Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: PJ_Godzilla on March 29, 2011, 09:38:24 AM
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My asbestos jockstrap is at the ready.
However, after reading the recent wishlist entry on the Fairey Firefly, I don't see how we can continue to avoid the sticky topic of night interdiction. Many aircraft in the RW WWII planeset are stellar at night, less so in daylight use. Consider any of a number of examples like the Bf110, Ju88, etc. Both shone as nightfighters but in the LW MAs, both are marginal at best.
Besides, wouldn't a little night bombing scenario much like a darkened version of Der Grosse Schlag be fun? It'd be a great place ot showcase aircraft we don't yet have (it would help motivate their development) like the P-61, He219, Short Stirling, and various iterations of F-dubs (like the schragemusik-equipped 190s). It would add another dimension to the game.
Okay, somebody get the habanero juice. Somebody else get the enema bag. I stand ready for flames.
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No. Night fighting is not the same as just flying a plane at night. Most "night fighters" in real life can only catch bombers if the NF is running full power and the bomber is cruising. On top of that the entire mechanic of night fighting, from taking off, navigating in pitch black, following radio leads and contacts you can't see ("take course xxx here, 10 miles out", and "visual range," and "he's behind you now" etc) it's not even remotely comparable to flying AH at "night"
And there's no point in having an arena. Only people flying at night are the ones that don't want to be engaged. HT said most of the server logged off every time the server cycled to "night time" so they removed it. They have the actual logs and know what was happening. They made the right choice.
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"Hey, let's have a night arena, that'd be fun!"
Just remember, at one point somebody said "Hey, let's have a WWI arena, that'd be fun!"
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Krusty, our posts were within a second of each-other....
:noid
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ya, hate to say it. the WW1 naysayers are STILL wrong. WW1 needs more tender loving development. It will mature into a more used arena as soon as the DR1 gets fixed and more planes, tanks, zeps, arty and other such interesting stuff gets added.
And yes, night sucks. Still, the P61 would be a GREAT addition to AH :)
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it would require eliminating the ability for the gamers to adjust the gamma enough to turn night into day...don't think that's going to happen any more than an arena dedicated to night fighting.
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No. Night fighting is not the same as just flying a plane at night. Most "night fighters" in real life can only catch bombers if the NF is running full power and the bomber is cruising. On top of that the entire mechanic of night fighting, from taking off, navigating in pitch black, following radio leads and contacts you can't see ("take course xxx here, 10 miles out", and "visual range," and "he's behind you now" etc) it's not even remotely comparable to flying AH at "night"
And there's no point in having an arena. Only people flying at night are the ones that don't want to be engaged. HT said most of the server logged off every time the server cycled to "night time" so they removed it. They have the actual logs and know what was happening. They made the right choice.
How would flying at night be "not engaged"? It appears to me to be merely a different type of engagement.
I also think the WWI arena could/would be a hell of a lot of fun if it were developed.
I also take Gyrene's points as credible. The lighting issue is criitical. Night time ISN'T always pitch black. Consider this example account of a visual kill at night:
<snippage>
Occasionally success alleviated the boredom. Ground control radar vectored the 6th Squadron’s “Bluegrass 56” over Saipan for five minutes, until R/O Flight Officer Raymond P. Mooney picked up the bogey on his airborne radar. He reported that:
"the Bogey was traveling very slowly and after closing to 400 feet our craft held position for 3 minutes and finally got visual contact. Bogey was a Japanese single-engine dive-bomber (Kate). 90 rounds of 20-mm was fired point blank into the enemy plane. The fire was plainly seen to enter the right wing and fuselage. By accident cockpit lights flashed on in our craft blinding pilot and preventing further observation."
<end snip>.
Why did he hold for 3 minutes to get visual? To verify friend/foe? I've seen other accounts of v-kills at night. This is but one example.
Otherwise, the closing speed issue is potentially valid, depending on the interceptor in use. However, of the known types used in nightfighting (P-61, 110, 219, P-70, P-38, F6F, FW190, Ju-88/188/388, others) I don't see why this would be such a huge problem.
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I always enjoyed fighting in the dark when we had night. You could barely see the bandit and you had to keep an eye on your gauges.
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I find myself somewhat torn when it comes for a full-on nighttime.
Yes, I would like a more in-depth day/night cycle in the MA's, but
no I would not like a full on pitch-black combat environment.
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I always enjoyed fighting in the dark when we had night. You could barely see the bandit and you had to keep an eye on your gauges.
I enjoyed it as well but obviously in the minority.
Any scenarios ever been planned using an early dawn takeoff or Dusk final?
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I like it when it goes night in AVA.. makes it easier to sneak up on people. :devil
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I think the AVA goes dark sometimes. Fun for awhile.
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The only way night would be realistic is if we did not have the icons, icons defeat the purpose of night. If the icons would get removed it would be next to impossible to spot an aircraft even during the day, it would even be a lot harder than in real life.
-1
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If the icons would get removed it would be next to impossible to spot an aircraft even during the day, it would even be a lot harder than in real life
A monitor cannot replace the MkI eyeball, least not until we have much better resolutions with true 3d gaming platforms. I truly wish the AvA guys would concede this point.
Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.
Icons didn't kill nighttime in Aces High, the ability to boost gamma to simulate daylight, did.
edit: night time was also removed because few liked it.
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Here is something for the AvA guys. :devil
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff14/DeliriumP38/blind.jpg)
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Icons didn't kill nighttime in Aces High, the ability to boost gamma to simulate daylight, did.
Icons did not kill it, but the ability to boost gamma was not the only reason. Aces High (as well as any other sim) is a lot closer to a game than a simulator with night enabled. I don't think I would fly at night in AH because of how far from reality it gets. Unless you are flying over a city this is what you are supposed to see:
(http://img3.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-5/149/149625/245645/sony_ericsson_black_diamond_3-vi.gif)
Maybe a few lights in the distance and a moon if you get lucky.
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Why did he hold for 3 minutes to get visual? To verify friend/foe? I've seen other accounts of v-kills at night. This is but one example.
You can't shoot at what you don't see. That's why they had to hold course for 3 minutes, so they could visually spot the bandit before engaging.
Otherwise, the closing speed issue is potentially valid, depending on the interceptor in use. However, of the known types used in nightfighting (P-61, 110, 219, P-70, P-38, F6F, FW190, Ju-88/188/388, others) I don't see why this would be such a huge problem.
P-70 didn't have an issue with closing speed as it was usually too slow to intercept anything anyway, that's why it was pulled and considered a failure as a night fighter.
Anyway, closing speed was an issue because relative energy states was very difficult to gauge in the darkness and the pilot had to be very careful not to overshoot the bandit. As long as the pilot kept on eye on his speed, it wasn't a major issue but get lax just for a few seconds and it could quickly become a major one.
ack-ack
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Here is something for the AvA guys. :devil
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff14/DeliriumP38/blind.jpg)
:lol nice one delirium...the concession has been acknowledged...though not to the extremes some want to claim...if the graphics in ah was capable of rendering at least the full outline of an average fighter out to 2000 yards (just over a mile) would you feel better about the no icons?
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Anyway, closing speed was an issue because relative energy states was very difficult to gauge in the darkness and the pilot had to be very careful not to overshoot the bandit. As long as the pilot kept on eye on his speed, it wasn't a major issue but get lax just for a few seconds and it could quickly become a major one.
ack-ack
Right, but this directly contradicts Krusty's earlier assertion - one I found to be baseless.
Based on everything I'm hearing, the night arena died not so much because it was nightfighting per se but because of execution issues, e.g., gamma, lack of suitable aircraft, lack of suitable systems, bandwagon effect, etc.
I say to all this, perhaps if it were to be rethought/retooled it might yet be a success. Consider Delirium's prescription w/r graphics or what the addition of several dedicated nocturnal types might mean. It's out there - but probably not yet.
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Right, but this directly contradicts Krusty's earlier assertion - one I found to be baseless.
Based on everything I'm hearing, the night arena died not so much because it was nightfighting per se but because of execution issues, e.g., gamma, lack of suitable aircraft, lack of suitable systems, bandwagon effect, etc.
It died because the majority would log off and then come back in an hour when it was over.
I say to all this, perhaps if it were to be rethought/retooled it might yet be a success. Consider Delirium's prescription w/r graphics or what the addition of several dedicated nocturnal types might mean. It's out there - but probably not yet.
The problem is that night fighting was drastically different than daytime fighting, there weren't these swirling dogfights in the sky and that ultimately will keep people away.
ack-ack
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and it would make UFOs much easier to spot. :noid :noid
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It died because the majority would log off and then come back in an hour when it was over.
The problem is that night fighting was drastically different than daytime fighting, there weren't these swirling dogfights in the sky and that ultimately will keep people away.
ack-ack
I concede the cause of death as _likely_ an historical fact. I also concede the point that night fighting and daytime fighting are drastically different.
The point I do not concede is that night fighting could also be a compelling and immersive form of AHII gaming, given a properly conceived and executed effort. I also suspect that such an effort would produce its own weird breed of specialists.
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A "properly conceived and executed" effort would look nothing like AH. It would look more like Silent Hunter or other submarine warfare games. Intense waiting, darkness, not ever seeing your target until you fire, etc...
The entire infrastructure, from search lights to radar operators (GCI, etc) and all the looking-in-the-scope stuff to chase-the-blips and then looking, looking, looking, only to break off before you ram the target....
None of that is remotely similar to AH flying at night.
So no, your claim is wrong. It could not work because "properly conceived and executed" it won't be.
EDIT: And your plane list would be significantly smaller, and significantly slower (drag from radar antenna). No P-51s. No spits. No 190Ds.
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Here is something for the AvA guys. :devil
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff14/DeliriumP38/blind.jpg)
:rofl :rofl
shoosh it before I smack you with my can and set my seeing eye dog on ya
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A "properly conceived and executed" effort would look nothing like AH. It would look more like Silent Hunter or other submarine warfare games. Intense waiting, darkness, not ever seeing your target until you fire, etc...
The entire infrastructure, from search lights to radar operators (GCI, etc) and all the looking-in-the-scope stuff to chase-the-blips and then looking, looking, looking, only to break off before you ram the target....
None of that is remotely similar to AH flying at night.
So no, your claim is wrong. It could not work because "properly conceived and executed" it won't be.
EDIT: And your plane list would be significantly smaller, and significantly slower (drag from radar antenna). No P-51s. No spits. No 190Ds.
But you just illustrate the point. It's different. That doesn't mean it couldn't work. Indeed, the games you cite are fun, from what I hear.
Your other point may be more credible - i.e., that it wouldn't be properly executed in AH. To this I say, only if you try to make night fighting into a kind of darkened version of daytime AH. It's a different paradigm. AH is a logical place for the spinoff to occur because flight models still matter.
I consider some of the other issues you raise. What about flares and searchlights and the partial illumination they'd offer? That'd be somewhat thrilling, as would be the money-shot payoff of the inevitably fiery explosion as your He219's kanonen find a fuel tank on that fat Handley-Page.
Finally, the planelist size isn't what counts but rather the validity of it for the mission at hand.
That said, Godzilla never puts to sea in a canoe. Give me an He219.
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Night is seldom pitch black. Night in AH always had a moon.
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yeah if you set time to 01:00 in the offline practice its completely dark and yet you can still see the planes.with the moon of course. i think HTC should bring back night time. with the moon. and an ocasional completely pitch black part of the night.
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"Hey, let's have a night arena, that'd be fun!"
Just remember, at one point somebody said "Hey, let's have a WWI arena, that'd be fun!"
We've never gotten a WWI Arena. We're still waiting for it.
:bhead,
Wab
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We've never gotten a WWI Arena. We're still waiting for it.
:bhead,
Wab
Exactly. Likewise, just turnih the lights off on the MA and calling it "Night Arena" doth not a Night Arena qua Night Arena make.
Unfortunately, because apparently that's almost exactly what WAS done, that well is now poisoned and the capacity to imagine something better appears to be sadly lacking in the cohort.
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Exactly. Likewise, just turnih the lights off on the MA and calling it "Night Arena" doth not a Night Arena qua Night Arena make.
Unfortunately, because apparently that's almost exactly what WAS done, that well is now poisoned and the capacity to imagine something better appears to be sadly lacking in the cohort.
im curious, about this myself. i can have night time in the offline practice by setting my time to 01:00. and when i do that its not pitch black. there is a moon, so why not make it liek that. but only able to identify the con at 3.0k out insted of 6.0k? you will still be able to see them at night with the moon, and still shoot them down. to be honest i think HTC shoulda done something like WoW did. linking its day and night cycles with RL day and night cycles. but sadly with the introduction of the LWOH arena that cant be done.
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im curious, about this myself. i can have night time in the offline practice by setting my time to 01:00. and when i do that its not pitch black. there is a moon, so why not make it liek that. but only able to identify the con at 3.0k out insted of 6.0k? you will still be able to see them at night with the moon, and still shoot them down. to be honest i think HTC shoulda done something like WoW did. linking its day and night cycles with RL day and night cycles. but sadly with the introduction of the LWOH arena that cant be done.
Actually, I've seen accounts of night kills made without the use of radar - mos tnotably by the AVG in China. As pointed out earlier, night is NOT usually pitch black. Back when I was a kid, I used to think it fun to travel at high speed at night lights out (just like a bootlegger was the drunken fantasy). Try it some time, but not around me.
Of course, add that 3rd dimension and higher speeds and getting it right is more critical. In any case, I think there is an element of visual combat in most night fighting, but not all of it. That's part of what I'm saying here: this thing merits a lot of investigation and is not simply a matter of turning out the lights. Indeed, ambient light intensity would doubtless be a critical variable for the success of dedicated night craft. After all, they have an advantage when it's comletely dark yet are vulnerable illuminated.
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For those who weren't here when we did have night in AH ... bottom line ... IT SUCKED BALLS ... except for those who jacked their gamma up to make it daylight again. It is hard enough to engage in a decent dogfight when the arena simulates dusk never mind simulating night with moon light.
For the life of me, I cannot subscribe to the fact that the US/Germany/Japan sent out fighters at night to engage in active dog fighting. The term "Night Fighter" is, as far as I am concerned, a misnomer. Did these "Night Fighters" actually engage in dog fighting combat in the dark of night or were they simply "Night Hunters" equipped with air to air armament looking for unsuspecting bombers/cargo planes making their runs under the cover of darkness.
Ack Ack you know quite a bit about the P-38 fighter groups ... did any of them, that you know of, ever actively engage in night time dog fighting the enemy as a regular operation ?
Think about it people we had Spits, P-38s, P-47s, P-51s, F4Us, F6Fs, which were some of the most proficient dog fighters in WWII why in hells bells would we go ahead and develop "Night Fighters" with RADAR to find and engage the enemy ... answer ... because you can't "fight" at night in a dog fighting plane.
Now, if when the arena turned dark and all of a sudden all the "fighter jocks" either jump into bombers/C-47s and/or "Night Fighters", then what in the blazes would we need night time for?
You can't properly dog fight at night and it wouldn't take long for those who wished for it to wish it away once they get a real taste of what it is like.
I'll repeat it again ... IT SUCKED BALLS !!!
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Who cares about the dogfight or the kill. i would love to fly night fighters, and see night time bombing raids in the MA. kinda like what they did in WW2. it gives a good reason for night fighters and it gives a good reason to learn something about flying at night and having a squadie use the radar on the night fighter to guide you in. who are you to say it sucked? it may have sucked when you didnt have the night fighters, but i believe HTC should bring it back. but only when their ready to unleash the night fighters and have a proper radar control. that way, it wont suck.
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HTC has said that they will NOT bring it back, the reason was people left the arenas in droves because it SUCKED!
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HTC has said that they will NOT bring it back, the reason was people left the arenas in droves because it SUCKED!
the reason people left in droves was becuase they had no way of fighting at night. and to be honest i dont know why people didnt like it in the first place. i loved it.
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Who cares about the dogfight or the kill. i would love to fly night fighters, and see night time bombing raids in the MA. kinda like what they did in WW2. it gives a good reason for night fighters and it gives a good reason to learn something about flying at night and having a squadie use the radar on the night fighter to guide you in. who are you to say it sucked? it may have sucked when you didnt have the night fighters, but i believe HTC should bring it back. but only when their ready to unleash the night fighters and have a proper radar control. that way, it wont suck.
Your missing the point. Those who fly this game for dog fighting, which are much greater numbers than those who fly bombers, will not magically jump into bombers because it is now dark out.
So ... just imagine all those guys jumping into night fighters and looking for the far and few between bombers that may be flying around ... and if they encounter each other, they would actually be trying to dog fight in planes that were not really meant for dog fighting ... sounds like fun?
People who fly fighters primarily, want to fly fighters, and from a vast and past experience ... when darkness descended upon the arena ... they logged off ... waited an hour and then logged back in.
I can't see that changing just because there will be night fighters available because they really won't be fighting ... just basically hunting and killing bombers, if they can find any.
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the reason people left in droves was becuase they had no way of fighting at night. and to be honest i dont know why people didnt like it in the first place. i loved it.
Flying in a P-61 aimlessly looking for the occasional bomber to show up in your radar, in the cover of darkness, would be somewhere in the realm of watching grass grow.
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when i started playing somebody told me how to adjust the gamma so i could see better. that's when I found out in the so called night fighting, only the newbies were in the dark. everybody else adjusted the gamma so it could be daylight.
semp
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Your missing the point. Those who fly this game for dog fighting, which are much greater numbers than those who fly bombers, will not magically jump into bombers because it is now dark out.
So ... just imagine all those guys jumping into night fighters and looking for the far and few between bombers that may be flying around ... and if they encounter each other, they would actually be trying to dog fight in planes that were not really meant for dog fighting ... sounds like fun?
People who fly fighters primarily, want to fly fighters, and from a vast and past experience ... when darkness descended upon the arena ... they logged off ... waited an hour and then logged back in.
I can't see that changing just because there will be night fighters available because they really won't be fighting ... just basically hunting and killing bombers, if they can find any.
i think thats whats downplaying the addition of night fighters. people want to go 1v1, i dont get it. they have an arena for that sorta stuff. why cant you go there? the MA should be for those who want to have a bit of realism to the game. who like me love flying over dueling someone 1 on 1. who love aspect of teamwork and working together, insted of just picking a fight just for kills. this is just my opinion but seriously i believe its time for HTC to add more realism to the game.
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i think thats whats downplaying the addition of night fighters. people want to go 1v1, i dont get it. they have an arena for that sorta stuff. why cant you go there? the MA should be for those who want to have a bit of realism to the game. who like me love flying over dueling someone 1 on 1. who love aspect of teamwork and working together, insted of just picking a fight just for kills. this is just my opinion but seriously i believe its time for HTC to add more realism to the game.
Dueling, under the restrictions and rules of engagement, could never produce the same type of fight(s) you get in the MA. I don't need to go to the DA to get my fix, I find plenty of targets and situations in the MA that keep me going ... and to be honest, I suck at dueling, but can more than handle my own in the MA.
What "extra teamwork and working together" will be brought forth by bringing back night to the arenas?
I would bet the ranch that you would see what happened in the past ... a mass exodus from the arenas after the sun sets and there goes your "extra teamwork and working together" out the window.
Adding "realism" is a fine line to walk in a game such as this. Too much realism could drive people away faster than less realism ... it's a balancing act for sure.
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Dueling, under the restrictions and rules of engagement, could never produce the same type of fight(s) you get in the MA. I don't need to go to the DA to get my fix, I find plenty of targets and situations in the MA that keep me going ... and to be honest, I suck at dueling, but can more than handle my own in the MA.
What "extra teamwork and working together" will be brought forth by bringing back night to the arenas?
I would bet the ranch that you would see what happened in the past ... a mass exodus from the arenas after the sun sets and there goes your "extra teamwork and working together" out the window.
Adding "realism" is a fine line to walk in a game such as this. Too much realism could drive people away faster than less realism ... it's a balancing act for sure.
and how would you know? everyone i talked to says they would love to have the night time back. i even discussed night time bombing missions with some friends and squadies. and another thing, if those who want the P-61 they will find out its not that great as a daytime fighter compaired to the others in the game. frankly i think we all should shift to a day and night type of game regardless of what you "dogfighters" want i think everyone should get what they want even the small numbers who want HTC to do something for them insted of bending over for the majority of those who play the game. and i will stand by my opinion that HTC should bring back the night arena for those of us who do like the cover of darkness.
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and how would you know? everyone i talked to says they would love to have the night time back. i even discussed night time bombing missions with some friends and squadies. and another thing, if those who want the P-61 they will find out its not that great as a daytime fighter compaired to the others in the game. frankly i think we all should shift to a day and night type of game regardless of what you "dogfighters" want i think everyone should get what they want even the small numbers who want HTC to do something for them insted of bending over for the majority of those who play the game. and i will stand by my opinion that HTC should bring back the night arena for those of us who do like the cover of darkness.
:rofl ... and everyone that I have talked to says NO to night so we are even ... look at this thread ... the majority say NO.
Sadly, it is the majority (most amount of money) that usually wins. HT is not in the business of driving more players away from the game to appease a few. There are mouths to feed, mortgages, and car payments to make.
If night were to come back, personally I wouldn't quit, but I surely would log off for an hour until the sun was back up. Some may not be so understanding and quit and that's the bottom line from where I sit.
And what is with the "dog fighters" crap ... I can guarantee you that I have participated in more base captures than you can even imagine. I play all aspects of the game, and after more than 9 years playing this game, there is one aspect that I enjoy more than the other and that is dog fighting but that isn't why I dislike night.
YOU CAN'T SEE PROPERLY AT NIGHT AND THE MAJORITY OF WWII PLANES WERE NOT MADE FOR NIGHT OPERATIONS.
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Actually, I've seen accounts of night kills made without the use of radar - mos tnotably by the AVG in China.
Early nightfighters were like this as this type of fighting was still in its infancy when war broke out. The Japanese for the most part didn't use radar on their nightfighters at all during the war.
ack-ack
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Ack Ack you know quite a bit about the P-38 fighter groups ... did any of them, that you know of, ever actively engage in night time dog fighting the enemy as a regular operation ?
The only P-38 squadron dedicated for night fighting was 418th Night Fighter Squadron flying the P-38M but didn't enter into active service until the war was over. As far as I can tell, the P-38M never saw any action at all.
ack-ack
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everyone i talked to says they would love to have the night time back.
Only the ones that never flew when we had night time I'm sure would love to have it back. Again, when night time came around, the arena would drop from 500+ to probably a little over 100 until dawn broke and then the arena would fill up again.
ack-ack
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Icons did not kill it, but the ability to boost gamma was not the only reason. Aces High (as well as any other sim) is a lot closer to a game than a simulator with night enabled. I don't think I would fly at night in AH because of how far from reality it gets. Unless you are flying over a city this is what you are supposed to see:
(http://img3.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-5/149/149625/245645/sony_ericsson_black_diamond_3-vi.gif)
Maybe a few lights in the distance and a moon if you get lucky.
If yours or anyone elses looked like this then you didnt have your monitor calibrated correctly. Thats always been the problem. People insisting their monitors were set up right when they weren't.
On a properly calibrated monitor. night time should look like night with a harvest moon. Damn near light enough to read by and not all that much darker then dawn/dusk is now. Certainly light enough to fight by.
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:rofl ... and everyone that I have talked to says NO to night so we are even ... look at this thread ... the majority say NO.
Sadly, it is the majority (most amount of money) that usually wins. HT is not in the business of driving more players away from the game to appease a few. There are mouths to feed, mortgages, and car payments to make.
If night were to come back, personally I wouldn't quit, but I surely would log off for an hour until the sun was back up. Some may not be so understanding and quit and that's the bottom line from where I sit.
And what is with the "dog fighters" crap ... I can guarantee you that I have participated in more base captures than you can even imagine. I play all aspects of the game, and after more than 9 years playing this game, there is one aspect that I enjoy more than the other and that is dog fighting but that isn't why I dislike night.
YOU CAN'T SEE PROPERLY AT NIGHT AND THE MAJORITY OF WWII PLANES WERE NOT MADE FOR NIGHT OPERATIONS.
i dont see why you cant see anyone. with the moon out you can still see the other guy. granted i never really flew fighter mission at night back then but i could still see and intercepter very well beyond 6.0k. so i dont see how you couldnt, and i have a crappy arse monitor from 2001 made by dell.
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It doesn't matter whether or not you could see, heck everyone had a neon icon near their plane! The point is most people left the arena when it turned to night.Were not talking 51% here, more like 80-90. Even if you stuck around it was no fun because there was almost nobody to fight against.
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No. Night fighting is not the same as just flying a plane at night. Most "night fighters" in real life can only catch bombers if the NF is running full power and the bomber is cruising. On top of that the entire mechanic of night fighting, from taking off, navigating in pitch black, following radio leads and contacts you can't see ("take course xxx here, 10 miles out", and "visual range," and "he's behind you now" etc) it's not even remotely comparable to flying AH at "night"
And there's no point in having an arena. Only people flying at night are the ones that don't want to be engaged. HT said most of the server logged off every time the server cycled to "night time" so they removed it. They have the actual logs and know what was happening. They made the right choice.
I believe moST night fighter/interceptor have a crew of two or more. something that will be hard to do on AH.
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It doesn't matter whether or not you could see, heck everyone had a neon icon near their plane! The point is most people left the arena when it turned to night.Were not talking 51% here, more like 80-90. Even if you stuck around it was no fun because there was almost nobody to fight against.
and i believe that was atributed to the fact that those 80-90% didnt want to dogfight at night even though they could still see and engage the enemy to do "turn fights", and "BnZ" attacks. like i said i just dont see why its such a bad thing. maybe with some fixes here and there and night fighters it would be different.
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and i believe that was atributed to the fact that those 80-90% didnt want to dogfight at night even though they could still see and engage the enemy to do "turn fights", and "BnZ" attacks. like i said i just dont see why its such a bad thing. maybe with some fixes here and there and night fighters it would be different.
And you would be wrong but then you weren't playing back then so it's understandable why you have no clue.
ack-ack
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Your missing the point. Those who fly this game for dog fighting, which are much greater numbers than those who fly bombers, will not magically jump into bombers because it is now dark out.
People who fly fighters primarily, want to fly fighters, and from a vast and past experience ... when darkness descended upon the arena ... they logged off ... waited an hour and then logged back in.
I can't see that changing just because there will be night fighters available because they really won't be fighting ... just basically hunting and killing bombers, if they can find any.
Sure, but consider the possibility that there might be another group who enjoy night fighting for wha tit is - an entirely different thing. It's kind of like tennis. You've got dubs players and singles players. Occasionally, you have true dual-role players, but it's rare. Both the dubs and singles specialist will claim to love the sport but they're really talking about two different things.
I think you and Fugi are both trapped in the paradigm of night arena as lights-out MA, as the poorly-executed prior version apparently was. To my mind, such a thing would, per Fugi, SUCK BALLS.
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Assuming we get H2H arenas again you'll be able to set them up however you like. Windy no icon nights! :D
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And you would be wrong but then you weren't playing back then so it's understandable why you have no clue.
ack-ack
So, since you were playing back then, entertain me with a couple of answers.
1. what night fighter did you fly?
2. what was your target? A stream of RAF bombers or were you countering enemy night-fighters?
3. Who was your GIB? Was he proficient in the use of the Dopple Reiter?
4. What were the icon rules?
5. How much did the ambient light intensity vary?
6. If the answer to 5. is of significance, did you ever find it possible to dogfight at night?
7. If anser to 6 is yes, what kind of ACMs were most useful in night fighter vs. night fighter combat?
8. What was your favorite night fighter and why?
The only thing that's "wrong" here is claiming Thing A, because Thing A once existed, is somehow Thing B, even though Thing B isn't even a well-defined concept yet. I suspect, if you wanted to, you could probably help to define a concept for a night arena that actually WOULD be interesting. Screw "same as, only dark". I buy that it SUCKED.
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i dont see why you cant see anyone. with the moon out you can still see the other guy. granted i never really flew fighter mission at night back then but i could still see and intercepter very well beyond 6.0k. so i dont see how you couldnt, and i have a crappy arse monitor from 2001 made by dell.
I flew AH night time from 2002 until they got rid of it, so I know all too well what it offered. I never said I couldn't see anything, it was just hard to see. There was a significant loss of depth perception in regards to where you were altitude-wise and where the ground/ocean was ... even with the moon lit night. Without the glaring neon icons, you would have totally lost your target after the merge and to re-acquire after the merge would be brutal.
Even with the icons, it was very hard to see your opponents wings and try to react to its movements. This is probably the main reason why there really was never and true night time dog fighting in WWII. The high percentage of loss of man and machine was probably the impetus.
I applaud your gumption concerning this, but I don't see it happening unless HT makes some significant changes to "night" and is also able to prevent people pumping up the gamma on their monitors to make night into day.
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1. what night fighter did you fly?
Mossie
2. what was your target? A stream of RAF bombers or were you countering enemy night-fighters?
Random bombers that where around when night came and still wanted to drop on our bases.
3. Who was your GIB? Was he proficient in the use of the Dopple Reiter?
:rolleyes:
4. What were the icon rules?
Normal MA icon rules. In sea event the range was 3k and it was very difficult to find enemy unless there was a radar track.
5. How much did the ambient light intensity vary?
It did not vary once the night came, it was quite short time, however. What it enabled was to make strategic moves without the enemy seeing. But MA is all about furballing anyway so that is of no interest...
6. If the answer to 5. is of significance, did you ever find it possible to dogfight at night?
Dogfighting was very difficult and engaging the bombers was rather difficult too, but despite that, fun -IMO that is.
7. If anser to 6 is yes, what kind of ACMs were most useful in night fighter vs. night fighter combat?
IRL night fighters were mainly aimed at bombers, not against other fighters, however if it was F vs F, normal ACM was applied, although hitting something was difficult.
8. What was your favorite night fighter and why?
Mossie, because.
;)
-C+
PS. I know people left the arena when night time came and I have never understood why, thus I wished them good riddance. However I did not observe a huge loss in numbers. We once had a SEA event where we chased bombers with 110s and it was lots of fun, but we did not have huge numbers there so I guess YMMV.
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I like seeing a renewed effort here. I think my last go at this finally got Dale (HiTech) to post. :) It was my wish to also have an entire arena. But like many have said, it's like eating vegetables....some folks would rather die! :)
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Perhaps consider a dedicated Night Arena with a regular and plentiful supply of AI bombers (though players could fly bombers too) since night bomber missions would be a yawn... Mossie pathfinder missions might be interesting, if a bomber stream actually depended on you getting your incendiaries on the right target. I wonder how you'd code that...
Search lights could also be interesting. Long ago I met a Lanc front turret gunner, who apparently at least once got caught in the light. He said the defensive action was to dive into the light, front gunner firing at it (and he re-enacted that with grim intensity, like he was re-living being terrified out of his mind) and then the bomber pulls out, hopefully breaking from the searchlight's beam.
Best.
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EDIT: Going back to night in the MA /EDIT
Dogfighting wasn't done at night. Ever. Very little flying was done at night. It was more dangerous for the pilot and the plane than it was for the enemy. With RAF and LW night bombing being an exception to the general rule, the rule was "fair weather flying only"
Why do you think June 6th has such importance? It was the first day in weeks with clear weather to fly over the channel.
There were long periods of times, weeks or more, where Soviet or US planes could not and did not take off in one theater or another due to rain, snow, or what-have-you.
Forget about night.
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Well for me despite what anyone else says. i think they should bring it back. and plus why cant you guys wait an hour for the sun to come back up, its not like its gonna last an entire full RL night. so i think an hour isnt o bad. plus as i said before if all you wanna do is furball and make no contribute to the war effort to try and win then goto the DA.
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plus as i said before if all you wanna do is furball and make no contribute to the war effort to try and win then goto the DA.
Listen, if you want to rally support for bringing night back the MA arenas ... fine, knock yourself out, but don't for second think that people who could give a rats arse who wins the war are any less as valuable as a customer as those who want to win the war(s).
The "win the war" objective is in place to promote conflict ... nothing more, nothing less. Conflict in this game comes in many flavors and the conflicts to win the war are not the only ones that the MA arenas offer ... so lay off the "go to the DA" crap if you don't want to participate in the "war effort".
I pay my 14.95 a month just like everyone else and if all I could do was fight in the DA or have to participate in every base taking effort, the 14.95 a month would end for me and I am sure a lot of other people.
Nobody really wins the "war", the map resets and it starts all over again, to ... wait for it ... promote conflict.
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I'm just saying you dont have to do that in the MA. i think that if they put the ability to win the war into the game then that should be done. making it more realistic should also be implamented as well such as night time. if all else HTC should atleast give us what we want insted of bending over for the majority. we pay out 14.95 as well and we should get something that makes it fun for us and not just fun for the majority.
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I'm just saying you dont have to do that in the MA. i think that if they put the ability to win the war into the game then that should be done. making it more realistic should also be implamented as well such as night time. if all else HTC should atleast give us what we want insted of bending over for the majority. we pay out 14.95 as well and we should get something that makes it fun for us and not just fun for the majority.
For simplicities sake ...
Let's say you had a game and the total population of players was 100 and each paid $10/month to play.
80 players dislike night and if it's implemented, they will quit.
20 players love night and if it's not implemented, they will quit.
Who are you going to appease? ... the majority or the minority? ... do you want the $800/month or the $200/month?
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For simplicities sake ...
Let's say you had a game and the total population of players was 100 and each paid $10/month to play.
80 players dislike night and if it's implemented, they will quit.
20 players love night and if it's not implemented, they will quit.
Who are you going to appease? ... the majority or the minority? ... do you want the $800/month or the $200/month?
I just dont get why you guys cant just wait for sunrise and let the minority have the fun that they want aswell. the only way i see this working out for all is that they make timezones for the MA that way one side is day time amd one side is night time and it moves around insted of the whole arena going dark. that way you can still pick your fights in the light and those who love flying at night get what we want, but idk how that can be done. another this is i dont see why you guys would quit over night time that lasts an hour.
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For simplicities sake ...
Let's say you had a game and the total population of players was 100 and each paid $10/month to play.
80 players dislike night and if it's implemented, they will quit.
20 players love night and if it's not implemented, they will quit.
Who are you going to appease? ... the majority or the minority? ... do you want the $800/month or the $200/month?
And the incremental cost of a night arena, by which you'd make everyone happy and perhaps draw addtional players, is how much?
Did you consider day/night frame in scenarios, back to back?
I never proposed either/or w/r the MA.
Indeed, here's the grand(iose) vision: all phases, all weapons, all theaters, TOTAL WWII .
Any single increment (for example, adding the Hummel SPA) will draw how many? Now, how many would the total package draw?
And how much is that incrmental non-brick and mortar capacity again? See, if HTC builds it like he knows it should be built, I'm convinced they will come. If he builds it only for the people he's already got, how much growth can he expect?
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And the incremental cost of a night arena, by which you'd make everyone happy and perhaps draw addtional players, is how much?
Did you consider day/night frame in scenarios, back to back?
I never proposed either/or w/r the MA.
Indeed, here's the grand(iose) vision: all phases, all weapons, all theaters, TOTAL WWII .
Any single increment (for example, adding the Hummel SPA) will draw how many? Now, how many would the total package draw?
And how much is that incrmental non-brick and mortar capacity again? See, if HTC builds it like he knows it should be built, I'm convinced they will come. If he builds it only for the people he's already got, how much growth can he expect?
i would think alot of growth. but as i said before i dont get why you guys would leave just becuase you cant pick a fight for an hour. Oh i cant fight someone in my plucky little spit 16, Oh i cant fight someone for an hour man my rank is gonna drop. well ya know tough.
i dont play this game for kills, so you wont understand this when i say i play this game because i love flying. and i loved flying at night back when we had it.and just because you cant get kills and have your name in lights dosnt mean the minority that wants something should have to go without.
and yes we should have an arena that has night time in it. if anything HTC should put this to a vote. and if the majority dosnt want night time then that will show in the number of votes. and if the majority wants night time back then you know whos paying HTCs bills
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I just dont get why you guys cant just wait for sunrise and let the minority have the fun that they want aswell. the only way i see this working out for all is that they make timezones for the MA that way one side is day time amd one side is night time and it moves around insted of the whole arena going dark. that way you can still pick your fights in the light and those who love flying at night get what we want, but idk how that can be done. another this is i dont see why you guys would quit over night time that lasts an hour.
I said it wouldn't cause me to quit and I would log off for the hour or so ... but it might cause others to quit.
Are you or any that want night going to quit if you don't get it ? If not, then HT wins with no night.
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I said it wouldn't cause me to quit and I would log off for the hour or so ... but it might cause others to quit.
Are you or any that want night going to quit if you don't get it ? If not, then HT wins with no night.
i wont quit but i just think they need to make it to where eveyone gets what they want. and i dont get why you would leave for an hour just becuase you cant fight. and quiting just because you cant get a fight going for an hour is kinda low and stupid. i mean cmon.
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i would think alot of growth. but as i said before i dont get why you guys would leave just becuase you cant pick a fight for an hour. Oh i cant fight someone in my plucky little spit 16, Oh i cant fight someone for an hour man my rank is gonna drop. well ya know tough.
i dont play this game for kills, so you wont understand this when i say i play this game because i love flying. and i loved flying at night back when we had it.and just because you cant get kills and have your name in lights dosnt mean the minority that wants something should have to go without.
and yes we should have an arena that has night time in it. if anything HTC should put this to a vote. and if the majority dosnt want night time then that will show in the number of votes. and if the majority wants night time back then you know whos paying HTCs bills
Wow ... you have a habit of taking things to an ugly level. I don't want night, I don't fly spit16s, I don't care about getting my name in lights, and I could give a rats arse about rank. Why must those who don't like night have to fit into your ridiculous definition of demeaning categories? Bad debating tactics for sure.
I fly this game to compete against other flyers. The "kill" is the end game of the game that I play and if night causes the amount of chances that I have to do that ... I don't want it, and so do a lot of other people.
There was many a thread many moons ago about night and that was what caused night to go away, so I think the majority already spoke. HTC hasn't lost any people because there is no night so if it ain't broke ... don't fix it.
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i wont quit but i just think they need to make it to where eveyone gets what they want. and i dont get why you would leave for an hour just becuase you cant fight. and quiting just because you cant get a fight going for an hour is kinda low and stupid. i mean cmon.
What about the people who only have about an hour a day to play the game? What fun for them to login and find the lights out.
I would leave for the hour because flying and fighting at night ... SUCKS BALLS ... don't know how to better explain it.
One more time ... having night WOULD NOT CAUSE ME TO QUIT ... so you cmon.
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What about the people who only have about an hour a day to play the game? What fun for them to login and find the lights out.
I would leave for the hour because flying and fighting at night ... SUCKS BALLS ... don't know how to better explain it.
One more time ... having night WOULD NOT CAUSE ME TO QUIT ... so you cmon.
well i dont see why that said person who has only and hour to play cant goto the blue arena if orange is night and blue is day. people are complaining about arena caps. maybe that might fix it cuasing people to go into the lower population arena if the maxed out arena is night. and i know you wont quit the game i get it. but as i keep saying its pointless to quit a game just becuase its night time for an hour. that said quiter has the entire day to play i dont see why or how the arena going to night would cuase him to quit.
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You can read the info posted "back then" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,227946.msg2764180.html#msg2764180), it's only 10 pages long, but this is the post that pretty much finished it.
New arena just for night time, is not going to happen.
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You can read the info posted "back then" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,227946.msg2764180.html#msg2764180), it's only 10 pages long, but this is the post that pretty much finished it.
Yeah, but that was 2008. Moore's law probably impacts HTC's cost structure.
I'll concede the points about switching the MA over - I don't think it makes a lot of sense. However, if the WWI arena was worthwhile (I doubt it is in a variable sense, though I've been told it was in the damage model developmental impact to the entire offering) well, bad example...
The overall point is this: more is better and it's not going to succeed as either/or but it might well succeed as "and". Consider, as an analog, indirect-fire ground weapons. Nobody's going to be hot on the idea of getting them if it supplants GV direct-fire weapons. OTOH, if they come along "in addition to" it's going to rock.
Use your imagination and envision a much broader offering than what we now have. Imagine the ground war gamers populating a real war arena, over which fighter pilots get to fly and fight. How could this be bad if HTC maintains the integrity of the fms?
See, there's this thing called a bandwagon effect with MMOGs. The more the merrier - in a big and nonlinear way. And when you reckon that the development of a relatively lame and dumb (though beautifully so, here) GV is a more efficient offering in terms of players drawn per unit development (if you can reach that critical bandwagon level) than our fighters, you might see where I'm going. We need meat, and that applies both in-game and to fuel faster/higher volume expansion. The top of the food chain would naturally benefit more from this.
But who knows. HT might just be enjoying the narrower niche. I have no idea what his vision is. I think you could pump this turkey for a broader, but still highly integral, WWII all-phase niche, drive greater volume in the course of doing so, and be able to offer a broader range of cool things to do. Fug, you've been here much longer than I but, my impression, given the media involved, is that this thing is moving at a glacial pace, growthwise. That said, I love and am really grateful for the game - and would love to see more involved. I'd love to see a giant online virtually violent party going CONSTANTLY and with historically accurate vehicle models. Admittedly, night arena is probably NOT the first step in a chain of events that might lead to such an outcome -but it might be one of 'em.
Probably biggest/best first bang for the buck is rounding out the historical daylight set.
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i wonder if HTC puts this to a vote in the game. the outcome would be different then what the majority say they want.
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We had this before in the game and the players voted by logging off.
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We had this before in the game and the players voted by logging off.
how long ago did they take the night time out of the game? it might have a different effect. especialy if we get night fighters.
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We had this before in the game and the players voted by logging off.
It wasn't my favorite.
Maybe in a TOD or scenario context where there can be a specific purpose and a guarnteed bomber presence to hunt.
It just didn't seem to work well in the MA.
If they DID try and use night, they should code it so that color depth is reduced during night not just intensity. That way cranking up the gamma wouldn't help much.
Wab
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I'm givin' a thumbs-down on the "night' stuff. Hell, it's bad enough we've got to fly in
semi-darkness so often. While realistic, it cuts down on the enjoyment factor
when you're trying to line up on a plane on the deck and you can't see for the dark water and
lack of light.
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I'm givin' a thumbs-down on the "night' stuff. Hell, it's bad enough we've got to fly in
semi-darkness so often. While realistic, it cuts down on the enjoyment factor
when you're trying to line up on a plane on the deck and you can't see for the dark water and
lack of light.
you can still dogfight in that. wow i mean cmon even i can still see a con just above to water in that so call "night"