Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Valkyrie on February 26, 2010, 11:47:53 PM
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After tonight's raging success, the FSO standard should be changed to a no Enemy icon event. With friendly icons on it was easy to tell friend from foe, but you were much better able to lose people, bounce people, and survive. The game play was fantastic and will really add to the FSO immersion factor so often talked about.
I can't wait to see it,
Big <S> to daddog for running the test event and a big WTFG for the absolute success. And again this should be the new FSO standard.
Vlkyrie1
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It was fun and very exciting. But I think we need some more testing.
I for one think that the friendly icon range should be increased. I think there is a risk here that these settings could reduce the amount of action in an event like FSO.
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It was fun but I think limit the "no icon" option for the Combat Challenge, and leaving FSO as is.
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Big monitors will decide alot of fights .
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You know I almost hated to post this as there are sure to be people criticise this who were not there and can't speak intelligently about it.
vlkyrie
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No icons is fine in early war setups, but the reality is the game cannot replicate the fidelity of a Mk 1 eyeball and brain in real life. Icons make up for that. Leave FSO as is please.
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I thoroughly enjoyed it.
The short friendly icon range coupled with the no enemy icon made for a very exciting experience.
You actually had to use the radio and communicate with people. You had to make sure to go and look at cons to be sure if they were friend or foe. When you got engaged you had to keep your wits about you and your eyes open. You had to communicate to your countrymen a lot more and you had to do it quickly and concisely.
It could cut both ways in FSO when it comes to survivability and action. More people will survive due to being able to make better use of ground clutter to escape (that icon really does give them away fast) yet more may die due to friendly fire from people opening up too soon before a proper I.D. has been made (much as it would have happened in real combat). When it comes to the action, we already fly around for hours without seeing a single con some days. I don't see how this will change any of that. What it will do is make it much more invigorating when you do find that action. Scouting missions will be taken to a whole new level of importance, since you can no longer depend on an icon reading from several thousand yards away to determine friend from foe. Scouts will have to use their wits and the tools on hand (they still have a range channel on the Vox don't they?) to determine enemy locations. By the same token, it will be harder for a scouting craft to be busted simply on the glimpse of a red icon 10000 ft away.
Excellent concept. Even if it's not integrated into FSO I will definitely be there for the next Combat Challenge.
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Glad you guys enjoyed it. :)
As I have said in other threads the Arena Settings which include icon ranges are up to each Admin CM. I don't see making icons off an FSO standard despite many asking for that last night. I have an FSO this summer and will probably fiddle with the icons as I did in my last one, but it is my impression (which could be wrong) that most Admin's for FSO will keep the standard short range icon settings we have used successfully for years.
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Big monitors will decide alot of fights .
No icons is fine in early war setups, but the reality is the game cannot replicate the fidelity of a Mk 1 eyeball and brain in real life. Icons make up for that. Leave FSO as is please.
Agree with both of the above. Would also add that local desktop and/or AH settings would also heavily influence who can see what, and when.
I really enjoyed this first sample of the Combat Challenge, and look forward to more "experiments." :)
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Big monitors will decide alot of fights .
Actually with the way AH seems to work (planes past a certain distance take up a single pixel no matter what) the lower your resolution is the better chance you have of spotting someone.
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No icons is fine in early war setups, but the reality is the game cannot replicate the fidelity of a Mk 1 eyeball and brain in real life. Icons make up for that. Leave FSO as is please.
Hit the Z key on your keyboard with maximum zoom and that thing you're focusing on 15000 feet (3000 yards) away has more definition on your 19 inch monitor than a human eyeball can actually see in real life at that distance. The arcade world and all of its excuses are fine for the main arenas but it's been my impression that FSO was supposed to be a big step up from the main arenas...just judging from some of the responses to this thread (and I'm sure there will be many pages more), perhaps it's more like, simply an organized once a week gathering of AvA players who prefer the arcade settings found in the other arenas...if that is the case, may as well just stay in the main arenas and setup missions, then get frustrated because no one wants to participate.
Think about it, in the MA's you rely on the 5000 yard visual cue that says friend or foe...you don't even have to really think, just look at your screen...as you're closing in, the distance markers showing the number of yards between you and the target tell you when you're at the optimum distance for the weapons convergence you set in the hangar and you know when you open fire, you're going to hit the target...as the distance closes it's easy to compensate because of the visual cues...and you can almost shoot down your foe without even focusing on the gunsight. But without those visual cues...now you have to rely on the things you normally take for granted...what does a Spit 8 look like from 5000 yards if it's co alt and coming at you? What does it look like at 300 yards in the gunsight or on your tail? How much lead do you need to hit the target when it's turning? Without the visual cues found in the main arenas, you have to do things you may not normally do...like use the zoom function and adjust it for maximum functionlity just like a tank gun sight...or wait until you get closer to take the shot...don't make that radical stick stirring move that will cause a blackout knowing that when the screen clears it will be easy to find your foe because of the big red letters...use teamwork and communication to help a team mate shoot down a foe...and dropping down into an ongoing fight to get an "easy pick" is a lot more risky.
For those who missed it, the settings last night were challenging but not overly so...situational awareness and communications were more important than usual...if it had been single life instead of the unlimited lives we had, the fights would have been much more intense...and I know there are hundreds who participate in the FSO who constantly talk smack saying "it's about the fight"...well, the settings from last night made those fights much more intense...it's one thing to see a dot in the distance and race toward it relying on identifying marks to appear on your screen eventually telling you whether it's friend or foe...it's a different story to do so then suddenly realize you're less than 1000 yards away from an enemy who is now coming at you full throttle and now you have little time to prepare for a fight...and now the fight isn't so easy.
+Salute+ Daddog and the people who stuck around to make it fun.
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SA and the fight, it was a good time, you would be surprised how many people rely on that icon to location and aiming, without it its a whole new dogfight, i seen enemy crossing in front of me, countrymen on there 6's , with enemy on there 6 it was Intense, cant wait for the next one.
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I wasn't there...and I agree 100% with Valk and Gyrene.
No Icons, Wind & weather should all be the STANDARD. :old:
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Hit the Z key on your keyboard with maximum zoom and that thing you're focusing on 15000 feet (3000 yards) away has more definition on your 19 inch monitor than a human eyeball can actually see in real life at that distance. The arcade world and all of its excuses are fine for the main arenas but it's been my impression that FSO was supposed to be a big step up from the main arenas...just judging from some of the responses to this thread (and I'm sure there will be many pages more), perhaps it's more like, simply an organized once a week gathering of AvA players who prefer the arcade settings found in the other arenas...if that is the case, may as well just stay in the main arenas and setup missions, then get frustrated because no one wants to participate.
Think about it, in the MA's you rely on the 5000 yard visual cue that says friend or foe...you don't even have to really think, just look at your screen...as you're closing in, the distance markers showing the number of yards between you and the target tell you when you're at the optimum distance for the weapons convergence you set in the hangar and you know when you open fire, you're going to hit the target...as the distance closes it's easy to compensate because of the visual cues...and you can almost shoot down your foe without even focusing on the gunsight. But without those visual cues...now you have to rely on the things you normally take for granted...what does a Spit 8 look like from 5000 yards if it's co alt and coming at you? What does it look like at 300 yards in the gunsight or on your tail? How much lead do you need to hit the target when it's turning? Without the visual cues found in the main arenas, you have to do things you may not normally do...like use the zoom function and adjust it for maximum functionlity just like a tank gun sight...or wait until you get closer to take the shot...don't make that radical stick stirring move that will cause a blackout knowing that when the screen clears it will be easy to find your foe because of the big red letters...use teamwork and communication to help a team mate shoot down a foe...and dropping down into an ongoing fight to get an "easy pick" is a lot more risky.
For those who missed it, the settings last night were challenging but not overly so...situational awareness and communications were more important than usual...if it had been single life instead of the unlimited lives we had, the fights would have been much more intense...and I know there are hundreds who participate in the FSO who constantly talk smack saying "it's about the fight"...well, the settings from last night made those fights much more intense...it's one thing to see a dot in the distance and race toward it relying on identifying marks to appear on your screen eventually telling you whether it's friend or foe...it's a different story to do so then suddenly realize you're less than 1000 yards away from an enemy who is now coming at you full throttle and now you have little time to prepare for a fight...and now the fight isn't so easy.
+Salute+ Daddog and the people who stuck around to make it fun.
This is 100% spot on.
I had no trouble at all last night distinguishing friend from foe far beyond friendly icon range despite the fact that the 109 and the Spitfire are very similar in size and fairly similar in shape, save when I was trailing someone from the dead six position. Using zoom (which I use all the time anyway), as gyrene said, it's not difficult at all and probably easier than trying to identify in real life.
The only things that it changed were SA and shooting... I didn't hit anything beside the ground outside of 300 yards (I'm a poor shot anyway).
I never realized how much I relied on the icon, not just for things that you'd think of, but things that you wouldn't... judging range for shooting, obviously, judging friendly or foe instantaneously, obviously (it takes a second to look at the plane shape and identify), but also things like judging my own speed... I must use the closing speed on icons to judge my speed when I'm diving because several times I was going a lot faster than I thought I was and couldn't pull up for the shot.
So many times I thought I was in the clear, and heard 'check six bubi!', and yanked on the stick and turned my head just in time to see a Spitfire shoot by me (or I was simply parted with my aircraft). It was unreal.
It was fantastic, easily the most fun I've had in AH. A more FSO environment (one life, objectives etc.) with these settings would be....
:pray
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No icons is fine in early war setups, but the reality is the game cannot replicate the fidelity of a Mk 1 eyeball and brain in real life. Icons make up for that. Leave FSO as is please.
ICONS make it EASY to track an nme con's period, they in NO way make up for the human eye, the thing a lot seem to forget is the fact that seeing the nme first was the way most got there kills, in AH if you dont see an nme but happen to look around BAMM there is a huge neon sign over them, well that does not simulate the human eye, in the real world you could easily miss an nme right off your 6, I am sure many now realize, how Icons make it WAY easier to see, track and fire upon the nme.
I think FSO should stay the way it is, and the off nights have this "Aces High Challenge" except, remove ALL icons.
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ICONS make it EASY to track an nme con's period, they in NO way make up for the human eye, the thing a lot seem to forget is the fact that seeing the nme first was the way most got there kills, in AH if you dont see an nme but happen to look around BAMM there is a huge neon sign over them, well that does not simulate the human eye, in the real world you could easily miss an nme right off your 6, I am sure many now realize, how Icons make it WAY easier to see, track and fire upon the nme.
Bollocks.
Stereo vision and other visual clues in the real world play a far greater role than AH or any other sim can provide.
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I am not against no icons . I have a question though . Without depth perception <which mine is excellent> and stereoscopic vision , how will the game compensate with out icons for the lack of these ?
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Oddly enough, I had no troubles compensating on my own.
I cannot put my finger on how but it only took a little time before I had the hang of the whole no icon thing.
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I am not against no icons . I have a question though . Without depth perception <which mine is excellent> and stereoscopic vision , how will the game compensate with out icons for the lack of these ?
The depth is there oddly enough, to point...getting used to what your looking at without red or green characters around it is another thing. Not many realize that normally in the game, when they are looking at another aircraft within icon range, thier first point of focus is the icon information, the plane is viewed secondary. You get used to it and depend on that information to tell you what you want to know...with enemy icons off you lose that immediate feedback, you have to focus on the plane itself...after doing it for a while you learn to look for more information from the aircraft object itself...wing and fueslage shape, cowling shape, markings, paint scheme, etc...and you learn to approximate distance just like you would in real life. Admittedly the biggest drawback is the zoom function...unless you adjust your zoom view to a specific point setting every time, it's easy to get confused about the distance to the other plane. I generally set mine so that when I hit the Z key I have a specific view of the dashboard and I leave it there until I get into a bomber or gv...and I have done it enough that I can replicate almost exactly the same view every time.
It sure does cut down on people taking long range potshots...you're not quite so accurate until you get used to the views and you find yourself wanting to get closer before taking a shot...it's a challenge and I suck bad enough I don't need more challenges but I turn enemy icons off almost every time I'm on.
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I guess what I learned to do was watch for the roundels on the RAF planes. When I could pick them out clearly I was close enough to shoot, and hit what I was shooting at.
The information is there, its is a matter of learning to see it, and use it.
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I think I did much the same thing.
I waited until I could see the insignia on the aircraft before I began to shoot. It didn't really help my gunnery much. That still sucked.
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The depth is there oddly enough, to point...getting used to what your looking at without red or green characters around it is another thing. Not many realize that normally in the game, when they are looking at another aircraft within icon range, thier first point of focus is the icon information, the plane is viewed secondary. You get used to it and depend on that information to tell you what you want to know...with enemy icons off you lose that immediate feedback, you have to focus on the plane itself...after doing it for a while you learn to look for more information from the aircraft object itself...wing and fueslage shape, cowling shape, markings, paint scheme, etc...and you learn to approximate distance just like you would in real life. Admittedly the biggest drawback is the zoom function...unless you adjust your zoom view to a specific point setting every time, it's easy to get confused about the distance to the other plane. I generally set mine so that when I hit the Z key I have a specific view of the dashboard and I leave it there until I get into a bomber or gv...and I have done it enough that I can replicate almost exactly the same view every time.
It sure does cut down on people taking long range potshots...you're not quite so accurate until you get used to the views and you find yourself wanting to get closer before taking a shot...it's a challenge and I suck bad enough I don't need more challenges but I turn enemy icons off almost every time I'm on.
Without stereoscopic vision there is no depth period .
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i think they should leave icons on, for those of us who like icons. icons can be shut off manually, so if you dont want em, shut em off. make it an individual choice. i like minimal range icons, but not NO icons.
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Without stereoscopic vision there is no depth period .
Then you need to recheck what you actually see because steroscopic vision is emulated fairly well...according to your judgment (that stereoscopic vision doesn't exist in AH) no one should be able to land a plane or dive toward the ground without augering since depth perception cannot be achieved without it.
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Without stereoscopic vision there is no depth period .
And there is no stereoscopic vision beyond like 10m distance in RL - the difference in angle is just too small. But still it will be cited whenever the icon/no icon discussion comes up. Beyond 10m our brain calculates distances or depth just the same as when staring at your screen - by relative size of objects, memorized pictures like landscapes and fleet point (dunno what the proper word in english is - german: Fucht oder Fluchtpunkt).
Above mentioned is why all those 3D computer gizmos don't work well with sims. Because there is no stereoscopic 3D beyond a certain point. You can get a nice 3D view of your cockpit but it won't change how you see the planes at 300yards - on the contrary you might even get the aquarium effect where those planes will look like fishies in a aquarium or toys in a box because the 3D effect is unrealistic and the object will appear to your brain to be much smaller and closer...
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You're wrong about steroscopic vision past 10m... I've read more than a handful of accounts where the best pilots at spotting distant aircraft were the ones that could (to paraphrase) "focus on infinity" or "unfocus their eye paths" while scanning around so they would be better able to spot stuff further out.
A single spec in the sky is easy to "blur out" and not notice if it's 2 miles out and your eyes are crossing (i.e. "focused") at half a mile.
Anybody defending "no icons" as realistic is just plain wrong, and doesn't understand the facts. We've had countless threads about this over an entire decade of debate. "no icons" loses every time.
Somebody posted a picture from an airline flying 30k-40k over some suburb in texas, clearly showing every detail from cars on the road to bright clear swimming pools in many yards.
Here's Niagara falls from 40k:
http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/605170.jpg
Note that even when blurry the details allow you to see cars and trucks, roads, individual houses and the gaps between them.
REAL pilots have recounted in MANY threads how the human eye can see planes VERY clearly out to certain distances. Where AH has 2 black pixels, you'd already know the plane, it's orientation, colors, and any number of other details.
I've lived near airports (large or small) a number of times in my life. I live under the landing pattern of a small airport now (for the past 3-4 years). You can see EVERY detail on these small planes. Cessnas, some small twins, the occasional lear jet or two. You see everything from sharp color patterns, panel lines for the flaps and (when they're dirty/mucky) all along the belly the panel lines are distinct, you can tell the gear is out, what way it is facing, get a sense of its drift, its descent/ascent, it's acceleration (yes, sometimes they have to gun it a bit and you see them pull forward).
All that and I'm an amature! A real pilot ( or a real fighter pilot, ) can see WAY more than the crap you guys tout as "realistic".
Manuvering for a kill only to find at 200 yards it has RAF roundels on the wing is a totally absurd way to think "this replicates the human eye!"
I wish somebody would find the thread where somebody posted a no-icon screenshot of a plane within guns range or them during a dogfight, asking/polling forum readers what the plane was, it's distance, and orientation (facing you, heading away, etc). Almost nobody got it right. It was a good example of why "no icons" always fails in both gameplay and real world comparison.
P.S. I wonder if most of these "no icons" request come from folks fooled by IL2 "full switch" servers... They are also not realistic. Even the overly-complicated and artificially over-worked TargetWare had an icon system for IDing and ranging aircraft. Even THOSE guys realized that the human eye is way better than "no icons" can provide.
EDIT:
LEGAL DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying you can't enjoy a no-icons event now and again. Definitely SOME of you had a blast. However, trying to change the entire gameplay system of the FSO to meet a false idea of how the human eye works doesn't sit right with me, and I'll speak up to the contrary. Again, not saying "you can't have it your way" -- just saying "don't force me to have it your way too"...
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You're wrong about steroscopic vision past 10m... I've read more than a handful of accounts where the best pilots at spotting distant aircraft were the ones that could (to paraphrase) "focus on infinity" or "unfocus their eye paths" while scanning around so they would be better able to spot stuff further out.
A single spec in the sky is easy to "blur out" and not notice if it's 2 miles out and your eyes are crossing (i.e. "focused") at half a mile.
This is just an example of stereoscopic vision getting in the way... i.e. an advantage of not having it.
Here's Niagara falls from 40k:
http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/605170.jpg
Note that even when blurry the details allow you to see cars and trucks, roads, individual houses and the gaps between them.
Note that cameras usually have a feature known as 'optical zoom'
I've lived near airports (large or small) a number of times in my life. I live under the landing pattern of a small airport now (for the past 3-4 years). You can see EVERY detail on these small planes. Cessnas, some small twins, the occasional lear jet or two. You see everything from sharp color patterns, panel lines for the flaps and (when they're dirty/mucky) all along the belly the panel lines are distinct, you can tell the gear is out, what way it is facing, get a sense of its drift, its descent/ascent, it's acceleration (yes, sometimes they have to gun it a bit and you see them pull forward).
Same here... I know that I can see as much/more with zoom in Aces High than I can in real life.
I wish somebody would find the thread where somebody posted a no-icon screenshot of a plane within guns range or them during a dogfight, asking/polling forum readers what the plane was, it's distance, and orientation (facing you, heading away, etc). Almost nobody got it right. It was a good example of why "no icons" always fails in both gameplay and real world comparison.
The plane in that thread had a head-on orientation to the viewer. Of course it's difficult to identify an aircraft from that orientation. I wish icons would dissapear in Aces High at certain orientations because it's simply near impossible to identify certain aircraft from head on, direct six etc.
P.S. I wonder if most of these "no icons" request come from folks fooled by IL2 "full switch" servers... They are also not realistic. Even the overly-complicated and artificially over-worked TargetWare had an icon system for IDing and ranging aircraft. Even THOSE guys realized that the human eye is way better than "no icons" can provide.
Well right now the requests are coming from those who have experienced identifying and fighting aircraft without icons in Aces High.
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You presume I don't have any experience either. That is incorrect.
Your argument about "at max AH zoom" -- we're not talking about max zoom with a FOV of 2 degrees (or whatever), we're talking full SA normal vision WHILE retaining all the level of detail that AH cannot display. It's much easier to see a sky with a "fight" going on, look at one dot, recognize it, look at another, all while flying into a BFM position to help your pals and hurt your foes, than it is to hit Z, zoom in to the max, adjusting nonstop for the drift of your plane vs your IDd plane, unzoom, find next, rezoom, readjust position ot track target for precious seconds while you try to ID it friend/foe, unzoom, pick the next... By the time you ID 1 target you're in the middle of the fight and screwed.
Realistically? It's just not realistic. Nobody is using max zoom to ID planes, nor should they. Your normal vision helps you do that without needing a zoom.
The niagara falls photo, and many others, can be found if you look. Some may use a zoom lens, some do not. Even real airline pilots have chimed in and said "you can see all that and more" in previous threads. Real airline pilots talking about what they see with their eyes, not talking about zoom lenses.
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You presume I don't have any experience either. That is incorrect.
Your argument about "at max AH zoom" -- we're not talking about max zoom with a FOV of 2 degrees (or whatever), we're talking full SA normal vision WHILE retaining all the level of detail that AH cannot display. It's much easier to see a sky with a "fight" going on, look at one dot, recognize it, look at another, all while flying into a BFM position to help your pals and hurt your foes, than it is to hit Z, zoom in to the max, adjusting nonstop for the drift of your plane vs your IDd plane, unzoom, find next, rezoom, readjust position ot track target for precious seconds while you try to ID it friend/foe, unzoom, pick the next... By the time you ID 1 target you're in the middle of the fight and screwed.
Realistically? It's just not realistic. Nobody is using max zoom to ID planes, nor should they. Your normal vision helps you do that without needing a zoom.
You're telling me that you can focus on a far off object and take the time to examine it while retaining your peripheral vision and keeping the focus of your mind elsewhere?
You can of course identify close up targets very quickly. It's only when things are very far away that you need to use zoom.
Realistically? It's just not realistic. Nobody is using max zoom to ID planes, nor should they.
I do it all the time in the MA's to identify planes that are out of icon range or whose icons are in some other way obscured.
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P.S. I wonder if most of these "no icons" request come from folks fooled by IL2 "full switch" servers... They are also not realistic. Even the overly-complicated and artificially over-worked TargetWare had an icon system for IDing and ranging aircraft. Even THOSE guys realized that the human eye is way better than "no icons" can provide.
EDIT:
LEGAL DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying you can't enjoy a no-icons event now and again. Definitely SOME of you had a blast. However, trying to change the entire gameplay system of the FSO to meet a false idea of how the human eye works doesn't sit right with me, and I'll speak up to the contrary. Again, not saying "you can't have it your way" -- just saying "don't force me to have it your way too"...
You must have played a lot of IL2 and Targetware...because you keep bringing them up. We're talking AH and the 3D environment within AH...not some other game.
Have you tried the no enemy icons setting? And if you have, did you give yourself enough time to stop being dependent on the icons, determine distances and set the zoom function for optimal use in simulating focal point vision? I have, and aside from the limitations of pixel rendering at great distances...no icons can be as close to real world as a pixel rendered 3d environment can get...of course real life is much more vivid and detailed.
Realistically? It's just not realistic. Nobody is using max zoom to ID planes, nor should they. Your normal vision helps you do that without needing a zoom.
You're sure about that? Ever do any long range shooting without a scope? I have, and I can tell you for sure how wrong you are. Stereoscopic vision has nothing to do with the ability to see detail...it's what gives us depth perception...not the ability to focus on a single point and enhance detail like a pair of binoculars. A person can use just one eye to focus on a distant object and see detail to the level that the human eye is capable of. You are correct though that no one uses the max zoom function in AH...they don't generally have to because of the icons and in AH, fighter size aircraft beyond 5000 yds are shown as a dark mass of pixels regardless of how far you zoom in...whereas in real life an object at that range (15,000 feet) an object the size of a WWII fighter would have enough detail to see that it is an airplane.
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So far as FSO going to no icons, not happening. We had around 100-115 people on the other night, FSO has what? 500 plus? Daddog has assured all that asked, that FSO will not be a no icon event.
Now, does that mean that at times a CM will play with the ranges and alts at which icons are present? Don't know for sure, that is up to them. But you can pretty much bet that Combat Challenge will stay as is, when it runs. Many enjoyed it, many presented ideas that can be used in the future, and some cannot be used, its all about playability.
So rather that getting someones undies in a bunch, about whats next, or where its going to happen next, let it go. It was a blast the other night no doubt, I know I initially had trouble, especially locating low cons, but beyond that, it was nothing more than deciding to adapt. Like it or not, it is possible to play this game with no icons, hard YES, but possible. It just adds a challange, that it. For all the thing and ways there are to game this game, no icons presents a real challange. Don't believe it, give it a whirl sometime, you'll get a new rush, just like the one you had when you got you very first victory in game, except now, your gonna work harder for it.
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Icons are screwed up because unless you have a faster airplane than anyone else your going to die. No Icons gives you the ablity to evade which does not exsist now. And FSO in time will be a no icon event.
Vlkyrie1
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Krusty be happy! All you have done is squeak about the icons, I would respect your opinion if you were there. But you weren't so shut up and enjoy the ride into no icon land! Where you will need some more skill to hit with your tater launcher.
Vlkyrie1
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just leave it for the combat challenge, everything else stays as it always has been
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And there is no stereoscopic vision beyond like 10m distance in RL - the difference in angle is just too small. But still it will be cited whenever the icon/no icon discussion comes up. Beyond 10m our brain calculates distances or depth just the same as when staring at your screen - by relative size of objects, memorized pictures like landscapes and fleet point (dunno what the proper word in english is - german: Fucht oder Fluchtpunkt).
Above mentioned is why all those 3D computer gizmos don't work well with sims. Because there is no stereoscopic 3D beyond a certain point. You can get a nice 3D view of your cockpit but it won't change how you see the planes at 300yards - on the contrary you might even get the aquarium effect where those planes will look like fishies in a aquarium or toys in a box because the 3D effect is unrealistic and the object will appear to your brain to be much smaller and closer...
Having played AH (and many other games) in both standard 3D and Stereoscopic 3D I can tell you thats complete rubbish. It makes a huge difference, especially in early war sets with the closer fights. The sense of depth and relative motion is hugely enhanced. No aquarium effect either.
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Uhm Vulcan - it was a fishie aquarium when I tried AH stereoscopic back around in the late '90s with the ELSA shutter glasses and Tomb Raider looked like a toy puppet running around in a shoe box. Maybe the gamecode did change in some way. One question for you Vulcan - how will the game 'tell' the stereoscopic gizmo how far what object is from you? The angle of conversion was manually setable back with the ELSA shutter glasses. So you could zoom in and out the level of what would be displayed in 3D. Unless the game is specifically coded to represent a realistic 3D enviroment I really doubt the effect.
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You're wrong about steroscopic vision past 10m... I've read more than a handful of accounts where the best pilots at spotting distant aircraft were the ones that could (to paraphrase) "focus on infinity" or "unfocus their eye paths" while scanning around so they would be better able to spot stuff further out.
Well, what I said was off the back of my head. Trying to find some scientific proof - will ask my neurologist or ophtalmologist collegues later this month. As for now Wikipedia seems to back what I said here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception).
And furthermore your Top Gun statement basically says that binocular fusional vision is not needed to spot distant objects...
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And speaking of pilot accounts. I read more than a handful of pilot accounts where blue shot blue under the perception it was the enemy! In my Fw-190 bible there is a story of an F8 pilot who 'chased' his flight leader all the way to homebase who was 100% sure he was being attacked by an enemy. I am sure those big roundels and swastiskas were more than just pretty decoration. All that with the perfect human eyeball vision. I am sure you can spot and identify airliners sitting in your rocking chair on your terrace but being in a cramped fighter cockpit, fearing for you life it was a different story.
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I'm not sure I would like this no icon thing in an FSO either. I have enough trouble keeping up with planes with icons much less no icon. I didn't participate in the snapshot they did with this but was told it was fun.
How did you tell the difference in friendly and enemy? My eyes are not good enough to make out that much detail on the planes to know.
Flushed
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Uhm Vulcan - it was a fishie aquarium when I tried AH stereoscopic back around in the late '90s with the ELSA shutter glasses and Tomb Raider looked like a toy puppet running around in a shoe box. Maybe the gamecode did change in some way. One question for you Vulcan - how will the game 'tell' the stereoscopic gizmo how far what object is from you? The angle of conversion was manually setable back with the ELSA shutter glasses. So you could zoom in and out the level of what would be displayed in 3D. Unless the game is specifically coded to represent a realistic 3D enviroment I really doubt the effect.
The game doesn't tell the 'gizmo', the game renders in 3D, each alternate frame is rendered from a different PoV. Sounds like you are referring to separation, the distance between the eyes. Most modern DirectX games render stereo 3D fairly well, up to the 7xxx series nvidia cards. In fact I'm trying to find an old top end card, I want to back to one for stereo 3d (the new nvidia 3d system doesn't support 3rd party products very well).
For me I use a VR headset with 2 OLED panels, so the 3D is represented far better than shutter glasses.
IIRC the elsa glasses used their own driver, and I tried a 3rd party driver recently and found it's 3D rendering not that great compared to the nvidia one. So you probably experienced a sub par stereo 3d driver with shutter glasses, ie not the best way to experience stereo 3d.
I have seen the aquarium effect, but only in the odd 3D movie (an HD one of the Rhein springs to mind).
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Sure, the game renders 3d with 2 different view angles but what relative sizes and distances does it apply? In the 2d world there is no difference between a couple of toy planes 50cm from your POV and real planes 500m from your POV (scale chosen deliberately) - but there is a huge difference in perception in binocular fusional vision - and hence the toy in a shoebox effect when you render the planes stereoscopic although they wouldn't be in RL - the objects appear smaller and closer because that is what we experience everyday.
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As I remember correctly there were 2 things you could adjust on the fly within the ELSA stereoscopic drivers. One might have been the eye-to-eye distance. But the other - the one I meant - was something like shifting the level what would be rendered 3d. So in AH I could set it near to get my cockpit in purdy 3d with the enviroment being the same as in 2d gaming - or I could push the (lets call it) '3d-level' further back which gave me a 2d cockpit (like a past-up or frame) while the landscape and the planes turned three dimensional but with the above mentioned toybox effect.
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I'm not sure I would like this no icon thing in an FSO either. I have enough trouble keeping up with planes with icons much less no icon. I didn't participate in the snapshot they did with this but was told it was fun.
How did you tell the difference in friendly and enemy? My eyes are not good enough to make out that much detail on the planes to know.
Flushed
Whoa, hold on there bud...
Anyone who has the misconception that we're talking no icons at all is wrong...the settings for the combat challenge were no enemy icons and 3k friendly icons...no icons at all would be much tougher, and with killshooter off there would have been more friendly fire kills, until everyone got used to identifying aircraft from a distance.
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Whoa, hold on there bud...
Anyone who has the misconception that we're talking no icons at all is wrong...the settings for the combat challenge were no enemy icons and 3k friendly icons...no icons at all would be much tougher, and with killshooter off there would have been more friendly fire kills, until everyone got used to identifying aircraft from a distance.
exactly, this thread is staring to get mis-informed, where just talking about combat challenge, as far as a new standard it just wouldnt appeal to the masses
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Ok, when I heard the icons would be turned off I assumed it would be friendly ones also. I apologize for my mistake.
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exactly, this thread is staring to get mis-informed, where just talking about combat challenge, as far as a new standard it just wouldnt appeal to the masses
Well TBH, I would push for no enemy icons becoming a standard FSO setting sometime in the future...people squawked about shortened icon range...why? FSO is supposed to be something more challenging than the MAs...and regardless of the "that's the way it has always been" attitude that some may want to cling to...people are constantly whining about how boring AH has gotten, yet they haven't done anything to challenge themselves beyond flying something different.
FSO and scenarios should be more challenging than the MAs in every way possible without making them impossible for cyber pilots to compete...or maybe a simple change is perspective is beyond the ability of some to accept.
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I think Daddog has already addressed this. No enemy icons is NOT the new standard for FSO.
An individual admin CM though can an use different radar / icon settings for their design though and those settings would be specific just to that design (they would not be a standard applied to other designs).
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Sure, the game renders 3d with 2 different view angles but what relative sizes and distances does it apply? In the 2d world there is no difference between a couple of toy planes 50cm from your POV and real planes 500m from your POV (scale chosen deliberately) - but there is a huge difference in perception in binocular fusional vision - and hence the toy in a shoebox effect when you render the planes stereoscopic although they wouldn't be in RL - the objects appear smaller and closer because that is what we experience everyday.
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As I remember correctly there were 2 things you could adjust on the fly within the ELSA stereoscopic drivers. One might have been the eye-to-eye distance. But the other - the one I meant - was something like shifting the level what would be rendered 3d. So in AH I could set it near to get my cockpit in purdy 3d with the enviroment being the same as in 2d gaming - or I could push the (lets call it) '3d-level' further back which gave me a 2d cockpit (like a past-up or frame) while the landscape and the planes turned three dimensional but with the above mentioned toybox effect.
Yup know what you're talking about, I've seen that setting and effect on some drivers. It's the difference between depth 3D and pop-out-3D. Have a look here at http://www.mtbs3d.com/ under Guides/S3D Settings.
Pop out 3D gives you all the problems you've described. Some of the 3D drivers are orientated towards pop-out 3D (suited to a large screen with shutter glasses). The (old) Nvidia did more depth 3D by default, this suits VR style headsets more - and this is what I've always used.
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Disclaimer: This is just my own opinion on icons in flight sims and has nothing to do with what I see for FSO in the future.
First off, the ability to glance at an airplane that is 3000 yards away (short icon range in AH) which is almost 2 miles and immediately tell thats its friend or foe is many orders of magnitude easier to do than telling if it was friend or foe in real life. Even modern fighters with 4th generation electronic kits cannot identify a/n aircraft that easily.
Secondly, and this is important to remember; in the Second World War there was much more censoring of the media than there is now. You were not permitted to write about a lot of things that happened and have then published. Stay with me here, the point is coming...papers of the day did NOT EVER, have an article about what we call now "friendly fire". Further to that, when loved ones were notified about a death, the information rarely if ever included much detail, and it would certainly never have said if Captain X died from an incident from that sort of thing. It was assumed, in almost all cases, that the departed met their end at the hands of the enemy.
So where does that leave us? it leaves us with a somewhat "slanted" view of how common "blue on blue" fire was in WW2. It was not reported to the public, pure and simple. It was im sure considered "bad for morale" and all that. Even amongst the fighting services, it was bit dwelled on for similar reasons.
The fact was that shooting at friendly airplanes was a common problem. WW2 air combat happens at speeds of 200-900 mph (depending on the angle), in hazy, cloudy, sometimes low light surroundings. Its not like walking up to a parked P-51D at an airshow and having a nice long look at it in the noon day sun from 20 feet away nice and calmly, without worrying about getting killed while flying in a real dogfight, with your adrenalin pumped through the roof.
The pilots in those days had no way of knowing who was who without getting close enough to identify an a/c with eyeballs only. Despite HUGE national insignias on the wings and fuselage, they still fired at each other sometimes, even at close range.
My point being that more often than not, enemy a/c were identified by a variety of factors: formation they were in, alt, a/c type, direction of travel, ect, as well as color schemes and finally, closer in, sillouettes and markings. There was no "red sign" sitting above the a/c telling you its an enemy. If there was there would have been no need for D-Day invasion stripes, ID stripes, national insignias and a/c recognition intel posters (which judging from some accounts more than a few pilots and AAA gunners should have spent more time looking at).
So I take the contrary view of some posters and say "dont think because you have icons that has anything to do with reality". Icons are there to help in GAME PLAY, to make it easier for the casual gamer to know who the bad guy is, just as in flight IFF radar is in the Main Arena.
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First off, the ability to glance at an airplane that is 3000 yards away (short icon range in AH) which is almost 2 miles and immediately tell thats its friend or foe is many orders of magnitude easier to do than telling if it was friend or foe in real life. Even modern fighters with 4th generation electronic kits cannot identify a/n aircraft that easily.
I disagree entirely, spotting and identifying an aircraft at 2 miles is not difficult at all. You'll probably find that most blue on blue incidents were cases of 'buck fever', a function of the brain rather than the eye. The USAF did an air to ground target detection study and found pilots were able to spot and identify targets (ie trucks, cars etc) from 6.5 miles to 2.8 miles <- note 2.8 was the minimum - and this is ground targets.
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Im not saying that its "not possible", the difference is the immediate, and unmistakable CERTAINTY of an "icon" which they did not have the benefit of, and changes the dynamic of any engagement.
"a function of the brain rather than the eye."
Exactly. Thats also the problem. Under stress and less than perfect circumstances - too often the case - misidentification is all too easy and the acounts are full of such misadventures, many tragic.
"The USAF did an air to ground target detection study and found pilots were able to spot and identify targets (ie trucks, cars etc) from 6.5 miles to 2.8 miles"
I can picture you diving into a muddy Normandy ditch with a copy of your study under you arm as your jeep is strafed to ruin by a pair of P-47s. ;)
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Then you need to recheck what you actually see because steroscopic vision is emulated fairly well...according to your judgment (that stereoscopic vision doesn't exist in AH) no one should be able to land a plane or dive toward the ground without augering since depth perception cannot be achieved without it.
Do metal parts of the canopy obstruct vision . Parts you could see around in RL ? Find a spot on the wall , close one eye put index finger in front of eye about an inch away . Object can't be seen . This is what you get in AH2 . Open other eye , object can be seen . Now you can't tell how far spot is away . Lower index finger now you can tell how far away it is . Now stereoscopic vision , no depth perception . Stereoscopic vision is a function of two eyes . Depth perception is a function of the slight difference in how the eye is placed . One is slightly further forward of the other . Depth perception emulated I think . Other is not .
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And there is no stereoscopic vision beyond like 10m distance in RL - the difference in angle is just too small. But still it will be cited whenever the icon/no icon discussion comes up. Beyond 10m our brain calculates distances or depth just the same as when staring at your screen - by relative size of objects, memorized pictures like landscapes and fleet point (dunno what the proper word in english is - german: Fucht oder Fluchtpunkt).
Above mentioned is why all those 3D computer gizmos don't work well with sims. Because there is no stereoscopic 3D beyond a certain point. You can get a nice 3D view of your cockpit but it won't change how you see the planes at 300yards - on the contrary you might even get the aquarium effect where those planes will look like fishies in a aquarium or toys in a box because the 3D effect is unrealistic and the object will appear to your brain to be much smaller and closer...
You are confused . Three terms you need to be familiar with distance perception depth perception and stereoscopic vision . Stereoscopic vision in no way relates to distance . Each eye recieves a slightly different "picture" . This data is sent from the eye to the brain where it is processed and fused into one picture . Alternate closing one eye then other . Notice the difference . Do it outside . No matter the range it is slightly different . Distance perception is based upon the memory of the size of objects . Depth Perception" has very specific and limited meaning. This is the distance straight ahead of the viewer's eye, toward or into an object or surface. By definition, depth is looking straight into a hole or tube and estimating forward distances. Doing this accurately requires binocular stereoscopic vision (stereopsis) and may be more difficult or less accurate for people lacking stereopsis. Their depth vision must rely on visual cues other than stereopsis. To have these I believe would require some type of glasses be used . Not sure on that .
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I'm all for a 'no icon' set up when true VR headsets with a decent resolution become the standard for home gaming.
Until then, I will never help populate an event that has them off. I respect the CMs and the work they do, but that is my opinion on it.
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But, Del, it's not a "No icon" even, it's more of a limited icon event, with short friendly icons and no enemy ones.
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You are confused . Three terms you need to be familiar with distance perception depth perception and stereoscopic vision . Stereoscopic vision in no way relates to distance . Each eye recieves a slightly different "picture" . This data is sent from the eye to the brain where it is processed and fused into one picture . Alternate closing one eye then other . Notice the difference . Do it outside . No matter the range it is slightly different . Distance perception is based upon the memory of the size of objects . Depth Perception" has very specific and limited meaning. This is the distance straight ahead of the viewer's eye, toward or into an object or surface. By definition, depth is looking straight into a hole or tube and estimating forward distances. Doing this accurately requires binocular stereoscopic vision (stereopsis) and may be more difficult or less accurate for people lacking stereopsis. Their depth vision must rely on visual cues other than stereopsis. To have these I believe would require some type of glasses be used . Not sure on that .
I am in no way confused. Maybe the inaccuracies come because English is a foreign language for me. Binocular fusional vision or stereoscopic vision as related to depth perception is distance related. It's a matter of simple geometry. If the seen object is beyond a certain distance the angle between this object and your both eyes - or otherwise put - the difference between the two pictures of each eye is two small to compute. That's when you focus to infinity - e.g. beyond 10m or so (still haven't checked with my neurologist collegue).
Now take the thumb example you put up. Imagine a pole at 50m - let's have it a size so it matches the wide of your thumb on your extended arm. As you say you will get two different pictures when looking at your thumb allowing you to 'see behind' it - but that doesn't work with the pole although the obstruction of your FOV is the same. You won't see anything else 'behind' the pole no matter what eye you close or if you look with both.
Other example. I am just watching a pair of PC-21 doing dogfight training maybe about 600m out of my window (really - they do!! :airplane: ). There is no way for me to tell their relative position to each other but the 2D clues you mentioned when you talked about distance perception. Now imagine 2 toy planes at a distance of my extended arm which are about the same size as the real planes further out. I can easily tell their relative position to each other because depth perception thanks to binocular fusional vision works perfectly at this distance.
(http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/pc_21/images/PC-21_1.jpg)
Yet another example. You know the test where you have to put two pencils points on each other. Impossible on the first try with one eye closed - easy with both eyes (unless you lack depth perception as you mentioned - but that's a brain malfunction... :) ). Now imagine a remote controlled device doing the same thing 50m out (again, scale it so it's the same size is the pencils) - having 1 or 2 eyes won't help you with the task since it is beyond the distance of binocular fusional vision for the need of depth perception.
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As I said I will check with someone who HAS to know the facts straight to once and for all settle the issue... :D
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I disagree entirely, spotting and identifying an aircraft at 2 miles is not difficult at all. You'll probably find that most blue on blue incidents were cases of 'buck fever', a function of the brain rather than the eye. The USAF did an air to ground target detection study and found pilots were able to spot and identify targets (ie trucks, cars etc) from 6.5 miles to 2.8 miles <- note 2.8 was the minimum - and this is ground targets.
That's why we don't have any more fratricide incidents due to blue aircraft, right? I can tell you that even the most conspicuous friendly ground vehicles and aircraft can be, have been, and will be again, misidentified by aircraft, even with the most sophisticated optical gear. I've either experienced it first-hand, or been close to it second-hand. Everything from iron-bomb use, to sophisticated imaging devices, to strafing from cannon. Its called "Fog of War", and it will always exist.
I agree with Squire completely. And, if the Combat Challenge event is a bellwether, before my tenure as an FSO Admin is up, we'll have a "no enemy icon" event, at least for the first frame.
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You know I was not very clear here. I mean enemy icons off or there will be chases going on all night between friendly aircraft. Combat Challange was the bell weather for at least that.
Vlkyrie1
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they're slowly lowering it, it used to be 3k then 2.5 then 2k and now 1000yds, so i think they'll get to it.
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If thats so Stoney, thats one event I will miss.
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Jolly, no we are not slowly lowering it. The icon range is up to each admin to set for his event. It is not set by a universal FSO policy or affected by other designs.
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And, if the Combat Challenge event is a bellwether, before my tenure as an FSO Admin is up, we'll have a "no enemy icon" event, at least for the first frame.
All I ask is that you post the frame date well in advance so I can make other plans.
It looks like I will actually be able to start flying in FSO on March 12th on and I don't want any surprises.
Thanks
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Short Icons isn't fun for me. I would hate for FSO to start sucking. Please don't go down that road any farther then you already have...
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That's why we don't have any more fratricide incidents due to blue aircraft, right? I can tell you that even the most conspicuous friendly ground vehicles and aircraft can be, have been, and will be again, misidentified by aircraft
Please do not confuse visual accuracy with 'buck fever'. There is a significant difference.
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LOL I sit here and read this thread at 150% mag because my eyes are so bad and you guys want no icon enemy?? Alot of old codgers will be opted OUT when this is opted IN and I am one of them. The day no enemy icons become the standard is the day I no longer fly FSO.
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LOL I sit here and read this thread at 150% mag because my eyes are so bad and you guys want no icon enemy?? Alot of old codgers will be opted OUT when this is opted IN and I am one of them. The day no enemy icons become the standard is the day I no longer fly FSO.
Agreed, I think the FSO designers are already going too far...
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Please do not confuse visual accuracy with 'buck fever'. There is a significant difference.
You lost me there. Can you explain that?
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If thats so Stoney, thats one event I will miss.
Lucky for you, you won't have to suffer through my events for much longer.
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Is this short icons thing going to continue?
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People with actual visual impairments aside, there are a few of you negative responders who I have seen give people $h!t about being noobs, telling people to learn how to fly, "it's all about the fight" and other such nonesense...yet you cannot challenge yourselves beyond arcade settings uber gamer? That is pathetic.
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Agreed, I think the FSO designers are already going too far...
I love to see FSO where icon in 1000 to no icon on enemy. I creates a greater challenge and will likely effect most people to get multiple kills. However, given what the old fart said, he is right. There are some who have bad eye sight or poor resolution so there for i thing icon should be set at 3 k min.
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LOL I sit here and read this thread at 150% mag because my eyes are so bad and you guys want no icon enemy?? Alot of old codgers will be opted OUT when this is opted IN and I am one of them. The day no enemy icons become the standard is the day I no longer fly FSO.
I have old age eyesight problems as well. Especially trying to pick out and enemy plane against the dark water or terrian. I've noticed that when shooting at somebody on the deck the icon seems to be more of a hinderence because my eyes are automatically attracted to the icon and not the enemy plane. Have you ever had this problem? I've actually turned my icons off in instances like this so I could better see the plane I was fighting. Sometimes the big red icon actually causes me more problems than it solves.
People with actual visual impairments aside, there are a few of you negative responders who I have seen give people $h!t about being noobs, telling people to learn how to fly, "it's all about the fight" and other such nonesense...yet you cannot challenge yourselves beyond arcade settings uber gamer? That is pathetic.
I'm not sure you can call it pathetic, maybe set in their ways is more like it. Icons has long been a hot potato. The funny thing is Daddog mentioned that the no enemy icons setting were for the Combat Challenge not the FSO. Now we got a whole thread of fighting and speculation over it. I don't see why it would hurt to run a few test frames than maybe have a poll or vote by the FSO community. It could end being not the boogy man some think and not the realism holy grail others think. There's a lot of excitement and fighting over something that may not even happen.
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I personally think 1000yards icon range is to short. It should be nothing less the 1.5k. The siloute of the planes is nothing like in real life where u can tell what direction they are heading or what type of plane. They can have gun solutions on u before u even know what they are. Guns will reach out and touch ya at 1k, even the taters. These reasons alone should not allow icon range to be set less then 1.5k.
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They can have gun solutions on u before u even know what they are. Guns will reach out and touch ya at 1k, even the taters. These reasons alone should not allow icon range to be set less then 1.5k.
I agree 100%. This is exactly what happened to me (by you Dogg <S>) during last nights FSO frame. One second I was clear, the next I had you behind me in gun range shooting.
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hehe, that because I came from ur 4-5 o'clock low while u shouwing ur belly to me in a turn. When I actually got gun solution on ya is when u noticed I was there at 400 or less. U then tried to out turn a i-16 with a 109E which wasn't gonna happen, hehehe. What u were actually succeeding on is using ur speed. You should have dove out and doing little jinx's to get away. I-16 is not fast,lol. We didn't really bother with the Ju-88's because of the fact we know we couldn't really kill them effectively and survive from there escorts. We took the fighters first round and downed most of ya. When the bombers returned, we tried to get them with little opposition. But with the lack of lethality of the I-16 4x7.62mm guns vers a bomber, most ju-88's survived even after we unloaded most of our bullets on yas. I-16's would have been nice to have at least the 50cal option for the bombers.
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I have old age eyesight problems as well. Especially trying to pick out and enemy plane against the dark water or terrian. I've noticed that when shooting at somebody on the deck the icon seems to be more of a hinderence because my eyes are automatically attracted to the icon and not the enemy plane. Have you ever had this problem? I've actually turned my icons off in instances like this so I could better see the plane I was fighting. Sometimes the big red icon actually causes me more problems than it solves.
I have the same issue even though I'm looking using a 22 inch monitor...and my vision is 20/10 corrected...with fights on the deck, you end up shooting at the flippin icon and not the plane...I've turned the enemy icons off and plane identification has gotten easier to the point of "oh crap it's a spitfire"...not spitfire VIII at 800 and closing...and I use the zoom function more...now if I could just shoot better. :joystick:
The real challenge is identifying and trying to kill enemy gv's without augering...
I'm not sure you can call it pathetic, maybe set in their ways is more like it. Icons has long been a hot potato. The funny thing is Daddog mentioned that the no enemy icons setting were for the Combat Challenge not the FSO. Now we got a whole thread of fighting and speculation over it. I don't see why it would hurt to run a few test frames than maybe have a poll or vote by the FSO community. It could end being not the boogy man some think and not the realism holy grail others think. There's a lot of excitement and fighting over something that may not even happen.
I said pathetic due to the attitudes I've seen some of the naysayers in this thread have displayed toward others knowing that without thier precious icons they aren't any better than anyone else. We all know where a poll or vote would go...20 regular forum hounds would make the decision for 400 people who have no clue since they don't even bother reading the forums...and of those 20 regular forum hounds, only 6 or 7 of us would like to see this one change implemented at some point. I guaranty the aerial kill stats for each event would be different until everyone got used to the views.
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We all know where a poll or vote would go...20 regular forum hounds would make the decision for 400 people who have no clue since they don't even bother reading the forums...and of those 20 regular forum hounds, only 6 or 7 of us would like to see this one change implemented at some point. I guaranty the aerial kill stats for each event would be different until everyone got used to the views.
Every squad that participates in the FSO should have it's CO or XO monitoring this BBS Section. They could encourage their squadmates to vote on if they like or dislike the icon settings that way it's not left to forum hounds. Run the settings at no enemy icons for a few frames and then vote. It would be a good way to settle an old argument, plus if the majority of FSO pilots would vote it would be the community's preference. YMMV
<S>
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I disagree entirely, spotting and identifying an aircraft at 2 miles is not difficult at all. You'll probably find that most blue on blue incidents were cases of 'buck fever', a function of the brain rather than the eye. The USAF did an air to ground target detection study and found pilots were able to spot and identify targets (ie trucks, cars etc) from 6.5 miles to 2.8 miles <- note 2.8 was the minimum - and this is ground targets.
That explains all the blue on blue attacks by A-10s in Iraq and Afghanistan. These are pilots trained in CAS and FAC tactics. Studies and actual combat are two different things.
Saburo Sakai claimed to have spotted B-17s sitting on the field at Clark AirField from miles away. Nine months later he flys up behind a group of TBMs thinking they're F4Fs and gets his
himself and his bird shot to ribbons.
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Every squad that participates in the FSO should have it's CO or XO monitoring this BBS Section. They could encourage their squadmates to vote on if they like or dislike the icon settings that way it's not left to forum hounds. Run the settings at no enemy icons for a few frames and then vote. It would be a good way to settle an old argument, plus if the majority of FSO pilots would vote it would be the community's preference. YMMV
<S>
I'm all for that. The only way for the entire FSO community to be heard is via e-mail. If every rank and file member of the community agreed to have their email address given to the FSO CM staff, then mass emails could be sent for a voting process. A very simple way to get the pulse of the enemy icon range debate.
Just my 2 cents. :)
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I'm all for short icons (1.0-1.5k), but not off altogther. Last night I spotted a small group of dots heading to A126 which we were tasked to protect. Long before icon range, I could tell they were bombers from the size and profile, and could tell their direction. I had no idea what kind they were or exactly how far away they were until I was seconds away from firing. If they would have had escorts, it would have been much more difficult to determine their (the escorts) type and direction until they were well inside guns range (mine and theirs).
While I like the "fog of war" that the settings in FSO provide, there's a point that I hope we don't cross where the game (and yes, it's a game) becomes more work than game. I'm no aircraft profile expert, and am not well versed in the planes and weapons of WWII. I found a fun game to play that offers many fun challenges. I would rather it not start requiring hours of research and study to be able to tell a 109 from a 190 from a Spitfire from 2k out.
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Every squad that participates in the FSO should have it's CO or XO monitoring this BBS Section. They could encourage their squadmates to vote on if they like or dislike the icon settings that way it's not left to forum hounds. Run the settings at no enemy icons for a few frames and then vote. It would be a good way to settle an old argument, plus if the majority of FSO pilots would vote it would be the community's preference. YMMV
<S>
Like that idea shifty.
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icons off wouldn't work the current setup, don't we have 109's on both sides? don't mind short but not off.
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I really wished Valkyrie had picked another title for this thread. ;) So many who peruse the forums once and a while read the thread title and get worked up. Replies of CM's get buried and unless someone wants to read dozens of replies they really don't know what the Admin CM's have said.
As far as a poll, maybe. I like polls, but really the only poll that would hold a 100% weight with me would be one that HTC would have to setup for the 500 FSO players log in and have to take one concerning icons. A poll in the FSO forums would only weigh the opinion of those who read the forums. I am guessing 2/3 at the most of the FSO participants, might be closer to 1/3.
Again, just to be clear I have no intention of turning off all the icons in FSO. Some Admin CM's may opt for enemy icons off, or maybe a shorter range for enemy icons and longer for friendly, or maybe just keep it as is. It is up to each CM how they design their event. Enemy icons off is NOT a new FSO standard.
Some of you hate icons off. Some of you love it. I get that. Some of you think it is more 'realistic', some call it more challenging. Some think it is totally unrealistic and others think it is 'gamey'. My PM box abounds with opinions, just like this thread. ;) Some of you will not participate in FSO if the icons are off. I get that. No different than a squad that has lower attendance because they get saddled with a ride they don't want and a couple guys decide not to fly that night. So long as squads keep in the +2 or -2 they will never hear from me.
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icons off wouldn't work the current setup, don't we have 109's on both sides? don't mind short but not off.
Pfft anybody flying a 109 should be shot down no matter what side they fly for. :D
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The worst part about all this is that you guys change the icon settings from FSO to FSO without telling anyone. If i would have known you were going to have them at such a short range, I would have not even bothered to show up last night. I could have gone and done something more fun. Icons are the great equalizer for people without big monitors or good eyesight. Turning them off is IMO stupid, and takes away from GAMEplay. 3k Is the ideal icon range in FSOs, and it has worked for years. This is not real life or even a simulation. This is a game. Dont kid yourselves.
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You lost me there. Can you explain that?
Sometimes people see what they want to see, especially under stressful situations. The most significant part of vision is not the eyeball, but the brain. Buck fever is sometimes used to describe hunters who 'see' a deer, but it's something else, and no matter how clear the image is they still see a deer (this is when a lot of other hunters get shot).
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While I realize that DD has no intention of making FSO a "no icon" event,I would like to be informed ahead of time as to the icon settings. Stating that icon range is short was ok before the CM's were given the ability to adjust the icon range as they have now.
Seeing that the icon range can be changed to various alts,etc. maybe stating in the setup what the actual range{s} will be might make enough of a difference that players wont complain so much.
ya I live in a fantasy world....... :airplane:
:salute
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When we were on patrol last night, we were able to identify the enemies from 3k out without using icons, as we could see that they had large wingspans and two engines. They almost slipped under us because of the lack of icons. I like it because it requires us to stay on our toes.
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The worst part about all this is that you guys change the icon settings from FSO to FSO without telling anyone. If i would have known you were going to have them at such a short range, I would have not even bothered to show up last night. I could have gone and done something more fun.
This is on the Special Events website for FSO when clicking current set-up link.
ARENA SETTINGS
- Greece
- Fuel 1.00
- Icons short
- .5 Ack
- Radar (Bar only) : 60 mile range,10 minute update, altitude 500 ft and up
- Fighter and Bomber warning range 26,000 (about 5 miles)
- Tower range set to 26,000 (for display only to match the above setting)
- Clouds / visibility
Frame 1, 9 miles
Frame 2, 11 miles
Frame 3, 8 miles
- Radar off
- Friendly collisions off
- Enemy collisions on
- Kill shooter off
- Calm winds
- Time: 11 AM
The information was available to you if you took the time to look.
Icons are the great equalizer for people without big monitors or good eyesight. Turning them off is IMO stupid, and takes away from GAMEplay. 3k Is the ideal icon range in FSOs, and it has worked for years. This is not real life or even a simulation. This is a game. Dont kid yourselves.
That part I agree with you. We don't want to create a situation where every player who wants to excel at FSO would need to save lots of money for purchasing a very large monitor around 32 inches or greater. My opinion is 2K at the mininum nothing lesser.
In hindsight, this one time made a new experience in the fact that the not knowing of the bogey until the last minute was a bandit created a new thrill. That's all.
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We don't want to create a situation where every player who wants to excel at FSO would need to save lots of money for purchasing a very large monitor around 32 inches or greater.
:lol
Just out of curiosity where do you guys come up with these numbers? I'm not going to deny that a larger monitor can have a marginal (maybe more IDK I haven't tried it) effect on identifying dots out of icon range, but during the combat challenge I could tell 109's from Spitfires easily from outside of friendly icon range (3.0K) on my 22" monitor (which I know is bigger than average...).
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This is on the Special Events website for FSO when clicking current set-up link.
ARENA SETTINGS
- Greece
- Fuel 1.00
- Icons short
- .5 Ack
- Radar (Bar only) : 60 mile range,10 minute update, altitude 500 ft and up
- Fighter and Bomber warning range 26,000 (about 5 miles)
- Tower range set to 26,000 (for display only to match the above setting)
- Clouds / visibility
Frame 1, 9 miles
Frame 2, 11 miles
Frame 3, 8 miles
- Radar off
- Friendly collisions off
- Enemy collisions on
- Kill shooter off
- Calm winds
- Time: 11 AM
The information was available to you if you took the time to look.
That part I agree with you. We don't want to create a situation where every player who wants to excel at FSO would need to save lots of money for purchasing a very large monitor around 32 inches or greater. My opinion is 2K at the mininum nothing lesser.
In hindsight, this one time made a new experience in the fact that the not knowing of the bogey until the last minute was a bandit created a new thrill. That's all.
LOL what does "icons short" mean? It could mean anything from 2.9k to 1 yard. That tells me nothing. Ive seen icon short listed in settings before and it wasnt 1k. Real numbers would be nice.
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I really wished Valkyrie had picked another title for this thread. ;) So many who peruse the forums once and a while read the thread title and get worked up. Replies of CM's get buried and unless someone wants to read dozens of replies they really don't know what the Admin CM's have said.
As far as a poll, maybe. I like polls, but really the only poll that would hold a 100% weight with me would be one that HTC would have to setup for the 500 FSO players log in and have to take one concerning icons. A poll in the FSO forums would only weigh the opinion of those who read the forums. I am guessing 2/3 at the most of the FSO participants, might be closer to 1/3.
Again, just to be clear I have no intention of turning off all the icons in FSO. Some Admin CM's may opt for enemy icons off, or maybe a shorter range for enemy icons and longer for friendly, or maybe just keep it as is. It is up to each CM how they design their event. Enemy icons off is NOT a new FSO standard.
Some of you hate icons off. Some of you love it. I get that. Some of you think it is more 'realistic', some call it more challenging. Some think it is totally unrealistic and others think it is 'gamey'. My PM box abounds with opinions, just like this thread. ;) Some of you will not participate in FSO if the icons are off. I get that. No different than a squad that has lower attendance because they get saddled with a ride they don't want and a couple guys decide not to fly that night. So long as squads keep in the +2 or -2 they will never hear from me.
Well Put!!!
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As far as a poll, maybe. I like polls, but really the only poll that would hold a 100% weight with me would be one that HTC would have to setup for the 500 FSO players log in and have to take one concerning icons. A poll in the FSO forums would only weigh the opinion of those who read the forums. I am guessing 2/3 at the most of the FSO participants, might be closer to 1/3.
this is how ALL polls should be set up regarding anything to do with Aces High Game Play, imo......
that way, only HTC employees, themselves, could compute the data and show us the results.......
having a POLL in the forums, it is possible to see the current standings and skew them one way or the other, if the need or desire was there to manipulate the results.....
again, my opinion, YMMV....... :cheers:
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I really wished Valkyrie had picked another title for this thread. ;) So many who peruse the forums once and a while read the thread title and get worked up. Replies of CM's get buried and unless someone wants to read dozens of replies they really don't know what the Admin CM's have said.
As far as a poll, maybe. I like polls, but really the only poll that would hold a 100% weight with me would be one that HTC would have to setup for the 500 FSO players log in and have to take one concerning icons. A poll in the FSO forums would only weigh the opinion of those who read the forums. I am guessing 2/3 at the most of the FSO participants, might be closer to 1/3.
Again, just to be clear I have no intention of turning off all the icons in FSO. Some Admin CM's may opt for enemy icons off, or maybe a shorter range for enemy icons and longer for friendly, or maybe just keep it as is. It is up to each CM how they design their event. Enemy icons off is NOT a new FSO standard.
Some of you hate icons off. Some of you love it. I get that. Some of you think it is more 'realistic', some call it more challenging. Some think it is totally unrealistic and others think it is 'gamey'. My PM box abounds with opinions, just like this thread. ;) Some of you will not participate in FSO if the icons are off. I get that. No different than a squad that has lower attendance because they get saddled with a ride they don't want and a couple guys decide not to fly that night. So long as squads keep in the +2 or -2 they will never hear from me.
I know our squad has had a lot of lousy FSOs this past few months. And mostly due to a few things. Tampering with icon ranges, adding winds, and manual calibration. We need to stay on course with what has been the FSO years previous. There is no need to experiment with these areas. The problem wont be maintaining a +2/-2 and getting warnings of participation, it will be whole squads planning to spend friday nights in the MA...and worse..just not caring about it.
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:lol
Just out of curiosity where do you guys come up with these numbers? I'm not going to deny that a larger monitor can have a marginal (maybe more IDK I haven't tried it) effect on identifying dots out of icon range, but during the combat challenge I could tell 109's from Spitfires easily from outside of friendly icon range (3.0K) on my 22" monitor (which I know is bigger than average...).
This is more a technical issue in regards to players having different video card, monitor sizes, resolutions, internet connection, and other stuff. What it really comes own to how well the eyeballs work.
I have a 17inch monitor and would really like to have one alot bigger. Maybe one day I will. :D
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Icons short means 3k.
It was an error on my part when it was set to 1k. That is what I get for trying to do 8 things at once including help with the setup.
Anytime a setup says short icon range it means 3k. If it is anything other than 3k (short), it will be listed/addressed in the write up. If it is not what the write up said then we made a mistake.
For those of you that think CM's will just list short and not tell anyone what short means your sadly mistaken and really miss the mark on what CM's try to do for the events community.
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Its time to end this. I picked the title to get attention. Its worked. Now turn the damn icons off and put the old men to bed. 11:00 eastern is past all their bed times anyway. I'm really sick of people opining who were not there and did not see it, but bash it they do. Its the mark of a fool. And we seem to be living in the age of the fool.
Move on and lets join the 21st century
Vlkyrie1
:airplane:
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Its time to end this. I picked the title to get attention. Its worked. Now turn the damn icons off and put the old men to bed.
LOL, that's sig material there.
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Its time to end this. I picked the title to get attention. Its worked. Now turn the damn icons off and put the old men to bed. 11:00 eastern is past all their bed times anyway. I'm really sick of people opining who were not there and did not see it, but bash it they do. Its the mark of a fool. And we seem to be living in the age of the fool.
Move on and lets join the 21st century
Vlkyrie1
:airplane:
Hmm just when I thought this thread was about to run out of steam. :lol
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Hmm just when I thought this thread was about to run out of steam. :lol
He's just a troll.
Or totally ignorant.
Either way, don't feed him. :D
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He's just a troll.
Or totally ignorant.
Either way, don't feed him. :D
Yeah I closed the fridge and locked the pantry.
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Its time to end this. I picked the title to get attention. Its worked. Now turn the damn icons off and put the old men to bed. 11:00 eastern is past all their bed times anyway. I'm really sick of people opining who were not there and did not see it, but bash it they do. Its the mark of a fool. And we seem to be living in the age of the fool.
I was there and I did see it. I don't want to see FSO turned into a Warbirds arena just because some snot nosed kid tweaking on red bull wants his icons off. FSO has grown to be a truely awesome event, this one 'adjustment' could easily destroy it.
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I was there and I did see it. I don't want to see FSO turned into a Warbirds arena just because some snot nosed kid tweaking on red bull wants his icons off. FSO has grown to be a truely awesome event, this one 'adjustment' could easily destroy it.
Please enlighten us with your wisdom...how would turning enemy icons off destroy FSO or be similar to Warbirds in any manner? If you personally need enemy icons for some reason other than as a crutch then speak up...I'm guessing you had a hard time trying not to get shot down and don't want to have to face that situation again.
Bad news for you (and some others)...I don't like the possibility that I might have to be allied for an event, or being assigned to a bomber, or ordered to carry bombs for a dive bombing mission...and most of my squad feels the same way but the only thing that stops us from participating is the occasional real life issue that pops up...otherwise we fly what we are assigned and do what we are assigned to do...that is how adults do things.
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Constantly putting yourself on an abritrary pedestal and calling everybody else weak fools for "needing" icons is only going to get your proverbial forum arse kicked, son.
Might want to take a huge dose of wisdom, humility, and understanding (in any order) and realise how baseless your insults really are.
Everybody has explained to you why icons are here and why "no icons" is as far from realistic as possible, yet you and your 3 other fellow crusaders keep harping about it and insulting anybody who doesn't agree.
Nice....
Smooth.
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Icons short means 3k.
It was an error on my part when it was set to 1k. That is what I get for trying to do 8 things at once including help with the setup.
Anytime a setup says short icon range it means 3k. If it is anything other than 3k (short), it will be listed/addressed in the write up. If it is not what the write up said then we made a mistake.
For those of you that think CM's will just list short and not tell anyone what short means your sadly mistaken and really miss the mark on what CM's try to do for the events community.
Fair enough. These days with the new settings I'm sure it can be hard getting it all straight. However, It would be nice if instead of "short icons" in the setup, the CMs would list the actual range no matter what it may be. With the new settings, "short" really doesn't mean much anymore. It is going to lead to a lot of confusion to people who dont know that it means 3k.
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And that is what I am going to do from now on .. give the setup CMs the exact value for icon ranges from now on and also in my description denote it as 3K yards (9000 ft).
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I know our squad has had a lot of lousy FSOs this past few months. And mostly due to a few things. Tampering with icon ranges, adding winds, and manual calibration. We need to stay on course with what has been the FSO years previous. There is no need to experiment with these areas. The problem wont be maintaining a +2/-2 and getting warnings of participation, it will be whole squads planning to spend Friday nights in the MA...and worse..just not caring about it.
You would pull your squad from FSO because of winds and bombing calibrations? :headscratch: Seems extreme to me, so many here want some realism, and the forces of mother nature is one good way to do it. So far as bomb calibration, just not really a big deal to me, do it a couple times, and its all good, maybe you won't hit a 100%, but bet your butt, you'll have a better hit % than most all real life WWII bombardiers, cause the only guaranteed hit they were getting was, hitting the ground. :bolt:
:salute
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Everybody has explained to you why icons are here and why "no icons" is as far from realistic as possible,
If you mean using the same well groomed, long prepared rhetoric that has manifested itself here without question (including from me) for years because no one has actually tried anything to the contrary, I would agree.
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If you mean using the same well groomed, long prepared rhetoric that has manifested itself here without question (including from me) for years because no one has actually tried anything to the contrary, I would agree.
Except some of us have tried, both in the combat challenge and AVA.
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Please enlighten us with your wisdom...how would turning enemy icons off destroy FSO or be similar to Warbirds in any manner? If you personally need enemy icons for some reason other than as a crutch then speak up...I'm guessing you had a hard time trying not to get shot down and don't want to have to face that situation again.
Bad news for you (and some others)...I don't like the possibility that I might have to be allied for an event, or being assigned to a bomber, or ordered to carry bombs for a dive bombing mission...and most of my squad feels the same way but the only thing that stops us from participating is the occasional real life issue that pops up...otherwise we fly what we are assigned and do what we are assigned to do...that is how adults do things.
Bad news for me and some others? What bad news? Daddog has stated icons stay as is. Learn to read sonny ;)
and as for not getting shot down, lets have a look at the combat challenge logs:
21:57:39 Departed from Field #36 in a Bf 109F-4
22:19:23 Helps IrishOne shoot down 68Wooley.
22:44:49 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #48.
23:06:32 Was shot down by unknown enemy.
23:07:15 Departed from Field #45 in a Bf 109F-4
23:16:09 Was shot down by unknown enemy.
23:16:44 Departed from Field #46 in a Bf 109F-4
23:21:36 Was shot down by Vlkyrie1 (crashed).
23:22:31 Departed from Field #46 in a Bf 109E-4
23:25:19 Helps Bubi shoot down Cattb.
23:29:27 Was shot down by Reaper90 (crashed).
4 deaths, no kills there kiddo... versus...
Vulcan
21:57:09 Departed from Field #49 in a Bf 109F-4
22:14:22 Was shot down by unknown enemy.
22:14:42 Departed from Field #49 in a Bf 109F-4
22:23:00 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by HacksawX.
22:27:34 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by P5ifTone.
22:28:32 Helps Hitcher3 shoot down 68Bwulf.
22:31:53 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #45.
22:42:52 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by Cope.
22:42:56 Tragically crashed.
22:43:01 Departed from Field #49 in a Bf 109F-4
22:46:20 Awarded kill as plissken crashes.
22:46:35 Shot down a Lancaster III flown by rattler2.
22:46:51 Shot down a Lancaster III flown by plissken.
22:47:08 Helps Robeaver shoot down plissken.
22:51:03 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #49.
23:06:39 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by Rockdog.
23:07:35 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by 1Cajun.
23:13:45 Awarded kill as Rebel59 crashes.
23:14:04 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by Rockdog.
23:15:29 Captured by enemy forces.
3 deaths, 10 kills.
Whoops what was that you were saying? :)
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Constantly putting yourself on an abritrary pedestal and calling everybody else weak fools for "needing" icons is only going to get your proverbial forum arse kicked, son.
Might want to take a huge dose of wisdom, humility, and understanding (in any order) and realise how baseless your insults really are.
Everybody has explained to you why icons are here and why "no icons" is as far from realistic as possible, yet you and your 3 other fellow crusaders keep harping about it and insulting anybody who doesn't agree.
Nice....
Smooth.
Krusty, there is nothing arbitrary about my pedestal...it stands higher than yours because I'm not the one doing the childish "it's my ball and I'm going home because" routine...you are far from being old enough or big enough to call me son and insinuate you could do anything more than nod when standing in my presence.
Fact is icons are a crutch put in place to level the playing field for everyone...and if there were no enemy icons enabled in the program from the early days, everyone today, including yourself would be crying foul if someone came along and suggested that enemy icons should be used. When an icon appears with a description and distance indicator for every object I look at in real life, then your assertion of icons being more realistic will not be argued against...but as it stands right now in real world outside of AH, there are no icons and no distance indicators telling us how far something is from our bodies.
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Fact is icons are a crutch put in place to level the playing field for everyone
Fact is icons are in place as the game cannot render or provide the fidelity in both stereoscopic vision and depth cues the real world provides.
p.s you 'pedestal' has been kicked out, see above.
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Bad news for me and some others? What bad news? Daddog has stated icons stay as is. Learn to read sonny ;)
and as for not getting shot down, lets have a look at the combat challenge logs:
4 deaths, no kills there kiddo... versus...
3 deaths, 10 kills.
Whoops what was that you were saying? :)
Nice job there Vulcan...but then I'm not the one crying foul about no enemy icons in spite of those numbers...you are sonny. Maybe you should re-read everything in this thread, it's no enemy icons and every CM has the choice on what settings to use...the no enemy icons was an experiment which turned out pretty well for a first time thing...and we all know that the no enemy icons setting won't be something adopted any time in the near future, but as more people with open minds and a taste for bigger challenges experience it...who knows what the future holds?
some snot nosed kid tweaking on red bull wants his icons off.
Amazing how the pots call the kettles black around here.
I just wonder what you would be saying if there were no enemy icons in the game when you first started playing...would you be as strong arguing against turning them on as you are about turning them off? Think about it...if AH didn't have enemy icons on in the first place, would you want them turned on?
Fact is icons are in place as the game cannot render or provide the fidelity in both stereoscopic vision and depth cues the real world provides.
p.s you 'pedestal' has been kicked out, see above.
You just hurt your foot...try studying stereoscopic vision instead of parroting what someone else brought up...depth perception is a result of stereoscopic vision...and depth perception is fairly well modelled in AH, or are you insinuating AH is just a 2D environment? What is not well modelled is focal point vision which allows us to see details on objects at distance without the aid of telescopic enhancements...but that is a limitation of the scaled down environment and texture rendering...in AH objects at 1000 yards do not have the amount of detail a human with 20/20 vision could see...it's more like 20/80 or maybe 20/100 vision...but the depth is there to the point where if a person were to get used to looking at the objects with and without distance indicators, that person would learn to tell relative distances in AH without distance any assistance from distance indicators...just like we do in real life...even people with just one good eye.
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Except some of us have tried, both in the combat challenge and AVA.
Some of you have...
I don't think Icons have ever been off in the AvA, considering when asked if they would consider it as a setting a couple days/weeks ago it seemed as if they'd never even thought about it before... but I haven't been in the AvA since no icons was made possible (what was that, December '09)?
And I don't think Krusty (or pretty much anyone on 'the other side' beside you...) attended Combat Challenge.
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Krusty is mad because if the icons go away he wont hit toejam with his 30mm tater launchers on his Fascist iron. He might have to out fly his opponent for once.
Vlkyrie1
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I give a big salute to the CM staff for trying something different.. And for all the work they put in each week to provide us with these scenarios.. I personally feel the short icon range makes for a more challenging twist but I can also understand why many would hate it.. So while I'm not casting a 'vote' so to speak, either way I think it's cool that the guys are trying to increase immersion and keep things fresh.. It would be nice not to see this thread turn into the typical slew of insults and bashing found in the general forum.. :salute
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You just hurt your foot...try studying stereoscopic vision instead of parroting what someone else brought up...depth perception is a result of stereoscopic vision...and depth perception is fairly well modelled in AH, or are you insinuating AH is just a 2D environment?
Err perhaps you should check the icon threads. You'll note that I've played AH quite a lot in stereoscopic 3D. I use a Z-800 Virtual Reality Headset with Dual OLED Displays (have done for about 4 years now). Full Depth perception needs a lot more fidelity than any computer game can provide, and whilst you can play AH in stereoscopic 3D (something I doubt you've done) the majority of users do not have this tech available to them (and there are side issues with 3D tech and peoples vision I won't go into).
So, yet again you fail - massively.
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Out of curiosity, Vulcan, did you really think that you had an advantage with SS 3D (if you used it during the combat challenge?)
I had no issue (which is obvious from the logs) despite that being my first time flying in weeks, with just a standard monitor.
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Out of curiosity, Vulcan, did you really think that you had an advantage with SS 3D (if you used it during the combat challenge?)
I had no issue (which is obvious from the logs) despite that being my first time flying in weeks, with just a standard monitor.
Yes definitely, you could pick energy states and relative motion very clearly. It made for very good snap shots. Usually this was in the AVA ages ago when icons were off or extremely short range. Though I did find the faster the ride the less the SS 3D played a part unless you got into a very close knife fight.
The reason I stopped using SS 3D was a video card upgrade, I went from a 7600GT to a GTX 285. The new nvidia drivers do not support 3rd party 3D products - only their own 3D Vision stuff. I've been experimenting with the IZ3D driver, but that doesn't work well with AH. Rumour is ATI are releasing DirectX S3D drivers with their 10.3 driver release, so I might have to switch camps from nvidia to ATI.
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Ignoring the constant ego-boosting that gyrene is giving himself (get a room, man! or we're going to call the cops!) I have to reply to motherland: No I did not participate in "combat challenge" because I have already done no-icons things in the past. It has not changed much.
A number of folks had fun in combat challenge, but you cannot say they would have had less fun with the icons on. Had the idea simply come up as an off-week filler fun night, the same folks (maybe more?) would have showed up, flown the same mission, and had the same fun.
Saying it was all because of the icon setting is a little rich, no?
Hell, I was flying no-icon missions with Frank back in HTH eons ago. Couldn't see the white invasion stripes on a P-51B until you were 200 out, saddled up, and about to shoot down your friendly.
P.S. Your comments in the other thread are a little rich too. I've seen airlines way the hell above me (DIA is quite busy) and you can spot the colors. Nobody's saying they're blotted out by the sun. From an airliner window seat you can also look DOWN on the world with quality only limited by the haze in the air (not the lack of vision on the person), and you cannot tell the difference in the shape of aircraft without "max zoom" settings until it's far too late to do anything about it.
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Saying it was all because of the icon setting is a little rich, no?
It was 100% because of the icon settings. It was just a standard furball otherwise. Everyone's seen that before.
Hell, I was flying no-icon missions with Frank back in HTH eons ago. Couldn't see the white invasion stripes on a P-51B until you were 200 out, saddled up, and about to shoot down your friendly.
C'Mon you can't complain about 'ridiculous claims' in the same post as this :rofl
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You can't claim folks only showed up for the "no icons"
Foolish to say so.
Folks show up because it's the off-week, it's friday night, and they want some action. If nothing is done in the SEA they'll show up in the LWAs (or AVA or whatever).
Folks are going to fly no matter what you put up. Matter of fact, folks LIKE the kind of mission you had in the combat challenge. Bomber interceptions and squad v squad fighter sweeps. It has been the STAPLE of snapshot-type events for YEARS before "Combat Challenge" did it. It's why folks play this game. Saying they only showed up because of the icon setting is "rich" to say the least.
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Matter of fact, folks LIKE the kind of mission you had in the combat challenge. Bomber interceptions and squad v squad fighter sweeps.
I'm sure that they would have. However, beside the first sortie, Combat Challenge was a 2 hour furball over the English Channel with no icons.
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I'm sure that they would have. However, beside the first sortie, Combat Challenge was a 2 hour furball over the English Channel with no icons.
I showed up because...
- I have the time alloted each Saturday with the family as MINE
- I like to fly with the squad
- it was a historical (kind of) setup, I enjoy axis vs allied setups
No enemy icons had zero to do with me showing up.
Oh and for the noobs that think stereopsis is good for 10m:
TABLE 1. Maximum distance of stereopsis for different stereoacuity thresholds (PD = 64)
Threshold (arc seconds) Radians Maximum distance (m)
2 9.696 x 106 6600
10 4.848 x 105 1320
20 9.696 x 105 660
40 1.939 x 104 330
80 3.879 x 104 165
The average person has ~ 30 arc seconds of stereoacuity.
So typically people will expeirnce stereopsis good to at least 300m, maybe up to 600m.
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Krusty there were a lot more people on the Combat Challenge until the first contacts were made and people got shot down quickly...I watched 20 jump right after that...at least one said in 200 that they weren't sticking around because of the lack of enemy icons.
I applaud Vulcan for sticking around and giving it the full run...but I'm puzzled as to why he objects to no enemy icons becoming a normal thing even though he obviously had no problems with it...using that VR equipment clearly gives him an edge over the rest of us with flat screens but then, are you using the VR headset or not?
Err perhaps you should check the icon threads. You'll note that I've played AH quite a lot in stereoscopic 3D. I use a Z-800 Virtual Reality Headset with Dual OLED Displays (have done for about 4 years now). Full Depth perception needs a lot more fidelity than any computer game can provide, and whilst you can play AH in stereoscopic 3D (something I doubt you've done) the majority of users do not have this tech available to them (and there are side issues with 3D tech and peoples vision I won't go into).
So, yet again you fail - massively.
The reason I stopped using SS 3D was a video card upgrade, I went from a 7600GT to a GTX 285. The new nvidia drivers do not support 3rd party 3D products - only their own 3D Vision stuff. I've been experimenting with the IZ3D driver, but that doesn't work well with AH. Rumour is ATI are releasing DirectX S3D drivers with their 10.3 driver release, so I might have to switch camps from nvidia to ATI.
I don't need the VR headset to see depth...but I imagine it could be really cool if AH was fully modelled for VR use...then again, there would likely be a lot of people complaining about the change.
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Don't mess with a good thing...leave icons on.
Thanks
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Its time to end this. I picked the title to get attention. Its worked. Now turn the damn icons off and put the old men to bed. 11:00 eastern is past all their bed times anyway. I'm really sick of people opining who were not there and did not see it, but bash it they do. Its the mark of a fool. And we seem to be living in the age of the fool.
Move on and lets join the 21st century
Vlkyrie1
:airplane:
Hey Valkyrie, Those old men that you want to put to bed are the main reason why the FSO is such a great event. These guys created and nurtured the event and have made it the best thing in Aces High. You get rid of those guys and you are flying the event with the likes of grneaglejr. A bunch of guys who don't follow orders and just do what they please.
A lot of the rules of the FSO are designed to ensure that people see combat. We do not want to fly around chasing ghosts. The 801 FAA saw a total of 4 enemy planes last frame. 2 P40s (I think! :rofl) that did not want to fight, a B25 on the deck that I was lucky to spot and a hurricane flown with great skill by spIVeyCH who had the good graces to stay and dogfight us.
The one thing that will destroy FSO is lack of combat action and you can’t fight them if you can’t find them. I flew in the Combat Challenge and the main reason that furball developed on the channel was because people want to fight and kept going back to the same spot to see action. In a FSO frame people have tasks that they must complete so creating a furball is not going to happen.
So to sum it all up: no icon = no action = demise of FSO
Cheers,
gus
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I did the last combat challenge. It was fun. Its just not what I want for FSO.
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I don't need the VR headset to see depth...but I imagine it could be really cool if AH was fully modelled for VR use...then again, there would likely be a lot of people complaining about the change.
It is physically impossible to have depth perception with one image source. It is therefore impossible to have accurate depth perception of in-game objects with just a computer monitor. I could engineer any number of viewing scenarios in which a proper stereo image would make the difference in assessing distance to an object. Hint: how can you know whether an object is large or just very close to you?
Edit: here's a VERY simple example - you are looking up at a 109 200m away from you painted against a completely blue sky and there are no cockpit references. You zoom in. The 109 instantly becomes twice as big. Without stereo imaging and without the knowledge that you had just hit the zoom key, it would be impossible to tell if the 109 is bigger because of zooming in or is actually closer to you.
What you would have if you only looked out of one eye is an ILLUSION of depth from your years of experience estimating the sizes of objects (i.e., a car isn't 1 mile wide) and your familiarity with objects and distances and some added information from movement (i.e., you can somewhat make up for having only one eye by moving around and viewing the same object from different angles). In this way, you can say that a car is about 100 yards away because a car is about 10m long and its proportionally the correct size based on intuition. This is what you have in Aces High without a VR headset or something like NVidia's stereo goggles. To say otherwise is a blatant falsehood. If it were anything else, nobody would even attempt to make something like a VR headset.
If you've ever tried VR equipment, NVidia stereo goggles, or watched any movie in 3D, the difference is as clear as night and day. While a flat screen movie can convey the illusion of depth (i.e., you can tell whether a gun is behind or in front of a person), a stereoscopic movie conveys true depth and does so viscerally - you might actually be scared that the image on the screen is jumping out at you.
Edit: finally, there is a very good physical/mathematical reason for this. To put it very simply, what you see with one eye you can only determine the direction of, but when you add a second eye, the brain can then compute distance based on difference in directions between where the two eyes are pointing. In fact, that is exactly what happens, albeit your brain tells you this by giving a feeling as to the distance rather than a specific number.
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It is physically impossible to have depth perception with one image source. It is therefore impossible to have accurate depth perception of in-game objects with just a computer monitor.
We have all said that and it still hasn't sunk in to a particular few.
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Sheezus...some people just read what they want...obviously context and comprehension do not exist around here...I'll try this again and read verbatim.
It is physically impossible to have depth perception with one image source. It is therefore impossible to have accurate depth perception of in-game objects with just a computer monitor. I could engineer any number of viewing scenarios in which a proper stereo image would make the difference in assessing distance to an object. Hint: how can you know whether an object is large or just very close to you?
So you don't misread or misquote me again...in the 3D realm of AH depth is fairly well modelled <---note that the words accurate or actual do not exist in the previous statement...obviously there is no literal depth perception as seen in the real world and not one person in this discussion said it does exist. However if depth perception were not emulated in some way in AH, it wouldn't be 3 dimensional and few people would be able to land a plane on a runway or ship without tearing up their aircraft or running into something...but AH is a 3 dimensional environment and as such depth has to be simulated in order to achieve that...for those harping on stereoscopic vision, try looking up stereoscopy or stereoscopic imaging.
any technique capable of recording three-dimensional visual information or creating the illusion of depth in an image
Almost everyone playing AH has a brain that is functional and that brain has the capacity to memorize...it also has the ability to associate...and with those two capabilities I can train my brain to associate relative approximate distances to objects within AH without having to see icons...so can anyone else with a functional brain.
Obviously no one could jump into the scaled down 3D world of AH and be able to determine distances in the same manner they do in real life without some point of reference within the environment, hence the reason icons with distance indicators exist...however, just like real life we can train our brains to determine distances within the 3D realm of AH exactly the same way we learned how to determine distances in the real world...perhaps that may not be possible for everyone but I'm being optimistic and giving the benefit of the doubt that everyone in AH has a functional brain...since we do not live in the 3D realm of AH and cannot touch, feel or smell the environment the time it takes to learn how to determine distances based only on visual cues would be determined by the amount of time a person spent training themselves to do so, under normal circumstances. The process of training oneself to determine approximate distances without visual cues or actual depth perception in AH is not convenient nor easy while trying to fly a cartoon airplane...you have to use zoom in varying degrees, turn the icons on/off repeatedly, and memorize what you see from every angle available.
Since AH is a 3 dimensional simulated environment and there are limitations and real life depth perception does not exist...determining altitude over a flat surface where few if any vertical structures exist such as water is nearly impossible...and since objects are rendered in pixels there are obvious limitations as to how far away an object gets rendered with enough detail to determine anything more than dark dots...but we can learn to determine approximate distances within the limitations of the 3D environment by memorizing and associating.
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However if depth perception were not emulated in some way in AH
Where you go wrong is your wording of "depth perception" and your useage gets very confusing. Depth perception is not AT ALL modeled or emulated in any way in AH if the player in question is only using a standard monitor.
Depth on the other hand is. Distance is then estimated by the players through experience, range icons, and size references. It is not depth perception and it is misleading to imply that it is in any way. Again, it's only distance estimation based on references. While it can be learned and used in AH, true depth perception would be vastly more useful given the levels of object detail available plus the variability of zoom levels.
but AH is a 3 dimensional environment and as such depth has to be simulated in order to achieve that...for those harping on stereoscopic vision, try looking up stereoscopy or stereoscopic imaging.
Now you've jumped back to wording the concept we're all talking about as "depth". In this sentence you've got it right and if you had used this consistently all along, I would not have had to argue at all.
Also, I have no idea why you're telling us to look up stereoscopic imaging. All references point us back to precisely the issue I was trying to clarify in the first place. When you do have two images captured at slightly offset sources, you can truly simulate depth (i.e., VR headset, stereo glasses, those newspaper puzzles that you stare at, etc). AH does support this, but again the vast majority of us do not have such equipment to take advantage of it.
Since we've been talking about the majority of people (and Del has made clear he would only support something like no enemy icons if such equipment were widely and cheaply available), your continually telling us to go clear up our conceptions about stereo imaging just makes me think you have no clue what you're talking about. Your line of argument seems to suggest that we can somhow get stereoscopic vision on a monitor screen without 3D equipment like VR, NVidia goggles, etc.
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boomerlu let it go, gyrene has been proven incorrect throughout this thread, he's grasping at straws now. Everyone else gets it.
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boomerlu let it go, gyrene has been proven incorrect throughout this thread, he's grasping at straws now. Everyone else gets it.
Will do. Cya. :bolt:
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boomerlu let it go, gyrene has been proven incorrect throughout this thread, he's grasping at straws now. Everyone else gets it.
Yep Vulcan, you're right.
Amazing that as dumb as you want to believe I am that I can train my brain to associate relative distance and depth in a 3D virtual environment on a flat 22 inch LCD monitor and you can't.
Boomerlu, I understand what you're saying...and perhaps my use of the words depth and perception were viewed as mistated...but in AH the "perception" of "depth" is there in an illusory manner as a result of creating a 3 dimensional environment hence my reference to the term stereoscopy...in order for objects to appear to be 3 dimensional, the illusion of depth must be created...take for example the hangars, they are 3 dimensional modelled objects with height and depth until you get very close to a wall then without the aide of actual binocular vision they become 2 dimensional...same goes for other inanimate objects in AH including the ground and water. In regards to the illusion of depth and determination of approximate distances without actual binocular vision and the 3D environment to support it, that is possible but it's a learned function...as you stated.
What you would have if you only looked out of one eye is an ILLUSION of depth from your years of experience estimating the sizes of objects (i.e., a car isn't 1 mile wide) and your familiarity with objects and distances and some added information from movement (i.e., you can somewhat make up for having only one eye by moving around and viewing the same object from different angles). In this way, you can say that a car is about 100 yards away because a car is about 10m long and its proportionally the correct size based on intuition. This is what you have in Aces High without a VR headset or something like NVidia's stereo goggles.
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Interesting thread.
Although AH is a 3 dimensional world it is displayed on a TWO dimensional screen. The "illusion" of 3d objects comes from "perspective"
Each frame rendered to create the movement is rendered on a flat surface....the exact same thing as taking a photograph. When you transfer a 3 dimensional object to a 2 dimensional surface you have to introduce "perspective" to it or else it looks flat.
Therefor we have to talk about the "vanishing point". Without one there is no perspective.
A great example of this in AH is the complaint on many threads about planes "magically reversing tail to nose" and coming down and shooting them. The reason this happens is because when pointed up at the sky there IS NO VANISHING POINT....therefore this is no perspctive and you cant tell what direction the plane is actually traveling.
This is a 2 dimensional game we play. Any other argument is flawed.
The only reason it works is because we have perspective.
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Boomerlu, I understand what you're saying...and perhaps my use of the words depth and perception were viewed as mistated...but in AH the "perception" of "depth" is there in an illusory manner as a result of creating a 3 dimensional environment hence my reference to the term stereoscopy...
This is actually the part of what you've mentioned that is most misleading; you've got the meaning of stereoscopy all wrong.
Stereoscopy actually refers to something like VR goggles or NVidia stereo goggles (an imaging technique to trick your brain into "seeing" true 3D), NOT perspective as Agent mentions in his next post. Stereoscopy cannot be accomplished without two image sources and a way to feed each one into its respective eye.
What we have in AH is not stereoscopy, it's a simulation of a 3D world represented on a 2D monitor, which should give a number of depth cues beyond stereopsis. In fact... this article lists them...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscopy
The key quote is...
"All the above cues, with the exception of the first two, are present in traditional two-dimensional images such as paintings, photographs, and television. Stereoscopy is the enhancement of the illusion of depth in a photograph, movie, or other two-dimensional image by presenting a slightly different image to each eye, and thereby adding the first of these cues (stereopsis) as well."
Notably, the bolded part refers to exactly what VR/NVidia goggles do.
Edit: after going through all the relevant info, both sides had misleading wording. To be proper, AH has cues which support depth perception. Notably it does not employ stereoscopy or support stereopsis in any way.
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Edit: after going through all the relevant info, both sides had misleading wording. To be proper, AH has cues which support depth perception. Notably it does not employ stereoscopy or support stereopsis in any way.
Exactly, which though I misused the terminology in context, is what I have said all along...and I'll make sure to note the proper useage of the terms. Thank you Boomerlu.
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My opinion on the whole no enemy icons thing is that it could work in an FSO type setting, putting more emphasis on teamwork to locate/identify/destroy targets. I would definitely favor that as I have full faith in my squad.
However, such a thing would definitely give a big advantage to those with bigger screens and/or VR/stereo equipment. This is IMO the biggest minus to the idea in an FSO setting (don't even mention MA, where you can't IFF based on plane type), but I think the extra immersion would outweigh this detraction.
And while it's true that you could make the same argument that some guys don't have TrackIR (I don't), rudder pedals (I don't), HOTAS setups (I don't), or even joysticks, I feel it's more fundamental and also more expensive to get better graphics compared to better controls. A decent twisty stick costs what? Fifty bucks or so? Personally I put my mouse in my left hand and use the scroll wheel as a throttle and the X-Y mouse axes for mouse-look. It's close enough to HOTAS + TrackIR enough for me at this stage (although I'd still prefer to have a rudder set) and pretty cheap to boot! Total cost... $50 ish for a stick, $20 for a scroll mouse (which you probably already have).
Compare that to a VR set or a big screen monitor... that could run anywhere from $200 up to several thousand. These two things (monitor/VR vs joystick) are not in the same league.
Edit: and keep friendly icons. In real life, pilots would have unique paint jobs to be able to identify within the squad... and since you are around the same guys all the time, you'd learn to pick out the who's who. As is, we tend to keep one squad dressed out in the same skin.
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<<snip>>
Stereoscopy actually refers to something like VR goggles or NVidia stereo goggles (an imaging technique to trick your brain into "seeing" true 3D), NOT perspective as Agent mentions in his next post. Stereoscopy cannot be accomplished without two image sources and a way to feed each one into its respective eye.
<<snip>>
I was not speaking about "Stereoscopy".
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I was not speaking about "Stereoscopy".
I wasn't implying that you were. I was using what you said as a contrast to what I was saying.
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Oh and for the noobs that think stereopsis is good for 10m:
TABLE 1. Maximum distance of stereopsis for different stereoacuity thresholds (PD = 64)
Threshold (arc seconds) Radians Maximum distance (m)
2 9.696 x 106 6600
10 4.848 x 105 1320
20 9.696 x 105 660
40 1.939 x 104 330
80 3.879 x 104 165
The average person has ~ 30 arc seconds of stereoacuity.
So typically people will expeirnce stereopsis good to at least 300m, maybe up to 600m.
Vulcan - could you state source please... What does 'PD=64' mean?
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Vulcan - could you state source please... What does 'PD=64' mean?
Ahh was an vision lecture I found ages ago, I believe PD means IPD in millimeters (and if you don't know what IPD is.... :) ). Ahh here you go: http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/vs3_materials/Lecture14.pdf
I know a lot about the subject because I suffer from non-binocular vision (or did). As a kid I had an ailment in my right eye (rolled up due to a severed nerve) that mean't my vision developed initially with a single eye, thus non-binocular. I only found out when I went for Air Force entrance exams. And I can tell you that you will struggle to get a civilians pilots license without binocular vision.
The interesting thing is that in the VR headsets I do get depth, I first noticed this on my VFX-1 (take note gyrene, I've been using SS 3D VR headsets in PC gaming for around 15 years ) . I believe it has something to do with the isolated view of each screen. The VR use has had a secondary function for in correcting this aspect of my vision. I am still left eye dominant, and if you search the BBS you'll find me asking up 3D gunsight issues (as in real life the gunsight in AH doesn't work for me in SS 3D, as the left eye dominates and it is offset).
So I know a lot of this stuff from experience, not googling (as is the limits of gyrenes knowledge).
In the absence of stereopsis the brain needs to use other 3D depth cues with the best definition available (to make up). Given the limits of the game, and current 3D graphics technology this is simply not possible. At no time does a person playing AH on non-SS3D hardware perceive the game as true 3D.
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Aye - good lecture there! Got the PD... :neener:
As far as the usable distance for stereopsis I stand corrected for the moment. So, 700m under laboratory conditions - closer to 200m under RL conditions. I still put forward my toyplane argument though...
Will investigate further! :D
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I remember the VFX1 headset - I soooo wanted it - but the resolution was crappy (even at that time) and it cost more than my whole PC setup... ;) . I played Descent on it in a shop once.
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Ahh was an vision lecture I found ages ago, I believe PD means IPD in millimeters (and if you don't know what IPD is.... :) ). Ahh here you go: http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/vs3_materials/Lecture14.pdf
I know a lot about the subject because I suffer from non-binocular vision (or did). As a kid I had an ailment in my right eye (rolled up due to a severed nerve) that mean't my vision developed initially with a single eye, thus non-binocular. I only found out when I went for Air Force entrance exams. And I can tell you that you will struggle to get a civilians pilots license without binocular vision.
The interesting thing is that in the VR headsets I do get depth, I first noticed this on my VFX-1 (take note gyrene, I've been using SS 3D VR headsets in PC gaming for around 15 years ) . I believe it has something to do with the isolated view of each screen. The VR use has had a secondary function for in correcting this aspect of my vision. I am still left eye dominant, and if you search the BBS you'll find me asking up 3D gunsight issues (as in real life the gunsight in AH doesn't work for me in SS 3D, as the left eye dominates and it is offset).
So I know a lot of this stuff from experience, not googling (as is the limits of gyrenes knowledge).
In the absence of stereopsis the brain needs to use other 3D depth cues with the best definition available (to make up). Given the limits of the game, and current 3D graphics technology this is simply not possible. At no time does a person playing AH on non-SS3D hardware perceive the game as true 3D.
Nice jabs there Vulcan...good try...the extents of my knowledge would surprise you...try addressing the full content and context of what I've said in response to your rantings.
I understand now why you think depth doesn't exist in AH without the use of VR equipment...it's the way your vision developed and what your brain is used to...after using VR equipment for so long and getting your brain used to the view, a military grade simulator wouldn't look 3 dimensional to you.
Now, in spite of your opinion, some people have little trouble seeing a 3D environment in AH...it's what they are used to looking at on their flat screens...it's all about perspective...so full "stereoscopic depth perception" does not exist as it does in the real world, but a reasonable facsimile exists in the form of basic visual cues in most of the environment...so there are limitations as to how far in the distance a person can see objects based on graphics settings within AH and hardware/software limitations...but, within the parameters allowed by the hardware/software it is possible to train ones brain to determine approximate distances since most people have the ability to memorize repetitive visual input without VR equipment or "stereoscopic vision"...it's not easy, but it can be done, as a good number of people have found out in the AvA arena over the past couple of days.
I'm sorry you can't see things outside of your small world...some of us don't have that limitation.
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i think they should leave icons on, for those of us who like icons. icons can be shut off manually, so if you dont want em, shut em off. make it an individual choice. i like minimal range icons, but not NO icons.
i retract this statement. Icons are OFF in the AVA and its a blast! you just die alot :D
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i retract this statement. Icons are OFF in the AVA and its a blast! you just die alot :D
No Icons = more realism.
It may have come up already but I've always felt the Icon disadvantages the BnZ style by which most kills occur in RL. It also disadvantages escapes, in general, since you're now flying around with a big "hit me" sign.
Get rid of this pestilence known as the icon!
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It's simple turn off Icons and see who shows up :O I know I won't along with a few others, but we may be in the minority :confused:. I came to FSO because I liked it, when i don't like it I will leave, simple really :old: I really loved the comment about old guys tho, guess some of you don't plan on living much longer :rofl
BigJim
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I play on a 9 inch color handheld tv monitor...please leave icons on.
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You kids are all trying way too hard to force things on people.
If "you" want immersion, turn your own icons off, just don't tell me I have to like it.
I'm sure it's fun to experiment with, and try out, but some people just are not technologically or physically able to run with it.
Just consider that you already have the opportunity to enjoy the game at the level you want, but are arguing to limit it for others.
Just sayin.
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Well said ROC!
Now, back to the sheep...
CptA
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i wouldnt suggest it in the FSO, too many varied players for that, but in the AVA its working out great. if you want NO ENEMY ICONS go to the AVA and try it out.
as for the FSO, leave it be. just my 2 cents
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i wouldnt suggest it in the FSO, too many varied players for that, but in the AVA its working out great. if you want NO ENEMY ICONS go to the AVA and try it out.
as for the FSO, leave it be. just my 2 cents
Are Friendly icons on? If they're not is Killshooter off? :D
Cheers,
gus
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friendly icons are limited to 2.1K. we might shut them off for fun now and again. i did it one night just for fun, it was wild. you had to know which plane was which, but there was no way to know who was who. it was very interesting to say the least
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friendly icons are limited to 2.1K. we might shut them off for fun now and again. i did it one night just for fun, it was wild. you had to know which plane was which, but there was no way to know who was who. it was very interesting to say the least
It looks like people were enjoying the no icons as there were 8 people in the AvA at 11pm EST last night. Usually by that time it's a ghost town. I'll try to get in there soon.
Cheers,
gus
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It looks like people were enjoying the no icons as there were 8 people in the AvA at 11pm EST last night. Usually by that time it's a ghost town. I'll try to get in there soon.
Cheers,
gus
Me too... I've never played AvA but I like the idea and, if there are people there now, I'm going (after work, of course).