Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: grizz441 on February 16, 2010, 10:42:59 AM
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From an immersion perspective, I think it'd be really fun to have Axis vs Allies in the Late War. Of course, all sorts of balance issues arise when you introduce this format but I'm wondering what people's take is instead of the standard 3 chess piece/all planes enabled setup.
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From an immersion perspective, I think it'd be really fun to have Axis vs Allies in the Late War.
Now wouldn't that be an AvA arena? And don't we have one already?
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Grizz,
The main reason why I fly in the main arena goes as follows: I don't want to be told which plane I have to fly.
It's that simple.
Still, I remember when all the servers, bar Axis Vs Allied and the DA went down. It was a lot of fun to fly my Spitfire against ze Me109; On the same note, RAF vs Luft would never be balanced as long as the mighty few have Spitfire. :D
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It seems that the majority of subscribers don't like limited plane sets. So to maximize the subscriber base HTC doesn't limit the plane set.
For newer players you see it all the time. Player A gets shot down in a Pony by a LA7 - so Player A then ups a LA7. "It's the pilot not the plane" isn't necessarily true for new players, and they certainly don't believe in it. Consider if Player A kept getting shot down by LA7s and LA7's weren't enabled for him - he'd just figure the game was rigged against him.
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From an immersion perspective, I think it'd be really fun to have Axis vs Allies in the Late War. Of course, all sorts of balance issues arise when you introduce this format but I'm wondering what people's take is instead of the standard 3 chess piece/all planes enabled setup.
Awesome idea, btw AVA was boring and had same gameplay as the LW arenas when I visited it several times! The Axis vs Allies aspect was very nice though :aok
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Awesome idea, btw AVA was boring and had same gameplay as the LW arenas when I visited it several times! The Axis vs Allies aspect was very nice though :aok
So, you think it's an awesome idea, but found the AvA to be boring? So having the LW arena set up like the AvA would be better...how? Because it's LWO?
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So, you think it's an awesome idea, but found the AvA to be boring? So having the LW arena set up like the AvA would be better...how? Because it's LWO?
I believe he was refering to game play and the limited plane set in AVA.
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Now wouldn't that be an AvA arena? And don't we have one already?
Well no. Anytime I see the Ava arena it has 0/200 or 3/200 or something to that effect. Why is it a barren wasteland? Because people want to fly where all the action is. It's cyclic, AvA doesn't have any momentum, LW has ALL the momentum. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make a strawman AvA argument, golf clap for making it the first response Lusche! :) Not to mention Ava always has only a handful of planes enabled on incredibly small maps. Not really the same as hundreds of players packed in with all planes enabled now is it?
It seems that the majority of subscribers don't like limited plane sets. So to maximize the subscriber base HTC doesn't limit the plane set.
Yeah I totally understand that but what I was getting it was that every plane in the game was contained, but each side had either only Axis or Allies.
I'm not trying to advocate this idea, I'm just curious on what your guys thoughts were instead of just taking the 3 chess piece ad nauseum win the war setup we have now as a given set in stone.
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Well no. Anytime I see the Ava arena it has 0/200 or 3/200 or something to that effect. Why is it a barren wasteland? Because people want to fly where all the action is. It's cyclic, AvA doesn't have any momentum, LW has ALL the momentum. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make a strawman AvA argument, golf clap for making it the first response Lusche! :)
It'S no strawmen argument at all. It's a valid one.
Players do chose to play LW and not to play AvA. If it were only because "where all the action is" - Why is it that EW is empty? Everybody was playing EW after the arena split, the LW was basically empty. And then the migration started and LW filled up. If numbers are the only reason, it would never have happened, because EW had all the momentum.
ANd yes, all sorts of balance problems do indeed arise when there's only 2 sides and one of them has B-24, Lancaster, B-17, B26 vs Ju88 and Ki-67.
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No mo 262 for you :banana:
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It'S no strawmen argument at all. It's a valid one.
Players do chose to play LW and not to play AvA.
It's not valid at all. Why would a player choose to fly in a 6 person arena for the sole sake of the AvA aspect of it when a much more dynamic, MMO is awaiting in the LW? It's entirely illogical to try to compare the two as equal choices and to talk as 'the player base' as a collective entity making the decision themselves. I'd expect a more thoughtful analytical response from you Lusche.
ANd yes, all sorts of balance problems do indeed arise when there's only 2 sides and one of them has B-24, Lancaster, B-17, B26 vs Ju88 and Ki-67.
Yes this is the main issue I see. Also the jet problem. They'd have to design the Meteor to counter.
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It's not valid at all. Why would a player choose to fly in a 6 person arena for the sole sake of the AvA aspect of it when a much more dynamic, MMO is awaiting in the LW? It's entirely illogical to try to compare the two as equal choices and to talk as 'the player base' as a collective entity making the decision themselves. I'd expect a more thoughtful analytical response from you Lusche.
EW and LW had the same MMO dynamics.
EW was full of players. Then they went to LW.
The only reason was having more choices, and the very low numbers and all the action being in EW didn't stop this process.
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It'S no strawmen argument at all. It's a valid one.
Players do chose to play LW and not to play AvA. If it were only because "where all the action is" - Why is it that EW is empty? Everybody was playing EW after the arena split, the LW was basically empty. And then the migration started and LW filled up. If numbers are the only reason, it would never have happened, because EW had all the momentum.
ANd yes, all sorts of balance problems do indeed arise when there's only 2 sides and one of them has B-24, Lancaster, B-17, B26 vs Ju88 and Ki-67.
Sorta true. After the Arena Split, the LW Arena's had the most people, more often than not. However in Early War you regularly had 100+ people every evening. Awesome action, fights, etc with some of the best sticks in the game. Then, it slowly (took about 6 months) was overtaken by the mental midgets and it is what it is today.
If I want A vs A, I do that in the FSO and Scenario's.
Excellent post Lusche, sums it up perfectly.
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The fact that avA is a wasteland and the LW is full of players is a clear indication that the AvA setup is not preferred
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EW and LW had the same MMO dynamics.
EW was full of players. Then they went to LW.
The only reason was having more choices, and the very low numbers and all the action being in EW didn't stop this process.
I wasn't around for this migration but I have to assume it happened because of the undeniable appeal of LW speed and still being able to fly everything else. Seems like a no brainer that LW is the most popular. AvA current setup is insanely limiting on planes, usually only allowing 4 at a time, not fun at all for most unless you're bored out of your mind looking for some 2v2s or something.
If we woke up tomorrow and the main arena was completely reformatted to be axis vs allies theme with all the gameplay balance issues figured out, Where do you think everyone would play? I'd put the farm on LW Axis V Allies.
One thing I need to make abundantly clear is I was toying with the notion of an LW AvA arena where every Axis and Allied plane in the game are enabled on large maps. This is not the same thing as the current AvA setup, not in the least bit.
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i only play LW because that's where the numbers are. If the AVA operated more like Grizz described so that i could fly the F4U when ever I'd play there of there were more than 3 people. Wish a LW arena could run like that Grizz.
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If we woke up tomorrow and the main arena was completely reformatted to be axis vs allies theme with all the gameplay balance issues figured out
The latter part is the key point, and it's, in AH's current state, a pure Utopia.
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Plane sets aside, there's also the argument that you need three sides, not two, to have a successful environment with a large amount of players. I think I recall HT saying this and it seems to make sense.
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On the same note, RAF vs Luft would never be balanced as long as the mighty few have Spitfire. :D
how do you spell oxymoron? :rofl Kaz my dear squady and friend WE are supposed to be outnumbered we are THE FEW
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The latter part is the key point, and it's, in AH's current state, a pure Utopia.
Well, the balance issues and 2v3 country discussion were kind of what I was going for with this thread. I'm guessing now that it's going to take an additional page or two before the distinction between my OP and the current AvA setup are made and then five additional pages dedicated to AvA pilots coming in and starting a flame war before ultimately getting this thing locked. :lol
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Couldn't HTC just make everything available in AvA a couple of nights a week? It could be like a mad experiment if you will. :devil
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Couldn't HTC just make everything available in AvA a couple of nights a week? It could be like a mad experiment if you will. :devil
Well I know there are currently too many balance issues that will make it entirely too problematic. Allies have too much bomber power vs Axis. Allies have no counter to Me262s. I think most fighters are actually pretty balanced for each side. Not sure about the ground game, as I'm no experten in that department.
If it were going to work, you'd have to either add another Axis heavy bomber (I'm not a war buff, I don't even know if there was one) or cheat by making Ju88/Ki67s ordnance have some sort of lethality adjustment factor to compensate. Yeah it wouldn't be entirely historically accurate but it would be a compromise for balanced gameplay. The meteor could also be added to counter the Me262. These are the main ones that come to mind and the course of discussion I hope this thread to travel down.
Also, what are the main arguments for and against 2 country war or 3 country war? If a 2 country war has multiple fronts, I guess I don't see the distinction.
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Grizz, they did something like this in the AvA several months ago. It was an MA map with 3 sides...Axis Europe vs. Axis Japan vs. Allied. IMO it was the best setup ran last year and a blast to fly.
It had some obvious issues, heavy bombers for the axis, GV's for Japan, CV planes for Germany and so on. I would still like to see it back though.
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I like what you purpose would take a whole new redesign of the game. The axis have no planes or GVs to take territory. Alot would have to be added to the game and maybe some things taken out. I don't see HTC wanting to do something like that.
Right now i'm just crossing my fingers that the WW1 thing don't go the way of CT.
Heavily perk the ord, formations or the bombers themselves. What's wrong with 250pts for a set of B17s,lancs or 24s?
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I like what you purpose would take a whole new redesign of the game. The axis have no planes or GVs to take territory. Alot would have to be added to the game and maybe some things taken out. I don't see HTC wanting to do something like that.
Right now i'm just crossing my fingers that the WW1 thing don't go the way of CT.
Yeah I don't expect anything to be resolved overnight. Was just hoping the exact issues could be pointed out, discussed, and then the feasibility of all points weighed and evaluated, you know, how a discussion would evolve on a utopian message board. :)
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Also, what are the main arguments for and against 2 country war or 3 country war? If a 2 country war has multiple fronts, I guess I don't see the distinction.
A three country war, particularly with the current "new" rules to win the war (must have fields of both enemy countries) is more dynamic. Though the odds are floating, no country will be permanently be the one that is piled upon. (Which happened for prolonged times with the old rules for winning the war)
When it's only 2 countries, it's always A vs B. It's a huge chance of getting unbalanced pretty quickly even with balanced planesets.
Planes that would have to be introduced before one could ever think about Axis v Allies:
- Ju-87 G and Hs 129 (counterparts of Il-2, Hurri 2D & B-25)
- He-177 and Do 217 (medium and heavy bomber, a He 111 wouldn't help at all)
- an Allied flack vehicle (Wirbelwind & Ostwind)
- Meteor (Me 262)
- removal (yes, removal) of the Me 163
Unfortunately, I don't see a good to balance the CV based planeset
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EW had more numbers for at most a week after the split. Why? Because it was first on the list of arenas and people just logged in without looking. Also, for the first week or so after the split LW had only Late War aircraft. Not the "everything" we now have.
I don't see why the AVA could not be enabled as ALL Axis vs. Allied aircraft. Isn't it pretty much player plane-set enabled now?
I predict the numbers will not change at all though. The majority goes where the majority is no matter what. Maps or plane-sets don't matter.
The few who have similar tastes in maps set the direction most others follow regarding which LW arena has the most players. Still, I believe the other deciding factor is where the arena is on the list of arenas. Look at LW Blue lately. It has more numbers than it usually does because of the map but you do not see the usual disparity in numbers between the two LW arenas because of the "pick the first open arena" people.
wrongway
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EW had more numbers for at most a week after the split. Why? Because it was first on the list of arenas and people just logged in without looking. Also, for the first week or so after the split LW had only Late War aircraft. Not the "everything" we now have.
I don't see why the AVA could not be enabled as ALL Axis vs. Allied aircraft. Isn't it pretty much player plane-set enabled now?
I predict the numbers will not change at all though. The majority goes where the majority is no matter what. Maps or plane-sets don't matter.
The few who have similar tastes in maps set the direction most others follow regarding which LW arena has the most players. Still, I believe the other deciding factor is where the arena is on the list of arenas. Look at LW Blue lately. It has more numbers than it usually does because of the map but you do not see the usual disparity in numbers between the two LW arenas because of the "pick the first open arena" people.
wrongway
You'd be incorrect. But hey, you tried.
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Well I know there are currently too many balance issues that will make it entirely too problematic. Allies have too much bomber power vs Axis. Allies have no counter to Me262s. I think most fighters are actually pretty balanced for each side. Not sure about the ground game, as I'm no experten in that department.
If it were going to work, you'd have to either add another Axis heavy bomber (I'm not a war buff, I don't even know if there was one) or cheat by making Ju88/Ki67s ordnance have some sort of lethality adjustment factor to compensate. Yeah it wouldn't be entirely historically accurate but it would be a compromise for balanced gameplay. The meteor could also be added to counter the Me262. These are the main ones that come to mind and the course of discussion I hope this thread to travel down.
Also, what are the main arguments for and against 2 country war or 3 country war? If a 2 country war has multiple fronts, I guess I don't see the distinction.
This 262 issue seems over stated to me. Grizz you fly them more than most, isn't it rare that you get chased off by another 262? 262s seem to be scarce down low around ack and towns, two places you need to be if your going to capture bases. If the 262 was still perked, its use would still remain a novelty. Hmm would 262s and 163 help even up the lopsided Bomber problem? But is Fighters vs Bomber what anyone wants the main action to be?
My prediction is that if AvA became the main arena with all the planes turned on, the fighter vs fighter action would be OK, but it might quickly [D]evolve into axis-fighter vs Allied-bombers since the only counter to Allied bomber attacks (that were closing bases, and flattening towns) would be to shoot them down. JU-88 and Ki67 don't seem to be effective base closers. I'd be curious to see it it turned out that way.
I'd vote with others that a one night a week AvA In lieu of the LW would be a cool idea. Maybe if it were only one night, the stragic "lets capture all the bases nd win the fake war" mentality would be at a minimum, so Bombers might not become a big factor. The plane matchups and loyalties would make it interesting.
Uptown mentioned perking the bombers, this would be another simple and good way to handle the bomber problem.
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You'd be incorrect. But hey, you tried.
Incorrect?
I would go so far as to say, especially after everything was added to LW, that EW arena numbers stayed that way for only days.
It was pure "click on the first arena" mentality at best. Not "Oh boy!! EW arena!!"
Otherwise, how do you explain the current lack in popularity or the EW "popularity" at the time of the split?
wrongway
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Incorrect?
I would go so far as to say, especially after everything was added to LW, that EW arena numbers stayed that way for only days.
It was pure "click on the first arena" mentality at best. Not "Oh boy!! EW arena!!"
Otherwise, how do you explain the current lack in popularity or the EW "popularity" at the time of the split?
wrongway
Did you even read what I typed? Feel free to ask SlapShot (most of the BK's), Xbrit, OddCAF, BJ229r, Hugo9 and many others who WERE IN THERE to "get away from the redundancy of the LW/old Main Arena". You're trying to play the role of "know-all, be-all" and your replies state otherwise.
Almost 6 months the numbers in the evening were around 90-100. Until the "SOAR" types came in and all of us "moved on". You're "guessing and assuming", I was in the EWA.
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Why is it a barren wasteland?
AvA is a barren wasteland because the majority of the people don't want to be limited as evidenced by the population of the LW arenas. The LW arenas aren't populated just because "that's where the action is" ... it's because they offer the most diverse and "safe" plane set ... and I believe that is the point that Lusche was making ... it's no strawman argument ... it's the truth.
AvA has all the ingredients that you are looking for ... but no one wants to play in that sandbox because most can't or don't want to deal with choosing a particular side and then dealing with the limited planes for that side.
If you were to make an LW arena with 2 sides and offer ALL allied planes on 1 side and then ALL Axis planes on the other side ... the Axis side would get slaughtered ... and then it too would become a barren wasteland.
Forget about the LW arenas going with just 2 sides ... it will never happen and that comes straight from the horse's mouth.
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Who said anything about setting limits? All allied equipment available for the allies and all axes to the axes. If I want to fly a 109 Ill switch from allied to axes. The AvA is empty for a lot of reasons. Not just limited aircraft.
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I've been to AvA on the weekend in the morning and there were a few people in there, about 6. It wasn't bad, but I lucked out, the people who were there were fun to play with.
I've also been to EW, and as stated before every time I've been there the map was overrun by the yellow shortbus crowd, except one time. One time I went there and Murdr was there with some others and it was actually lots of fun fighting in old birds.
My point?
Its not the arenas, its the people who are in the arenas. The problem with many of the under populated arenas is they attract the cartoon napoleons, etc... and thus they are not fun to play with, where the more populated arenas have more options of people to play with.
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AvA is a barren wasteland because the majority of the people don't want to be limited as evidenced by the population of the LW arenas. The LW arenas aren't populated just because "that's where the action is" ... it's because they offer the most diverse and "safe" plane set ... and I believe that is the point that Lusche was making ... it's no strawman argument ... it's the truth.
AvA isn't a bad setup but it's not incredibly appealing in its current state. In order to get a boulder moving, you need more initial force and it's just not good enough to get that initial umph. No one wants to commit to a marginal arena with no player base and no upside, simple as that really. EW vs LW is a different animal since LW had tons of upside and a very good chance of getting momentum shifted due to its incredible appeal, which is exactly what happened.
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No one wants to commit to a marginal arena with no player base and no upside, simple as that really.
I don't say it's totally wrong, numbers do play a important role... and once an arena is down, it's very hard to get it back on track - but it's just not "simple as that"
Arena population is a result of several factors
- maps
- gameplay & balance
- freedom of action (including freedom of plane choice)
- numbers on login screen
- novelty factor and even
- placement on the arena lost (as dumb as this may sound at first)
Now the size of influence each factor has is somewhat floating, and they are influencing each other in a complex way. (For example, most maps don't have a large influence, but a few MA maps will make people leave arena in droves).
But in my opinion, the "freedom" factor is the single most important one in the long run, with numbers on login screen the single most important in the short/medium run
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I think the key for the AvA is to have a few dedicated squads (or groups) in there every night. It's been done in the past but for only a short period of time. I think it has to do in part with the fact that squads prefer certain planesets (PTO, ETO etc) and lose interest when they can't fly their plane(s).
The few times I've been in there in the past year have been pretty fun - with smaller numbers there have been some pretty fun fights... the issue is logging in there first and waiting for the others is boring and if there's only 1 or two people in there already it's not very appealing to join up.
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If you changed LW Orange per Grizz's suggestion I believe that after a week LW Blue would be full and there would be a chorus of complaints from those who couldn't get in. I assume Grizz is talking about changing both LW arenas to avoid this. MW and EW would probably see a boost simply by virtue of not being AvA.
The current setup is the result of many years of experiments, tweaking and tinkering. A lot of things that are fun occasionally are not going to work day in and day out. I'm not saying that nothing can be improved, just that there are good reasons for the choices HTC has made.
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I enjoy all the arenas, and I do like flying the early birds, The only reason why I mostly spend time in the LW arena is due to population levels at the time I can play.
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I'd like to try it. Make blue the experiment. Do it for a week. See what its like, get whatever interest is there and then if it works out implement it in the AvA permantly. Axis will not have the 4 engine buffs, so what, use what you got, kill what the other side has. If its late war then axis pretty much defends. Rotate western front, eastern front and PTO. Who knows.
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Why not try it in the AVA? Forcing people who can't get into Orange to choose EW, MW, or AVA Blue isn't a good way to treat paying customers.
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If HTC wanted to try it, I'm sure they could do something about the cap.
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Good point but then how is it different from the AVA? Would it just be that the scoring counts for LW?
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Not in my mind. No one goes to AvA, because of the population. Make it in blue to have it more visible. Or just advertise like crazy on arena messages and BBS and implement it in AvA right off bat. I think that the more people that are exposed to it the more will like it, and the better it will work. I think its a pipe dream anyway, but I do like the idea.
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AVA doesn't always allow field captures all the time so open it up to captures and each side gets all it's available plane & GV sets. The AVA runs with historic plane sets for the map, not all axis and allied planes are available. thing's like jeep, m8 and c47 would have to be available to axis to even a few things out and maybe give allies the wirblewind and/or osti.
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no base capture is one of the greatest things about AvA.
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Good point but then how is it different from the AVA? Would it just be that the scoring counts for LW?
The difference would be the game settings. AvA has captures disabled or made very difficult most of the times, has mostly reduced ack settings, and short icon ranges. Other things like dar are different too.
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Change LW to be 2-sided like AvA, and you'll see numbers like: 248v20, then 250v10, then 300v0. Sound like fun?
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Change LW to be 2-sided like AvA, and you'll see numbers like: 248v20, then 250v10, then 300v0. Sound like fun?
Give the axis a field that isn't only uncapturable, but unporkable too... and it will be 300vs1, with me hugging ack all day. :bolt:
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It would be fun and a great thing to try say once a week - like Titanic Tuesday, but unfortunately the whining would be of biblical proportions.
The truth is the nubs want to fly their LW planes in a big gang with all their nub friends, and that's not going to change. Were you around when HTC split the arena and introduced caps omg - it was like the wailing wall.
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Give the axis a field that isn't only uncapturable, but unporkable too... and it will be 300vs1, with me hugging ack all day. :bolt:
sounds like me every evening in LW, except for the unporkable /uncapturable part. In a kinda sadistic way, I kinda love/hate outnumbered base defense.
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From an immersion perspective, I think it'd be really fun to have Axis vs Allies in the Late War. Of course, all sorts of balance issues arise when you introduce this format but I'm wondering what people's take is instead of the standard 3 chess piece/all planes enabled setup.
:airplane: Might be fun to try it for a while and see how it works out. Have all the planes enabled but limit it to two chess pieces.
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Change LW to be 2-sided like AvA, and you'll see numbers like: 248v20, then 250v10, then 300v0. Sound like fun?
Why? The notion that people are going to switch to the high numbers side to gang Axis even further is not a fact like you imply, it's only a theory. Maybe you are correct to an extent, but I think there would be a lot of dedicated Axis pilots that would step up to the challenge, especially with an actual allegiance on the line. I might be wrong, but in a perfect AH world it would be awesome to have this setup and it's nice to discuss its feasibility.
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One thing I need to make abundantly clear is I was toying with the notion of an LW AvA arena where every Axis and Allied plane in the game are enabled on large maps. This is not the same thing as the current AvA setup, not in the least bit.
We already have every axis and allied plane enabled already, that is what late war is :headscratch: :lol
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Couldn't see anyone going for it in large numbers people fly what they want I guess its their choice :D
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The AvA is around for 3 reasons.
1. If you don't like being chased by 2 x La-7, 3 x Spitfires , 4 x P-51's, and a Bf-109 all at the same, then the AvA has something to offer you.
2. If you don't like dogfighting 20 enemy aircraft at the same time, constantly being cherry picked, having your ordinance continually down, and bored by the MA style gameplay, then the AvA has something to offer you.
3. If you do like fighting under historical situations and locations, against real enemies that our grand parents and great grand parents fought against, against a real adversary in an aircraft that was limited in performance at a particular date, but don't have time for SEA events, then the AvA has something to offer you.
Saying you don't fly in there because no one is in there, is calling a glass half-empty, when in fact, its full of opportunity, historical learning's, friendships, and fun.
As the saying goes, to each their own. Meaning that HTC offers a style of gameplay for a wide range of audiences, and the AvA is part of the offering.
For those of you who think the AvA is a waste of time, space, and energy, NUTS! :D
:salute
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Don't care about the AvA, this thread is not about the Ava.
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reducing it to only 2 sides would be fun. allot more fights would ac-cure. from the looks of the sky when flying i think there are equal numbers of allied and axis flyer's. the only problem i can see is more squad level then tottal numbers.
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Did you even read what I typed? Feel free to ask SlapShot (most of the BK's), Xbrit, OddCAF, BJ229r, Hugo9 and many others who WERE IN THERE to "get away from the redundancy of the LW/old Main Arena". You're trying to play the role of "know-all, be-all" and your replies state otherwise.
Almost 6 months the numbers in the evening were around 90-100. Until the "SOAR" types came in and all of us "moved on". You're "guessing and assuming", I was in the EWA.
I guess my mistake then. I was referring to the first week of the split where the EW numbers were GREATER than the LW arenas due primarily to the fact that EW was first on the list and most logging on didn't bother to look at the arena other than the numbers.
I'm sorry to hear the SOARs ran you out of the arena.
;)
Back on topic somewhat, who sets up the AVA anyhow? Plane sets and what not. Why not enable all Axis vs all Allied and see what happens.
No point in doing it in LW as it would make an LW arena not an LW arena, wouldn't it?
wrongway
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nvm. It would suck for the Japanese and american tankers
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I'm sorry to hear the SOARs ran you out of the arena.
;)
wrongway
The SOAR's never existed then. Just the identical mindless mentality.
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Don't care about the AvA, this thread is not about the Ava.
This thread is about wanting a AvA type setup. But rather than spending time making the AvA arena better you would rather force the change on others, so you can have AvA with numbers.
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Sometimes you have to force people to their happiness... :bolt:
I would love to fly a historical setup but I also hate fly all by myself. The numbers momentum IS an issue. During GMT times AvA has NO players at all. So my choices are a) soar around lonely or b) join the MA LW sillyness. Sure scenarios offer what I want but I don't pay 15 USD for 1 frame a month (GMT friendly).
'Enforcing' a historical setup maybe once a week or once every two weeks might show people what they miss in MA. After all we have SO MANY Jagdgeschwader and Squadrons online that have fancy Logos and signatures but never fly even near their historical planeset. A salute to the Muppets, Jokers and whatnot that at least do not pretent to be something historical.
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Rant aside! Starting today GMT 2000 hours is the unofficial GMT friendly AvA evening! Be there or be square!!! :rock
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I wouldn't mind a special event weekend maybe once or twice a month.
AvA style setup 20 troops per map room, first country to 75% wins and resets back to normal. Shouldn't take long for the allies to walk all over it, however if large squadrons do the right thing and balance the sides it could go on for awhile.....
it wouldn't hurt to try it one time.
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I wouldn't mind a special event weekend maybe once or twice a month.
AvA style setup 20 troops per map room, first country to 75% wins and resets back to normal. Shouldn't take long for the allies to walk all over it, however if large squadrons do the right thing and balance the sides it could go on for awhile.....
it wouldn't hurt to try it one time.
We have a arena devoted to AvA. You could make your special event in there. The place exists. Why force people to play that way when they already don't choose to play that way.
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I think it would be great to try Grizz's idea at least once a week. Some of the best times I've had were in the AvA and during the FSO... I attribute that to added immersion/excitement involved when matching wits against historically accurate plane sets. Granted, under Grizz's proposal there could still be P51s, LA7s, and Spits vs. 109s and NIKs (which aren't necessarily "historic" matchups). It's more of a compromise between the AvA and LW arenas.
Why not try it for 1 month? That's only 4 days! At worst it will add a bit of excitement to the current arena schedule.
Regarding the balance issues, that's quite simple:
1. For base taking, make the allied bases capturable with just 5 troops (SdKfz 251 will fill the role of the M3). The c47 can be used for both sides, I don't think that would be too big an issue. Axis C47 would only carry 5 troops.
2. For bombers, perk points can be used as mentioned earlier.
3. I think the tank matchups would be relatively even, but I am not much of a GV'er so I would have to defer judgement to those with more experience.
4. The fighter matchups would rather even
5. The attack matchup would favor the allies with the IL2... but so what? I don't think it would be entirely unbalancing.
My vote is to give it a shot. For the naysayers, I urge you to consider the law of unintended consequences... you may find that you enjoy it after trying it!
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We have a arena devoted to AvA. You could make your special event in there. The place exists. Why force people to play that way when they already don't choose to play that way.
most AH players are sheep they go where the herd is. Using this as a basis of your argument against trialing this potential new setup is pretty weak.
I'm thinking every available plane/ gv in the set enabled for their respective side, so you have a large choice and reduce the side switch to say 30minutes to help balance the teams if they get skewed.
If you hadn't noticed LW arena gameplay has been the same old same old since the MA split, it needs something just to spice it up a little. At the moment people don't really care. Experienced guys get bored easily and leave.
again it won't hurt to try it for one weekend and if it gets reset back to normal. I propose no arena split whilst this is going down!
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Like I said before you could work to make AvA a viable populated arena. That's not what you guys want though you want to take the easy way and just force it down everyones throats.
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I like Bruvs sheep comparison because it is the truth.
We already have like the Orange/Blue arena split forced upon us. Sheep... err people will accept almost anything. ;)
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Like I said before you could work to make AvA a viable populated arena. That's not what you guys want though you want to take the easy way and just force it down everyones throats.
Not true. What is proposed here has very little to do with how AvA is run, the only similarity is Axis <----> Allied. Gameplay mechanics would be more MA style and this is what really set it apart from the current AvA. I really do not think the AvA regulars would welcome such a fundamental change to "their" preferred arena. I could be wrong though.
However, I agree that it should not be a forced thing. It should be offered as an alternative to the actual LWA setup. I see some good potential, not just for the current customer base, but maybe also for further grow. Just think about the possibilities for historical squads, which could fight their historical opponents. It would be certainly more immersing than P-51s vs P-47s, Spits vs Typhoons or K4s vs Doras, which are the norm in the current LWA setup.
I really think this would be worth a test. If it works out, this would be a great alternative to the LWA with a distinctively different character. And if it works, there is a good reason for HTC to fill the balance gaps for such a setup, which will also benefit the game as a whole.
Maybe such an arena could ease the stress on the LWA caps too...
Win-Win if you ask me...
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5. The attack matchup would favor the allies with the IL2... but so what? I don't think it would be entirely unbalancing.
This would be massively unbalancing. The Il-2 is tank killer #1 for a good reason.
Kill the ords at an Allied field, and they will up Il-2s that can easily gun down any approaching vehicle.
Kill the ords at an Axis field and they are simply out of luck. They don't have a plane that can gun down enemy tanks... the Allies have Il-2, Hurricane D, B-25H.
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htc comes along and sticks in Rudel's stuka, problem solved.
is the IL2 eny set to 5? possible perk? remove it? harden Axis ammo bunkers? they were pretty clever at concealing stuff from allied bombing ;)
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The allies would have to have alot of things perked. Ord and gun packages for sure. The axis power would need a fast moving GV for troop and supply runs, a heavy bomber, a few more prop planes to fight and attack with. Perk the whirels and jets.
The allies need a beefed up verison of the M16, different CV control rules for the 2 powers. The CV question is a big problem. Do we now add Uboats too? :lol That would be cool!
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This thread is about wanting a AvA type setup. But rather than spending time making the AvA arena better you would rather force the change on others, so you can have AvA with numbers.
The OP states "Different LW (Late War) Country Setup?".
The AvA already exits and is a ghost town. We don't need two ghost towns. Again, this thread IS NOT ABOUT THE AvA. It's merely been hijacked to appear as such.
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The AvA is around for 3 reasons.
1. If you don't like being chased by 2 x La-7, 3 x Spitfires , 4 x P-51's, and a Bf-109 all at the same, then the AvA has something to offer you.
2. If you don't like dogfighting 20 enemy aircraft at the same time, constantly being cherry picked, having your ordinance continually down, and bored by the MA style gameplay, then the AvA has something to offer you.
3. If you do like fighting under historical situations and locations, against real enemies that our grand parents and great grand parents fought against, against a real adversary in an aircraft that was limited in performance at a particular date, but don't have time for SEA events, then the AvA has something to offer you.
Saying you don't fly in there because no one is in there, is calling a glass half-empty, when in fact, its full of opportunity, historical learning's, friendships, and fun.
As the saying goes, to each their own. Meaning that HTC offers a style of gameplay for a wide range of audiences, and the AvA is part of the offering.
For those of you who think the AvA is a waste of time, space, and energy, NUTS! :D
:salute
In all honesty, 1 and 2 describe the AvA very well. Only the plane types and number of people chasing you change. WHy not take the idea from this thread and do something with it? Instead of goofy wind, radar, icon and capture settings, give this a try?
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This would be massively unbalancing. The Il-2 is tank killer #1 for a good reason.
Kill the ords at an Allied field, and they will up Il-2s that can easily gun down any approaching vehicle.
Kill the ords at an Axis field and they are simply out of luck. They don't have a plane that can gun down enemy tanks... the Allies have Il-2, Hurricane D, B-25H.
I think the Panzer, Tiger and the Wirblewind more than make up for the Il2.
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I think the Panzer, Tiger and the Wirblewind more than make up for the Il2.
How so? Tiger & Panzer have their equivalent in the T-34 and Firefly. The Wirbel can't kill enemy tanks. If Allied GVs are rolling onto an Axis airfield that has ords down, there is nothing left to stop them from the air. If Axis are rolling on an Allied airfield, there is: two "Bombers" and a "Fighter". Wirbels could defend against them, but never stop them unless seriously hording.
The fact that the Allies do not have any GV to defend their bases (V bases in particular) against air attack doesn't balance that out. All you have is simply two different imbalances.
Gameplay and map layouts are not designed to take this into account.
Overall gameplay balance in the MA is a delicate thing. It's quite easy to be "ruined".
Additional AvA planeset arena? I wouldn't object at all.
But in place of the MA without huge changes to gameplay and lot of added planes? That's just producing a lot of trouble
(And I still don't have any idea how the TF problem could be solved)
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This is a recurring topic. The numbers show people's preferences, i.e., they want all of the planes all of the time. Of course, the masses have always had bad taste. The alternate arenas have such low numbers that they are a joke and I fly late war simply because it is more fun to have a lot going on. The problem with the Late War arena BEING the game is that many resources are under utilized. How often are the B5N or D3a, etc used? The ENY system helps but there is a penalty for not using the uber rides, especially if one is usually alone, like me. My solution, proposed many times, was to have one 12 (or 24) hour period per month with a rolling plane set. So, for 708 hours per month one could have what we have, but for 12 of them there would be RPS. Why? Maybe the masses would see the virtues of the RPS, and this might help the other arenas. Even such a reasonable and slight concession won't happen, and so AH will always be the Late War arena. One other possible solution is to tweek the Late War. Make the LA-7, 190-D, Spit XVI, P-51D, P-47N & M, 109-K perk planes. Don't allow any ords on planes with eny below 20. Do away with drop tanks UNLESS you take 100% fuel.
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The problem here is the war itself. The Axis powers were basically two countries with limited resourses against a 4 countries, us,russia,uk and china with great spots on the map. The Axis did a poor job of picking a fight. How do you relate the time frames,dates and different technologies to a video game and make it fair? I don't think you can. People ain't going to showup for a unfair game.
With a 3 country system takes this problem away.
I keep thinking that maybe the folks at HTC run into the same kind of questions amongst themselves when they were laying out the CT part of the game.
I don't really like the way AcesHigh is setup sometimes but I understand it. :salute
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If Allied GVs are rolling onto an Axis airfield that has ords down, there is nothing left to stop them from the air.
The Me110 can kill T34 and M4s, and is a great ground attack plane.
If Axis are rolling on an Allied airfield, there is: two "Bombers" and a "Fighter". Wirbels could defend against them, but never stop them unless seriously hording.
If Tigers, Panzers, and Whirbles are rolling on Allied field with ords down, The IL2 is not going to save the day.
The fact that the Allies do not have any GV to defend their bases (V bases in particular) against air attack doesn't balance that out. All you have is simply two different imbalances.
Gameplay and map layouts are not designed to take this into account.
My point is the Me110 can kill T34 and M4s, and is a great ground attack plane. Your point was that IL2s render German Armor useless. If IL2s have an advantage of 110s at attacking ground armour, I think the presents of the Whirble, and the superiority of German armour over the T34 ans the Sherman make up the difference. IL2 are easy pickings for german planes as well. so this IL2 threat as a table turner seems overtated. IMO :salute
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My point is the Me110 can kill T34 and M4s,
Not really without ords. The 110 is using low velocity thin-walled HE shells.
If Tigers, Panzers, and Whirbles are rolling on Allied field with ords down, The IL2 is not going to save the day.
Oh yes, it is - unless the enemy is hording, i.e. massive numerical advantage. Unlike the 110, the Il-2 simply chews through any enemy armor
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Not really without ords. The 110 is using low velocity thin-walled HE shells.
Oh yes, it is - unless the enemy is hording, i.e. massive numerical advantage. Unlike the 110, the Il-2 simply chews through any enemy armor
Lusche I suck and I've killed/disabled tanks and armour with a 110. No doubt the IL2 is better, but trying to kill tanks by flying IL2s into a bunch of whirbs is a death sentence for any plane.
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The problem here is the war itself. The Axis powers were basically two countries with limited resourses against a 4 countries, us,russia,uk and china with great spots on the map. The Axis did a poor job of picking a fight. How do you relate the time frames,dates and different technologies to a video game and make it fair? I don't think you can. People ain't going to showup for a unfair game.
With a 3 country system takes this problem away.
I keep thinking that maybe the folks at HTC run into the same kind of questions amongst themselves when they were laying out the CT part of the game.
I don't really like the way AcesHigh is setup sometimes but I understand it. :salute
Compromise historical accuracies for game play balancing considerations. And why not, there's nothing historically accurate about how the MA is run anyways other than individual plane modeling and armament detail.
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You know this whole time, I've been thinking you just meant make it 2 countries in MA grizz..... But you really do want a similar to Axis v Allies setup just without any restrictions on "up-able" aircraft?
I would have to agree with the disagree'rs on that idea. I like the Mossie just as much as the 262 per say. I'd hate to have to choose.
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No doubt the IL2 is better, but trying to kill tanks by flying IL2s into a bunch of whirbs is a death sentence for any plane.
That's why you up a B-25H and take out the flak panzies with a single shot from way beyond the flak panzie's gun range. B-25H is just as effective in killing ground vehicles as the IL2 is.
ack-ack
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That's why you up a B-25H and take out the flak panzies with a single shot from way beyond the flak panzie's gun range. B-25H is just as effective in killing ground vehicles as the IL2 is.
ack-ack
Depends on who is in the flak. Come in nice and level at 2-3k while I'm in a Manned Field Gun or an Ostie, you're in the tower 9 times out of 10.
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The 37mm has much better range........... :aok
Depends on who is in the flak. Come in nice and level at 2-3k while I'm in a Manned Field Gun or an Ostie, you're in the tower 9 times out of 10.
Come to think of it.... The Axis has MUCH better anti-air gv's. All the Allies have is the soft gun. (Nobody ups an M16 anymore)
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I like the Mossie just as much as the 262 per say. I'd hate to have to choose.
Well I like rooks, and knights AND bish (ok, maybe not bish)! It sux to have to choose nightly or even hourly who I want to fly with. :cry
I'm not saying I'm totally in favor of it either. As the game is set up now it would be a complete failure. But I know I'd be willing to compromise some allied rides I enjoy flying to be strictly Axis for some tours and then maybe switch if I wanted to get a breath of fresh air.
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If there is a paticular AvA kind of setup you guys want to see invloving late war-aircraft, let us know.
For example, if you want us to run a AvA setup with all aircraft up to 1940/41/42/43/44/45 on a particular side, we can. We once ran a three-side war - USA/USSR/Germany setup using a triple-sided map.
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If there is a paticular AvA kind of setup you guys want to see invloving late war-aircraft, let us know.
For example, if you want us to run a AvA setup with all aircraft up to 1940/41/42/43/44/45 on a particular side, we can. We once ran a three-side war - USA/USSR/Germany setup using a triple-sided map.
I think that might be an interesting udea, Enable all axis v allies planes, some one side has Luft, Japanese & Italian v allies.
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From an immersion perspective, I think it'd be really fun to have Axis vs Allies in the Late War. Of course, all sorts of balance issues arise when you introduce this format but I'm wondering what people's take is instead of the standard 3 chess piece/all planes enabled setup.
Ar234B
B5N2
D3A1
Ju87D-3
Ju88A-4
Ki-67
vs.
A-20G
B-17G
B-24J
B-25C
B-25G
B-26B
Boston Mk III
Il-2 3M
Lancaster Mk III
SBD-5
TBM-3
Yeah, that looks fair. Lets look at some of the more capable fighters:
A6M5b
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Bf109G-14
Bf109K-4
Bf110G-2
C.205
Fw190A-5
Fw190A-8
Fw190D-9
Ki-61-I-Tei
Ki-84-I-Ko
Me163B
Me262A-1
N1K2-J
Ta152H-1
vs
F6F-5
F4U-1
F4U-1A
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
F4U-4
FM2
Hurricane Mk IIc
La-5FN
La-7
Mosquito Mk VI
P-38J
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-47D-40
P-47M
P-47N
P-51B
P-51D
Seafire Mk II
Spitfire Mk VIII
Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire Mk XIV
Spitfire Mk XVI
Tempest Mk V
Typhoon Mk Ib
Yak-9T
Yak-9U
Ok, that isn't remotely fair either.
So, the best, most popular bombers and the best, most popular fighters are all concentrated on the Allied side. Axis vs Allies in the LWA would simply result in the Axis being massively outnumbered. The most popular fighter they can muster is the N1K2-J, a fighter that is massively out classed by numerous fighters on the Allied side in the hands of any player who has a clue how to deal with the N1K2-J. Bomberwise the Axis has a choice between the somewhat survivable Ki-67 and the somewhat useful war load of the Ju88A-4 as compared to the Allied choice of the survivable B-17G or B-26B, the massive war load of the Lancaster Mk III, the halfway point of the B-24J.
The planeset and player base are not suitable to such an environment at all. Sorry.
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Somebody forgot to mention the overwhelming advantage the Axis ground forces have...... Doesn't that make up for it? :lol
The planeset and player base are not suitable to such an environment at all. Sorry.
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Somebody forgot to mention the overwhelming advantage the Axis ground forces have...... Doesn't that make up for it? :lol
No, not really. Aircraft are quite cable of stopping ground offensives.
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Well, since you completely neglected my point with having to sort out game play balance issues first, I'm going to completely neglect your point about axis being vastly outnumbered due to noobs needing to fly their spits. I appreciate you showing me how stupid of an idea this is in AH's current state, which I already have said multiple times in this thread.
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Well, since you completely neglected my point with having to sort out game play balance issues first, I'm going to completely neglect your point about axis being vastly outnumbered due to noobs needing to fly their spits. I appreciate you showing me how stupid of an idea this is in AH's current state, which I already have said multiple times in this thread.
Your point is irrelevant as it isn't just something that can be sorted out. Some of these problems are endemic and nothing HTC does could address them.
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The planeset and player base are not suitable to such an environment at all. Sorry.
Karnak,
It's what the AvA staff do - we balance out the strengths and weaknesses of the Axis aircraft and select corresponding Allied aircraft accordingly. We've been doing that since the CT first started almost a decade ago.
For example, if I enable the NIK2 I would match it up against the Spitfire VIII or La-5. If I enabled the Bf 109F4 I would counter it with the Spitfire V. And most AvA pilots know that although a Spitfire V can out-turn the dickens of a Bf 109, it can't catch it, out-run it or out-climb it. We also usually enable aircraft on a 1 to 1 basis. One fighter type each side and one bomber type except if we're running a scenario.
So, you could have a Axis vs Allies 1945 setup.
A6M5
Bf 109G-14
Bf 109K-4
Fw 190D-9
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Ki-84
Nik2
vs
F4U-1C
F6F
P-38L
P-51D
P-47M
P-47N
Spitfire XIV
Typhoon
It's not that lopsided
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In a land far away and a long time ago, I flew a sim that decided to make changes to the Arena's. The existing MA became a mixed mode arena, where you would be fighting pilots who could choose to deliberately dumb down the flight mode. The only real mode only arena became the full time AvA Arena (up to this point, the MA had previously been 4 sided, MA-style capture-the-flag gameplay) - a 2 sided, Axis vs Allies MA-style capture-the-flag gameplay. This forced players to choose between flying the new AvA "Main" or to fly in the "Old Main" against pilots who might be using the fictional FM, forcing many people who really didn't want to to fly the "New" arena. Most of the arguments in this thread are reminiscent of the arguments made for doing so at that time over there, too.
The AVA primary arena format was one of the things that ruined the sim. It wasn't the only thing, but it sure did it's part to drive folks out. The biggest problem for me personally was signing in night after night after night to find that the Axis were way way down in numbers, and gritting teeth and flying the Dark side when what I really wanted to do was fly the F4U. Squads were torn apart by it, and eventually, a lot of players drifted away from the game. Many of them are here these days. GV's weren't nearly as large a part of the game as they are here, so the biggest problem was the discrepencies between the bombers, so an entirely new way of "bombing" was introduced, further increasing the "gaminess" of the sim. An RPS had been in place since I'd started flying, but this introduced additional issues, as the early part of the war would see pilots flying Axis for their day in the sun, and then the rest of the month you would see the few dedicated + the few "align themselves with the underdogs rather than doing what they really want" against the many.
HTC, I pray to God - saw what happened there, and it will never happen here.
A 2 sided Axis vs Allies arena is fun - for a little while. Day after day it's the pits. Add in stupid developers, and it hoovers dirty pond water.
<S>
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Mister Fork,
That is how the AvA works, yes. What the OP was talking about was the LWA though, which is a much different beast than the AvA.
Just one example, but the Axis are totally unable to run effective late war carrier operations in AH as compared to the Allies. There is no selection of aircraft that changes that.
I understand what the OP is saying, it just won't work and can't work for many reasons. Even if you add the He177A-5 and H8K2 'Emily' in order to give the Axis a couple heavy bombers it still wouldn't work. The P-51 and Spitfire are simply too popular, and that cascades into people picking the side with numbers to avoid being ganged, which in turn leads to fewer subscriptions of German, Japanese and Italian aircraft fans and follows with fewer subscription of Allied aircraft fans due to lack of action and boredom. Nothing HTC does, as long as they are trying to make the aircraft behave like they did, can change that.
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Mister Fork,
That is how the AvA works, yes. What the OP was talking about was the LWA though, which is a much different beast than the AvA.
Just one example, but the Axis are totally unable to run effective late war carrier operations in AH as compared to the Allies. There is no selection of aircraft that changes that.
I understand what the OP is saying, it just won't work and can't work for many reasons. Even if you add the He177A-5 and H8K2 'Emily' in order to give the Axis a couple heavy bombers it still wouldn't work. The P-51 and Spitfire are simply too popular, and that cascades into people picking the side with numbers to avoid being ganged, which in turn leads to fewer subscriptions of German, Japanese and Italian aircraft fans and follows with fewer subscription of Allied aircraft fans due to lack of action and boredom. Nothing HTC does, as long as they are trying to make the aircraft behave like they did, can change that.
Correct, some are obviously trying to herd more people into the AvA, rather than deal with the Original Post and stay on topic. The AvA used to interest me, I don't even give it a thought anymore.
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From an immersion perspective, I think it'd be really fun to have Axis vs Allies in the Late War. Of course, all sorts of balance issues arise when you introduce this format but I'm wondering what people's take is instead of the standard 3 chess piece/all planes enabled setup.
I personaly like the freedom for players to choose what they want to fly, even when you know you'll be flying mostly against LW beasts like the spixteen.
But I'm with a lot of other players who feel like they want some real differences between LWO and LWB, and more than just the map.
I like to push my idea that we make one of the LW arenas a "hardcore" and the other a "classic", but it would call for ranking players in each arena seperate from the other LW arena. Keep the servers on different maps, but make one kinda like bumper-bowling for fun and the other more competitive and for the title. We can double the fuel burn rate and even the ammo count in one, make the FB and ammo 1.0 in the other. Enable KS, disable FF and set enemy icons to apear up to 6k in one; disable KS, enable FF (maybe even have score/rank penalties for it) and set enemy icons to 2k max in the other.
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I personaly like the freedom for players to choose what they want to fly, even when you know you'll be flying mostly against LW beasts like the spixteen.
But I'm with a lot of other players who feel like they want some real differences between LWO and LWB, and more than just the map.
I like to push my idea that we make one of the LW arenas a "hardcore" and the other a "classic", but it would call for ranking players in each arena seperate from the other LW arena. Keep the servers on different maps, but make one kinda like bumper-bowling for fun and the other more competitive and for the title. We can double the fuel burn rate and even the ammo count in one, make the FB and ammo 1.0 in the other. Enable KS, disable FF and set enemy icons to apear up to 6k in one; disable KS, enable FF (maybe even have score/rank penalties for it) and set enemy icons to 2k max in the other.
Odd thing is, that in some ways FB 1.0 will make the arena even more unrealistic... unless you double the distances between fields too ;)
But anyway, there will be one main problem: Such an arena without KS and short icon range will be almost empty very quick... and where do the people go when the "easy" LW arena is full?
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Is it too early to say IN on this thread?
:confused:
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Is it too early to say IN on this thread?
:confused:
Yes.
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Well back to topic then....... I have to assume the FB1 is going to have a heavy perk value..... And I do mean HEAVY. And I think you would agree Meister?
Yes.
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The AvA concept is one that has limited appeal. Those who like it really like and then there are those that want any plane at any time.
Forcing an AvA set up in the LW arenas will never work. HTC would never hear of it.
The best thing to do for those who want immersion is to work on ways to improve and repopulate AvA.
Next set-up will have specific nightly objectives. At least there will be goals and things to accomplish in there.
I fly there almost exclusively now. When it's empty I practice bombing etc.
There is a core group of AvA enthusiasts and they are always racking their brains on how to get it going strong.
Those involved are doing their best to find the formula that works, imaginative suggestions are always welcome.
I intend to begin promoting AvA Mondays again, we had some momentum going, but
two consecutive snapshot conflicts helped kill it.
It's difficult.
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Correct, some are obviously trying to herd more people into the AvA, rather than deal with the Original Post and stay on topic. The AvA used to interest me, I don't even give it a thought anymore.
The OP sounds like the AvA with all planes enabled is all. I am on topic as the topic is discussing the idea of the op. Everyone who disagrees with this is not off topic.
Why force a change in the LW MAs rather than tweak the already existing arena devoted to the AvA gameplay?
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The OP sounds like the AvA with all planes enabled is all. I am on topic as the topic is discussing the idea of the op. Everyone who disagrees with this is not off topic.
Why force a change in the LW MAs rather than tweak the already existing arena devoted to the AvA gameplay?
Kilo, all Karnak and I are saying is the Late War arenas are in question. The AvA is a non-interest to the majority of the Community for a few excellent reasons. If we want to "try" (won't happen) and tweak the current AvA, let's devote a new thread to it.
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I understand what the OP is saying, it just won't work and can't work for many reasons. Even if you add the He177A-5 and H8K2 'Emily' in order to give the Axis a couple heavy bombers it still wouldn't work. The P-51 and Spitfire are simply too popular, and that cascades into people picking the side with numbers to avoid being ganged, which in turn leads to fewer subscriptions of German, Japanese and Italian aircraft fans and follows with fewer subscription of Allied aircraft fans due to lack of action and boredom. Nothing HTC does, as long as they are trying to make the aircraft behave like they did, can change that.
This may very well be entirely accurate. If the player base can't even the sides out themselves naturally then it would never work. You make strong points that it would not be able to be balanced simply due to the popularity side of things. Good discussion though and I'm glad I'm seeing the primary reason(s) why it won't probably ever work. It is nice to dream about a full arena with AvA dogfights though isn't it?
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It is nice to dream about a full arena with AvA dogfights though isn't it?
Heh. Yes, it sure is.
- oldman