are right, but i have never said differently ...
what i find somewhat annoying, disingenuous, and suspect, is someone suggesting all sorts of unkind things because someone does not have a tendency to hop into a situation where the complainer has engineered all the advantages, especially when those same players refuse to engage in situations where they might be at a disadvantage.
I almost never see anyone actually 'fight' in 190s, its always a quick pass followed by running away or swooping in and picking someone already engaged, and that includes you Thorsim and Bnz. I am calling you guys out because you guys talk a lot about luft planes etc... That being said, you can turn fight with 190s and last night I had good fights against sunsfan in the da with 190-D9s & p-51s. Here is the deal though, 190s have a NASTY snap stall, and stall at a fairly high speed (around 130) but they have better 'e' retention than a p51 and a better climb rate. They are not too bad in a rolling scissors and nice in vertical reversals (due to the roll rate). I personally prefer the 109G14 and k4 over the 190s but flown right, I could see it being a nasty plane to contend with.
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AS I said before, I was not attempting to attack you, I was just stating that contrary to how most people fly them (BnZ and picking), 190s can turn fight well and can be a formidable plane to fight against. Also, shy of just bnzing, I don't think they are suitable for beginners.
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Hey TC, mind if I post the film of our "duels" in the 190 A-5 for the sake of this horse's ass?
I almost never see anyone actually 'fight' in 190s, its always a quick pass followed by running away or swooping in and picking someone already engaged, and that includes you Thorsim and Bnz. I am calling you guys out because you guys talk a lot about luft planes etc... That being said, you can turn fight with 190s and last night I had good fights against sunsfan in the da with 190-D9s & p-51s. Here is the deal though, 190s have a NASTY snap stall, and stall at a fairly high speed (around 130) but they have better 'e' retention than a p51 and a better climb rate. They are not too bad in a rolling scissors and nice in vertical reversals (due to the roll rate). I personally prefer the 109G14 and k4 over the 190s but flown right, I could see it being a nasty plane to contend with.
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AS I said before, I was not attempting to attack you, I was just stating that contrary to how most people fly them (BnZ and picking), 190s can turn fight well and can be a formidable plane to fight against. Also, shy of just bnzing, I don't think they are suitable for beginners.
Problem with the MA is, engaging into a turn fight in any populated area will result in death most of the time unless you 2 week noob pwn the guy you are fighting and move on quickly.
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I will never turn fight in a dora..I always use the vertical....I tend to fly the dora quite aggressively now, if we end up low and slow I will break off and accerlate away and then turn it into an E fight, or if I can not break off, I will try to use my roll rate to move out of phase and initate a scissors etc.
not that I am making out that I am a good stick, but most other 190s I bump into in the MA, I usualy shoot them down or they dive out, as I find they are flown too timid, or the other pilot deos not know the plane as well as I do.Since I have started AH, I have only ever flown 190s and 109s, most of the time in lady D,152 or K4..I have flown a few non luft rides in the odd FSO and DA. No mater what aircraft I fly for awhile ( another varient of 109/190) I always come back to the lady D.
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JMO- To me the 109 is much easier to learn & fly at low and med alts/speeds, turns cleaner like a spit, responds well at most speeds. I love that big elevator! It can pull you up abruptly and back down quickly out of someone's sight picture. That Clank of the pneumatic elevator aileron actuator is unique and kinda sounds cool to me. However, It locks up in a fast dive and makes you go test drilling. The 190 is finicky, has smaller main wing surfaces, hates slow turns, wants to stall easily, harder to land, doesn't like its flaps, doesn't want to glide at all, tries to slip it's tail under and ahead of you in a medium speed high g-turn/climbs. If you slow down, your dead. It dives much better, less apt to get compression lock on control surfaces from excessive speed. Fly high, dive strafe and climb back up, and look for another op. Peregrine Falcon vs Chicken Hawk. :aok
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Never noticed that people avoid either yak or 109. Really, I find I get more attention in a yak or 109 than about any other aircraft that isn't one of those "sure kills" (l-16, brewster, F4F, P-40B, etc).
And I attack them just as much as any other aircraft. I usually attack by threat level: a 109 is more dangerous than a P-40, just as a 262 is more dangerous than a 109. And a 109 isn't much or any harder than a P-51, or a 190.
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:cry
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190a5 is one of the most surviable planes in the arena, flown correctly
You have to stay fast and use its quick turn rate do get angle.
if you use 2 *20mm guns only, it can surprise many pilots thinking they are safe because they survived the snapshot.
you really have to set a harddeck in the 190 - its survivability depends on its acceleration by diving to regain manoeuvrability fast.
Use WEP wise and try to cool engine off when you can.
As for the 190a8 - its a pig in drag compared :)
Btw I hate la7's more than yak9's - them I can outmanoeuvre with ease.
Glad we dont have yak3's here - in WB they where a plague :)
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Just out of curiosity, what planes can one hope to out "turnfight" in any FW model? Turnfighter is the last adjective I'd use to describe any of the Wulfs.
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Just out of curiosity, what planes can one hope to out "turnfight" in any FW model? Turnfighter is the last adjective I'd use to describe any of the Wulfs.
Pulling back on the stick is one of several ways to gain a firing solution. If thats your only option, an FW is not the choice.
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Just out of curiosity, what planes can one hope to out "turnfight" in any FW model? Turnfighter is the last adjective I'd use to describe any of the Wulfs.
I'd say the post-op P-51 would be a candidate. Other 190s, most of the bombers (all of the 4 engine ones). Think that is about it.
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Just out of curiosity, what planes can one hope to out "turnfight" in any FW model? Turnfighter is the last adjective I'd use to describe any of the Wulfs.
If you're talking flat turns which are not ideal for 190s, 190-A5 in toonville you can out turn a P-40B for a short time...a 109G or K series...a Tempest in a left hand turn...P-47s.
The 190-A8 doesn't turn well at all...but once in a while you get lucky, just don't hang it in a flat turn.
The 190-D9 can hang with P-51D, P-47, P-38, Tempest, Typhoon.
Of course as Bubbajj says, there are the bombers.
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Which is a better plane, the 109 or the 190. Thank You
:airplane: 109 is more flexible and manuverable and good for low alt. 190 has more firepower and better speeds at high alts.
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If you're talking flat turns which are not ideal for 190s, 190-A5 in toonville you can out turn a P-40B for a short time...a 109G or K series...a Tempest in a left hand turn...P-47s.
The 190-A8 doesn't turn well at all...but once in a while you get lucky, just don't hang it in a flat turn.
The 190-D9 can hang with P-51D, P-47, P-38, Tempest, Typhoon.
Of course as Bubbajj says, there are the bombers.
FW 190D-9 cannot hang with a P-38 in an angles fight (whether on the horizontal or vertical) at any speeds.
ack-ack
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The 190-D9 can hang with P-51D, P-47, P-38, Tempest, Typhoon.
The D-9 polot better be extremely proficient in utilizing his roll rate to the maximum effect vs the Tempest, as the latter will outturn the D-9 pretty easily. Both in turn radius as well as turn rate the D-9 is no match.
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I did a few runs in a Dora tonight. The thing is a monumental pig if you don't have alt to work with and the climb rate isn't that hot. That said I did do ok taking three out before I got chased down by two ponies, an 4-hog, an A hog that dropped down from the moon, two nikis, a spixteen, a K4, and an assortment of other craft I couldn't identify cause all the red kinda merged together. Definately a BnZ bird but heaven help you if you manage to get saddled. I thought they were supposed to be fast, maybe not so much. A5 is a good midwar bird and I've been tooling around with it a bit lately too.
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FW 190D-9 cannot hang with a P-38 in an angles fight (whether on the horizontal or vertical) at any speeds.
ack-ack
Well sir, depending on my mood, and level of brain activity, I have been able to hang with P-38s in various situations...remembering the D9s limitations vs the 38 all one has to do is think and use the strengths of the plane...of course I have yet to catch you with your shorts down but the time will come... :D
The D-9 polot better be extremely proficient in utilizing his roll rate to the maximum effect vs the Tempest, as the latter will outturn the D-9 pretty easily. Both in turn radius as well as turn rate the D-9 is no match.
I don't know about that, I have yet to be out turned by a Tempest unless I get stupid enough to turn the D9 flat or get slow enough that the Tempest can deploy flaps before the D9 can. Now the A8 is a definite no win against the Tempest...unless it's a HO...then the A8 has a chance with a heavy gun package.
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http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
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I did a few runs in a Dora tonight. The thing is a monumental pig if you don't have alt to work with and the climb rate isn't that hot.
Eh?
The climb rate in the D-9 eclipses most of the LWMA plane set. Alt-X it, hit WEP and even with 100% internal and a drop tank, you'll climb like a raped ape.
While I don't particularly care for the D9, I have flown it enough to realize its pretty far from a pig. The A8 is a pig. The Dora, by comparison, is a very capable fighter if flown to its strengths. Even without altitude, E recovery (acceleration/altitude) from co-E states is better than most of what you ran up against per your post.
With nothing more than a 1-2K altitude advantage, I find that the D9 can linger on the edges of a furball and engage and disengage, essentially, at will. Even if you get caught in a low speed, co-E engagement, you should still be able to gain vertical displacement against most aircraft, consistently.
Try your test on any night other than Tuesday. You wont have the 25,000ft Club to contend with and your choice of engagements wont be limited to 10v1 or 1v10.
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I musta been doin it all wrong. I took drops and didn't use WEP to get to alt. It seems a LALA is all over it for climb in that condition. It did Zoom nicely with wep. I lingered over an enemy field for a while. Problem came when wep was gone and higher cons started appearing. They just ran me down. No doubt if I practiced I would see a bit more of its strengths. A bit of discretion probably wouldn't have hurt either. If nothing else I looked cool. The D is one Evil Sexy looking Biznatch.
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The La-7 takes the strengths of the D-9 and K-4 and combines them into one sweet little package. It'll dominate either one in a fight, although the K-4 has a chance if the La-7 pilot isn't all that good.
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Well sir, depending on my mood, and level of brain activity, I have been able to hang with P-38s in various situations...remembering the D9s limitations vs the 38 all one has to do is think and use the strengths of the plane...of course I have yet to catch you with your shorts down but the time will come... :D
What you explained is a clear indicator that in those fights the superior pilot came out on top over the inferior pilot and not a case where the plane was the deciding factor. Honestly, if a P-38 driver gets out maneuvered in an angles fight by a Dora it's because the Lightning driver screwed up big time.
ack-ack
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Well, yeah in a D9 if a La-7 gets on your six, you have a short window of opportunity to extend and maneuver if the lala doesn't have more E on you...otherwise the gig is up fast...just don't get caught low and slow by a lala.
What you explained is a clear indicator that in those fights the superior pilot came out on top over the inferior pilot and not a case where the plane was the deciding factor. Honestly, if a P-38 driver gets out maneuvered in an angles fight by a Dora it's because the Lightning driver screwed up big time.
ack-ack
Hell man, you've shot me down enough times to know I'm not a "superior pilot" by any stretch of the imagination...you really don't think the Dora can hold its own against a Lightning if its flown to the strengths of the plane?