Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: pembquist on March 26, 2011, 09:36:58 PM
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Any tips on this matchup? Also are the offline drones still fixed with regard to altitude?
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Spitfires mk VIII maintains energy a lot better, Spitfire climbs a lot better, Spitfire accelerates better, Spitfire has better guns, Spitfire can maintain higher speed after a dive a lot longer, Spitfire accelerates in a dive a lot better and to a higher speed, and the Spitfire looks better.
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KI-61 or 84, big difference :headscratch:
:salute
BigRat
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I made my reply bases on spit 8 vs Ki-84 comparison. Don't know much about Ki-61 (I think what I said above is correct about Ki-61 as well).
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Spitfires mk VIII maintains energy a lot better, Spitfire climbs a lot better, Spitfire accelerates better, Spitfire has better guns, Spitfire can maintain higher speed after a dive a lot longer, Spitfire accelerates in a dive a lot better and to a higher speed, and the Spitfire looks better.
We had this matchup in AvA a couple of years ago, for a week. Didn't seem to matter who flew them, the Spits got clobbered regularly by the Franks.
- oldman
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We had this matchup in AvA a couple of years ago, for a week. Didn't seem to matter who flew them, the Spits got clobbered regularly by the Franks.
- oldman
I was not there so it's hard to comment. I know I never have problems with the Ki-84 and I know the numbers say that the Spit 8 is a better plane.
I think what happened was there was no one who really knew the plane and ki-84 is a better turnfighter (especially on the deck), therefore the Ki-84 pilots had a large advantage.
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We had this matchup in AvA a couple of years ago, for a week. Didn't seem to matter who flew them, the Spits got clobbered regularly by the Franks.
- oldman
I can't remember ever getting beat by a Ki-84 in any Mark of Spitfire in a turn fight or any other type of fight as long as it was a fair fight. Everything kills me in furballs or alone in a horde.
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Any tips on this matchup? Also are the offline drones still fixed with regard to altitude?
The drones fly over the base you are closest to regardless of where you took off. If you are by a 10k base I expect the drones are about 12k.
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Should have read Spit 8 vs Ki 84. Looking at Soda's Aircraft Evaluations it looks like the Spit 8 has better climb but about equal or worse on the other flight characteristics. Being usually the weaker pilot I'm groping for a strategy. As it is I try to avoid turning with them, and try to keep the speed of the encounter up over all. Maybe this is a case where the planes are close in performance and there aren't really any areas to exploit. Any advice?
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Planes on paper are one thing, how they fly in comparison to each other can be completely different. My best comparison to how to fly an 84 is very similiar to a K4. It's very good in the verticle and an OK turner at most speeds. K4 a bit better verticle and 84 better turner, but I use similiar tactics between the two. The best way to learn how to combat a plane is to learn to fly it yourself, this way you will know what it can and can't do when you run into it.
:salute
BigRat
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Planes on paper are one thing, how they fly in comparison to each other can be completely different. My best comparison to how to fly an 84 is very similiar to a K4. It's very good in the verticle and an OK turner at most speeds. K4 a bit better verticle and 84 better turner, but I use similiar tactics between the two. The best way to learn how to combat a plane is to learn to fly it yourself, this way you will know what it can and can't do when you run into it.
:salute
BigRat
Strange that is basically the same strategy I use with the KI84, thing is a monster in the vert, I really enjoy the plane and would take one over any spit :aok
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ki's flaps deploy at 140 ias . . . killer air craft in the right hands a match for anyone. Spit 8 also a great plane. 2 of my favs. Fun to go up against hogs in either.
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Here's what the numbers say:
Ki84 has an edge in speed on the deck
Spit 8 has a pretty sizable climb advantage (500 ft/s)
Spit 8 turns better both rate and radius.
However Ki84 flaps deploy at higher speeds.
If you are flying the Spit 8, I would say keep the fight more vertical - sucker the Ki into deploying flaps for a shot and then zoom out away. This should be easy to see as you are the better turning fighter. If the Ki gains in the turn fight at all, you know he dropped flaps.
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However Ki84 flaps deploy at higher speeds.
What speed is that?
According to Hap they deploy at 140mph, Spitfire's flaps deploy at 160mph.
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Ahh I apologize it's 160 each. Just tested it out. However the Ki has incremental flaps where the Spit has only one setting. Again, according to the numbers the Spit should be out turning the Ki unless the Ki drops flaps where the Spit does not.
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Ill take a ki over the spit anyday....all those who said they never lost against a ki hasn't gone against a good kind pilot.....think of it as a crossbreed between 109 and spit
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What is the never accede speed in Ki-84? I know it's a lot lower than Spitfire's but just want to see the exact deferents.
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What is the never accede speed in Ki-84? I know it's a lot lower than Spitfire's but just want to see the exact deferents.
I had it up to 450 last night....controls were tight, but I was able to catch a 51 and kill him :D
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I had it up to 450 last night....controls were tight, but I was able to catch a 51 and kill him :D
I remember when I used to fly the Ki-84 a few years back my ailerons would rip off at high speed, do you remember what speed that is?
The pony pilot must have been a noob...
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As long as the ki can keep its flaps open, it can turn wth anything so the spit is losing quickly. Without flaps the ki becames a dog and outmatched by almost anything.
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Ill take a ki over the spit anyday....all those who said they never lost against a ki hasn't gone against a good kind pilot.....think of it as a crossbreed between 109 and spit
Since I'm the only one who said that are you saying I've never flown against a good Ki pilot? I've beat some of the better Ki pilots in the game. And I do know the entire planeset. You really don't have to tell me how a Ki flys but I guess we all know how much you think of yourself.
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Since I'm the only one who said that are you saying I've never flown against a good Ki pilot? I've beat some of the better Ki pilots in the game. And I do know the entire planeset. You really don't have to tell me how a Ki flys but I guess we all know how much you think of yourself.
...well...um...look who's talking....
- oldman
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...well...um...look who's talking....
- oldman
Ive never seen BE show any type of "Im UBER cartoon pilot" EVER
not that Im saying Junky does, but he is more in your face then BE is any day
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Ive never seen BE show any type of "Im UBER cartoon pilot" EVER
not that Im saying Junky does, but he is more in your face then BE is any day
I don't know either one of them, I'm just reading the thread.
- oldman
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Ahh I apologize it's 160 each. Just tested it out. However the Ki has incremental flaps where the Spit has only one setting. Again, according to the numbers the Spit should be out turning the Ki unless the Ki drops flaps where the Spit does not.
The flaps are completely different on the two aircraft. The Ki-84 has fowler flaps that increase wing area. The Spitfire has split flaps for landing that do little to help turn radius and actively hurt turn rate.
The first notch of the Ki-84's flaps come down at about 166mph.
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Ki-84's flaps are indeed better than Spitfire's.
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I was not there so it's hard to comment. I know I never have problems with the Ki-84 and I know the numbers say that the Spit 8 is a better plane.
I think what happened was there was no one who really knew the plane and ki-84 is a better turnfighter (especially on the deck), therefore the Ki-84 pilots had a large advantage.
Ki-84 is much snappier on the roll than the Spitfire VIII , is tougher than the Spitfire VIII and is a bit faster than the Spitfire VIII down low. I also wouldn't undersell the Ki-84's guns. They are very good, perhaps even excellent when it comes to Spitfire killing.
In that AvA setup, the Ki-84 did a very credible job of dominating the Spitfire VIII. It was very lopsided, not just a little bit.
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I honestly have very hard time believing that a Ki-84 can take more fire than a Spit8.
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I honestly have very hard time believing that a Ki-84 can take more fire than a Spit8.
As somebody who used them as my two "go to pure fighters", other than pilot wounds, the Ki-84 is very noticeably tougher than the Spitfire. In particular, the wings on a Spitfire are, quite probably, the most fragile major part of any aircraft in AH. The rapid fire guns on the Ki-84 would be close to ideal at removing them.
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As somebody who used them as my two "go to pure fighters", other than pilot wounds, the Ki-84 is very noticeably tougher than the Spitfire. In particular, the wings on a Spitfire are, quite probably, the most fragile major part of any aircraft in AH. The rapid fire guns on the Ki-84 would be close to ideal at removing them.
The wings look "fragile" because they are thin and large, in reality they are pretty though. It is easy to shoot the wing off a Spitfire because they are large and easy targets.
Perhaps we can go to the DA and test this? One of us flies straight and the other shoots, they count the hits in the recording.
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The rapid fire guns on the Ki-84 would be close to ideal at removing them.
Ki-84
Ho-5 cannon: 450-600 RPM
Ho-103 machine gun: 400 RPM (has to fire through the prop)
Spitfire
Hispano: 700 RPM
Browning: 400-600RPM
Note: I took this off wikipedia, not 100% sure that this is accurate.
Try it in the game, take a spitfire and a ki-84, fire the guns, you can see that Spitfire's guns have a greater rate of fire.
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I have no idea where you got those rates of fire, but they are wildly off.
The Hispano II has a 600rpm rate of fire
The Browning .50 has about a 750rpm rate of fire.
The Ho-5 numbers you posted look like Type 99 Model II numbers, as on the N1K2-J and A6M5b. The Ho-5s on the Ki-84 (and Ki-67) are the fastest firing 20mm cannons of WWII, having a rate of fire something like 750-850rpm. Try it in AH, it fires MUCH faster than the Hispano, To make it easy, take a Mosquito Mk VI with normal ammo load (150 rounds per gun) and see how long it takes to empty them compared to the Ki-84 and its 150 rounds per gun.
I don't know the Ho-103's rate of fire off hand, but in AH it will be 10% lower than uninterrupted. Apparently, in reality Browning and guns developed from the Browning, such as the Ho-103, suffered more like a 40% loss of rate of fire from interrupter gears.
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I have no idea where you got those rates of fire, but they are wildly off.
Note: I took this off wikipedia, not 100% sure that this is accurate.
Your right.
Made a test in AH, timed how long would it take to empty the cannons on the Spitfire and Ki-84.
| Spifire | 240 rounds | 11.3 seconds | 636RPM |
| Ki-84 | 300 rounds | 11.3 seconds | 796RPM |
Surprisingly both took exactly the same amount of time.
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The bottom line is that the Ki-84 and the Spitfire Mk VIII are both topline fighters that the significant majority of other fighters in the game will be engaging from a position of qualitative inferiority.
There are some fighters that are superior, but very few of those are not perked.
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Surprised it took so long for it to come up... What Karnak said: the Ki 84's flaps are far better than the Spit's. No contest. And the Spitfire's wings are definitely one of the most fragile in the game. One of the things I like to do is to shoot them anytime a Spitfire is maneuvering hard at speed. Unless I'm mistaken, the G load makes them even quicker to break.
I can't comment on the actual OP question.. I'd say the Ki 84's worse handling at high speed and the small speed margin where the flaps are about to come out are where the Spit VIII can make the most of the fight. Before the flaps are out, the Ki 84 will IIRC handle markedly worse.
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Those two rides are pretty much equal in overall. The winner is that pilot who can force his planes optimal fighting style to the opponent. As long as the fight is at altitude, i would say the spit has more chance, more opportunity to fight his fight (downhill, awsome turn rate around 180-220), on the deck the ki has a little bit more chance (rolling scissors, world beating slow stall speed and low speed handling). But it depends more on the pilot than on the plane. Im speaking about a co-alt duel situation, when all two is trying to outturn the opponent. If one of them are arriving with altitude, the spit has more chance to finish the ki since the ki has problems above flap speeds, just at the speed zone the spit excels. Its easyer to bait and reverse in the spit than in the ki.
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The Spit 8 is my primary fighter. I think Moot touched on the key to this matchup. Speed has some bearing on outcome of fight. If I run into a Ki-84 I try to keep the speed up at least 250-ish. The more the fight slows down, the stronger the Ki gets. Just been my experience. Fight results are: when fast-Spit 8, when slow-Ki-84. Of course there is the pilot factoring in there as well. :aok
:salute
Way
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I disagree that the spit wings are that fragile. I've unloaded tons of 20mm rounds into them many times from Fw190s and other planes and had them keep going.
I think compared to tke Ki they SEEM more fragile, but this is because you're putting 2x or 3x the rounds on target in a single burst. Those fast guns on the Ki really make instant killshots on any ride (not just spits) if it passes through your pipper.
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I disagree that the spit wings are that fragile. I've unloaded tons of 20mm rounds into them many times from Fw190s and other planes and had them keep going.
I think compared to tke Ki they SEEM more fragile, but this is because you're putting 2x or 3x the rounds on target in a single burst. Those fast guns on the Ki really make instant killshots on any ride (not just spits) if it passes through your pipper.
It isn't the Ki-84 that kills Spit wings best, it is .50 cals. Even a quad .50 cal aircraft easily amputates Spitfire wings.
I think you missed or hit with only the 7.92mm or 13mm guns when you claim to have hit Spitfires in the wings with "tons of 20mm rounds" and had them survive.
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Spits don't regain their e as fast as ki84s... get em slow and work it.... you can get the spit 8.
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Spits don't regain their e as fast as ki84s... get em slow and work it.... you can get the spit 8.
I have to disagree with that, Spitfires are some of the fastest accelerating planes in AH.
The following test on acceleration was done at 65ft, from 150mph to 250mph with WEP and 50% fuel.
Ki-84: 21.2 Seconds
Spit8: 18.8 Seconds
Take a look at the following link, I know it is an old site but the performance for these two aircraft has not been changed.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php) (Click Spit8 and Ki-84 then submit)
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I have to disagree with that, Spitfires are some of the fastest accelerating planes in AH.
The following test on acceleration was done at 65ft, from 150mph to 250mph with WEP and 50% fuel.
Ki-84: 21.2 Seconds
Spit8: 18.8 Seconds
Take a look at the following link, I know it is an old site but the performance for these two aircraft has not been changed.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php) (Click Spit8 and Ki-84 then submit)
hmm your right... Maybe its that most spit pilots only pull back as hard as they can instead of as hard as necessary. It just seems that in many encounters that last longer than several turns, they are low and slow and low on e.
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I think it's because most Ki84 pilots know what they are doing, most of the Spitfire pilots have no idea what they are doing.
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instead of as hard as necessary
Shhhh don't expose my Vampire secrets Ardy!
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Shhhh don't expose my Vampire secrets Ardy!
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Ive been flying the KI a lot lately, It generally eats up spits....but I think that's because the average guy in one is most often a noob, and has zero understanding of ACM, now when Ive went against guys that are not noobs the fight is much better, it really comes down to who is flying the plane like some here have said, and whether they capitalize on the small shots they may have from me, setting up for a saddle.
lookin at my "stat's" spit8 has one more kill on me, it's 3-2 funny spit 5 has 5 kills on me, I haven't killed one yet this tour, incidentally I have twice as many kills against a 16, 22-11.
as far as the KI getting to fast, that's the only thing it lacks, it has a phenomenal roll rate, climb rate, guns are awesome,awesome slow speed handling, can take a few hits, its a beast, I have 107 kills in it and died 60 times this tour, considering how I fly that's not to bad.
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I think both of these rides require the user to wear pink hotpants. My muscularly thick thighs prevent me from sporting such provocative clothing!
If you look closely on the side rail of the seat of both of these rides you will find a "sponsored by Victoria Secret" sticker :rofl :rofl
JUGgler
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Juggler, while I would probably agree to SOME extent on the spit8, I don't on the Ki84. I've been enjoying this plane since day1 when it didn't have WEP and also had a lower top-end boost. The plane is good, but it's not really a spitfire. Your best shot against really turny planes is literally to slow down as fast as you can in such a way as not to get shot down, then get the other guy to slow down with you.
Then pop flaps, laugh manically, and try to use this advantage before the other guy figures the ploy and noses down to run (forcing your flaps to auto retract if you follow).
It's not uber, IMO. It is good all-round, and the best of what the Japanese planeset has to offer in this game.
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It isn't the Ki-84 that kills Spit wings best, it is .50 cals. Even a quad .50 cal aircraft easily amputates Spitfire wings.
I think you missed or hit with only the 7.92mm or 13mm guns when you claim to have hit Spitfires in the wings with "tons of 20mm rounds" and had them survive.
I don't think that's it... I've hit them with .50s as well, very long solid bursts before they fall off. Planes such as F4Fs and FM2s that can really hang in a fight. Bursts from P-38s (sans 20mm) and from P-40s...
They seem plenty durable on my end. I find killing 109s to be far easier than spits, damage wise.
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Juggler, while I would probably agree to SOME extent on the spit8, I don't on the Ki84. I've been enjoying this plane since day1 when it didn't have WEP and also had a lower top-end boost. The plane is good, but it's not really a spitfire. Your best shot against really turny planes is literally to slow down as fast as you can in such a way as not to get shot down, then get the other guy to slow down with you.
Then pop flaps, laugh manically, and try to use this advantage before the other guy figures the ploy and noses down to run (forcing your flaps to auto retract if you follow).
It's not uber, IMO. It is good all-round, and the best of what the Japanese planeset has to offer in this game.
KI84 is quite uber in every way other than top speed and dive, and it's not to shabby in these two categories either. It is much tougher than any other jap fighter, will outturn almost anything at 325 or less, accelerates like a rocket, rolls almost as good as any 190 and all that before you get the flaps out. Once flaps are out it becomes a brewster with the vert performance of a K4 :aok
BTW I just like poking fun at the "turny vert monsters" of the game!
:salute
JUGgler
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I don't think that's it... I've hit them with .50s as well, very long solid bursts before they fall off. Planes such as F4Fs and FM2s that can really hang in a fight. Bursts from P-38s (sans 20mm) and from P-40s...
They seem plenty durable on my end. I find killing 109s to be far easier than spits, damage wise.
I agree.
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I think both of these rides require the user to wear pink hotpants. My muscularly thick thighs prevent me from sporting such provocative clothing!
If you look closely on the side rail of the seat of both of these rides you will find a "sponsored by Victoria Secret" sticker :rofl :rofl
JUGgler
You sound extremely biased ;)
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You sound extremely biased ;)
You think? :aok
JUGgler
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KI84 is quite uber in every way other than top speed and dive, and it's not to shabby in these two categories either. It is much tougher than any other jap fighter, will outturn almost anything at 325 or less, accelerates like a rocket, rolls almost as good as any 190 and all that before you get the flaps out. Once flaps are out it becomes a brewster with the vert performance of a K4 :aok
BTW I just like poking fun at the "turny vert monsters" of the game!
:salute
JUGgler
:P
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You think? :aok
JUGgler
:rofl
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seem plenty durable
"Seem" key word.
Plenty durable or not, spitfire wings are in the bottom of the planeset durability list.
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"Seem" key word.
Plenty durable or not, spitfire wings are in the bottom of the planeset durability list.
Sure it does not have the toughest wings, but there are a good number of planes who's wings are easier to damage, look a zero for example.
Also if not for those wings Spitfire would be no where near as good as it really is.
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The why doesn't matter as far as the OP goes, IE how you counter an 84 with an VIII.
I'm not arguing that the Spitfire's wings are the least rugged, only that they're definitely in the bottom half. IE "weaker" than "stronger". Krusty's arguing that they aren't which I think is bogus.. The evidence Ive seen is just overwhelming.
Next the important thing here that's not tangential is what you can or can't do with these things in a Spit VIII : Ki 84 fight, not whether 109s are easier to damage. The really interesting question would be whether the Ki 84 has any comparable weak spots. Comparable IE easily hit as Spitfire's wings, and/or easily ending the fight once they're damaged.
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There are a similar aircraft it's hard to say how to counter an 84 with 8, from the top of my head I'll tell you have the Spitfire accelerates better and climbs a lot better than the Ki.
I thought Krusty means that they are not week, I don't believe he actually meant they are the strongest just stronger than some other planes.
Your saying one's the Spitfire's wings are damaged the fight ends? What do you mean by damaged? As far as I know if Ki-84's wings are shot off the fight ends as well.
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I'm saying the Spitfire's wings are one of the few in the game that reliably comes off with relatively short bursts to it.
As far as I know if Ki-84's wings are shot off the fight ends as well.
And that the Ki 84's wings would have to be that fragile (not sure about that) for it to matter RE: the OP.
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There are a similar aircraft it's hard to say how to counter an 84 with 8, from the top of my head I'll tell you have the Spitfire accelerates better and climbs a lot better than the Ki.
I thought Krusty means that they are not week, I don't believe he actually meant they are the strongest just stronger than some other planes.
Your saying one's the Spitfire's wings are damaged the fight ends? What do you mean by damaged? As far as I know if Ki-84's wings are shot off the fight ends as well.
I dont know the numbers but I question your assessment off the spit climbing "a lot" better, I would guess the KI is very close.
dont know if these pages are up to date
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
spit definitely out climbs it, with wep By a Lot
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/KIvsSpit.jpg)
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I dont know the numbers but I question your assessment off the spit climbing "a lot" better, I would guess the KI is very close.
dont know if these pages are up to date
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
spit definitely out climbs it, with wep By a Lot
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/KIvsSpit.jpg)
I posted that link a few pages back ;)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=85&pw=2>ype=2)
Seems like the Spitfire does climb better, on average by a good 1000ft/min :)
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:P
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:lol
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I don't think that's it... I've hit them with .50s as well, very long solid bursts before they fall off. Planes such as F4Fs and FM2s that can really hang in a fight. Bursts from P-38s (sans 20mm) and from P-40s...
Are you sure you're hitting what you're shooting at? The main area I aim for on a Spitfire is the wing/wing root area because it is so easy to remove a Spitifire's wing with a single burst of .50s from a P-38, let alone when I decided to toss a couple of 20mm rounds into the mix.
ack-ack
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Are you sure you're hitting what you're shooting at? The main area I aim for on a Spitfire is the wing/wing root area because it is so easy to remove a Spitifire's wing with a single burst of .50s from a P-38, let alone when I decided to toss a couple of 20mm rounds into the mix.
ack-ack
You guys are sickening......"i aim for the wingroot blah de blah......I aim for the plane and am over joyed when I hit it .. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
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You guys are sickening......"i aim for the wingroot blah de blah......I aim for the plane and am over joyed when I hit it .. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
I'm with you Tongs! I'm just pleased with myself if I see a hit sprite somewhere!
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Are you sure you're hitting what you're shooting at? The main area I aim for on a Spitfire is the wing/wing root area because it is so easy to remove a Spitifire's wing with a single burst of .50s from a P-38, let alone when I decided to toss a couple of 20mm rounds into the mix.
ack-ack
I'm saying I fire, I see sustained hit sprites on the spit wings (mostly 8s and 16s) from all sorts of planes that I fly, all sorts of guns, from 190a8s to f4f4s, and I don't see those spits shedding wings nearly as much as claimed. I often do shoot the wings off, but not on the first burst, and not without earning it most times. So effectively, from a shoot'em'down situation they're no weaker than the average plane (excluding certain titanium US models).
EDIT: Also excluding big-bore guns such as 30mm or 37mm, those would remove wings on any plane.
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Having flown Spits for years I don't think the wings are any more susceptable to enemy fire than any other plane. They are susceptable to snapping off in a high speed dive, particularily when pulling out, but even then with a modicum of control you can achieve incredibly high dive speeds and therein lies one of the Spit's major advantages over the Ki-84 which will lose it's ailerons at those speeds.
Low and slow the Ki holds a very minor turn rate advantage but a bit of vertical fighting can offset this disadvantage. The Ki is so susceptable to losing ailerons that a simple loop can gain the Spit an advantage because the Ki will have to hold flaps down on the downswing and possibly even drop throttle. The upshot is that the Ki pilot is a lot busier controlling his aircraft than the Spit pilot and therefore more likely to make a mistake. While he's thinking about controlling his plane the Spit pilot can be thinking about how to control the fight.
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(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7328/holes.jpg)
Note: A few more holes on the other side and bottom
Was shot by:
P-47
Brewster
Niki
Wirble
Base Ack
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Seconding what the previous esteemed poster said. The Ki pilot has control issues he needs to work out, whereas the spit jockey has a much easier time of it. This one is almost too close to call, and I almost don't know which side of the encounter I'd rather be on. I like both planes and have used them with relative (for me) success, but the spit takes much less thinking.
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Low and slow the Ki holds a very minor turn rate advantage but a bit of vertical fighting can offset this disadvantage. The Ki is so susceptable to losing ailerons that a simple loop can gain the Spit an advantage because the Ki will have to hold flaps down on the downswing and possibly even drop throttle. The upshot is that the Ki pilot is a lot busier controlling his aircraft than the Spit pilot and therefore more likely to make a mistake. While he's thinking about controlling his plane the Spit pilot can be thinking about how to control the fight.
I don't think I've ever lost the ailerons on a Ki-84 that was going slower than 480mph.
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(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7328/holes.jpg)
Note: A few more holes on the other side and bottom
Was shot by:
P-47
Brewster
Niki
Wirble
Base Ack
You have a magical spitfire then ;)
They usually lose a wing if i can hit it 3-4 times with the 20mm on the same part.
Muzzy, exactly. Spit8 is one of the easyest planes to fly well.
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MachFly that's 1 data point.
A note on spitfires' wings: Does anyone argue that they break easily under G load? Assuming this is inarguable, you might put 2 and 2 together: if AH models extra projectile damage on wings taking much maneuvering load, it might explain the discrepancy in people's experience RE: spitfire wing durability.
I stick to the impression I've got over about 10 years now: spitfire wings break off much easier than most.
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MachFly that's 1 data point.
A note on spitfires' wings: Does anyone argue that they break easily under G load? Assuming this is inarguable, you might put 2 and 2 together: if AH models extra projectile damage on wings taking much maneuvering load, it might explain the discrepancy in people's experience RE: spitfire wing durability.
I stick to the impression I've got over about 10 years now: spitfire wings break off much easier than most.
I'm not saying that your wrong, but I normally don't have a problem with it. Just make sure you don't use full motion of controls in the 450 range.
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You have a magical spitfire then ;)
They usually lose a wing if i can hit it 3-4 times with the 20mm on the same part.
Yes sir I do, love my Spit14.
(It has the same wings as the 8)
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I don't fly spits.. I can definitely without a doubt say, the spits wings are definitely easier than most to break off with guns. Just no doubt whatsoever, not in a decade of playing.
And above I'm not saying spits wings break because of mishandling, but that there's a compounding effect:
1) spit wings are relatively (to rest of planeset) easily broken by G load
2) spit wings are "arguably" easier to catastrophically damage by gun
3) AH considers G load in computing gun damage
4) all of the above = possible reason for variety in people's impression of spits' durability. IE maybe I've been shooting spit wings while they're maneuvering harder than not (fits with my experience base/bias: making spits dodge hard in a 152) and that explains why I'm seeing em break more than you and others.
But personally even without the above phenomenon I still think they're definitely one of the easiest to damage.
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but the spit takes much less thinking.
I think this is very true. The Frank takes some practice to fly well.
- oldman
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I think this is very true. The Frank takes some practice to fly well.
- oldman
Well this is all relative, all of the "better" rides take a bit more experience. The Frank does take a little more time in the seat then the spit but I think you can get more out of the Frank. After having said that I laughed cause I'm a complete bafoon in the spit (all thumbs) :aok. But seriously all the so called "harder rides" are interestingly enough the "best" rides.
Corsair= This plane changes dramatically once you learn some good flap management skills
K4= Throttle control, throttle control and gunnery
P38= Nothing and I mean nothing can manipulate the "verticle" fight like this jewel
KI84= what can I say, keep this plane inside your opponents "personal space" and it is almost unbeatable
F6= learn to be comfortable with the lack of views and this plane is a true monster
Mossy= Not familiar with this ride enough but I've seen Grizz, Bat and Kappa reverse it so fast it will boggle the mind
NJUG= this truely is a diamond in the rough, get past the poor acceleration and manage flaps well and this beasty is a true predator
There's a few others but my point is a NOOB will never do well in these rides. But an experienced player with these rides will pwn experienced players in comparable "easy rides". These rides actually have more options and tools at there disposal than "1-2 trick" easy rides IMHO
JUGgler
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The Ki-84 is extremely competitive against any Spit. If it suckers the Spit into a level or climbing spiral, it's all over.
My main tactic against the Ki, if I had room, was to get fast and stay fast. The Spit has significantly better high speed handling than the Ki, and you can bleed off that extra speed much more quickly than the nearly control-locked Ki. Get them really fast, hit the brakes, then crank it around. Enjoy your kill.
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The Ki-84 is extremely competitive against any Spit. If it suckers the Spit into a level or climbing spiral, it's all over.
You mean it's all over for the ki if they get into a climbing spiral? Since Spitfire has a better climb rate a climbing spiral with a Spitfire is the worst thing a Ki84 pilot can possibly do.
Your saying Ki-84 is extremely competitive against any Spit. Spit 1 & 5 can easy out turn the ki, and 14 operates in totally different speed ranges that unless he really wants to fight the ki, there is no way ki is fighting him. So the only ones I can compare the Ki to are the 9, 8, and 16.
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Well this is all relative, all of the "better" rides take a bit more experience. The Frank does take a little more time in the seat then the spit but I think you can get more out of the Frank. After having said that I laughed cause I'm a complete bafoon in the spit (all thumbs) :aok. But seriously all the so called "harder rides" are interestingly enough the "best" rides.
Corsair= This plane changes dramatically once you learn some good flap management skills
K4= Throttle control, throttle control and gunnery
P38= Nothing and I mean nothing can manipulate the "verticle" fight like this jewel
KI84= what can I say, keep this plane inside your opponents "personal space" and it is almost unbeatable
F6= learn to be comfortable with the lack of views and this plane is a true monster
Mossy= Not familiar with this ride enough but I've seen Grizz, Bat and Kappa reverse it so fast it will boggle the mind
NJUG= this truely is a diamond in the rough, get past the poor acceleration and manage flaps well and this beasty is a true predator
There's a few others but my point is a NOOB will never do well in these rides. But an experienced player with these rides will pwn experienced players in comparable "easy rides". These rides actually have more options and tools at there disposal than "1-2 trick" easy rides IMHO
JUGgler
I disagree.
Some of the planes you mentioned are good for a noob, some of the other that you mentioned are not good for anyone (sure they might be enjoyable to fly but you wont be the best in them).
F4U: Good guns and good turn rate for any noob to use, if they drop flaps that turn rate increases. You don't need to know how many notches of flaps to drop, just drop what you feel is needed to turn with the enemy, yes you might burn up your energy but a noob does not need to be an expert in this plane. Also compared to a lot of other planes it has air breaks which help out a lot. I'd recommend this plane to a lot of noobs.
K4: Great for running, any noob would love that. Guns will be a problem, but since most noobs can't hit anything anyways it's not that bad.
P-38: It might be good in the vertical, but the only person who ever gave me trouble in that plane was ack-ack, so excluding him no matter how good you know this plane you will be at a disadvantage.
Ki-84: I think a noob will do well in the Ki84, it's a Japanese build Spitfire.
F6F: Visibility wont be a problem for a noob because their SA sucks anyways. But it does turn good, has good guns, and is capable of taking a lot of fire.
Mossy: It can be flown well with a good pilot, but just like the 38 I have yet to see anyone give me a hard time in it.
NJUG: Same thing, don't remember anyone giving me trouble in it.
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You mean it's all over for the ki if they get into a climbing spiral? Since Spitfire has a better climb rate a climbing spiral with a Spitfire is the worst thing a Ki84 pilot can possibly do.
Nope. Unless they've remodeled the Ki-84 since I was flying against it, it had a huge advantage in any vertical fight where flaps and low speed handling mattered.
Your saying Ki-84 is extremely competitive against any Spit. Spit 1 & 5 can easy out turn the ki, and 14 operates in totally different speed ranges that unless he really wants to fight the ki, there is no way ki is fighting him. So the only ones I can compare the Ki to are the 9, 8, and 16.
Yes, I'm saying it's competitive against any Spit.
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Nope. Unless they've remodeled the Ki-84 since I was flying against it, it had a huge advantage in any vertical fight where flaps and low speed handling mattered.
Yes, I'm saying it's competitive against any Spit.
What kind of low speed do you have in mind? A smart Spitfire pilot will just not get to slow and will not have any problems.
Could you explain what made you come to the conclusion that Ki-84 is extremely competitive against Spitfires I, V, and XIV? Their performance envelope is not only different, but it's in a totally different spot.
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I disagree.
Some of the planes you mentioned are good for a noob, some of the other that you mentioned are not good for anyone (sure they might be enjoyable to fly but you wont be the best in them).
F4U: Good guns and good turn rate for any noob to use, if they drop flaps that turn rate increases. You don't need to know how many notches of flaps to drop, just drop what you feel is needed to turn with the enemy, yes you might burn up your energy but a noob does not need to be an expert in this plane. Also compared to a lot of other planes it has air breaks which help out a lot. I'd recommend this plane to a lot of noobs.
K4: Great for running, any noob would love that. Guns will be a problem, but since most noobs can't hit anything anyways it's not that bad.
P-38: It might be good in the vertical, but the only person who ever gave me trouble in that plane was ack-ack, so excluding him no matter how good you know this plane you will be at a disadvantage.
Ki-84: I think a noob will do well in the Ki84, it's a Japanese build Spitfire.
F6F: Visibility wont be a problem for a noob because their SA sucks anyways. But it does turn good, has good guns, and is capable of taking a lot of fire.
Mossy: It can be flown well with a good pilot, but just like the 38 I have yet to see anyone give me a hard time in it.
NJUG: Same thing, don't remember anyone giving me trouble in it.
Really?
Which of the above rides would a NOOB be successful in? I mean honestly?
I guess if you're just "perch picking" I can see it, But this would not be my definition of "successful" :aok
JUGgler
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What kind of low speed do you have in mind? A smart Spitfire pilot will just not get to slow and will not have any problems.
Wait, we're talking about planes, right? Or pilots? Smart pilots will beat dumb pilots every time without regard to the planes they're flying. I argue that the pilots being equal, the Ki-84 matches up well against all Spits. I didn't suggest that it was superior.
Could you explain what made you come to the conclusion that Ki-84 is extremely competitive against Spitfires I, V, and XIV? Their performance envelope is not only different, but it's in a totally different spot.
By your logic, the Zeke should be the greatest plane in the game since it outturns pretty much everything. So what if the Spit I and V outturn the Ki? The Ki possesses significantly better low speed vertical handling and flaps responsiveness than either of them. I flew the godly and later the less-than-godly Spit V for years, and a Ki-84 matched up extremely well against it when flown to its strengths.
Also by your logic, the Spit XIV should be outclassed by the Ki-84 since the Ki easily outturns it. Yet you were arguing exactly the opposite of that earlier - that the Spit XIV dominates due to its speed advantage. Either turning matters, or it doesn't matter. How's that Spit XIV's slow speed vertical handling? I recall it being rather tempermental when it got slow.
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MachFly you remember that Lev was pretty much Spitfire King for years and years, right? see above
The Ki84's fowlers leave it with much better agility than the Spit's single-notch split flaps. No contest..
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MachFly you remember that Lev was pretty much Spitfire King for years and years, right? The Ki84's fowlers leave it with much better agility than the Spit's single-notch split flaps.
Sorry I don't remember who Lev is, perhaps I'll remember if I see his avatar. Is Lev his full name?
Ki-84 does have better flaps, that is one thing the Spitfire really lacks.
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Really?
Which of the above rides would a NOOB be successful in? I mean honestly?
I guess if you're just "perch picking" I can see it, But this would not be my definition of "successful" :aok
JUGgler
I can't think of a single airplane a noob would be successful in, at least successful by my standards. His skill would always let him down.
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Machly you might want to check your data. The Ki-84 has better low alt stats.
<waves to +dead>
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Wait, we're talking about planes, right? Or pilots? Smart pilots will beat dumb pilots every time without regard to the planes they're flying. I argue that the pilots being equal, the Ki-84 matches up well against all Spits. I didn't suggest that it was superior.
By your logic, the Zeke should be the greatest plane in the game since it outturns pretty much everything. So what if the Spit I and V outturn the Ki? The Ki possesses significantly better low speed vertical handling and flaps responsiveness than either of them. I flew the godly and later the less-than-godly Spit V for years, and a Ki-84 matched up extremely well against it when flown to its strengths.
Also by your logic, the Spit XIV should be outclassed by the Ki-84 since the Ki easily outturns it. Yet you were arguing exactly the opposite of that earlier - that the Spit XIV dominates due to its speed advantage. Either turning matters, or it doesn't matter. How's that Spit XIV's slow speed vertical handling? I recall it being rather tempermental when it got slow.
Right planes, forget what I said about the pilots. What kind of low speed were you talking about? ~100mph, 150mph, 250mph, ect...?
I'm not saying if the airplane turns better than it is superior, I'm saying that if the their best performance is at totally different speeds and they would play the dogfight with different maneuvers. You can't say that one is better than the other, it's like comparing the zero and 190D9.
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Machly you might want to check your data. The Ki-84 has better low alt stats.
<waves to +dead>
Heya, FLS :) How's life treating you these days?
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What kind of low speed were you talking about? ~100mph, 150mph, 250mph, ect...?
Definitely under 200. Once you're under 150 and approaching 100, the flaps on the Ki, particularly in the vertical, give it a huge advantage. Most of the really good Ki pilots I played against would try to get the fight slow, then they'd start working the fight vertically. The staying fast part is easier said than done, because if you're converting alt to speed, you risk putting the Ki on a perch. To avoid that, I'd usually give them my six, get them to commit to it, then dive for speed and work around them in the 300 to 350 range. If you don't have enough air below you, or if you're on the deck, that strategy is a bust.
I'm not saying if the airplane turns better than it is superior, I'm saying that if the their best performance is at totally different speeds and they would play the dogfight with different maneuvers. You can't say that one is better than the other, it's like comparing the zero and 190D9.
I think it's a stretch to compare the Ki-84 versus Spit XIV to the Zeke vs. 190D9. I understand what you're trying to say, but you're overstating your case. They're a lot closer in performance than they are apart.
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double post
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I have to agree with Lev on this one,while on paper the spit has a slight"sustained" climb advantage,in practice the KI can keep it's nose up when the spit starts to flounder.This happens at or about the same speed that the Ki can deploy it's flaps and this allows the KI to turn either way,this is what gives it the upper hand on the spit.The spiteen likely has the toughest time dealing with this type of encounter as it falls off it's left wing far too easy when slow.
:salute
PS: good to see you back Dead!
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Definitely under 200. Once you're under 150 and approaching 100, the flaps on the Ki, particularly in the vertical, give it a huge advantage. Most of the really good Ki pilots I played against would try to get the fight slow, then they'd start working the fight vertically. The staying fast part is easier said than done, because if you're converting alt to speed, you risk putting the Ki on a perch. To avoid that, I'd usually give them my six, get them to commit to it, then dive for speed and work around them in the 300 to 350 range. If you don't have enough air below you, or if you're on the deck, that strategy is a bust.
Your right, if your under 150 Ki had an advantage in vertical maneuvering.
I think it's a stretch to compare the Ki-84 versus Spit XIV to the Zeke vs. 190D9. I understand what you're trying to say, but you're overstating your case. They're a lot closer in performance than they are apart.
Roger.
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Machly you might want to check your data. The Ki-84 has better low alt stats.
<waves to +dead>
Top speed is the only thing Ki-84 has better than Spitfire mk XVIII at low altitude.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=85&p2=78&pw=2>ype=0)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=85&p2=78&pw=2>ype=2)
(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/9034/43457465.jpg)
My acceleration test from a few days ago:
The following test on acceleration was done at 65ft, from 150mph to 250mph with WEP and 50% fuel.
Ki-84: 21.2 Seconds
Spit8: 18.8 Seconds
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I have to agree with Lev on this one,while on paper the spit has a slight"sustained" climb advantage,in practice the KI can keep it's nose up when the spit starts to flounder.This happens at or about the same speed that the Ki can deploy it's flaps and this allows the KI to turn either way,this is what gives it the upper hand on the spit.
If the Spit8 just starts climbing than the Ki-84 will probably be able to pull it's nose up and shoot him (as you said), but the proper thing to do is accelerate a bit (as I pointed out in the previous post Spit8 accelerates faster) and then you start climbing. If done right the Spitfire will be in a perfect position to drop down on the Ki that is at low energy state (or leave the fight).
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If the Spit8 just starts climbing than the Ki-84 will probably be able to pull it's nose up and shoot him (as you said), but the proper thing to do is accelerate a bit (as I pointed out in the previous post Spit8 accelerates faster) and then you start climbing. If done right the Spitfire will be in a perfect position to drop down on the Ki that is at low energy state (or leave the fight).
Don't get too wrapped up in those charts - it's easy to look at minor differences and see them as gaping performance chasms. In a dogfight situation, co-alt and co-E, a marginal difference in acceleration won't have a huge impact on the fight. You've also left out some other important variables such as turn rate and some intangibles such as low speed handling and platform stability. To put it simply, the Spit is pretty stable and controllable at medium and high speeds where planes like the Ki-84 and the 109s tend to stiffen up, and the Ki-84 is very stable and controllable at low speeds. Good pilots in both planes will try to play to these strengths.
However, realize that a 1.5 second advantage in acceleration from 150 to 250 (which the Ki erases and surpasses once you go beyond 250) won't amount to any significant separation in an actual fight. If you're having success building a perch against Ki pilots in the Spit VIII using such tactics, then the people you're playing against just aren't as good as you. Don't blame the plane for that though.
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Don't get too wrapped up in those charts - it's easy to look at minor differences and see them as gaping performance chasms. In a dogfight situation, co-alt and co-E, a marginal difference in acceleration won't have a huge impact on the fight. You've also left out some other important variables such as turn rate and some intangibles such as low speed handling and platform stability. To put it simply, the Spit is pretty stable and controllable at medium and high speeds where planes like the Ki-84 and the 109s tend to stiffen up, and the Ki-84 is very stable and controllable at low speeds. Good pilots in both planes will try to play to these strengths.
However, realize that a 1.5 second advantage in acceleration from 150 to 250 (which the Ki erases and surpasses once you go beyond 250) won't amount to any significant separation in an actual fight. If you're having success building a perch against Ki pilots in the Spit VIII using such tactics, then the people you're playing against just aren't as good as you. Don't blame the plane for that though.
The pilots are indeed a large factor, but I think if you do it right you'll be able to get away. It works for me all the time but I fly spit14 most of the time, not 8. I'm not saying I have not done it in the 8, just don't do it as often.
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Don't get too wrapped up in those charts - it's easy to look at minor differences and see them as gaping performance chasms.
This is key, I think.
- oldman (good to see you +Todd, bigweek misses you)
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Top speed is the only thing Ki-84 has better than Spitfire mk XVIII at low altitude.
You said the Ki was comparable to the 8,9, and 14. You said the 1 and 5 out turn it. The Ki out climbs and is faster than the 1 and 5 so it's hardly outclassed by them, it just has different qualities.
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Top speed is the only thing Ki-84 has better than Spitfire mk XVIII at low altitude.
You said the Ki was comparable to the 8,9, and 14. You said the 1 and 5 out turn it. The Ki out climbs and is faster than the 1 and 5 so it's hardly outclassed by them, it just has different qualities.
I never said Ki-84 was better than Spit1 & 5, I said that you can't really compare 1 & 5 because they have different qualities (I just used different terminology).
In the post that you quoted I was specifically comparing Ki-84 and Spit8.
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This is key, I think.
- oldman (good to see you +Todd, bigweek misses you)
Hey, Oldman. Big Week is still up?!? What's the address?
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You spike the G meter, you'll rip the wings off. Doesn't mean the bullets are the same as Gs. I don't think you can make that link without HTC chiming in either way.
Most of the times I'm unloading tons of ammo into a spit it's at slower speeds and they could not spike the G meter to rip wings off no matter how hard they pull. Only times I've ever done that are in nose down high speed manuvers or doing something with a lot of smash. Seems not to be an issue in the lower half of the envelope.
So there ya go... You're flying it too fast!!! :D
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MachFly you have everything all mixed up. :lol
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MachFly you have everything all mixed up. :lol
Then please explain.
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Then please explain.
You keep changing Spit models. We were talking about the 1,5,and 14. You said the Ki wasn't competitive.
What kind of low speed do you have in mind? A smart Spitfire pilot will just not get to slow and will not have any problems.
Could you explain what made you come to the conclusion that Ki-84 is extremely competitive against Spitfires I, V, and XIV? Their performance envelope is not only different, but it's in a totally different spot.
I never said Ki-84 was better than Spit1 & 5, I said that you can't really compare 1 & 5 because they have different qualities (I just used different terminology).
I never said that you said the Ki was better. You said the opposite of that. My point was that the Ki had a better climb and top speed than the 1 and 5. Then you tell me it doesn't out climb the 8. OK fine. I never said it did. You quoted me and then mentioned the Spit8 which I hadn't commented on.
Clear now? :D
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You keep changing Spit models. We were talking about the 1,5,and 14. You said the Ki wasn't competitive.
I never said that you said the Ki was better. You said the opposite of that. My point was that the Ki had a better climb and top speed than the 1 and 5. Then you tell me it doesn't out climb the 8. OK fine. I never said it did. You quoted me and then mentioned the Spit8 which I hadn't commented on.
Clear now? :D
Ah, I thought you meant I had my info mixed up.
You quoted my post about a spit8 and commented about spit1, 5, 9, 8, & 14. So I'm confused myself.
Top speed is the only thing Ki-84 has better than Spitfire mk XVIII at low altitude.
You said the Ki was comparable to the 8,9, and 14. You said the 1 and 5 out turn it. The Ki out climbs and is faster than the 1 and 5 so it's hardly outclassed by them, it just has different qualities.
I used 1 & 5 models to make an example, I never wanted to start a Spit 1 vs Ki-84 discussion. Lets just get back to Spit8 vs Ki-84.
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The Ki out climbs and is faster than the 1 and 5 so it's hardly outclassed by them, it just has different qualities.
The guns! Don't forget to factor in the guns too!
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Wow 8 pages. I'm the original poster so let me know if I have this about right, Spit 8 vs Ki84, im flying the spit, as a loose strategy I should: Keep speed up above 240, if possible get the KI to overspeed in a dive (+ 350), don't count on acceleration, climb rate, or level top speed to help, become a better pilot, shoot first. Is this right? remember I am talking about less than or equal skill level on my part.
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Wow 8 pages. I'm the original poster so let me know if I have this about right, Spit 8 vs Ki84, im flying the spit, as a loose strategy I should: Keep speed up above 240, if possible get the KI to overspeed in a dive (+ 350), don't count on acceleration, climb rate, or level top speed to help, become a better pilot, shoot first. Is this right? remember I am talking about less than or equal skill level on my part.
I fly the Ki84 a lot. Here's my general experience fighting Spits. In a Co-E merge, the Spit drive has a big advantage at the merge most of the time, simply because the speeds are usually much higher at the merge and the Spit driver can gain an advantage right away in the first turn, because his ride likes the faster speeds better. From that point on, the Ki84 driver is trying to make up that ground, which is really tough to do. Winning that first merge is a huge advantage for the Spit pilot.
So my advice to you as a Spit pilot. Work to win that first merge. It puts the Ki guy behind right out of the gate. He now has to be that much better and push that much harder to make up for the merge. The harder he pushes, the more likely he is to make a critical error and give you an opening.
As a Ki driver, I find it very helpful to enter that merge as close to corner speed as possible.
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Wow 8 pages. I'm the original poster so let me know if I have this about right, Spit 8 vs Ki84, im flying the spit, as a loose strategy I should: Keep speed up above 240, if possible get the KI to overspeed in a dive (+ 350), don't count on acceleration, climb rate, or level top speed to help, become a better pilot, shoot first. Is this right? remember I am talking about less than or equal skill level on my part.
Someone who flies it enough will correct me if this is wrong, but you might even benefit from taking the fight as low as just above the Ki 84's first flap speed.
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Perhaps Rud3boi will post his opinion. He is the only pilot I know who flies the Ki-84 successfully.
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:rofl
Perhaps Rud3boi will post his opinion. He is the only pilot I know who flies the Ki-84 successfully.
Really?
JUGgler
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Perhaps Rud3boi will post his opinion. He is the only pilot I know who flies the Ki-84 successfully.
Define "successfully".
By any reasonable definition of "successfully" there are many people who do so in the Ki-84, even myself.
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Define "successfully".
By any reasonable definition of "successfully" there are many people who do so in the Ki-84, even myself.
NrShida is very good in the ki-84.
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Define "successfully".
By any reasonable definition of "successfully" there are many people who do so in the Ki-84, even myself.
He's got a K/D of 4.85 in it, I think that's good.
:rofl
Really?
JUGgler
I have no idea what your trying to say.
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He's got a K/D of 4.85 in it, I think that's good.
That is good, but many others have good K/D ratios in it too. It is one of the, probably, top 10 best unperked fighters in AH. Its K/D ratio exceeds any Spitfire other than the Mk XIV, which is perked, every tour.
I have no idea what your trying to say.
Your statement sounded like you were saying that Rud3boi was the only successful user of the Ki-84. Rereading it I can see you meant the only one you knew, not the only one at all.
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Right, he is the only one that I know.
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kill/death ratio...does not show how one is "successful" no stats do unless you know exactly how that person flies....
lets see got 111 kills in it died 65 times.....sounds "successful" to me.
earlier today I got into a two vs one me in KI against a 109 and a 51...killed em both :aok
Late War Tour 134
Kills by INK in a
Ki-84-Ia by model type
Model Type Kills Percent
A-20G 2 1.802
A6M5b 4 3.604
B-17G 2 1.802
B-24J 5 4.505
B-25C 1 0.901
B-25H 1 0.901
Bf 109E-4 1 0.901
Bf 109F-4 1 0.901
Bf 109G-14 5 4.505
Bf 109G-6 1 0.901
Bf 109K-4 4 3.604
Bf 110G-2 3 2.703
F4U-1 1 0.901
F4U-1A 5 4.505
F4U-1C 1 0.901
F4U-1D 3 2.703
F6F-5 3 2.703
FM2 9 8.108
Fw 190A-5 3 2.703
Fw 190A-8 2 1.802
Fw 190D-9 2 1.802
Fw 190F-8 1 0.901
Hurri Mk IIC 1 0.901
Ki-61 1 0.901
Ki-84-Ia 3 2.703
La-5FN 1 0.901
La-7 4 3.604
Lanc III 2 1.802
Me 262 1 0.901
N1K2 3 2.703
P-38J 1 0.901
P-38L 1 0.901
P-47-D25 3 2.703
P-47-D40 2 1.802
P-47M 2 1.802
P-51D 8 7.207
SeaFire 4 3.604
Spit Mk IX 1 0.901
Spit Mk XIV 1 0.901
Spit Mk XVI 8 7.207
Ta 152H 1 0.901
Typhoon IB 2 1.802
Yak-9T 1 0.901
111 Kills
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First, the reason that I mentioned him if because I know how he flies, not just the K/D.
Second, if the K/D does not represent how successful the person flies find me anyone who is unsuccessful with a K/D or 3 and above.
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First, the reason that I mentioned him if because I know how he flies, not just the K/D.
Second, if the K/D does not represent how successful the person flies find me anyone who is unsuccessful with a K/D or 3 and above.
well their successful at something alright :aok
and I also know how Rud flies....most often surrounded by green guys :aok yup he is a great shot and a great picker :aok
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Yay me! 4.4:1 k/d in the Ki84 last tour. I must be successful! :D
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Yay me! 4.4:1 k/d in the Ki84 last tour. I must be successful! :D
Yeah but you have only 44 kills in it :devil :bolt:
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Yeah but you have only 44 kills in it :devil :bolt:
Well I didn't get back into it until the last few days of the tour. :D
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He's got a K/D of 4.85 in it, I think that's good.
K/D is more of an indicator of safe flying and maybe good gunnery. Most anyone could have good K/D flying at the edge of enemy bases cherrying everything. Don't get me wrong Rud is quite excellent but he flies "soft".
Good K/D shows me that, the peep in question "may" have serious "ego issues" with "tower time" ;)
BTW Lippy may be the best ki84 driver at the moment! :aok
JUGgler
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I'll second Lippy over Rudeboi. Much more aggressive and generally dogfight savvy.
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K/D is more of an indicator of safe flying and maybe good gunnery. Most anyone could have good K/D flying at the edge of enemy bases cherrying everything. Don't get me wrong Rud is quite excellent but he flies "soft".
Good K/D shows me that, the peep in question "may" have serious "ego issues" with "tower time" ;)
BTW Lippy may be the best ki84 driver at the moment! :aok
JUGgler
I'm not following you.
"soft"?
"ego issues" with "tower time"?
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I'd take the Spit 8/9/16 over the Ki-84. Mostly because of the Hizookas - if the Ki-84 driver makes any mistakes at all he is going to be a deader about 90% of the time. The Spits can reverse faster off an initial "DA" style merge, and if they land a snapshot the Ki-84 will be dead far more often than not - and even if he isn't dead I don't think I've ever seen a Hizooka round land on a fighter and not damage something. A Ki-84 missing a flap or an aileron (or his entire tail, if the round lands there) is a Ki-84 that isn't going to have a lot of luck fighting.
If the Ki-84 gets extremely lucky or the Spit driver can't shoot, the longer the fight goes the better the Ki-84s chances - I liked to try to get Spits into a slow spiral climb when I flew the Ki-84.
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Urchin,
I've hit an La-7 with 10 Hispano rounds and not damaged it. I was flying a Typhoon, shooting a squirrely La-7 on which the hits came in ones and twos over a long period. Eventually I stalled out and hit the ground.
The Hispano hits hard, but not that hard. As I recall, the Type 99 Model II hits for 95% of what a Hispano does, the MG151/20 for about 80-85% and the Ho-5 for about 70-75%.
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I'm not following you.
"soft"?
"ego issues" with "tower time"?
In a nut shell I'm saying K/D means jackdoodlysquat ;)
JUGgler
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In a nut shell I'm saying K/D means jackdoodlysquat ;)
JUGgler
I understood that part :)
I disagree with it, but lets not get into that.
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In a nut shell I'm saying K/D means jackdoodlysquat ;)
I don't know if I agree that it means "jackdoodlysquat". Not every two weeker can post up a >1 K/D in a tour. But I do agree that it can be manipulated pretty easily. Heck, fly a P51, 190, or Typh in full high alt BnZ 1 pass extend 6k pick mode and just about anyone can put up a good K/D ratio. Which is why, I believe, we see the large numbers of runstangs and run90s in the MA these days.
I personally don't see the appeal. I've flown that way before, in the P51s and 190s, I never make it very long before I get bored and up in something a little more interesting like a Ki84, 109G14 or F, F4U1D, or maybe C205.
All that said, I am wondering if there is ANY metric in the current score system that has much value in judging skill? Seems like they can all be manipulated to some degree or another.
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I don't know if I agree that it means "jackdoodlysquat". Not every two weeker can post up a >1 K/D in a tour. But I do agree that it can be manipulated pretty easily. Heck, fly a P51, 190, or Typh in full high alt BnZ 1 pass extend 6k pick mode and just about anyone can put up a good K/D ratio. Which is why, I believe, we see the large numbers of runstangs and run90s in the MA these days.
I personally don't see the appeal. I've flown that way before, in the P51s and 190s, I never make it very long before I get bored and up in something a little more interesting like a Ki84, 109G14 or F, F4U1D, or maybe C205.
All that said, I am wondering if there is ANY metric in the current score system that has much value in judging skill? Seems like they can all be manipulated to some degree or another.
I don't think there is a "metric" to truly judge someones skill, the only way is to fight them...or by using your own eyes...when you see this person is he always in a hourd? does he only fly very fast planes picking furballs? is he a vulch king? does he have lots of assists? if so that means he is always around friendlies....there are many factors that you can assess...but Fighting them is the only way to truly judge...not just one or two fights. at least that's how I see it :headscratch:
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All that said, I am wondering if there is ANY metric in the current score system that has much value in judging skill? Seems like they can all be manipulated to some degree or another.
YES, Respect.
The people we fight against are the best judge of ones ability.
I say everyone put their big girl panties on and fight!
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In a nut shell I'm saying K/D means jackdoodlysquat ;)
JUGgler
Hey it's another case of Way agreeing with Juggler! :aok
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Ink:
funny spit 5 has 5 kills on me, I haven't killed one yet this tour,
Those were all you and me(Tundra) having those KI84 vs SpitV fights that one night. I and I get killed because of you a couple times, I had remembered the score being 5-2, but you just didn't get the CREDIT for those kills, somebody else may have done most damage.
I think that the Spit V is the one Spit that is VERY hard to kill in a KI, which is why I fly it when I meet up with Ki's.
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Ink:
Those were all you and me(Tundra) having those KI84 vs SpitV fights that one night. I and I get killed because of you a couple times, I had remembered the score being 5-2, but you just didn't get the CREDIT for those kills, somebody else may have done most damage.
I think that the Spit V is the one Spit that is VERY hard to kill in a KI, which is why I fly it when I meet up with Ki's.
well that just means your friendlies killed me before I got the kill.... :D I do remember your name but cant remember the fights :headscratch: I do remember getting into it with a 5 and thinking that the guy flew awesomely, but ya the spit 5 is definitely a more capable plane against the KI
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Ya, I recall that as well , you gave me quite flattering remarks on my Spit V pilotage, which should be that good as I spent a year in the middle 2000's trying to pretend I was Leviathn, haha.
Also for the record you are easily the most dangerous KI84 pilot I've run into in the Spit V, with possibly a tie going to Bruv when he flew it for that tour.
<S>
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Ya, I recall that as well , you gave me quite flattering remarks on my Spit V pilotage, which should be that good as I spent a year in the middle 2000's trying to pretend I was Leviathn, haha.
Also for the record you are easily the most dangerous KI84 pilot I've run into in the Spit V, with possibly a tie going to Bruv when he flew it for that tour.
<S>
no matter what I always try to give credit were it is due, even if someone uses "tactics" I don't agree with--Not saying you did at all...but say if I out maneuver someone then they run away, but come back and "pick" me, if it was a good shot ill say "good shot" on the same hand if someone is totally being a tard ill be the first to call him out on it :D Ive always been one to tell it how I see it, even if its detrimental to me.
now when I see spit 5's I get as aggressive as I can,im sure somewhere down the line ill run into another spit5 and just be vicious with them...they better blame you not me :D
:salute
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I'd take the Frank over any Spitfire any day just for WEP alone.. 3 minutes WEP in the Frank, but it only takes 1/2 the time to recharge.. So a minute or so and you're good to go.. Most Spit peelots will obliviously follow you up in a left hand spiral climb.. They won't be able to hang with you (only works up to 10 or 11K), they'll run out of WEP, they'll stall, you roll over and take 'em out.. Very easy, very effective..
It's all about fighting to your strengths.. And there are many things the Ki-84 does better than just about any Spitfire.. The fire rate of the Ho-5 is unmatched(20mm buzzsaw).. Definitely has the roll advantage over any spit except for the Spit Mk 16.. I'm mainly a 38 stick (don't fly much anymore as real life has been getting in the way), but I dig the Frank a lot and fly it for its similarities in handling to the P-38..
On a final note: Use of trim is QUITE effective on the Frank.. I've taken it past 450 trimmed out properly, didn't lose parts, and had marginal control if the ride..
My opinion of course..
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I'd take the Frank over any Spitfire any day just for WEP alone.. 3 minutes WEP in the Frank, but it only takes 1/2 the time to recharge.. So a minute or so and you're good to go.. Most Spit peelots will obliviously follow you up in a left hand spiral climb.. They won't be able to hang with you (only works up to 10 or 11K), they'll run out of WEP, they'll stall, you roll over and take 'em out.. Very easy, very effective..
It's all about fighting to your strengths.. And there are many things the Ki-84 does better than just about any Spitfire.. The fire rate of the Ho-5 is unmatched(20mm buzzsaw).. Definitely has the roll advantage over any spit except for the Spit Mk 16.. I'm mainly a 38 stick (don't fly much anymore as real life has been getting in the way), but I dig the Frank a lot and fly it for its similarities in handling to the P-38..
On a final note: Use of trim is QUITE effective on the Frank.. I've taken it past 450 trimmed out properly, didn't lose parts, and had marginal control if the ride..
My opinion of course..
The maneuver you described would not work with a Spitfire as the Spitfire has a greater climb rate. The WEP on Ki84 would not give you any advantage as the Spitfire is more powerful and can maintain WEP for a longer period of time, so if he does not get to you while both WEPs are on, he'll defiantly get you when you loose your WEP and you wont have time to recharge it.
The rate of fire is indeed greater on the Ki-84, but a single 20mm round from a Hispano is more powerful than a Ho-5. I don't know which gun exactly is better, but you can not say that Ho-5 is better just because of the rate of fire.
I don't remember the roll rate on the ki at low speeds so I can't compare it.
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Ki 84 WEP isn't 3min but 90sec. 45sec cool-off.
The wep comparisons aren't really on solid ground.. They work on the assumption that both pilots will use wep. And I don't know if that can be taken for granted at all. A pilot that modulates WEP use to the max will get a lot more time before running out, vice one that simply flicks it on when the fight starts and leaves it on till it runs out. The difference in WEP cycle timing between 84 and VIII (or 84 and pretty much anything else) are such that IMO it breaks down into two main categories: short fights where one of the two dies quickly, and protracted fights where the 84 will have to manage his WEP use to best fit his maneuvering.
Ho-5 and Hisp. II ROFs are 14 rps and 10 rps respectively, and cartridge powers are 11 and 20 resp., so unless their respective synchronization are biased to the Ho-5's advantage, the Hispano ought to be more potent on a burst basis -- a total math hunch, no calcs done.
IIRC the 84 has a noticeably better roll rate although not quite as much down at 200ias and lower. The 84 also has noticeably less mushy nose to contend with.
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Ho-5 and Hisp. II ROFs are 14 rps and 10 rps respectively, and cartridge powers are 11 and 20 resp., so unless their respective synchronization are biased to the Ho-5's advantage, the Hispano ought to be more potent on a burst basis -- a total math hunch, no calcs done.
I did not have the numbers ;)
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Those numbers are from Tony Williams' tables.. I don't know if they're for synchronized ROF or not.
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Here is the info that was tested in AH
RPM:
Made a test in AH, timed how long would it take to empty the cannons on the Spitfire and Ki-84.
| Spifire | 240 rounds | 11.3 seconds | 636RPM |
| Ki-84 | 300 rounds | 11.3 seconds | 796RPM |
Surprisingly both took exactly the same amount of time.
Projectile Strength:
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6186/gunu.jpg)
Aces High Stats (damage)
Japan 20mm Type 99 Mk I HE 3.42
Japan 20mm Type 99 Mk II HE 3.85
Japan 20mm Ho-5 HE 3.35
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You had the prop running for the top trials?
Projectile strength IIRC is against objects, IE does not account for projectile speed.
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What deferents does the prop make? None of the canons fire though the prop.
The test was done only on the canons, not the guns.
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Am I confusing the 84's cannons with the Ki 61s that are on the cowl? - I did.
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the KI can only really turn hard when it is slow <160 when the flaps come down. Although the spit's flap comes down around the same speed it can turn better without it's flap. With differing stages of flap it complicates the issue.
the KI is a beast under 10k soon as the fight gets higher the spit starts to gain more advantages.
In a fair 50% fuel fight I would take the Spit 8 purely because the KI pilot has to carefully manage his throttle and flap work if he is to stand a chance of getting a shot. Over speed in a dive and the flaps will auto retract back leaving you vulnerable in the turn until you can get slow again.
Both planes are great fun to fly aggressively but I think the spit just steals it, in a mano mano fight to the death.
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The maneuver you described would not work with a Spitfire as the Spitfire has a greater climb rate. The WEP on Ki84 would not give you any advantage as the Spitfire is more powerful and can maintain WEP for a longer period of time, so if he does not get to you while both WEPs are on, he'll defiantly get you when you loose your WEP and you wont have time to recharge it.
The rate of fire is indeed greater on the Ki-84, but a single 20mm round from a Hispano is more powerful than a Ho-5. I don't know which gun exactly is better, but you can not say that Ho-5 is better just because of the rate of fire.
I don't remember the roll rate on the ki at low speeds so I can't compare it.
Maneuver works just fine and I've used it countless times to ruin many Spitifire driver's day.. :)
Especially after you've made them use up all their WEP...
Got tons of recorded video through-out the years to show that...
Intelligent use of WEP in the Frank will absolutely make it outlast any Spitfire's WEP...(thanks to quick recharge rate)..
Face it... In a Spit, you will probably land or die before WEP ever recharges...
Flap use is important as well.. All these things in combination used properly will make a semi-experienced Ki-84 stick at least have a good time..
Most Spit pilots aren't that great in the first place (hence why they "need" a Spitfire).. Just sayin'...
Ki-84 will also always take WAY more damage than any Spitfire.. 1 20mm hit the wing root of a Spitfire and it's easily over.. :)
I never said it was better.. Hispano is markedly better, but doesn't have the same buzz-saw fire rate as the Ho-5(plus you get 30 more rounds per cannon).. I get in close, fire a micro-burst, and it's over..
Roll rate is better all around(low speeds as well) in the Ki-84..
Plus, I like it just because it's fun and interesting to fly..
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Most Spit pilots aren't that great in the first place (hence why they "need" a Spitfire).. Just sayin'...
If you're going to compare plane performance, you have to assume that the pilots in both planes possess equal ability. Otherwise, it becomes less about the relative strengths and weaknesses of each plane and more about the relative strengths and weaknesses of each pilot.
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Maneuver works just fine and I've used it countless times to ruin many Spitifire driver's day.. :)
Especially after you've made them use up all their WEP...
Got tons of recorded video through-out the years to show that...
Intelligent use of WEP in the Frank will absolutely make it outlast any Spitfire's WEP...(thanks to quick recharge rate)..
Face it... In a Spit, you will probably land or die before WEP ever recharges...
Flap use is important as well.. All these things in combination used properly will make a semi-experienced Ki-84 stick at least have a good time..
Most Spit pilots aren't that great in the first place (hence why they "need" a Spitfire).. Just sayin'...
Ki-84 will also always take WAY more damage than any Spitfire.. 1 20mm hit the wing root of a Spitfire and it's easily over.. :)
I never said it was better.. Hispano is markedly better, but doesn't have the same buzz-saw fire rate as the Ho-5(plus you get 30 more rounds per cannon).. I get in close, fire a micro-burst, and it's over..
Roll rate is better all around(low speeds as well) in the Ki-84..
Plus, I like it just because it's fun and interesting to fly..
The only thing I can say is that is seems that you never fought any Spitfire who's pilot knew what he was doing. Your description of their compared performance is incorrect.
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MachFly, your claim that the Spitfire will win such a contest may or may not be correct, but keep in mind that just looking at the basic stats does not definitively answer that question. In a straight climb the Spitfire Mk VIII will out climb the Ki-84, but as soon as the description adds "spiral climb to the left" or such the basic stats no longer give perfect answers. It is possible for an aircraft to lose the straight climbing contest, but to win the spiral climbing contest.
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MachFly, your claim that the Spitfire will win such a contest may or may not be correct, but keep in mind that just looking at the basic stats does not definitively answer that question. In a straight climb the Spitfire Mk VIII will out climb the Ki-84, but as soon as the description adds "spiral climb to the left" or such the basic stats no longer give perfect answers. It is possible for an aircraft to lose the straight climbing contest, but to win the spiral climbing contest.
I understand that, as long as the climbing spiral is faster than 160MPH Spitfire will easily outclimb the Ki. I'm not just speaking because of the numbered but I've used that plane for a few years, I know what it's capable off.
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I used to fly the Ki84 a lot. I mean a LOT. It was one of my favorite rides (still is, I guess!)
I'll never forget one time I ran into a Spit9 driver. I thought "Oh, this will be easy, it's only a 9!" -- turns out I was wrong.
That guy was more than a match, performance wise. He was going up with me, matching my moves, spiralling, diving, spiralling again.
Only way I got out of it was to out-stall him at the very extreme end of a zoom with my butterfly flaps.
I don't recall if I ever got a kill or if it was just getting me out of a bad situation, but I got away.
The spit8, with much more available horsepower than the 9, should be quite dangerous to a Ki84. I would say probably the Spit8 holds the cards, as (again as mentioned) the Ki only really holds the advantages when slow enough to use those butterfly flaps.