Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Chilli on October 26, 2011, 07:32:53 PM
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Is the A20 any different from the iL2, when it comes to the amount of dogfighting (both in RL and in AH2)? Remarkably maneuverable in high G turns, crazy amount of ammo and basically already a preferred tool for bombing ground vehicles. Why should it retain the F3 mode while iL2 with equally crappy F1 mode views?
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Is the A20 any different from the iL2, when it comes to the amount of dogfighting (both in RL and in AH2)? Remarkably maneuverable in high G turns, crazy amount of ammo and basically already a preferred tool for bombing ground vehicles. Why should it retain the F3 mode while iL2 with equally crappy F1 mode views?
When the remodel comes & the ventral gun is added I think F3 will be removed.
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If it gets the ventral gun it would actually have an argument for F3!
I think it's used as a fighter by a select few in F3 mode, sure....
It's not nearly as pervasively mis-used as the IL2 was, though. If you want to make an argument for it, sure, but it's not keeping anybody awake at night like the Sturmi was.
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i agree no F3 mode
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The Boston should retain F3 mode.
ack-ack
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The Boston should retain F3 mode.
ack-ack
? Why just the Boston for formations?
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I think no planes should have f3 mode. People can look around by going to different gunner positions and get only the view physically available to people in the actual aircraft.
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Sounds like someone got killed by an A20 again... and here we go again. This horse has been beat to death enough. :huh
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i,ll see your F3 and raise you quad 20 mm ;)
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I think no planes should have f3 mode. People can look around by going to different gunner positions and get only the view physically available to people in the actual aircraft.
yeah, you can have the F3 mode removed the same day HT institutes a full crew of gunners to replace it
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Is it really that hard to kill an A20, it isn't like it can energy fight for very long. There's only a few that are really good at dogfighting one anyway and those that are good at it, I doubt any use F3. I can't dogfight in F3 with it, Cobia can you?, Snaphook can you? The advantage of F3 in an IL2 isn't the ability to dogfight, it's the greater SA that it gives, that and finding GV's. Is this unreasonable for the A20 to have F3? well think of it this way, if you have multiple crew, you have multiple sets of eyes, you can't model every set of eyes in the crew similtaneously, so we have F3. Turning the guns off in F3 mode I can agree with however.
:salute
BigRat
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I think no planes should have f3 mode. People can look around by going to different gunner positions and get only the view physically available to people in the actual aircraft.
this
F3 mode is bad for all planes including bombers.
My problem when flying against the A20 is that it takes 50 20mm to kill it. But I never consider it a threat except to my ammo count.
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IF by some retarded chance we get the quad-20mm A20 model - then F3 mode should be sent to hell
unless you perk it :devil
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yeah, you can have the F3 mode removed the same day HT institutes a full crew of gunners to replace it
It only takes two movements of the finger to go from pilot position to gunner and back. I never felt that it was at all difficult or slow.
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It only takes two movements of the finger to go from pilot position to gunner and back. I never felt that it was at all difficult or slow.
just give it the same visibility as all the fighters, then no f3.
semp
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I believe either give everything F3 mode or give nothing F3 mode. Its a matter of principle really.
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just give it the same visibility as all the fighters, then no f3.
semp
I think that views in the game should have the visibility that the actual plane had, whatever that is.
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I think that views in the game should have the visibility that the actual plane had, whatever that is.
then I guess you also demand that the views on fighters be from the pilot sitting down only and not standing on the seat. like it happens on some fighters.
semp
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I think no planes should have f3 mode. People can look around by going to different gunner positions and get only the view physically available to people in the actual aircraft.
plus 1 . f3 for the training arena and filming only IMO. F3 mode isn't realistic. I'd like to have a flight sim as much like the real thing as possible.
I know AH is more of a war game then flight sim but I can only dream.
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I was talking about this very thing the other day.
I think a good solution would be so that F3 is only available in a non-pilot position. This is what F3 represents, while the pilot is driving, the crew does the "looking."
Or more simply, disable F3 in pilot position.
Probably even suggested before and maybe answered, but I'm too lazy to use search atm. :old:
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just more whinning from people to want the game the way they want it.it is easy enough to kill an a20 like the il2....f3 was taken away from the il2 and now is hardly used because you cant see a damn thing in it.f3 was its only defense against fighters that dive past 10-15 other fighters just to go for an easy kill.do that to the a20 and it will be the same uselessness as the il2 now.if thats the case then all bombers should have the f3 taken away.
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then I guess you also demand that the views on fighters be from the pilot sitting down only and not standing on the seat.
Indeed -- I'd prefer whatever is the realistic view.
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Indeed -- I'd prefer whatever is the realistic view.
Agreed, take away the F3 view, we took it away from the IL-2, so make it fair and it away from the A20.
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Find it funny people talking about realism here, people getting owned by a il2 wasn't real but neither was 30 planes setting up a field for a score vulch, or for that matter being dead a few hundred times in a month thats not real, were do you draw the line?
Its a game at the end of the day, you should be able to see an opponent in a game. I always found the il2 crying situation to be unreal how did players get lazy enough to make the il2 such a problem to kill? From the op comments I take it people are using it as the IL2 used to be and you are unhappy that people using it can see you coming and maneuver to avoid you killing them??
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Is the A20 any different from the iL2, when it comes to the amount of dogfighting (both in RL and in AH2)? Remarkably maneuverable in high G turns, crazy amount of ammo and basically already a preferred tool for bombing ground vehicles. Why should it retain the F3 mode while iL2 with equally crappy F1 mode views (meant to add: had F3 taken away)?
For all those who felt they needed to somehow insert a put down (humurous ones aside), I suggest that you actually read the original post, and respond to that, or build an arguement for or against. Simply stating, "you must suck" as your response says nothing about your knowledge of history, flight modeling nor your comprehension of the comparison of AH2 A20 to iL2.
For those that were on topic, I was surprised at the number of responses that don't care for F3 mode. One remark, in particular, insisting that A20s don't have a sustained climb rate, I would have to question their experience with attacking A20s. It has been my experience that like most twin prop planes they are able to hold a pretty descent climb rate even at low speeds. In addition, they roll in and out of high G turns rather seemlessly. For those reasons, it put me in mind of the way that iL2s were used to get really effective overshoot kills after sustaining massive amounts of hits, and I ask why was F3 removed from the former attack aircraft and left available to this one?
True, as someone else posted here, the above maneuvering may be achieved in F1 mode, and I only point to the iL2 and ask what did HTC see differently there. Was it bigger guns? Because bigger guns does not always mean more potential damage.
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what makes the A20 so resistant compared to other twin engined planes?
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my question for all you F3 whiners is this..... when they take F3 away, and i still spank your LW uber monster,what will you use for an excuse then ??
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:lol
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One potential solution to the F3 debate might be to change the view system in planes with crews to allow a directional view to come from the position with the best view in that direction. For example, if you're flying a B-17 and want to look back, moving your hat to the rear view gives you the view from the rear gunner's seat. Down would be from the ball turret, etc etc. This eliminates the gamey aspects of F3 mode, limits views to what could be seen from any particular plane (no straight down from a 110), and still allows the pilot of a plane with a crew some (not all) of the advantages of having a crew observing from different positions.
The balance that has to be maintained is the SA advantage that a crew provides. In the bigger bombers like the 17, the crew provided almost instantaneous SA all around the bomber. Even F3 mode cannot match that. In a 2 person craft like the Bf 110 or Il-2, the rear gunner provides additional SA not available to a single seat plane, but less than F3 offers in game.
It only takes two movements of the finger to go from pilot position to gunner and back. I never felt that it was at all difficult or slow.
I think even this small additional requirement turns what should be an advantage (extra eyes reporting) into a disadvantage (having to change positons and being limited in how you can maneuver while away from the pilot's seat).
Regards,
Hammer
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my question for all you F3 whiners is this..... when they take F3 away, and i still spank your LW uber monster,what will you use for an excuse then ??
it still won't touch my EW/MW "monster," F3 or not :lol
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no F3 on ANYTHING including 4 engine bombers. :aok
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I do agree though that there should be as many players allowed to join a plan as there are gunner positions. . .
but I also stick to my origional statement that F3 itself is off.
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just more whinning from people to want the game the way they want it.it is easy enough to kill an a20 like the il2....f3 was taken away from the il2 and now is hardly used because you cant see a damn thing in it.f3 was its only defense against fighters that dive past 10-15 other fighters just to go for an easy kill.do that to the a20 and it will be the same uselessness as the il2 now.if thats the case then all bombers should have the f3 taken away.
So the gamey aspect for the Il2 was taken away and it is now only used as intended?
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bombers should have f3 just an opion ie lanc,17,24s ,29,26
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One potential solution to the F3 debate might be to change the view system in planes with crews to allow a directional view to come from the position with the best view in that direction. For example, if you're flying a B-17 and want to look back, moving your hat to the rear view gives you the view from the rear gunner's seat. Down would be from the ball turret, etc etc. This eliminates the gamey aspects of F3 mode, limits views to what could be seen from any particular plane (no straight down from a 110), and still allows the pilot of a plane with a crew some (not all) of the advantages of having a crew observing from different positions.
The balance that has to be maintained is the SA advantage that a crew provides. In the bigger bombers like the 17, the crew provided almost instantaneous SA all around the bomber. Even F3 mode cannot match that. In a 2 person craft like the Bf 110 or Il-2, the rear gunner provides additional SA not available to a single seat plane, but less than F3 offers in game.
I think even this small additional requirement turns what should be an advantage (extra eyes reporting) into a disadvantage (having to change positons and being limited in how you can maneuver while away from the pilot's seat).
Regards,
Hammer
This.................. plus a game architecture that full realises the difference between level bombing and low level attack bombing
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what makes the A20 so resistant compared to other twin engined planes?
Left side armor is way too thick :noid
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F3 for any position except the pilot is fine.
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Take away the ability to shoot while in F3 mode. That's the only change I think needs to be made. It still allows the extra Situational Awareness that additional crew members would grant, but takes away the arcadey element of shooting while outside of the plane.
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How about you get in a A20 and learn to fly it... then quit complaining. I've been utilizing the plane more and more after getting molewhacked by Cobia in MW. Rather than complaining that the plane does things it shouldn't, or is unfair and the only possible way was by them using F3 mode which also makes the a great pilot...?
Seriously... I got angered by K4's seeming to have unlimited E in the vert... so I learned to fly one and replicate it, and see what and when someone is working me. I was beside myself that an A6M could possibly do some of the things I thought I saw it do... but it turns out, I was being an idiot, and I learned a new manuver while I was checking it out.
Earlier this week, I killed a P51 and a Spixteen in an A20. I wasn't hoping to dogfight, but they engaged me, and both died screaming flaming deaths because they were idiots, not because of F3 mode. You should record your fights versus the A20 and figure out what YOU are doing wrong to end up dead...
don't blame F3 mode, the best it can do is ruin a gun angle on a poorly staged attack, it doesn't make someone a better pilot, and it definately doesn't make their guns shoot at different angles, or add jets or anything. Quit crying and start flying.
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I would like the game to black out the screen of the player in the bomber when I am around 1k away and enable autopilot so he flys nice and straight for me!!!! :banana: :banana:
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I was talking about this very thing the other day.
I think a good solution would be so that F3 is only available in a non-pilot position. This is what F3 represents, while the pilot is driving, the crew does the "looking."
Or more simply, disable F3 in pilot position.
Probably even suggested before and maybe answered, but I'm too lazy to use search atm. :old:
A less complex solution is to simply disable the nose guns when in F3....
And for the record, in an A-20G, I shoot as well or better using F3 and can maintain a tracking solution for a deflection shot on aircraft that would otherwise be too far beneath the nose to see from the cockpit. You should only be able to shoot or bomb while in the cockpit. Same argument gos for other bombers with bombsights. Only be able to drop when on the bombsight...
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You should only be able to shoot or bomb while in the cockpit. Same argument gos for other bombers with bombsights. Only be able to drop when on the bombsight...
+1
That would stop a lot of the whines, Widewing. What would they complain about then? :devil
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I stopped reading at Loose.
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I stopped reading at Loose.
You should get over this phobia of yours
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So the gamey aspect for the Il2 was taken away and it is now only used as intended?
its no more gameyer than being able to up a formation of bombers....is that realistic?
no its not...but the only chance a bomber has is to have a formation right?
same as il2 and a20...only chance they have in this game is by having the extra SA ability of the f3 mode.
now that f3 was taken away from the il2s...the are hardly used...it will be the same with the a20.
thats the point im making as well as they should disable formations for bombers.
if you want a formation then you should have to have others up a bomber and fly in formation with you,everyone whinning realistic...well thats realistic.
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Remove it. +1
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you cant just remove it because it goes some way to addressing the SA you get from multiple crew members. removing it would essentially be the same as modelling blindfolds for all the crew members and only allowing one to remove the blindfold at a time.
replace it with something more realistic, sure.
I cant see any reason at all to be able to shoot or drop bombs in F3 though (although I suspect hardly anyone does this.)
btw: if youre regularly losing dogfights to bombers, you need to get some training. and be thankful the guys who fly em alot dont prefer late war monsters as their usual ride ...
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Take away the ability to shoot while in F3 mode. That's the only change I think needs to be made. It still allows the extra Situational Awareness that additional crew members would grant, but takes away the arcadey element of shooting while outside of the plane.
I like the idea of disabling the ability to fire in F3 . I fear doing away with with F3 views in the A20. My beloved Stuka, would be next on the chopping block. :D Like a previous statement above I'de be interested in a stuka with 20mms and no F3. As it is right now getting A2A kills in a stuka for me are sheets and giggles. With 20mms it could become a sport. :devil
:salute to the A20 dogfighting tards
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I stopped reading at Loose.
Should A20 lose its F3 mode? - Fixed
:rofl Finally, an accurate criticism :aok Maybe I should "tighten" up my grammar :confused:
Although not the fastest or longest-ranged in its class, the Douglas DB-7 series distinguished itself as a tough, dependable combat aircraft with an excellent reputation due to its speed and maneuverability. In a report to the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (AAEE) at RAF Boscombe Down, test pilots summed it up as "has no vices and is very easy to takeoff and land... The aeroplane represents a definite advantage in the design of flying controls... extremely pleasant to fly and manoeuvre."[1] Ex-pilots often consider it their favorite aircraft of the war due to the ability to toss it around like a fighter.[2] Its true impact was that the Douglas bomber/night fighter was extremely adaptable and found a role in every combat theater of the war and excelled as a true "pilot's aeroplane."[3]
Above quote from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-20_Havoc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-20_Havoc)
you cant just remove it because it goes some way to addressing the SA you get from multiple crew members. removing it would essentially be the same as modelling blindfolds for all the crew members and only allowing one to remove the blindfold at a time.
replace it with something more realistic, sure.
I cant see any reason at all to be able to shoot or drop bombs in F3 though (although I suspect hardly anyone does this.)
btw: if youre regularly losing dogfights to bombers, you need to get some training. and be thankful the guys who fly em alot dont prefer late war monsters as their usual ride ...
RTHolmes, I find that folks here (including you) are missing my comparison to the iL2. To use your own arguement for SA from multiple crewmen, the A20 had 3 crewmembers how many did the iL2 have? Your assumption that hardly anyone uses F3 mode to gun, will have no proof for or against that arguement. The only thing we have left is that it is available to track otherwise hidden attackers/ targets.
As for me personally regularly losing to A20s, I avoid them like the plague. I do on occassion go in to strafe one that is attacking friendlies, especially on an attempted base defense or capture. So please don't make this about me complaining that someone else has a toy that I am jealous of. I again ask, why did HTC decide to remove F3 from iL2s and leave it for A20s (add any other light/medium bomber-- SBD, TBM, D3A)? And now to make it clearer I add this question, "What has the impact been on the number of iL2 sorties?"
As far as my suckage and need for training, that is a given. I welcome any opportunity to join Rolex and FLS in another great session in the TA :salute It is possible that a change in approach in gunning for A20 might help, especially targeting wings as opposed to fuselage. Good luck with that, squirmy :joystick: creatures that they are.
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Well... A while back I was in a P-39 and ran into a big base take attempt trying to hit one of the more secluded bases in the mountain ranges between countries in the LWA... I ended up bagging 4x A-20Gs and a few others I think (7 total landed). So clearly not everybody is abusing F3.
I don't think it's a rampant plague that needs addressing now, but as a general discussion of F3, I think what we need is this:
On planes with multiple crews, from the pilot's seat you can hit and HOLD the view direction you want to save a custom viewpoint, then WHILE holding that view direction you can jump to gunner positions (don't let go of the key!) and save that. Then when you are flying and hit that view, you will "see" from your gunner position while still flying, BUT you only have that range of view motion that is allowed.
It just simulates the communication going on, but without adding F3 to the mix.
So a B-17 pilot might set their rear view to the ball gunner looking backward, for example, if he wants to keep an eye on his lower 6 o'clock. He might set his rear-left view to be from the left waist gun, because his copilot's seat blocks his view.
That's what I think would be the best middle ground. How HTC might implement this I don't know, but it would be cool.
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Should A20 loose it's F3 mode
Everybody cut loose, Footloose, kick off your Sunday....
shoose? :headscratch:
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I think what we need is this:
etc ...
thats exactly the way I would do it :aok
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I stopped reading at Loose.
Well that just don't make no cents....er...since... scense... :headscratch:
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This topic dun R-U-N-N-O-F-T
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I should have also said: until theres a tweaked view system like krusty outlined imo A20s should keep F3 just as IL2s should have kept F3.
the bulkhead(s) between the pilot and gunner in these planes means the AH pilot without F3 cant get as good SA as the RL planes did with gunners and comms. the mossie and 110 dont need it because the pilot and gunner/navigator are under the same canopy so their views are pretty similar.
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On the original post:
No, the A20 has enough crew members to warrant the use of F3 view. If you can't kill one it's not the A20's fault.
On the rest of this mess:
How about we leave F3 view as it is on the current bombers? There is nothing wrong with the system as it is now and I would rather HTC concentrate their efforts on giving us new bombers rather than making an arbitrary view system that would be just as a gamey as the one we have now.
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Did cobia own someone repeatedly? Lol
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No way to view backwards. F3 is a handicap for to rear views.
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Stang,
Who the heck is Cobia??? I wish that there was an age limit or IQ test for posters, (that went beyond grammar of course).
I keep reading BS about someone being owned. Seriously, I thought adults played this GAME. If you cannot comprehend a descent discussion about comparison between the iL2 and the A20 then please go along with your peanut butter and jelly fingers and troll somewhere else.
Topic: Should A20 lose its F3 mode as did the iL2? -- Fixed
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Cobia is excellent in A-20's (and other attack aircraft).
In fact, Cobia -- please fly with us Luftwaffe guys in Enemy Coast Ahead (the upcoming scenario starting mid November)!
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That was my thought Stang ...just like il2 ...its not fair if I try and pick. Some people need to find better things to worry about in life. <It's a GAME> :joystick:..... :neener:
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They should Perk the Spit XVI
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They should Perk the Spit XVI
Perking the third most common fighter in the game seems silly without perking the first and second most common, no?
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Perking the third most common fighter in the game seems silly without perking the first and second most common, no?
and while they're at it, they should probably disable bombs within 25 miles of V bases so we can GV without getting bomb****ed. I hate bomb****s.
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It just seems to me that if you are asking to remove F3 from all planes (bombers included) you are asking that no one fly bombers anymore. Because no one would. They would become easy targets for people who just want to fly fighters. If you could see from all positions on the plane at one time... sure... lose F3... oh wait.. thats what F3 is supposed to simulate.
While we are at it... lets get it of refuel rearm... or make it take 30 minutes instead of 30 seconds. Lets also get rid auto ack since there should have to be someone in the gun for it to shoot. Lets get rid of vehicle spawns... make them drive all the way across the map. Lets get rid of autotakeoff, and stall limiter... so only people who are already good at flying without them can play the game... no need for new players right? Let's make guns jam, and engines malfunction and control surfaces just fail randomly during flight because of lack of maintenance.
Lets make all planes taxi from the hangar... turn on collisions... and turn killshooter off.
Because if the argument for removing F3 is that it isnt realistic... then there are a lot of aspects of this GAME that arent realistic. Sorry for the rant... but I am just tired of this same old topic, and the same tired old arguments. F3 is there on bomber aircraft for a reason... leave it there and learn to deal with it.
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It just seems to me that if you are asking to remove F3 from all planes (bombers included) you are asking that no one fly bombers anymore. Because no one would. They would become easy targets for people who just want to fly fighters. If you could see from all positions on the plane at one time... sure... lose F3... oh wait.. thats what F3 is supposed to simulate.
While we are at it... lets get it of refuel rearm... or make it take 30 minutes instead of 30 seconds. Lets also get rid auto ack since there should have to be someone in the gun for it to shoot. Lets get rid of vehicle spawns... make them drive all the way across the map. Lets get rid of autotakeoff, and stall limiter... so only people who are already good at flying without them can play the game... no need for new players right? Let's make guns jam, and engines malfunction and control surfaces just fail randomly during flight because of lack of maintenance.
Lets make all planes taxi from the hangar... turn on collisions... and turn killshooter off.
Because if the argument for removing F3 is that it isnt realistic... then there are a lot of aspects of this GAME that arent realistic. Sorry for the rant... but I am just tired of this same old topic, and the same tired old arguments. F3 is there on bomber aircraft for a reason... leave it there and learn to deal with it.
This +1 :aok
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AKP, the point of F3 isn't that it's unrealistic, it's that it presents a significant SA advantage over just looking out the windows, and when used in "light bombers" to dogfight it's very much like cheating. I can vouch for this, as for many years I played in the HTH arenas with 99% of folks flying in F3 mode. I got to know it myself before sticking with F1 mainly.
Your argument takes it to the far extreme. There is middle ground, and the entire game is a balance of realistic simulation and gameplay concessions.
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its no more gameyer than being able to up a formation of bombers....is that realistic?
no its not...but the only chance a bomber has is to have a formation right?
same as il2 and a20...only chance they have in this game is by having the extra SA ability of the f3 mode.
now that f3 was taken away from the il2s...the are hardly used...it will be the same with the a20.
thats the point im making as well as they should disable formations for bombers.
if you want a formation then you should have to have others up a bomber and fly in formation with you,everyone whinning realistic...well thats realistic.
I'd hazard to say that IL2 use has gone done more due to the inability to up it when the fighter hangers are down than due to the loss of F3.
I don't recall alot of people using the IL2 as a fighter before and those that did were the ones using F3 to push negative Gs to get an overshoot and kill you as you go by.
Why it can't still be done without F3 is a mystery. :noid
wrongway
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Thanks wrongway, I agree that iL2 losing its bomber hangar status did reduce it's usage after the Fighter Hangars were brought down on a field attack. With that said, I feel the comparison has run its limits. Although the A20 may handle like an attack plane, I could not invision it losing its bomber classification.
Now, that wrongway has pointed this out, I wonder if there could ever be a compromise in the case of the iL2? What I am asking, should the iL2 regain its F3 mode but still be classified only as an attack aircraft (still unable to spawn from bomber hangars)?
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I agree - F3 should be disabled for all aircraft in the main arenas.
Infidelz.
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AKP, the point of F3 isn't that it's unrealistic, it's that it presents a significant SA advantage over just looking out the windows, and when used in "light bombers" to dogfight it's very much like cheating. I can vouch for this, as for many years I played in the HTH arenas with 99% of folks flying in F3 mode. I got to know it myself before sticking with F1 mainly.
Your argument takes it to the far extreme. There is middle ground, and the entire game is a balance of realistic simulation and gameplay concessions.
I know it was extreme... it was meant to be. It just seems like any time the removal of F3 is mentioned for the A20 (which I dont fly by the way)... or in the past the IL2, it spirals into "remove it for all aircraft"... which is just absurd... and just as extreme in my opinion.
I do fly the B25H a bit still (not nearly as much as I did when I first started playing)... but I use it for its intended purpose... ground attack. I do get quite a few air to air kills in it... but 99% of them are with the tail gun, on pilots why fly up my dead six and linger back there. Even the few air to air kills I get with the nose guns are all made sitting in the pilot seat in F1... and those are usually on people who try to HO me. In my case... the use of F3 in the B25H is for what I think it is intended for. To simulate the ability of multiple crew members to see around the aircraft... spotting ground vehicles which I can then turn towards and target using F1... or an incoming fighter that I can defend against by jumping into the tail gun. I am sure it's possible to gun effectively from F3... but I never took the time to try, partly because it seems silly, and partly because I am one of those that NEEDS a gunsight LOL.
My point was more in response to the "remove it from all aircraft" posts. However... I think the removal of any ability to gun or bomb while in F3 mode would be the answer rather than removing it from light bombers like the A20. I think most people would support that change... the only exception being the people who DO use F3 mode while firing.
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i think any plane in the bomber hanger should have F3. is it really that life changing that it does have F3? there are only a couple of guys that are any good with them anyway and they probably don't even use F3, leave it for the lesser players. why disadvantage everyone for the actions of a few guys?
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I'd hazard to say that IL2 use has gone done more due to the inability to up it when the fighter hangers are down than due to the loss of F3.
This.
A lot of the air kills by the Il-2 came from using the plane as a desperate last effort when the FH's went down and the field was vulched. It was the natural choice for that role, more because of it's armor and punch than due to F3. Now it's simply not available any more.
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Just remove f3 mode from the pilot position.
This changes nothing for the heavy buffs other than taking away the ability to fly at 2000 feet bomb****ing ground vehicles.
Then maybe we would see the ju88 flown more often using dive brakes.
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Just remove f3 mode from the pilot position.
This changes nothing for the heavy buffs other than taking away the ability to fly at 2000 feet bomb****ing ground vehicles.
Then maybe we would see the ju88 flown more often using dive brakes.
I get my visual lineups for bombing GV's w/ all bombers from lining up w/ things in my cockpit. You'll stilll get bomb****ed by a heavy buff at 2000 feet without F3... What'll be your excuse then?
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I've only been killed 4 times in my entire aces high career by heavy bombers performing the lancstuka routine.
No excuses needed.
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I get my visual lineups for bombing GV's w/ all bombers from lining up w/ things in my cockpit. You'll stilll get bomb****ed by a heavy buff at 2000 feet without F3... What'll be your excuse then?
bombing GV's is a very fun sport :D (mostly because of how the GVers react to it :lol)
on topic now, i'm on the fence about the whole F3 in A20s debate. on one hand, we know A20s didn't do this IRL, which, in my mind, classifies it as "gamey," but on the other hand, if a guy can achieve success throwing a bomber around in a dogfight, well then more power to him, right? :headscratch: since i can't decide, my vote would be to leave it as is. like it has been said earlier in this thread, if you can't beat an A20 in a dogfight, and you're flying a fighter, you best get some lessons. regardless of who is flying the A20.
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Find it funny people talking about realism here, people getting owned by a il2 wasn't real but neither was 30 planes setting up a field for a score vulch, or for that matter being dead a few hundred times in a month thats not real, were do you draw the line?
Its a game at the end of the day, you should be able to see an opponent in a game. I always found the il2 crying situation to be unreal how did players get lazy enough to make the il2 such a problem to kill? From the op comments I take it people are using it as the IL2 used to be and you are unhappy that people using it can see you coming and maneuver to avoid you killing them??
And here it is :rofl :rofl :rofl. I haven't played in a while but I suspect the changes to the IL2 have brought the A20 to the front of the class for base defence. It is really the only other ride that has the guns to be "quickly decisive" against the "realistic and much prefered" way most play of vulch vulch vulch :aok. F3 has always been a stickler and I have actually changed my position on this a couple times and I've come to a few conclusions about F3 and its use in AH.
#1- F3 view is much easier to pull lead and track targets under the nose, this makes F3 view very superior to even the fighters with the best views (at least in regards to the aquisition and tracking of your target)
#2- Only the best of players will be able to use F3 to any advantage, most cannot grasp the timing difference tween cockpit and F3.
#3- F3 DOES give very superior "situational awareness" compared to any plane that lacks F3
#4- Shooting in F3 "contrary to popular belief" is very very easy and in some respects superior to cockpit view
#5- The gameplay with its "horde and vulch" bases mentality requires some sort of plane or defense against them, the il2 and A20 fill to a limited degree this requirement.
I'm still torn on the issue but I'll say this- IF the gameplay could be altered to limit the silliness of being able to set up "riskless" vulches then I would support removing F3. The only reason there is vulching is because it is possible to "stack the deck" in favor of them. If ANY hangar could launch ANY vehicle or plane then the "would be" vulchers would have to be decisive in their intentions. I.E destroy and take the base OR stand off from the base and fight with overwhelming altitude and #s advantage! :aok
JUGgler
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Juggler, you are wrong on #2. It's very much a newbie tool. It gives you the best lead and best SA view (the camera is trailing the plan so you can even see things sideways or up/down without moving your view)
I disagree that the A-20 will replace the Il2... The instant snapshot 1-ping-kill cannons and the near invulnerability to gunfire made the IL2 unique. The A-20 doesn't quite handle or fly the same, also only have 6x50cal. It's not even in the same category, even if flown as a fighter.
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Juggler, you are wrong on #2. It's very much a newbie tool. It gives you the best lead and best SA view (the camera is trailing the plan so you can even see things sideways or up/down without moving your view)
I disagree that the A-20 will replace the Il2... The instant snapshot 1-ping-kill cannons and the near invulnerability to gunfire made the IL2 unique. The A-20 doesn't quite handle or fly the same, also only have 6x50cal. It's not even in the same category, even if flown as a fighter.
We will agree to diagree on #2 , maybe I should have said F3 view being used by bombers as fighters, only the best will have success!:salute
The second point, I meant the A20 is the next best tool with F3 for base defence since the change to the il2!!
JUGgler
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well Im sure we can compromise and simply disable fireing in F3 mode.
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Jugler, It's 10x easier in F3 mode... A 2 weeker can aim with precision and drop bombs with perfect accuracy because of the visibility offered. It's not about the skilled ones succeeeding, it's about every player no matter how green succeeding... It's really that easy to get stuff done in F3 mode. There's a reason the newbies in HTH land used it as a crutch as much as they used the lead computing gunsight.
Did you see the video I put up of me killing an F4U in the LWA with a bomber in F3 mode? I wouldn't have lasted 2 turns in F1 view only.
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Jugler, It's 10x easier in F3 mode... A 2 weeker can aim with precision and drop bombs with perfect accuracy because of the visibility offered. It's not about the skilled ones succeeeding, it's about every player no matter how green succeeding... It's really that easy to get stuff done in F3 mode. There's a reason the newbies in HTH land used it as a crutch as much as they used the lead computing gunsight.
Did you see the video I put up of me killing an F4U in the LWA with a bomber in F3 mode? I wouldn't have lasted 2 turns in F1 view only.
I'm fully aware of the advantages of F3 view, my alter ego being the Boston Strangler and the frequenter of the FU88 and all! F3 improving your gunnery and SA is not the same as knowing what to do with planes the likes of the JU88, Boston, A20, il2 etc etc. The angles, timing, flap use and energy conservation are very much reserved for those who know what to do with them! <-- This is my point!
JUGgler
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I guess I just disagree and will leave it at that. IMO you don't need to know the timings and tricks if you can see it all and be purely reactionary.
On with the debate!
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I'm really not concerned with the advantages of F3 mode vs other planes.
My commenting is geared toward heavy buffs using views outside the plane to bomb targets they would never have seen with a realistic view.
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Well... that's another area I suppose. The heavies do need to have enhanced visibility... but after a certain point I think they have TOO much view. There's no blindspots anymore. No historical weaknesses in these bombers. You can't even sneak up under a Lancaster, below a B-26 or so forth.
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I think most poepl realize the value and essential role f3 plays in multi-crew craft.
It's all about the guns (or bombs;) disabling firing resolves the main issue of contention and allows F3 to better fit it's design purpose. imho.
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maybe F3 should be from a vantage point connected to the plane. Meaning when in F3 you are seeing a view as if you were say centerline on top of the fuselage or centerline on bottom of fuselage. This would do 2 things #1 allow planes that had no views from their underside to be restricted and whichever mode you're in the actual plane intself would be restricting some portion of view ie: from the top view you would not be able to see below or in a progressive cone spreading downward and outward from the plane. Ofcourse these views would not be able to be adjusted by F10! each view "looking away from the plane" would be unrestricted but you could not see thru or past the wings and fuselage without changing F3 views. F3A and F3B :aok for unrestricted nose or tail views, you could merely get in the nose or cockpit or tail gun if applicable! And no shoosting from either view! This would still give excellent visibility with reasonable restriction and management requirements!
In other words F3 would be hemisphere specific!
JUGgler
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Yes!... it should be removed from the MA.
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We will agree to diagree on #2 , maybe I should have said F3 view being used by bombers as fighters, only the best will have success!:salute
The second point, I meant the A20 is the next best tool with F3 for base defence since the change to the il2!!
JUGgler
I have to disagree with your premise. A20 has moved to the forefront because the IL2 requires a fighter hangar to up when the base is vulched. I've quit using them because I find the A20 and Hurricane IID to be more difficult to assault GV's with, and thus more fun for me. The A20 is simply one of the better armed bombers in the game as far as the forward arc goes, and is semi-manuverable. I can almost guarantee that if the A20 was moved to a FH, without ridding itself of F3, you'd see a drop and people would complain less because their vulch is that much easier. As a secondary, you would also see the B26 most likely fill the same roll and REALLY piss people off with it's rear gunnery....
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on one hand, we know A20s didn't do this IRL, which, in my mind, classifies it as "gamey," but on the other hand, if a guy can achieve success throwing a bomber around in a dogfight, well then more power to him, right? :headscratch: since i can't decide, my vote would be to leave it as is. like it has been said earlier in this thread, if you can't beat an A20 in a dogfight, and you're flying a fighter, you best get some lessons. regardless of who is flying the A20.
The Russians used the A20 as a fighter had several squadrons. Granted night fighters from what I have read it seems though they did do some dog fighting.
Just because the western allies did not see it for a fighter the eastern allies thought otherwise.
Only wish the Russians documented more on this plane I think there is a chapter missing with the history & capability's of the A-20.
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Yes it should for no other reason than to make it that much harder to bomb**** in it.
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Yes it should for no other reason than to make it that much harder to bomb**** in it.
Never have been able to hit anything in F3 mode.
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The Russians used the A20 as a fighter had several squadrons. Granted night fighters from what I have read it seems though they did do some dog fighting.
Just because the western allies did not see it for a fighter the eastern allies thought otherwise.
Only wish the Russians documented more on this plane I think there is a chapter missing with the history & capability's of the A-20.
Here is an example. With a Boston no less,it's possible that the gunners got them it doesn't really say.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp%3FHero_id%3D2470&usg=ALkJrhiQjv1ZOvfp2av4oI7pyGQXYXbTaA
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I suspect the changes to the IL2 have brought the A20 to the front of the class for base defence.
That and the fact you can't roll an il when the fighter hangers are down. What choice besides the a20 do you have when only bomber hangers are up?
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That and the fact you can't roll an il when the fighter hangers are down. What choice besides the a20 do you have when only bomber hangers are up?
Have you ever try to wrestle a good stick flying a D3A or SBD? Let me tell you there are plenty of options. These are concerns, no less, because of the base capture procedure that we have become familiar with in the game. I posed this question about the comparison to the iL2 for reasons that I stated above and yes, newz someone else had made your point and somewhat softened my opinions on the matter. I can't forsee the A20 losing its bomber hangar status, as did the iL2.
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if the A20 was moved to a FH, without ridding itself of F3,
Why should the a20 receive treatment that was not afforded to the il?
If the il-2 is a fighter I'll eat my hat!
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Flying an Il2 from Capped Airflields w/o any Ord and w/o F3 mode as an experiment, I was able to rack up a nearly 3/1 KD spread in the plane, and I am nowhere near one of the better sticks in this game. I don't think F3 will fix any of the complaints people have, because fact of the matter is, there are still people who lose P51-D vs. Il2 out there...
Late War Tour 141
Kills by wil3ur in an
Il-2 by model type
Model Type Kills Percent
A6M5b 2
Bf 110C-4b 1
Bf 110G-2 1
F4F-4 1
F4U-1A 1
F4U-1D 4
F6F-5 4
FM2 1
Fw 190A-8 1
Fw 190D-9 2
Fw 190F-8 1
Il-2 1
P-40C 1
P-47N 2
P-51D 4
SeaFire 3
Spitfire Mk XVI 1
Total 31
LVTA2 8
LVTA4 1
M-18 4
M-3 1
M4A3(75) 1
Panzer IV F 1
Panzer IV H 8
T-34/85 3
Wirbelwind 2
Total 29
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I am yet another person who has an opinion on this matter.
My opinion shall follow:
This entire thread is pointless and only comes about due to players getting spanked by a medium bomber and not being able to take it.
thank you for letting me join in
carry on
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Talk about pointless..... should I add clueless?
I am yet another person who has an opinion on this matter.
My opinion shall follow:
This entire thread is pointless and only comes about due to players getting spanked by a medium bomber and not being able to take it.
thank you for letting me join in
carry on
And everybody has an opinion..... A simple look at my stats will deal in facts instead of insertion of your own reality.
Late War Tour 141 Statistics for ChiLLi
Model Type Kills In Kills Of Killed By Died In
A-20G ----- ----0 ----3 ------ ----3 -------0
^^^^
How is being bombed by an A20 3 times during an entire tour count as being spanked?
Such misinformation from a trainer after I was pointing out how helpful they were. :x
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My heart bleeds for all the poor players getting spanked by the uber A20.
(http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/assets_c/2011/06/lebron-tiny-violin-thumb-400x300.gif)
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Chilli,
you talk of misinformation and then you base your whole counter point on one single tour?
Perhaps you got spanked six months ago and you still are smarting from it?
It only takes one spanking to form a life long grudge in some cases.
My opinion does not count as information either, it counts as my opinion.
S!
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Perhaps the attacks on me and others who posted and the insertion of your opinions about posters motives rather than indulging in the debate over why iL2s lost their F3 mode and if the A20 is comparible.
Again if you or Grizz would like to check my stats feel free. I went back 4 or 5 months and none of what you say is true. Previous tour than posted killed 5 was killed by A20 once. Rolling back another k=3 d=2, back another tour oooh I must have gotten spanked; k=0, d=1, and again rolling back woot... this is freakish, I got a kill in the A20 and didn't kill any or get killed by any.... :headscratch:
If what you guys (not just you Mechanic) have been saying is true then, I must really :ahand suck at this game and might as well hang up my subscription. For the last time either debate the comparison of iL2 to A20 or just go troll somewhere else. The thread was dead and had to be revived by more of this nonsense. Wish I could lock it now. Thanks all of those who actually got the point and chose to make informative comments. :salute
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I am yet another person who has an opinion on this matter.
My opinion shall follow:
This entire thread is pointless and only comes about due to players getting spanked by a medium bomber and not being able to take it.
thank you for letting me join in
carry on
Never took you as a drama queen type. Just going with the latest trends? :headscratch:
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yes :aok
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You are all drama queens.
I'll withhold my opinion till a ransom of $485.62 is paid and received.
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You are all drama queens.
I'll withhold my opinion till a ransom of $485.62 is paid and received.
If we're negotiating ransom, I want proof of life! Give me an adjective that only your opinion would have on this topic!
:noid
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Hmm, Shuffler or AI Shuffler . . . ?
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Never took you as a drama queen type. Just going with the latest trends? :headscratch:
No sir, no drama majestics here. I am joining the debate, it's just that some people don't like what I say. Just a simple opinion. I personally believe the crusade to take away the F3 mode from the IL2 was derived purely from a grudge against the legendary IL2 menace, aka the player Ghi.
So, we took away the IL2's main advantage and looky here, another hanger queen that was used for a decade as a fun base defence aircraft. The anti-vulch IL2 out of the bomber hangar was a classic element of this game for so long but that got changed due excessive whines. Now the crusade for selective realism (still not satisfied with crushing the fun out of the IL2) are seeking to limit the abilities of a medium bomber that a small handfull of people have taken the time to master. Why? For realism? Come off it.
Anyhow....this is all besides the point of 'my opinion'. I said this whole thread is pointless. You know why? Because those who have mastered the Havoc as a fighter aircraft don't use F3 mode.
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No sir, no drama majestics here. I am joining the debate, it's just that some people don't like what I say. Just a simple opinion. I personally believe the crusade to take away the F3 mode from the IL2 was derived purely from a grudge against the legendary IL2 menace, aka the player Ghi.
So, we took away the IL2's main advantage and looky here, another hanger queen that was used for a decade as a fun base defence aircraft. The anti-vulch IL2 out of the bomber hangar was a classic element of this game for so long but that got changed due excessive whines. Now the crusade for selective realism (still not satisfied with crushing the fun out of the IL2) are seeking to limit the abilities of a medium bomber that a small handfull of people have taken the time to master. Why? For realism? Come off it.
Anyhow....this is all besides the point of 'my opinion'. I said this whole thread is pointless. You know why? Because those who have mastered the Havoc as a fighter aircraft don't use F3 mode.
I don't believe this Batty. But like I said, I've changed my tune on this issue a couple times and I think taking it away from the il2 was a mistake. IL2 should still have F3 untill the game mechanics are altered to not require its use as a base defender! It is silly as h3ll the way vulches are set up and equally as silly that the IL2 is the only reasonable way to fight back. The whole thing is just stupid. There should be 2 types of hangars, GV hangars and plane hangars period. If it flies it can up from any plane hangar, if it drives the GV hangar. This would do away with the "vulch set up" all together and force the "would be vulchers" or "would be base takers" to fully commit to something! If you're gonna vulch then deal with "reasonable" fighter planes that can up, If base take is the deal then smash the base to kingdom come and take it!
My $.02
:salute
JUGgler
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[/quote]
No sir, no drama majestics here. I am joining the debate, it's just that some people don't like what I say. Just a simple opinion. I personally believe the crusade to take away the F3 mode from the IL2 was derived purely from a grudge against the legendary IL2 menace, aka the player Ghi.
So, we took away the IL2's main advantage and looky here, another hanger queen that was used for a decade as a fun base defence aircraft. The anti-vulch IL2 out of the bomber hangar was a classic element of this game for so long but that got changed due excessive whines. Now the crusade for selective realism (still not satisfied with crushing the fun out of the IL2) are seeking to limit the abilities of a medium bomber that a small handfull of people have taken the time to master. Why? For realism? Come off it.
Anyhow....this is all besides the point of 'my opinion'. I said this whole thread is pointless. You know why? Because those who have mastered the Havoc as a fighter aircraft don't use F3 mode.
If the debate were pointless, your opinion about the nutering of the iL2 wouldn't have been flushed out. I was around when the iL2 was taken away from the bomber hangar and F3 mode removed. I knew of no such whining going on. Like many others, I have countless memories of defending bases in iL2s and loved that ability to gun a tank down in it.
What I DO take offense to is any suggestion that I am some newb that is plotting his revenge on all the elite Havoc pilots for kicking his butt. You were one of a number of posters that spouted that, so I gave you some stats that you are free to go and verify. Yet you went on to say that I must have been abused by an A20 in my childhood :lol (not in those words, but I wish to lighten things up a bit).
This is my best answer to the A20 question now that you and another poster have pointed that removing the iL2 from the bomber hangar did it in as a base defender when fighter hangars were taken down. The A20 could never be considered anything other than a bomber, and so on that basis alone it should not lose the F3 mode.
What has been a very GOOD POINT from the prior discussions in this thread, disabling main guns in F3 mode is less arcade game like.
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I fly the A20 sometimes and use it for bombing GV's and once empty go to fighter if needed. I do use the F3 view for SA but never once locking on....I could never hit anything. Just my 2 cents worth.
DuHasst
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No sir, no drama majestics here. I am joining the debate, it's just that some people don't like what I say. Just a simple opinion. I personally believe the crusade to take away the F3 mode from the IL2 was derived purely from a grudge against the legendary IL2 menace, aka the player Ghi.
So, we took away the IL2's main advantage and looky here, another hanger queen that was used for a decade as a fun base defence aircraft. The anti-vulch IL2 out of the bomber hangar was a classic element of this game for so long but that got changed due excessive whines. Now the crusade for selective realism (still not satisfied with crushing the fun out of the IL2) are seeking to limit the abilities of a medium bomber that a small handfull of people have taken the time to master. Why? For realism? Come off it.
Anyhow....this is all besides the point of 'my opinion'. I said this whole thread is pointless. You know why? Because those who have mastered the Havoc as a fighter aircraft don't use F3 mode.
I think this post would of been a much better first post. :salute
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No sir, no drama majestics here. I am joining the debate, it's just that some people don't like what I say. Just a simple opinion. I personally believe the crusade to take away the F3 mode from the IL2 was derived purely from a grudge against the legendary IL2 menace, aka the player Ghi.
So, we took away the IL2's main advantage and looky here, another hanger queen that was used for a decade as a fun base defence aircraft. The anti-vulch IL2 out of the bomber hangar was a classic element of this game for so long but that got changed due excessive whines. Now the crusade for selective realism (still not satisfied with crushing the fun out of the IL2) are seeking to limit the abilities of a medium bomber that a small handfull of people have taken the time to master. Why? For realism? Come off it.
Anyhow....this is all besides the point of 'my opinion'. I said this whole thread is pointless. You know why? Because those who have mastered the Havoc as a fighter aircraft don't use F3 mode.
Yes a good opinion at that. But my question is why does base taking need to be artificially defended against? Artificially tricking up certain planes seems like the worst answer to a base defense problem. If bases can't be defended to some reasonable satisfaction of the community, add another hangar, or more manned guns, or something along those lines.
When it comes to the planes I'm kind of a purist. They should have the capability that they would have had in real life, as close as such a thing can be modeled. If the maps have shortcomings that negatively affect game play, I'd vote for fixing the maps, not tricking up planes to compensate.
just me two cents. :salute
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I don't really care. It is helpful for spotting ground vehicles but thanks to the transparent material that we look through while flying I should still be able to find the gv's.
I did notice that the gunsight for the A-20s turret is upside down though.
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I was around when the iL2 was taken away from the bomber hangar and F3 mode removed. I knew of no such whining going on.
With this comment you have lost absolutely all credibility.
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To everyone with regard to my suggestion that being spanked by an A20 caused this thread:
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and then complain that it is uncomfortable.
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Yes it should loose it on the entire world and destroy everything...... :noid
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I think no planes should have f3 mode. People can look around by going to different gunner positions and get only the view physically available to people in the actual aircraft.
+1
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To everyone with regard to my suggestion that being spanked by an A20 caused this thread:
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and then complain that it is uncomfortable.
What :headscratch: Pardon me Yoda :rofl
Use the force one does. Talks in riddles one must. Spread utter nonsense and bring dishonor to the Training Corps one must not.
I put up my stats, and yet you cannot shut your trap on something that you are obviously wrong about but not MAN enough to admit it. Now, take a look at your own stats, because I did. Seems to me, that you might be out of touch.
I think that your work as a skinner is notable :salute Volunteering to serve on the training corps also admirable. :salute But some things maybe you need to be quiet about, or bring a valid arguement not false conjecture.
With this comment you have lost absolutely all credibility.
Who whinned? When, Where? Was this about ghi? This thread is the absolute first time I have heard anything of the such. Maybe Skuzzy locked the threads or I was too busy actually trying out HTC's latest toys online. If you say there was a mass uproar against ghi and the iL2, I guess I have to take your word on it. I just remember my then CO, Chaingun taking Jenks and I up in iL2s and showing us how we could kill tanks with the guns from above. It was the most fun that I can recall having in an attack aircraft. Chaingun was the master at it, by the time we had sighted one he was already in on it for the pop pop kill. So, if you say there was some whinning going on, HTC must really depend on the whine list to make his decisions (I doubt that very much).
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Whilst the original question may be valid the ensuing debate does seem to be becoming pointless............
Experten seem to claim that F3 is not required to fly these attackers at their optimum. Others seem to wish that F3 be removed as an option from these attackers
Between these two points of debate I see no objection to removing F3................ was one clearly defined somewhere? (do I have to read this all again?)
Or are the experten merely using the debate to (subtely?) remind us all how truely experten they really are .................. which I suppose is equally pointless.
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So, we took away the IL2's main advantage and looky here, another hanger queen that was used for a decade as a fun base defence aircraft. The anti-vulch IL2 out of the bomber hangar was a classic element of this game for so long but that got changed due excessive whines. Now the crusade for selective realism (still not satisfied with crushing the fun out of the IL2) are seeking to limit the abilities of a medium bomber that a small handfull of people have taken the time to master. Why? For realism? Come off it.
I think this is a very important point - that the IL2 was used fairly often in the past and now is almost never seen. What price realism? :(
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I think this is a very important point - that the IL2 was used fairly often in the past and now is almost never seen. What price realism?
Maybe it is used more as a ground attack plane than a base defense "fighter" now. Sounds appropriate.
Those players that used to use it as a fighter maybe now use Wirbles\M-16s or if the fighter hangers are still up...take up fighters! Oh no!
Perhaps those hypnotized by score liked to take it up when a base was overwhlemed by enemy planes, i.e. where being vulched is a near certainty. :old:
Respectfully, I vote keep F3 mode off on the IL-2. :salute
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Maybe it is used more as a ground attack plane than a base defense "fighter" now. Sounds appropriate.
sounds boring to me :neener: and in fact, it is
but at least it's more realistic
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F3 mode enabled in all bombers, including IL2... just disable the ability to fire any weapon (including secondary, i.e. dropping ords) while in F3 mode.
Leaves the SA element there, as F3 was intended, and removes the gamey aspect of using F3 to dogfight while outside of the cockpit/gunner position. If you wanna fire that weapon, you have to be sitting in that seat..........
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What :headscratch: Pardon me Yoda :rofl
Use the force one does. Talks in riddles one must. Spread utter nonsense and bring dishonor to the Training Corps one must not.
I put up my stats, and yet you cannot shut your trap on something that you are obviously wrong about but not MAN enough to admit it. Now, take a look at your own stats, because I did. Seems to me, that you might be out of touch.
I think that your work as a skinner is notable :salute Volunteering to serve on the training corps also admirable. :salute But some things maybe you need to be quiet about, or bring a valid arguement not false conjecture.
Well now, I have never made a decent skin in my life.
If you want me to explain my 'riddle', here it is.
'If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and then complain that it is uncomfortable.'
This means if you don't think you are whining because an A20 beat you up, don't defend yourself against a simple comment that was not directed at you.
I have no idea why you think I am bringing dishonour to the Training Corps. I have even less idea why you think checking a few months worth of stats makes any difference to a debate which can only be based on opinions. I will happily admit if and when I find myself mistaken.
From your reactions to my conjecture it leaves me with no doubt that at some point you were beaten by an A20 and disliked the fact. You are the only one here who is wearing the shoe.
F3 mode enabled in all bombers, including IL2... just disable the ability to fire any weapon (including secondary, i.e. dropping ords) while in F3 mode.
Leaves the SA element there, as F3 was intended, and removes the gamey aspect of using F3 to dogfight while outside of the cockpit/gunner position. If you wanna fire that weapon, you have to be sitting in that seat..........
+1
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F3 mode enabled in all bombers, including IL2... just disable the ability to fire any weapon (including secondary, i.e. dropping ords) while in F3 mode.
Simple, brilliant and perfect! +1
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It's nothing to toggle F3 and F1 seamlessly. Requiring F1 to fire guns would not reduce the abuse of the full surround vision that F3 gives you. Ghi's lame neg-G on the deck manuver would still be 100% replicatable.
The presence of F3 on the IL2 gave it a superhuman ability. That doesn't mean it deserved this. It doesn't mean that belonged in the game. The statement: "F3 was the IL2's only advantage, and it has been taken away" may be perfectly correct, but it doesn't negate the preceeding question of: "Does the IL2 deserve an advantage?"
HTC doesn't boost certain planes and nerf other planes just so they have some advantage. Otherwise spits' turning radii would be nerfed so other planes can "compete"...
IMO the IL2 was a bit of a rare duck in that the attributes in this game (attacker, F3, ups from BH instead of FH, soaks up multiple 37mm with no damage, can 1-ping-kill any fighter in the game) all congealed together to form a perfect storm of gaminess, and that is why the focus has been on the IL2. Comparing the A-20 isn't the same, because it is not this perfect storm of attributes that is being horribly abused.
If you want to argue the A-20 should lose F3 go for it (and I may agree!) but it does not compare on a 1:1 ratio with the issues we had with the IL2.
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F3 from any position except the pilot.
I'm not concerned with air to air but rather F3 being used by lancasters to bomb ground vehicles they would have to roll 90 degrees to see otherwise.
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F3 isn't an issue because of dive bombing lancs....
Frankly you don't need to aim when you're driving a lanc, man. Take the 4k, drop it anywhere within a mile, or salvo 14 and just drop a line in the sand. You don't even need to pinpoint. Using it on D3As, Ju87s, etc, is a far more important issue than in Lancasters.
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-1, its much easyer to bomb**** the spawn campers in f3 mode
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Well now, I have never made a decent skin in my life.
If you want me to explain my 'riddle', here it is.
'If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and then complain that it is uncomfortable.'
This means if you don't think you are whining because an A20 beat you up, don't defend yourself against a simple comment that was not directed at you.
I have no idea why you think I am bringing dishonour to the Training Corps. I have even less idea why you think checking a few months worth of stats makes any difference to a debate which can only be based on opinions. I will happily admit if and when I find myself mistaken.
From your reactions to my conjecture it leaves me with no doubt that at some point you were beaten by an A20 and disliked the fact. You are the only one here who is wearing the shoe.
One positive consideration of this thread is the number of posters, including yourself that are willing to see guns disabled from the F3 mode. Another consideration that posters brought up was the fact that iL2's are no longer located in the bomber hanger. So, I agree that the A20 should not be removed from the bomber hanger, which I would attach to retaining it's F3 mode (I learned something and have tried to move on).
MachNix was the skinner I had mistaken you for, and I stand corrected (the spelling is not even close ;) ).
Now if you are able to admit that in your original statement:
I am yet another person who has an opinion on this matter.
My opinion shall follow:
This entire thread is pointless and only comes about due to players getting spanked by a medium bomber and not being able to take it.
thank you for letting me join in
carry on
^^^ you are saying that, being spanked by an A20 was the reason for my post, then based on evidence that I provided to you, your assumption was false, since I was the OP who started the thread.
From the number of decent players posts that were positive and debated without throwing stones, my point of view has been swayed and we seem to agree on more than one point. I take that as a debate worth having.
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F3 mode enabled in all bombers, including IL2... just disable the ability to fire any weapon (including secondary, i.e. dropping ords) while in F3 mode.
Leaves the SA element there, as F3 was intended, and removes the gamey aspect of using F3 to dogfight while outside of the cockpit/gunner position. If you wanna fire that weapon, you have to be sitting in that seat..........
This is no real change as SA and what you do with SA is about 99.5% of any fight. The actual shoosting is a very small % of the fights.
Now puting a small delay, maybe 1 second tween switching and being able to shoost would begin to have an affect.
I think what this has always come down to is when certain planes are used in ways that we all know they were never used or rarely used for.
As a current user of F3 when I use these planes I know for a fact that shoosting is easier and SA is far superior to anything else, this does not make the planes performance better but it sure helps compensate for it!
Untill the play style can be overcome I think F3 should stay for these particular planes and be re-added to the il2
JUGgler
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When the crutch is abused to the point of Steroids in the MLB, that crutch should not be suffered.
You saying "It's awesome, it's super, the plane doesn't fly any better but it more than compensates for that F3, so let's put F3 back on the Il2" doesn't make any logical sense. It is exactly because it was mis-used to the point of public outcry (much like the chog usage many years back) that HTC took action. I'm glad they did in the IL2's case.
That doesn't mean HTC is going to perk the spit16 like they did the Chog. It doesn't mean they're going to remove F3 on the A20 like they did on the IL2. It does mean they made a call on a specific plane (all by itself, irrespective of the rest of the planeset) to balance a major issue happening in the game.
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Chilli, I did not even realise you were the OP when I made that comment, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by it. But that does not change the fact that my opinion is that this is essentially a cleverly worded whine thread. Even after all the pages here I can see no real way that removing the F3 view from the A20 will benefit you other than making it harder for A20s to kill you. If you don't like my opinion, ignore me.
Now...if you were talking about removing F3 from the Dueling Arena, I would be supporting you vehemently.
S!
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its funny how people complained about the Il2 in the first place... so what if they upped them to defend a base... if you want to attack the base, then make sure to bring enough ords to drop all the hangars not just the fighters.
Heck, when i vulch a field, not like i get the opportunity to do so often anyways, I welcome the people to up the IL2 and A20... they are fun to fight against and if you can aim and not try to ho every single plane like some vulchers try to do, they are very easy to kill.
This whole F3 view argument i think is retarded. The only people worried or complaining about the f3 use is the ones who only care about score. And if they only care about score, more than likely, they also only care about themselves in game and wont help others. I say if you are being beat by inferior plane and are trying to use the whole f3 argument as your excuse, then you need to go to another game because its not their fault, its yours for putting yourself in the position that they could even get a shot on you.
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it could take a bomber an hour to get to altitude. with f3 you have a chance to see the fighter coming at you. i say lose the icons all together rather than f3 mode
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it could take a bomber an hour to get to altitude. with f3 you have a chance to see the fighter coming at you. i say lose the icons all together rather than f3 mode
I heard icon range in WWII was 2k...
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I heard icon range in WWII was 2k...
i heard it was 1.5, but i'm not here to split hairs...
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Icons in WW2 were set to infinity (how do you do a sideways 8? hehe)
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World War 2 had far better graphics too.
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World War 2 had far better graphics too.
Not really, it was all in black and white.
*rimshot*
:bolt:
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Not really, it was all in black and white.
*rimshot*
:bolt:
It's true!
Here's proof! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGp4DvFEgh8)
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Not really, it was all in black and white.
*rimshot*
:bolt:
Del....
Don't make me whoop your B38 butt in my B25 again. :D
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/B38/KillingDel4WoopsLostAWing.png)
And no I didn't use F3 to make this shot. ;)
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:rock
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:banana:
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Del....
Don't make me whoop your B38 butt in my B25 again. :D
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/B38/KillingDel4WoopsLostAWing.png)
And no I didn't use F3 to make this shot. ;)
Whatever!!!! B25's should lose F3 view too!!!! We have poof that a bomber shot down a fighter!
DuHasst
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Whatever!!!! B25's should lose F3 view too!!!! We have poof that a bomber shot down a fighter!
DuHasst
Im pretty sure that always happened...
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Del....
Don't make me whoop your B38 butt in my B25 again. :D
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/B38/KillingDel4WoopsLostAWing.png)
And no I didn't use F3 to make this shot. ;)
Ya know, Beef, that shot reminds me of a fight from last week when the Bish parked their Shortbus (CV) right off one of our fields and shut down the fighter hangers.... I didn't feel like getting my A20 on, so I upped a B25H in case there were any LVTs (and there were :t ) and just sprayed the crap out of everything... amazing how that 25H will light up zekes! I think I got no fewer than 3 on each flight before they all swarmed me. Sure death, but it was fun!
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it could take a bomber an hour to get to altitude. with f3 you have a chance to see the fighter coming at you. i say lose the icons all together rather than f3 mode
I thought the issue was people using f3 to level bomb low alt in solid nose buffs like the A20 and 25H?
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I thought the issue was people using f3 to level bomb low alt in solid nose buffs like the A20 and 25H?
No, it's people complaining about their shots getting spoiled and a bomber getting on their 6 that happens to have 6 forward 50's in the nose. The only way someone could have possibly done it was because they are in F3 mode, and not possibly a bad angle, a poorly thought out attack, or the prowess of the pilot in the A20. If the A20 gets moved to the fighter hangar THAT will kill the plane, not the loss of F3 itself. What it won't do is solve the 'problem' of buff pilots being too good, and it'll merely push people into the B26 or B25 when hangars go down.
Can you imagine the complaining if they added the A26?
TEH BOMBERZ IS FASTUR THAN MY PONIEZ!!!! HAX!!!!
(http://www.deviantart.com/download/147076337/a26_douglas_invader_bomber_by_Sceptre63.jpg)
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No aircraft should have F3 mode available.
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Can you imagine the complaining if they added the A26?
TEH BOMBERZ IS FASTUR THAN MY PONIEZ!!!! HAX!!!!
(http://www.deviantart.com/download/147076337/a26_douglas_invader_bomber_by_Sceptre63.jpg)
355 is faster than the Pony?
Sorry, no. The guys expecting the A-26 to be a great and easy fighter will be horribly disappointed. The guys expecting an excellent attack aircraft that can, flown with great skill, play with fighters will be happy.
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No aircraft should have F3. Full stop.
:bolt:
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No aircraft should have F3. Full stop.
:bolt:
Give me full crew functionality such as con reports and auto gunners and then we'll talk.
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Warbirds spots enemy cons for you, right? Shouldn't AH be able to code some similar "virtual eyes" client-side, so that you get intercom text in your buffer... "P-51 low 4 oclock" "F4u high 12 oclock" etc? Just make a predetermined distance, make a predetermined visual angle, and if the plane enters that virtual "cone of view" it prints out the text for you?
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Shouldn't AH be able to code some similar "virtual eyes"
Nice idea! :aok
A simple AI generated check 6 will do. Does not have to be perfect because neither were spotters. Perhaps some light rules would be: if a con is 1k out or less and on an intercept trajectory give a check 6.
Of course the score obsessed and\or those that fly bombers in a "gamey" way will have none of this. :old:
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Nice idea! :aok
A simple AI generated check 6 will do. Does not have to be perfect because neither were spotters. Perhaps some light rules would be: if a con is 1k out or less and on an intercept trajectory give a check 6.
Of course the score obsessed and\or those that fly bombers in a "gamey" way will have none of this. :old:
At 1k out and closing the AI may as well not bother because by the time you locate the bogey he'll already be killing your bombers.
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At 1k out and closing the AI may as well not bother
I take it that your post was incomplete because you did not give your opinion on what range would work. Please go on how such an option might be made to work (range etc.).
Thanks for your thoughts. :aok
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Warbirds spots enemy cons for you, right? Shouldn't AH be able to code some similar "virtual eyes" client-side, so that you get intercom text in your buffer... "P-51 low 4 oclock" "F4u high 12 oclock" etc? Just make a predetermined distance, make a predetermined visual angle, and if the plane enters that virtual "cone of view" it prints out the text for you?
That is an excellent idea!
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As an after-thought, instead of just the notice, it could give the position doing the reporting, so there's no confusion jumping to different gunner positions.
#3: P-51 low 4 oclock
And also no reporting what you are already looking at. If there's a plane dead 12 oclock and you're in the pilot seat it wouldn't spam you with what you can see for yourself.
I'm sure there are plenty of ways to refine this idea. I don't know if it's the best idea, but it simply is for consideration.
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so incredibly complicated just to remove a simple view option.
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Too overly simple. Much like icons, F3 serves a purpose. You can't remove F3 without supplementing some other feature that does what F3 does.
That is: It gives you the benefit of multiple eyes all scanning the skies in different directions on planes with multiple crew and gunner positions.
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Too overly simple. Much like icons, F3 serves a purpose. You can't remove F3 without supplementing some other feature that does what F3 does.
That is: It gives you the benefit of multiple eyes all scanning the skies in different directions on planes with multiple crew and gunner positions.
why make a big convoluted change at all to something that isn't actually a problem? there is no game breaking issue here
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That is the debate. Apparently there is a game-breaking issue here, if the game is broken to the point that Il2s were being used (quite successfully) as base defenders and mixing it up with far more capable aircraft and coming out the victor because of F3.
So, considering the giant uproar for and against both sides of this issue, its ramifications for other planes, etc, I would say that's pretty darned game-breaking. Not as in the game won't run, but as in how people play the game and how they are voicing their opinions.
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That is the debate. Apparently there is a game-breaking issue here, if the game is broken to the point that Il2s were being used (quite successfully) as base defenders and mixing it up with far more capable aircraft and coming out the victor because of F3.
So, considering the giant uproar for and against both sides of this issue, its ramifications for other planes, etc, I would say that's pretty darned game-breaking. Not as in the game won't run, but as in how people play the game and how they are voicing their opinions.
Late War Tour 141 Statistics for wil3ur
Kills In Kills Of Killed By Died In
Il-2 99 2 1 40
Late War Tour 141
Kills by wil3ur in an
Il-2 by model type
Model Type Kills Percent
A6M5b 2 2.020
B-25C 1 1.010
Bf 109G-14 1 1.010
Bf 109K-4 1 1.010
Bf 110C-4b 1 1.010
Bf 110G-2 2 2.020
F4F-4 1 1.010
F4U-1A 2 2.020
F4U-1D 6 6.061
F6F-5 5 5.051
FM2 2 2.020
Fw 190A-8 1 1.010
Fw 190D-9 3 3.030
Fw 190F-8 1 1.010
Il-2 1 1.010
Ki-61 1 1.010
LVTA2 10 10.101
LVTA4 2 2.020
M-18 5 5.051
M-3 3 3.030
M4A3(75) 3 3.030
Me 262 1 1.010
Ostwind 1 1.010
P-40C 1 1.010
P-47-D40 1 1.010
P-47N 2 2.020
P-51D 4 4.040
Panzer IV F 2 2.020
Panzer IV H 16 16.162
SeaFire 3 3.030
Spitfire Mk XVI 2 2.020
T-34/85 5 5.051
Tempest 1 1.010
Typhoon IB 1 1.010
Wirbelwind 4 4.040
Yak-9U 1 1.010
99 Kills
You can check the other tours, this is not a plane I normally fly. However due to the amount of complaining about how F3 killed the IL2, I had to give it a shot. They're still deadly, still great for defending bases. The only thing that killed the IL2 as a base defender was moving it from the bomber hangar, which is usually left up. Since FH's drop, the A20 is the logical replacement as a bomber capable of mixing it up air to air. If you take the A20 away from the bomber hangar, you'll have people upping B26's for the same purpose.
What is more easy mode... fighting an A20 who uses F3 for SA, or squeeling about how F3 needs to be removed so you can have an easier time killing buffs?
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It’s not THE issue but it does contribute to it. The availability for F3 mode on the IL, Stuka, A-20s allows people an unrealistic amount of SA and line of sight. People use this to do things with the aircraft that would never have been attempted. It’s arcade-ish and detracts from what this game is all about.
I understand the arguments against realism and even agree with some of them. I also see why HTC has the game modeled the way it is but that doesn’t mean that there’s not another way to do it. I think Krusty’s suggestion would be a positive change and a small step towards improving the game play.
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This post reminds me of the Pre-Combat Trim Whines. There is nothing wrong with the system as it is now, it's a good balance of SA representing multiple crew position. We don't need some super complicated view system, we just need people to man up and admit they screwed up and lost to a bomber.
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I don't see it as a game breaking thing at all. Just an improvement.
Do you think some of those that are VERY polarized to keep F3 use it in a gamey way?
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There actually is a bit wrong with the system. Is totally removing it the answer? I don't know. I think it would definitely benefit from a reworking of the camera angle and position while in F3 mode. Move the camera in so that you're not showing anything above or below the plane in question without looking up or down that way. It's too all-encompasing with the 180-degree hemisphere of perfect SA because of the position and wide angle of the camera. I would say maybe even reposition the camera so that the spine and tail and wings of your plane take up a large chunk of the bottom of your screen. Same when looking back. You could adjust with F8 mode and so forth, but not so easily on the fly and fighting like a fighterplane in this mode would be greatly reduced, while maintaining the ability to see enemy planes further out that may threaten you.
So yes, there is something wrong, but no removing it may not be the answer. There are a number of suggest/ideas to help resolve the problem without removing the benefit. Just moving the camera is probably the easiest solution by far.
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Just moving the camera is probably the easiest solution by far.
Nice suggestion. :aok
There seem to be so many good ideas on how to improve this aspect of the game.
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Nice suggestion. :aok
There seem to be so many good ideas on how to improve this aspect of the game.
the simplest has been repeatedly suggested... can't fire guns in F3 mode.
This preserves the crew SA aspect and removes the primary complaint about F3 in the Il/A-20 ("buffs as fighters with an unfair line of sight (under nose) and ability to fire." This would also take away the advantages when going after Gv's - it's not hard strafe in F3.
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Give me full crew functionality such as con reports and auto gunners and then we'll talk.
:salute
Press a button and in 8 milli seconds you're in the tail gunner position. Take 3 seconds to scan the sky behind you from deck to 40K alt, and 4 miles behind the plane.
Press another button and you're in the top turret for another 3 seconds to scan the sky above the plane.
Press another button and you're in the ball turret for another 3 seconds to scan the sky below.
Press and you're back in the pilot seat.
9.024 seconds to get complete spherical awareness of a 4 mile radius around the plane.
There isn't a crew that ever flew any bomber that ever exsisted that could translate that quality of info to a pilot, over a squalk-box intercom in 9.024 seconds.
A fighter traveling 100 mph faster then your bomber will take 2 minutes and 3 soconds to close to within 1000 yards from 4 miles out. So all you have to do is make your 9.024 sec loop through the gunner positions once every 90 seconds and your covered. And if the Buff didn't have tail gunner, or belly gunner, than you should be blind to planes attacking from that position. In such cases F3 is providing the function of crewman that never exsisted!
This "SA in a bomber that the crew would have provided" excuse is the weekest of all excuses for needing F3 in a buff.
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it takes no time at all to be silent and let the pilot assume that thre is nothing to report....unlike having to actualy check a gunner possition and realise there is nothing to report there yourself. 9 seconds is more than enough time for a crew to report a contact to the pilot unless there is a con to report from every single viewpoint
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Too overly simple. Much like icons, F3 serves a purpose. You can't remove F3 without supplementing some other feature that does what F3 does.
That is: It gives you the benefit of multiple eyes all scanning the skies in different directions on planes with multiple crew and gunner positions.
Yet crew didn't have perfect views of the skies, more than often they were behind think glass, blocked by metal frames, wearing goggles, huddled in the freezing cold.
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Regardless, they all communicated as a team over intercom sometimes with a fire control coordinator telling them which attacks were coming in and from what angles (so that even if a waist gunner was on the other side of the attack, he could get a parting shot in as the enemy flew past).
Surely you must admit, warts and all that the combined vision and situational awareness of a bomber crew was far greater than just that of the pilot's seat?
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who the heck really cares in the first place?????
It's essentially a Boston 3 and it has eyes facing more than just forward by default. Lets give this topic a rest
PLEASE!
I think this is just another wirble envy thread.
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who the heck really cares in the first place?????
It's essentially a Boston 3 and it has eyes facing more than just forward by default. Lets give this topic a rest
PLEASE!
I think this is just another wirble envy thread.
:rofl
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I find it funny that the guys who spend so much time only talking about F3 mode for air to air are the same guys who I see using F3 to bomb CVs.
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who the heck really cares in the first place?????
It's essentially a Boston 3 and it has eyes facing more than just forward by default. Lets give this topic a rest
PLEASE!
I think this is just another wirble envy thread.
Evidently a number of people really care, hence the threads that are posted and grow quickly as this one did. If YOU don't care, don't comment and move on.
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it takes no time at all to be silent and let the pilot assume that thre is nothing to report....unlike having to actualy check a gunner possition and realise there is nothing to report there yourself. 9 seconds is more than enough time for a crew to report a contact to the pilot unless there is a con to report from every single viewpoint
yes but that's a bit of a null set answer isn't it. so we need F3 and all the lameness it provides in order to avoid a couple of 9 second trips around the bomber to look for enemies, because those trips are too much trouble? IF you really weight that on a scale does it come up even to you Bat? :salute
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yes but that's a bit of a null set answer isn't it. so we need F3 and all the lameness it provides in order to avoid a couple of 9 second trips around the bomber to look for enemies, because those trips are too much trouble? IF you really weight that on a scale does it come up even to you Bat? :salute
Lameness is in the eye of the beholder.
The funny part is that you are blinded to the fact that F3 is HiTech's thought-out and designed concept to compensate for a known weakness. It didn't get introduced on accident and doesn't remain because it is an oversight.
Despite F3 view, bombers of all types remain easy targets 95% of the time. Yet people allow themselves to be blinded by the 5% "problem" (which is also purely subjective) and think they have a right to harm further the other 95%.
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Also... setting up your views in cockpit helps a lot. Many planes have horrible views by default, but with a little tweaking, they're not bad. I find the IL2 is easier to see out of than many blue planes.
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yes but that's a bit of a null set answer isn't it. so we need F3 and all the lameness it provides
exactly what is this 'all the lameness it provides'?!?! seriously...I'd like to know what is such a big deal
can't remember seeing a Boston land any kills since that loudmouth JUGler was active :D so to my mind it's hardly flooding the arenas with gameyness or 'lame' exploiting of an unfair advantage
I understand it's not 100% realistic, but many things in this game aren't :devil
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You could always create a custom arena, disable F3 for all hangars, then challenge the guy you think is using F3 and beating you to a duel and see if he still wins... You may be suprised to see that the A20 has decent views and is still a very manuverable buff that's still a huge threat.
You'd do better to learn the moves that telegraph their lagrolls and hammerheads and how to defend against them. F3 is a tool, but without a skilled pilot, they just get a better view of their plane going down in flames.
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yes but that's a bit of a null set answer isn't it. so we need F3 and all the lameness it provides in order to avoid a couple of 9 second trips around the bomber to look for enemies, because those trips are too much trouble? IF you really weight that on a scale does it come up even to you Bat? :salute
I was only replying to your statement, but besides I do think that 9 seconds is way too long to waste when it wouldn't have had to be so arduous in real life. 9 seconds is a long time in a fight.
I just can't put A20 having F3 view even in my top 50 lame things that can be done in AH.
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What about f3 view only in turret position?
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Also... setting up your views in cockpit helps a lot. Many planes have horrible views by default, but with a little tweaking, they're not bad. I find the IL2 is easier to see out of than many blue planes.
You don't fly bombers do you? In all of the new bomber models you can't even move around the cockpit like you could in the old ones. On planes like the B25, B29, and the Betty you cannot sit or "move over" into the copilots seat and thus your view on that side is severely hindered.
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I was only replying to your statement, but besides I do think that 9 seconds is way too long to waste when it wouldn't have had to be so arduous in real life. 9 seconds is a long time in a fight.
I just can't put A20 having F3 view even in my top 50 lame things that can be done in AH.
It's 9 sec before you're in a fight. Once you're fighting you have to be in the gun positions [we're talking buffs now] anyway. So having to jump to gun positions to look for bandits is a non-issue. And as such is not an excuse for keeping F3 around. That was my point. :salute
Oh I never said it was in my top 50 lame things. ;)
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Honestly if HTC were to make a change I think the simplest one would be to remove the ability to fire guns or drop bombs from F3. Even though I'm a buff pilot through and through I still think that's a bit gamey. However, the removal of F3 view completely from all bombers would absolutely destroy them IMO.
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However, the removal of F3 view completely from all bombers would absolutely destroy them IMO.
Why is that Beefcake? Not trying to be argumentative, but I like flying bombers and jumping to the different positions and experiencing the mission from the various crew member's perspective. It's hard for me to see what so much better about F3 mode. :salute
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Then why take it away?
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Then (by the same logic) why keep it?
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because limiting the IL2 in the same way halved its usage and therefore lessened the fun to be had in the game as a whole by a fraction
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If it's usage was an artificially inflated game byproduct of a capability it never had to begin with, is it a problem to halve the usage?
You're saying its use was cut down.... So?
C202 doesn't see much use either. That doesn't mean you should enable F3 to artificially inflate its capabilities beyond what it should be.
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Why is that Beefcake? Not trying to be argumentative, but I like flying bombers and jumping to the different positions and experiencing the mission from the various crew member's perspective. It's hard for me to see what so much better about F3 mode. :salute
Well first of all I enjoy looking at my plane. Bomber climb outs can be long and boring and sometimes I just like to cam around the formation and look at the beautiful.
Another reason is busywork. F3 view cuts down on the amount of busy work I have to do as a buff pilot. Don't get me wrong I enjoy going into the top turret and slowly scanning around for cons, but when the poop hits the fan jumping from gun position to gun position doesn't work. What happens if I get attack by 2 cons and I manage to down 1 of them? I would then have to jump from gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to see if I could find the second fighter. Now IRL I'm sure one of the 30 men under my command would've seen it and would be able to call it, thus this is what F3 represents. And please don't say "get a gunner", I trust very few people to gun for me and I usually prefer to do the job myself.
It is my opinion that the F3 view system works fine as it is and does not be replaced with a more complex view system or removed at all. Removing F3 view would just simply create more busywork for the buff pilot and would GREATLY weaken the ability for bombers to defend themselves.
This post is mainly about people thinking the A20 having an unfair SA ability and because of this reason they want the whole system removed which I feel is absurd. Simply removing the ability to fire would solve all the problems.
Remember this is a game, not a flight sim. I want to have fun, not spend time jumping from gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to just to survive.
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Krusty, Vinkman: I think we're going in circles now. I've made my view known, as little as it's worth.
:salute
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Well first of all I enjoy looking at my plane. Bomber climb outs can be long and boring and sometimes I just like to cam around the formation and look at the beautiful.
Another reason is busywork. F3 view cuts down on the amount of busy work I have to do as a buff pilot. Don't get me wrong I enjoy going into the top turret and slowly scanning around for cons, but when the poop hits the fan jumping from gun position to gun position doesn't work. What happens if I get attack by 2 cons and I manage to down 1 of them? I would then have to jump from gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to see if I could find the second fighter. Now IRL I'm sure one of the 30 men under my command would've seen it and would be able to call it, thus this is what F3 represents. And please don't say "get a gunner", I trust very few people to gun for me and I usually prefer to do the job myself.
It is my opinion that the F3 view system works fine as it is and does not be replaced with a more complex view system or removed at all. Removing F3 view would just simply create more busywork for the buff pilot and would GREATLY weaken the ability for bombers to defend themselves.
This post is mainly about people thinking the A20 having an unfair SA ability and because of this reason they want the whole system removed which I feel is absurd. Simply removing the ability to fire would solve all the problems.
Remember this is a game, not a flight sim. I want to have fun, not spend time jumping from gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to gun to just to survive.
I can understand that. I'm not a big proponent of taking F3 away from Bombers. This is a side effect of AH attaching the view capability to the hangar the plane spawns from instead of the plane itself. [maybe that can be changed ;)]
I don;t feel F3 makes heavys artificially deadly, so I don;t think I would be in favor of taking it awy from them. But for planes used as dog fighters. I'm just a purist. When I'm attacking a plane I look to maneuver into his blind spots. F6F, F4U, Il-2, A20, are all very vulnerable to low six attacks. If someone is bombing gvs in A20 or Il-2 and I dive my 109 down to take him out, I will attack from the low six o'clock, and try to keep my speed up so I'm not a sitting duck on the deck. 109s are very sluggish at 450mph so I have to make a well executed attack run. Get speed, but don;t auger, level out with sluggish controls, in a good firing positions because corrections will be limitted. Hold fire until 400 or closer other wise hits with taters are sketchy. A second more and...The A20, or Il-2, rips a hard left turn that I can't follow right at the critical moment. How did he see me? oh wait he's reversing and even at 450 I can't out run his bullets.
Yes someone could have yelled check 6, or he could have heard me coming, and if so, he got a well earned kill by timing a perfect maneuver on bandit he couldn't see or judge distance and speed on. I salute him.
But 90% of the time, he sees me because the game cheats for him with F3 mode. I can adjust to the capability, but first I have to remember what planes have cheat mode and which ones don't. I keep asking myself, why is that something that should have to be learned? Why is F3 [during MA gameplay] in the game?
It just seems more logical, more consistant, normal, and more intuitive, to have A20 and Il-2 pilots learn to fly those planes within the actual visual capability of the plane, rather than everyone learn to adapt to cheat mode in a handful of select planes. But I am not going crazy over it. :salute
As a purist and gamey stuff like that ruins the framework that the competition is based on.