Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on August 25, 2011, 09:05:58 PM
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http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/Stuka%20Pilot%20-%20Hans%20Ulrich%20Rudel.pdf
you can read the full book in this link.
I still do not think Rudel was human. The adversity this guy had to overcome from his first flights through 5 years of war mostly in antiquated ju87s...
makes me hope for a ju87g after reading this stuff. though the il2 is just as fun no doubt.
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Yeah. I was VERY impressed when I read that book in paperback form several years back. I was astonished to learn that many German officers really believed America would re-equip surviving German military groups and invite them to join us in an extra chapter of the war, in which we would both turn against Russia.
And I agree with you that Rudel's survival and determination went far beyond the normal bounds of human endurance. Superman indeed!
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Will take a look, thanks for posting.
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http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/Stuka%20Pilot%20-%20Hans%20Ulrich%20Rudel.pdf
you can read the full book in this link.
I still do not think Rudel was human. The adversity this guy had to overcome from his first flights through 5 years of war mostly in antiquated ju87s...
makes me hope for a ju87g after reading this stuff. though the il2 is just as fun no doubt.
Like some other memoirs, this one has to be taken with some skepticism.
Plus, the guy was such an unadulterated, unrepentant Nazi that I just sit back in shock whenever I read that book.
- oldman.
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Thanks for posting.......
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Plus, the guy was such an unadulterated, unrepentant Nazi that I just sit back in shock whenever I read that book.
I cringe whenever I see Rudel presented as a "hero" and people speak of his his achievements in awe. He was a true Nazi all of his life and very active in neo-nazi circles after the war.
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"Only he is lost who gives himself up for lost"
The interest of the book is not politics nor the writers loyalty to what beliefs and creeds he was raised to accept as patriotic. In fact I fear his same zeal to not question his own governments true nature and intentions is rampant in our current society in many nations.
The compelling part that makes up 95% of the 100 pages of this short read draw you right into the grind up from fledgling flyer to seasoned combat pilot. the loss of old friends. the constant flying in bad weather with no rest in mud, snow and undesirable conditions. The shear determination in the face of so much adversity to just not get killed is so far beyond the odds of posibility of simply not being dead... and yet he survived.
Rudel exhibited an amount of survivability and bravery that is mind boggling.
7 times he landed behind enemy lines to pick up his downed aircrews. The 7th time stuck in the mud they set off on foot far behind enemy lines to their own lines... he is the only one who makes it back.
he was shot down 32 times. there are not cats in the world with the amount of luck or skill he had over 5 years that not till the very end of the war did he lose a leg... and still keep flying.
Hartman was quite an amazing pilot but after learning more about Rudel's exploits... (He on occasion blew up il2s and fighters with 37mm btw)
If even half of it is true and I tend to believe that the majority of it is. This guy was the premier BadArse of the second world war.
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Like some other memoirs, this one has to be taken with some skepticism.
Plus, the guy was such an unadulterated, unrepentant Nazi that I just sit back in shock whenever I read that book.
- oldman.
I'm with Oldman on this one. Book has been on the shelf for a lot of years.
In the 404th FG history there are photos of Rudel and some of his crew after they fled to the west and landed at the 404th airfield. Some of the officers took Rudel and his officers into the ops office and prepared a meal for them. A pilot who had just returned from being a POW walked in, saw it and grabbed the food and threw it out the window. He was not impressed with Rudel or his buddies.
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some guy who never met him throws the food someone else made out the window because he was mistreated by someone else therefore we must ignore the compelling part of rudel? the determination to not let your friends down and the skill and strength to avoid being dead.
I feel sorry that you do not see beyond your own clouded vision to the value of the quote by which this person lived by and how completely they took it to extreme levels not to give up in spite of everything.
"Only he is lost who gives himself up for lost"
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some guy who never met him throws the food someone else made out the window because he was mistreated by someone else therefore we must ignore the compelling part of rudel? the determination to not let your friends down and the skill and strength to avoid being dead.
I feel sorry that you do not see beyond your own clouded vision to the value of the quote by which this person lived by and how completely they took it to extreme levels not to give up in spite of everything.
"Only he is lost who gives himself up for lost"
Now a lifetime devoted nazi (no, not just a "patriot"), which did consciously and willingly did fight FOR everything Nazism stood for all of his life, and thus was and still is an icon of neo-nazis, is being presented as someone to look up at?
Disgusting.
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some guy who never met him throws the food someone else made out the window because he was mistreated by someone else therefore we must ignore the compelling part of rudel? the determination to not let your friends down and the skill and strength to avoid being dead.
I feel sorry that you do not see beyond your own clouded vision to the value of the quote by which this person lived by and how completely they took it to extreme levels not to give up in spite of everything.
"Only he is lost who gives himself up for lost"
As mentioned I've had the book for many years. Interesting? yeah but I never saw fit to read it twice. Sure doesn't mean I have to respect what the man stood for nor does it mean I have to see him for anything more then he was. To imply he was blind to what went on around him and what he fought for, in particular in Russia would be lying. That he flew to the West to surrender speaks volumes to his awareness of it.
In terms of compelling stories of WW2, his is way down my list
In terms of clouded visions, I'll take mine over yours :)
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your missing it.
I will say hands down rudel was the best pilot of the war.
you can wrap this in politics but it does not change this.
I care nothing for this mans politics or yours.
It's the operational level flying that interests me.
now gtfo and go to the oclub with yoru politics
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your missing it.
I will say hands down rudel was the best pilot of the war.
you can wrap this in politics but it does not change this.
I care nothing for this mans politics or yours.
It's the operational level flying that interests me.
now gtfo and go to the oclub with yoru politics
And to designate any pilot as the best pilot of the war is just silly. I'm glad he interests you. We'll have to agree to disagree on Rudel
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I stated that I found his book fascinating as it detailed operational flying over 5 yrs from first flights to the last.
I have had to struggle in trying to land a good flying job and I found Rudel's story and quote "Only he is lost who gives himself up for lost" a bit of an inspiration to keep going in spite of everything.
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I stated that I found his book fascinating as it detailed operational flying over 5 yrs from first flights to the last.
I have had to struggle in trying to land a good flying job and I found Rudel's story and quote "Only he is lost who gives himself up for lost" a bit of an inspiration to keep going in spite of everything.
I'm sure we could go back and forth on it forever Fester. I'm glad the quote offers you some inspiration. I prefer 'they can't kick me off the planet so I might as well keep going"
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so there was another that landed this many times under fire and picked up downed air crews?
"Stukas approaching from the West-calling all Red Falcons: you are to attack the Stukas immediately, there are about
twenty-in front a single Stuka with two long bars-it is sure to be Squadron-Leader Rudel's squadron, the one that always
knocks out our tanks. Calling all Red Falcons and A.A. batteries: you are to shoot down the Stuka with the long bars"
Flg./Off. Markwardt gives me a rough translation while we are in the air. Fickel says with a laugh:
"If they aim at No. 1 you can bet they'll hit No. 2"
He generally flies as my No. 2 and therefore speaks from experience.
Ahead of us and below us Ivans with motor vehicles, artillery and other stuff on a road between isolated woods. The
heavy flak is putting up a good show, the Red Falcons are already there, Aircobras attack us; I give the order to attack. A
part of the formation dives onto the trucks and lorries, a smaller section onto the A.A. batteries, all maneuvering
frantically.
The fighters now think their opportunity has come. Flak clouds hang close to our aircraft. Shortly before he
goes into a dive Fig./Off. Fickel gets a direct hit in his wing; he jettisons his bombs and flies off in the direction from
which we have come. His aircraft is on fire. We have dropped our bombs and come out of our dive. I gain height to see
where Fickel has got to. He makes a landing in the middle of quite unsuitable country, furrowed with ditches and full of
potholes, tree stumps and other obstacles. His aircraft skips over two ditches like a rampageous he-goat; it is a miracle that
he has not pancaked long ago. Now he and his gunner clamber out. The situation is bad: cavalry, followed by tanks, are
already converging on his aircraft from the woods, naturally intent on capturing the crew. The Aircobras are now
attacking us furiously from above.
I call out: "Someone must land at once. You know I am no longer allowed to."
I have a horrible feeling, because I have been expressly forbidden to land and it goes against the grain to consciously
disobey orders. We are still banking low above the fallen aircraft; Fickel and Bartsch down there can surely not imagine
that anyone can land safely under the circumstances. The Soviets are gradually closing in and still no one sets about
landing; outmaneuvering the fighters makes full demands on every crew's attention. The decision to land myself in spite
of everything is a hard one to make, but as I see it, if I do not act now my comrades are lost. If it is at all possible for
anyone to rescue them, I have the best chance of anybody. To disobey an order is, I know, unforgivable, but the
determination to save my comrades is stronger than my sense of duty.
I have forgotten everything else, the consequences
of my action, everything. I must bring it off. I give my orders:
"7 Flight: you are to attack cavalry and infantry at low level.
8 Flight: you are to circle at moderate height to cover Fickel and me.
9 Flight: you are to stay up and divert fighters from this intended maneuver. If fighters dive, then 9 Flight is to attack them
from above."
I fly very low over the scene of the forced landing and select a patch of ground which may serve, with a bit of luck, to
land on. Slowly I open the throttle; now we are over the second ditch. Throttle back, a terrific jolt, for an instant my tail is
in the air, then I come to a stop. Fickel and Bartsch run for their lives. They are quickly alongside. Ivan's bullets have so
far not hit anything that matters. Both are in behind, I open the throttle. I am seething with excitement. Can I make it?
Will my aircraft become airborne before it hits an obstacle on the ground and is smashed to pieces? Now comes a ditch. I
snatch up the aircraft, clear it, and again my wheels lightly bump the ground. Then she stays up. Slowly the tension eases.
The squadron closes up and we get home without loss.
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Gonna sound off the wall philosophical, but what is nazism? It's nothing but a speck of miserable stupidity in the grand scheme of things - in a cosmic, dozen+ billion year perspective.
If some guy who also happened to espouse that pathetically wretched M.O. otherwise shines thru as an examplary.. pilot, or tactical leader, or whatever, that baby (ahem) can't be thrown out with the bath water without ironically paralleling to that other nazi hallmark - burning books. Burning that boundless richness - because as good as unlimited in variety - of human character that furnishes the whole landscape of ~100,000,000,000 humans who've lived and died over millenia each with their more or less original peculiarities and quirks... That's not right either.
Either? Either as in neither that nor idolizing "a nazi". Which Fester didn't do. The nazi isn't the topic. Agree or disagree that there's some discrete part of Rudel the airman that's remarkable, but turning your nose up at it isn't proper dispassionate objectivity.
I'm probably not going to check this topic again, so a pre emptive reply - you don't have to admire or "convert" yourself to living a barbarian life of cruelty if you happen to be mesmerized by the animal nature of, say, a cheetah. That doesn't inherently make you a blood thirsty, inhumanely cruel, carnivorous serial killer.
What Rudel did well was the airmanship, etc. Which "the other side" also partook in and produced other eminent instances of in the form of pilots like Yeager etc. Some of it was motivated by nazism in Rudel's case? That particular aspect isn't what Fester's on about.
If I understand him right. YMMV
TIOLI, IANAP, WLF
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No one is debating he was a good or even exceptional pilot. As I said, I'm glad that interests Fester and that he found inspiration in Rudel's words.
I find that I can't separate the words from the man.
In terms of guys dropping in to pick up downed pilots, it happened on both sides. Some times it worked, some times it didn't.
In terms of the best pilot, there is no answer. Put everyone in the same plane on the same mission after having the same training and have them fly over and over until the last man is standing. Even then you can predict mechanical break downs, and any other unpredictable events.
So it goes.
Hows the 410 project coming moot?
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Well I thought this book interesting as well and I also found Rudel's adoration of Hitler quite amusing (comparing his comments to those of Manstein's on Hitler's character). I think Rudel was an excellent soldier in technical sense but as a person he was not popular and I understand he was not liked even among his own pilots because he often ordered them to do the impossible often with fatal consequences.
And yes he was an excellent pilot too.
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"I was astonished to learn that many German officers really believed America would re-equip surviving German military groups and invite them to join us in an extra chapter of the war, in which we would both turn against Russia."
Many Nazis or those who joined them fought for political reasons against communism so that kind of thought was not uncommon. It is curious how Russia turned into an enemy so fast after the war for western powers that is almost seems like a political and strategic miscalculation to help Russia in the first place in form of war material deliveries which left them very strong after the war ended and the ideological rivalry started to kick in. But if western powers had attacked when Russia was losing there was a danger of Russo German armistice by Russian initiative for them to gain breath and that German war machine would have pushed the Allies off the European continent, and after that nothing would have stopped them. Of course with strong Russia the task for Allies to regain France and rest of western Europe was very much easier even if it was predicted that it would create a new equilibrium of power in the world which I understand was something that USA did not object to, once they were drawn into war. But that may be just blabberings of conspiracy theorists, although Eisenhower may have indirectly warned about that in his farewell speech (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm). Sry for OT.
-C+
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Hows the 410 project coming moot?
I only finished moving in yesterday. Got some stuff left to do over next few days (clean & repaint new place, etc) and after that I can get back to normal. Last four days I literally didn't see pass, just constantly busy, no time for anything.
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Naive realism has been refuted by philosophers the last 2500 years, perhaps more. The whole sphere of politics is saturated with naive realism, it is a prerequisite for politics to exist at all. When I read Rudel he seem very much human to me. Exceptional yes, but human, a man who came to terms with and accepted his own mortality.
"Only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."
- Franklin D. Roosevelt
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7 times he landed behind enemy lines to pick up his downed aircrews. The 7th time stuck in the mud they set off on foot far behind enemy lines to their own lines... he is the only one who makes it back.
This is why I suggested that his account has to be taken with some skepticism. Rudel's book is full of stories of his amazing feats, yet many of them haven't been, or can't be, confirmed through other sources. His tale of knocking the guns out of the hands of his captors, outrunning the Russian army, racing over fields, swimming through bone-chilling rivers and so on, could well be true, but you do wish that someone else survived to say that it was true. He claims to have destroyed 500 tanks single-handed. Maybe true, but it's a remarkable number nevertheless and he's the only one who can confirm the "kills" - from a diving airplane, while trying to avoid the ground, flak, interceptors &c. His sniper kill of the Il2 with the last shot from his 37mm - maybe yes, maybe no, he's the only one to say.
So a lot depends on Rudel's credibility, and that's where things like the opinions of his fellow pilots and his own odd view of history and who's-doing-what-to-whom play a big part. And frankly, based on such things, I don't trust him.
- oldman
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regardless, getting lost in the numbers which do not matter and may or may not be accurate I can not say one way or the other.
the guy was an athlete. ran and did sports for fun when not flying. it can not be understated how effective physical fitness is when doing heavy maneuvering and flying in bad conditions from sunrise to sunset. This physical training was likely responsible for his survival during 5 years of uninterupted combat flying. Simply being alive after all that is the feat that I am interested in.
In that I am curious as to how this even happened that this guy was not killed. He was very good and also very lucky.
the numbers add up by way of not being dead and thereby default your experience increases because you are not dead even after being shot down 32 times.
the guy could not be taken out of his flying unit and no matter what anyone in charge said about him being grounded he kept flying and in the process being wounded in the shoulder while escaping, the right leg while flying and flying with a plaster cast on it then 5 weeks later breaks every cardinal rule of attack flying and makes so many low passes on a is2 that will not light that he is finally hit by AA in the left leg which is more or less blown off of his body. then 6 weeks later he is flying again with his right leg only as he does not have a prosthetic yet made.
His survival is just as inconcievable as his story and yet there he is after all of it missing a lot of pieces and still breathing. I do not find the taking out of ground vehicles at all remarkable in the sense that it is not believeable. the russians and germans both had large success with th 37mm anti tank aircraft and in Aces High we can see just how effective they were when firing into the vulnerable parts of the engine deck and etc.
Do not take it word for word as gospel. in fact you would likely be well served not to take gospel literally either.
As moot said people love to dismiss things once they find one disagreable point and do not take the whole picture that is being presented. The intent of the picture being painted may or may nto be embelished. regardless it does give a good narative of the attack pilots view of the war as they are shuffled from base to base and after stalingrad constantly being moved back with a russian sea of advancing armies always on their heals.
The numbers did not matter to the red army. all rudels success was at most tactical. There was no stoppping russia and I think the story and narative is compelling in that it gives a glimpse into the fall of germany from his perspective.
This thread was started because I found parallels in his story with the flying Aces High that made his book more enjoyable to read because I could picture the tank attacks having seen and experienced simulated versions of them.
the way he describes that the static front was not the best place to attack the tanks as the aaa was to heavy. that it was best to catch the t34s on the move in the field whiel they advanced before the flak could be brought up. that sounds earily familiar to how hard it is to attack tanks with wirrbles or base ack around.
Your looking for a black and white truth fiction indicator which when I read it was not my interest. I prefer to take the facts that I know can be verified and then read the story and not pretend to know one way or the other the validity of it all beyond the premise that this is a glimpse into the daily operational life of a ju87 stuka attack pilot that survived 5 years of war outnumbered in an obsolete airplane.
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I liked the book. I found it a good read.
For me, Rudel is a fascinating character. I do not mean that I idolize him, what I do mean is the tenacity of the man (if true) commands my respect but, what he is tenaciously clinging to, absolutely disgusts me at the same time. That is what fascinates me: the fact that I respect and am disgusted by the man, all at the same time.
The biggest problem, for me at least, is that I find it hard to separate individuals from their beliefs. Even if someone does good deeds, while espousing a sketchy or twisted doctrine, I find it hard to trust them. This is what kills it for me and makes it hard to believe that everything in the book is 100% accurate and prevents me from considering the man a "hero" of any kind, especially since he had become a poster boy for the Nazi propaganda machine.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
- Joseph Goebbels
There is no denying the fact that he was in good physical condition and a superb pilot, but I would not go so far to say he was the "best".
One also cannot deny that he had some pretty big brass balls either, but I would wager that to be a statement that could be applied to pretty much any Stuka pilot on the Eastern front at that time.
As for the Stuka G?
Would be a welcome addition as far as I am concerned :rock
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There is no denying the fact that he was in good physical condition and a superb pilot, but I would not go so far to say he was the "best".
One also cannot deny that he had some pretty big brass balls either, but I would wager that to be a statement that could be applied to pretty much any Stuka pilot on the Eastern front at that time.
I'm always surprised that any German made it out alive, it was a total meat grinder, the numerical adv the allies had was mind-blowing.
I remember reading an excerpt from an interview with Erich Heartmann where he stated that once in late 44 (maybe even early 45), he and 4 others went up against a formation of 1000 allied planes, and managed to escape alive :O
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I'm always surprised that any German made it out alive, it was a total meat grinder, the numerical adv the allies had was mind-blowing.
I remember reading an excerpt from an interview with Erich Heartmann where he stated that once in late 44 (maybe even early 45), he and 4 others went up against a formation of 1000 allied planes, and managed to escape alive :O
Kind of reminds you of what the Polish airmen faced in September, 1939 doesn't it?
- oldman
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Hell surviving as a Stuka pilot for those years deserves a TOAST with the finest whiskey available!!!
JUGgler
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Kind of reminds you of what the Polish airmen faced in September, 1939 doesn't it?
- oldman
yes, the fact that some people managed to survive unsurmountable odds is amazing regardless of the country the fought for.
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He was an extraordinary pilot and combat leader that did overcome tons of adversity and difficult challenges, but he was extremely morally challenged.
I enjoy his book and reading of his exploits, but much like Oldman, I insist it be taken with a grain of salt.
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yes, the fact that some people managed to survive unsurmountable odds is amazing regardless of the country the fought for.
Frankly the idea of being, in reality, strapped into a cockpit with just 1 schwarm to back you up, and coming up on 100 enemy fighters.. At that point it doesn't even matter if you're Rudel or Vanilla Ice.
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I think it's impractical to let a pilot's political affiliations or political thoughts extinguish one's enjoyment of reading about the flying. Stalin and his Soviet regime were just as bad as (or worse than, if you are going by body count) Hitler and the Nazis. WWII Japan and its treatment of the Chinese, SE asians, and POW's was right on up there. Yet I enjoy reading the stories of Soviet pilots (including pro-Party ones) and of Japanese pilots (including pro-Imperial Japan ones). Some folks take into account German pilots' politics, but do folks notice or care at all about Soviet or Japanese pilots' politics?
I also think it is interesting to read about Caesar, Alexander, Napoleon, Charlemagne, Ghengis Khan, Vikings, Vandals, Angles, Saxons, the Kings of England, etc., but I don't have to think that everything they did or strove for was moral.
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In reading any history, it's always about the people and what they were about. How people carry themselves, react to what's going on around them is always more interesting to me. The "Good guys" show themselves regardless of which side they are on, as do the "Bad guys".
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Nonetheless there are remarkable virtues to be found even in some of the worst of the worst. Stripping the wheat from chaff that way is IMHO the best way to go about it.
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Rudel is a legend cheers for the link :salute
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In the interest of fairness I reread the book. It was still a grind. It's like he's writing from behind himself and it's a hard read. Is the detail there? Sure. But he never connects. As an author he makes a good pilot :)
I'd suggest a book called "Betrayed Skies" by Rudolf Braunburg. A different look at the airwar from the LW side. I always talk about Edwards Park's book "Nanette" as my favorite fighter pilot book. "Betrayed Skies" is the Luftwaffe equivalent. He's an average "Joe" flying a 190 in 44-45. In some ways his survival is far more impressive then Rudel's.
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so there was another that landed this many times under fire and picked up downed air crews?
Thanks for the link. Know of any more?
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Rudel could be an excellent pilot, but his book is very poor written and full of pure bullsh#t.
For example, he describes how he managed to return home after a hard fight with P-39s:
"My aircraft has been riddled by the 2 cm. guns and hit eight times by the 3.7 cannon."
yea bro... :aok
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Now a lifetime devoted nazi (no, not just a "patriot"), which did consciously and willingly did fight FOR everything Nazism stood for all of his life, and thus was and still is an icon of neo-nazis, is being presented as someone to look up at?
Disgusting.
Agreed. I read it when I was 15 and I came to the same conclusion.
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What did you guys think of Saburo Sakai's book? I know he was no Rudel and openly condemned the Imperial Japanese government, but nonetheless he did fly for the other side.
Note: I have read Sakai's book but not Rudel's.
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Guess a lot of people are uncomfortable with an unrepentant Nazi as a hero figure :rofl
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That was a fantastic book. I have that oun. The story of how he got back after getting caught behind enemy lines trying to help a shot down comrad was something else. That guy ran on pure guts. Regardless of his affiliation.
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Rudel always struck me as a self promoter, as many "Heros" often are. To me Hartman was the Polar opposite as a man and an airman.
To his dieing day Rudel was a die hard Nazi. He despised the Jul '44 conspirators and even wrote a book saying if not for that attempt on Hitlers life Germany would have won the war. Imagine anyone being that big a die hard to believe that still years after the war? You'd had to have been a brainwashed imbecile to even believe it in Jul '44. But Rudel was convinced of Hitlers military genius until his dieing day.
In his book does he talk about the suicide missions he wanted to do at the end of the war but never quite got round to doing them ? Instead leading his group on one last flight to Yank lien routeoute to a literary retirement of ease among other sympathizers?
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Rudel could be an excellent pilot, but his book is very poor written and full of pure bullsh#t.
For example, he describes how he managed to return home after a hard fight with P-39s:
"My aircraft has been riddled by the 2 cm. guns and hit eight times by the 3.7 cannon."
yea bro... :aok
A lot of allied aces do this. Does the fact that they are allies somehow make the practice legit?
In all fairness it may not even be deliberate, just the result of failing memory or exaggeration from the experience of taking fire which can be harrowing and mind-numbing in and by itself. If it's deliberate, well let's just say it's a commonplace practice however not one honored among pilots, though surprisingly many get away with it. It takes away nothing from his experience, but a chunk from his character. There are plenty of examples of people practicing this and you don't have to look further than the arenas in AH to find some of them.
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A lot of allied aces do this. Does the fact that they are allies somehow make the practice legit?
In all fairness it may not even be deliberate, just the result of failing memory or exaggeration from the experience of taking fire which can be harrowing and mind-numbing in and by itself. If it's deliberate, well let's just say it's a commonplace practice however not one honored among pilots, though surprisingly many get away with it. It takes away nothing from his experience, but a chunk from his character. There are plenty of examples of people practicing this and you don't have to look further than the arenas in AH to find some of them.
You answered like a LW fan :)
No where did anyone suggest it an OK practice for allied aces either.
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I found the book quite deceiving and self serving. To give Rudel credit for being anything other than the Nazi he was is giving venue to the cause he intended the book to provide. He was, is, and always will be something less than human.
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A heroic Nazi that cannot be right! :old: they are the bad guys remember? In films they are never heroic! And films don't lie! We should start a campaign to find out the truth about this rudel! Most likely the Russians were having an unarmed tank display for children and this swine swooped in and killed them that way, plus strafing screaming parents and their kids just because he was evil! :old:
The final scene has Stalin cradling a dead tot weeping asking 'why?' and swearing to get rudel for being a swine! :old:
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:old:
Rudel always struck me as a self promoter, as many "Heros" often are. To me Hartman was the Polar opposite as a man and an airman.
Instead leading his group on one last flight to Yank lien routeoute to a literary retirement of ease among other sympathizers?
Hartmann was turned over to the Russians he done the same as rudel he then spent 10 years in a soviet pow camp, he was a hero because after the war he was no longer a Nazi
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Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: [clears throat] I'm not very interested in propaganda.
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A heroic Nazi that cannot be right! :old: they are the bad guys remember? In films they are never heroic! And films don't lie! We should start a campaign to find out the truth about this rudel! Most likely the Russians were having an unarmed tank display for children and this swine swooped in and killed them that way, plus strafing screaming parents and their kids just because he was evil! :old:
The final scene has Stalin cradling a dead tot weeping asking 'why?' and swearing to get rudel for being a swine! :old:
Stalin = I say "Katyn" and think of the POS no more.
Rudel = went overboard embellishing (more so than usual), but his "fanaticism" was crystal clear.
It's that simple for me and I can give a rat's posterior.
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Stalin = I say "Katyn" and think of the POS no more.
Rudel = went overboard embellishing (more so than usual), but his "fanaticism" was crystal clear.
It's that simple for me and I can give a rat's posterior.
Are you saying that rudel's fanaticism made him more prone to telling lies? Where in this book do you believe he has went overboard with the facts? Or do you doubt that an unrepentant Nazi could have achieved these feats, where as for example hartmann is generally well received and believed because he wasn't really a Nazi after the war ended?
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I get a kick out of the knee-jerk responses regarding Nazi party members. Nazi does not automatically mean "bad person". It is sad to know that most have no clue of the origins of the party, only the populist view of what it became once Hitler transformed it into what he wanted. The Nazis of 1930 were very different than the Nazis in 1942-45, and even of today.
With that being said, please do not confuse what I just said with my own personal opinions of the Nazis, they are two different things.
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I get a kick out of the knee-jerk responses regarding Nazi party members. Nazi does not automatically mean "bad person". It is sad to know that most have no clue of the origins of the party, only the populist view of what it became once Hitler transformed it into what he wanted. The Nazis of 1930 were very different than the Nazis in 1942-45, and even of today.
With that being said, please do not confuse what I just said with my own personal opinions of the Nazis, they are two different things.
Just finished reading a book written in 1938 called "Defying Hitler" It's an amazing book in that as a German living through the time he describes to growth of Nazism and Hitler. His commentary on Germans, as a fellow German is not nearly so forgiving. It was not written after the war or in retrospect which makes it that much more fascinating as he's predicting WW2. A most interesting comment from the book jumped out at me as it describes the Rudel's of the world to a T. Again this wasn't written postwar, and the words are of a German watching this all unfold around him.
"As Bismarck once remarked in a famous speech, courage is in any case a rare virtue in Germany, but it deserts a German completely the moment he puts on a uniform. As soldiers and officer, he is indisputably and outstandingly courageous on the field of battle. He is usually even prepared to open fire on his own compatriots if ordered to do so. Yet he is as timid as a lamb at the though of opposing authority."
It was an amazing little book and really changed some of my preconceptions about the growth of the Nazi party and it's taking over in Germany. They were never the good guys.
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I get a kick out of the knee-jerk responses regarding Nazi party members. Nazi does not automatically mean "bad person".
To join the nazi party was to align yourself explicitly with the ideals of white supremecy and the war-mongering arian nation.
There was no positive side to it. It was a party started by and for Hitler, for all intents and purposes. Being part of the Nazi party means being slightly fanatical or possibly sychophantic for Hitler himself.
I cannot agree with you on your comment.
Edit:
Conversely, don't get me wrong, many pilots and soldiers were "German" and not Nazi. You could serve the country RUN by the Nazi party, without actually joining the party, if you see my distinction?
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it describes the Rudel's of the world to a T.
What exactly does this mean?? please explain and yes I have read your quote but I fail to see the relevance to Rudel's situation, are you saying Rudel was a coward for believing in and fighting for his beliefs? Rather than say, going against his superiors to fight for your beliefs or western beliefs??
Why don't you just say you don't believe his stories or respect his actions because he was a Nazi? It would save a lot of time and book quotes ;)
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"As Bismarck once remarked in a famous speech, courage is in any case a rare virtue in Germany, but it deserts a German completely the moment he puts on a uniform. As soldiers and officer, he is indisputably and outstandingly courageous on the field of battle. He is usually even prepared to open fire on his own compatriots if ordered to do so. Yet he is as timid as a lamb at the though of opposing authority."
The Milgram experiment comes to mind when reading this. Acquiesence to authority isn't a uniquely German trait.
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A heroic Nazi that cannot be right! :old: they are the bad guys remember? In films they are never heroic! And films don't lie! We should start a campaign to find out the truth about this rudel! Most likely the Russians were having an unarmed tank display for children and this swine swooped in and killed them that way, plus strafing screaming parents and their kids just because he was evil! :old:
The final scene has Stalin cradling a dead tot weeping asking 'why?' and swearing to get rudel for being a swine! :old:
Stalin's existence neither excuses nor justifies Rudel's.
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The Milgram experiment comes to mind when reading this. Acquiesence to authority isn't a uniquely German trait.
Totally agree. It was just such a surprise to read it in a book written in 1938 by a German man watching the world around him cave in.
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What exactly does this mean?? please explain and yes I have read your quote but I fail to see the relevance to Rudel's situation, are you saying Rudel was a coward for believing in and fighting for his beliefs? Rather than say, going against his superiors to fight for your beliefs or western beliefs??
Why don't you just say you don't believe his stories or respect his actions because he was a Nazi? It would save a lot of time and book quotes ;)
I've already said that. Folks keep trying to convince me otherwise. When I was 13 or so I was at my uncle's house and found a book on his shelves called "The Murderer's Among Us" about Simon Wiesenthall. One of the chapters describes a German Army Feldwebel named Anton Schmid and his actions in 1942. After seeing the ongoing annihilation of 80,000 Jews in the Wilna Ghetto, he knew as a human being he had to do something. He began smuggling in food and milk for the children. He ultimately was discovered by the Gestapo and sentenced to death for trying to help five people escape the Ghetto. In one of his last letters to his wife he'd written the following. "Everybody must die someday. One can die as an executioner or a helper. I want to die as a helper."
That kind of person inspires me. Rudel was an executioner knowing full well what he was fighting for. He too made his choice. That doesn't inspire me.
That you think this is just because he was a Nazi, I'll give another example.
Look up the My Lai Massacre, and the name Hugh Thompson. Some consider him a hero, others a villain for his actions that awful day. I consider him a hero and inspiring. You tell me what you think of him.
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I've already said that. Folks keep trying to convince me otherwise. When I was 13 or so I was at my uncle's house and found a book on his shelves called "The Murderer's Among Us" about Simon Wiesenthall. One of the chapters describes a German Army Feldwebel named Anton Schmid and his actions in 1942. After seeing the ongoing annihilation of 80,000 Jews in the Wilna Ghetto, he knew as a human being he had to do something. He began smuggling in food and milk for the children. He ultimately was discovered by the Gestapo and sentenced to death for trying to help five people escape the Ghetto. In one of his last letters to his wife he'd written the following. "Everybody must die someday. One can die as an executioner or a helper. I want to die as a helper."
That kind of person inspires me. Rudel was an executioner knowing full well what he was fighting for. He too made his choice. That doesn't inspire me.
That you think this is just because he was a Nazi, I'll give another example.
Look up the My Lai Massacre, and the name Hugh Thompson. Some consider him a hero, others a villain for his actions that awful day. I consider him a hero and inspiring. You tell me what you think of him.
The difference being Rudel didn't simply go around slaughtering innocents, he fought against an armed enemy for 5 years in a plane that was pretty much obsolete, the vast majority of people don't have the balls to up a JU87 in Aces High for fear of their virtual lives let alone do it for real for 5 years constantly in wartime and survive. If Rudel was involved directly with the mass killing of Jews this would be a no brainer obviously. While I am no Nazi I am pretty blase about political ideology full stop I can see that this guy had balls to do all this that is why I respect him.
I'll not lie about promising to read My Lai Massacre I am pretty stretched for time these days Guppy but I will make an effort to read it on my next break and get back to you on that one mate. :salute
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The difference being Rudel didn't simply go around slaughtering innocents, he fought against an armed enemy for 5 years in a plane that was pretty much obsolete, the vast majority of people don't have the balls to up a JU87 in Aces High for fear of their virtual lives let alone do it for real for 5 years constantly in wartime and survive. If Rudel was involved directly with the mass killing of Jews this would be a no brainer obviously. While I am no Nazi I am pretty blase about political ideology full stop I can see that this guy had balls to do all this that is why I respect him.
I'll not lie about promising to read My Lai Massacre I am pretty stretched for time these days Guppy but I will make an effort to read it on my next break and get back to you on that one mate. :salute
That he never recognized, even postwar what he fought for says it all. There was no question what the Nazi regime stood for, even before the war. I can accept that he was a great pilot. I can't get to the point I can say I have any respect for him at all.
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Interesting discussion, but as always... what people say reflect infinitely more upon themselves than what it does on the topic. So whatever your contribution to the topic is, it's meagre at best in comparison to what you tell us about your self.
Just for the sake of turning some heads upside down. The truth does not know the boundaries of your imagination. ;)
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I can accept that he was a great pilot. I can't get to the point I can say I have any respect for him at all.
Well I can respect that :salute
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Interesting discussion, but as always... what people say reflect infinitely more upon themselves than what it does on the topic. So whatever your contribution to the topic is, it's meagre at best in comparison to what you tell us about your self.
Just for the sake of turning some heads upside down. The truth does not know the boundaries of your imagination. ;)
Interesting. What have you learned about me?
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Interesting. What have you learned about me?
I'll answer that one, that you read too many books :P
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enjoyed this thread and the responses.
that guppy was able to conceed that rudel was a master combat pilot was what I was wondering about... meaning do people discount a hated enemies mastery of the battlefield because of their motives?
or can they look objectively at the actual combat actions and be interested in it in a way that excludes any thought or interest in politics and motives and ideology?
my opinion through this discussion remains this...
Rudel the combat pilot was one of the most hardcore Badarses of WWII. He sucked bad to the point that he was grounded and put in an observer position when he started. But he learned and improved and became one of if not the best flyer of WWII. (subjective topic being the best)
Rudel the man was naive. blinded by unwavering devotion to hitler and oblivious to the ramifications of what his leader and his government would do to germany. This failure was complete and Germany's destruction total and surender unconditional. Rudel mourns this loss and would give anything to have had his 1000yr reich regardless of what that would mean for the world. this was the group (Nazi germany) that made him their hero and his ego was such that this was the defining factor in why Rudel would accept, dismiss or turn a blind eye to the evil deeds being done. I believe Rudel was never able to come to grips with the reality of his misplaced hero worshipof Hitler. To his last days he defended the actions of Nazi germany, his personal Shangri-La.
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Rudel the man was naive.... I believe Rudel was never able to come to grips with the reality of his misplaced hero worshipof Hitler. To his last days he defended the actions of Nazi germany, his personal Shangri-La.
What prompts you to think that Rudel was naive, rather than someone who gladly and almost fervently adopted Naziism?
- oldman (just wondering, it isn't a rhetorical question)
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People may hate Nazis but everyone loves Nazi gold can we all agree on that??
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/nazi-gold-bar1_7972.jpg)
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I'll answer that one, that you read too many books :P
Thinks he's all smart with his fancy book learning and what not.
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:old:
Hartmann was turned over to the Russians he done the same as rudel he then spent 10 years in a soviet pow camp, he was a hero because after the war he was no longer a Nazi
Hartmann was never a member of the NSDAP, but Rudel was. Hartmann was an average person, fighting for their country, Rudel was a fanatic. Oskar Schindler was a member of the NSDAP, but shielded his workers regardless of the cost involved. But Schindler worked the NSDAP system to his Schindlerjudens' benefit and kept them alive.
Iconic quote from David M. Crowe's book, Oskar Schindler: The Untold Account of His Life, Wartime Activities, and the True Story Behind The List: "I knew the people who worked for me. When you know people, you have to behave towards them like human beings." I recommend the book as well, it is a very good read.
Rudel would disagree with Herr Schindler and therein lies the difference between the personalities.
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I'll answer that one, that you read too many books :P
Never too many. The first books opened the door to more books, more questions and more learning. That eventually lead to finding the people from the books and meeting them. Which lead to more questions, more digging and more books and more people. I've forever grateful that my parents spent time time all those years ago giving us the idea that reading was a good thing :)
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Never too many. The first books opened the door to more books, more questions and more learning. That eventually lead to finding the people from the books and meeting them. Which lead to more questions, more digging and more books and more people. I've forever grateful that my parents spent time time all those years ago giving us the idea that reading was a good thing :)
My son has picked up the reading bug from me. :devil
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Interesting. What have you learned about me?
I'm not in the business of judging people so it doesn't interest me. And whatever my opinion may be about you, based on what you've posted on this bbs, is bound to be wrong. So there is no point. You were just laying bait for me, mostly curious about my answer. You succeeded, even if it may not be the answer you expected.
Reading is seldom overrated, but you have to be somewhat careful what books you read. There's a lot of junk literature out there. As long as it's grounded in reality it's generally not a waste of time.
One of the best articles I've ever read was authored by Donald Hotson. Now if you're looking for a maverick scientist, he's pretty much set the standard.
:salute
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To join the nazi party was to align yourself explicitly with the ideals of white supremecy and the war-mongering arian nation.
There was no positive side to it. It was a party started by and for Hitler, for all intents and purposes. Being part of the Nazi party means being slightly fanatical or possibly sychophantic for Hitler himself.
I cannot agree with you on your comment.
In Bold this statement I believe is incorrect. Anton Drexler was it's first leader I believe
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The guy...party line or not was a shat hot pilot. The guy had stones the size of grapefruit. his affiliation was bogus but his ability wasnt. Cant we just say the guy was a SH pilot and leave it at that??
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In Bold this statement I believe is incorrect. Anton Drexler was it's first leader I believe
Hence my secondary clause of that same sentence, "for all intents and purposes"....
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The guy...party line or not was a shat hot pilot. The guy had stones the size of grapefruit. his affiliation was bogus but his ability wasnt. Cant we just say the guy was a SH pilot and leave it at that??
Nope. Cause there was more to the man then just being a pilot. In the end his piloting skills were secondary to who he was as a man and what he stood for. And what he stood for was one of the greatest evils if not the most evil the planet has ever seen.
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Hence my secondary clause of that same sentence, "for all intents and purposes"....
Nope. Hitler was the 55th member of the NSDAP, which was created in 1919, two years before Hitler was invited to join. Hitler was invited to join after he was sent to investigate the party while still in the army.
ack-ack
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If Charles Manson could fold origami better and sweeter than the most zen of monks, would people be able to say "Man, he was a sh hot origami folder!"
What of the skin-head with a swastika tatooed on his forhead? If he helps a little old lady across the street, does that make him better?
No... Some things define you more than others. Rudel's fanaticism over-rides almost anything else you can call him.
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Nope. Hitler was the 55th member of the NSDAP, which was created in 1919, two years before Hitler was invited to join. Hitler was invited to join after he was sent to investigate the party while still in the army.
ack-ack
I didn't want to spark a history lesson. I know it was inaccurate, but let's just say the party back then and the party Hitler changed it into were 2 very different things. "for all intents and purposes" was intended to stave off nitpicking comments like that, but it failed.
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"for all intents and purposes" was intended to stave off nitpicking comments like that, but it failed.
Next time be a little more accurate in your comments and you won't get nitpicked so much. YMMV.
ack-ack
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If Charles Manson could fold origami better and sweeter than the most zen of monks, would people be able to say "Man, he was a sh hot origami folder!"
What of the skin-head with a swastika tatooed on his forhead? If he helps a little old lady across the street, does that make him better?
No... Some things define you more than others. Rudel's fanaticism over-rides almost anything else you can call him.
If Hitler had not started genocide upon peoples the swastika would have very little meaning today and the skinhead would probably not exist. Also Hitler would be associated in history books with the likes of Alexander, Napoleon, Caesar etc. etc.Rudel was a follower, as most men are including almost all folks in here. Rudels life as a stuka pilot is remarkable to say the least. His life as a Nazi was just average for "HIS" TIME AND PLACE IN HISTORY.
I rather think Rudel is defined by his time and circumstance. A time none of us can comprehend and hope we never will. Without the stuggle of humanity during WW2 and the attrocities of the Nazis, Great men such as Churchill, Patton, Hartmann, Rudel, Guderian, Montgomery, Rommel, Bradly, Nimitz, Zukov, Bong, etc. etc. etc. and yes even Hitler would be unknown to us and they would have no place in human history. As it is History required "ALL" the "GREAT" people at this time, for if ANY of them were absent to fulfill their GREATNESS, none of them would be remembered, cherrished, loved , hated or admired.
Was Rudel a great man in human history? maybe not, but he was a great man for his time in history as are all the humans spurred to they're greatness when time calls upon them!!
Please note when I say great it does not mean good or evil, as greatness IMHO can be either or both! :aok
JUGgler
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There is nothing great within evil JUG. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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There is nothing great within evil JUG. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
I don't think we disagree, we just look at it differently. I'll give you an example: It is a GREAT thing that Hitler came along when he did and not 30 years later! Yes we could argue "why did he have to come along at all" but that is a M00T point. I think Hitler was the perfect man for his time and place to force HUMANITY to learn valuable lessons about itself and its past as well as its future. You could say Hitler was a pawn in the age old struggle of human refinement.
JUGgler
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I'll give you an example: It is a GREAT thing that Hitler came along when he did and not 30 years later! Yes we could argue "why did he have to come along at all" but that is a M00T point. I think Hitler was the perfect man for his time and place to force HUMANITY to learn valuable lessons about itself and its past as well as its future. You could say Hitler was a pawn in the age old struggle of human refinement.
Well, Jugler, you certainly stopped me there. Here's an idea: Why don't we do it all again? I'll bet that this time we can kill even more people and cause even more suffering for everyone else, and think how much more we'll learn about humanity's self, past and future! Why, with modern weapons we could probably knock off half of humanity itself, solve overpopulation, get some nuclear winter going to counteract global warming, the possibilities are almost endless. Think how refined we'll be at the end of it all!
- oldman
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If Hitler had not started genocide upon peoples the swastika would have very little meaning today and the skinhead would probably not exist. Also Hitler would be associated in history books with the likes of Alexander, Napoleon, Caesar etc. etc. Rudel was a follower, as most men are including almost all folks in here. Rudels life as a stuka pilot is remarkable to say the least. His life as a Nazi was just average for "HIS" TIME AND PLACE IN HISTORY.
I rather think Rudel is defined by his time and circumstance. A time none of us can comprehend and hope we never will. Without the stuggle of humanity during WW2 and the attrocities of the Nazis, Great men such as Churchill, Patton, Hartmann, Rudel, Guderian, Montgomery, Rommel, Bradly, Nimitz, Zukov, Bong, etc. etc. etc. and yes even Hitler would be unknown to us and they would have no place in human history. As it is History required "ALL" the "GREAT" people at this time, for if ANY of them were absent to fulfill their GREATNESS, none of them would be remembered, cherrished, loved , hated or admired.
Was Rudel a great man in human history? maybe not, but he was a great man for his time in history as are all the humans spurred to they're greatness when time calls upon them!!
Please note when I say great it does not mean good or evil, as greatness IMHO can be either or both! :aok
JUGgler
You are so far off of the mark, it is beyond belief.
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Well, Jugler, you certainly stopped me there. Here's an idea: Why don't we do it all again? I'll bet that this time we can kill even more people and cause even more suffering for everyone else, and think how much more we'll learn about humanity's self, past and future! Why, with modern weapons we could probably knock off half of humanity itself, solve overpopulation, get some nuclear winter going to counteract global warming, the possibilities are almost endless. Think how refined we'll be at the end of it all!
- oldman
My very obvious point shows this need not happen! Humans have treated each other poorly since the beginning of time.
To look at these issues with less emotion would help! :aok
JUGgler
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You are so far off of the mark, it is beyond belief.
Please elaborate! I believe my opinion is "on the mark" for it being MY opinion!
JUGgler
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Hitlers existence didn't do $h1t for ending genocide, sadly...
1)1950s: China - Attempted to destroy Buddhism in Tibet and killed thousands.
2)1965: Indonesia - 600,000 people killed - accused of being "communist."
3)1960s: Burundi - Tutsi killed up to 300,000 Hutus in African
4)1965: Guatemala - Over 100,000 Indians killed by military
5)1960s: Nigeria - Thousands of Ibos massacred or starved to death by the
government.
6)1971: Pakistan - Up to three million Bengalis killed by the Pakistan government.
7)1972-1973: Paraguay - Thousands of Ache Indians were tortured, enslaved,
or killed by the Paraguayan government.
8)1970s: Cambodia - Up to three million Kampucheans killed by the Khmer Rouge.
9)1975 to now: Indonesia - Up to 100,000 out of a total population of 600,000 East
Timorans killed by Indonesian troops.
10)1992-1995: Bosnia - 200,000 deaths
11)1994: Rwanda - Hutus kill 800,000 Tutsis
12)2004 to Now: Sudan - Government sponsored Janjaweed has killed off over 400,000 innocent
civilians and displaced 2.5 million people from their homes.
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Hitlers existence didn't do $h1t for ending genocide, sadly...
1)1950s: China - Attempted to destroy Buddhism in Tibet and killed thousands.
2)1965: Indonesia - 600,000 people killed - accused of being "communist."
3)1960s: Burundi - Tutsi killed up to 300,000 Hutus in African
4)1965: Guatemala - Over 100,000 Indians killed by military
5)1960s: Nigeria - Thousands of Ibos massacred or starved to death by the
government.
6)1971: Pakistan - Up to three million Bengalis killed by the Pakistan government.
7)1972-1973: Paraguay - Thousands of Ache Indians were tortured, enslaved,
or killed by the Paraguayan government.
8)1970s: Cambodia - Up to three million Kampucheans killed by the Khmer Rouge.
9)1975 to now: Indonesia - Up to 100,000 out of a total population of 600,000 East
Timorans killed by Indonesian troops.
10)1992-1995: Bosnia - 200,000 deaths
11)1994: Rwanda - Hutus kill 800,000 Tutsis
12)2004 to Now: Sudan - Government sponsored Janjaweed has killed off over 400,000 innocent
civilians and displaced 2.5 million people from their homes.
All this is very true Ardy, but I also think noone can deny that the human race turned a corner after Ww2 well maybe the human race in the west anyway :aok
Also none of these involved the world as a whole. All the examples you give here show that these areas have much to learn about humanity!
JUGgler
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I'm not big on 'lessons' that involved people dying. There is NOTHING gained from that. We tend to try and make it noble as there is nothing else to do.
One of my favorite movie lines if from "Love and Death" The line of troops walks on to a battlefield covered with bodies and wreckage. The one guy looks at the Woody Allen character and says "God is testing us!" The Woody Allen character looks back and says "Could we have just taken the written?"
JUG, get a copy of "Defying Hitler" by Sebastian Haffner. As mentioned earlier it was written just prior to WW2 and not edited in hindsight. He comments on exactly what you are talking about. Let's just say he didn't agree :) A powerful memoir
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the ju87g would be sweet! amazing how that dude survived all that! shot down 22 times!
37mm gun?
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Average German kid 1936 would prolly be a close comparison to the average American kid 1996... Only the German kid had less to do..
The average German soldier on the battlefield fought to have the right to gas Jews? I suspect not. I bet he fought for his country or at least thought he did.. He fought what his government told him was the enemy.. Kinda just like most all other soldiers throughout history.. Kinda just like what our soldiers are doing now, the last 10years, and the foreseeable future. But we are the good guys! Wait, 1942 German soldier, he thought he was the good guy.. oh wait... now im confused.. :headscratch:
I'm less confused!
:aok
JUGgler
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this thread needs to go to the O-Club Skuzzy
these idiots are going political and not discussing how this rudel guy did what he did in airplanes which was the origional intent of this thread, but it has been hijacked by people with political agendas.
this discussion has nothing to do with flying in AH at this point or with the interest in adding a ju87G. methods of tank busting, surviving in an obsolete airplane etc etc.
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Average German kid 1936 would prolly be a close comparison to the average American kid 1996... Only the German kid had less to do..
The average German soldier on the battlefield fought to have the right to gas Jews? I suspect not. I bet he fought for his country or at least thought he did.. He fought what his government told him was the enemy.. Kinda just like most all other soldiers throughout history.. Kinda just like what our soldiers are doing now, the last 10years, and the foreseeable future. But we are the good guys! Wait, 1942 German soldier, he thought he was the good guy.. oh wait... now im confused.. :headscratch:
I bet the avg German solder fought because if he didn't he would get killed.
number of German solders killed by German authorities during ww2: ~30,000
number of US solders killed by US authorities during ww2: 1
That being said, the point others are trying to make is that Rudel wasn't the avg German solder in any respect, neither in skill nor drive.
Was he a skilled pilot, YES.
Was he a despicable Nazi, YES.
I think that sums it up, you are all correct, but you all love to fight... hmmmm :headscratch:
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this thread needs to go to the O-Club Skuzzy
these idiots are going political and not discussing how this rudel guy did what he did in airplanes which was the origional intent of this thread, but it has been hijacked by people with political agendas.
this discussion has nothing to do with flying in AH at this point or with the interest in adding a ju87G. methods of tank busting, surviving in an obsolete airplane etc etc.
+1 :aok
JUGgler
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I'm not big on 'lessons' that involved people dying. There is NOTHING gained from that. We tend to try and make it noble as there is nothing else to do.
I disagree with that statement. Revolutionary War and Civil War come to mind in less than 5 seconds. There was plenty gained from both of those...and both required much bloodshed. I think we all prefer to not have death involved in anything we do...but there are times that it has been required.
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I'm going to reply apolitically to the political.
Wars... are... always... about... resources. Period.
Politics, religion, etc are mere "excuses."
As to Rudel. I've only vaguely been aware of him being a stuka ace and nazi. I did read the "book" - thx fester.
I'll give him his single-minded dedication. I do wonder how he may have turned out if he served on the West Front, as opposed to the Eastern, which in his eyes seemed to be the enemy moreso than the jews per se - the "facist" vs "commies" aspect of the nazi party. But then, since I haven't delved too much into him, or any aces for that matter, so if he was vocally anti-semite I'd look at him lesser than I already do. That's the *man.*
As an insane person and pilot, no one can dispute his single-minded dedication to flying and shooting up @#!%
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I'm not big on 'lessons' that involved people dying. There is NOTHING gained from that.
Not true in my line of work and many others. Maybe that's not in the context of what your point is.
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I disagree with that statement. Revolutionary War and Civil War come to mind in less than 5 seconds. There was plenty gained from both of those...and both required much bloodshed. I think we all prefer to not have death involved in anything we do...but there are times that it has been required.
Take it in the context of my entire comment Josh. Sadly we end up in times where that kind of sacrifice and bloodshed becomes inevitable because a supposed 'civilized' mankind can't work out things without it. My comment was also in response to JUG suggesting Hitler's rise was a 'great' event in terms of the outcome. Who knows what might have come out of the minds and efforts of any of those millions who never got a chance thanks to that event? I can't ever seem to get past the faces and names of the individuals that have to pay the price
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Kinda looked at the context after Slashs post. Like I said in mine...I gave it 5 seconds of thought at the time.
~S~
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When you come to realize that all major wars since the Napoleonic wars have been financed by the same group of banks, it is of less interest to discuss these issues. Armed conflict has become a charade, nothing drive nations in debt like war. Sovereign nations are brought to their knees and become subservient to banks. These multi-national corporations have no loyalty and to them it is of lesser importance who win (some, not all) these wars. The Federal Reserve is a private entity, so is the Bank of England. The list goes on and on. Guess who own the new bank of Libya? Go figure...
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Take it in the context of my entire comment Josh. Sadly we end up in times where that kind of sacrifice and bloodshed becomes inevitable because a supposed 'civilized' mankind can't work out things without it. My comment was also in response to JUG suggesting Hitler's rise was a 'great' event in terms of the outcome. Who knows what might have come out of the minds and efforts of any of those millions who never got a chance thanks to that event? I can't ever seem to get past the faces and names of the individuals that have to pay the price
Great simply means something of large magnitude. It does not have to be a good thing, although "greatness" is usually associated with things of good nature.
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When you come to realize that all major wars since the Napoleonic wars have been financed by the same group of banks, it is of less interest to discuss these issues. Armed conflict has become a charade, nothing drive nations in debt like war. Sovereign nations are brought to their knees and become subservient to banks. These multi-national corporations have no loyalty and to them it is of lesser importance who win (some, not all) these wars. The Federal Reserve is a private entity, so is the Bank of England. The list goes on and on. Guess who own the new bank of Libya? Go figure...
Found this after a brief search - does it fit with your theory Vortex?
One seldom mentioned fact by western politicians and media pundits: the Central Bank of Libya is 100% State Owned. The world’s globalist financiers and market manipulators do not like it and would continue to their on-going effort to dethrone Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi, bringing an end to Libya as independent nation.
Currently, the Libyan government creates its own money, the Libyan Dinar, through the facilities of its own central bank. Few can argue that Libya is a sovereign nation with its own great resources, able to sustain its own economic destiny. One major problem for globalist banking cartels is that in order to do business with Libya, they must go through the Libyan Central Bank and its national currency, a place where they have absolutely zero dominion or power-broking ability. Hence, taking down the Central Bank of Libya (CBL) may not appear in the speeches of Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy but this is certainly at the top of the globalist agenda for absorbing Libya into its hive of compliant nations.
When the smoke eventually clears from all the cruise missiles and cluster bombs, you will see the Allied reformers move in to reform Libya’s monetary system, pumping it full of worthless dollars, priming it for a series of chaotic inflationary cycles.
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It's not a theory, but I guess that depends on what kind of information you have access to. Much is in plain sight on the web if you can dig up the relevant pieces and are able to comprehend the implications. But be careful what info you deem credible. I decline further comment, speculate as much as you want. I'm not here to educate or inform.
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I'm interested in learning more. PM me a credible link, if you like.
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When you come to realize that all major wars since the Napoleonic wars have been financed by the same group of banks, it is of less interest to discuss these issues. Armed conflict has become a charade, nothing drive nations in debt like war. Sovereign nations are brought to their knees and become subservient to banks. These multi-national corporations have no loyalty and to them it is of lesser importance who win (some, not all) these wars. The Federal Reserve is a private entity, so is the Bank of England. The list goes on and on. Guess who own the new bank of Libya? Go figure...
Concpiracies are like buttholes, everyone has one and most of them stink!
:noid
JUGgler
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When you come to realize that all major wars since the Napoleonic wars have been financed by the same group of banks, it is of less interest to discuss these issues. Armed conflict has become a charade, nothing drive nations in debt like war. Sovereign nations are brought to their knees and become subservient to banks. These multi-national corporations have no loyalty and to them it is of lesser importance who win (some, not all) these wars. The Federal Reserve is a private entity, so is the Bank of England. The list goes on and on. Guess who own the new bank of Libya? Go figure...
No offense, but that's preposterous. A lecture on association versus causation is probably in order here, but I'll spare you.
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Preposterous? To some I guess, but it all comes down to what perspective you choose to entertain for yourself. Naive realism perhaps? Most people are locked in it and are completely ignorant to what it means. Truth does not know the boundaries of your imagination, and is oblivious to what you consider preposterous. I'm not pretending to have all the answers, in fact I don't hold anything as absolutely true. I merely consider the possibilites and apply scientific method to my findings.
Have a good day Sir.
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To be blunt, 33Vortex is well known for his conspiracy theories. I had a discussion with him a few years ago, after he suggested 9-11 isn't what it appeared to be.
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I merely consider the possibilites and apply scientific method to my findings.
:lol
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Forget Occam.
33Vortex's Razor: With competing hypotheses, the explanation that requires the most assumptions, the largest leaps of faith, and the largest supply of tin foil hats, is most likely the correct one.
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Vortex you use the idea of putting forth ideas to perhaps show the other side of it, shake up perceived norms, or whatever you want to describe it, but I fear it's more misguided than anything and doesn't come off as you intend at all.
It comes off uninformed or extremely naive. I don't mean disrespect by this, so sorry if that stings. I thought you should know. If you really want to do what you suggest I think you may need a larger philosophical background or education in the political sciences (there's a lot of related fields, though, others may apply).
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Vortex you use the idea of putting forth ideas to perhaps show the other side of it, shake up perceived norms, or whatever you want to describe it, but I fear it's more misguided than anything and doesn't come off as you intend at all.
He might want to start with actual facts. The Bank of England, for example, is not a private entity. It was, but it hasn't been for 65 years. I can see how it would be possible to draw erroneous conclusions based on erroneous facts.
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You lot seem to exclude a lot of information before reading it. Consistent with someone defending their beliefs. Selective perception a k a naive realism. Laugh as much as you want, it does not reflect upon me nearly as much as you imagine. So when did this get personal? If you were half as intelligent as you pretend to be you would not feel the need for such arrogance.
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Bear in mind, Vortex, I wasn't saying you were "naive realist" I was saying you were simply naive.
There is a difference.
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So when did this get personal? If you were half as intelligent as you pretend to be you would not feel the need for such arrogance.
Uh... asked and answered... You put forth an attempt to sound intellectual but don't pull it off. Perhaps it was the approach. Whatever the reason, your roundabout way of doing it came off as insulting, and comments like the above only cement that effect.
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did I just see Krusty call someone out for being pretentious? :rofl