Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Traveler on February 13, 2010, 03:25:09 PM

Title: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 13, 2010, 03:25:09 PM
Would like to see a more realistic aircraft engine model.  Currently every aircraft in AH can is be flown with the engine throttle fire walled.  Currently the only time an engine overheats is when WEP is applied or engine oil pressure is lost.  This is just not realistic.  All the aircraft engines of the time were subject to over heating and had performance limits set that when exceeded for extended periods of time resulted in a engine over heating and or a seized engine.

I dare say that no one in the game limits RPM or Manifold settings currently. 

I think it would add a new dynamic to the game, be interesting to see the effects on game play if pilots were unable to just dash about at full power all the time.  It would add a degree of reality and make for a more accurate aircraft model.

I don’t know if the program elements are all in place to effect this type of change, but right now it’s possible to control Manifold pressure and RPM and the engine over heating element is present for WEP.  I’ve got to think that it could be expended for other RPM settings as well without much trouble.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 13, 2010, 03:27:25 PM
You might want to read this whole thread before you go any further with your wish...

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283332.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283332.0.html)
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: jdbecks on February 13, 2010, 03:37:23 PM
I already adjust throttle and rpm for both curising around and whilst engaged.

But why will this be fun? to have engine failures etc
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 13, 2010, 03:41:20 PM
You'd be shocked at the punishment some of these engines could take.  The majority of limitations in the pilot's handbooks are about engine longevity and maintenance cycles, not about preventing engine failures.

Off hand I recall reading of a Spitfire pilot who panicked and ran his Spitfire on WEP for about 30 minutes straight.  They pulled the engine and did a thorough check on it, but could find nothing wrong with it so returned it to service.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: bj229r on February 13, 2010, 03:44:16 PM
I limit my rpms when gas gets down near 120 gallons (which gets you 12 minutes at full power...14 or so at wep)....at 2200, N gets like 40-50% more time aloft, with little speed loss in level flight
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 13, 2010, 04:00:18 PM
You might want to read this whole thread before you go any further with your wish...

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283332.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283332.0.html)

Not sure what you mean by "before you go any further with your wish".  My wish is posted.  I've taken it as far as I can.  Also in comparison to the thread that you included.  I am not asking for Engine warm up times, cowel flaps or any of that.  I'd just like to see the aircraft engine performance limited as stated in my wish.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 13, 2010, 04:01:39 PM
Not sure what you mean by "before you go any further with your wish".  My wish is posted.  I've taken it as far as I can.  Also in comparison to the thread that you included.  I am not asking for Engine warm up times, cowel flaps or any of that.  I'd just like to see the aircraft engine performance limited as stated in my wish.
Your wish is highly unrealistic.  You want our engines in the game to be unrealistically fragile and limited.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 13, 2010, 04:07:30 PM
I already adjust throttle and rpm for both curising around and whilst engaged.

But why will this be fun? to have engine failures etc

If you currently adjust throttle adn rpm, then my wish will not effect your game play and has no impact on you.

It will require a greater undersanding of how the actual performance of an aircraft engine might impact a fight.  Currently there is no penalty for abusing engine performance everyone , except you, does it.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 13, 2010, 04:21:07 PM
You'd be shocked at the punishment some of these engines could take.  The majority of limitations in the pilot's handbooks are about engine longevity and maintenance cycles, not about preventing engine failures.

Off hand I recall reading of a Spitfire pilot who panicked and ran his Spitfire on WEP for about 30 minutes straight.  They pulled the engine and did a thorough check on it, but could find nothing wrong with it so returned it to service.

I would not be shocked, my dad flew P47 and later P51 in WWII.  He preferred the 47 because it could take a beating and still get him back to base.  Pilots were assigned planes, Planes were assigned to missions.  Longevity and Maintenance was a daily issue for squadrons. 

I’m just wishing for a more realistic engine model.  One that would require pilots to adhere to performance restriction.  I’m not seeking a required warm up period or the inclusion of cowl flaps operations.  I’m just saying that WWII aircraft were not able to operate with the throttle fire walled and not overheat the engine.  There were restrictions on Manifold Pressure, RPM and Max power limits. 

We currently have a limit based on engine temperature for WEP, Why? Because it's more realistic. 
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 13, 2010, 04:25:27 PM
You'd be shocked at the punishment some of these engines could take.  The majority of limitations in the pilot's handbooks are about engine longevity and maintenance cycles, not about preventing engine failures.

Off hand I recall reading of a Spitfire pilot who panicked and ran his Spitfire on WEP for about 30 minutes straight.  They pulled the engine and did a thorough check on it, but could find nothing wrong with it so returned it to service.
So what you're saying Karnak, if I'm reading this correctly...is that if I told you that one Ford 428 Cobrajet engine ran for 4 hours straight at 10,000 rpms without any visible signs of damage all of those engines could do the same thing. Is that correct?
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 13, 2010, 04:36:29 PM
Your wish is highly unrealistic.  You want our engines in the game to be unrealistically fragile and limited.

Not at all, I'm suggesting that the engines were very reliable as operated by the USAAF during WWII.  That the operations of the engines was guided by performance manuals that pilots referenced during planning and the actual flight.  I know this to be a fact, either that or my Dad was the only fighter pilot in WWII  that used them.

I also know for a fact that the T6 and P40 as well as the F4 Corsair will over heat if the engine limits are not respected.  I have over 1000 hours split between them  and over 400 hours in a B25.  I worked for a company that would put these aircraft on display at air shows.  I ferried these aircraft up and down the east coast and as far west as Oshkosh for most of the 80,s and 90’s.  

Everyone always stresses how accurate the model is in Aces High, well as far as aircraft engine operation goes,  its not.  But it could be.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 13, 2010, 04:51:32 PM
Not at all, I'm suggesting that the engines were very reliable as operated by the USAAF during WWII.  That the operations of the engines was guided by performance manuals that pilots referenced during planning and the actual flight.  I know this to be a fact, either that or my Dad was the only fighter pilot in WWII  that used them.

I also know for a fact that the T6 and P40 as well as the F4 Corsair will over heat if the engine limits are not respected.  I have over 1000 hours split between them  and over 400 hours in a B25.  I worked for a company that would put these aircraft on display at air shows.  I ferried these aircraft up and down the east coast and as far west as Oshkosh for most of the 80,s and 90’s.  

Everyone always stresses how accurate the model is in Aces High, well as far as aircraft engine operation goes,  its not.  But it could be.
Ah, you're that Traveler...I was wondering where you were getting your notions. Hate to say it but the "game" side of AH will prevail over the "more realistic" because the game side is the bread and butter of the player base.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 13, 2010, 05:11:25 PM
Ah, you're that Traveler...I was wondering where you were getting your notions. Hate to say it but the "game" side of AH will prevail over the "more realistic" because the game side is the bread and butter of the player base.

if that were true then the WEP limit makes no sense.  Nothing wrong with the game side of things, just want to make the game more interesting.  AH has already established many limits within the game.   I'm just pointing out the lack of engine performance limits.  Not trying to make it more difficult, but more challenging.  Why have G limits on aircarft?  Because it makes the game more challenging.  I just think that engine performance limits would do the same thing.

Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Krusty on February 13, 2010, 05:23:33 PM
Your wish is highly unrealistic.  You want our engines in the game to be unrealistically fragile and limited.

I disagree...

Simply wanting different heat/overheat for different engine settings isn't a problem. I'd love to see that realistically modeled someday. He's not asking for instant engine explosions if you use wep for 5.0001 minutes, or anything (like another thread).

Many folks do use throttle/rpm settings in-game, but currently only for range/fuel issues. I'd like to see bombers limited to historic power settings. Until we get engine over-heats (and some form of engine wear if levels are exceeded that HTC comes up with and we all accept), bombers run around at speeds comparable to many fighters' top speeds.

Overall it's a decent wish, but given current gameplay limitations and (from what I can tell) given HTC's current line of focus, I don't think we'll see it soon.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: bj229r on February 13, 2010, 08:29:03 PM
Yall are just BEGGING for HT to come in here and slap yall around like red-headed step children (5pointOh aside :D)
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Peyton on February 14, 2010, 04:05:15 PM
If you want super duper realism tavelr..have HT make an arena for it.  As for implementing it in the game.  My vote is no way.  There is aleady a steep learing curve for the game.  Why make it harder to learn? 

LMAO...you'll have every new person blowing an engine before they get off the runway.  GRIZZ will fly over in his 262 and get all the kills and won't even have to fire a bullet.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 14, 2010, 06:14:28 PM
If you want super duper realism tavelr..have HT make an arena for it.  As for implementing it in the game.  My vote is no way.  There is aleady a steep learing curve for the game.  Why make it harder to learn? 
Steep learning curve? Where? Doesn't take much to read a little.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 14, 2010, 07:05:53 PM
Steep learning curve? Where? Doesn't take much to read a little.
New players get shot down over and over and over and over and over and over with almost no reward for their efforts.

I remember, many years ago, flying around in my Mossie about halfway between two fields where there was a small brawl going on.  I kept killing the same guy's La-7 in very short engagements and after doing so for the third time I intentionally stopped targeting La-7s there because it had to be sucking for him to up, fly twenty miles only to have this Mossie blow him apart in a few seconds when he arrived.  He wasn't getting any maneuvering time at all, just repeated demonstrations of what four nose mounted Hispanos do to a WWII fighter.  If people like him feel they have no chance, and against me he had no chance, they don't stick around to pay for the game.  If the game is made harder so that while they are trying their feeble, initial ideas on how to avoid being shot down they also now have to fiddle with, and memorize, a bunch of abstract key presses in order to not knock themselves out of the sky, well, it would just mean fewer of them would stick around to subscribe.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 14, 2010, 07:16:32 PM
Quote
There is aleady a steep learing curve for the game.  Why make it harder to learn?

I've said that myself, heard it said and I think its fairly well understood and has been since the days of MS Fighter Ace and so on. But do you really know what your saying. Fighter Ace today is very much like it was over a decade ago. It still has a lot of people online going from furball to furball and honestly the action is fast and without any of the additional pilot controls you might find in TW or AH. It's fairly simple to just jump in and go. Once you learn the UI there is not much you need to know about aircraft. It's a great place to learn air combat basic maneuvers and has an rather good AI instruction system. You know and I think everyone here knows that learning the UI is the hardest part of getting into flight simming. People can do the flight simulation skills with a keyboard so it can not be that hard.

Maybe there should be a standard for UI controls and to some extent there has been, such as trim IKJLNM , E for go and G for stop. The pilotage comes fairly easily and why shouldn't it. There is basically nothing more than move the stick the direction you want to go. Less complicated than learning to use a mouse. The skills come from being able to land and take off and these are not even needed in AH because it is done for you. Point and shoot. I think you are confusing UI (user interface) controls with pilotage.

However, it has been said and it will be said and I think what is being said is true. You don't just jump into the major leagues on the first day. For a sport or hobby to have any kind of continued interest it has to go major league. It's got to grow up. Do you think AH has grown to its full stature. It's like all the others, they find a winning system and they stick with it. Thats good business but is that what some of you want. Certainly not. Some of us want more and good or bad, there are not that many who want it to change towards greater difficulty.

Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 14, 2010, 10:17:24 PM
Karnak, that's not a learning curve attributable specifically to AH...situational awareneess, aerial combat maneuvers and aerial gunnery are things flight sim gamers learn as they play the game...each game is different as far as what interface the players are given to control their cartoon planes...and AH has an easy mode. With the information in the clipboard, it's just a matter of familiarizing yourself with the controls and picking your plane. Adding something simple like cowl/radiator flaps to cool an engine down would not increase the difficulty of the game to any degree worth noting...nor would making it necessary to have cowl/radiator flaps after the wep has been engaged for an extended period of time rather than the current feature of just losing the ability to engage the wep until the engine cools down...the players on the servers are the most difficult thing in the game.

Think about it...I see people every time I'm on talking smack to someone in a runstang or temp weped up for as long as it lasts and they keep flying until they can land...re-engaging the wep every chance they get the entire time...what if a variable was introduced that made it a 1 in 1000 chance that the engine would quit if wep remained engaged past the overheat point for 10 minutes...but you might be able to prevent it if you disengage wep and open the cowl/radiator flaps to let the engine cool?

That doesn't add anything out of the realm of possibility to the game...leaves the possible end result in the hands of the player...and new people would learn just like they learn about the auto climb function.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 14, 2010, 11:53:55 PM
Karnak, that's not a learning curve attributable specifically to AH...situational awareneess, aerial combat maneuvers and aerial gunnery are things flight sim gamers learn as they play the game
That learning curve in MMO flight combat games is much higher than it is in FPSs or things like MMORPGs like WoW.  There is a lot of complexity that is hidden from casual observers and it allows veteran players to dominate new players much more effectively than in other games.

It isn't specific to AH, but it is specific to AH's genre.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: guncrasher on February 15, 2010, 01:36:40 AM
just so everybody knows, ht included a fail safe into every throttle so as not to damage the engine. ok I am just kidding, but wow I wish stall limitter was either on or off but the same for everybody.

semp
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Old Sport on February 15, 2010, 04:09:56 AM
WEP automatically shuts off after five minutes across the board, for planes with WEP.

Presumably MP could be coaded so that after ?ten minutes? in MP the software would reduce engine power to some high speed cruise setting, and like WEP, require a cool off time.

But that seems to me a tough one, because in AH, WEP is an on/off setting, while throttle is variable. So if you leave your CH throttle pegged, as in MP, the software could enforce a uniform ?five minute? cool off.

But what if you have a somewhat reduced throttle, like 93%, below MP? Then the S/W would have to start calculating for temps. Probably could be worked out fairly, but it would be a chore.

In any case, in WWII combat, if your engine was red line and you got bounced, you doubtless were not worrying about temp restrictions, at least not until after you are clear and on the way home.

So, in a theoretical AH engagement, you use up your MP time and you are in an imposed ?five minute? MP cool off. Would you be able to use WEP if you get bounced or not? In R/L I am sure a pilot would firewall and WEP when applicable.

On the other hand, if you are not going to automatically impose a ?five minute? cool down, then, as several have already mentioned, how do you penalize the MP throttle setting, when engines could run at high power for longer periods than recommended? Ten demerits? (Hey, there's an idea, negative perks!  :D)

Just to mention, the P-38L, from what I understand, and I may be mistaken, is not modeled with actual WEP "power" since engines apparently did not use WEP operationally, even though in game it has a "WEP" setting. IF this is the case, then even though you are actually only reaching MP power when you apply WEP, you are limited to 5 minutes of MP until automatic cool off.

best
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 09:26:11 AM
That learning curve in MMO flight combat games is much higher than it is in FPSs or things like MMORPGs like WoW.  There is a lot of complexity that is hidden from casual observers and it allows veteran players to dominate new players much more effectively than in other games.

It isn't specific to AH, but it is specific to AH's genre.
I think I understand where you're going with that but I'm going to disagree on the basic level...with the exception of aerial combat maneuvers, flight sims are no more difficult to learn than long distance non-scoped sniping or proper room clearing in an FPS...the only "hidden complexity" in AH as with any multi player game is the human opponent...and what I'm talking about is the level of skill and knowledge that human opponent has...otherwise AH is no more difficult to learn than Total War. Learning how to execute a scissor, yo-yo, immelmann or accurately dive bomb are things a person can learn in pretty much any combat flight sim...it's not exclusive to MMO flight sims.

The majority of the players in AH are gamers...all they want to do is pick a plane, find a battle, take off and dogfight or drop bombs...the fastest, most expedient way to do that is preferred over anything more realistic than what exists...and the very small number of people who desire more realistic characteristics have many different ideas and motivations. HT doesn't have the time and most likely zero desire to incorporate anything more complex than what exists now.

Personally, I wouldn't mind having to monitor engine temperature more closely than I do now...if it was done in such a way that didn't push the limits of reality, unlike games like IL2 where engine failure occurs 100% of the time if the temperature gets too high and you continue to push it...engine temp and engine failure in AH are already programmed factors, incorporating a few additional realistic factors would be more programming but doable. Add cowl/radiator flaps to those planes that had them...a few mathematical equations to calculate a probability of say somewhere in the range of 1 in 1000 if critical temperature is reached...and rather than full engine failure occurring 100% of the time that probability hit, add factors like blowing a cylinder, popping a gasket that causes a critical oil leak, destroy a turbo charger so military/wep power can no longer be used, destroyed bearing/bushing, maybe even an engine fire...it would force people to think about the risks a little more before grabbing a plane then running it full wep until the wep turned off then re-engaging it repeatedly until they landed safely or got shot down...even the bombers would be affected...and the end result of a successful sortie would probably mean more than the points gained by doing what's being done now.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Saxman on February 15, 2010, 10:47:27 AM
I disagree...

Simply wanting different heat/overheat for different engine settings isn't a problem. I'd love to see that realistically modeled someday. He's not asking for instant engine explosions if you use wep for 5.0001 minutes, or anything (like another thread).

Many folks do use throttle/rpm settings in-game, but currently only for range/fuel issues. I'd like to see bombers limited to historic power settings. Until we get engine over-heats (and some form of engine wear if levels are exceeded that HTC comes up with and we all accept), bombers run around at speeds comparable to many fighters' top speeds.

Overall it's a decent wish, but given current gameplay limitations and (from what I can tell) given HTC's current line of focus, I don't think we'll see it soon.

Krusty,

The problem is that imposing this sort of restriction to force aircraft to reduce power is probably even LESS realistic and totally artificial. The only ACTUAL effect real pilots saw after exceeding the manual's safety restrictions was it took the engine out of operation as it was disassembled and checked for damage. Something that is NOT reflected in our .ef and get a new plane environment.

Unless you want HTC to impose a "you ignored your safety restrictions, so must sit in the tower for an hour while we check your engine" restriction, there's no way to accurately reflect the real consequences of doing so.

Now, I WOULD like to see some more complex engine management: Fuel mixture, changing the supercharger speeds, and WEP that can permanently run out if appropriate, but overheats cannot be done in a way that's in any way realistic.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: jdbecks on February 15, 2010, 10:59:22 AM
the very small number of people who desire more realistic characteristics have many different ideas and motivations. HT doesn't have the time and most likely zero desire to incorporate anything more complex than what exists now.


That is the exact reason why it wont be added, if someone really desires to play something with " Complex Engine management" they should play another game as well as Aces High
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 15, 2010, 11:41:19 AM
WEP automatically shuts off after five minutes across the board, for planes with WEP.

Presumably MP could be coaded so that after ?ten minutes? in MP the software would reduce engine power to some high speed cruise setting, and like WEP, require a cool off time.

But that seems to me a tough one, because in AH, WEP is an on/off setting, while throttle is variable. So if you leave your CH throttle pegged, as in MP, the software could enforce a uniform ?five minute? cool off.

But what if you have a somewhat reduced throttle, like 93%, below MP? Then the S/W would have to start calculating for temps. Probably could be worked out fairly, but it would be a chore.

In any case, in WWII combat, if your engine was red line and you got bounced, you doubtless were not worrying about temp restrictions, at least not until after you are clear and on the way home.

So, in a theoretical AH engagement, you use up your MP time and you are in an imposed ?five minute? MP cool off. Would you be able to use WEP if you get bounced or not? In R/L I am sure a pilot would firewall and WEP when applicable.

On the other hand, if you are not going to automatically impose a ?five minute? cool down, then, as several have already mentioned, how do you penalize the MP throttle setting, when engines could run at high power for longer periods than recommended? Ten demerits? (Hey, there's an idea, negative perks!  :D)

Just to mention, the P-38L, from what I understand, and I may be mistaken, is not modeled with actual WEP "power" since engines apparently did not use WEP operationally, even though in game it has a "WEP" setting. IF this is the case, then even though you are actually only reaching MP power when you apply WEP, you are limited to 5 minutes of MP until automatic cool off.

best

Every aircraft that I fly in AH and I haven’t flown all of them, but all that have WEP, appear to have it tied to engine temp.  I’ve noticed that once WEP shuts down, if the engine cools, you can run WEP again until the engine reaches max temp.   It also appears that you can do this again and again. 

Perhaps someone from HighTech Creations  can chime in and answer the following question.  Is WEP based on Time or Engine Temp? or a combination of both?

I think the r/l pilots of WWII did what was necessary to stay alive, I know my Dad did.  But they didn’t abuse the equipment, there lives depended on it.  They didn’t zip around the country with the throttle fire walled.     No one did.  They were all faced with the same restrictions on engine performance. 

I am not asking for a more complex engine then already exists.  I’m asking for operational restrictions on that engines performance.   

I don’t believe that new players will fined  it a problem.  They currently have an Engine Performance restriction on WEP and they all seem to manage.   
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Simba on February 15, 2010, 11:51:26 AM
Realistic WW2 flying in Aces High? It'll never happen.

 :cool:
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 15, 2010, 11:52:00 AM
I would to some small degree agree with gyrene81. Where I depart from the general reasoning is that any improvement should be done is very small steps. None of this Monday morning we changed everything kind of stuff. Perhaps giving the pilot some...."some" control over the cooling flaps to have a portion of control over the cooling time from using wep. Currently I just throttle back for a while and imagine this increases the cool down down.

As far as control over the supercharger gears or the turbo settings...actually I found in other sims I did not enjoy it very much. Could be because they didn't provide any kind of pilots manual with the planes so not only did you not know if the plane had chargers, you had no idea of the altitude settings.

Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 12:10:03 PM
jdbecks, you should have quoted the first part of that, where it mentions the gamers, which is more the exact reason why nothing complex would be added...if the tables were turned and more people wanted more complex attributes it would be a different story.


Krusty,

The problem is that imposing this sort of restriction to force aircraft to reduce power is probably even LESS realistic and totally artificial. The only ACTUAL effect real pilots saw after exceeding the manual's safety restrictions was it took the engine out of operation as it was disassembled and checked for damage. Something that is NOT reflected in our .ef and get a new plane environment.
What exactly would you consider within the realm of realistic in forcing toon pile-its to do what real life pilots had to do? You honestly believe airplanes were flown full throttle from the time they took off until they landed hours later? It's not done now with modern airplanes, military or civilian...throttle up to take off, continue until you have attained assigned altitude, level out, throttle back and maintain safe cruising speed.

Safe operation was taught for a reason, because in testing prior to production, and sometimes on the front lines...failures occurred...not 100% of the time but enough to make it into flight instruction manuals as a warning. Aside from the well documented engine failures on the B-29...September 2, 1943, TBD-1 #0353 ditched eight miles off the coast of Miami. Again the cause was engine failure...27 airmen lost in the June 1945 crash of RAF Liberator JT985 flown by a Canadian crew. Bound for the Pacific battlefront, the Liberator went down with engine failure along the Dorset coast...Flight Leader Robert Nelson of the 29th Troop Carrier Squadron who led his flight of three C-47s into combat all alone. They were delayed by an engine failure...(excerpt from a published radio interview with WWII era WASPS - Women Airforce Service Pilots) ETHEL MEYER FINLEY: Thirty-eight women were killed in either training or assignments. Evelyn Sharp out in Oklahoma, that was an engine failure-a P-38. There was one out of Shaw Field. She was out testing a BT-13. They found her; she had crashed. Some of them were pilot error and some were engine problems, and some were collisions. And it was rather a sobering thing, but I don't know that it affected anybody's desire to go out right away again...

I can find this stuff all day long...  :neener:



Unless you want HTC to impose a "you ignored your safety restrictions, so must sit in the tower for an hour while we check your engine" restriction, there's no way to accurately reflect the real consequences of doing so.

Now, I WOULD like to see some more complex engine management: Fuel mixture, changing the supercharger speeds, and WEP that can permanently run out if appropriate, but overheats cannot be done in a way that's in any way realistic.
Yes there is, and I've posted it enough times that I'm not going to repeat it again...and I agree, some small changes in engine management would be nice.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Saxman on February 15, 2010, 12:34:04 PM

Yes there is, and I've posted it enough times that I'm not going to repeat it again...and I agree, some small changes in engine management would be nice.

Fine. The next time you exceed the book restrictions on your power settings on a sortie, YOU can sit around in the tower for a week while your imaginary maintenance crew takes your plane off the flight line to go over its engine with a fine-toothed comb.

It's not that I'm against pilots needing to use cruise and reduced power settings on a sortie--I do it already. On climbout I'm on Normal power. At altitude I'm on cruise until enemies are sighted. I'm only on MIL for takeoffs, combats, and emergencies. I'm against introducing such ARTIFICIAL MEASURES as engine overheats into the game to force pilots to do so when they can be easily done with mechanics already existing:

Tighten the leash on bomber drones so they pop if you exceed that aircraft's level cruise.

Increase the distance between bases so fighters have longer to fly.

Increase the fuel burn to 3.0 or even 4.0.

Heck, you could even use the Perk system and add a "Crew Chief Lambasting" cost at the end of a sortie.

Oh, by the way, do you have any SOURCES that indicate all these examples of "engine failure" were due to pilots ignoring or exceeding the manual safety restrictions? Engine failure can be caused by any NUMBER or reasons. Like inhaling a bird, or any number of the thousands of parts getting passed over in routine inspection. It could have been poor manufacture, or caused by poor materials. The B-29's engines had KNOWN mechanical faults that caused a large number of the failures. It's VERY poor form to cite these cases as "evidence" in favor of imposing ARTIFICIAL MECHANICAL LIMITATIONS when you don't have ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE to ACTUALLY say that a particular case was a matter of pilots not following the book rather than some other source of failure. Because the simple fact is an engine is a complex mechanical object. Complex mechanical objects CAN break even when everything is being operated within its safety limitations.

 :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: jdbecks on February 15, 2010, 12:42:05 PM
jdbecks, you should have quoted the first part of that, where it mentions the gamers, which is more the exact reason why nothing complex would be added...if the tables were turned and more people wanted more complex attributes it would be a different story.

What exactly would you consider within the realm of realistic in forcing toon pile-its to do what real life pilots had to do? You honestly believe airplanes were flown full throttle from the time they took off until they landed hours later? It's not done now with modern airplanes, military or civilian...throttle up to take off, continue until you have attained assigned altitude, level out, throttle back and maintain safe cruising speed.

Safe operation was taught for a reason, because in testing prior to production, and sometimes on the front lines...failures occurred...not 100% of the time but enough to make it into flight instruction manuals as a warning. Aside from the well documented engine failures on the B-29...September 2, 1943, TBD-1 #0353 ditched eight miles off the coast of Miami. Again the cause was engine failure...27 airmen lost in the June 1945 crash of RAF Liberator JT985 flown by a Canadian crew. Bound for the Pacific battlefront, the Liberator went down with engine failure along the Dorset coast...Flight Leader Robert Nelson of the 29th Troop Carrier Squadron who led his flight of three C-47s into combat all alone. They were delayed by an engine failure...(excerpt from a published radio interview with WWII era WASPS - Women Airforce Service Pilots) ETHEL MEYER FINLEY: Thirty-eight women were killed in either training or assignments. Evelyn Sharp out in Oklahoma, that was an engine failure-a P-38. There was one out of Shaw Field. She was out testing a BT-13. They found her; she had crashed. Some of them were pilot error and some were engine problems, and some were collisions. And it was rather a sobering thing, but I don't know that it affected anybody's desire to go out right away again...

I can find this stuff all day long...  :neener:


Yes there is, and I've posted it enough times that I'm not going to repeat it again...and I agree, some small changes in engine management would be nice.

but it does not say, the engine failure was due to the pilot using WEP for a minute or more over pilot books recommended usage.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Old Sport on February 15, 2010, 01:05:53 PM
Traveler, actually I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of temperature reality related to MP as you suggest. I'm just asking how a temp. restriction could be easily implemented in AH. It doesn't look to me like it could be done too easily. If an engine temperature restriction and an enforced cool off is implemented for running MP, it will have a direct effect on many people in the middle of their dogfight who care less. As you say, people do deal with WEP restriction, so it could  be done, HT could implement it, and it's their decision. So far I don't think they care that much about engine restrictions at present.

In any case, as far as getting the restriction coaded, I'm sure you know much more about it than I do, but wouldn't a temperature gradient have to be developed based on altitude? Low alt, hotter, high alt cooler? And then speed based on prop pitch and manifold press? Probably each engine, in each plane, would have to be coaded. That's some coading. But perhaps some basic coad could take care of the main issues and then tweaked for each plane.

Re: WEP - I think currently once the engine gets in the red from WEP it ceases until the engine cools, and that cool down time apparently is always five minutes for all planes, but I may be wrong on that. During the DGS scenario some time ago there were comments that at 30,000 ft a P-47 should probably cool off faster than on the deck, but I seem to recall they were saying it took the same amount of time.

best.

Every aircraft that I fly in AH and I haven’t flown all of them, but all that have WEP, appear to have it tied to engine temp.  I’ve noticed that once WEP shuts down, if the engine cools, you can run WEP again until the engine reaches max temp.   It also appears that you can do this again and again. 

Perhaps someone from HighTech Creations  can chime in and answer the following question.  Is WEP based on Time or Engine Temp? or a combination of both?

I think the r/l pilots of WWII did what was necessary to stay alive, I know my Dad did.  But they didn’t abuse the equipment, there lives depended on it.  They didn’t zip around the country with the throttle fire walled.     No one did.  They were all faced with the same restrictions on engine performance. 

I am not asking for a more complex engine then already exists.  I’m asking for operational restrictions on that engines performance.   

I don’t believe that new players will fined  it a problem.  They currently have an Engine Performance restriction on WEP and they all seem to manage.   

Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 01:16:25 PM
Fine. The next time you exceed the book restrictions on your power settings on a sortie, YOU can sit around in the tower for a week while your imaginary maintenance crew takes your plane off the flight line to go over its engine with a fine-toothed comb.
Why not have that with every day settings...fact is that when a plane returned from a mission, unless there was a military necessity to immediately return to the air upon refueling/rearming, the aircraft were worked on by the mechanics until they were ready for flight...that included going so far as to tear the engine down and rebuild it...but if a spare engine was available, it was put into the plane and tested.



I'm against introducing such ARTIFICIAL MEASURES as engine overheats into the game to force pilots to do so when they can be easily done with mechanics already existing:

Tighten the leash on bomber drones so they pop if you exceed that aircraft's level cruise.

Increase the distance between bases so fighters have longer to fly.

Increase the fuel burn to 3.0 or even 4.0.

Heck, you could even use the Perk system and add a "Crew Chief Lambasting" cost at the end of a sortie.
How is an engine overheating artificial? Please explain that...how is killing bomber drones, or increasing the fuel burn multiplier not artificial?



Oh, by the way, do you have any SOURCES that indicate all these examples of "engine failure" were due to pilots ignoring or exceeding the manual safety restrictions? Engine failure can be caused by any NUMBER or reasons. Like inhaling a bird, or any number of the thousands of parts getting passed over in routine inspection. It could have been poor manufacture, or caused by poor materials. The B-29's engines had KNOWN mechanical faults that caused a large number of the failures. It's VERY poor form to cite these cases as "evidence" in favor of imposing ARTIFICIAL MECHANICAL LIMITATIONS when you don't have ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE to ACTUALLY say that a particular case was a matter of pilots not following the book rather than some other source of failure. Because the simple fact is an engine is a complex mechanical object. Complex mechanical objects CAN break even when everything is being operated within its safety limitations.
Just so you know - the engine failures on the B-29s came from bad designs on the cowl and cowl flaps that cause engine overheats, particularly during take off and I quote:

Quote
These weaknesses combined to make an engine that would overheat regularly at combat weights, particularly during climbs after takeoff. Unseated valves released fuel-air mixtures during engine combustion that acted as a blowtorch against the valve stems. When these burned through the engines disintegrated and caught fire. A fire that was not immediately contained in the forward part of the engine by fire extinguishers became impossible to put out. An accessory housing manufactured of magnesium alloy in the back of the engine would often catch fire and produce heat so intense it burned through the firewall to the main wing spar in no more than 90 seconds, resulting in catastrophic failure of the wing.

This problem would not be fully cured until the aircraft was re-engined with the more powerful Pratt & Whitney R-4360 "Wasp Major" in the B-29D/B-50 program, which arrived too late for World War II. Interim measures included cuffs placed on propeller blades to divert a greater flow of cooling air into the intakes, which had baffles installed to direct a stream of air onto the exhaust valves. Oil flow to the valves was also increased, asbestos baffles installed around rubber push rod fittings to prevent oil loss, thorough pre-flight inspections made to detect unseated valves, and frequent replacement of the uppermost five cylinders (every 25 hours of engine time) and the entire engines (every 75 hours).


And  :neener:  :P  :neener:  :P  :neener:  :P  :neener:  :P  :D

you have NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE THAT CAN DISPUTE THE FACT THAT ENGINE OVERHEATING CAUSED ENOUGH VARIOUS ENGINE FAILURES TO WARRANT WARNINGS IN FLIGHT MANUALS...I don't need any evidence, it's a known fact, excessive heat in a piston engine regardless of how well it's built can cause component failure...there is always a weak spot...artificial limitations already exist in AH...war emergency power was not something that turned off due to engine temperature then allowed the pilot to re-engage it when the engine cooled down...almost all German, British and U.S. aircraft had cowling and/or radiator flaps to cool the engines off, they don't exist in AH therefore the cooling of the engines from critical temps is artificial...documented fact, the biggest design flaw on early FW190s was the cowling which caused the engine to overheat under normal operating conditions and fail...all aircraft were subject to excessive engine heat if kept at full military power for extended periods of time, it is artificial to allow the aircraft in AH to be flown in full military power and maintain safe operating temperatures.

I can go on...  :devil





but it does not say, the engine failure was due to the pilot using WEP for a minute or more over pilot books recommended usage.
You are quite correct sir...but then none of the aircraft I noted in that had WEP...and I never said engaging WEP a minute or more over flight manual specs would absolutely cause engine failure...not even going to delve into the obvious chain reaction thing there.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: hitech on February 15, 2010, 01:23:07 PM
Most people do not understand the WEP restrictions. WEP is time based but is shown as temperature.

Planes do not have unlimited wep and all planes are not the same.

The P51D has 10 mins (600 secs) of total wep time, and 5 mins or continues wep time. Would have to look at the cool down rate. The equates to 5 mins wep, if you cool down all the way you get another 5 mins, but then no more.


The 4Fu has 480 secs of total wep with (not positive) 5 mins of max continues.

The system will simulate both consumable wep (i.e. nitrous or water) , or simply rpms and MP above normal mil power.

HiTech

Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 15, 2010, 02:13:12 PM
Quote
Fine. The next time you exceed the book restrictions on your power settings on a sortie, YOU can sit around in the tower for a week while your imaginary maintenance crew takes your plane off the flight line to go over its engine with a fine-toothed comb.

Why do you text that Saxman...you know thats unreasonable and it is obvious to you that there are other ways. Why draw things out of proportion. It is not unreasonable to assume that in real life a pilot would use fly another plane while his bird was broken. Why text things which are totally inconsistant with thoughtful reasoning. What the hells wrong with you.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Saxman on February 15, 2010, 03:15:57 PM
What the hells wrong with you.

Plenty.

But in this case that's EXACTLY the effect most pilots would see if they pushed their engine beyond the manufacturer's recommended operating limits. Their crew chief would chew them out and the engine would get torn down for a couple weeks while it was checked and rechecked, then put back together a piece at a time to make sure everything is working normally. The concept of an engine ALWAYS failing over the course of a single sortie when operated outside those limits is by FAR less realistic than leaving things the way they are, and if gyrene INSISTS on having a legitimate penalty for pushing the engine, then well that's EXACTLY what the average result would have been.

It's been discussed time and time again, and no one seems to want to listen to the guys who've spent hundreds of hours with these types of engines (Widewing in particular comes to mind. Who do YOU believe? Someone like WW who actually WORKS on these engines, or the programmer for Il-2 or Target: Rabaul?). The impact of pushing the engine in this matter is NOT something that typically caused it to "break" over the course of a single flight. DID it happen occasionally? Possibly, yes. There's a LOT of moving parts in there and it doesn't take much being out of allignment to blow the whole thing. But that usually indicates that something ALREADY wasn't right with the engine when the plane was warming up, not something that developed when the pilot redlined longer than the manufacturer's recommendations allowed.

More often than not THAT sort of failure would have been the result of something that would have accumulated over time. As in multiple sorties. Substandard parts, haphazard maintenance, parts not being changed out in a timely fashion whether due to neglect or lack of availability of replacements. The reason that an engine that exceeded its safety restrictions was torn down and checked out was PRECISELY to prevent these sorts of issues in the first place. Damaged or burned out parts would have been repaired or replaced before the engine was released back into service.

Unless you want to add this sort aircraft maintenance to the game there's NO place for factors such as overheats or power level restrictions for anything other than fuel economy and formation flying.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 04:11:02 PM
And what you fail to note there Saxman is that you have repeatedly failed to actually read anything that has been stated outside of what you think is reality...you need to look at the bigger picture.

Plenty.

But in this case that's EXACTLY the effect most pilots would see if they pushed their engine beyond the manufacturer's recommended operating limits. Their crew chief would chew them out and the engine would get torn down for a couple weeks while it was checked and rechecked, then put back together a piece at a time to make sure everything is working normally. The concept of an engine ALWAYS failing over the course of a single sortie when operated outside those limits is by FAR less realistic than leaving things the way they are, and if gyrene INSISTS on having a legitimate penalty for pushing the engine, then well that's EXACTLY what the average result would have been.

Nobody said an aircraft engine would ALWAYS fail due to high internal heat when everything else is where it should be...but you can exagerate all you want.

FACT: a pilot was rarely grounded due to engine failure by pushing the engine past recommended limits or broke down for any reason...the engine was usually replaced with a spare new or rebuilt engine if a complete overhaul was required...

FACT: pilots rarely ran their engines up to higher than operational temperatures because they were very aware of the possible results if they did and they had the mechanisms on the aircraft to prevent overheating if they were able to employ them...and it was very rare that they couldn't.

FACT: an engine failure in combat was usually fatal...so few pilots returned and none returned to publicly announce the reason they got shot down was because the engine failed from over heating...if it was a combat situation, and the pilot survived, the failure was attributed to being fired at with a gun...if it was a non-combat situation and the pilot survived it was attributed to "pilot error" or "mechanical failure"...if the plane was able to be brought back to the field and the cause investigated, any sign of oil or coolant leakage, or broken parts, it was noted as the "official cause".


It's been discussed time and time again, and no one seems to want to listen to the guys who've spent hundreds of hours with these types of engines (Widewing in particular comes to mind. Who do YOU believe? Someone like WW who actually WORKS on these engines, or the programmer for Il-2 or Target: Rabaul?). The impact of pushing the engine in this matter is NOT something that typically caused it to "break" over the course of a single flight. DID it happen occasionally? Possibly, yes. There's a LOT of moving parts in there and it doesn't take much being out of allignment to blow the whole thing. But that usually indicates that something ALREADY wasn't right with the engine when the plane was warming up, not something that developed when the pilot redlined longer than the manufacturer's recommendations allowed.

More often than not THAT sort of failure would have been the result of something that would have accumulated over time. As in multiple sorties. Substandard parts, haphazard maintenance, parts not being changed out in a timely fashion whether due to neglect or lack of availability of replacements. The reason that an engine that exceeded its safety restrictions was torn down and checked out was PRECISELY to prevent these sorts of issues in the first place. Damaged or burned out parts would have been repaired or replaced before the engine was released back into service.
Exactly what I have been saying all along...and excessive heat would exacerbate the problem to the point where failure would be more likely to occur, but generally it just caused a minor issue and continued to run until a mechanic found it. You seem to believe that aircraft engines were so perfect they could withstand heat better than a modern engine could, regardless of the circumstances...absolutely not the case...hence the reason the regular overhaul maintenance was set to 50 hours of combat operations and ground crews worked on the engines after every mission.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 15, 2010, 05:31:08 PM
You seem to believe that aircraft engines were so perfect they could withstand heat better than a modern engine could, regardless of the circumstances...absolutely not the case...hence the reason the regular overhaul maintenance was set to 50 hours of combat operations and ground crews worked on the engines after every mission.
You on the other hand seem to believe that engines exploded the movement the limitations in the Pilot's Handbook were exceeded.

Or maybe what you said about Saxman is a blatant exaggeration just like my statement is about you.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Krusty on February 15, 2010, 05:38:12 PM
Karnak:

Ah models what pilots did, not necessarily what they "could" do... We don't have 20mms on P-40s, but they "could have" carried 'em. We don't have flaps above flap deploy speeds, despite what a pilot "could do" with the levers at any time in flight. Ah follows the 5 minute (or 10 or 3) WEP times based on what pilots were told to in the manuals.

I don't like the idea of just running all the time at full power with no implications. I don't like artificial overheats/engine deaths. Neither is perfect, but I wish we could find some sort of middle ground to at least replicate what the pilots did in the real war (not the combat, just the plane performance).

Personally I'd love to see some sort of system whereby limping home with a damaged plane is possible with reduced power (lower heat) but not possible with the current system. More of a "this would be cool" feature tying radiators, oil, engines, cooling flaps (maybe) and temperature readouts into the damage model. Not all-out, but something.

Gyrene, this is ridiculous man... I stopped reading the OTHER thread you two were harping in because you're both spouting the same ignorant stuff left and right. An engine failure is caused by human error. Either a part was skipped in inspection (a human inspector failed to look) or a part was assembled incorrectly (a human mechanic failed to do it properly, his boss failed to check up on the work) or a part was defective (a human failed at some point in creating the part in a forge, his QA failed to spot it, the crew chiefs failed to check it before installation, any dozens of other people on the logistics chain didn't do their job).

So you want to include random engine failures, then you have to model human error. How about every time you roll a B-17 there's a random chance you'll just crash on the runway because "human error" meant you skipped the checklist for unlocking the tail lock? How about your ground crew made a "human error" and left screwdrivers in your wings and your ammo doesn't feed? How about your weapons officer made a "human error" and locked your DTs or bombs to the rack so they won't ever come off? How about that random kind of crap? I don't see you advocating the "sh** happens" game design model, because frankly it's retarded.

Asking for random engine failures is equally retarded. Failures for a reason is one thing, but the random number-generation pattern you want is wrong and always has been.

You look behind all those engine failures you quoted (I merely skimmed) and you'll find a human error along the chain of thousands and thousands of humans that did something to that plane or that engine, the last one being the pilot/crew of said plane. One of those human chain links screwed something up. It wasn't just fate.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 05:39:27 PM
You on the other hand seem to believe that engines exploded the movement the limitations in the Pilot's Handbook were exceeded.

Or maybe what you said about Saxman is a blatant exaggeration just like my statement is about you.
I didn't over exaggerate anything about Saxman...or did you miss something.


Unless you want to add this sort aircraft maintenance to the game there's NO place for factors such as overheats or power level restrictions for anything other than fuel economy and formation flying.

Fine. The next time you exceed the book restrictions on your power settings on a sortie, YOU can sit around in the tower for a week while your imaginary maintenance crew takes your plane off the flight line to go over its engine with a fine-toothed comb.

It's VERY poor form to cite these cases as "evidence" in favor of imposing ARTIFICIAL MECHANICAL LIMITATIONS when you don't have ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE to ACTUALLY say that a particular case was a matter of pilots not following the book rather than some other source of failure. Because the simple fact is an engine is a complex mechanical object. Complex mechanical objects CAN break even when everything is being operated within its safety limitations.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 15, 2010, 05:51:35 PM
None of that supports your claim that Saxman thinks WWII engines were perfect.

Random failures, or failures caused by players doing things that would only very rarely have resulted in failures, are not a good thing for the game.  What you are basically saying is that fights in AH, using a Spitfire Mk XVI as an example, should be fought at +7lbs boost, as though it were a restored warbird in 2010, not +18lbs boost, as though it were a top line combat aircraft in 1944.


A method to encourage using cruise settings is another story.  Say, the higher your boost setting the higher the temperature the engine settles on and thus the lower the WEP time you have once you enter combat.  That would enable cruising to the combat area to give you a little more WEP time than somebody who flew to the combat area on MIL settings.

As for bombers, they almost need to have a WEP system put in place that replaces their current MIL settings and their MIL settings in AH to be at one of their higher historical cruise settings.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Wingnutt on February 15, 2010, 06:01:10 PM
to address 2 things ive seen regarding WEP in AH.

1: wep is not 5 min across the board.  109s and 190s get 9 min, the japenese AC get.. ???  (never fly them) american AC all get 5 min max continuous AFAIK.

2: WEP run time is based on temp.  once you run her into the red and WEP automatically shuts off, if you let her cool back down you can run WEP again.. till she gets to hot again.
this process can be repeated as many times as you have fuel for.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 06:08:33 PM
Krusty, I have yet to say anything about random anything in either of these threads...every failure has an underlying cause...and strangely enough you and saxman seem to be overlooking what you are saying.

Your point: defect in manufacturing

Illustration:
Is a piston rod with a hairline fracture likely to break under stress? Yes eventually.
Would repeated exposure to high rpms and excessive heat contribute to it's failure faster than normal operation? Yes

The end result of that failure either way is the engine ceases to function properly either completely or partially.


Your point: human error in maintenance

Illustration:
If a mechanic doesn't secure a head gasket properly is it likely to leak oil or blow out? Yes eventually
Would that failure be exacerbated by repeated exposure to higher than normal rpms and heat? Yes

The end result is a possible engine failure if the problem is not corrected.


Yes human error would be at the root of any failure...and statisically it did not occur often...but to sit here and state that it never happened is total b.s. Whether it happened in testing during the design phase, or during the manufacturing phase, or test flights or in combat...engine failures attributed to higher than normal rpms and heat occurred enough for the manuals to have the warnings in them...and pilots followed those warnings consistently when possible...furthermore it is very well documented that engine heat was one of the biggest hurdles to overcome in aircraft design, especially with fighters...if it wasn't considered a factor nothing would have been changed to prevent engine overheating.



I would not want random total engine failure to be programmed into AH and I have been blatantly clear about that...actually I wouldn't want anything random at all...it would have to be based on percentages...and things like cowl and radiator flaps would have to be incorporated.

Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Krusty on February 15, 2010, 06:17:28 PM
I'm saying the ONLY way to model random engine failures (especially if you exceed WEP time limits) is to model human error. To pretend you want engines failing in-flight, but not the billions of other rarely-ever-happened human errors that caused loss of life, loss of airframe, loss of resources, is 100% hypocritical.

It's like saying "I want to model human error, but only where I want it, to fit my view of how engines should fail, and not in any other way."
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 15, 2010, 06:32:35 PM
I would not want random total engine failure to be programmed into AH and I have been blatantly clear about that...actually I wouldn't want anything random at all...it would have to be based on percentages...and things like cowl and radiator flaps would have to be incorporated.

In other words, you want us to have to baby the engines like they are old, restored warbirds, not front line fighters being used in an actual war.

Also, your comment about cowl and radiator flaps makes it clear you really don't know how these engines worked and just want complexity stuff added, not realism.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 06:50:49 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 15, 2010, 06:52:43 PM
Geez you are full of erroneous information aren't you? Care to try and educate me on how cowl flaps worked and what their purpose was? How about the radiator flaps?



It's very obvious you know less than I do about how piston aircraft engines worked...or any engines for that matter.
You seem to think they magically stopped the extremely fragile engines from breaking, which you think they would do almost immediately on exceeding the limits in the pilots handbook.

Here's a hint for you, Il-2 is not a valid source of data.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Saxman on February 15, 2010, 06:55:46 PM
In other words, you want us to have to baby the engines like they are old, restored warbirds, not front line fighters being used in an actual war.

Also, your comment about cowl and radiator flaps makes it clear you really don't know how these engines worked and just want complexity stuff added, not realism.

I'd like to know what he DOES want, then. Without having to hunt through the 20-odd pages of the LAST thread on this subject. Because he's not being very clear OR consistent.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 07:01:21 PM
You seem to think they magically stopped the extremely fragile engines from breaking, which you think they would do almost immediately on exceeding the limits in the pilots handbook.

Here's a hint for you, Il-2 is not a valid source of data.
LOL...like I suspected.

IL2 doesn't model "magical" engine temperature recovery...I've tried it...perhaps you haven't. And I never once stated WWII aircraft engines were fragile.

So you have the information for future use, cowl flaps were used increase the airflow across the cylinder heads and thus maximizing engine cooling...they were primarily used during take offs, landings, and extended climbs...they did not produce an immediate cooling to normal operating temperatures.

Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 15, 2010, 07:01:51 PM
Geez you are full of erroneous information aren't you? Care to try and educate me on how cowl flaps worked and what their purpose was? How about the radiator flaps?



It's very obvious you know less than I do about how piston aircraft engines worked...or any engines for that matter.

Cowl flaps were used on air cooled engines to help regulate the engine temp.  Actually to maintain the engine temp in the normal operating range.  Remember the air temp at 25K is well below zero.

The radiator flaps were used on the liquid cooled engines also to maintain the temp of the liquid in the radiator.   Again you wouldn’t want 35 degree liquid streaming through a very hot engine, just might crake the block.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 07:13:02 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 15, 2010, 07:16:25 PM
LOL...like I suspected.

IL2 doesn't model "magical" engine temperature recovery...I've tried it...perhaps you haven't. And I never once stated WWII aircraft engines were fragile.

So you have the information for future use, cowl flaps were used increase the airflow across the cylinder heads and thus maximizing engine cooling...they were primarily used during take offs, landings, and extended climbs...they did not produce an immediate cooling to normal operating temperatures.


So your source is Il-2.

You might want to do some actual research on what you are requesting.  Il-2's game mechanisms are, if anything, less realistic than AH.

Yes, unlike you I seem to be at least somewhat familiar with the equipment we are talking about and not just parroting a video game's mechanisms.



Do you really think that pilots of WWII fighters were, in the middle of combat, flipping their cowl/radiator flaps open and shut, watching the engine temperature, constantly and such?  Not one account I have read described that and not one pilot I have talked to even mentioned it.  The only pilot mention I can recall is laughing dismissal of your position by a P-38 pilot. His claim was that in combat you put the throttles through the gate and left them there until the fight was over.

Obviously some aircraft it wasn't an issue as the flaps were sometimes automatic.  The Spitfire Mk XIV's radiator flaps were automatic.  I am not certain of earlier Spitfires, but I'd not be surprised if they were also automatic.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 15, 2010, 07:36:56 PM
So your source is Il-2.

You might want to do some actual research on what you are requesting.  Il-2's game mechanisms are, if anything, less realistic than AH.

Yes, unlike you I seem to be at least somewhat familiar with the equipment we are talking about and not just parroting a video game's mechanisms.
You're not even close. Do you always inject your own meanings to what people say?


Do you really think that pilots of WWII fighters were, in the middle of combat, flipping their cowl/radiator flaps open and shut, watching the engine temperature, constantly and such?  Not one account I have read described that and not one pilot I have talked to even mentioned it.  The only pilot mention I can recall is laughing dismissal of your position by a P-38 pilot. His claim was that in combat you put the throttles through the gate and left them there until the fight was over.
Considering most air battles lasted less than 30 minutes and the P-38 used turbos instead of an injection based WEP system, keeping the throttle pushed through the gate during an air battle would pretty much be SOP...but I guarantee you that pilot you're using as a reference did not keep it firewalled all the way back to base...he wanted to survive. Obviously a pilot isn't going to watch his engine temperature in the heat of battle, but as soon as he was clear of the situation, he was definately checking his gauges...and if the gauges told him there was a problem he was calculating whether he could make it back to his base or looking for a safe place to land.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 15, 2010, 09:44:35 PM
Quote
Yes human error would be at the root of any failure...

When you engineer something you establish its usable life. Think warranty. Engineering uses tables and formula to establish certain ratios and one is price and quality. Stuff breaks because the materials that make it low priced make it affordable and the engineers know it will last a certain length of time. NOW LISTEN. That certain length of time is based on average material properties. It is not based on super materials, it is not based on bad tooling. Its based on STANDARDS. When you purchase raw polymer from one compounder to another you ask for its specifications sheet and its price. The engineer sees one has a better secant modulus than the other with the same price and that's what goes on the drawings. Now each part in a machine is handled the same way. Each has a STANDARD. When it comes to engines the standards are much tougher as the performance goes up the price goes up according to the better materials. Some of these materials have very little chance of human error. That's why they cost so much more.

There is no reason why simulation failure should venture off the engineering sheets. These specifications dictate how something will be made and its expected durability and usable life. This is all point for point, number for number. When the metal reaches the yield point, a specific point where stress and strain are worked out to the decimal, then the metal deforms. There is no human error involved it is strictly mathematics. There is a hypothetical point established by tests ASTM in example where things fail, including oil, all kinds of oil under all kinds of conditions. The point where it will not lubricate is known and when you take surface area and pressure and you know these things on a crankshaft and then you calculate how long the babits would last without lubricant, that is when the lubricant is squashed away, then you can establish at what force, the maximum force these things wear down and that establishes how long you can push them. I keep getting this feeling you think there is some kind of guess work involved in engineering. There isn't. I keep telling you , it is possible to make 4000hp but the materials are not affordable and the time to manufacture unreasonable.

BTW these formula are the same for Germany as they are for anyone else.

 
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 15, 2010, 09:56:37 PM
Quote
Do you really think that pilots of WWII fighters were, in the middle of combat, flipping their cowl/radiator flaps open and shut, watching the engine temperature, constantly and such?

@Karnak....Is it important for aircombat simulations to emulate this if it was?
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Saxman on February 15, 2010, 10:49:03 PM
You should try reading with some level of comprehension rather than just react and interject what you perceive to be factual...and if you're not going to make an attempt to comprehend, then don't bother replying.


Trying to add anything more in depth than picking a toon plane, taking off and stirring the stick is like Galileo convincing the Catholic church that the earth revolves around the sun.

You should try responding with a degree of maturity instead of resorting to the same lame personal attacks ad nauseum. Let's see where we started with all this, shall we?

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Saxman on Today at 10:47:27 AM
Krusty,

The problem is that imposing this sort of restriction to force aircraft to reduce power is probably even LESS realistic and totally artificial. The only ACTUAL effect real pilots saw after exceeding the manual's safety restrictions was it took the engine out of operation as it was disassembled and checked for damage. Something that is NOT reflected in our .ef and get a new plane environment.
What exactly would you consider within the realm of realistic in forcing toon pile-its to do what real life pilots had to do? You honestly believe airplanes were flown full throttle from the time they took off until they landed hours later? It's not done now with modern airplanes, military or civilian...throttle up to take off, continue until you have attained assigned altitude, level out, throttle back and maintain safe cruising speed.

Safe operation was taught for a reason, because in testing prior to production, and sometimes on the front lines...failures occurred...not 100% of the time but enough to make it into flight instruction manuals as a warning. Aside from the well documented engine failures on the B-29...September 2, 1943, TBD-1 #0353 ditched eight miles off the coast of Miami. Again the cause was engine failure...27 airmen lost in the June 1945 crash of RAF Liberator JT985 flown by a Canadian crew. Bound for the Pacific battlefront, the Liberator went down with engine failure along the Dorset coast...Flight Leader Robert Nelson of the 29th Troop Carrier Squadron who led his flight of three C-47s into combat all alone. They were delayed by an engine failure...(excerpt from a published radio interview with WWII era WASPS - Women Airforce Service Pilots) ETHEL MEYER FINLEY: Thirty-eight women were killed in either training or assignments. Evelyn Sharp out in Oklahoma, that was an engine failure-a P-38. There was one out of Shaw Field. She was out testing a BT-13. They found her; she had crashed. Some of them were pilot error and some were engine problems, and some were collisions. And it was rather a sobering thing, but I don't know that it affected anybody's desire to go out right away again...

I can find this stuff all day long...  neener



Quote
Quote from: Saxman on Today at 10:47:27 AM
Unless you want HTC to impose a "you ignored your safety restrictions, so must sit in the tower for an hour while we check your engine" restriction, there's no way to accurately reflect the real consequences of doing so.

Now, I WOULD like to see some more complex engine management: Fuel mixture, changing the supercharger speeds, and WEP that can permanently run out if appropriate, but overheats cannot be done in a way that's in any way realistic.
Yes there is, and I've posted it enough times that I'm not going to repeat it again...and I agree, some small changes in engine management would be nice.

My comment wasn't even in RESPONSE to anything you said, and right away you start off with smart-assed comments and :neener: ing like a 2-year-old.

Now, how about you explain it for me just EXACTLY where in that diatribe about crashes caused by engine failure with absolutely no sources indicating the CAUSES of said engine failure what you believe is an appropriate means of forcing players to limit their engine power. You might need to explain it to me very slowly, because OBVIOUSLY I lack your reading comprehension.

Oh wait. You DIDN'T. Apparently your theories on how to enforce engine management are SO mind-bogglingly profound that there was no need to repost them.

All you've done in this thread is rant about how no one here knows NEARLY as much about piston-engines as you do, so everything anyone else says is wrong.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 12:37:57 AM
So Saxman....you have made your point and don't forget what your point is. Make sure you let everyone know, you were one of the people who were against what? Saxman was one of the vocal minority/majority who were firmly against to the point of going into a rage that fligth sims, at least fligth sims that he pays to use shall not have....What...fill in the blank here so I can right it down. And don't think in 10 / 20 years in the future I won't drag it up and show everyone what your point is. However, at this time....I am not going to put words in your mouth but I think you are saying you don't want flight sims to have more than a "P" for WEP lasting according to a timer. IS THAT CORRECT. Don't try changing your handle as we have ways of finding out. Goes for the rest of you.

Tell you about a guy named Yak. Years ago was no way on earth his sims were going to have work done by players. So guess what. There is a guy named Yak working over at TW getting paid because he is the expert on getting players work into the game. After bullying and foul mouthing the people trying to bring it forward. I've seen all this crap before. Like I said. You say what you want...just don't expect me to forget it. I have posts from bulletin boards going back years.

Now lets start again about what you want in the sim and what you think can't be done by Hitech et al.

Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Guppy35 on February 16, 2010, 12:52:43 AM
Raster you seem to be not getting it.  Some of us don't have the time nor the energy to want to spend on trivial aspects of what in the end is a cartoon game of pretend fighter pilots.

You want talk the history, the pilots, the planes, the ground crews etc, I'll go all day and beyond, but when I get an hour here or there to go fly with the guys who share a like interest in that WW2 aviation history, I don't want to spend it on what would add nothing to the immersion and fun I get from the 'game'.

I'm not a WW2 fighter pilot.  I have no interest in getting up in the middle of the night, eating powdered eggs, lousy bacon and coffee, before going to briefing, then out to my bird, going through all the preflight stuff, then waiting for the signal from the tower to taxi, then the form up time with my squadron, followed by fighting weather, sucking oxygen, worrying that my engine might act up, that my guns might fail, that my bladder might overflow, that my backside goes numb, that frost covers my windscreen, that my pitot head might fail, radio might fail, instruments might fail, that the mission might be recalled, that my oxygen might fail, that my control cables might give, that I might spend 7 hours in flight and never see a bandit, that any of the above might force me down in enemy territory or worse yet that I'll really die......etc etc etc.

Oh, and I don't want someone else deciding that I have no choice on what I fly, for which side, and what my mission is.

You get the idea?


I'd suggest that HTC has done a good job letting my imaginary fighter pilot, pretend to fly my cartoon P38G and somehow survive to fly and fight another day.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Krusty on February 16, 2010, 01:04:45 AM
Raster's also not getting the point on the failure issue...

There are standards for the parts, as you suggest. All the uses for which these parts were built, even in the worst of conditions, fall far far short of the failing points. The constant every-day inspections, every-day repairs, maintenance, constant strip-down, overhauls, engine replacements (with new factory fresh engines) means that at almost no point will a sub-par part/piece/component be put into an engine like we're talking about, unless some HUMAN somewhere made an ERROR.

We're not talking "the chemical bonds broke down after 50 years of use" we're talking "we put a new rod in every couple weeks" and the like.

The 4000hp example only further illustrates my point: The failure points are so retardedly above anything any of these engines will or did do in WW2 that by running them within the rules and limitations of Aces High's power levels, you will NEVER reach any of the failing points you're talking about.

It's like I said in another thread, you're worrying about modeling the landing situation on the moon when the highest you can get is 50,000 feet. It doesn't add up to a hill of beans.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Delirium on February 16, 2010, 01:07:12 AM
that my bladder might overflow, that my backside goes numb,

Hey! I get those two and I don't even fly 'em for real. That reminds me of a certain scenario years ago where I used gatoraid bottles because of the long flight we had during a frame. I laughed a little harder because I wasn't the only one that did it.

A happy medium has to be reached between realism and fun, I think AH manages it beautifully. If some of you don't think so, the next time you get shot down, cancel your account and I'd be happy to write a letter to your widow.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: jdbecks on February 16, 2010, 02:07:06 AM
I think Rasta is playing the wrong game.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 16, 2010, 02:56:03 AM
Do you really think that pilots of WWII fighters were, in the middle of combat, flipping their cowl/radiator flaps open and shut, watching the engine temperature, constantly and such?  Not one account I have read described that and not one pilot I have talked to even mentioned it.  The only pilot mention I can recall is laughing dismissal of your position by a P-38 pilot. His claim was that in combat you put the throttles through the gate and left them there until the fight was over.

The answer to your question is Yes.  They didn't constantly watch any gauge , but did take a quick look at a lot of gauges during an instrument sweep with their eyes.  And during combat they were constantly adjusting power.  There were restrictions on dive speeds and they keep close tabs on airspeed and g meters.  That I learned first hand from my Dad, he flew P47’s and later P51’s.  When Dad taught me to fly in a J3, he showed me that the power level set in a certain position would always yield a certain RPM and I didn’t need to see the RPM gauge. I just had to remember what the setting felt like in my hand.  That produced muscle memory and I learned where the power lever needed to be set for take off power, cruise and approach.  I didn’t need to see the gauge.  Something that is not easily done in a J3 because the Command pilot sits in the back and with my Dad in front I had a very hard time seeing any of the gauges.   The same goes for fighter aircraft, the pilots didn’t set power so much by looking at a gauge, but rather the position of the power controls, they could feel it.

When I spent those years ferrying those war birds to air shows I could feel that the power controls were in the proper setting and only needed a glance at manifold and RPM gauges.

Shortly before my father’s death he spent two summers flying with me on ferry missions of  a T6.  I learned a lot about flying from my Dad.    He could still roll and loop with the best of them and keep all the coffee in the cup.

Just listen to this all the warning about the F6F operation an  limits  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVtVynNk6SU
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Peyton on February 16, 2010, 09:50:49 AM
Raster you seem to be not getting it.  Some of us don't have the time nor the energy to want to spend on trivial aspects of what in the end is a cartoon game of pretend fighter pilots.

You want talk the history, the pilots, the planes, the ground crews etc, I'll go all day and beyond, but when I get an hour here or there to go fly with the guys who share a like interest in that WW2 aviation history, I don't want to spend it on what would add nothing to the immersion and fun I get from the 'game'.

I'm not a WW2 fighter pilot.  I have no interest in getting up in the middle of the night, eating powdered eggs, lousy bacon and coffee, before going to briefing, then out to my bird, going through all the preflight stuff, then waiting for the signal from the tower to taxi, then the form up time with my squadron, followed by fighting weather, sucking oxygen, worrying that my engine might act up, that my guns might fail, that my bladder might overflow, that my backside goes numb, that frost covers my windscreen, that my pitot head might fail, radio might fail, instruments might fail, that the mission might be recalled, that my oxygen might fail, that my control cables might give, that I might spend 7 hours in flight and never see a bandit, that any of the above might force me down in enemy territory or worse yet that I'll really die......etc etc etc.

Oh, and I don't want someone else deciding that I have no choice on what I fly, for which side, and what my mission is.

You get the idea?


I'd suggest that HTC has done a good job letting my imaginary fighter pilot, pretend to fly my cartoon P38G and somehow survive to fly and fight another day.





AMEN
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Peyton on February 16, 2010, 10:00:03 AM
You should try reading with some level of comprehension rather than just react and interject what you perceive to be factual...and if you're not going to make an attempt to comprehend, then don't bother replying.


Trying to add anything more in depth than picking a toon plane, taking off and stirring the stick is like Galileo convincing the Catholic church that the earth revolves around the sun.


I have an idea for you so you can enjoy and add some realism to the game in the meantime. How about your pilot has to take a physical every month before you pay your subscription dues.  An AH representative will come to your house and draw blood, collect your pee in a cup, weigh you, check your eyesight, and check your log book.  After the results come back you can or cannot fly for a month.  This will be repeated monthly so you can keep your flight status operable.

Sound good for realism to hold you over????

By the way...With all the hard work these modders do I don't know if I would refer to their work as "TOON PLANES".
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 16, 2010, 10:40:36 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: hitech on February 16, 2010, 11:23:04 AM
Why is it when someone makes any attempt to bring just one iota of something more realistic than grab a toonplane and become an instant pile-it ace, people (and I use that word loosely) around here have to exaggerate the idea to the point of being a*holes? Try thinking like an intelligent human once before you post something that illustrates a lack of intelligence.

We all know it's a friggin game...and it can be improved upon without going to extremes if intelligent people carefully consider the possibilities and the consequences of change implementations...and the only way to do that is with intelligent conversation.


The next time you diss someone for doing something "unrealistic" in the arenas or shoot someone's wishlist idea down because it's not "realistic"...remember you words of wannabe wisdom here.


Because many people use the word REALISM to mean more difficult. This is a great example of that use of the word. While you state on a theoretical level failure rate curves can be made with which I do not disagree,you then assume failure rate curves based on all conditions of flight for these planes could be made, and hence state that you are only after realism and want things changed.

Raster tries make the argument because things did fail in flight it is unrealistic to be able to run your plane at mill power all the time.

No one in this entire discussion has brought any realism to the argument. Has anyone found any real data on one plane ,what real faillure rates would be for any paticular plane in any specific condition sets?

When we did research on this topic and how to do the modeling. What we found was that the odds of your engine failing when running the complete flight at mill power was extremely low.We found test of engines being run at full WEP settings for 40 hours with no failures So how is it in any way realistic to make a plane fail every time when you fly continuously at mill settings?

Now consider what would really be needed to model engine temps and failures.
Lets speak only of engine temps, do you believe you can find data on even 10% of the plane set that gives real numbers that can be used for heating and cooling rates?

Now lets assume you could find these rates, next you would have to find failure rates based on accumulated and continuous runs at different RPM and temps and pressures.

So you go threw all this work, only to come out with that assume best condition plane, the failure rate is 1 chance for 50 hours of flight.

Mill settings were set where they were for a reason,they are NOT wep settings. They didn't choose pressures that would normally damage an engine with continuous use.

Now consider all of the above from a game play/immersion/fun view point. It could be argued that even an unrealistic need to watch temp could be immersive , but as far as realistic , which is the argument many are trying to make, it would not be any more realistic then what we have now. But I believe most people would not find it immersive but simply a pain in the but.

HiTech






Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: jdbecks on February 16, 2010, 11:28:00 AM
It could be argued that even an unrealistic need to watch temp could be immersive , but as far as realistic , which is the argument many are trying to make, it would not be any more realistic then what we have now. But I believe most people would not find it immersive but simply a pain in the but.

HiTech


That is the exact reason why on IL2, RoF I turned off all advanced engine management as I find it a pain in the butt..Having not played WoP since the latest update you could not adjust the options for engine management..

PS. Hitech, click here..you know you want too  :noid
 Click me (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-646-5184-26%2C_Russland%2C_Flugzeug_Junkers_Ju_87.jpg)

 :bolt:
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Peyton on February 16, 2010, 11:56:17 AM
.

A happy medium has to be reached between realism and fun, I think AH manages it beautifully. If some of you don't think so, the next time you get shot down, cancel your account and I'd be happy to write a letter to your widow.
[/quote]

Amen
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 12:02:13 PM
Quote
But I believe most people would not find it immersive but simply a pain in the but.


Well Hitech its your decision to make. When you introduced Aces High, a lot of people came over here from Warbirds and many of those started in Air Warrior. Are these the same people who pay to play AH today. You know I truly sympathize with you because your MB seems to be overrun with folk like Guppy35, Peyton, Krusty, Karnak and so on who seem to have a dual agenda. These guys always seem to be intentionally ignorant when they hear things they don't want to hear and seem to think others don't notice it. INTENTIONALLY MISSLEADING.

AH is a nice combat simulation but to tell the truth it seems not to be growing or changing; with any of its original force or vitality. I had been away since maybe 2007 and I was rather disappointed that it seemed exactly the same as it did 3 years ago. I considered why this was and felt it must be your intent to keep the frame rate high. But now that I have seen what is happening on the MB I am beginning to realize what it is. My time here is for aircombat. I need to brush up my skills. I am not participating in the ground war and the taking of bases. Your film recorder is a work of genius and one of the reasons I am here. However, mine has stopped working and everytime I want to log in to play I have to restart my computer.

Quote
run at full WEP settings for 40 hours with no failures
Then why limit WEP to 5 minutes. Give us 40 hours.

Quote
find data on even 10% of the plane set

Only about 10% of the plane set is ever used..
Quote
Oh, and I don't want someone else deciding that I have no choice on what I fly, for which side, and what my mission is.

The problem was reading comprehension, same as we see here.


 
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Saxman on February 16, 2010, 12:33:52 PM

Then why limit WEP to 5 minutes. Give us 40 hours.
 

Simply because WEP duration IS something for many aircraft that can be definitively measured. IE, the F4U only carried enough water for 5mins of WEP. I don't understand the reasoning for WEP restrictions on aircraft like the P-51 where they didn't have WEP as it exists in the game, but rather used higher RPM and MAP/etc. settings with no special injection liquid (water, nitrous, etc.), but I'm sure there was a very specific reason this was done.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Lusche on February 16, 2010, 12:49:31 PM
Only about 10% of the plane set is ever used..

Utter nonsense. Where do you get this number from?
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: 1Boner on February 16, 2010, 01:20:38 PM
Utter nonsense. Where do you get this number from?

Rut Ro--I think Raster is about to get a pie chart to the face!! :banana:
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Lusche on February 16, 2010, 01:21:10 PM
 :lol
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Guppy35 on February 16, 2010, 01:30:28 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Jayhawk on February 16, 2010, 01:46:15 PM
This was fun!  :aok
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 16, 2010, 01:55:25 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 02:21:47 PM
 :furious

I don't like censorship
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Delirium on February 16, 2010, 02:47:22 PM
deleted- I must be nice
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: 1701E on February 16, 2010, 02:57:57 PM
Ok its 11.56% but 10 matches the number of fingers without having to take my shoes off.  :rofl   earlier quote: Only about 10% of the plane set is ever used..


According to the Scores/Stats page every plane/gv in the game has been used so far this tour.  Typically with a good quantity of kills (only way I know to see how much it was used), but there are always exceptions: A6M2 only has (286) kills, B5N (126), 109E (79), D3A (61), Spit Mrk I (75).  There are others with numbers that are low, but the majority of the planes see plenty of use.  If I did it right only about 23 of the plane/gv set has less then 300 kills this tour (or less then 18kills/day average).  28 planes/gv have less then 500 kills.  Assuming I counted right there are 97 total (that may have included chute/gunner)  That's about 73% of the planes/GVs getting more then 500 kills this tour (over 31 kills per day up to today).  Just saying, more then 10-12% of the plane set is used. :)
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 16, 2010, 03:00:00 PM
See Rule #5
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 03:07:46 PM
Quote
According to the Scores/Stats page every plane/gv in the game has been used so far this tour

Thats a lie.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Skuzzy on February 16, 2010, 03:09:13 PM
:furious

I don't like censorship

I do not like people who show no respect for our forum posting rules.

Thats a lie.

No, it's not.  I just went through the current tour for the Late War arena and every plane and vehicle has been used.

The SdKfz 251 has the fewest kills, so far this tour, at 43.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: 1701E on February 16, 2010, 03:18:54 PM
Thats a lie.


I used the "Aces High Plane Statistics" page for "Late War Tour 121 Statistics for all planes/vehicles/boats" and used the Aces High Skins Download page as a comparison (pretty sure every plane/gv has a download-able skin) so it's possible I missed a few, but it would be very few.  I know most every plane in the game and the list of ones with kills looks like the list available in game, but my memory is not great.  So, again, I may have missed a few but darn near every plane, if not all, have been used in LW this tour.  Lusche is better at these number things than I am, maybe he will be willing to check the numbers. :)
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Skuzzy on February 16, 2010, 03:21:10 PM
You did not miss any 1701E.  I went through the list myself.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 03:21:32 PM
I understand that Skuzzy. Really, I know what a bastard thing freedom of speach is and honestly you will never see me giving up my life to defend it. I don't think peopls should have the right to say whatever they want.

But how about fixing the film viewer and never mind trolling the MB unless you think beating over a customer is going to put more money in the owners pockets. :frown:
You maybe think the owners are fools but you don't fool me, the plane set is not being used and why spend more money making more planes that won't be used.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Lusche on February 16, 2010, 03:26:55 PM
So, again, I may have missed a few but darn near every plane, if not all, have been used in LW this tour.

There has never been even a single tour (at least not as long as I'm playing), in which there was a GV or plane that did not get any kills.
The least used plane in the LW arena 2009 was the D3A, with still having 8162 kills & deaths total.

If counting planes only, the top 10% planes do have only 34% of all kills&deaths between them.

you don't fool me, the plane set is not being used and why spend more money making more planes that won't be used.

Quote
If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
       - General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett
(http://www.sitcom.co.uk/blackadder/graphics/char_melchett2.gif)
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Skuzzy on February 16, 2010, 03:32:26 PM
I understand that Skuzzy. Really, I know what a bastard thing freedom of speach is and honestly you will never see me giving up my life to defend it. I don't think peopls should have the right to say whatever they want.

But how about fixing the film viewer and never mind trolling the MB unless you think beating over a customer is going to put more money in the owners pockets. :frown:

I do not work in development.  

One of my responsibilities is to oversee this bulletin board.  I am pretty sure that cannot be classified as "trolling".

I am not beating over anyone.  You made a comment, I responded.  You called another member of the community a liar.  A statement not based on any fact you cared to share.  I checked the facts and you were wrong.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Delirium on February 16, 2010, 03:32:34 PM
This discussion is going to turn into a 2 week (or more) ban party, sadly.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 16, 2010, 03:33:15 PM
Off topic unfortunately:

To Skuzzy's credit, he has a tough job. Listening to people whine and moan on the phone because something doesn't work the way they think it should...and troll these forums enforcing the rules. At least he is usually unbiased in his enforcement.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 03:35:19 PM
Well I want my film viewer working because its the best part of AH.

Those statistics are fudged. Put it in your report to the share holders if you think its not misleading.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: gyrene81 on February 16, 2010, 03:37:35 PM
Well I want my film viewer working because its the best part of AH.
No offense Raster but...that issue goes here:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/board,13.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/board,13.0.html)
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: 1701E on February 16, 2010, 03:40:07 PM
You did not miss any 1701E.  I went through the list myself.


Thanks, good to know I'm not losing my memory just yet. :)




Just as a comparison to show how much planes are used for any curious:

23 Planes/GVs have less then 300 kills (Less then 18.75/day)
28 have less then 500 (Less then 31.25/day)
39 have less then 1000 (Less then 62.5day)
59 have less then 2000 (Less then 125/day)
38 have over 2000 Kills (More then 125/day)
97 Planes/GVs/Chute/Gunner Total

Plane set is pretty well used...and after looking at those numbers it amazes me how many people must play per day to get some of these numbers. :)
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 03:41:59 PM
Yes but the issue has been active for how many weeks and still nothing gets done. If he was working for me I would take his MB away until he fixes whats broke.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Skuzzy on February 16, 2010, 03:43:20 PM
Well I want my film viewer working because its the best part of AH.

Those statistics are fudged. Put it in your report to the share holders if you think its not misleading.

Making statements like that, with no basis in fact, is not going to be tolerated.  The stats, accessible via the front page, are absolutely correct.


Yes but the issue has been active for how many weeks and still nothing gets done. If he was working for me I would take his MB away until he fixes whats broke.

Again, I am not part of development.  I am doing my job.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 03:44:09 PM
Quote
it amazes me
Why does it amaze you. Something not jive? :devil

Quote
Re: Film viewer isn't playing films...
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 09:31:26 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any chance you could ZIP it up and email it to me?  That site will not allow me to download the file unless I open up my security to allow it to plant some stuff on my computer.

What you just have the extra time?
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Skuzzy on February 16, 2010, 03:54:12 PM
Why does it amaze you. Something not jive? :devil

What you just have the extra time?

No, I am the support contact for HTC.  It is part of my job to help collect things the dev team needs in order to assess issues with the game and its surrounding utilities.  If they have time, they will do it themselves, when they are really busy, I jump in to help.

If you wish to discuss this further, PM me, as this has taken this thread too far off course.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 04:09:48 PM
Just one last question and I am gone. Scuzzy are you the one that collected the statistics that porked the DH Mosquito? You can put the answer on a new thread. Thanks.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Guppy35 on February 16, 2010, 04:12:31 PM
I don't think I've ever been rule #4'd before. 

I thought it was a pretty good reply actually.  Now I'm so ashamed!  Sorry Skuzzy   :bolt:
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 16, 2010, 04:15:03 PM
I think Rasta is playing the wrong game.

As has been shown in his previous threads, he wants to change the game to make it 'more realistic sim' because he's tired of being shot down by 'gamers'.


ack-ack
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: hitech on February 16, 2010, 04:37:25 PM
Just one last question and I am gone. Scuzzy are you the one that collected the statistics that porked the DH Mosquito? You can put the answer on a new thread. Thanks.

If you make any more accusations that HTC intentionally miss representations anything, you will never be back.

HiTech
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Bronk on February 16, 2010, 04:50:06 PM
As has been shown in his previous threads, he wants to change the game to make it 'more realistic sim' because he's tired of being shot down by 'gamers'.


ack-ack

"There is always a small microcosm of people who need to explain away their suckage."
SlapShot

Aptly fits ehhh?
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Ardy123 on February 16, 2010, 04:52:57 PM
I agree that this thread has lost its course so I'll put it back on track... kinda.

Instead of having 'absolutes' how about add some random variability to the game. I think its safe to say that no to engines performed identically, and that being said maybe we add some degree of randomness to things, maybe your plane doesn't do exactly 405mph at 20k but instead 398 or 407, etc... This could be applied to engine over heats as well. Maybe just because your radiator was hit, your engine doesn't die exactly when it 130C (I think that's what the gauge is at), or maybe the time it takes to red line out is slightly different. Also, to add something like the occasional gun jams or engine failure would increase the 'realistic' aspect of the game. For example, I have read that some 109 pilots didn't like the gondolas because in high 'G' maneuvers the linkage chain had a tendency to fail, etc...

Another, thing would be if you could mark a plane as yours, then you could fly this plane until you lost it by being shot down, crashing, etc...
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: FLS on February 16, 2010, 05:11:50 PM
I'd like everyone who wants random failures to be able to select that in the hanger for their own aircraft.   :neener:



Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 16, 2010, 05:12:48 PM
Just one last question and I am gone. Scuzzy are you the one that collected the statistics that porked the DH Mosquito? You can put the answer on a new thread. Thanks.
As scherf and I pointed out to you, both of us being Mosquito fans, the Mosquito in AH is not porked.  It is just modeled to the data of an FB.Mk VI using Merlin 25s with 100 octane fuel and hampered by flame dampers.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Lusche on February 16, 2010, 05:26:34 PM
I'm experiencing random pilot failures....  :(
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 16, 2010, 05:31:12 PM
Would like to see a more realistic aircraft engine model.  Currently every aircraft in AH can is be flown with the engine throttle fire walled.  Currently the only time an engine overheats is when WEP is applied or engine oil pressure is lost.  This is just not realistic.  All the aircraft engines of the time were subject to over heating and had performance limits set that when exceeded for extended periods of time resulted in a engine over heating and or a seized engine.

I dare say that no one in the game limits RPM or Manifold settings currently. 

I think it would add a new dynamic to the game, be interesting to see the effects on game play if pilots were unable to just dash about at full power all the time.  It would add a degree of reality and make for a more accurate aircraft model.

I don’t know if the program elements are all in place to effect this type of change, but right now it’s possible to control Manifold pressure and RPM and the engine over heating element is present for WEP.  I’ve got to think that it could be expended for other RPM settings as well without much trouble.


That was my original wish and I standby it.   I would however like to replace the word "relistic" with the word "challenging”.  
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 05:57:52 PM
Quote
If you make any more accusations that HTC intentionally miss representations anything, you will never be back.

Hitech its you who wants to silence the dissenting voice. The history of the USA is built on a minority of dissenting voices.

The poster attempted to mislead the readership into believing that each plane in the plane set is used equally. The way the post was presented. The grammar used to present it. These statistics, the way they were presented were misleading and a deliberate attempt to discount a reality the majority hold as truths. The truth that the slower planes are seldom seen in combat. This was essential to my argument in support of improved engine management. Skuzzy's censorship of the MB destroyed the thread. There is no point in discussion if the games own producers have created statistics that are irrefutable, statistics produced by the governing body, statistics that prove all planes are being used equally and that no preference is being shown to any particular type. As with all dictatorships, the moment anyone contests the hard line statistics, the mute button gets pushed and the men with sticks rush into the crowd for the monitors to quash the dissentors like tanks in Tiananmen Square. Don't you dare swing your club at me Hitech or threaten to silence my questions like some Taliban war lord slitting a press reporters neck. Statements like that are almost newsworthy.  :eek:
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 06:03:08 PM
Quote
As scherf and I pointed out to you, both of us being Mosquito fans, the Mosquito in AH is not porked.

I think Karnak, those who have read your posts on this thread probably know what kind of faith to put into your opinion.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Jayhawk on February 16, 2010, 06:03:37 PM
1. What they said was very clear, they backed it up with numbers available to everyone.  I believe you're response was something to the effect of "nuh-uh."

2. Bye

3. Totally IN
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Lusche on February 16, 2010, 06:04:16 PM
The poster attempted to mislead the readership into believing that each plane in the plane set is used equally.

No. You were the one that said: Only 10% of the planes are getting used at all.
Then you were presented facts that did show you are plain wrong.
You called this facts "lies" and the stats being "fudged"



Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 16, 2010, 06:05:23 PM
I think Karnak, those who have read your posts on this thread probably know what kind of faith to put into your opinion.

Actually, those that have been here for awhile know that Karnak is on the level and take his information for what it is, good information. Some on the other hand are just too dense to see the writing on the wall.  I'll leave it up to the community to figure out who those player are.


ack-ack
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Krusty on February 16, 2010, 06:11:40 PM
If any of you looked in his mossie thread, there's this point where folks are giving him info on why he's dead-wrong... then he keeps going on, until:

Karnak: "Did you even read the posts Scherf and I typed? We are not making this up"

Raster: "I'm trying to, you fabricated them so well, I should finish"


^-- anybody NOT notice this guy's a total maroon? I think we're all in agreement. His "free speech" tyrade leads me to believe he's all of 13 years old.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 16, 2010, 06:13:55 PM
"There is always a small microcosm of people who need to explain away their suckage."
SlapShot

Aptly fits ehhh?

Well, let us put it this way.  If it was a glove and OJ tried it on, he'd be sitting on Death Row right now.


ack-ack
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: FLS on February 16, 2010, 06:19:57 PM
Once you know somebody is delusional there's no point in arguing with them or insulting them. The best thing to do is be nice to them and let the authorities handle it.   :old:
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: guncrasher on February 16, 2010, 06:20:18 PM
No. You were the one that said: Only 10% of the planes are getting used at all.
Then you were presented facts that did show you are plain wrong.
You called this facts "lies" and the stats being "fudged"



actually most of these so called statistics provided by some pilots are just based on what he sees while playing.  like lets say for example, the last 3 planes that were added.  I hardly see anybody flying them, so my assumption is that nobody flies them.  but if I go to check statistics for each planes it says that they're flown 80 times a day, I find it hard to believe, however I accept them as being true, based on one fact.  WHY WOULD HT STAFF LIE ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT?  what would be the point to "improve" stats for some planes?  It doesnt make any sense for somebody to accuse of the stats being "made up".  grow up.  

semp
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Traveler on February 16, 2010, 06:21:39 PM
This thread seems to have gotten far off the mark and degraded into personal attacks.  Skuzzy, please pull the the thread, cancel or delete it , what ever must be done.  thanks
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 06:21:50 PM
Quote
You called this facts "lies" and the stats being "fudged"

Oh come on Lusche I call the stats "lies" and the facts being "fudged". Try and make some effort eh.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Puck on February 16, 2010, 06:23:53 PM
It is just modeled to the data of an FB.Mk VI using Merlin 25s with 100 octane fuel and hampered by flame dampers.

</flame-festival>
Has anyone (else) noticed that if you can identify which of the variations and options are modeled on an aircraft the model doesn't suck?  When it's so good you can tell the difference between regular and premium that's just scary.
<flame-festival>
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Lusche on February 16, 2010, 06:25:44 PM
Oh come on Lusche I call the stats "lies" and the facts being "fudged". Try and make some effort eh.

No need to. Considering your posting history from 2001 to now, I will just lean back and enjoy the upcoming PNGficiation.   :cheers:
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: morfiend on February 16, 2010, 06:28:39 PM
 I've read through this whole thread and decided to put my 2 cents worth in for all it's worth.

 I too would like to see a more complex engine management system in place,atleast a mixture control,as I think it would add  new and challenging aspect to the game.

  Do we need cooling adjustments,mixture control,I think not but I would like to see it implemented at some point. I do think it would need to be a selectable item much like the stall limiter and I do think there would have to be a small benefit from selecting"complex controls",maybe an additional 50% wep duration.

 Having said that I find it amazing that some individuals insist on "poking the bear",show me any other game or sim out there that the owner/designer takes the time to chat with the players,listen to those players and tries to be as upfront as is possible with the community at large.

  This is all but unheard of in this business,but "we the players" are fortunate enough to belong to this community,sure we pay for that priviledge but that doesn't mean we have the right to say how things should be.

 HTC is far more tolerant than I would be,if it was up to me many would be gone,but then my business might not be as successful!!!!!

   :salute
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Ardy123 on February 16, 2010, 06:32:00 PM

 HTC is far more tolerant than I would be,if it was up to me many would be gone,but then my business might not be as successful!!!!!

   :salute


Agreed, having been a software engineer in the Game industry, I know how hard it can be. Its easy to request features, its hard to implement them.

I'm experiencing random pilot failures....  :(

lol, ok so its non-fun addition to the game, ok.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Motherland on February 16, 2010, 06:32:41 PM
I've read through this whole thread and decided to put my 2 cents worth in for all it's worth.

 I too would like to see a more complex engine management system in place,atleast a mixture control,as I think it would add  new and challenging aspect to the game.

  Do we need cooling adjustments,mixture control,I think not but I would like to see it implemented at some point. I do think it would need to be a selectable item much like the stall limiter and I do think there would have to be a small benefit from selecting"complex controls",maybe an additional 50% wep duration.

I feel the same way...
I also can't stand how it seems that the most vocal supporters of something like this end up being crazies that think that everyone is out to get whatever plane they like the most... and that HTC is somehow plotting against them...
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Delirium on February 16, 2010, 06:40:54 PM
For someone that wants 'complex engine management' he should have no trouble understanding that free speech rights don't exist on private property.

Allow me to explain in terms based on engine management;

If you 'open (cowl)FLAP' your mouth with reckless abandon, expect the opposite effect from the cooling effect you'd normally see from the owners.

If you can create the right 'MIXTURE' of civility and respect while getting your point across, you'll remain in Aces High for a long time.

If you push the 'ENGINE' or discussion beyond the redline of proper protocol by making false accusations, expect it to blow up in your face.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: morfiend on February 16, 2010, 06:43:21 PM
I feel the same way...
I also can't stand how it seems that the most vocal supporters of something like this end up being crazies that think that everyone is out to get whatever plane they like the most... and that HTC is somehow plotting against them...


  :lol :lol :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: RASTER on February 16, 2010, 06:52:24 PM
Without the film viewer AH has nothing more to offer. Too much stuff not working for such a primitive game. I have cancelled my account and hope that those who want something better will do the same before these morons spoil your love of flying. Bye and to everyone I've met this tour, if you see me online flightsimming in some other sim, don't say hello, just bugger off and STFU.  :aok
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: AirFlyer on February 16, 2010, 06:53:22 PM
It's been an INteresting thread, and I use that word lightly, but I don't see it lasting the next pass of eyes by HTC. Gl Raster, I don't think will see you for a while.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Krusty on February 16, 2010, 07:16:34 PM
It's this attitude that explains why TW will never be a viable game. I'm right, the world is wrong, you don't agree so "stfu and bugger off" ?


Lovely.

Oh well, PNG stick has swung, at least that's over.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Karnak on February 16, 2010, 07:27:17 PM
Never mind, he's been banned.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 16, 2010, 07:32:21 PM
Without the film viewer AH has nothing more to offer. Too much stuff not working for such a primitive game. I have cancelled my account and hope that those who want something better will do the same before these morons spoil your love of flying. Bye and to everyone I've met this tour, if you see me online flightsimming in some other sim, don't say hello, just bugger off and STFU.  :aok

Cancelled or had it cancelled for you?

The only one that spoiled your 'love of flying' has been you.  You've complained how the Mosquito is not modeled correctly but failed to show where the problem is.  When others with far more knowledge on the subject than you posted contradicting your assertions, you labeled them liars or otherwise misleading in their data.  

You also expressed your desire to change the game, in your words to make it 'more realistic', because your skill level isn't very high and you were getting shot down very frequently.  I don't know if it was hubris but in your mind you were getting shot down by everyone because they were 'gamers' without any appreciation for the historical 'simulation' or the planes they flew.  Which resulted in your 'wish' to make the game more difficult so you wouldn't get your bellybutton handed back to you by a 'gamer'.  

You insult the developers and others at HTC and are surprised at the reaction you got?  That to me shows a rather stunning lack of intelligence on your part, which has been reinforced with almost every post you've made.  So, by all means go back to TW and enjoy playing a craptastic flight sim with it's porked flight and damage model and very primitive graphics.  Onthe plus side, with only one other person that is flying in TW, you won't have to worry about being ganged.


ack-ack
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Krusty on February 16, 2010, 07:34:57 PM
Nobody's flying TW now.. It's gone. Shut down. No more flying. The next version's not even in alpha and it'll probably be years before it's got rudimentary flying capabilities.

This is just the first wave. Hopefully not everybody from TW that migrates over will be so ignorant. Some folks (way way back when I tried it) were rather nice.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Bronk on February 16, 2010, 07:51:20 PM
Nobody's flying TW now.. It's gone. Shut down. No more flying. The next version's not even in alpha and it'll probably be years before it's got rudimentary flying capabilities.

This is just the first wave. Hopefully not everybody from TW that migrates over will be so ignorant. Some folks (way way back when I tried it) were rather nice.
There goes the neighborhood. ;)
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 16, 2010, 08:03:40 PM
Nobody's flying TW now.. It's gone. Shut down. No more flying. The next version's not even in alpha and it'll probably be years before it's got rudimentary flying capabilities.

This is just the first wave. Hopefully not everybody from TW that migrates over will be so ignorant. Some folks (way way back when I tried it) were rather nice.

Completely down?  When did this happen?  Target Rabual and Target Tobruk were up during the Holidays. 

BTW- found this little gem from the TW forums.  Talk about a hubris...

Quote
I for one am interested Midway and if I am impressed with your expertise I will probably tell you. However, I doubt you can teach me anything.

If I may suggest you set this up correctly. You could do the whole thing on a Sunday afternoon. Post it, have the folks sign up and register for the specific date and time. Get their emails, send out printed material outlining the manuevers, make up a short program and demonstration, expect each pilot to show you the manuevers correctly preformed, then make sure those who have registered are given a written exam. If these pilots pass your written and online test then you email each of them a certificate of successfully completed training. Or a certificate of failure if thats the kind of pilot they are. However, as I said, I doubt you are the one who would be able to competently teach how to pilot the P38 effectively. Your training and your certificate are only as good as you are. In my opinion, your gunnery is excellent, your pilotage only average. If you have the balls to prove yourself competent to train, then ok, I will humbly sign up as your student to pass or fail by your measure.

RASTER


ack-ack
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: kilo2 on February 16, 2010, 08:16:16 PM
Completely down?  When did this happen?  Target Rabual and Target Tobruk were up during the Holidays. 

BTW- found this little gem from the TW forums.  Talk about a hubris...


ack-ack

So long RASTER we hardly knew ye :salute

*taps playing in the background
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: FLS on February 16, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
I've read through this whole thread and decided to put my 2 cents worth in for all it's worth.

 I too would like to see a more complex engine management system in place,atleast a mixture control,as I think it would add  new and challenging aspect to the game.

  Do we need cooling adjustments,mixture control,I think not but I would like to see it implemented at some point. I do think it would need to be a selectable item much like the stall limiter and I do think there would have to be a small benefit from selecting"complex controls",maybe an additional 50% wep duration....

   :salute

IIRC Hitech has stated something to the effect that the challenge here is air combat not switchology. 

If something was implemented that would give you an advantage it would be more mandatory than optional. If you really just want the challenge of more complex engine management then you don't need additional benefit from it. If it was like trim, where combat trim probably works better than I manually trim, and everybody can easily manually trim on those few occasions when they need too, then more complex engine management could add value for you while not detracting for those not interested in it.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: AWwrgwy on February 17, 2010, 12:01:10 AM
IIRC Hitech has stated something to the effect that the challenge here is air combat not switchology. 

If something was implemented that would give you an advantage it would be more mandatory than optional. If you really just want the challenge of more complex engine management then you don't need additional benefit from it. If it was like trim, where combat trim probably works better than I manually trim, and everybody can easily manually trim on those few occasions when they need too, then more complex engine management could add value for you while not detracting for those not interested in it.


Here ya go:

Adding what you ask on the grounds of making it more challenging is a false argument. You seem to miss the fact that everyone plays by the same rules. The real challenge is not flying the airplane but rather out flying your opponent. So adding what you ask would not make it more challenging, because the goal of killing some one does not become any more difficult or easy because your opponent has to deal with all the same items. So in the end what you ask for detracts from the fun part (fighting) and puts more emphasis on plane knowledge and cockpit management.

2nd in many cases what you ask for becomes less realistic when it comes to cockpit management. With most computer setups  the easy of flying is far more difficult than flying the real thing in almost all regions of flight. So you are asking to make cockpit management much more difficult than flying the real thing.

3rd it would make it much more difficult for a new person to experience is first fight.

Finally as I have said before, you really are just asking to have to remember to push a few more keys on the keyboard. AH is about flying & fighting, not about having to remember a check list.

HiTech

I love SEARCH


wrongway
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: morfiend on February 17, 2010, 12:36:43 AM
IIRC Hitech has stated something to the effect that the challenge here is air combat not switchology. 



 While I agree with this statement and fully understand just how challenging AH can be and is.I would still like to see some kind of a complex flight management,with or without any benefit. The mixture control would really be all I'm interested in but would except cooling controls too.

 Now let me be clear,this is only my opinion and as I said in my original post do we really need it,I think not......


   :salute
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: Puck on February 17, 2010, 10:02:13 PM
IIRC Hitech has stated something to the effect that the challenge here is air combat not switchology. 

The technical term is "playing the piccolo". 
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: SlapShot on February 19, 2010, 03:17:51 PM
Off hand I recall reading of a Spitfire pilot who panicked and ran his Spitfire on WEP for about 30 minutes straight.  They pulled the engine and did a thorough check on it, but could find nothing wrong with it so returned it to service.

Once spoke with a fine old gent at the Bradley Air Museum who was the host at the static P-47 display. He was a P-47 pilot. He told me that he once was in a furball ... firewalled the engine (WEP) and didn't realize until he landed back in the UK that it was firewalled the whole time. He said that the furball was so hairy (he was scared chitless) that he ran the the WEP completely out of water and never touched his throttle after that.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: danny76 on February 19, 2010, 03:29:12 PM
Would like to see a more realistic aircraft engine model.  Currently every aircraft in AH can is be flown with the engine throttle fire walled.  Currently the only time an engine overheats is when WEP is applied or engine oil pressure is lost.  This is just not realistic.  All the aircraft engines of the time were subject to over heating and had performance limits set that when exceeded for extended periods of time resulted in a engine over heating and or a seized engine.

I dare say that no one in the game limits RPM or Manifold settings currently. 

I think it would add a new dynamic to the game, be interesting to see the effects on game play if pilots were unable to just dash about at full power all the time.  It would add a degree of reality and make for a more accurate aircraft model.

I don’t know if the program elements are all in place to effect this type of change, but right now it’s possible to control Manifold pressure and RPM and the engine over heating element is present for WEP.  I’ve got to think that it could be expended for other RPM settings as well without much trouble.


I think its a good idea, also can we have random failure of tyres when landing, which pitches you off the runway into a hangar. I'd also like my guns to jam, especially when factories are moved to the rear and the quality of ammo falls.

We could include careful mixture selection that needs to be maintained constantly in flight (maybe buy and setup 2 throttles). I'd like to see parachutes that have been packed by a half arsed ground crew member that roman candle when you bail.

If guys repeatedly land and rearm instead of taking new a/c, and then repeatedly subject their aircraft to violent dogfighting manouvering, we could have control cables snap randomly.

And maybe in the heat of a big furball we could have an aneurism model under neg g.
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: AWwrgwy on February 19, 2010, 08:43:39 PM
I think its a good idea, also can we have random failure of tyres when landing, which pitches you off the runway into a hangar. I'd also like my guns to jam, especially when factories are moved to the rear and the quality of ammo falls.

We could include careful mixture selection that needs to be maintained constantly in flight (maybe buy and setup 2 throttles). I'd like to see parachutes that have been packed by a half arsed ground crew member that roman candle when you bail.

If guys repeatedly land and rearm instead of taking new a/c, and then repeatedly subject their aircraft to violent dogfighting manouvering, we could have control cables snap randomly.

And maybe in the heat of a big furball we could have an aneurism model under neg g.


You forgot your  :rofl

I hope....



wrongway
Title: Re: improved engine/aircraft model
Post by: 2ADoc on February 20, 2010, 04:59:06 PM
Yea there just aint nothing like being 3000 over gross weight and half way to where you are going and having a rod depart the engine, or having a prop blade decide to go on vacation to somewhere other than where you planned on going.  Mabey even pulling the mixture control back and having it come out in your hand and shut the engine off, while you are 150 miles into Mexico, or even have a windshield crack, or a bird strike.  How would this help the game play?