Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tank-Ace on January 15, 2012, 11:35:28 PM
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Been noticing talk about hordes is up lately, and hordes have always been one of my pet peves. And so I ask you: why?
Why do you fly in hordes? What benefit does it get you?
If you're after the war win perks, then you should know that the defenders get more perks from killing you guys than you do from the war win. Hordes are about the worst way to earn perks in the game.
If you're out for a fight..... why does it have to be a massive 30v30? a 10v10 is just as fun, and less harmfull to the health of the overall gameplay.
If you're out to capture bases and win the map as easily as possible, you can do that offline for free.
If you're out to stir up anger, and piss people off...... well in that case you're a sadist, and I wish you an unpleasant life.
Just trying to understand the reasoning from the horders perspective. From my perspective, there is no benefit to flying in a horde if you want to actually play the game.
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If you're out to capture bases and win the map as easily as possible, you can do that offline for free.
Are there other players offline you can fly with? An enemy to triumph over? A channel 200 where you can brag? And so on...
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Some gets a sense of "Cool, I'm flying just like they did in WW2". Others "I can't find any fights, so I'll make one".
Others still "I get to see all my buddies, the excitement of vox chatter, the massive formations." A few just wants to take a base as easy as possible, but with friends. A few wants the war to end as quickly as possible. And a very few just wants to pick and score easy kills.
vTards have earned a name for themselves so they don't count.
I love and hate hordes. Love because you can get so many kills in just one pass. Hate because usually, they're the only place you can find action, and I have an urge to just duel someone in a 1 v 1 or a nice 2 v 2.
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I might also add the overwhelming majority of players is ending up "hording" at one point or another during a week or even during a day of AH. Pure "hordelings" are not the majority, and those alleged anti horders aren't as well.
Players are also verrrry quick with the horde tag, often it's just happening as a result of the ever fluid dynamics on a battlefield and not a result of a mission. Players do like to fly together, they do love to "win", and sometimes one particular targets is just in focus.
And since the switch time went back to 12 hours, I found myself being part of a horde quite frequently, because switching to the underdog is mostly no option anymore.
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horde is just more lemmings to kill, nothing more nothing less you can complain all you want and they are still going to be here so just deal with it and kill them.
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dont really know your situation tank-ace. but you post lots of threads about why people do this, why people do that and yet you dont really play the game. so my question is why post questions about things that dont really affect you. not trying to be rude or anything. but it seems that you have forgotten what is like to have a 20v20 or 30v30 furball. when you that many people you are actually flying in 1/2 a sector at the very least which is a very large space, unless of course you see a noe mission in which case it will within icon range. but that ends within 1 or 2 minutes tops.
anyway whenever there's a large furball it may seem large but you have this constant players dying/coming back and you push or retreat and it may go for an hour or two and it's a lot of fun, some people dont like it, well they dont have to participate.
I dont care what people say about "I dont fly in hordes" but some are just full of it as they will stay in the outskirts and kill whatever passes by. there still part of it, perhaps not in the middle but they arent totally innocent bystanders either. there's only a handful of players that I know who would rather fight with 2 or 3 players on each side, nothing wrong with that.
there's a big difference between a horde that just rolls bases and a horde v horde furball. but who the hell are we to criticize either. I am beginning to realize that people pay their 15 bucks to play the game their way, they have fun their way. while you and I may not agree with how some people play or dont play the game, we are nobody to tell anybody else in the game how they should have fun. If we dont like the way they play, we can always go somewhere else that is more to your/mine liking.
:salute
semp
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No, I remember they're spread out over 1/2 a sector (and even that can be a very dense furball for some of the larger hordes). But if you go into the thick of it, you can have problems egressing (eg, you get jumped when low fuel, or your trail of oil draws every lemming within visual range :banana:). And if you work the sides...... well personally, I just don't like working the sides.
And I'm just posting this out of idol curiosity. Yeah, I don't (didn't?) like the hordes. But I'm just trying to gain some understanding of what compels people to act like lemmings at times. Don't get me wrong, I love missions, and flying in coordination with my friends. I have nothing against team work or anything. But theres a difference between an organized mission that intends to do some fighting, and a mission that just rounds up a big group of people and throws them NOE at a base.
Personally, I feel that a nice 5-7vs5-7 is about the perfect sized fight. Not so big as go far beyond icon range of most, if any, of the planes, but still big enough that if the fight is close to a base, people that get shot down can reup and get back in the fight before it ends.
But beyond that, I get the feeling in a horde that everyone is just out for kills, they don't really care anything in particular for the actual fight.
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you not getting enough attention from mommy & daddy or something?
just curious why someone without a subscription to the game spends so much time complaining about how other people play it (spitfire whines, Top Gun whines, now horde whines)
:headscratch:
just lonely i guess
edit: and this definitely is a horde whine, thinly veiled as a question :)
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you not getting enough attention from mommy & daddy or something?
just curious why someone without a subscription to the game spends so much time complaining about how other people play it (spitfire whines, Top Gun whines, now horde whines)
:headscratch:
just lonely i guess
edit: and this definitely is a horde whine, thinly veiled as a question :)
:aok
Probably shading in AcesHigh. Take your pick from the many shades and he's probably one of them.
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Some gets a sense of "Cool, I'm flying just like they did in WW2". Others "I can't find any fights, so I'll make one".
Others still "I get to see all my buddies, the excitement of vox chatter, the massive formations." A few just wants to take a base as easy as possible, but with friends. A few wants the war to end as quickly as possible. And a very few just wants to pick and score easy kills.
vTards have earned a name for themselves so they don't count.
I love and hate hordes. Love because you can get so many kills in just one pass. Hate because usually, they're the only place you can find action, and I have an urge to just duel someone in a 1 v 1 or a nice 2 v 2.
The Brigade actually is rarely in a "Horde". The times you will see us in a horde is when we are helping out or joining in with a posted mission of which we did not plan or organize. try flying with us before you label us with the "horde" brand.
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The Brigade actually is rarely in a "Horde". The times you will see us in a horde is when we are helping out or joining in with a posted mission of which we did not plan or organize. try flying with us before you label us with the "horde" brand.
Who trains your pilots. It seems that three turns in they just fly straight. Possibly perplexed as what to do.
When the 80th brings in someone they have to serve as CO till we find another victim.
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Who trains your pilots. It seems that three turns in they just fly straight. Possibly perplexed as what to do.
When the 80th brings in someone they have to serve as CO till we find another victim.
no one is trained for being a fighter pilot within our squad. we have many members that are good at different things. we have some that are gvers that get in a plane a good bit but its not their thing. We also have a few that love to fly in bombers, that will also fly in a fighter but its not one of the things they enjoy. Everyone in the squad only does things that they enjoy to do, none are forced to fly fighters or any specific aircraft. however when we do missions, we prefer that everyone is in the same aircraft or gv, except for a few that are asked to do something else that will aid the mission in another way. The main thing that we do train is the ability to dive bomb. we have only a few that can drop a bomb and hit what they were aiming for. Others, drop and hope they hit what they were assigned, for those that want help, we will help, but those that don't, we wont if they don't want it. All of our members fly together because they enjoy the atmosphere of the relationship between squad mates and they enjoy the way our squad works. If they don't like how we work, their welcome to leave, its their $15 a month. We have a few squads that we fly with and we have had some members go to those squads and we have had some of the other squad members come to us. We are all about having fun together, we careless about what skills we do or don't have, we careless about the ranking system and how it works, we careless about our k/s or k/d ratios. I welcome anyone to fly with us to see how we really operate and how our squad really does things, verses what everyone thinks our squad does.
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The Brigade actually is rarely in a "Horde". The times you will see us in a horde is when we are helping out or joining in with a posted mission of which we did not plan or organize. try flying with us before you label us with the "horde" brand.
i call bs on this item :devil. look at your individual score you will see low percentage of kills while doing lots of damage in attack mode while the number of deaths are not as high as they should be if you were only furballing/defending.
semp
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i call bs on this item :devil. look at your individual score you will see low percentage of kills while doing lots of damage in attack mode while the number of deaths are not as high as they should be if you were only furballing/defending.
semp
refer to my post above yours. Also what does kills/damage/furballing/defending have to do with hording. If i understand correctly, a horde is a large amount of players that are flying together. What exactly does kills or any of that have to do with hording? I would really like to know the correct definition of what a horde is....
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Another thread on hordes :rolleyes:
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i call bs on this item :devil. look at your individual score you will see low percentage of kills while doing lots of damage in attack mode while the number of deaths are not as high as they should be if you were only furballing/defending.
semp
Another pig throwing out a subtle insult at the devils brigade :huh. Both of your squads are very similar in skill and gameplay, both have a few very good players, both have terrible players, both have timid players, both have aggressive players etc etc etc. Why a couple pigs try to distance themselves from a squad that they are very similar to is confusing at best. Over the last 3 months or so I have been gangraped by pigs faaaar more than the brigade. I think it is funny that so many folks refer to the brigade as "vtards" and insult them continuously for the same gameplay they practice :rofl :rofl
BTW, I've seen many many insults and disrespect thrown at the brigade, I've yet to see the same level of insults and disrespect coming from the brigade, weird. Ofcourse vdallas is in a class of his own :lol
They horde, you horde, many horde. Hording is fine and is the way the game is evolving. Now lets find a way to get you horders to defend your prize for a while before you move on to the next horde mission!
:salute
JUGgler
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Are there other players offline you can fly with? An enemy to triumph over? A channel 200 where you can brag? And so on...
no.
:cry :cry :cry :bolt:
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Another pig throwing out a subtle insult at the devils brigade :huh. Both of your squads are very similar in skill and gameplay, both have a few very good players, both have terrible players, both have timid players, both have aggressive players etc etc etc. Why a couple pigs try to distance themselves from a squad that they are very similar to is confusing at best. Over the last 3 months or so I have been gangraped by pigs faaaar more than the brigade. I think it is funny that so many folks refer to the brigade as "vtards" and insult them continuously for the same gameplay they practice :rofl :rofl
BTW, I've seen many many insults and disrespect thrown at the brigade, I've yet to see the same level of insults and disrespect coming from the brigade, weird. Ofcourse vdallas is in a class of his own :lol
They horde, you horde, many horde. Hording is fine and is the way the game is evolving. Now lets find a way to get you horders to defend your prize for a while before you move on to the next horde mission!
:salute
JUGgler
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semp
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I might also add the overwhelming majority of players is ending up "hording" at one point or another during a week or even during a day of AH. Pure "hordelings" are not the majority, and those alleged anti horders aren't as well.
Players are also verrrry quick with the horde tag, often it's just happening as a result of the ever fluid dynamics on a battlefield and not a result of a mission. Players do like to fly together, they do love to "win", and sometimes one particular targets is just in focus.
And since the switch time went back to 12 hours, I found myself being part of a horde quite frequently, because switching to the underdog is mostly no option anymore.
This explains it perfectly in my opinion.
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One of the reasons I fly in hordes is to win the war and steam-roll bases. :devil
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no one is trained for being a fighter pilot within our squad. we have many members that are good at different things. we have some that are gvers that get in a plane a good bit but its not their thing. We also have a few that love to fly in bombers, that will also fly in a fighter but its not one of the things they enjoy. Everyone in the squad only does things that they enjoy to do, none are forced to fly fighters or any specific aircraft. however when we do missions, we prefer that everyone is in the same aircraft or gv, except for a few that are asked to do something else that will aid the mission in another way. The main thing that we do train is the ability to dive bomb. we have only a few that can drop a bomb and hit what they were aiming for. Others, drop and hope they hit what they were bellybutton igned, for those that want help, we will help, but those that don't, we wont if they don't want it. All of our members fly together because they enjoy the atmosphere of the relationship between squad mates and they enjoy the way our squad works. If they don't like how we work, their welcome to leave, its their $15 a month. We have a few squads that we fly with and we have had some members go to those squads and we have had some of the other squad members come to us. We are all about having fun together, we careless about what skills we do or don't have, we careless about the ranking system and how it works, we careless about our k/s or k/d ratios. I welcome anyone to fly with us to see how we really operate and how our squad really does things, verses what everyone thinks our squad does.
Your first sentence answered my question and was as I thought.
All the rest of the post was for yourself I guess as it does not pertain to the question asked.
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My answer to this question is simple: People who horde give those who actually have skills, to dive in, get kills and have some fun before getting shot down themselves. :aok
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My answer to this question is simple: People who horde give those who actually have skills, to dive in, get kills and have some fun before getting shot down themselves. :aok
100% correct :D
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The horde creates fights.
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My answer to this question is simple: People who horde give those who actually have skills, to dive in, get kills and have some fun before getting shot down themselves. :aok
It doesn't take skill to fight a horde. You fly through firering your guns pinging a few on each pass. Then you run like crazy waiting for them to auger in while trying to dive bomb. No skill required, just a bit of luck.
The horde creates fights.
No it doesn't. It creates a shooting gallery until the FHs are dropped. Then it disappears before.you can get to it from next next field.
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It doesn't take skill to fight a horde. You fly through firering your guns pinging a few on each pass. Then you run like crazy waiting for them to auger in while trying to dive bomb. No skill required, just a bit of luck.
No it doesn't. It creates a shooting gallery until the FHs are dropped. Then it disappears before.you can get to it from next next field.
if you expect a great balanced setup, join a scenario, the main is the main is what it is. we can't change it
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dont really know your situation tank-ace. but you post lots of threads about why people do this, why people do that and yet you dont really play the game. so my question is why post questions about things that dont really affect you. not trying to be rude or anything. but it seems that you have forgotten what is like to have a 20v20 or 30v30 furball. when you that many people you are actually flying in 1/2 a sector at the very least which is a very large space, unless of course you see a noe mission in which case it will within icon range. but that ends within 1 or 2 minutes tops.
anyway whenever there's a large furball it may seem large but you have this constant players dying/coming back and you push or retreat and it may go for an hour or two and it's a lot of fun, some people dont like it, well they dont have to participate.
I dont care what people say about "I dont fly in hordes" but some are just full of it as they will stay in the outskirts and kill whatever passes by. there still part of it, perhaps not in the middle but they arent totally innocent bystanders either. there's only a handful of players that I know who would rather fight with 2 or 3 players on each side, nothing wrong with that.
there's a big difference between a horde that just rolls bases and a horde v horde furball. but who the hell are we to criticize either. I am beginning to realize that people pay their 15 bucks to play the game their way, they have fun their way. while you and I may not agree with how some people play or dont play the game, we are nobody to tell anybody else in the game how they should have fun. If we dont like the way they play, we can always go somewhere else that is more to your/mine liking.
:salute
semp
+1
Oh wait a minute, I don't count.
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if you expect a great balanced setup, join a scenario, the main is the main is what it is. we can't change it
Why not? It changed from what it was to what it is. Why can't it change.back?
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I think it's constantly changing a little bit at a time. Notice how efficteve NOE raids used to be compared to how ineffective they are now?
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Why not? It changed from what it was to what it is. Why can't it change.back?
give it a try, you got my vote
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It doesn't take skill to fight a horde. You fly through firering your guns pinging a few on each pass. Then you run like crazy waiting for them to auger in while trying to dive bomb. No skill required, just a bit of luck.
:rofl
This past Saturday, I did exactly what you describe. I had upped a 190D to investigate a red dot showing on the radar. Never found the guy, so returned to base. As I arrived back at my field I noticed an incoming horde of P38s. I was considerably higher then them, so I was able to dive through the cloud of 38s several times, pinging as many as I could.
When they started their bomb runs, I scored 6 kills as they followed their bombs into the ground and augured.
I don't understand why anyone finds that to be fun.
I especially don't understand why the guys who can actually fly and fight, find any enjoyment in flying with the horde. If they were capping and vulching, then we would know that it is about scoring as many kills as possible. But the way they drop hangars and roll over the bases, the horde scores very very few actual kills. I just don't get it.
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DArena :headscratch:
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I think it's constantly changing a little bit at a time. Notice how efficteve NOE raids used to be compared to how ineffective they are now?
NOEs are very effective, especially when they are with 30 guys. HTC changed the dar settings and they dropped in use until there is an "island" map up. Then NOEs are.as popular as they were before the change.
Yes the change has happened slow, years in fact. It is too hard.to excel in this game as an individual due to the skills needed to do so. So instead of learning, and practice they opt for instant gratification by joining a horde to hide their suckage in.
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It doesn't take skill to fight a horde. You fly through firering your guns pinging a few on each pass. Then you run like crazy waiting for them to auger in while trying to dive bomb. No skill required, just a bit of luck.
No it doesn't. It creates a shooting gallery until the FHs are dropped. Then it disappears before.you can get to it from next next field.
Hence the "having fun" part :neener:
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:O :O What if the hoard is Naked? :x :x :x
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Horde beats up vacant field several acks and hangers found dead, film at 11:00.
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Some of the people on this forum astound me. Nothing but a bunch of "aces" that think they know everything and that their way to play the game is the only correct way. You "aces" drive people away cause you argue with others to try to convince them that your way is the only way. You people are pathetic! If people like to fly in hordes then let them and don't try to convince them that they have no skill cause they fly in a "horde". Geez, if people like to make ho shots then their going to make them. No it doesn't mean that their not skilled, it means that you failed to maneuver to avoid the ho shot. You people on here are the real whiners. You few that have to try and prove to everyone that they have no skill, play the game wrong, and flying with a mission is a horde, are the truly pathetic people. Why does it matter is a pilot is "trained" or not? If they don't want to be you cant force them. It's their $15. Go ahead and start the flaming.
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Some of the people on this forum astound me. Nothing but a bunch of "aces" that think they know everything and that their way to play the game is the only correct way. You "aces" drive people away cause you argue with others to try to convince them that your way is the only way. You people are pathetic! If people like to fly in hordes then let them and don't try to convince them that they have no skill cause they fly in a "horde". Geez, if people like to make ho shots then their going to make them. No it doesn't mean that their not skilled, it means that you failed to maneuver to avoid the ho shot. You people on here are the real whiners. You few that have to try and prove to everyone that they have no skill, play the game wrong, and flying with a mission is a horde, are the truly pathetic people. Why does it matter is a pilot is "trained" or not? If they don't want to be you cant force them. It's their $15. Go ahead and start the flaming.
fricking vtard is right :rofl :rofl.
I typed this while being naked.
semp
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It doesn't take skill to fight a horde. You fly through firering your guns pinging a few on each pass. Then you run like crazy waiting for them to auger in while trying to dive bomb. No skill required, just a bit of luck.
No it doesn't. It creates a shooting gallery until the FHs are dropped. Then it disappears before.you can get to it from next next field.
hmmm....that's not how I fight the hoard.... :headscratch:
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lol and don't forget to blame the lack of defense on the attackers. Blame a failed defense on ho shots and unfair whatnots.
If you're in a horde and I'm in it too, go ahead and blame failing to take the base on spies, then expect to get squelched by me. Don't even consider the fact that they may have mounted a good defense or that the offense wasn't up to par on tactics or execution.
Dogfights make the game fun. Jaw'gfights produce nothing worthwhile. Just ask anyone who's been stuck between **dway and **rannis. If you insist on turning to a debate to decide who the real winner actually was, don't try and drag the whole community into your hemisphere of bulls**t.
<S> those who don't cry foul at the drop of a red flag in town, or the drop of an entire mission over an enemy field.
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lol and don't forget to blame the lack of defense on the attackers. Blame a failed defense on ho shots and unfair whatnots.
If you're in a horde and I'm in it too, go ahead and blame failing to take the base on spies, then expect to get squelched by me. Don't even consider the fact that they may have mounted a good defense or that the offense wasn't up to par on tactics or execution.
Dogfights make the game fun. Jaw'gfights produce nothing worthwhile. Just ask anyone who's been stuck between **dway and **rannis. If you insist on turning to a debate to decide who the real winner actually was, don't try and drag the whole community into your hemisphere of bulls**t.
<S> those who don't cry foul at the drop of a red flag in town, or the drop of an entire mission over an enemy field.
The establishment of horde is here, and it is fine. The game would be less fun without horde. Now the game would be more fun with a defense motivator!
lets figure it out!
JUGgler
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I think it already goes both ways, like the flip of a coin. It would be impossible to make everything even out exactly every time. :cheers: Uncertainty keeps it fun :banana:
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Some of the people on this forum astound me. Nothing but a bunch of "aces" that think they know everything and that their way to play the game is the only correct way. You "aces" drive people away cause you argue with others to try to convince them that your way is the only way. You people are pathetic! If people like to fly in hordes then let them and don't try to convince them that they have no skill cause they fly in a "horde". Geez, if people like to make ho shots then their going to make them. No it doesn't mean that their not skilled, it means that you failed to maneuver to avoid the ho shot. You people on here are the real whiners. You few that have to try and prove to everyone that they have no skill, play the game wrong, and flying with a mission is a horde, are the truly pathetic people. Why does it matter is a pilot is "trained" or not? If they don't want to be you cant force them. It's their $15. Go ahead and start the flaming.
Opps looks like you clicked on a thread that doesn't interest you. Or maybe you want to be a mod.
The boards have a lot of points of view. Read and enjoy.
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:x :x :x I read this Naked! :x :x :x
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I might also add the overwhelming majority of players is ending up "hording" at one point or another during a week or even during a day of AH. Pure "hordelings" are not the majority, and those alleged anti horders aren't as well.
Players are also verrrry quick with the horde tag, often it's just happening as a result of the ever fluid dynamics on a battlefield and not a result of a mission. Players do like to fly together, they do love to "win", and sometimes one particular targets is just in focus.
And since the switch time went back to 12 hours, I found myself being part of a horde quite frequently, because switching to the underdog is mostly no option anymore.
Yep, you can be in a small fight that attracts a whole bunch of friendlies and next thing you know, your're a horde monkey. Or vice-versa.
I do notice more coordinated attacks in today's single arena LW though. Just like Titanic Tuesday had a different feel to it that one day of the week, except now it's every day.
Not that it's an option to go back to multiple LW arenas, just an observation.
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Some of the people on this forum astound me. Nothing but a bunch of "aces" that think they know everything and that their way to play the game is the only correct way. You "aces" drive people away cause you argue with others to try to convince them that your way is the only way. You people are pathetic! If people like to fly in hordes then let them and don't try to convince them that they have no skill cause they fly in a "horde". Geez, if people like to make ho shots then their going to make them. No it doesn't mean that their not skilled, it means that you failed to maneuver to avoid the ho shot. You people on here are the real whiners. You few that have to try and prove to everyone that they have no skill, play the game wrong, and flying with a mission is a horde, are the truly pathetic people. Why does it matter is a pilot is "trained" or not? If they don't want to be you cant force them. It's their $15. Go ahead and start the flaming.
Lol, no, us skilled players (ie, those of us that don't need 15 extra buddies to back us up, or carrying ord incase we miss) are just saying that, if you take the time to learn (yeah, I knok, terrifying :rolleyes:), you'll have more fun.
This is true because:
1) you can fight in more situations (eg, when you don't have a numbers advantage) and still hold your own
2) you can still fly with the horde if you want to
3) you'll be more effective in the horde
4) you can watch nooblets run from you, which is, frankly, funny as hell.
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Some of the people on this forum astound me. Nothing but a bunch of "aces" that think they know everything and that their way to play the game is the only correct way. You "aces" drive people away cause you argue with others to try to convince them that your way is the only way. You people are pathetic! If people like to fly in hordes then let them and don't try to convince them that they have no skill cause they fly in a "horde". Geez, if people like to make ho shots then their going to make them. No it doesn't mean that their not skilled, it means that you failed to maneuver to avoid the ho shot. You people on here are the real whiners. You few that have to try and prove to everyone that they have no skill, play the game wrong, and flying with a mission is a horde, are the truly pathetic people. Why does it matter is a pilot is "trained" or not? If they don't want to be you cant force them. It's their $15. Go ahead and start the flaming.
OK, answer me this. Why join a race team if your always going to hide at the back of the pack and never try to win? Why join a football team if every time anyone else comes near you you drop the ball and run the other way? Why buy the best baseball bat and then pull it out of the path of the pitches because you don't want to mark it up?
Why pay $15 a month to avoid fights, never try to get better at bombing or fighting (because you have 20 buddies to cover your suckage) in a game designed around combat and competition?
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OK, answer me this. Why join a race team if your always going to hide at the back of the pack and never try to win? Why join a football team if every time anyone else comes near you you drop the ball and run the other way? Why buy the best baseball bat and then pull it out of the path of the pitches because you don't want to mark it up?
Why pay $15 a month to avoid fights, never try to get better at bombing or fighting (because you have 20 buddies to cover your suckage) in a game designed around combat and competition?
Fugi i hate to say it but your searching for a answer that will never come... in this game some are leaders, some are followers i think they follow.
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lol and don't forget to blame the lack of defense on the attackers. Blame a failed defense on ho shots and unfair whatnots.
If you're in a horde and I'm in it too, go ahead and blame failing to take the base on spies, then expect to get squelched by me. Don't even consider the fact that they may have mounted a good defense or that the offense wasn't up to par on tactics or execution.
Dogfights make the game fun. Jaw'gfights produce nothing worthwhile. Just ask anyone who's been stuck between **dway and **rannis. If you insist on turning to a debate to decide who the real winner actually was, don't try and drag the whole community into your hemisphere of bulls**t.
<S> those who don't cry foul at the drop of a red flag in town, or the drop of an entire mission over an enemy field.
I don't blame the hordes/attackers for the weak defense, but I do blame them for stifling the fun in the arenas. Instead of having 3 or 4 good fights along each front with people battling hard back and forth we get the Bish horde sneaking a base on the Rook front while the Rook horde is sneaking one from the Knights, as the Knit horde is grabbing one from the Bish. :rolleyes:
Fugi i hate to say it but your searching for a answer that will never come... in this game some are leaders, some are followers i think they follow.
Agreed, but if some of the "leaders" started leading them into defensive missions instead of always looking to attack we would get more battles, which to me is where the fun is.
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I don't blame the hordes/attackers for the weak defense, but I do blame them for stifling the fun in the arenas. Instead of having 3 or 4 good fights along each front with people battling hard back and forth we get the Bish horde sneaking a base on the Rook front while the Rook horde is sneaking one from the Knights, as the Knit horde is grabbing one from the Bish. :rolleyes:
Agreed, but if some of the "leaders" started leading them into defensive missions instead of always looking to attack we would get more battles, which to me is where the fun is.
now you have to paint a cartoon about yourself ;)
you can't change the main!
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The establishment of horde is here, and it is fine. The game would be less fun without horde. Now the game would be more fun with a defense motivator!
lets figure it out!
JUGgler
how can you motivate somebody to defend if as you guys say time and time again, it is silly to be loyal to a chesspiece so in your context who cares if the base is taken or not as I wont really be here for long.
semp
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how can you motivate somebody to defend if as you guys say time and time again, it is silly to be loyal to a chesspiece so in your context who cares if the base is taken or not as I wont really be here for long.
semp
Well this is a fairly good point, but I'll say whether I'm bish, knit or rook I try to prevent the base I'm at from being captured. I would also say any squadie in proximity is doing the same. You see I might go to the tower 20 times or more during a capture attempt, in the end if the you give up on the capture then the last laugh is mine and everyone knows it :aok So you see there is a little motivation albeit mainly for dorks like me. Now make it so defenders don't have to visit the tower 20 times to defend and more will defend! or "counter attack" as I've suggested before!
Again I am all for the hordes, I think they are healthy and the "new norm". What is not "community healthy" is the relative lack of challenge to the hordes!
Make bases easier to take, raise the minimum radar alt back to 200' and you will have less hording to capture bases. There will be more N.O.E. but squads "as they did in the past" will be more inclined to try and capture bases within their own "squad mission" without involving the "community tag alongs" that currently swell base taking ranks mission #s to obsene sizes.
OR
Have a delay from the moment that 10 troops enter the map room before the base actually changes hands so you guys will have to modestly defend you potential prize for a little while!
JUGgler
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Lol, no, us skilled players (ie, those of us that don't need 15 extra buddies to back us up, or carrying ord incase we miss) are just saying that, if you take the time to learn (yeah, I knok, terrifying :rolleyes:), you'll have more fun.
This is true because:
1) you can fight in more situations (eg, when you don't have a numbers advantage) and still hold your own
2) you can still fly with the horde if you want to
3) you'll be more effective in the horde
4) you can watch nooblets run from you, which is, frankly, funny as hell.
You act like i just started playing this game. Iv been here for awhile. I can hold my own in the skies. Not all people want to go about and try to be the "hero" or the "one man army". Maybe we enjoy being able to fly with our squaddies. And yes, they are there for back up, that's what they are supposed to do. THEY ARE YOUR WINGMAN!
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OK, answer me this. Why join a race team if your always going to hide at the back of the pack and never try to win? Why join a football team if every time anyone else comes near you you drop the ball and run the other way? Why buy the best baseball bat and then pull it out of the path of the pitches because you don't want to mark it up?
Why pay $15 a month to avoid fights, never try to get better at bombing or fighting (because you have 20 buddies to cover your suckage) in a game designed around combat and competition?
A squadron consists of many members. Within those members there are wingmen. I know you know what wingmen do. We dont avoid fights. Show me proof that we do. We usually are attacking a base, therefore that would not be avoiding, it would be penetrating the enemy line (which is moving into) to try and take a base.
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Flying alone in a small fight (5v5 say) isn't even remotely close to trying to play the hero. If you stood up to 15 on your own for the purpose of trying to look cool, yeah, that would be playing the hero.
Saying that 14 other people are your wingmen is REALLY streching a point. 4, maybe 5, I could see. But 15 is just you trying to go for a capture (and with you guys, its not even an easy capture. thats beyond your reach).
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Flying alone in a small fight (5v5 say) isn't even remotely close to trying to play the hero. If you stood up to 15 on your own for the purpose of trying to look cool, yeah, that would be playing the hero.
Saying that 14 other people are your wingmen is REALLY streching a point. 4, maybe 5, I could see. But 15 is just you trying to go for a capture (and with you guys, its not even an easy capture. thats beyond your reach).
i find that hard to believe. Most people get us confused with chewies uncoordinated spur of the moment attacks.
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While i pretty much cant stand the way the v-dudes are flying and playing the game, they are FAR from being the worst.
Except that ominose vTARD (couse he is a real tard) they will never try to insult you. Also they never try to vulch in tempests/c-hogs as a commonly beloved squad does as their daily routine.
Other question that destroying all the hangars only not to meet any opponent then take a practically undefended base would never ever could give me any fun... yea thats pretty low in my dictionary, but thats just me.
Let me offer something: if any vdude would like to became an uber fighter pilot, contact me, i will try to help him in improving. I know i got serious lingual disadvantages, still i will try as i can.
Couse bashing them for not knowing how to fight is one thing... Doing something to change it is an other.
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Well then all I can say is that a lot of alchies must have been masquerading as v-twits, because I remember something like 4 or 5 of suprise horde attacks that got smashed (and I mean smashed) by a significantly smaller group of defenders.
I got something like 8 kills in my Panther on players with a "v" infront of their name in under 2 minutes. Fighter-bomber hordes...... well lets just say that the base wasn't ever capped and hangers were never destroyed.
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15- 20 to players is a horde mission? when the opposing side has 130 more or less players :headscratch do you think in real live we wouldn't horde the enemy
not because we lack skill but a better chance of winning the war
and staying alive.this game is suppose to be realistic?
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15- 20 to players is a horde mission? when the opposing side has 130 more or less players :headscratch do you think in real live we wouldn't horde the enemy
not because we lack skill but a better chance of winning the war
and staying alive.this game is suppose to be realistic?
thats the way i look at it, but somehow its a horde. we usually only operate with 7-10 playes, but it seems to be a horde. Im still waiting on the definition of what a horde really is. From what i can tell ifs its more than a 1v1 then its a horde :aok
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Matt, Herr vTWI.... I mean TROOPER.
1) the whole 'war' boils down to 25 perks in each category (about maybe an hours worth) and a new map......the new map is only sometimes better than the current one.
2) we get an infinite number of lives. I can go crash into the ground 1000 times in a row, and still do it an infinite number of times after that.
Since our cartoon war is pretty much pointless, and we risk nothing by dying, then wouldn't it make sense to play for the fight and to improve, rather than to win a war that you have no stake in?
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While i pretty much cant stand the way the v-dudes are flying and playing the game, they are FAR from being the worst.
Except that ominose vTARD (couse he is a real tard) they will never try to insult you. Also they never try to vulch in tempests/c-hogs as a commonly beloved squad does as their daily routine.
Other question that destroying all the hangars only not to meet any opponent then take a practically undefended base would never ever could give me any fun... yea thats pretty low in my dictionary, but thats just me.
Let me offer something: if any vdude would like to became an uber fighter pilot, contact me, i will try to help him in improving. I know i got serious lingual disadvantages, still i will try as i can.
Couse bashing them for not knowing how to fight is one thing... Doing something to change it is an other.
Destroying hanges is just a way we do it. That how our squad works, yes there are many ways to go about it. And we do change things up from time to time; HOWEVER, when we are only 3-4 bases from winning the war, we will flatten a failed just to ensure its capture.
Also, I will be sure that the next time i am on we will attempt at taking a base with dropping all the hangers. We will leave all fighter hangers up but VH and BHs will most likely go down. I will even go out of my to send you a PM and tell around what time we will do it, then all you have to do is look for the dar bar. No i wont announce it and im not making a bet saying that you cant stop us, but for the fun of things i will give you a estimate of 30min of when we will take off and let you figure out the rest.
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Matt, Herr vTWI.... I mean TROOPER.
1) the whole 'war' boils down to 25 perks in each category (about maybe an hours worth) and a new map......the new map is only sometimes better than the current one.
2) we get an infinite number of lives. I can go crash into the ground 1000 times in a row, and still do it an infinite number of times after that.
Since our cartoon war is pretty much pointless, and we risk nothing by dying, then wouldn't it make sense to play for the fight and to improve, rather than to win a war that you have no stake in?
I prefer to take bases, if it's a good map I don't take any joy in resetting it. If I don't like the map I love it when it gets reset asap regardless of who's doing the base taking.
And Tank Ace, not one of your vINSULTS will help any member of my squad see things your way. If you want to have a discussion, take part in it. Hurling insults that aren't even clever is the way children and politicians try to prove their point, not adults. If you want a seat at the big boys table, you need to act like one first.
ps.
When you brag about how many v guys you kill on the forum, you sound a lot like those gamblers who always say they break even. You know, the guys who go to the casino, immediately lose $50 then win $10 and somehow feel as though they're ahead.
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And blatanly lying about your squad's method of operation to try and look better for the public is a sign of maturity? Go give trooper an ear full before you come to me with that argument.
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I'll just take more of your airfields.
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stuff
I tell you what will happen: i will be there alone in a 109 G6 getting killed over and over in the simmilar way: cant catch your faster planes running while 3 others are closing on my six. As it happened many times.
Our games and goals are completely different. You want the base/war, i only want a good turnfight.
I made an offer: i would try to teach one vdude to everything i know, if theres one who is up for it. Its not any kind of insult, dont take it that way please. Its a kind of challenge for me, what can i do, and an opportunity for him, if he wants to learn ACMs and became a top notch fighter pilot in 2-3 months. It may open a window to him to see this game from another viewpoint and would allow him to get more fun and success.
Please tell it to your squad, and if there is anyone up for it, send me a PM here or in game.
:salute
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more.....stuff..
i will, and i can guarantee someone will take you up on the offer, and if they dont, i will personally. I am always interested in learning something new.
:salute
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And blatanly lying about your squad's method of operation to try and look better for the public is a sign of maturity? Go give trooper an ear full before you come to me with that argument.
Proof please... :aok
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Another thread on hordes :rolleyes:
Yea have to read the forms every once in a wile to remember why I don't read the forms :bolt:
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And blatanly lying about your squad's method of operation to try and look better for the public is a sign of maturity? Go give trooper an ear full before you come to me with that argument.
who really cares other than you tankace er umm Nemisis, someone that does not even play the game. go do your chores and maybe mom will pay your account so you can come back and show us all just how good you are :rolleyes:
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who really cares other than you tankace er umm Nemisis, someone that does not even play the game. go do your chores and maybe mom will pay your account so you can come back and show us all just how good you are :rolleyes:
He's got nothing better to do but piss and moan about something. It is funny because he is a active and acts like he knows how the game play is. Makes me wonder what shade he is flying as. :noid
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Again I am all for the hordes, I think they are healthy and the "new norm". What is not "community healthy" is the relative lack of challenge to the hordes!
JUGgler
but we dont even know what is "community healthy". we all think that our way of playing is better than anybody elses and that our way is better for the community. perhaps the people who you want to help find a "challenge" dont want help as they dont see it as having a lack of challenge.
for example: many people make fun of me because i cant land a spitfire wheels down (actually i land most airplanes wheels up, faster to get another). they have even taken the time to teach me, i actually got some pm's the other day when i made a comment about it. well even though i appreciate the advise, to be honest with you, I have no interest in learning to land spitfire wheels down. coudnt care less and if they made a rule that you had to land wheels down to get full points, I still wouldnt learn it as I dont see it as making the game any more fun for me.
I wonder how many people who fly in the hordes only, have no interest in learning the game as they are only here for a couple of hours just to pass time. and they dont see furballing/fighting 1v1 as something that they want to learn to make the game anymore enjoyable. and those who do want to learn will learn it on their own time if and when they get "bored" of "hording".
semp
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but we dont even know what is "community healthy". we all think that our way of playing is better than anybody elses and that our way is better for the community. perhaps the people who you want to help find a "challenge" dont want help as they dont see it as having a lack of challenge.
for example: many people make fun of me because i cant land a spitfire wheels down (actually i land most airplanes wheels up, faster to get another). they have even taken the time to teach me, i actually got some pm's the other day when i made a comment about it. well even though i appreciate the advise, to be honest with you, I have no interest in learning to land spitfire wheels down. coudnt care less and if they made a rule that you had to land wheels down to get full points, I still wouldnt learn it as I dont see it as making the game any more fun for me.
I wonder how many people who fly in the hordes only, have no interest in learning the game as they are only here for a couple of hours just to pass time. and they dont see furballing/fighting 1v1 as something that they want to learn to make the game anymore enjoyable. and those who do want to learn will learn it on their own time if and when they get "bored" of "hording".
semp
I could care less if peeps wish to learn or not, I find this argument ridiculous in its own rite. What noob would like to learn from me by flying "clean" in a 1v1 and getting waxed 2 turns after the merge for hours on end just to "LEARN"-----> NONE, I hope!
I do not wish folks to play "my way". I see a disparity, an odd consiquence to changes that I (and many others) think could be improved. If you think my motivation is that "I want to win all the time" hence me, me, me. Then why would I up at stupendously ridiculous odds and lose time and again? That is hardly winning, and it is hardly me, me, me. I actually think the "war" aspect of this game, If properly set up could improve it imeasurably, folks perform better when they have something to gain or lose, yes even in a silly game!
As it is now I see (for the most part) the "war game" as heavily one sided with little motivation to either hold what you've gained or defend what you might lose.
JUGgler
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I could care less if peeps wish to learn or not, I find this argument ridiculous in its own rite. What noob would like to learn from me by flying "clean" in a 1v1 and getting waxed 2 turns after the merge for hours on end just to "LEARN"-----> NONE, I hope!
I do not wish folks to play "my way". I see a disparity, an odd consiquence to changes that I (and many others) think could be improved. If you think my motivation is that "I want to win all the time" hence me, me, me. Then why would I up at stupendously ridiculous odds and lose time and again? That is hardly winning, and it is hardly me, me, me. I actually think the "war" aspect of this game, If properly set up could improve it imeasurably, folks perform better when they have something to gain or lose, yes even in a silly game!
As it is now I see (for the most part) the "war game" as heavily one sided with little motivation to either hold what you've gained or defend what you might lose.
JUGgler
dont take it personal as I didnt mean it that way. and it wasnt directed at you specifically even though i quoted you, but more at all of us and our ideas of how the game should improve/going down the drain because we like/dont like this or that.
sorry if it came out as against you but that was not my intention :salute.
semp
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Destroying hanges is just a way we do it. That how our squad works, yes there are many ways to go about it. And we do change things up from time to time; HOWEVER, when we are only 3-4 bases from winning the war, we will flatten a failed just to ensure its capture.
Also, I will be sure that the next time i am on we will attempt at taking a base with dropping all the hangers. We will leave all fighter hangers up but VH and BHs will most likely go down. I will even go out of my to send you a PM and tell around what time we will do it, then all you have to do is look for the dar bar. No i wont announce it and im not making a bet saying that you cant stop us, but for the fun of things i will give you a estimate of 30min of when we will take off and let you figure out the rest.
...and is also a way to avoid fights.
This is a horde, granted this is one of Chewies hordes, but the are all the same. Please note that there are more names on the list, and also not the altitude of the attackers. This was another NOE attack on a base. I did get to up 3 times and get 6-7 kills before the hangers were dropped and the "fight" if that is what you want to call it, was over.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/horde1.jpg)
If someone could tell me how to fight a horde with even a 30% chance of beating them I'd shut up about them and practice doing it. No I'm not going to spend what little free time I can play the game porking bases. No I am not going to spend what little time I have to play the game capping what may or may not be the next target (never can tell because there is never any rime or reason to the "next attack" other than it's an undefended field.
Getting a half a dozen kills before the hangers go down base after base as the horde moves around isn't my idea of fun, but I do it to try and slow them down. When I get bored with that, or frustrated with the lack of fights and too many deaths, I switch to flying WITH the horde. Of course then I get to practice my shooting so I can avoid the kill shooter, get yelled at for stealing someones kills, and have other give me crap when I give them a check 6 they weren't "wanting" :rolleyes:
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dont take it personal as I didnt mean it that way. and it wasnt directed at you specifically even though i quoted you, but more at all of us and our ideas of how the game should improve/going down the drain because we like/dont like this or that.
sorry if it came out as against you but that was not my intention :salute.
semp
I'm not offended in the least semp :salute
JUGgler
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Matt, Herr vTWI.... I mean TROOPER.
1) the whole 'war' boils down to 25 perks in each category (about maybe an hours worth) and a new map......the new map is only sometimes better than the current one.
2) we get an infinite number of lives. I can go crash into the ground 1000 times in a row, and still do it an infinite number of times after that.
Since our cartoon war is pretty much pointless, and we risk nothing by dying, then wouldn't it make sense to play for the fight and to improve, rather than to win a war that you have no stake in?
Nobody plays to win the war just to get perks, it's its own reward. And getting kills or having a high score or even honing your fighters skills for its own sake don't mean anything more than winning the war. It's all just a meaningless game either way, just like any other game or hobby. You decide what your goal is going to be and do what you need to do to accomplish it.
When you play basketball or football or any team sport, you can play to look good, you can play to pad your personal stats, or you can play for your team to win the game, even though that win is completely meaningless unless you're a pro. I've always played to win. I'd rather my team get the win and have lousy personal stats than score 50 points myself but have the team lose. I do love a good fight and I love to get kills, but nothing in this game gives me more of a warm fuzzy feeling than a well-executed mission taking a field, especially if it's vigorously defended. "I love it when a plan comes together."
And taking fields is pretty much the only strategic goal worth pursuing in this game, strat and HQ missions don't accomplish anything. That's just the way the game is set up. That's not to say it's the only thing worth doing, of course, there are lots of ways to enjoy this game.
A lot of times people fly in hordes because the enemy is. Some of the maps (Trinity, Mindinao, NDISLES) channel the whole front into a very narrow area of fields that can practically be attacked, so when lots of people are online any attack on a field is likely to draw a big defense. If there are 30 defenders, a few skilled players might get plenty of kills attacking them, but the only way to suppress the defense enough to get a goon in is to bring the same sort of numbers, or at least to take down the hangars - the defenders have unlimited lives, and the goons are just too slow and vulnerable to survive in contested airspace regardless of the relative skill level of attackers and defenders (unless you bring a horde of goons, but that's just another kind of horde).
vDebrody, if you deplore our methods and skills so much, why do you want everyone to think you're in our squad? They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, right?
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I sure wish there was a defense that was put up to fight the hord attacks. being bish i havnt seen much of a effort in defending. even giving time to up. they just dont show....
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Not really Orange, playing to 'hone your skills' as you put it, still gives you some measure of your accomplishment and tells you just how good you are. You don't get that with a horde, you don't know what you can do, you don't know how good you are, you don't know what you're worth. Since the sides aren't even, you can't even say 'the better country won', all you can say is 'that country won, there may have been a numbers advantage, we don't know the full story'
to quote Vince Lombardi:
"Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while; you don't do things right once in a while; you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.
"There is no room for second place. There is only one place in my game, and that's first place. I have finished second twice in my time at Green Bay, and I don't ever want to finish second again. There is a second place bowl game, but it is a game for losers played by losers. It is and always has been an American zeal to be first in anything we do, and to win, and to win, and to win.
"Every time a football player goes to play his trade he's got to play from the ground up — from the soles of his feet right up to his head. Every inch of him has to play. Some guys play with their heads. That's O.K. You've got to be smart to be number one in any business. But more importantly, you've got to play with your heart, with every fiber of your body. If you're lucky enough to find a guy with a lot of head and a lot of heart, he's never going to come off the field second.
"Running a football team is no different than running any other kind of organization — an army, a political party or a business. The principles are the same. The object is to win — to beat the other guy. Maybe that sounds hard or cruel. I don't think it is.
"It is a reality of life that men are competitive and the most competitive games draw the most competitive men. That's why they are there — to compete. To know the rules and objectives when they get in the game. The object is to win fairly, squarely, by the rules — but to win.
"And in truth, I've never known a man worth his salt who in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline. There is something in good men that really yearns for discipline and the harsh reality of head to head combat.
"I don't say these things because I believe in the "brute" nature of man or that men must be brutalized to be combative. I believe in God, and I believe in human decency. But I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle — victorious."
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I sure wish there was a defense that was put up to fight the hord attacks. being bish i havnt seen much of a effort in defending. even giving time to up. they just dont show....
Which to me is funny. There is so many whines about hordes yet some of the biggest complainers don't up to attempt to fight them or try and organize a defense. It is much easier to type a few paragraphs in a thread and draw a cartoon or two.
People play for different reasons. Your idea of fun may not be the same as others. I have flown in and against hordes and both are fun to do. Anyone who tells you they don't horde, or ho, or pick, or BnZ are not telling the truth 99% off the time.
Oh and the argument of people killing your fun is invalid. You make your own fun.
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Not really Orange, playing to 'hone your skills' as you put it, still gives you some measure of your accomplishment and tells you just how good you are. You don't get that with a horde, you don't know what you can do, you don't know how good you are, you don't know what you're worth. Since the sides aren't even, you can't even say 'the better country won', all you can say is 'that country won, there may have been a numbers advantage, we don't know the full story'
to quote Vince Lombardi:
so what kind of defense do you put up when the never ending horde of drones are attacking you offline?
semp
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I feel like the answer to this should be fairly obvious:
Because it's fun!
People will do what is fun in a sandbox game. Flying with a ton of other people with a common goal is fun.
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I wonder if there would be a special events/arena way for a captureable base to start out neutral, and to have each side to show up and drop their ords in a scorable manner before duking it out to see who wins it. :noid
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Sure there is. Set the base to the third country not in use, and destroy the guns and adjust the repair time before the frame starts. Leave all other field structures up and you're good.
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How about HTC drop the total bases you need to win the war by 10-20%, the twist being that once you have the number of bases you need, a timer starts and you MUST hold that number for 30-60 minutes before you can "Win da Warz". You can't capture any more bases, but must defend. Porking is ok, but no more captures until the timer is up.
Even the low numbered country could stop the win by getting just one base back. What do you think?
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Sounds good. They would probably have to play with the white-flag percentages on the towns, but still a good idea if you ask me.
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How about HTC drop the total bases you need to win the war by 10-20%, the twist being that once you have the number of bases you need, a timer starts and you MUST hold that number for 30-60 minutes before you can "Win da Warz". You can't capture any more bases, but must defend. Porking is ok, but no more captures until the timer is up.
Even the low numbered country could stop the win by getting just one base back. What do you think?
One NOE to a vbase to stop a win? The map would never change unless people purposely weren't trying to stop the win.
Wiley.
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One NOE to a vbase to stop a win? The map would never change unless people purposely weren't trying to stop the win.
Wiley.
I like it... Require them to capture a few more then they need to win. Then they have to hold the winning number at the end of 60 minutes. So the timer starts when. for instance, they reach WIN# + 5. But they only have to hold the winning number after the elapsed time to actually win. Of course, there would be a system message announcing it when they reach that WIN#+5. And maybe system update messages every 10 minutes.
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I feel like if all 3 countries had common targets, the horde complaints would stop. The issue now is that there are a LOT of targets to pick from, and when the "horde" gets together, they pick on just one.
Make taking bases a strategic move, instead of a game-winning move.
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I like it... Require them to capture a few more then they need to win. Then they have to hold the winning number at the end of 60 minutes. So the timer starts when. for instance, they reach WIN# + 5. But they only have to hold the winning number after the elapsed time to actually win. Of course, there would be a system message announcing it when they reach that WIN#+5. And maybe system update messages every 10 minutes.
What would be the motivation to defend instead of rolling another undefended base to keep their number above the threshold?
Wiley.
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What would be the motivation to defend instead of rolling another undefended base to keep their number higher than the other team's?
Wiley.
How about, once the Win timer starts, they are unable to capture additional bases. They either hold the winning number after 60 minutes (or whatever time is determined appropriate), or the other sides capture enough back to prevent the win. In which case everything goes back to normal play, until somebody reaches the WIN#+5 (or whatever the margin is determined appropriate).
The only option wouldbe to defend or attempt to cap enemy bases, or keep hangars down so that no effective counter attacks could be mounted.
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Might work. The numbers would definitely require playing with. It would be very difficult to balance the possibility to hold WIN# against a two front war where the other two countries happened to be motivated to both attack in a committed fashion, and making it reasonably possible to stop the win if both the losing sides weren't firing on all 8.
I have a feeling the majority might just wind up grumpy that they had to wait an additional (x amount of time) before the map switch because stopping the victory requires too much effort.
Wiley.
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General Forums / Wishlist / Re: Bring back the Zone Strat.... please! on: December 31, 2011, 06:16:46 PM
Just an idea, change the % of bases taken to win the war and decrease it by say 5-10% and add strat destruction to 20-30% down in order to win the war. Bring back the zone system but add zones for fuel, ammo, radar etc. Flame on.
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I feel like if all 3 countries had common targets, the horde complaints would stop. The issue now is that there are a LOT of targets to pick from, and when the "horde" gets together, they pick on just one.
Make taking bases a strategic move, instead of a game-winning move.
I think a big problem is that one side is usually getting ganged up on. There needs to be something to balance that out. Either give the side getting jumped SEVERLY reduced perk prices (as in 50 perk KT's :t) or wail the crap out of the two attaking sides with the ENY-stick. Spit V's, P-40's, and 109G2's.
But I wouldn't mind base taking being strategic rather than the end goal of the game. Only problem is how do you detirmine when the war ends? It would be kind of nice if we could have a major strategic goal (say capture the enemy's capital city) and that wins the war for you. But the issue is that we don't suffer from starting populations and attrition rates that would limit the action we could take. We also have no worries about logistics or any of the issues that woule keep us from launching a counter-offensive on the flanks.
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Not really Orange, playing to 'hone your skills' as you put it, still gives you some measure of your accomplishment and tells you just how good you are.
Right. How good you are at playing a game that is completely meaningless.
The point is that all goals in this game are equally meaningless, and therefore equally meaningful. It's just something you do for fun. You aren't a better human being because you can shoot down cartoon planes very skillfully, it's just something you do for fun.
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A lot of these posts seem to be typical whines about people who feel like they're losing yet still want to feel like a winner.
Most of the comments aren't requests to make something more difficult as much as they're begging for htc to make it harder for them to lose while doing what they do, which seems to be losing.
It's already harder to attack than defend so what more could you possibly want besides 1st place trophies for participation? Do you guys really feel that because you're flying alone, and a group flying together has some sort of unfair advantage? I think there's a reason you're flying alone, and it's not my problem if not very many people, and in some cases no people want to squad up with you, or even wing up with you. Nobody ever flies with that kill club guy and you don't see him on here complaining about it being too easy for people to kill him and capture his bases.
Shame on you for using the forum to attack the likeable people who's friends are willing to fly into combat along side them just because the same isn't true of you. Although you think you're better and deserve to win because obviously if you lose it's because you've been cheated and not because you lost fair and square like you actually did.
The way I see it is that the people who are crying unfair on the forum and demanding rule changes to make things more favorable to themselves are real cheaters. I'd like my job a lot more if it paid a million bucks a year but you don't see me crying to the boss about how it's unfair that someone else gets that and I don't, and that because of this they have ruined my career.
The forum isn't here for you to try and generate sympathy for your lack of whatever you're lacking. So don't try to hijack it so you can turn it into group therapy so you can have some self-esteem.
ps.
I've decided to double the number of your bases that we'll be taking. And while you're on the forum crying about it we'll quadruple our consumption of your bases.
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Rob its easier to attack a base then defend it, if it was harder then the hordes wouldnt roll bases now would they.
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Well it is harder for most of them to take a base due to the lack of skill these days. Most of the players in these hordes have a hard time hitting the ground with their bombs, planes yes, bombs no. :devil Thats why they need to have such superior numbers for an attack. They won't admit it even to themselves, but thats how it works. They call it team work.... 4 guys dive bombing the same FH.
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I think a big problem is that one side is usually getting ganged up on. There needs to be something to balance that out. Either give the side getting jumped SEVERLY reduced perk prices (as in 50 perk KT's :t) or wail the crap out of the two attaking sides with the ENY-stick. Spit V's, P-40's, and 109G2's.
But I wouldn't mind base taking being strategic rather than the end goal of the game. Only problem is how do you detirmine when the war ends? It would be kind of nice if we could have a major strategic goal (say capture the enemy's capital city) and that wins the war for you. But the issue is that we don't suffer from starting populations and attrition rates that would limit the action we could take. We also have no worries about logistics or any of the issues that woule keep us from launching a counter-offensive on the flanks.
Ganging is probably a problem that cannot be fixed with three countries in play. I've seen countries get ganged even with fairly even numbers, so I don't think ENY would fix that either, it's just a matter of which country each side decided to attack.
The long and short of this comes down to human nature. You're not going to get rid of large mobs of planes flying together, because that's why people play this game in the MA. Those that want small (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc.) fights fly in the DA. The spontaneous teamwork is very appealing; it really doesn't take a lot of effort to band together in this game.
You can't forcibly deter hordes either, because then people will feel like their ability to play the game is limited (which is true). Something that naturally causes both sides to group up and fight each other is probably the best solution. But then the three countries thing comes into play, and ganging is once again possible.
I don't really see an obvious solution.
However, if we dropped down to two countries, a lot could be done, in my opinion. You'd immediately rid of ganging (ENY would control unbalance, for the most part), and you could create a series of capture points inside each country's boundaries that must be taken in order to win the war. This would give a common attack and defense point, while still creating a reason to tread into enemy territory.
However, I seem to recall that HTC stated they would never get rid of the three country set-up, so that might be a dream.
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A lot of these posts seem to be typical whines about people who feel like they're losing yet still want to feel like a winner.
Most of the comments aren't requests to make something more difficult as much as they're begging for htc to make it harder for them to lose while doing what they do, which seems to be losing.
It's already harder to attack than defend so what more could you possibly want besides 1st place trophies for participation? Do you guys really feel that because you're flying alone, and a group flying together has some sort of unfair advantage? I think there's a reason you're flying alone, and it's not my problem if not very many people, and in some cases no people want to squad up with you, or even wing up with you. Nobody ever flies with that kill club guy and you don't see him on here complaining about it being too easy for people to kill him and capture his bases.
Shame on you for using the forum to attack the likeable people who's friends are willing to fly into combat along side them just because the same isn't true of you. Although you think you're better and deserve to win because obviously if you lose it's because you've been cheated and not because you lost fair and square like you actually did.
The way I see it is that the people who are crying unfair on the forum and demanding rule changes to make things more favorable to themselves are real cheaters. I'd like my job a lot more if it paid a million bucks a year but you don't see me crying to the boss about how it's unfair that someone else gets that and I don't, and that because of this they have ruined my career.
The forum isn't here for you to try and generate sympathy for your lack of whatever you're lacking. So don't try to hijack it so you can turn it into group therapy so you can have some self-esteem.
ps.
I've decided to double the number of your bases that we'll be taking. And while you're on the forum crying about it we'll quadruple our consumption of your bases.
"Likeable", eh. Wouldn't have been the word to sprang to mind to describe a gang of 20-30 guys steamrolling bases.
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The other night I took off at a base that was under attack. We fought them off and pushed the stragglers back. After awhile we had pushed them back to their base. Someone upping at said base then started in about how we were hording them.
My point is this.... sometimes a horde just happens. It is not necessarily from a large group that took off to hit a base. I was in what could be considered a horde. All I did was keep upping to fight. Someone that had not been in the area to see how that battle was going down would obviously assume it was a planned raid.
While I am against hordes I do keep an open mind regarding them. That does not keep me from pushing buttons sometimes. All in fun.
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The other night I took off at a base that was under attack. We fought them off and pushed the stragglers back. After awhile we had pushed them back to their base. Someone upping at said base then started in about how we were hording them.
My point is this.... sometimes a horde just happens. It is not necessarily from a large group that took off to hit a base. I was in what could be considered a horde. All I did was keep upping to fight. Someone that had not been in the area to see how that battle was going down would obviously assume it was a planned raid.
While I am against hordes I do keep an open mind regarding them. That does not keep me from pushing buttons sometimes. All in fun.
Some great fights last night shuffler :salute :cheers:
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Some great fights last night shuffler :salute :cheers:
Yes was great fun... but some bonehead kept killing me.......... :neener:
:salute :cheers:
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http://armorgames.com/play/12823/hordes-of-hordes
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There is no problem hording. The problem is, there are typically 3 hordes... and those 3 hordes do their best to NEVER get anywhere near each other.
HTC could fix this problem... they won't. To many "path of least resistance" types payin the bills.
Tumor
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L...o...l, I would expect nothing else from a vtard but to post this utter nonsense when they are the prime example of the skilless 30-man horde that thinks that what they do is "winning"
However, I don't mind hordes as they typically comprise 3-5 kills....or more depending on squad.
A lot of these posts seem to be typical whines about people who feel like they're losing yet still want to feel like a winner.
Most of the comments aren't requests to make something more difficult as much as they're begging for htc to make it harder for them to lose while doing what they do, which seems to be losing.
It's already harder to attack than defend so what more could you possibly want besides 1st place trophies for participation? Do you guys really feel that because you're flying alone, and a group flying together has some sort of unfair advantage? I think there's a reason you're flying alone, and it's not my problem if not very many people, and in some cases no people want to squad up with you, or even wing up with you. Nobody ever flies with that kill club guy and you don't see him on here complaining about it being too easy for people to kill him and capture his bases.
Shame on you for using the forum to attack the likeable people who's friends are willing to fly into combat along side them just because the same isn't true of you. Although you think you're better and deserve to win because obviously if you lose it's because you've been cheated and not because you lost fair and square like you actually did.
The way I see it is that the people who are crying unfair on the forum and demanding rule changes to make things more favorable to themselves are real cheaters. I'd like my job a lot more if it paid a million bucks a year but you don't see me crying to the boss about how it's unfair that someone else gets that and I don't, and that because of this they have ruined my career.
The forum isn't here for you to try and generate sympathy for your lack of whatever you're lacking. So don't try to hijack it so you can turn it into group therapy so you can have some self-esteem.
ps.
I've decided to double the number of your bases that we'll be taking. And while you're on the forum crying about it we'll quadruple our consumption of your bases.
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L...o...l, I would expect nothing else from a vtard but to post this utter nonsense when they are the prime example of the skilless 30-man horde that thinks that what they do is "winning"
However, I don't mind hordes as they typically comprise 3-5 kills....or more depending on squad.
Hmm, your squad is very good, full of excellent players, but I must say I've been gangraped by tg for 3-4 days now. Yesterday was the only day I had any interaction with tg that was close to even #s, <S> unclebone and redbull for that, although what they didn't have in #s they had in alt. :D I think Dodger and I had some good fun with them though.
With that said, the only thing more lame than a 30-man skilless horde is a 40-man skilled horde :aok
Just saying
JUGgler
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Hmm, your squad is very good, full of excellent players, but I must say I've been gangraped by tg for 3-4 days now. Yesterday was the only day I had any interaction with tg that was close to even #s, <S> unclebone and redbull for that, although what they didn't have in #s they had in alt. :D I think Dodger and I had some good fun with them though.
With that said, the only thing more lame than a 30-man skilless horde is a 40-man skilled horde :aok
Just saying
JUGgler
Hmm, your squad is very good, full of excellent players, but I must say I've been ALT-RAPED and 200-BASHED by AoM for weeks now.
With that said, the only thing more lame than a 30-man skilless horde is a skilled pilot whining and making fictional excuses on 200 for 30 minutes after being killed. :devil
Just saying.
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I would have wrote a good response but my phone rang midway through.
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Rob its easier to attack a base then defend it, if it was harder then the hordes wouldnt roll bases now would they.
A handfull of defenders can ruin a horde's day. If you don't have overwhelming numbers, suprize, or lack of resistance you won't get the job done. You can't dogfight, de-ack and kill town all at the same time fighting on even terms.
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There is no problem hording. The problem is, there are typically 3 hordes... and those 3 hordes do their best to NEVER get anywhere near each other.
HTC could fix this problem... they won't. To many "path of least resistance" types payin the bills.
Tumor
If you have a solution to "fix this problem," lets hear it. I don't see an obvious solution, so I'm very curious.
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A handfull of defenders can ruin a horde's day. If you don't have overwhelming numbers, suprize, or lack of resistance you won't get the job done. You can't dogfight, de-ack and kill town all at the same time fighting on even terms.
This is all to true!
So raise the radar minimum alt and make the requirements to take a base less, thereby allowing smaller (more motivated, high risk takers) to try and do it in smaller groups, with suprise or with out.
THEN, make the base and town "dead" for a period of time "but suppliable" so the capturers will have to "modestly" defend and or resupply it to actually own it!
These 2 ideas combined will encourage many folks to capture towns in smaller groups "as was the case before the radar alt change" in other words "less hording" and require them to defend thereby creating a sense of urgency and deperation that will culminate in "cartoon heroic" battles for all, in other words " more fighting"!
I see it as a WIN WIN!
JUGgler
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Huh... I actually think that could be a good way to go about it JUGgler...
It's the opposite approach to what has been tried, that's for sure, which is probably a good thing.
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The issue is the hordes like being hordes. Giving the option to split into smaller groups isn't going to do it. It's nice with the option there, bit they won't use it. They have the option now to hit 3 bases at once with the extra numbers they have and never do it.
They know they can't win the base unless they have the big numbers .
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This is all to true!
So raise the radar minimum alt and make the requirements to take a base less, thereby allowing smaller (more motivated, high risk takers) to try and do it in smaller groups, with suprise or with out.
THEN, make the base and town "dead" for a period of time "but suppliable" so the capturers will have to "modestly" defend and or resupply it to actually own it!
These 2 ideas combined will encourage many folks to capture towns in smaller groups "as was the case before the radar alt change" in other words "less hording" and require them to defend thereby creating a sense of urgency and deperation that will culminate in "cartoon heroic" battles for all, in other words " more fighting"!
I see it as a WIN WIN!
JUGgler
I can't believe it; but the above is :aok
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I can't believe it; but the above is :aok
You still can't sit with me! :P
JUGgler
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The issue is the hordes like being hordes. Giving the option to split into smaller groups isn't going to do it. It's nice with the option there, bit they won't use it. They have the option now to hit 3 bases at once with the extra numbers they have and never do it.
They know they can't win the base unless they have the big numbers.
Exactly. I'll admit it, I sometimes fly in the horde. But after an hour, I'm bored and in the mood for a fight, not an uneventfull commute from airfield to airfield. Air combat simmulator would imply combat, and combat is a two-way action. The problem is that the lemmings' goal in AH has become to remove combat from the equation.
To put it in layman's terms, people won't stop hording because they can't take bases without doing so. Source of the problem: defense against small groups is too easy, or effective use of small groups is too difficult. Changing either would aleviate said problem.
Since the one carrot we have (bragging rights) doesn't work, and people are intimdated by using the stick for some reason, what we need is either more carrots, or a slightly smaller stick.
Since a smaller stick would be (as the name implys) less effective, I propose we get some more carrots.
Impliment local ENY, which is tied to white-flag percentage and number of troops needed. Would have to be exponential in its effects, so as to be very gentle with small numbers, but tyrannicly cruel with massive 40+ hordes. Updates every 5 minutes to prevent manipulation through fighters bailing out. Base numbers would be 40% of town destroyed and 5 troops for a single person (a single person can't do both simultaneously, giving any defenders plenty of time to up), maybe the current numbers for, say, 6-10 people. Doubled for 20, Town percentage maxes out at 100% (duh), and troop requirment maxes out at 40 (this would be for big 35+ man hordes, where a couple less pilots in fighters is barely noticable)
This would both make small-numbers captures easier and large attacks more defendable.
Increase incentives for capturing a base quietly and intact. Maybe increase hanger down-time for newly captured bases to 25 minutes.
Town buildings stay down for an hour, auto ack stays down for 30 minutes for newly captured bases.
Once time limits are reached, the respective objects respawn in the standard time if destroyed again. This would mean defense of a heavily damaged base is nessecary, providing more incentive to do it quikly and quietly.
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"Local ENY" wouldn't function properly if the mission took off from 3 different bases.
This is the problem with implementing restrictions; players will find a way around them.
You want to work on the reward system. Reward players for not flying in a horde. Something like dar-bar based perk points; when it's an even battle, or close to even, you receive full perk points for a kill/bomb/capture. When it's extremely lopsided, you receive much less perks per kill/bomb/capture.
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local eny is for the sector the base is located in. If the enemy wants to take the base, then by the laws of physics and the game coad, they have to fly into the same sector as the base.
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local eny is for the sector the base is located in. If the enemy wants to take the base, then by the laws of physics and the game coad, they have to fly into the same sector as the base.
So... What, the 3 groups converge toward the target sector, and the game does what exactly?
Wiley.
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increases the percentage of town that needs to be destroyed, and raises the total troop count.
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Ah, so one never knows how many buildings it will take to get a base captured, or how many troops it will take, and the variations of these numbers will be beyond the control of all invoved.
This is a logical and well thought out idea which I am sure will be immensely popular with all people who enjoy the ground game.
Wiley.
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No, thats not true. You can make a reasonable guess based on the number of friendlys and, as I said, it would max out at 100% of town destroyed. If you can't kill all the buildings in town with 30 attackers, you clearly don't deserve to own the base.
But theres no reason (as far as gameplay) that you shouldn't face harder goals if you insist on using obcenly gratuitious force.
A big reason I didn't suggest local ENY affecting perk price and usable planes (based on the Plane's eny value) is so that the furballers can still do their thing.
Another option would be for local eny to just raise the troop numbers with no limit. If you want to make a 50 man horde, well then you should get to enjoy needing 40 sets of troops to take the base. Theres no reason you should be trying to avoid combat as much as possible (by trying to overwhelm the defenders as quickly and completly as possible so you don't have to do much real fighting, which is the entire reason behind a base take horde) in a combat flight simulator.
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No, thats not true. You can make a reasonable guess based on the number of friendlys and, as I said, it would max out at 100% of town destroyed. If you can't kill all the buildings in town with 30 attackers, you clearly don't deserve to own the base.
Another option would be for local eny to just raise the troop numbers with no limit. If you want to make a 50 man horde, well then you should get to enjoy needing 40 sets of troops to take the base. Theres no reason you should be trying to avoid combat as much as possible (by trying to overwhelm the defenders as quickly and completly as possible so you don't have to do much real fighting, which is the entire reason behind a base take horde) in a combat flight simulator.
And since the people planning the missions have complete control over which friendlies can be in that sector when they are attempting to take the base, these numbers will be easy to predict and manage.
This is one of the most rational, logical and practical ideas I've ever seen proposed for the game. I can't fathom why HTC hasn't implemented it yet.
Wiley.
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And since the people planning the missions have complete control over which friendlies can be in that sector when they are attempting to take the base, these numbers will be easy to predict and manage.
This is one of the most rational, logical and practical ideas I've ever seen proposed for the game. I can't fathom why HTC hasn't implemented it yet.
Wiley.
They certainly have control over their mission, or they should. If you roll a mission with 20 people and another 20 show up you either use them and for fill the requirements for the larger group, or you ignore the extra players, pass by the first target and hit a new one in the next sector. Adapt.
The "missions" run today have no need to adapt, they just flatten everything and move on. A "commander" should have to think on his feet, adapt the plan to something workable. Not enough people in the mission for a capture due to defense, split the force and turn it into a porking run hitting 3 bases. Regroup and hit one base on the second trip, but the defenders may be defending the wrong one. So much more can be done in this game. It's a shame that todays players are so one dimensional that they can't see the opportunities for others types of missions. They are so tied up in having to succeed in grabbing the base that nothing else is allowed. So they bring 30-40 guys to make SURE.
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Yes, because we all know that somebody screaming over country channel "HEY, EVERYBODY IN SECTOR 16,5 CLEAR OUT. MISSION INBOUND!!!" is likely to work well :rolleyes:.
Besides the constant carping about how it could be potentially circumvented and made a bit less effective, or how its way overdoing it because you can't take exactly the number of aircraft thats allowable with 2 goons so you can game the game, maybe you could think "hey, this might actuall give us a little relief from the lemmings. Might not be perfect, but so what? God knows our current ENY system isn't"
Or perhaps you could stop the sarcastic comments about rationality and logic, and come up with some *cough* rational and logical reasons about why this would be A) impractical B) overbearing C)ineffective.
Just saying, for one whos main 'argument' against my suggestion is a supposed of logic or rationality, you have yet to provide an actual argument against it.
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The issue is the hordes like being hordes. Giving the option to split into smaller groups isn't going to do it. It's nice with the option there, bit they won't use it. They have the option now to hit 3 bases at once with the extra numbers they have and never do it.
They know they can't win the base unless they have the big numbers .
Fugi, you're pretty burned about hordes I understand but they are here to stay. I think the game is morphing into a "war type" strategy game. Whether anyone admits it or not, so lets go with it and alter some stuff to encourage smaller base capture attempts and defense of base captures. AH has invested much time and resources into the vehicle model <-- so this tells me everything I need to know on what direction the game is going. It is no longer just an "aircombat game" it is changing, and changing rapidly. Currently the hording is "mad crazy" very intense and frustrating to fight against it is not for the faint of heart, that is why there are soo many more horders than those who lock horns against it!
I actualy think there is a much simpler way to curb the hording, that is get rid of SYSTEM landed messages, but this will never happen cause I think without "name in lights" most would wonder on out of this game!
At the moment there are almost exclusively 2 kinds of fights
#1- join the horde, whether it is attacking bases or just "cherry festing" the edge of a base for whatever reason.
#2- fighting against these overwhelming odds.
The "hordes of today" are filled with good pilots so the days of old where 1 or 2 good sticks could launch and give the many a run for their money is long over. There is so much youth in the game now that the "xbox" mentality is taking over. Kill kill kill, shoot shoot shoot, very little appreciation for the "chess match" this game once was, and far fewer "old school" folks who enjoy the "chess match". Sad really but it is what it is! We can only hope to nudge it in a direction that makes us want to stay, not sure it will happen but I'm sure it can!
:salute
JUGgler
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DIdn't air warrior only allow a set number of planes to take off from any 1 field withing a given time?
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Yes, because we all know that somebody screaming over country channel "HEY, EVERYBODY IN SECTOR 16,5 CLEAR OUT. MISSION INBOUND!!!" is likely to work well :rolleyes:.
...Precisely, which is what your system would require. Thank you for making my point for me.
Your general is going to have no control over what is near the base he's trying to take, and additional aircraft in the area will raise the requirements to take the field. More planes come into the sector, suddenly he doesn't have enough troops now. Completely beyond his control, and through no fault of his own, the base take fails. I am sure, based on the pocket generals we see every night in the arena, that they will just smile, shrug it off, and try again at another base.
Now, which scenario is more likely?
A) The countries start working like well oiled machines, following a chain of command and making tactically brilliant harmonic attacks.
B) The hordes stay the same or even grow, and they bring enough troops to cover the cap every time?
Idle curiosity, if 30 planes attack a field and 20 of them die during the attack, will the requirement to take it be for 30 planes or 10? How do GVs factor into that equation? Over what time frame?
Besides the constant carping about how it could be potentially circumvented and made a bit less effective,
You misspelled 'completely ineffective'. In fact, your proposal would be likely to have the precise opposite effect to what you are desiring. You're talking about upping the requirements to take a base unless everybody does everything just according to plan. Any time base taking was made more difficult in the past, the hordes have only grown. Every single time. It doesn't matter that the size of the horde is what's making it more difficult, why will they not simply bring enough troops to cover the cap? You see mass troop runs all the time now, why would it be any different under your system?
or how its way overdoing it because you can't take exactly the number of aircraft thats allowable with 2 goons so you can game the game, maybe you could think "hey, this might actuall give us a little relief from the lemmings. Might not be perfect, but so what? God knows our current ENY system isn't"
Explain in detail what part of ENY is designed or even remotely intended to control hording?
Or perhaps you could stop the sarcastic comments about rationality and logic, and come up with some *cough* rational and logical reasons about why this would be A) impractical B) overbearing C)ineffective.
Although the idea is obviously silly, I'll play. I'm willing to accept that you actually can't see why it won't work.
A) The mission has no control over what flies into its sector. That alone means they're going to have to bring extra troops and ordnance to cover contingencies, which means they will need to bring more planes, which means they will need to bring more troops and ord, which means they will need to bring more planes... Are you seeing the issue yet?
B) By design, the system practically demands the pocket generals have everybody clear out of their way if they're going to make a run on a base. Attempting to support them if they are fighting a losing battle will actually hurt their cause.
C) Outlined above, but barely scratching the surface of the number of ways this could be gamed.
Wiley.
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DIdn't air warrior only allow a set number of planes to take off from any 1 field withing a given time?
yes and that only helped the attackers.
semp
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Thats the point. People can't control whos in the sector. Since the troop requierment might increase without warning, smaller would be better. Its entirely the mission leader's fault if he brings exactly the number of planes that his goons can support (as in 1 more person in the sector will kick up the troop requirement). He is responsibe for the failure to capture the base, and he is responsible for the waste of everyones time. He screwed up because instead of being smart with his resources, and timing, he got greedy and tried to use as much force as possible so he wouldn't have to do any real fighting.
30 planes up, 20 die (all simultaneously), then its counted as 30 for the first 5 minutes following their deaths, and then 10 after that. This would be to prevent all the fighters from bailing as soon as troops are about to enter the map room, and working the system for a capture. GV's have equal value as aircraft. The point is to reward minimal use of assets. If theres a GV fight right next to the base you want..... well tough **** jack, go find another base to take. Theres about 20 others scattered along the front all just as good as that one.
If it were less harsh, yes, that would be true. But if its harsh enough that 30 man raids become no more effective (which is not to say less effective) than 15 man raids, and 40+ man raids are damn near impossible, then people will have no incentive to fly in the 30 man raids.
If A = B, and C doesn't work, then why would you insist on picking B every time?
ENY isn't to limit hording, its to provide some sembalance of a fair fight when the numbers get way out of whack. I was simply using ENY of an example of something that, while kind of effective under certian circumstances, works less well than could have been hoped for.
A) thats the point. If using a few works, using more doesn't work any better, and using a lot doesn't work as well..... then you would have to be the biggest idiot in the history of AH to keep trying to use more and more people. Yes, it will be annoying for the horders the first week or so, but once they realize they can't put out the fire by throwing more lemmings on it, then things will start to improve.
B) no, because nothing will work if you insist on using huge 30-40 person raids. More people won't work. More managment won't work, less managment won't work. The only thing that will work is scaling the attack back to a reasonable level. You want 20 person raids? Fine. Thats not impossible to defend against if you're good. But 35 is like going after a fly with a jackhammer.
C) see above, the point is to make big raids equally or less effective than small raids. No benefit to 30 people flying together, then they'll stop.
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Thats the point. People can't control whos in the sector. Since the troop requierment might increase without warning, smaller would be better. Its entirely the mission leader's fault if he brings exactly the number of planes that his goons can support (as in 1 more person in the sector will kick up the troop requirement). He is responsibe for the failure to capture the base, and he is responsible for the waste of everyones time. He screwed up because instead of being smart with his resources, and timing, he got greedy and tried to use as much force as possible so he wouldn't have to do any real fighting.
Assuming the leader buys into your system and brings several less than will boost the cap, when 5 or 10 or 11 or however many friendlies it takes happen by doing something else and mess up his situation, it will sting less. Got it.
30 planes up, 20 die (all simultaneously), then its counted as 30 for the first 5 minutes following their deaths, and then 10 after that. This would be to prevent all the fighters from bailing as soon as troops are about to enter the map room, and working the system for a capture. GV's have equal value as aircraft. The point is to reward minimal use of assets. If theres a GV fight right next to the base you want..... well tough **** jack, go find another base to take. Theres about 20 others scattered along the front all just as good as that one.
Right. They will bail 5 minutes before they plan to release the troops, leaving a skeleton crew at CAP alt in case the enemy gets ideas. Or, 40 of the 50 they brought will continue to the next base, leaving a skeleton crew at the previous base to mop up. Another question occurs to me. What happens if the requirement for troops is 15, 11 troops get into the maproom, and the timer runs out on a bunch of planes that have left the area/died to push it down to requiring 10 for the take?
If it were less harsh, yes, that would be true. But if its harsh enough that 30 man raids become no more effective (which is not to say less effective) than 15 man raids,
...So 30 planes isn't a horde? I'll... just leave that comment right here. That statement alone completely invalidates anything else you might say, no matter how many italics you use.
and 40+ man raids are damn near impossible, then people will have no incentive to fly in the 30 man raids.
If A = B, and C doesn't work, then why would you insist on picking B every time?
Yes, because people always approach the game in terms of 'where can I be the most effective?' You act like people log into the game and uniformly sit down and plan among themselves how big the horde is going to be today, and where it's going. People log in, see a bardar, and head toward it. Under your system, if you don't bring the maximum number of people, the number of troops that are required to take the town will be random, and the number of buildings needed to be down will also be random. Alternately, they can bring in a horde they know will get the job done, and enough troops to satisfy the maximum requirement.
Based on previous behavior, which is more likely?
ENY isn't to limit hording, its to provide some sembalance of a fair fight when the numbers get way out of whack. I was simply using ENY of an example of something that, while kind of effective under certian circumstances, works less well than could have been hoped for.
"hey, this might actuall give us a little relief from the lemmings. Might not be perfect, but so what? God knows our current ENY system isn't"
Reads to me like you're saying ENY is supposed to be saving us from the hordes, but if you say so...
A) thats the point. If using a few works, using more doesn't work any better, and using a lot doesn't work as well..... then you would have to be the biggest idiot in the history of AH to keep trying to use more and more people. Yes, it will be annoying for the horders the first week or so, but once they realize they can't put out the fire by throwing more lemmings on it, then things will start to improve.
Based on what? There will be fewer people in the game?
B) no, because nothing will work if you insist on using huge 30-40 person raids. More people won't work.
Why? What will prevent them from bringing enough goons?
C) see above, the point is to make big raids equally or less effective than small raids. No benefit to 30 people flying together, then they'll stop.
If they're equally effective, they'll still be there. If 30 works pretty much as well as 15, 30 will be what will come. If 40 has a higher troop requirement, why will they not bring 50 with more troops?
Wiley.
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Been noticing talk about hordes is up lately, and hordes have always been one of my pet peves. And so I ask you: why?
Why do you fly in hordes? What benefit does it get you?
If you're after the war win perks, then you should know that the defenders get more perks from killing you guys than you do from the war win. Hordes are about the worst way to earn perks in the game.
If you're out for a fight..... why does it have to be a massive 30v30? a 10v10 is just as fun, and less harmfull to the health of the overall gameplay.
If you're out to capture bases and win the map as easily as possible, you can do that offline for free.
If you're out to stir up anger, and piss people off...... well in that case you're a sadist, and I wish you an unpleasant life.
Just trying to understand the reasoning from the horders perspective. From my perspective, there is no benefit to flying in a horde if you want to actually play the game.
I may be speaking only for myself when I say that hording keeps mediocre to below average players ALIVE longer. Lets say I go up by myself and I run into a small pack of bogeys. 3 vs 1 and my chances are slim to none (if i stick around to fight). On the other hand, lets say its 10 vs 10 or 10 vs 20 or 20 vs 10..... Im not the only target to shoot at. With this game being as it is, success is the only way to have fun on a consistent basis. Dying every 10 minutes is no longer fun for me and therefore i'd rather take my chances in a furball with friendlies then a furball without friendlies.
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I may be speaking only for myself when I say that hording keeps mediocre to below average players ALIVE longer. Lets say I go up by myself and I run into a small pack of bogeys. 3 vs 1 and my chances are slim to none (if i stick around to fight). On the other hand, lets say its 10 vs 10 or 10 vs 20 or 20 vs 10..... Im not the only target to shoot at. With this game being as it is, success is the only way to have fun on a consistent basis. Dying every 10 minutes is no longer fun for me and therefore i'd rather take my chances in a furball with friendlies then a furball without friendlies.
if that's the only way to have fun, your missing out on a whole lot of the game, just saying.
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With this game being as it is, success is the only way to have fun on a consistent basis.
I die alot and have fun. Success is what you make it out to be. To me having fun is success.
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if that's the only way to have fun, your missing out on a whole lot of the game, just saying.
Flying in cooperation with LOTS of other players is one of the biggest highlights of this game.
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I die alot and have fun. Success is what you make it out to be. To me having fun is success.
Like, no wai!? :x
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I die alot and have fun. Success is what you make it out to be. To me having fun is success.
Agreed. Good lord, if getting kills or staying alive were the key to having fun here, I'd have moved on many years ago.
- oldman
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One way to initiate the begining of getting this new generation out of the hoard and finding fun in manoEmano fighting is to give them a simple 3 step process to follow that will ensure their chances of survival against the general population goes up. Not quite an aimbot but, tell them three actions they can repeatabely do that will increase their offensive capabailitys past 50/50 instead of making them your score fodder. As much as you are tired of thier hoards they are tired of being 10 second fodder to the MA.
When I first started this game shane showed me two simple things in the DA. By no means was I ready to take on the DA monsters becasue of it. But, my ability to kill my peers went through the roof and my MA experience was that much more fun. Two simple things shown to me without having to pay long boring hours in the DA being stomped on made a great difference. Now days you won't get them to even show up in the TA. You are going to have to tell them here in the forum in simple 1-2-3 english. Not hidden behind Shawisms or ACM lingo.
The old guard wants to protect their image of this game in the old fashioned school of hard knocks and not give anything away unless it's earned with a busted EGO. The new generation has been given trophys for simply showing up since grade school. Step on their EGO and they either find another game to support with their pocket book or they get even in any way they can that PO's you personaly. Now we have the highly effective hoards and this conversation.
Being a hoard and POing you guys delivers their nightly fun fix. Games are about emotional self reward. You are still making suggestions for how to alter game play so they are punished for having their fun without offering them anything for the amount of increased EGO stomping your suggestions will require they accept. Telling them to grow a pair as the ultimate solution will simply get you a new kind of hoard in repsonse to PO you every night.
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a good idea is to make bases just capturable with troops.. no ack, no killing town, just 10 troops in maproom. maybe only 1 troop in maproom.. just make it so ridiculously easy to prove it's nonsense to start with, and all they're fighting against is arena settings.
once the hordelets realize they dont need a horde to take a base, they will most likely stop, or get bored (as most people do eventually with the real estate game anyway)
I'm sure the generals would enjoy coordinating their goon hordes to avoid the other generals goon hordes, and fully enjoy rolling base after base from each other for awhile.. but I'd assume sooner or later they will want to do _something_ other than just take another base..
maybe they might actually want to have some combat!!
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Flying in cooperation with LOTS of other players is one of the biggest highlights of this game for me.
Fixed. Not everyone likes to hold hands in this game.
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Fixed. Not everyone likes to hold hands in this game.
Oh boy, there's an ego.
Why play a massively multilayer online combat flight simulator if you don't want to fly with and against a lot of other people?
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Agreed. Good lord, if getting kills or staying alive were the key to having fun here, I'd have moved on many years ago.
- oldman
considering you only get a kill every few years... :noid
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When I first started this game shane showed me two simple things in the DA. By no means was I ready to take on the DA monsters becasue of it. But, my ability to kill my peers went through the roof and my MA experience was that much more fun. Two simple things shown to me without having to pay long boring hours in the DA being stomped on made a great difference.
Lessee if I can recall what they might have been (and probably something I've passed along to others)... one might have been how to use the vertical and roll to cut inside, an immel/double (as opposed to a more or less flat turning by your avg MA pie-let). Second might have been about the lead turn on the merge... those are the two most common tips I can remember - it's been a while. :old:
In any case... pass 'em along, lol. :aok
I've also shared my viewsets (.hps) with quite a few people. I notice HTC has gotten better with default views.
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moin
i cant get the point with the hord problem.
i like fliing with my squad.... is it a hord?
i like Aces High becouse we all can fly with 600 people sometimes. no other combatfight sim can over that.
i like devending against a hord its always a chalenge and it feels so good if you have susces again a biger group.
if you dont like hords, fly agains tham and beat them were ever you can, thats old Luftwaffen styl and fun, try it ;)
i will never forget a flight with my wingman again a b17 group about 200 formations.... was it a hord? i m sure but it was one of the bigest fun. here in the game.
please stop all that complaining about the hords, most hords are not as big as the alied attacking squads over germany, so you can say its realistic if a hord attack a fild.
cu christian
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Oh boy, there's an ego.
Why play a massively multilayer online combat flight simulator if you don't want to fly with and against a lot of other people?
Ego? Where on earth did you come up with that? I am a mediocre pilot and have no illusions about having mad skillz. I like flying against other people, just not a lot of them at once. I prefer to fight my own battles and sometimes fight with friendlies, just not coordinate with them.
You like to fly with a lot of people but not everyone else does. That is all I said and it was perfectly clear.
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Right. They will bail 5 minutes before they plan to release the troops, leaving a skeleton crew at CAP alt in case the enemy gets ideas. Or, 40 of the 50 they brought will continue to the next base, leaving a skeleton crew at the previous base to mop up. Another question occurs to me. What happens if the requirement for troops is 15, 11 troops get into the maproom, and the timer runs out on a bunch of planes that have left the area/died to push it down to requiring 10 for the take?
And I (and most skilled pilots as well) can break through a skeleton crew CAPing. A single tater and I just killed somewhere between 3 and 15 troops. Either way, you still can't take the base.
If the timer runs out, a single additional troop would be required. The point is that it either pushes the attackers to use smaller numbers, or delays their horde enough that defenders can up from another base, and come kill troops. Its not supposed to be easy on the hordes.
...So 30 planes isn't a horde? I'll... just leave that comment right here. That statement alone completely invalidates anything else you might say, no matter how many italics you use.
No, 30 is still a horde, but a 30 man horde is also a raid, or an attack, or a mission. Horde isn't a precise term, which is why I didn't use it in that instance.
Yes, because people always approach the game in terms of 'where can I be the most effective?' You act like people log into the game and uniformly sit down and plan among themselves how big the horde is going to be today, and where it's going. People log in, see a bardar, and head toward it. Under your system, if you don't bring the maximum number of people, the number of troops that are required to take the town will be random, and the number of buildings needed to be down will also be random. Alternately, they can bring in a horde they know will get the job done, and enough troops to satisfy the maximum requirement.
no, but they usually tend to avoid areas where they are ineffective. Each individual isn't very effective, because they're competing against 30 others. Since smaller groups would be just as effective as a horde, and increasing the size of the horde makes the horde ineffective, the hope is that instead of sticking around to do nothing but take in the view, people will be drawn to the areas where they can do something.
Based on what? There will be fewer people in the game?
based on the fact that joining the horde makes the horde as a whole less effective. You yourself are already ineffective as an individual in the horde, so that leaves nothing for the individual who wants to help fly around a capped base.
Why? What will prevent them from bringing enough goons?
because after a bit, the goons will increase the troop requirement by more than the number of troops they cary.
If they're equally effective, they'll still be there. If 30 works pretty much as well as 15, 30 will be what will come. If 40 has a higher troop requirement, why will they not bring 50 with more troops?
Maybe. I personally don't think so (at least not after a while), but you may be right. But even if you ARE right, then at least we wouldn't have constant one-sided fights.
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What prevents the enemy from upping to defend against the "hoard" :headscratch:
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And I (and most skilled pilots as well) can break through a skeleton crew CAPing. A single tater and I just killed somewhere between 3 and 15 troops. Either way, you still can't take the base.
...Through the 40 planes that moved on. Ok.
If the timer runs out, a single additional troop would be required. The point is that it either pushes the attackers to use smaller numbers, or delays their horde enough that defenders can up from another base, and come kill troops. Its not supposed to be easy on the hordes.
Again we're back to the number of troops it requires to take the base being effectively random.
No, 30 is still a horde, but a 30 man horde is also a raid, or an attack, or a mission. Horde isn't a precise term, which is why I didn't use it in that instance.
What IS the magic number of attackers that makes it fun for all?
no, but they usually tend to avoid areas where they are ineffective.
...You say this, and then you go on immediately to say
Each individual isn't very effective, because they're competing against 30 others.
Which is how it is now in a horde.
If people tended to avoid areas where they are ineffective, hordes wouldn't exist now. People in a horde at present are just along to look at the scenery/get in a vulch if their timing is right because they're competing with 30 others.
Obviously the first statement is wrong, and that's kind of what your plan hinges on, so... I'm kind of having trouble seeing how it would work with that first statement being clearly false.
because after a bit, the goons will increase the troop requirement by more than the number of troops they cary.
Again, what is the number of attackers that makes everything swell?
Maybe. I personally don't think so (at least not after a while), but you may be right. But even if you ARE right, then at least we wouldn't have constant one-sided fights.
Wait, what? Ok, until I hear different, let's assume 30 is your magic number since we've already mentioned it. Hordes of 20 to 30 are routine in the arena now, and roll unopposed and are whined about. That many planes already creates many one sided fights.
Wiley.
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What prevents the enemy from upping to defend against the "hoard" :headscratch:
Bishop did it last night, was fun.
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What prevents the enemy from upping to defend against the "hoard" :headscratch:
Organization. It is very rare that a squad, or another horde ups to defend against an in coming horde. Many times its just 4 or 5 people trying to slow the horde. it gets as boring as flying with the horde.
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Organization. It is very rare that a squad, or another horde ups to defend against an in coming horde. Many times its just 4 or 5 people trying to slow the horde. it gets as boring as flying with the horde.
That is one thing that just confuses the heck out of me. I've seen people call out a large bardar developing a sector or two away from a field, headed toward it. Multiple people call out on country 'large bardar inbound 199' or whatever. 5, 10, 15 minutes before they even enter the dar ring people have called it out, and then once the giant blob of enemy appears, suddenly the channel comes alive with 'Where did this horde come from?!' At that point, people launch and proceed to get frustrated with being vulched and move somewhere else.
It makes perfect sense that people aren't sitting in tower waiting for something like that to happen so they can up to defend. People are probably in flight when the call goes out. I can see why people may not be able to up there to defend, but to be surprised when it gets there? That makes no sense to me.
Perhaps that's one of the core issues to why there's rarely defense. Most people log in and don't sit around for more than a couple minutes to find a fight. They find one and up, and reup pretty much as quickly as possible. When a call goes out that a base is coming under attack, it's not like half the people on your country are going to auger immediately to get there to climb and form an effective defense, they're doing something else.
Wiley.
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That is one thing that just confuses the heck out of me. I've seen people call out a large bardar developing a sector or two away from a field, headed toward it. Multiple people call out on country 'large bardar inbound 199' or whatever. 5, 10, 15 minutes before they even enter the dar ring people have called it out, and then once the giant blob of enemy appears, suddenly the channel comes alive with 'Where did this horde come from?!' At that point, people launch and proceed to get frustrated with being vulched and move somewhere else.
It makes perfect sense that people aren't sitting in tower waiting for something like that to happen so they can up to defend. People are probably in flight when the call goes out. I can see why people may not be able to up there to defend, but to be surprised when it gets there? That makes no sense to me.
Perhaps that's one of the core issues to why there's rarely defense. Most people log in and don't sit around for more than a couple minutes to find a fight. They find one and up, and reup pretty much as quickly as possible. When a call goes out that a base is coming under attack, it's not like half the people on your country are going to auger immediately to get there to climb and form an effective defense, they're doing something else.
Wiley.
I agree wiley, and with the idea I've proposed there would be "time" for folks to land, join a counter attack mission etc etc.
I think most folks pay attention to their score (this is not bad) but for me it explanes why most will not just "bail" to go somewhere else and get gangraped (defend against horde mission). But I think most or many would land and try to be part of a counter attack, whether it be in a mission or just tagging along to try and retake a base IF it was possible without having to re-drop town and ack etc etc.
JUGgler
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I agree wiley, and with the idea I've proposed there would be "time" for folks to land, join a counter attack mission etc etc.
I think most folks pay attention to their score (this is not bad) but for me it explanes why most will not just "bail" to go somewhere else and get gangraped (defend against horde mission). But I think most or many would land and try to be part of a counter attack, whether it be in a mission or just tagging along to try and retake a base IF it was possible without having to re-drop town and ack etc etc.
JUGgler
Of the anti-steamrolling proposals, I can find the least fault with yours. I'd be curious to see how it would work, I'm just not sure it would catch on. Kind of like how tank town never left the game but it never gets used now because nobody uses it, you know?
I don't think it's necessarily watching score. For myself, I just feel it's terribly cheesy to intentionally auger a perfectly good plane so you can go do something else. Regardless of what you're doing at the time, I just feel it's no different from bomb and bailing, or bombing and augering or getting shot down by ack intentionally to get back to target faster. It's not good for the game IMO and not something I'd want to see more of.
Wiley.
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...Through the 40 planes that moved on. Ok.
so the force thats capping is actually the 40 planes that allegedly moved on? You're jumping around a bit, might want to get your story strait.
Again we're back to the number of troops it requires to take the base being effectively random.
random to a certian degree, yes. But its not like you can only say "well, its somewhere between 1 and 200 troops needed". You can get a rough estimate based on the numbers you have. And past that..... if it works, no better reason than that to include it.
What IS the magic number of attackers that makes it fun for all?
IDK, you tell me what the magic number is when a raid transforms into a horde.
Theres rarely an exact answer for those types of questions. It stops being fun when one side has a very large advantage over the other, and effective resistance becomes impossible.
...You say this, and then you go on immediately to say
Which is how it is now in a horde.
If people tended to avoid areas where they are ineffective, hordes wouldn't exist now. People in a horde at present are just along to look at the scenery/get in a vulch if their timing is right because they're competing with 30 others.
Obviously the first statement is wrong, and that's kind of what your plan hinges on, so... I'm kind of having trouble seeing how it would work with that first statement being clearly false.
They can be effective as individuals or as a group. Nobody is effective as an individual in a horde regardless of the system. My idea would limit the effetivness of the group, so that they can be either
A) ineffective as individuas but all together be just as effective as a smaller group of 15
B) be effective as individuals AND be effective as a group.
Again, what is the number of attackers that makes everything swell?
again, no hard set number, as you should be well aware of if you ever played the game. 20 seems to be about the point where the fun starts to drop off.
Wait, what? Ok, until I hear different, let's assume 30 is your magic number since we've already mentioned it. Hordes of 20 to 30 are routine in the arena now, and roll unopposed and are whined about. That many planes already creates many one sided fights.
*facepalm*
1) horders gain air superiority
2) horders fail to take base, and grow frustrated. Defenders laugh at them.
3) attackers get low-fuel and have to egress
4) defenders come back and punch the low-fuel twit-tards in their collective face.
5) I laugh my arse off as I rack up kills on the twits that lack the sense to RTB.
Defenders with a chance to defend = pretty fair fight
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so the force thats capping is actually the 40 planes that allegedly moved on? You're jumping around a bit, might want to get your story strait.
You do understand that they would have to fly from the base they just flattened to the next base over, right? They're flying away from it, and toward the base you probably just upped from. You do realize you'll have to go through them to get there, right?
IDK, you tell me what the magic number is when a raid transforms into a horde.
This isn't my idea. You say this will cure all the hording, yet you can't define what a horde is. Here's a hint. You can't tell a computer program to 'limit it when there are too many of them'. You need to define what "too many" is.
Theres rarely an exact answer for those types of questions. It stops being fun when one side has a very large advantage over the other, and effective resistance becomes impossible.
In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about, but boy you want them to do something about those evil hordes. Gotcha.
They can be effective as individuals or as a group. Nobody is effective as an individual in a horde regardless of the system. My idea would limit the effetivness of the group, so that they can be either
A) ineffective as individuas but all together be just as effective as a smaller group of 15
B) be effective as individuals AND be effective as a group.
again, no hard set number, as you should be well aware of if you ever played the game. 20 seems to be about the point where the fun starts to drop off.
Well, which is it? 'No hard set number' or 20? If 20 is the magic number, you could've said that in the first place. So above 20 it gets prohibitively hard?
A force of 20 hits a base. 10 guys that don't suck, but don't care about dying particularly up to defend. They can fend that off in their sleep. The map stagnates utterly.
*facepalm*
1) horders gain air superiority
2) horders fail to take base, and grow frustrated. Defenders laugh at them.
3) attackers get low-fuel and have to egress
4) defenders come back and punch the low-fuel twit-tards in their collective face.
5) I laugh my arse off as I rack up kills on the twits that lack the sense to RTB.
Defenders with a chance to defend = pretty fair fight
Yes, yes. Through means you can't define, you always get a fair fight and everything is happy. Hooray.
There is nothing here beyond wishful thinking. Pretty much what I expected from zone number control. Just saying 'limit the number of attackers so they can't horde!' sounds swell, but actually defining how it would work brings us around to the reason why it has not been implemented. :aok
Wiley.
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You do understand that they would have to fly from the base they just flattened to the next base over, right? They're flying away from it, and toward the base you probably just upped from. You do realize you'll have to go through them to get there, right?
you do realize that AH doesn't have a linear world, right?
This isn't my idea. You say this will cure all the hording, yet you can't define what a horde is. Here's a hint. You can't tell a computer program to 'limit it when there are too many of them'. You need to define what "too many" is.
no, but you're asking for something that can't be given. General ranges can be given, but no specific number. If you can't understand the point I was making with that, then don't bother responding to it.
In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about, but boy you want them to do something about those evil hordes. Gotcha.
no, 20 isn't nessicarily a horde. If theres clearly defined groups, like 10 stukas, with a close escort of 109's, then I wouldn't call that a horde. Theres a fine line between hordes and teamwork. You can't just define a horde by a number and expect it to be even remotely free of exceptions and shady areas. Case by case, I could point out the hordes easily enough.
Well, which is it? 'No hard set number' or 20? If 20 is the magic number, you could've said that in the first place. So above 20 it gets prohibitively hard?
'about 20' isn't a hard set number, genius. And thats just a very rough average. At times I've seen groups of 10 that I would call a horde, and then I've seen groups of 25 that I wouldn't.
A force of 20 hits a base. 10 guys that don't suck, but don't care about dying particularly up to defend. They can fend that off in their sleep. The map stagnates utterly.
after we get rid of the hordeing problem, then we'll work on how to get the maps moving without the hordes. You don't seem to realize that AH doesn't have to be a 'One or the other' situation.
Yes, yes. Through means you can't define, you always get a fair fight and everything is happy. Hooray.
wow you're incredibly dense at times. Couldn't you call a horde a large group that is attempting to either overpower more skilled opponents, or swamp a larger group of less skilled defenders with numbers? The entire purpose of a horde is to make the fight as unfair as possible so you can win while still doing as little as possible.
There is nothing here but pesmistic worrying over something that will be leave the game relatively unchanged at worst, and could greatly releave the hording problem at best. "Nothing can be done about it, so just let it happen" may sound like a good plan untill you actuall examine the details, and see that its a complete fallacy :aok.
Jager
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Why are you so concerned with the way other people choose to play? You're not a manager, you're not an assistant manager so what gives??? OCD maybe?
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after we get rid of the hordeing problem,
Which you can't define...
then we'll work on how to get the maps moving without the hordes. You don't seem to realize that AH doesn't have to be a 'One or the other' situation.
There is nothing here. Your entire 'idea' is 'hordes are bad'. Wow. Profound.
wow you're incredibly dense at times. Couldn't you call a horde a large group that is attempting to either overpower more skilled opponents, or swamp a larger group of less skilled defenders with numbers? The entire purpose of a horde is to make the fight as unfair as possible so you can win while still doing as little as possible.
Yep. You can call a horde a lot of things. You haven't explained how your 'zone ENY' will even be implemented, much less how it would work to stop hording, or even what a 'horde' is. You have no idea. You are whining and throwing around buzzwords trying to sound like it is a simple thing to fix and you've got the answer, even though you can't explain what it is you're trying to fix.
There is nothing here but pesmistic worrying over something that will be leave the game relatively unchanged at worst, and could greatly releave the hording problem at best.
...I'm sorry, you haven't explained what you're even trying to relieve.
"Nothing can be done about it, so just let it happen" may sound like a good plan untill you actuall examine the details, and see that its a complete fallacy :aok.
Jager
You are actually saying 'examine the details'? Really? Here, let me type this slowly so it might sink in... You have not provided any details to examine.
Wiley.
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Tank-Ace, Wiley is right, unless you have concrete numbers, it's going to be impossible to program.
One thing I don't quite understand, and can never seem to get a satisfying answer to, is why do the people who don't care if the war is won or lost, care about losing bases to the hordes? In reality, all hordes do is change the map faster, and that shouldn't bother many people. Let the hordes fight the hordes, and the rest can go fight elsewhere as they please...
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Tank-Ace, Wiley is right, unless you have concrete numbers, it's going to be impossible to program.
One thing I don't quite understand, and can never seem to get a satisfying answer to, is why do the people who don't care if the war is won or lost, care about losing bases to the hordes? In reality, all hordes do is change the map faster, and that shouldn't bother many people. Let the hordes fight the hordes, and the rest can go fight elsewhere as they please...
To me, the action of capturing a base or defending a base are the two most likely places that you will have combat. If the combat is limited to fighting for or against the horde it takes the fun out of it as you are either being ganged, or spend your time picking lemmings.
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To me, the action of capturing a base or defending a base are the two most likely places that you will have combat. If the combat is limited to fighting for or against the horde it takes the fun out of it as you are either being ganged, or spend your time picking lemmings.
Sure, but there is always more than one spot to fight. If for whatever reason there isn't, grab a plane head to an enemy base and poke 'em with a stick until someone ups. I don't know that I've ever had a hard time finding another fight, even when there is a horde attacking another base.
I've seen counter-attacks often dissolve a horde rather quickly as well, and those counter-attacks are a blast. Our squad used to do those from time to time; up a few heavy fighters, climb up, drop the horde's ord or hangers, and battle the horde as they take off. They quickly forget what they were doing and focus on you at their own base... :devil Soon, the tides start turning (thanks to the distraction you created) and a huge furball in between the bases ensues as the battle front starts shifting, and that right there is where I think I have the most fun. Those huge furballs are awesome.
I guess basically what's being asked for, is an always-even or close-to-even battle, which in a large sandbox environment like AH, is not always going to happen without potentially crippling and/or vague restrictions. It's kind of something that there isn't a solution to on a programming level without adverse effects on gameplay, and I think that's the biggest reason we haven't seen HTC implement something already.
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I'm also one of the guys that really likes it when two large forces clash. About even second-best for me is either going into a horde with alt and E in something fast or finding a decent 1v1. I find sometimes the 1v1 happens on the way to the horde.
Maybe I haven't reached the point in my development where 'picking lemmings' loses its fun, but it still makes me smile every time. Maybe I'm just a simple creature.
I believe I've finally wrapped my head somewhat around guys like Fugi's frustration, in that they get more enjoyment out of 1v1s but also enjoy some unpredictability in the area as far as friendlies and bandits ebbing and flowing. Unfortunately, it's a hard thing to find on a consistent basis, you usually wind up either with friendlies helping you when you don't want it, or getting gangbanged.
When either of those things happen to me, I either take enjoyment out of trying to survive the gangbang and egress successfully, maybe dragging the enemy under inbound friendlies, or pushing on toward enemy territory with the friendlies that came along. I view it as side vs side first, and a happy circumstance that the bandit and I happened to get a couple minutes alone before the other people came along. Guys like Fugi seem to place more value on the 1v1 time, and the side vs side encroaching on that frustrates them.
It's a taste in play that's somewhat rare, Fugi is well documented in his belief it used to be much more common than it is now. I can't say, I haven't been around that long. I've been simming for ~6 years, and I wouldn't say when I started it was ever common, but I will agree it's less common now than it was when I started.
It's another problem that I think has no codable solution. My opinion on it is, the MA is a free for all, side based arena. "If it's red, it's dead" should always be what you expect from your enemies. What you do is your choice, whether to HO or not, whether to horde or not, whether to gang or not, etc. That is the nature of the arena.
To me, it seems the only way to get gameplay like Fugi desires is to get people together who are of like mind basically in their own arena. I've seen that attitude somewhat more prevalent in AvA, for example.
Btw, Fugi I'm not saying 'If you don't like it, go somewhere else, nyah.' I'm just saying I believe that is what it would take to solve your problem. Honestly I feel bad that guys like you can't find the gameplay you like as often as you'd like it. I just don't agree with trying to ice skate uphill to make the MA fit that playstyle.
Wiley.
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Wiley,
you were wondering earlyer if there are so many "horde inb" calls, why only a handful of players show up to defend.
You cant except everyone to bail out from his GV/bomber/jabo mission, or interrupt a turnfight just becouse there is a horde inbound to xy field, right?
Only those go there to defend who are just finishing their sortie, right? Also noone wanna up when the horde is right over the field, for obvious reasons.
You also mentioned a 3-4-5 minutes "window" til the horde arrives. Getting 5-6 people together isnt as a bad achievement then..
I hope it helps.
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Wiley,
you were wondering earlyer if there are so many "horde inb" calls, why only a handful of players show up to defend.
You cant except everyone to bail out from his GV/bomber/jabo mission, or interrupt a turnfight just becouse there is a horde inbound to xy field, right?
Only those go there to defend who are just finishing their sortie, right? Also noone wanna up when the horde is right over the field, for obvious reasons.
You also mentioned a 3-4-5 minutes "window" til the horde arrives. Getting 5-6 people together isnt as a bad achievement then..
I hope it helps.
Oh, it doesn't surprise me nobody ups to defend, as I said in that post, I think we're both on the same page why it happens. People are up to stuff. :)
I just was expressing a bit of confusion why people don't seem to watch the map, or notice the country channel call outs. They seem genuinely surprised when the bardar that I've watched march across 3 sectors over a period of 20 minutes arrives at its destination.
Maybe I'm unusually watching the map more than most, I don't know.
Wiley.
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Sure, but there is always more than one spot to fight. If for whatever reason there isn't, grab a plane head to an enemy base and poke 'em with a stick until someone ups. I don't know that I've ever had a hard time finding another fight, even when there is a horde attacking another base.
I've seen counter-attacks often dissolve a horde rather quickly as well, and those counter-attacks are a blast. Our squad used to do those from time to time; up a few heavy fighters, climb up, drop the horde's ord or hangers, and battle the horde as they take off. They quickly forget what they were doing and focus on you at their own base... :devil Soon, the tides start turning (thanks to the distraction you created) and a huge furball in between the bases ensues as the battle front starts shifting, and that right there is where I think I have the most fun. Those huge furballs are awesome.
Sadly, it seems that the mentality of most AH players is to whine endlessly rather than doing something pro-active such as you describe
An organised squad/wing of half decent pilots can easily combat the sort of 'horde of clueless dweebs' that is always being complained about. The thing is, despite the type of game that AH is, a very large proportion of the player base seems to be of the 'lone wolf' type :headscratch:
Since beginning to fly AH in Feb of 2011 I have always thought that there isn't enough squad action in the game - possibly due to established squads not wanting to take on and train new pilots? I don't know...but I really do think it's strange for what is after all, an MMOG where teamwork = success
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increases the percentage of town that needs to be destroyed, and raises the total troop count.
So what you're saying is the game needs bigger hordes?
Or do you imagine that making captures harder will somehow motivate people to bring fewer helpers to get it done?
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So what you're saying is the game needs bigger hordes?
Or do you imagine that making captures harder will somehow motivate people to bring fewer helpers to get it done?
I'm still toying with the idea, but either small groups will have the current numbers or reduced ones, and hordes will get brutally beaten with town down percentages and troop requirments. The goal would be to make about 30 people the realistic max that you can make a horde and still take a base. 30 would be EQULLY effective as 10 or 15 people, but if you go above the limit (30-35 or so) then you need more goons to capture, and each goon raises the troop requirment by more than 10 (so you can't go past 30-35 people, since you would have to ditch the fighter cover to take the base).
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Wiley, you like hordes fighting? Local ENY wouldn't affect the fighters available. No reason for furballers not to be able to get a big furball going. And even if you end up being right about the base taking hordes (the main target of this idea)..... well at least it puts the smaller groups on an even footing, so you can still make a med-small mission and have a reasonable chance at success.
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Tank, that sounds terribly complicated.
Numbers are too dynamic in this game. Think about how that can be gamed; as the troops are running, everyone would just bail/ditch/auger except for the number needed to capture with 10 troops.
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Thats why I talked about a delay in the ENY update. 5 minutes delay between bailing/death of pilot and ENY update, or ENY is updated only every 5 minutes.
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Thats why I talked about a delay in the ENY update. 5 minutes delay between bailing/death of pilot and ENY update, or ENY is updated only every 5 minutes.
So you start the horde, get a cap and down the base with the horde, the horde leaves the maximum behind and the goon/M3 waits for 5 minutes.
This is the problem with trying to control gameplay, you are endlessly going to have to keep adding parameters. Humans are VERY good at finding loopholes, particularly when we feel we are being restricted (ie. the Tor network vs censorship). You need to stop looking so much at how to control players; instead look for ways of rewarding a certain type of gameplay.
You have to make the players want to play a certain way.
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You have to make the players want to play a certain way.
That's the million dollar question. Little seems to motivate the people who enjoy the unopposed horde. They get few perks, they get few kills per person. The only motivating factor visible from the outside seems to be to take enough bases to win the war. Maybe the motivation is they feel pride because they think they are known and looked up to for taking bases and winning the war?
It seems to me an intractable problem from an 'add something to the gameplay mechanics' standpoint, because their motivation seems to me to exist outside of the game mechanics.
Wiley.
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<snip> for space....
To me, it seems the only way to get gameplay like Fugi desires is to get people together who are of like mind basically in their own arena. I've seen that attitude somewhat more prevalent in AvA, for example.
Btw, Fugi I'm not saying 'If you don't like it, go somewhere else, nyah.' I'm just saying I believe that is what it would take to solve your problem. Honestly I feel bad that guys like you can't find the gameplay you like as often as you'd like it. I just don't agree with trying to ice skate uphill to make the MA fit that playstyle.
Wiley.
Yes I like the 1 vs 1, but the reason I don't spend time in the DA and such is I like the side vs side just as much. I know I'll never be one of the "hot sticks", I just don't have the time for that. So with that being said, 5 and more against 1 gets old after a while. As for picking.... where is the challenge in that? So I look for fights where I have a chance. I like the challenge of a good fight, it makes the "winning" that much more fun. I look at the "war" the same way. If there is no challenge whats the point? Of course there is the other extreme as well. If the challenge is too high, there isn't much fun there either.
I argue against hordes because I see them as a waste. With all these people here there could be so much fun and challenge to be had, instead we have people being happy with mediocrity. Afraid to step out of that "comfort zone" and try to push the envelope. As I've said before, I could even live with the hordes if there was a way to defend against them. This is where HTC COULD do something to encourage defenders to want to defend.
Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I hope to see the days of squad vs squad battles crop up again and hammer at each other all night for the sake of one base. The days where combat is the order of the day, not roll another base.
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Yes I like the 1 vs 1, but the reason I don't spend time in the DA and such is I like the side vs side just as much. I know I'll never be one of the "hot sticks", I just don't have the time for that. So with that being said, 5 and more against 1 gets old after a while. As for picking.... where is the challenge in that? So I look for fights where I have a chance. I like the challenge of a good fight, it makes the "winning" that much more fun. I look at the "war" the same way. If there is no challenge whats the point? Of course there is the other extreme as well. If the challenge is too high, there isn't much fun there either.
I argue against hordes because I see them as a waste. With all these people here there could be so much fun and challenge to be had, instead we have people being happy with mediocrity. Afraid to step out of that "comfort zone" and try to push the envelope. As I've said before, I could even live with the hordes if there was a way to defend against them. This is where HTC COULD do something to encourage defenders to want to defend.
Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I hope to see the days of squad vs squad battles crop up again and hammer at each other all night for the sake of one base. The days where combat is the order of the day, not roll another base.
I agree much with this, I think this comfort zone allows newbies to grab a kill and survive longer then they would if they stepped out of this comfort box.
Then again I routinely prefer the hard method of facing the horde with an inferior plane for the challenge. I probably won't win a 1vs1 in the DA - because I find the Main Arena equally or even more challenging trying to defend yourself against numbers. However its helped me thrive in the Main arena and FSO events.
I wish the muppets or someone would bring back the 20vs20 duels over water again, those were some fun times - each side gets a mission and a certain ride, we all meet in the middle and have a huge furball.
Now a days 15x P51s that drop all the hangers then kill anyone who manages to up before the horde arrives, just really isn't fun..
If they bother to advertise it, it might be one thing - that and not killing all the hangers either.. Then again what used to be small squad NOE's now turned into giant raids..
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Thats actually pretty perceptive wiley. you and sector have convinced me, maybe limiting hording (at least alone) isn't the way to go.
But you are right, I think they draw their pleasure from sources outside of the game paramaters. That feeling of invulnerability people can sometimes draw by being part of a horde that sweeps all before them is something that can only be matched by being good enough to do the same on your own, and is something we can't coad into the game.
Personally, I play for the fights themselves. The results of the fight are meaningless for me in most instances. But I so rarely get to have a very good 1v1, one that makes your heart start pounding and gets the adrenaline flowing. IMO, thats about as real as it gets in a game; when the fight is so even, so perfectly matched, .... and so intense, you forget for that brief second that you're playing a game, and you're just glad to come away from it 'alive'.
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I personally have a bit of a different attitude about what makes it feel 'real' and what makes it fun.
I look at whatever fight I'm headed into as side vs side. When I'm headed toward the enemy, I'm assessing what the enemy appears to be doing, what the friendlies around me appear to be doing, how I think the two will interact, and what role I can play.
My goal most times is to attempt to push the enemy force around either by killing them, or secondarily moving them into a place where they are either easier to kill for others, or less effective to attack the friendlies coming behind me. Pushing them down if I know medium alt buffs are coming behind me, things of that nature.
The point is, when I'm able, I'm looking at the battle as a whole. Of course, when I start engaging a bandit or two, that's where my concentration is mostly focused, but I'm still trying to be aware of how many reds and greens are in the distance headed toward us and what that means to my current fight. Setting them up for the incoming friendly, avoiding them doing the same to me, possibly going for the incoming enemy goon, etc.
At any given moment, I'm using everything I currently have at my disposal to try to kill the red guys and get home. Sometimes that means picking, sometimes that means dragging, sometimes that means 1v1ing a guy. Sometimes that means getting the fast plane to break so the guys trying to run him down can catch up, or pushing him down so the guys with less alt have access to him, etc etc.
I personally avoid large groups of friendlies unless they're being met by a large group of enemies. That's where I find the most fun, but it's quite rare on a lot of nights, so I settle for finding an enemy crowd to work.
Tank-Ace: I was maybe a teeny bit abrupt with you when you brought up limiting the hordes programmatically. It's an idea I've seen thrown around in vague terms in the past, and nobody ever seems to be able to put together concrete terms to how it would work. IMO that's the biggest hurdle with that idea. It's something that's kind of been rubbing me wrong for a while, and you popped your head up and I kind of took it off. I still fundamentally disagree with the idea, but the browbeating might've been a bit much, and I apologize.
It sounds great when mentioned in broad terms, but when you actually start looking at implementing it, it produces a system that either is ineffective, or makes offense nearly impossible.
The two biggest flaws I see are:
1) Have you ever seen a Junior Admiral trying to be slick with a CV and sneak it up to a base without firing on it or upping any planes to give it away? Have you ever seen the amount of vitriol that gets spewed at the newb that goes to take off from the CV?
It would seem to me a system like you proposed would produce opportunities for these kinds of rants with practically every base take attempt. People who are only trying to help would be getting screamed at on range or country regularly, quite possibly not understanding what they're doing wrong.
2) I had missed your first post where you had thrown up some numbers, but 20-30 can still be a horde, still roll unopposed. Limit it to be lower than that, and it's too easy to defend.
I remember one night a couple weeks ago, some squaddies and I were knocking about and started headed over an enemy base. There were 4 or 5 of us, maybe no more than 5 or 6 other friendlies headed in the same direction, a couple of them probably to pork the base. I was thinking, 'Nice bite size furball is probably going to develop here.'
Then the red bar took a Viagra. Within a 1-2 minute period, suddenly there are 20+ red icons coming up. I assume they thought we were a sweep for an incoming raid. We could've run but figured we'd stick it out, friendly force was obliterated, red bar disappeared.
An isolated incident for me for sure, but it got me thinking about how it seems likely that if a small enemy force comes to a base, defensive hording can occur quite possibly because people see that it's not too big to oppose, so they figure 'Let's go stop them!' Between that possibility, and the fact that defenders can keep reupping at death, attacking forces need to be of a reasonable size to have a reasonable chance.
Unfortunately, a small to medium sized attacking force can either be a horde if no significant opposition shows up, or stopped cold if close to equivalent or greater numbers show up. Code just can't tell the difference.
Wiley.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And all of that is why Wiley is a great wingman and a hell-of-a-lot-a fun to fly with.
<S> Miss ya bud
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And all of that is why Wiley is a great wingman and a hell-of-a-lot-a fun to fly with.
<S> Miss ya bud
Ditto, dude. :salute
Wiley.
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Appology accepted Wiley, no hard feelings.
I used to be a bit like you, I used to try and influence the fights. But then I got to thinking: Why bother? 9/10 times, the other players don't take advantage of it, even when I announce what I'm trying to do for them. I can't fight the horde on my own. And if we don't play smart, we'll get beaten by numbers.
I guess what really gets my goat is that here numbers can often trump skill in AH. I can be the best pilot in the game, and still get killed by some group of players that I would beat in a 1v1 inside of 15 seconds, and all because he had 27 other people with him. This is also when I switched to GV'ing, where skill and guile can beat numbers far more often than in the air.
I can count on both hands the number of times that I've been part of a small group that succesfully out-fought an aerial horde. I couldn't even begin to guess the number of times I've seen and helped that happen in a GV.
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I guess what really gets my goat is that here numbers can often trump skill in AH. I can be the best pilot in the game, and still get killed by some group of players that I would beat in a 1v1 inside of 15 seconds
And to me, that's what makes the game great. This is one of the few remaining games that routinely creates unwinnable situations for you. You have to take your kills either by skill or by setting up beforehand with alt/speed/numbers/whatever else you have at your disposal. That's what I like about it. If there's a large group of bandits, they're going to do their damnedest to kill you, unlike most other games where they put limits on them so they have to come at you one at a time like a Chuck Norris movie.
I get why it frustrates people though.
Wiley.
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And to me, that's what makes the game great. This is one of the few remaining games that routinely creates unwinnable situations for you. You have to take your kills either by skill or by setting up beforehand with alt/speed/numbers/whatever else you have at your disposal. That's what I like about it. If there's a large group of bandits, they're going to do their damnedest to kill you, unlike most other games where they put limits on them so they have to come at you one at a time like a Chuck Norris movie.
I get why it frustrates people though.
Wiley.
That's hitting the nail on the head. You can do everything right, have great skill, and still get beat down, shot up, leaking everything, low and slow, running like a girl and screaming like a banshee, and then die a glorious virtual death. Situational awareness really helps but even that won't save you every time.
We all certainly like to "get the kill" but its the possibility of dying that jacks my heartrate up and keeps me coming back for more.
Ya'll should have a priveledge to fly with a guy like Wiley sometime. I have. He speaks the truth when he talks of how he looks for against the odds but possibly survivable fights..............lemme give ya a quote from him to give you a simple example...................."Zoney, I'm heading toward the red dar bar in ****, it looks festive".