Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Traveler on January 01, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
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A tale of two spins:
Aircraft P38L,
Load out 75% fuel, 2 1000lb bombs, 10 rockets
Altitude: 5000,
Conditions: Power off, wings level at stall full left rudder applied,
Recovery : Full Right ruder applied to stop spin, back pressure released.
Aircraft recovery is normal.
http://www.mediafire.com/?rgk8lcdaxajc5uc spin left
Altitude: 5000,
Conditions: Power off, wings level at stall full right rudder applied,
Recovery : Full left ruder applied , back pressure released.
Aircraft failed to recovery.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ziepw2sw4cmnvp7
I performed this test 10 times. Different load out, flap settings, Gear up or down, I was unable to get the aircraft to recovery from a spin to the right in all tests.
Something not right about this. Comments, observations. Anyone.?
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I have not watched the films
but you mention nothing about pushing forward on stick to get nose down below horizon
you mention throttle off = correct,
you do not mention push stick forward/get nose pointed below horizon = missing from spin recovery routine,
you mention no back pressure??? <--- do not understand ( except you do not want aileron input except to help get nose pointed down ),
you mention Rudder use opposite of spin direction = correct ( just until spin stops )
back pressure to me implies that you are not pulling on the stick ( ie .. bring nose up ) ........ not sure if I am following your list of movements / routine for spin recovery, correctly by the way it is typed above, but it seems wrong to me
used to be an abbreviation for spin recovery .... but after all what I dranked last night I am drawing a blank right now, ROFL....... think it might have been STOP ( something like: S = stick forward T = throttle off , O = ??? mind draws blank , P = pull out ) <--- or something along them lines.........
TC ( I'll try and download the films in a lil bit.... is time to eat )
Happy New Year!
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O = opposite rudder
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O = opposite rudder
yep... I just had it pop in my head...... thanks PFDave :aok I even mentioned it in my post above, but couldn't connect it to STOP lol
ok back to the supper table
TC
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I'm a professional flight instructor that has many years of experience. I've taught spin recovery in real life in both military and civilian flight instruction. Powered and glider. Unlike the FAA, I’m a strong believer that all primary students should learn spin recovery and be able to demonstrate it. I’ have taught it for the last 30 years as part of the student pilot curriculum .
Student glider pilots according to the FAA curriculum for a glider rating must demonstrate spins and spin recovery , however, student pilots for powered aircraft must only demonstrate knowledge of spin recovery.
Perhaps that explains why far more powered students die in stall spin accidents then glider students.
Something else that you can also do in AH is to stall the aircraft press left ruder and the aircraft spins to the left, while keeping the stick fully back (stalled) stop the spin to the left by holding right ruder, and continue to hold right ruder so the spin starts to the right, at this point now apply left ruder and attempt to stop the spin to the right. It can’t be done. At least it can’t be done in the P38.
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I'm a professional flight instructor that has many years of experience. I've taught spin recovery in real life in both military and civilian flight instruction. Powered and glider. Unlike the FAA, I’m a strong believer that all primary students should learn spin recovery and be able to demonstrate it. I’ have taught it for the last 30 years as part of the student pilot curriculum .
Student glider pilots according to the FAA curriculum for a glider rating must demonstrate spins and spin recovery , however, student pilots for powered aircraft must only demonstrate knowledge of spin recovery.
Perhaps that explains why far more powered students die in stall spin accidents then glider students.
Something else that you can also do in AH is to stall the aircraft press left ruder and the aircraft spins to the left, while keeping the stick fully back (stalled) stop the spin to the left by holding right ruder, and continue to hold right ruder so the spin starts to the right, at this point now apply left ruder and attempt to stop the spin to the right. It can’t be done. At least it can’t be done in the P38.
I found when I did spins in gliders it was fairly easy as long as I kept my calm and went through the steps.
Basically nose down, rudder it out, level the wings, pull out.
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You can stop a spin to the right in the P-38L under the conditions you describe by bringing up a little power on the right engine while leaving the left throttle all the way back and using left rudder.
The stall to the right does seem to behave differently than the stall to the left, why I couldn't say but you can recover from it.
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Only plane I've had to cut the engine completely in to regain from a spin is the 110, for some reason the nose won't drop with the throttle back, but it falls like a stone when the engine is cut completely.
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You can stop a spin to the right in the P-38L under the conditions you describe by bringing up a little power on the right engine while leaving the left throttle all the way back and using left rudder.
The stall to the right does seem to behave differently than the stall to the left, why I couldn't say but you can recover from it.
What you are describing is not a correct model. Remember the P38 has counter rotating engines. It should not be necessary to bring up power on one engine, suppose the engine is out? Besides I can’t find any historical data that supports your assertion that asymmetrical power must be applied in the stalled Spin to the right .
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
Looking for input from other players with respect to their experience with P38’s spinning in to the right. If you have nothing to offer in that regard, what’s your point? My experience is what it is, nothing more. I’m just trying to gain informational insight. Do you have anything to offer?
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See Rule #4
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Looking for input from other players with respect to their experience with P38’s spinning in to the right. If you have nothing to offer in that regard, what’s your point? My experience is what it is, nothing more. I’m just trying to gain informational insight. Do you have anything to offer?
yes I do. The P38 is fine! the only thing I do not like about it or the way it flys is those darn auto-retracting flaps
I would think, someone with 30 yrs of instructing others how to fly or recover spins, that they would be able to recover from a spin in a flight sim
Soulyss seems to be able to, and you are so much more the man according to your resume you posted about your experience
did I offer you enough?
Viper
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yes I do. The P38 is fine! the only thing I do not like about it or the way it flys is those darn auto-retracting flaps
I would think, someone with 30 yrs of instructing others how to fly or recover spins, that they would be able to recover from a spin in a flight sim
Soulyss seems to be able to, and you are so much more the man according to your resume you posted about your experience
did I offer you enough?
Viper
Why the personal attack, I'm just looking for information. I don't know of anyone in the game recovering from a spin to the right in a P38. Would love to see the film.
What's your problem?
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See Rule #4
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I and squadies have noticed same in p-38 usually upon intense flite manuvers and we call it 'p-38 spin o death'...I have no quick access to seperate throttles so...down it floats..which seems conter to assym prop rotation and is a deffinete drifts to same side...for many tours...
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See Rule #4
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Obviously you aren't. That was totally uncalled for.
Obviously, you did not bother to read where I posted an apology to Traveler, Baldy.
or where I offered to try and recreate his tests to film and post to either back up his claim or possibly show recovery while spinning to the right
but that is ok
Viper
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i apologize for you thinking I have attacked you :headscratch: problem? no problem, it just seemed too funny that you posted your resume to describe something you found to be what you thought was a bug or wrong with Aces High P-38 flight model
let me find a place to post a film, and if I get time I will grab a P-38L? L model right? and do your power off stall and on purpose spin in both directions
what fuel load did you use? so I can try and recreate your exact scenario
no hard feelings, I should not have been so hard on someone with your stature I guess
:cheers:
Viper
Please point out to me where you think I said there was a bug with the Aces High P-38 flight model? I provided film and I asked for others to comment on what I was experiencing. I never said that there was a bug.
If you read the original post it states the conditions of my flight. But so there is no mistake, the aircraft was 75% fuel, 2 1000lbs bombs, and 10 rockets.
I entered a power off stall at 5000 feet. Spun to the right and was unable to recover using normal spin recovery procedures. All spins to the left can be recovered from.
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Yes Sir, it does my bad! I should have scrolled back up and re-read it
the Bug was my assumption of what you might be thinking, you never said bug. you just said that AH might have the P-38L FM wrong, indirectly speaking
and now I will go download your films. why did you not try it while being light 2 1k bombs and 10 rkts is a hvy load.
Viper
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Yes Sir, it does my bad! I should have scrolled back up and re-read it
the Bug was my assumption of what you might be thinking, you never said bug. you just said that AH might have the P-38L FM wrong, indirectly speaking
and now I will go download your films. why did you not try it while being light 2 1k bombs and 10 rkts is a hvy load.
Viper
Please don’t put words in my mouth. Please show me where I said there was a bug or that the AH flight model for the P38 has a problem.
I filmed the experience I was having and asked for comments. I may very well have a control configuration problem. Perhaps when I apply left ruder I’m not getting 100% of the ruder input. That’s why I posted my film and asked for others to comment. It’s not necessary for you to inject your assumptions.
I did contact Soulyss and he agreed with me that the P38 was next to impossible to recover in a right spin using normal spin recovery procedures. And incase you missed it. That’s my point. If you look at the P38 pilots manual you will see that Stall and spin recovery procedure were defined as Normal. That means you should be able to recover from a spin to the right with out adding power to one engine.
Viper, that’s that little snake in the grass, right?
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deleted for fear of the wrath of Skuzzy
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Yes Sir, it does my bad! I should have scrolled back up and re-read it
the Bug was my assumption of what you might be thinking, you never said bug. you just said that AH might have the P-38L FM wrong, indirectly speaking
and now I will go download your films. why did you not try it while being light 2 1k bombs and 10 rkts is a hvy load.
Viper
I did fly the test in different load configurations and with different flap settings and with gear up and down. Also different fuel loads. No difference in the result. I posted the load outs for the film that I published.
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I did fly the test in different load configurations and with different flap settings and with gear up and down. Also different fuel loads. No difference in the result. I posted the load outs for the film that I published.
ok, just made a film testing P-38L 75% fuel loadout 2 1K bombs and 10 rkts
power off stall at 5,000 ft gear up / no flaps used (I did use flaps on 1 of the spins, I let the spin really spin 3 rotations before trying to recover, and got really close to ground so used flaps to keep from pancaking)
cut throttle, full stick backpressure full righ t rudder to induce spin
to recover - full stick forward , full left rudder to counter spin, spin stops increase throtttle to pull out
did it several times
did the spin to the left several times as well. I had no problems. I did not have to use an small amount of throttle on right engine only.
are you using combat trim? I was using manual trim , trimmed out to level flight speed of 300 mph ias
I need to find place to host this film
Viper
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what is a Viper? its a venomous snake, one of them slithering lil devils that pack a whallop when they bite! j/k
but seriously. you can use the raw data in the controls section to see if you are having problems with your rudder axis going full left, I am pretty sure
Viper
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deleted for fear of the wrath of Skuzzy
Tupac
you young whippersnapper, feel free to private message me anything you want to say. I promise not to report you. one should not have to fear the wraith of anyone
speak your mind
Viper
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I only did 4 or 5 spins loaded as Traveler was. Spin to right reluctant to recover, a little asymmetric power stopped most of them, on one I had to use a bit of aileron to get wings level to horizon before rotation stopped.
Something I noticed was as the spin developed the yoke moved forward even though I was hold full back stick. I was not using Combat Trim. A look at the elevator showed that it had gone to the "down" position. I tried P40E and noticed same thing with the elevator. As the spin develops the in cockpit stick moves forward, elevator moves down.
Cartoon planes don't spin right...not in AH, not in Warbirds, not in Air Warrior or any other sim.
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Tupac
you young whippersnapper, feel free to private message me anything you want to say. I promise not to report you. one should not have to fear the wraith of anyone
speak your mind
Viper
It wasnt an attack, was just worried about the language I used.
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Obviously, you did not bother to read where I posted an apology to Traveler, Baldy.
or where I offered to try and recreate his tests to film and post to either back up his claim or possibly show recovery while spinning to the right
but that is ok
Viper
I was typing while you posted.
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Cartoon planes don't spin right...not in AH, not in Warbirds, not in Air Warrior or any other sim.
Please correct my understanding on the dynamics of this...
1) What makes a single engine plane spin at stall is the torque of the engine, correct?
2) Thus a plane with counter rotating props, a power on stall should have no spin, correct?
3) Thus, a plane should only spin to the left or to the right as a result of control surface changes, correct?
What other forces have a significant impact on the spin of the aircraft at stall (torque, propwash, control surface deflection, and...)?
At what speed does the rudder loose its authority?
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Viper you are a turdburgler....... I apologize.
Now we are past that comment; you may not have realized that the BBs are full of cannon armed flameblasters who live for nothing more than to disprove or contradict what someone decides to post. Likely folks throw there experience out there because it implies that they are speaking from a stronger position than book smarts or a motion picture starring Tom Cruise. (this fits, the F-14 was in a spin) They do this to hopefully limit the amount of flak they take when they make a statement. So when a guy says...."I am a flight instructor" it means that he may have some actual knowledge on the subject. Now granted there are those who lie on the BBs, but I reckon within a few years or posts, those liars are distilled into the vial of shame. Traveler is not in said vial.
I like the path you are on though, keep plowing guys on the boards for no good reason, it will certainly endear you to others and make any post of yours worth reading for all of the RIGHT reasons.
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<---has Top Gun the picture book sitting next to his desk for quick reference in all matters flight related. I'm glad my mom new when I was 8 years old that I'd need this wealth of knowlege to perform at may peak with cartoon airplanes.
(http://pics.librarything.com/picsizes/50/d6/50d6a0bbc5219d65938746a5777434d414f4541.jpg)
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Please correct my understanding on the dynamics of this...
1) What makes a single engine plane spin at stall is the torque of the engine, correct?
2) Thus a plane with counter rotating props, a power on stall should have no spin, correct?
3) Thus, a plane should only spin to the left or to the right as a result of control surface changes, correct?
What other forces have a significant impact on the spin of the aircraft at stall (torque, propwash, control surface deflection, and...)?
At what speed does the rudder loose its authority?
1) incorrect. Gliders Stall and spin with no help from engine torque. Remember a wing can be put into a stalled condition at any airspeed. Dynamic stalles are a good example.
2) incorrect,. again Gliders Stall and spin with no engine.
3)Correct. if you stall just one wing and the other continues to generate lift, the aircraft rolls,
A "stall" occurs as a result of one of two events:
1. The wings can not support the load of the weight being carried.
2. The horizontal tail can not provide the pitching authority needed to support the wing loading (tail stall)
3. 1 and 2 have to do with an aircraft that has exceeded its critical angle of attack.
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Obviously, you did not bother to read where I posted an apology to Traveler, Baldy.
or where I offered to try and recreate his tests to film and post to either back up his claim or possibly show recovery while spinning to the right
but that is ok
Viper
It would be very hard to read your "apology" and take it with any seriousness...but that was the idea right? Do you always drizzle a bit of sarcasm with your apologies? That, of course, makes it so much easier to believe. lol
Changeup
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It would be very hard to read your "apology" and take it with any seriousness...but that was the idea right? Do you always drizzle a bit of sarcasm with your apologies? That, of course, makes it so much easier to believe. lol
Changeup
we do not need egomaniacs in our squad, Sir
:rofl :rofl :rofl
:noid
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ok, just made a film testing P-38L 75% fuel loadout 2 1K bombs and 10 rkts
power off stall at 5,000 ft gear up / no flaps used (I did use flaps on 1 of the spins, I let the spin really spin 3 rotations before trying to recover, and got really close to ground so used flaps to keep from pancaking)
cut throttle, full stick backpressure full righ t rudder to induce spin
to recover - full stick forward , full left rudder to counter spin, spin stops increase throtttle to pull out
did it several times
did the spin to the left several times as well. I had no problems. I did not have to use an small amount of throttle on right engine only.
are you using combat trim? I was using manual trim , trimmed out to level flight speed of 300 mph ias
I need to find place to host this film
Viper
Where you able to post the film? Many people use Media Fire , it's free and simple to use? No combat trim is off at the point where I perform the test.
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not regarding the p38 specifically but in general ah does the stalled and sub stall speed flight modelling better than the rest but it is after all still a model and it always will have limitations in its depiction of what it models based on the code in place.
ive got about 20 hrs now of North American T-6 SNJ/Texan time and flown it throughout its envelope about every time I go up.
there is a sweet spot on big heavy low wing airplanes like this when your doing stalls or max performance turns riding a stall.
thing about it is if you stay dead on the rudder and coordinated it could almost be called docile if you take it to a stall level or in a turn. but get it in a slip or a skid and stall it out and your knife edge with a wing dropped in a split second.
then theres flight beyond the stall. hammerheads and fun stuff like that are much more graceful in my experience in planes like the texan. there really is nothing about the way it flies I don't enjoy. and the commonly held view that the mustangs and single seat warbirds do fly much like the texan makes it all the better.
anyways. ah stall/sub stall modelling is good and most likely the best in the industry but it can always be improved upon.
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Where you able to post the film? Many people use Media Fire , it's free and simple to use? No combat trim is off at the point where I perform the test.
Yes Sir, I used your suggestion and made a mediafire account.
P38L Poweroff Stall induced Left Spin Test
http://www.mediafire.com/?3a3o4d4bvtnnzhj
P38L Poweroff Stall induced Right Spin Test
http://www.mediafire.com/?sbkzvimh6naufx4
I noticed that the artificial horizongyroscope doess not work in the film viewer
I noticed that flaps and ailerons show movement in film viewer but the rudder shows no movement , neither does the flight yoke for the P38L
I noticed that in your films you let the spin go 3 to 5 or moe revolutions, or it is hard to tell because the rudder shows no movement in external view but you might be already trying to counter wih rudder but to no avail
I only let my spins go 1 to 2 revolutions. on one of the spins I let it go to 3 or 4 revolutions
but I was able to recover from all spins. I did bring throttle in on 1 or 2 of the spins right as I was coming out of the spin but it looks like the film has a delayed reaction verses what it looks like when actually flying online or offline
let me know or tell me if I did anything wrong in doing these, please
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Viper you are a turdburgler....... I apologize.
apology accepted :D
I have not plowed any person outside of commenting to Traveler about posting his credentials, and in hindsite I saw where he was coming from and fully understand why he would take the time to post such info, just like you pointed out
I offered an apology to Traveler and with my sorry typing abilitys it might not have been understood correctly from how I ran everything together
I have made an honest effort of trying to see and figure out what Traveler (and others possibly) are experiencing with spins to the right in the P38L
good day, Sir!
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Interestingly I did a second series of tests with the P38L same load out as before and in the spin to the right if I applied power on the right engine the rotation to the right was stopped and recovery was possible. Normal recovery from a spin in either direction should be possible in the P38, it appears as though it is not possible with in the game. I know that AH prides itself on the mechanics of the flight model and was wondering if someone from AH might care to comment on what appears to be a problem with that model.
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Weird, if you are in spin to right, power off stall.
You apply right engine power to stop right spin stall?
Seems like left engine power would counter right spin. :headscratch:
:cheers: Oz
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Yes Sir, I used your suggestion and made a mediafire account.
P38L Poweroff Stall induced Left Spin Test
http://www.mediafire.com/?3a3o4d4bvtnnzhj
P38L Poweroff Stall induced Right Spin Test
http://www.mediafire.com/?sbkzvimh6naufx4
I noticed that the artificial horizongyroscope doess not work in the film viewer
I noticed that flaps and ailerons show movement in film viewer but the rudder shows no movement , neither does the flight yoke for the P38L
I noticed that in your films you let the spin go 3 to 5 or moe revolutions, or it is hard to tell because the rudder shows no movement in external view but you might be already trying to counter wih rudder but to no avail
I only let my spins go 1 to 2 revolutions. on one of the spins I let it go to 3 or 4 revolutions
but I was able to recover from all spins. I did bring throttle in on 1 or 2 of the spins right as I was coming out of the spin but it looks like the film has a delayed reaction verses what it looks like when actually flying online or offline
let me know or tell me if I did anything wrong in doing these, please
I only looked at the spin to the right. Of the three spins on the film, only the second was actually a stall spin. It appears in the first spin to the right that you applied right rudder as you say to induce the spin , however, based on what I saw I think you applied the right rudder just before the wing stalled.
The second Stall Spin to the right was executed perfectly and was well done. You were only able to stop the rotation by adding power to the right engine. And again my point being you should be able to stop rotation with left ruder alone.
The third Stall Spin was more of a snap roll to the right and again I feel the wing was not stalled.
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Weird, if you are in spin to right, power off stall.
You apply right engine power to stop right spin stall?
Seems like left engine power would counter right spin. :headscratch:
:cheers: Oz
Not really weird, while sitting in the hanger in a P38, start just the right engine. Shift + 2 and press E. Now add power to #2, while looking forward, the nose of the aircraft swings to the left.
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Weird, if you are in spin to right, power off stall.
You apply right engine power to stop right spin stall?
Seems like left engine power would counter right spin. :headscratch:
:cheers: Oz
Power from the right engine yaws to the left. You are spinning to the right -- the nose is moving to the right -- you want to stop that rotation.
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I'm still curious about the stick and elevator movement during the spin. Why does the stick move forward, elevator go down while controller is held full back?
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I too wasn't able to recover from a right-hand spin, but had no trouble with a left-hand spin.
Here's what Lockheed had to say.
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment297.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment298.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment299.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment300.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment301.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment302.jpg)
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At least in the P-38J, there is no issues with recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side.
ack-ack
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Very Nice, cactuskooler!....... thanks for sharing with us.....
At least in the P-38J, there is no issues with recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side.
ack-ack
heya ack-ack, what is your thoughts on the P-38L........ about recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side?
cheers
TC
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1) incorrect. Gliders Stall and spin with no help from engine torque. Remember a wing can be put into a stalled condition at any airspeed. Dynamic stalles are a good example.
2) incorrect,. again Gliders Stall and spin with no engine.
3)Correct. if you stall just one wing and the other continues to generate lift, the aircraft rolls,
A "stall" occurs as a result of one of two events:
1. The wings can not support the load of the weight being carried.
2. The horizontal tail can not provide the pitching authority needed to support the wing loading (tail stall)
3. 1 and 2 have to do with an aircraft that has exceeded its critical angle of attack.
My posts are making the assumption the pilot is not inducing a wingtip stall... but rather just pointing the nose up and running out of energy (ie the entire wing stalls). That being said, also, in AH arenas, there is no wind, so what forces would make one wing stall before another in a glider given the above assumptions?
Also, just out of curiosity, how does one induce a tail stall (ie how does once get the tail at a different angle of attack than the wings)? or will the point of aoa where the tail stalls be different than the wings?
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I had the same results at Traveler with the P38L; recovered without difficulty left and right required differential throttle control to recover.
I tried it in the J and I had no problem either way... I wonder if the drag on the christmas tree rocket rails on the L isn't the same on both sides?
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Normal recovery from a spin in either direction should be possible in the P38, it appears as though it is not possible with in the game.
Hi Traveler,
I have been testing the P-38L in the same configuration you describe above. But I am not experiencing the same difficulty recovering that you and others have described, I can recovery the right hand spin fairly easily using the techniques described by TC earlier. Infact reading cactuskooler's post I notice that my P-38L behaves exactly as described in that document, even to the extent that when I attempted a spin recovery starting at 3k and pulled up a little too sharply after getting out of the spin, I stalled again and span off to the left exactly as described in step 7.
One thing I notice when I watch your film is that your control commands appear to have no visible effect on the aircraft at all. In contrast to that, when my aircraft is in a spin I see distinct visual cues in response to my control commands. This leads me to think that it might be worth checking your joystick set up, just in case it is a control authority issue.
Just in case it makes any difference, I have all of my control curves flat lined against the top edge so that I get a full and rapid control response with no damping. Give that a try and see if it makes any difference.
Meanwhile I'll do some more tests, but at this point I have not been able to duplicate your unrecoverable spin.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Very Nice, cactuskooler!....... thanks for sharing with us.....
heya ack-ack, what is your thoughts on the P-38L........ about recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side?
cheers
TC
I tried offline and I couldn't reproduce the right side stall induced spin that was unrecoverable. Each time I was able to recover within a turn without having to use differential throttle control.
ack-ack
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My posts are making the assumption the pilot is not inducing a wingtip stall... but rather just pointing the nose up and running out of energy (ie the entire wing stalls). That being said, also, in AH arenas, there is no wind, so what forces would make one wing stall before another in a glider given the above assumptions?
Also, just out of curiosity, how does one induce a tail stall (ie how does once get the tail at a different angle of attack than the wings)? or will the point of aoa where the tail stalls be different than the wings?
There is always Relative Wind. That is the air mass striking the leading edge of the wing as a result of the aircraft moving forward either as a result of thrust or gravity as in a glide.
You need to go on the internet, look up Aviation Stall and Stall Spin and do some reading. Also, keep in mind that the aircraft designers , the engineers that design wings design the wing so that it does not stall at the same time. Most wings stall at the inside root with the ailerons remaining effective after the inner and outer portions of the wing have stalled.
Look up Relative Wind, Angle of Attack, Wing Cord and the three Axes of an aircraft related to center of gravity.
The tail services all of them, the vertical tail and ruder is for Yaw. The elevator is for pitch control and the horizontal stabilizer, that little wing on the tail does not generate lift, but rather generates a downward force.
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I had the same results at Traveler with the P38L; recovered without difficulty left and right required differential throttle control to recover.
I tried it in the J and I had no problem either way... I wonder if the drag on the christmas tree rocket rails on the L isn't the same on both sides?
I also did the test without rockets and the result was the same, can't stop the spin to the right using ruder alone.
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Hi Traveler,
I have been testing the P-38L in the same configuration you describe above. But I am not experiencing the same difficulty recovering that you and others have described, I can recovery the right hand spin fairly easily using the techniques described by TC earlier. Infact reading cactuskooler's post I notice that my P-38L behaves exactly as described in that document, even to the extent that when I attempted a spin recovery starting at 3k and pulled up a little too sharply after getting out of the spin, I stalled again and span off to the left exactly as described in step 7.
One thing I notice when I watch your film is that your control commands appear to have no visible effect on the aircraft at all. In contrast to that, when my aircraft is in a spin I see distinct visual cues in response to my control commands. This leads me to think that it might be worth checking your joystick set up, just in case it is a control authority issue.
Just in case it makes any difference, I have all of my control curves flat lined against the top edge so that I get a full and rapid control response with no damping. Give that a try and see if it makes any difference.
Meanwhile I'll do some more tests, but at this point I have not been able to duplicate your unrecoverable spin.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
I understand that you can use power on the right engine to stop the spin to the right, however, my point is that you should not have to. The ruder should be all that is needed to stop the spin. I would think that AH might want to look at the model.
If you want to duplicate the test, don’t use power to recover from the spin. Do as the pilot manual for the P38 instructs and use rudder to stop the spin. Keep in mind that no power is needed to recover from a stall spin. Gliders do it every day.
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I tried offline and I couldn't reproduce the right side stall induced spin that was unrecoverable. Each time I was able to recover within a turn without having to use differential throttle control.
ack-ack
My guess would be that you were not in a Stall/spin but rather had entered a steep sprial which many people confuse with a spin. The wing is never really stalled. Vipers stall to the right file, his first attempt was a steep sprial .
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At least in the P-38J, there is no issues with recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side.
ack-ack
Stall induced spin? LOL.
All spins occur as a result of an aggrivated stall where one wing is stalled more then other.
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There is always Relative Wind.
If the glider is stalling out due to the conditions/assumptions I described above, it would be equal on both wings, there is no reason for one wing to be moving faster than the other.
Most wings stall at the inside root with the ailerons remaining effective after the inner and outer portions of the wing have stalled.
understood, but given the conditions/assumptions I described above, the stall at the wing roots would be at the same time.
The tail services all of them, the vertical tail and ruder is for Yaw. The elevator is for pitch control and the horizontal stabilizer, that little wing on the tail does not generate lift, but rather generates a downward force.
I hope the obviousness of this post wasn't intended to be condescending (without any vocal or facial ques or knowing you, I can't tell). I'm sorry if I'm bothering you with questions, good day.
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If the glider is stalling out due to the conditions/assumptions I described above, it would be equal on both wings, there is no reason for one wing to be moving faster than the other.
understood, but given the conditions/assumptions I described above, the stall at the wing roots would be at the same time.
I hope the obviousness of this post wasn't intended to be condescending (without any vocal or facial ques or knowing you, I can't tell). I'm sorry if I'm bothering you with questions, good day.
I don't mind answering your questions, however the first statement you made indicated to me that you lack a firm understanding of what a stall is.
My posts are making the assumption the pilot is not inducing a wingtip stall... but rather just pointing the nose up and running out of energy (ie the entire wing stalls)
a wing stalls based on an excessive Angle of Attack to the Relative Wind. That’s why I suggested that you spend 20 minutes on the internet reading any one of the many articles on Aviation Stall Spin. Read about wing design and how they engineer into the wing the inability for the wing to stall. Once you understand that the wing is designed so that the entire wing does not stall at the exact same time, you will understand why your statement demonstrates a lack of basic understanding of the stall.
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Stall induced spin? LOL.
All spins occur as a result of an aggrivated stall where one wing is stalled more then other.
I know you like to jump at the chance to hump my ankle and look like a twit, but to save yourself some embarrassment you should read the original post.
ack-ack
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I too wasn't able to recover from a right-hand spin, but had no trouble with a left-hand spin.
Here's what Lockheed had to say.
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment297.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment298.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment299.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment300.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment301.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/BorgCheckPayment302.jpg)
Thanks for posting this.
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The instructions on how to avoid a spin with the cartoonish stuff. When was that made, and by whom? I read the entire thing, I have yet to try it in AH, but I cant imagine that was a training manual, or was it?
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Not really weird, while sitting in the hanger in a P38, start just the right engine. Shift + 2 and press E. Now add power to #2, while looking forward, the nose of the aircraft swings to the left.
Doh, I forgot counter-rotating
:cheers: Oz
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Doh, I forgot counter-rotating
:cheers: Oz
No that still seems wierd...That would mean the torque initially is greatter than the thrust from the prop? :headscratch: Is that possible?
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The instructions on how to avoid a spin with the cartoonish stuff. When was that made, and by whom? I read the entire thing, I have yet to try it in AH, but I cant imagine that was a training manual, or was it?
It was put out by Lockheed during the war and intended for training purposes.
ack-ack
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It was put out by Lockheed during the war and intended for training purposes.
ack-ack
:confused: Thats official from Lockheed?
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My guess would be that you were not in a Stall/spin but rather had entered a steep sprial which many people confuse with a spin. The wing is never really stalled. Vipers stall to the right file, his first attempt was a steep sprial .
I would think that ack-ack would be near the top of the list when it comes to the P-38 series in several different flight sims........ and would know how to encroach or produce a " Stall Induced Spin".........
if a person simply stalls the plane out without any rudder input, the only thing to happen would be the nose dropping straight down ( remember counter rotating props equal out prop wash & torque )...... thus, one needs to apply the rudder to induce the spin with the full back pressure or elevator full up position / rudder full either direction desired ....... I would not even question the ability whether ack-ack was initiating a power-off stall correctly an inducing the spin properly or not....... I am sure he hit a hvy buffeting before he introduced right rudder and full elevator up / full stick back........
the same with Viper........ all 3 of his purposely stall induced spins are pretty much identical in their timing and in their recovery........ some he does claim to let spin more than others but his film shows no signs of using "right engine throttle" to recover from any of the spins.... he does use the throttle to increase speed once he had recovered the spin enough to use both throttles to get speed to pull out.....
edit: if you are hitting the rudder "post stall" after the nose has started to drop then you are not inducing the spin, you have already stalled and are approaching a nose down atitude without any input
you are stalled once you have reached beyond a medium buffet / full volume stall horn.......... at this point you are post stall or on the other side of the stall edge..... if you are waiting for the wing(s) ( since this is a P-38L and it is balanced ) to lose lift and drop then you use rudder....... this is more of entering a spiral dive because you are waiting to long to induce the spin.......
from my experiences anyways
Stall induced spin? LOL.
All spins occur as a result of an aggrivated stall where one wing is stalled more then other.
Yes, it is a Stall Induced Spin........ to get the plane to spin one has to induce the stall and then use cross control, as has been mentioned by several others in this thread already....
the cross controls are the left ( or right ) full rudder and full back (elevator up ) on flight stick or yoke.....
hope this helps
TC
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I understand that you can use power on the right engine to stop the spin to the right, however, my point is that you should not have to.
I'm not sure why you thought I used the engine to stop the spin, I didn't, but I wasn't explicit... my apologies.
Take another look at my post and see if my suggestion regarding control authority helps. I'm seeing a response to control commands that you aren't so I think that is worth a try. Remember that while we all have exactly the same flight model, the thing that will vary from player to player is the way the controls are set up and applied and so a corresponding variation in response isn't surprising.
I would think that AH might want to look at the model.
We all have exactly the same model, but in contrast to your experience I find it fairly difficult to spin the P-38L and I find it easy to recover. I'm seeing results that appear to be entirely consistent with the manual. That there seems to be some variety in results even though we all have exactly the same model is an indication that the cause may be found elsewhere. That's why I suspect that control issues may be a more likely candidate for the different behaviour we are seeing than the model itself.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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I would think that ack-ack would be near the top of the list when it comes to the P-38 series in several different flight sims........ and would know how to encroach or produce a " Stall Induced Spin".........
if a person simply stalls the plane out without any rudder input, the only thing to happen would be the nose dropping straight down ( remember counter rotating props equal out prop wash & torque )...... thus, one needs to apply the rudder to induce the spin with the full back pressure or elevator full up position / rudder full either direction desired ....... I would not even question the ability whether ack-ack was initiating a power-off stall correctly an inducing the spin properly or not....... I am sure he hit a hvy buffeting before he introduced right rudder and full elevator up / full stick back........
the same with Viper........ all 3 of his purposely stall induced spins are pretty much identical in their timing and in their recovery........ some he does claim to let spin more than others but his film shows no signs of using "right engine throttle" to recover from any of the spins.... he does use the throttle to increase speed once he had recovered the spin enough to use both throttles to get speed to pull out.....
edit: if you are hitting the rudder "post stall" after the nose has started to drop then you are not inducing the spin, you have already stalled and are approaching a nose down atitude without any input
you are stalled once you have reached beyond a medium buffet / full volume stall horn.......... at this point you are post stall or on the other side of the stall edge..... if you are waiting for the wing(s) ( since this is a P-38L and it is balanced ) to lose lift and drop then you use rudder....... this is more of entering a spiral dive because you are waiting to long to induce the spin.......
from my experiences anyways
Yes, it is a Stall Induced Spin........ to get the plane to spin one has to induce the stall and then use cross control, as has been mentioned by several others in this thread already....
the cross controls are the left ( or right ) full rudder and full back (elevator up ) on flight stick or yoke.....
hope this helps
TC
Have you looked at my film? I also disagree that waiting for the nose to start to drop prior to applying Rudder to induce the spin is wrong.. In a stall not all three control surfaces lose there effectiveness at the same point. In a stall the Rudder is the last surface to lose effectiveness and the first to recover effectiveness. Your assumptions that in a perfect world when a stall is done wings level with feet on the floor (no rudder input) the nose would drop with no induced roll is just unrealistic. A student must work the rudder constantly to achieve that type of perfect stall.
You may want to actually go fly at your local airport with an instructor clime to 5 K in a trainer and do your feet on the floor stall and record how many time in 3 a wing drops off at stall (rolls).
Look bottom line is, from everything I read including Stall Spin recovery training material from Lockheed , you should not have to apply power to stop the spin. You should just be holding rudder on the opposite side of the spin to stop the spin. I found and many others have found that you can’t do that in AH in a spin to the right in a P38L.
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Your assumptions that in a perfect world when a stall is done wings level with feet on the floor (no rudder input) the nose would drop with no induced roll is just unrealistic. A student must work the rudder constantly to achieve that type of perfect stall.
It is a perfect world in Aces High when it comes to the P38 series.......... at least that is what people sort of acknowledge
counter rotating props...... no yaw to deal with........ no wind to deal with....... is like flying in a vacuum..... <-- not really Aces high does model atmospheric air density, but there is no wind or cross winds or updrafts etc....
I should have posted I was specifically talking about "Aces High & the Aces high P38 series" ......
do you think they have a P38L trainer at any local airport for me to go and take a flying lesson with an instructor? to see how the P38L ( twin engine with counter rotating props ) trainer plane would react if I did a power off stall? If I was to do a gradual climb with no rudder input at all to where the plane stalled and the nose dropped........... are you telling me that it would roll off to one side or the other? if the plane was in a perfect level climb and trimmed properly ? I am no flight instructor, sorry... but I am not talking real world here either, Traveler
hell, I am always up for learning something new in Aces high, if I am wrong about something or have posted wrong information regarding Aces high, I openly accept someone correcting me, sir.....
edit: yes sir, Traveler..... I did go and download your films and I watched them around 3 or 4 times
TC
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Traveler, I didn't see this in your initial post, but did you do the testing with combat trim on by any chance?
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Look bottom line is, from everything I read including Stall Spin recovery training material from Lockheed , you should not have to apply power to stop the spin. You should just be holding rudder on the opposite side of the spin to stop the spin. I found and many others have found that you can’t do that in AH in a spin to the right in a P38L.
Traveler, I understand that for you and for others as well........ that when ya'll are doing this test for spin recovery on the P38 L............. that some of you DO have to use the throttle on the right engine to bring the P38 out of the right handed spin.......
I also know that myself, and others............. are able to recover from this Stall right rudder induced spin without having to use any throttle on the right engine.........
I believe that the difference is all in the way each person has their controls setup or scaled / dampened, or what have you.........
I know you are a Life long Flight Instrutor, and are very knowledgable in this area, I am not trying to argue against you.......
cheers
TC
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Traveler, I didn't see this in your initial post, but did you do the testing with combat trim on by any chance?
I did it the test with combat trim both on and off I saw no difference in the spin to the right. And I was always able to recover from the spin to the left.
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Traveler, I understand that for you and for others as well........ that when ya'll are doing this test for spin recovery on the P38 L............. that some of you DO have to use the throttle on the right engine to bring the P38 out of the right handed spin.......
I also know that myself, and others............. are able to recover from this Stall right rudder induced spin without having to use any throttle on the right engine.........
I believe that the difference is all in the way each person has their controls setup or scaled / dampened, or what have you.........
I know you are a Life long Flight Instrutor, and are very knowledgable in this area, I am not trying to argue against you.......
cheers
TC
I agree with you that it might have been my control settings, I use the default on everything. I suggested that a long ways back in this thread.
This is my set up.
Feet on the floor
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h416/113thLuckyStrikes/Feetonfloor.jpg)
Left rudder
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h416/113thLuckyStrikes/LeftRudder.jpg)
Right Rudder
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h416/113thLuckyStrikes/RightRudder.jpg)
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One thing I notice when I watch your film is that your control commands appear to have no visible effect on the aircraft at all. In contrast to that, when my aircraft is in a spin I see distinct visual cues in response to my control commands. This leads me to think that it might be worth checking your joystick set up, just in case it is a control authority issue.
You are looking at a .ahf file, it does not show the actual control inputs. as far as I know. It only shows some control inputs. as a test I turned on fraps at the same time I hit alt + R, moved the controls and exited. The fraps film shows all control movements while the .ahf file shows none.
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Hello Traveler,
I just went and checked my CH Rudder pedals
my raw data numbers are Left = 0 Center = 32305 Right = 64611
they come close to being nearly dead on evened out ( take the centered # and multiply times 2 to get your Full right rudder Raw Data # )
looking at your numbers on your Rudder Pedals show
Left = 0 Center = 31734 Right = 65535 ( it should be like 63468 ) or if you used your Full right rudder # and divided by 2, your --> Centered Rudder reading should be 32766 or 32768
I do not know if this is your problem or not...... it could be you just got a reading from a sticky pot, possibly
edit: if indeed your rudder is off and it was not a sticking pot for that raw data reading whether it be the centered # or the Full Right # ...... then I would try recalibrating my controls ( & pedals )
both in Windows and then recalibrate in the game, then check the numbers again
if they come out properly ( evened out ) see if you can recover from your test scenario....
TC
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I too wasn't able to recover from a right-hand spin, but had no trouble with a left-hand spin.
Here's what Lockheed had to say.
Do you guys have all the Hanger Flying issues for the P38? I had some of the originals from my Dad who flew P47's and later P51's out of England.
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Hello Traveler,
I just went and checked my CH Rudder pedals
my raw data numbers are Left = 0 Center = 32305 Right = 64611
they come close to being nearly dead on evened out ( take the centered # and multiply times 2 to get your Full right rudder Raw Data # )
looking at your numbers on your Rudder Pedals show
Left = 0 Center = 31734 Right = 65535 ( it should be like 63468 ) or if you used your Full right rudder # and divided by 2, your entered rudder reading should be 32766 or 32768
I do not know if this is your problem or not...... it could be you just got a reading from a sticky pot, possibly
edit: if indeed your rudder is off and it was not a sticking pot for that raw data reading whether it be the centered # or the Full Right # ...... then I would try recalibrating my controls ( & pedals )
both in Windows and then recalibrate in the game, then check the numbers again
if they come out properly ( evened out ) see if you can recover from your test scenario....
TC
I will give it a try.
thanks
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I did the recalibration both in Windows XP and Aces High,
I checked the Centered numbers and it now reads 32768 Left ) and right 65535, with left being zero. it’s the best I can do with my equipment.
I redid my test and had the same results. I can only stop a spin to the right by adding full left rudder and power. If I don't add power it continues to spin all the way in with just left rudder being held.
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I did the recalibration both in Windows XP and Aces High,
I checked the Centered numbers and it now reads 32768 Left ) and right 65535, with left being zero. it’s the best I can do with my equipment.
I redid my test and had the same results. I can only stop a spin to the right by adding full left rudder and power. If I don't add power it continues to spin all the way in with just left rudder being held.
Well Traveler, your numbers look right..... Left = 0 to Right = 65535 is what CH USB products read ( my CH Rudder pedals are analog/gameport model going thru an USB adaptor, is why they are different )
I was thinking that might have been the difference, but looks to be not....... I do not know what else could be the reason..... hmm.......
TC
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Traveler,
How do you have your trim controls setup? Do you have them mapped to analog controls by any chance?
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Traveler,
How do you have your trim controls setup? Do you have them mapped to analog controls by any chance?
Auto trim is off and I only use the kep board. Also, keep in mind that it is only the P38L, the G and J can be spun both left and right and recovered, it's only the L and only in a right spin. I must use power from the right engine to stop the spin.
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Do you guys have all the Hanger Flying issues for the P38? I had some of the originals from my Dad who flew P47's and later P51's out of England.
I have the first 23 issues. I'm unsure how many total issues Lockheed made, but I know there is a 24th issue called Maximum Range Procedures.
I've kept on experimenting with different fuel loads, combat trim on and off, and using rudder trim to try and get out of the spin—still haven't managed to get out of a right-hander once. I've only tried the L, not the J or G.
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Might be an oddity with the P-38L. There are some oddities that have popped up with the P-38s, like losing a single elevator and having the plane roll to the side of the damaged elevator.
ack-ack
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Might be an oddity with the P-38L. There are some oddities that have popped up with the P-38s, like losing a single elevator and having the plane roll to the side of the damaged elevator.
ack-ack
Yes but with so many haveing the issue and a few that it just doesn't happen to is very strange, must be something different somewhere. I had the hope that it was in my controller but if it was I'd think it would happen on every P38 and in both spins to the left and right. Still hope that someone from AH can take a look and let us know what they find.
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I have the first 23 issues. I'm unsure how many total issues Lockheed made, but I know there is a 24th issue called Maximum Range Procedures.
I've kept on experimenting with different fuel loads, combat trim on and off, and using rudder trim to try and get out of the spin—still haven't managed to get out of a right-hander once. I've only tried the L, not the J or G.
are they available for the public to view? the 23 issues?
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are they available for the public to view? the 23 issues?
Issues 1-11 (http://www.jamesreese.org/hangarflying/index.htm)
ack-ack
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Issues 1-11 (http://www.jamesreese.org/hangarflying/index.htm)
ack-ack
thanks I've had access to that for a number of years, I was looking to see 12 - 23 I didn't even know that they existed.
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are they available for the public to view? the 23 issues?
I have them uploaded here. I'm missing pages 3 and 4 in issue 7.
http://www.mediafire.com/?4yd2126y3njuxca (http://www.mediafire.com/?4yd2126y3njuxca)
Here's the cover of issue 24. It's all I have of that.
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/Untitled-7-7.jpg)
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You are looking at a .ahf file, it does not show the actual control inputs.
Hi Traveler,
Apologies once again, I wasn't being clear, I am aware of the .ahf limitations and I wasn't looking at the controls or the control surfaces. I simply assumed you were making the appropriate control inputs. However, even though you were unable to recover I was still expecting to see your aircraft respond in some way to your control commands, but by just watching the aircraft in the spin I couldn't detect any indication that you were making control commands of any kind. That is not what I'm seeing when I do it.
Here is a film where I wait until the aircraft is fully stalled before using the rudder to initiate a right hand spin. I allow the spin to fully develop and when it is fully established I still make no attempt to recover until the altitude hits 3k. I've used the 3k altitude as a marker so that you can see when I begin. Once the altitude hits 3k I initiate a recovery and pull out without using the throttle with a loss of 2k.
http://www.aircombatacademy.com/video/BadboyRHspin.ahf
The only thing I notice that is different in our control setup is that I use some damping on the rudder in order to smooth out my rudder inputs with the intention of helping to avoid spins during combat.
Unfortunately I simply can't get my P-38L to stall more deeply, or spin more permanently than that, it just won't happen for me.
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Regards
Badboy
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Hi Traveler,
Apologies once again, I wasn't being clear, I am aware of the .ahf limitations and I wasn't looking at the controls or the control surfaces. I simply assumed you were making the appropriate control inputs. However, even though you were unable to recover I was still expecting to see your aircraft respond in some way to your control commands, but by just watching the aircraft in the spin I couldn't detect any indication that you were making control commands of any kind. That is not what I'm seeing when I do it.
Here is a film where I wait until the aircraft is fully stalled before using the rudder to initiate a right hand spin. I allow the spin to fully develop and when it is fully established I still make no attempt to recover until the altitude hits 3k. I've used the 3k altitude as a marker so that you can see when I begin. Once the altitude hits 3k I initiate a recovery and pull out without using the throttle with a loss of 2k.
http://www.aircombatacademy.com/video/BadboyRHspin.ahf
The only thing I notice that is different in our control setup is that I use some damping on the rudder in order to smooth out my rudder inputs with the intention of helping to avoid spins during combat.
Unfortunately I simply can't get my P-38L to stall more deeply, or spin more permanently than that, it just won't happen for me.
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Regards
Badboy
I"ll take a look at it when I get a minute, you can tell somewhat when I'm dong by watching the Needle ball, they do work in the .ahf and you can tell when I apply right rudder and when I apply left rudder in an attempt to stop the rotation.
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This thread got me wondering, so I tried a spin recovery in the the 38. The weird thing is, after flying level at 200mph, then jerking full back with full left rudder, waiting for the spin to get settled in so it keeps going when I let go, and then pushing full right rudder, nothing happens. Actually the spin seems to get faster. I can't pull back because the game apparently takes away most of the elevator control. What little bit I can push forward doesn't make a difference for rudder recovery. The same with a right side spin. There were only two ways I could get out of it: aileron in the direction of the spin, or oscillate the little amount of elevator control the game leaves me with in the spin to get the nose bouncing. The 38 J will not recover with aileron only like the L did, I had to get the nose bouncing a little bit. I didn't try the G.
This was with 50% fuel, no external load. It did not matter what altitude, I did all the tests falling from 30k down to 1k.
I'll try again and have a closer look at my controls tomorrow. I also forgot to try without combat trim, but I don't think it's going to make a difference.
I hate the P38.
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This thread got me wondering, so I tried a spin recovery in the the 38. The weird thing is, after flying level at 200mph, then jerking full back with full left rudder, waiting for the spin to get settled in so it keeps going when I let go, and then pushing full right rudder, nothing happens. Actually the spin seems to get faster. I can't pull back because the game apparently takes away most of the elevator control. What little bit I can push forward doesn't make a difference for rudder recovery. The same with a right side spin. There were only two ways I could get out of it: aileron in the direction of the spin, or oscillate the little amount of elevator control the game leaves me with in the spin to get the nose bouncing. The 38 J will not recover with aileron only like the L did, I had to get the nose bouncing a little bit. I didn't try the G.
This was with 50% fuel, no external load. It did not matter what altitude, I did all the tests falling from 30k down to 1k.
I'll try again and have a closer look at my controls tomorrow. I also forgot to try without combat trim, but I don't think it's going to make a difference.
I hate the P38.
The method you are describing for entry into the spin is not the proper procedure for performing a stall, remember first the wing is stalled, then rudder is applied for the direction that you want the aircraft to spin in.
You should start off level with reduced power so that the airspeed slows, you want to enter the stall from a slow flight configuration, No Jerking of the controls. Slow to about 110 MPH, then raise the nose of the aircraft, power off, and hold the nose above the horizon and wait for the stall to occur, as the stall occurs, press full left or right rudder and hold that rudder position , the aircraft will stall and spin in what ever direction of rudder you are holding. That the proper method for the stall spin entry.
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Yeah i think mar's talking about the p-38 ninja star.
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Please point out to me where you think I said there was a bug with the Aces High P-38 flight model? I provided film and I asked for others to comment on what I was experiencing. I never said that there was a bug.
If you read the original post it states the conditions of my flight. But so there is no mistake, the aircraft was 75% fuel, 2 1000lbs bombs, and 10 rockets.
I entered a power off stall at 5000 feet. Spun to the right and was unable to recover using normal spin recovery procedures. All spins to the left can be recovered from.
If you spun the p38 with 75% fuel, 2 1000lbs bombs, and 10 rockets............at 5000 feet..............you should have not recovered.............regardl ess of whether right or left rotation.
Consider the fact that it can be recovered from one direction as a gift.
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The method you are describing for entry into the spin is not the proper procedure for performing a stall, remember first the wing is stalled, then rudder is applied for the direction that you want the aircraft to spin in.
You should start off level with reduced power so that the airspeed slows, you want to enter the stall from a slow flight configuration, No Jerking of the controls. Slow to about 110 MPH, then raise the nose of the aircraft, power off, and hold the nose above the horizon and wait for the stall to occur, as the stall occurs, press full left or right rudder and hold that rudder position , the aircraft will stall and spin in what ever direction of rudder you are holding. That the proper method for the stall spin entry.
Gotcha, I'll give that a shot then.
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Just spent some more time in the TA doing spins in the 38L.
You guys that are able to recover, any chance you're using some aileron in your recovery technique?
If I used the standard spin recovery of throttles idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder and forward stick the spin rotation would increase slightly and did not recover from the spin.
If I used the standard anti spin controls PLUS aileron INTO (left spin, left aileron) I got consistent recovery withing 5 or 6 additional turns. (Pro spin aileron makes sense IF adverse yaw is modeled, but what I'm seeing in the spin is a bank away from spin rotation -- once the bank is neutralized with aileron you get immediate recovery)
I'm seeing this with or without bombs loaded, both left and right spins.
Spins were started at 20K, slow deceleration and allowed to go until spin stabilized (3-5 turns) before recovery. Recovery was from 10 to 13K.
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Just spent some more time in the TA doing spins in the 38L.
You guys that are able to recover, any chance you're using some aileron in your recovery technique?
If I used the standard spin recovery of throttles idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder and forward stick the spin rotation would increase slightly and did not recover from the spin.
I myself can not rule out what I had tested before if I had used any aileron unput or not...... I did not film them after 2 or 3 others posted they were able to recover...... at that point it was almost 50 / 50 either some could or some could not...... I can go redo the test again if need be.... if it is necessary to spend more time on this issue
I do think that something or someone is doing something different or settings are possibly different, when I see Delirium post that he had trouble trying to recover the right spin ....... but what ever it is I do not know
I use the spin recovery steps in the following order
S - Stick nuetral / Stick push full forward
T - Throttle off
O - Opposite Rudder to counter the Spin direction
P - Pull stick back gradually as speed increases to level out of dive
I have always used this technique for spin recovery for Tail spins / incipient spins........
I understand that an incipient spin is not what one would call a "developed spin"......... it is a spin in the first 1 to 2 rotations
and was figuring that is why Badboy posted he let his test drop 2 K to get a fully developed spin going so as their was no confusion of his test data / film
edit: I should note that on 1 or 2 of my tests for the Right Spin recovery, that it seemed to take a few seconds longer to gain recovery.......... the Left Spin Recovery recovered much more quickly than the right direction......... but it was a matter of seconds ...... I would say under 12 or 10 seconds difference....
hope this helps
TC
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The only thing I see as strange is the different recovery left or right.
There are only 3 possibilities I can think of that would cause this. So we will test the left right abnormality.
1. Controller issue.
2. Fuel burned from 1 tank.
3. A typo/bug in the p38 model.
HiTech
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The only thing I see as strange is the different recovery left or right.
I see no difference left or right.
There are only 3 possibilities I can think of that would cause this. So we will test the left right abnormality.
1. Controller issue.
2. Fuel burned from 1 tank.
3. A typo/bug in the p38 model.
The controller seems okay, I'm not seeing any difference in response left or right.
For my test I was in the TA and using the 20k field for takeoff...flight less than two minutes so shouldn't be a fuel imbalance issue.
Only you can look at the code. <G>
Now a question for you Hitech. As I posted earlier I notice that the in-cockpit stick moves forward as the spin develops and the elevator moves to a down position. What's up with that? I noticed this in both the P38 and P40.
HiTech
[/quote]
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1. Controller issue.
2. Fuel burned from 1 tank.
3. A typo/bug in the p38 model.
If you're going to change anything, could you address the lack of weight the Christmas Tree rails (when empty) have on the P38L? Those rails have to weigh at least 1 lb a piece...
edit: damn typo
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Now a question for you Hitech. As I posted earlier I notice that the in-cockpit stick moves forward as the spin develops and the elevator moves to a down position. What's up with that? I noticed this in both the P38 and P40.
It turned out to be a graphic display issue. It doesn't/didn't effect the flight model, but I fixed it for the next release.
HiTech
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It turned out to be a graphic display issue. It doesn't/didn't effect the flight model, but I fixed it for the next release.
HiTech
What about the original post? I’ve calibrated and re-calibrated my controls. I still can’t stop the spin rotation using rudder alone to stop the spin to the right. Holding full left rudder in a spin to the right appears to have no impact.
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What about the original post? I’ve calibrated and re-calibrated my controls. I still can’t stop the spin rotation using rudder alone to stop the spin to the right. Holding full left rudder in a spin to the right appears to have no impact.
Traveler: I have had trouble deciphering this thread I believe everyone except you say they can recover normally. And by rudder alone do you mean rudder and no elevator? Was the spin entry the same both ways?
So I'm confused what the issue is, have you tried the same procedure I.E. start spin left, and then reverse to the right. Along with start spin right and then reverse to the left?
As I have said above, there should be no difference left and right. I just don't want to go on a wild goose chase before you have tested all conditions.
HiTech
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Traveler: I have had trouble deciphering this thread I believe everyone except you say they can recover normally. And by rudder alone do you mean rudder and no elevator? Was the spin entry the same both ways?
I'm not seeing a normal recovery ie: opposite rudder and forward stick stopping the spin -- steady state all the way to impact.
I can recover by either bringing the power up on one side to stop rotation OR
I can use aileron into/pro spin with opposite rudder and forward stick to recover.
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Do the trim states change when you spin?
I've gotten a half turn and recovered to find the trim was crazily skewed and definately different than it was before the spin.
combat trim and stall limiter are off.
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Do the trim states change when you spin?
I've gotten a half turn and recovered to find the trim was crazily skewed and definately different than it was before the spin.
combat trim and stall limiter are off.
If you are using manual trim it should not get out of whack by the spin but with combat trim it can get that way.
ack-ack
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And just to keep things clear. :D
Was playing around with more spins in the 38L.
I can hold pro-spin control (stick back and rudder in direction of spin) and then by just putting in aileron pro-spin (spin to left, left aileron) the rotation will stop -- a little forward stick to break the stall and you're flying again.
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Traveler: I have had trouble deciphering this thread I believe everyone except you say they can recover normally. And by rudder alone do you mean rudder and no elevator? Was the spin entry the same both ways?
So I'm confused what the issue is, have you tried the same procedure I.E. start spin left, and then reverse to the right. Along with start spin right and then reverse to the left?
As I have said above, there should be no difference left and right. I just don't want to go on a wild goose chase before you have tested all conditions.
HiTech
What I am saying is that if I enter a normal stall /spin to the left, I can recovery by just releasing back pressure and holding opposite rudder , in this case right rudder , the spin is the rotation stops and the stall is recovered normally.
When I enter a spin to the right , holding opposite rudder, in this case full left rudder, does not stop the spin.
I performed both power on and power off stall and applied rudder to spin the aircraft. I also used different aircraft load outs. The result is the same. The P38L once in a spin to the right was not able to recover. Could not stop the spin to the right by using full left rudder. Was only able to recover by applying power on the right engine.
I do believe that I was not the only one that noticed this.
Have you tried it?
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You might try downloading Fraps and using it to record your procedures live (i.e. not frapsing the film). That way people can see your stick inputs. Of course record and upload the actual .ahf files as well. And show yourself calibrating the joystick and rudder while you're at it. The more doubt you can remove about what you're doing and what you're using, the better.
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And just to keep things clear. :D
Was playing around with more spins in the 38L.
I can hold pro-spin control (stick back and rudder in direction of spin) and then by just putting in aileron pro-spin (spin to left, left aileron) the rotation will stop -- a little forward stick to break the stall and you're flying again.
This explains why I cannot do a snap-roll in the L if I use aileron.
My entry into the spin is fine, there is no other spin that will keep going when I let go of the controls. Without using engines, aileron into the spin or getting the nose bouncing are the only ways to recover. The J however cannot recover with aileron alone, a little nose bouncing is required with aileron. Rudder seems to have no effect ruddering with the spin, and it seems to make the spin a bit faster ruddering against the spin.
Glad to hear the elevator graphic issue in the spin was discovered, that one always had me wondering.
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I tried twice each time.
25% fuel no loadout, max ammo 10k alt
Flew level, power off, intentionally kept the plane level while applying full left rudder. I enterend a counterclockwise spin, I wne through one full rotation each time (which put my nose almost straight down. After applying full opposite rudder each time I was unable to correct after 2 full rotations, by applyin full throttle and less rudder I recovered, losing about 6k in alt
Again exactly the same but with full right rudder to enter the spin I was unable to recover both times.
But probably this was me though, more testing to come.
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I'm a professional flight instructor that has many years of experience. I've taught spin recovery in real life in both military and civilian flight instruction. Powered and glider. Unlike the FAA, I’m a strong believer that all primary students should learn spin recovery and be able to demonstrate it. I’ have taught it for the last 30 years as part of the student pilot curriculum .
Student glider pilots according to the FAA curriculum for a glider rating must demonstrate spins and spin recovery , however, student pilots for powered aircraft must only demonstrate knowledge of spin recovery.
Perhaps that explains why far more powered students die in stall spin accidents then glider students.
Something else that you can also do in AH is to stall the aircraft press left ruder and the aircraft spins to the left, while keeping the stick fully back (stalled) stop the spin to the left by holding right ruder, and continue to hold right ruder so the spin starts to the right, at this point now apply left ruder and attempt to stop the spin to the right. It can’t be done. At least it can’t be done in the P38.
I have found the different planes in AH have their unique spin characteristics and some don't even spin.
I have flat spun the La-7 several times usually being too slow, and good luck with that, recovering from it. And yet, I can do a succesful bail if I am high enough.
The P-39 had a history of flat spins in real life, with the engine behind the seat, yet I have not encountered it, and I have deliberately tried to force it.
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What I am saying is that if I enter a normal stall /spin to the left, I can recovery by just releasing back pressure and holding opposite rudder , in this case right rudder , the spin is the rotation stops and the stall is recovered normally.
When I enter a spin to the right , holding opposite rudder, in this case full left rudder, does not stop the spin.
I performed both power on and power off stall and applied rudder to spin the aircraft. I also used different aircraft load outs. The result is the same. The P38L once in a spin to the right was not able to recover. Could not stop the spin to the right by using full left rudder. Was only able to recover by applying power on the right engine.
I do believe that I was not the only one that noticed this.
Have you tried it?
I had no trouble in the p38l recovering left or right. With and with out power. I was doing power on stalls noes about 45 deg , full back until stall, then apply rudder until spin was fully developed. No ordinance 50% gas, 5000 ft entry.
Recover either power on or off was forward stick with opposite rudder. With power off, I had to apply aileron with spin.
HiTech
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I had no trouble in the p38l recovering left or right. With and with out power. I was doing power on stalls noes about 45 deg , full back until stall, then apply rudder until spin was fully developed. No ordinance 50% gas, 5000 ft entry.
Recover either power on or off was forward stick with opposite rudder. With power off, I had to apply aileron with spin.
HiTech
With power off you had to apply aileron? Consider this please. With the wing stalled, there shouldn't be any aileron authority. Other wise you could just use the aileron to keep the wing from dropping in the original stall. A spin is around the vertical axes (rudder control), not the horizontal axes(aileron control). The rudder controls the vertical axes not the aileron. I'm suggesting that when you do the power on stall. The prop blast is providing additional authority with airflow over the rudder , enough to all is allowed it the authority to stop the rotation in the spin to the right.
If you are telling me that you are able to perform a complete right spin recovery, power off, by applying full left rudder , with no additional control inputs, I can’t do that. If you review the Lockheed document on stall spin the spin recovery is through the user of Rudder , not aileron input.
As I stated, spins to the left are all recoverable, power off and just using the right rudder to stop rotation. But with spins to the right some additional authority is needed to stop the rotation. With power or aileron. I think that’s the issue. Recovery at least according to Lockheed should be the same in either direction.
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With power off you had to apply aileron? Consider this please. With the wing stalled, there shouldn't be any aileron authority. Other wise you could just use the aileron to keep the wing from dropping in the original stall. A spin is around the vertical axes (rudder control), not the horizontal axes(aileron control). The rudder controls the vertical axes not the aileron. I'm suggesting that when you do the power on stall. The prop blast is providing additional authority with airflow over the rudder , enough to all is allowed it the authority to stop the rotation in the spin to the right.
If you are telling me that you are able to perform a complete right spin recovery, power off, by applying full left rudder , with no additional control inputs, I can’t do that. If you review the Lockheed document on stall spin the spin recovery is through the user of Rudder , not aileron input.
Traveler, are you saying you only use opposite rudder and nothing else to try and recover from spins? or that Lockheed's P38 document says to only use opposite rudder and no other control inputs......... like Stick Forward?
do you not use "Stick Forward" ( Elevator Down ) during your spin recovery? I am not talking about aileron input , just elevator input with Stick Forward..... likeI posted earlier, where I use the S. T. O. P. spin recovery when I try to recover from spins.......
this has been an interesting thread.....
TC
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With power off you had to apply aileron? Consider this please. With the wing stalled, there shouldn't be any aileron authority. Other wise you could just use the aileron to keep the wing from dropping in the original stall.
Aileron into the spin helps to stop the yaw --- adverse aileron yaw.
Anyone who's done stalls in older aircraft knows that using aileron to pick up a wing at the stall will give you a great view of the ground out of the top of the windscreen as you enter the spin. Is impressive in a B-17. :D
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As I stated, spins to the left are all recoverable, power off and just using the right rudder to stop rotation. But with spins to the right some additional authority is needed to stop the rotation. With power or aileron. I think that’s the issue. Recovery at least according to Lockheed should be the same in either direction.
Traveler: I am not trying to match the Lockeed manual.
Traveler : If spin recovery is different left or right, as I have stated early in this thread, it is an issue, the question is why. I have not seen anyone clearly state other than you, that they have different recover left vs right.
In my testing I can find no difference in recovery left or right.
Therefore it leads me to believe something is different on your system.
HiTech
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Traveler, are you saying you only use opposite rudder and nothing else to try and recover from spins? or that Lockheed's P38 document says to only use opposite rudder and no other control inputs......... like Stick Forward?
do you not use "Stick Forward" ( Elevator Down ) during your spin recovery? I am not talking about aileron input , just elevator input with Stick Forward..... likeI posted earlier, where I use the S. T. O. P. spin recovery when I try to recover from spins.......
this has been an interesting thread.....
TC
Sorry if I was unclear. STOP for full stall spin recovery. However, it’s not just a spin recovery, its two different conditions . The stall and the spin. You can’t be in a spin without being in a stall but you can stall without being in a spin. Recovery from a spin is to apply opposite rudder until rotation is stopped then neutral rudder or center the ball. Stall recovery is to release back pressure by moving the stick forward of neutral with neutral aileron. Depending on the type of stall, some manufactories require full stick forward in a snapping motion. Lockheed recommendation is release back pressure.
I too feel this is an interesting discussion. I also feel that if the problem that I am having along with a few other’s was due to technique that none of us would be able to recover from the stall/spin to the left as well, however, that does not appear to be the case. It’s just with the spin to the right where a issue exists. And we can recover from that by applying power and /or aileron. That just should not be.
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With power off you had to apply aileron? Consider this please. With the wing stalled, there shouldn't be any aileron authority.
Ailerons absolutely have authority, they just work against you. But when using ailerons you are increasing or decreasing a wings camber. This has the effect of changing the MAX AOA of the wing section containing the aileron. And hence why many planes snap when trying to correct with ailaron. They stall the outer wing section.
But using aileron in the direction of the spin can hookup a section of the wing again when very close to the spin being stopped.
Other wise you could just use the aileron to keep the wing from dropping in the original stall.
What happens when you try to do this? Normally it makes for a very nice snap. It's even more fun doing it for real when in an inverted stall.
A spin is around the vertical axes (rudder control), not the horizontal axes(aileron control). The rudder controls the vertical axes not the aileron.
Not true, a spin is around both axis, the pitch angle determines how much is yaw, how much is roll. Or more precisely.
The difference in lift between wings creates a roll, the difference in drag of the wings creates the yaw. The ratio of these will determine the nose up attitude.
I'm suggesting that when you do the power on stall. The prop blast is providing additional authority with airflow over the rudder , enough to all is allowed it the authority to stop the rotation in the spin to the right.
I agree.
HiTech
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Ailerons absolutely have authority, they just work against you. But when using ailerons you are increasing or decreasing a wings camber. This has the effect of changing the MAX AOA of the wing section containing the aileron. And hence why many planes snap when trying to correct with ailaron. They stall the outer wing section.
But using aileron in the direction of the spin can hookup a section of the wing again when very close to the spin being stopped.
What happens when you try to do this? Normally it makes for a very nice snap. It's even more fun doing it for real when in an inverted stall.
Not true, a spin is around both axis, the pitch angle determines how much is yaw, how much is roll. Or more precisely.
The difference in lift between wings creates a roll, the difference in drag of the wings creates the yaw. The ratio of these will determine the nose up attitude.
I agree.
HiTech
If you are telling that you are able to recover from the spin to the right by only applying left rudder. But I thought I had read where you had to apply aileron to stop the rotation for the spin to the right.
That you were able to stop the rotation for the left spin alone with just right rudder, but you had to use aileron and rudder to stop the rotation for the spin to the right? That sounds different to me. Others have said that they used power to recover not just rudder.
If it is just my system, wow, I’ve tried several different sticks and even using just the mouse, same result. Other then calibration not sure what is available to me to check or correct it. I can recovery every other type of aircraft that I’ve tried just not the P38L.
Here is what Soulyss and others said earlier in this thread:
You can stop a spin to the right in the P-38L under the conditions you describe by bringing up a little power on the right engine while leaving the left throttle all the way back and using left rudder.
The stall to the right does seem to behave differently than the stall to the left, why I couldn't say but you can recover from it.
I too wasn't able to recover from a right-hand spin, but had no trouble with a left-hand spin.
I had the same results at Traveler with the P38L; recovered without difficulty left and right required differential throttle control to recover.
I tried it in the J and I had no problem either way... I wonder if the drag on the christmas tree rocket rails on the L isn't the same on both sides?
Just spent some more time in the TA doing spins in the 38L.
You guys that are able to recover, any chance you're using some aileron in your recovery technique?
If I used the standard spin recovery of throttles idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder and forward stick the spin rotation would increase slightly and did not recover from the spin.
If I used the standard anti spin controls PLUS aileron INTO (left spin, left aileron) I got consistent recovery withing 5 or 6 additional turns. (Pro spin aileron makes sense IF adverse yaw is modeled, but what I'm seeing in the spin is a bank away from spin rotation -- once the bank is neutralized with aileron you get immediate recovery)
I'm seeing this with or without bombs loaded, both left and right spins.
Spins were started at 20K, slow deceleration and allowed to go until spin stabilized (3-5 turns) before recovery. Recovery was from 10 to 13K.
HiTech not sure you read the entire thread, I understand that you are a busy man and perhaps you didn’t . But it isn’t just me that is encountering this issue. If you did read the entire thread, then it bothers me that you came away feeling that is was just me having this problem.
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Traveler read those post again.
Only cactuskooler is saying there is a difference left and right.
Do you have manual trim on or off.
What fuel load?
HiTech
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Traveler read those post again.
Only cactuskooler is saying there is a difference left and right.
Do you have manual trim on or off.
What fuel load?
HiTech
You don’t feel that Soulyss is stating that there is a difference?
The stall to the right does seem to behave differently than the stall to the left,
or that Delirium by having the same results as me is not saying there is a difference ?
I had the same results at Traveler with the P38L; recovered without difficulty left and right required differential throttle control to recover.
You really believe that it is only cactuskooler and me???
Tests were performed with different fuel loads and with combat trim both on and off.
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And yet others that have tried haven't had the same problem either.
ack-ack
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Again I was playing with spins in the 38L.
This time without bombs and rockets, 75% fuel load. Still no recovery in spin to right unless I either use power on right engine OR us pro spin aileron.
FYI I used the CH control manager and confirmed that my controllers are getting full throw in all axes -- it's not a controller issue. I do not have combat trim on.
I did find a nasty spin mode in the left spin -- I guess it's going very flat. Using the same slow deceleration entry as in the spins to right when doing spins to left the nose doesn't slice down leaving me in slightly nose low attitude while spinning. IAS is 36-42 (stabilized spin to right has IAS of 92). If I applied power I could "push" the nose down and spin would normalize. Able to recover from the "flat" spin with power and anti-spin controls.
I wonder if entry technique is making a difference in the spins?
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And yet others that have tried haven't had the same problem either.
ack-ack
Yes, very strange indeed. one has to wonder why for me the only stall/spin that I can't stop the rotation to the right in is in the P38L. That is the only aircraft. Have you given it a try, seems to me that you enjoy flying the P38L once in a while. Do a spin to the left and recover by using right rudder and then try one to the right and see if you can recover with just using left Rudder or do you have to add power or aileron? so no mistake , also using all normal stall recovery techniques, stickforward and that stuff.
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Again I was playing with spins in the 38L.
This time without bombs and rockets, 75% fuel load. Still no recovery in spin to right unless I either use power on right engine OR us pro spin aileron.
FYI I used the CH control manager and confirmed that my controllers are getting full throw in all axes -- it's not a controller issue. I do not have combat trim on.
I did find a nasty spin mode in the left spin -- I guess it's going very flat. Using the same slow deceleration entry as in the spins to right when doing spins to left the nose doesn't slice down leaving me in slightly nose low attitude while spinning. IAS is 36-42 (stabilized spin to right has IAS of 92). If I applied power I could "push" the nose down and spin would normalize. Able to recover from the "flat" spin with power and anti-spin controls.
I wonder if entry technique is making a difference in the spins?
CG would be the deciding factor , I guess???
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Yes, very strange indeed. one has to wonder why for me the only stall/spin that I can't stop the rotation to the right in is in the P38L. That is the only aircraft. Have you given it a try, seems to me that you enjoy flying the P38L once in a while. Do a spin to the left and recover by using right rudder and then try one to the right and see if you can recover with just using left Rudder or do you have to add power or aileron? so no mistake , also using all normal stall recovery techniques, stickforward and that stuff.
As noted in a previous post I tried it both it in the P-38J and the P-38L and I had no issues at all recovering.
ack-ack
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Just tested the L with a twisty stick and 25% fuel. Let it rotate once then just used engine power and rudder to stabilize no big deal either direction.
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As noted in a previous post I tried it both it in the P-38J and the P-38L and I had no issues at all recovering.
ack-ack
I’m sorry Ack-Ack, I completely missed it.
I tried offline and I couldn't reproduce the right side stall induced spin that was unrecoverable. Each time I was able to recover within a turn without having to use differential throttle control.
ack-ack
I do have a question, when you say that you were able to recover within a turn, does that mean from the time the spin started, or from the time you applied full left rudder to stop the rotation to the right ?
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Just tested the L with a twisty stick and 25% fuel. Let it rotate once then just used engine power and rudder to stabilize no big deal either direction.
You are 100 % correct, and yes, we know the recovery can be accomplished with power , now try the conditions of the original test.
Power off, Stall, at 5K wings level, apply right rudder to spin to the right.
Now using S.T.O.P to recovery:
S= Stick forward ailerons neutral,
T= Throttle closed,
O= Opposite rudder to stop the rotation then center ball
P= Power, slowly raise the nose and add power to climb back to altitude
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You are 100 % correct, and yes, we know the recovery can be accomplished with power , now try the conditions of the original test.
Power off, Stall, at 5K wings level, apply right rudder to spin to the right.
Now using S.T.O.P to recovery:
S= Stick forward ailerons neutral,
T= Throttle closed,
O= Opposite rudder to stop the rotation then center ball
P= Power, slowly raise the nose and add power to climb back to altitude
Thats what I did guess I just worded it badly.
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Try these tests without the trim in the near full up positon and it's much easier.
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FWIW I spun a P-38L left and right and recovered both directions power off with stick forward and opposite rudder. I didn't use ailerons.
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FWIW I spun a P-38L left and right and recovered both directions power off with stick forward and opposite rudder. I didn't use ailerons.
Weird. Any chance you had some/lots of nose down trim in? In my spin tests I hit auto-angle to "center" things up before doing the spin...so I'm basically trimmed for level flight, low power setting and 150-180IAS. That's going to be a nose-up trim setting more than likely.
I'm confident that my controllers are working properly and I'm confident in my ability to apply the correct control inputs to recover from the spin.
I really have to wonder why some have no problem with the recovery yet there are some of us that are having to do a bit more to recover.
There is some variable we haven't picked up on.
Off to the TA for some spin tests.
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I had my analog trims centered.
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A bit rushed, gotta get to my shift in the ER but whipped a few spins out.
I didn't find that trim assisted in recovery. And for me there is no recovery, left or right, using only rudder and elevator.
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A bit rushed, gotta get to my shift in the ER but whipped a few spins out.
I didn't find that trim assisted in recovery. And for me there is no recovery, left or right, using only rudder and elevator.
I assume this is with power off?
HiTech
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I"ve tried it many different ways, I can recovery spins left and right with Power on . But Power off, in the P38L I can't stop the rotation to the right by just using normal spin recovery technique. Doesn't matter if I have combat trim on or off or how much out of trim the aircraft is. I can always recovery from a left spin and with power off, never recovery from a right spin. I've used different types of sticks and even just the mouse and keyboard for rudder control. no dice.
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I assume this is with power off?
HiTech
HiTech, I noticed something different between the film that badboy produced of his Right Spin in which he is able to perform a normal spin recovery using rudder and my film of my right spin in which I am unable to perform a normal spin recovery.
The films appear very very similar except as his aircraft is descending in a right spin the airspeed is increasing through out his spin and recovery where the airspeed in my film increases to a point, 127 mph true, and no more. I noticed that in my spins to the left, airspeed continues to increase through out the spin and recovery.
Just wondering?
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I assume this is with power off?
HiTech
Idle power.
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I have tested repeatedly and get the same results. With and without combat trim.
I have not found any difference left or right.
All testing started at 10k about 180 mph
1. Full power , slow to stall speed, full back stick full rudder,
2. Plane begins spin and proceeds to deepen.
3. Set to idle power.
4. Center stick and rudder.
5. Let spin continue 2 or 3 turns to ensure plane is in a fully developed spin.
6. Full opposite rudder. (not much response).
7. Full forward stick while maintaining opposite rudder. Spin rate increase while nose lowers but will not stop.
8. Apply ailerons in the direction of the spin. (spin stops in about 3/4 to 1.5 turns)
HiTech
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I too get reliable recovery if pro spin aileron is used.
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After the spin is established I push the nose down first then add opposite rudder and it recovers right away without aileron input. I know the P-38 manual says rudder first for 1/2 turn then nose down but, as Hitech noted, that increases the spin rate.
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After the spin is established I push the nose down first then add opposite rudder and it recovers right away without aileron input. I know the P-38 manual says rudder first for 1/2 turn then nose down but, as Hitech noted, that increases the spin rate.
What HiTech was looking for was a difference in recovery technique, you don't need aileron, he does. That to me is a difference. I only need to use aileron to stop the rotation in the right spin, left I only use rudder. again a difference. Could be a difference in the controllers . All we do is calibrate and hope for the best. I'm guessing that it's always been this way just was never examined before.
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What HiTech was looking for was a difference in recovery technique, you don't need aileron, he does. That to me is a difference. I only need to use aileron to stop the rotation in the right spin, left I only use rudder. again a difference. Could be a difference in the controllers . All we do is calibrate and hope for the best. I'm guessing that it's always been this way just was never examined before.
I think the difference in my case is simply in the order of inputs. When I used rudder first instead of elevator I got the same results. I posted my sequence to clarify why my results might be different.
I agree with you that you should see the same result from a left or right spin and perhaps your controller is a factor.
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FLS: I think you have just solved the riddle.
I found that if I briskly apply full down and then snap in rudder ,the plane will recover from the spin with power off.
Hence the differences appear to be simply the pilots technique.
HiTech
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FLS: I think you have just solved the riddle.
I found that if I briskly apply full down and then snap in rudder ,the plane will recover from the spin with power off.
Hence the differences appear to be simply the pilots technique.
HiTech
I agree, left and right both recovered. It appears that it must be done in that order and only in that order.
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I think the difference in my case is simply in the order of inputs. When I used rudder first instead of elevator I got the same results. I posted my sequence to clarify why my results might be different.
I'm sorry this wasn't clear. I meant to say with rudder first I got the same results as Hitech. Power to idle in both cases.
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I do think that something or someone is doing something different or settings are possibly different, trying to recover the right spin ....... but what ever it is I do not know
I use the spin recovery steps in the following order
S - Stick nuetral / Stick push full forward
T - Throttle off ( added edit today 1/19: this happens in quick sucession to stick neutral )
O - Opposite Rudder to counter the Spin direction ( added edit today 1/19: this happens in quick sucession immediately after stick forward and the nose is pointed below the horizon by more than 20 to 30 degrees )
P - Pull stick back gradually as speed increases to level out of dive
I have always used this technique for spin recovery for Tail spins / incipient spins........
I understand that an incipient spin is not what one would call a "developed spin"......... it is a spin in the first 1 to 2 rotations
and was figuring that is why Badboy posted he let his test drop 2 K to get a fully developed spin going so as their was no confusion of his test data / film
hope this helps
TC
After the spin is established I push the nose down first then add opposite rudder and it recovers right away without aileron input. I know the P-38 manual says rudder first for 1/2 turn then nose down but, as Hitech noted, that increases the spin rate.
FLS: I think you have just solved the riddle.
I found that if I briskly apply full down and then snap in rudder ,the plane will recover from the spin with power off.
Hence the differences appear to be simply the pilots technique.
HiTech
I agree, left and right both recovered. It appears that it must be done in that order and only in that order.
I am glad that everyone was able to figure it out, why some could recover from either direction , and others were not able to.....
I went and looked at the Spin Recovery tips on our Trainers Website, and remembered that our graphics ( thanks Badboy for the help on them ) actually used the P38 series plane along with a spitfire for demonstration purposes.....
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/spins/spins.htm
wtg FLS, for figuring out why the others were having problems trying to recover from the spin to the right :aok
:salute
TC