Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: pervert on December 10, 2012, 11:03:58 PM
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This is not a whine thread to start with, but I was wondering tonight why is there not a dedicated core of good P51 sticks? Its the most popular plane in the game hands down but I cannot honestly remember the last time I was impressed with a P51 that I ran into in the MA, the 2 I do remember Sunbat and Grmrpr that was years ago.
Could it be that one of its most used strengths 'running away real fast' is the reason no one consistently pushes this plane and therefore why they 'P51 pilots' continue to suck in it? I have flown it before and I think its got a lot of great attributes, maybe only lacking in the thrust department, so why do you all fly around like really bad AI in a really good plane??
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I rather enjoyed it in the last scenario.
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It doesn't turn well when slow (full flaps), or roll well, also if you just disengaged from a fight and won, it's not like our K4 or D9, it is a heavy mofo and it feels like it takes ages to accelerate, also there's not much of a reward for anyone who would push/fly a P51(assuming you mean mostly D's) to its limits. 5 ENY, even your dora is 15, we make some perks when we win fights :)
Not that perks are really any incentive what so ever, just a thought.
Anyway that's how the 51D felt the times I've flown it. Also if someone sees a super slow pony just out of a turn fight, it's like seeing a low mossie, everyone wants the runstang/easy perks (or that's what I think :lol )
There are however a few good pony pilots, ran into DirtDevl earlier, he was damn good, BigR comes to mind as well. Other than that though, you're right, not too many good pony pilots.
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Isn't SirNuke in your squad? :) Pretty sure he flies the 51D almost all the time. Though I haven't 1v1 him yet...I think. So I don't know how good he really is but he's definitely good at BnZing if you want to call it that. ;)
As for your question, for me,because a 51D TnBing is a giant neon sign saying "come pick me, free perks." The few times I flew it last tour, I got picked. Once with Latrobe P38's and once with Twinboom's 110C. A couple of other times in tank town.
It's also rather hard not to abuse the speed it can achieve. Many times I started to dive away in order to gain some speed in order to pull off a turn, only to realize that to the other guy, it must've looked like I was running. Promptly turned around and went back to TnBing.
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The P51 is a crutch plane. If a player gets in trouble they can just go nose down and out run anything in the game (and out turn the only thing that can catch it), that usually occurs after they have dropped their 2936 lbs of ords on a hanger.
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The P51 is a crutch plane. If a player gets in trouble they can just go nose down and out run anything in the game (and out turn the only thing that can catch it), that usually occurs after they have dropped their 2936 lbs of ords on a hanger.
(http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/13877i82ADA93F76E4170E/image-size/medium?v=mpbl-1&px=-1)
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ANOTHER P51 thread? :huh
While a lot may 'suck', there are quite a number of good p51 sticks. Pand, Paladin3 (and many of his squad mates), Rapier to name a couple I've seen from experience, and while I would rather not toot my own horn too loud I would consider myself an above average Pony pilot as well.
When a noob joins this game hes basically presented two planes: The Spit 16 which would be for the "I dont care if I die i just want to kill something!" minded pilots, and the P51 for the "Getting owned in a new game quickly makes me lose interest in said game" minded ones. Many 51 pilots just make the mistake of never actually trying to learn anything other than hit and run, at least not for a LONG time.
Doesnt bother me any that most people dont take the Pony seriously in a furball. I've caught SO many people with their pants at their ankles when they thought i was just going to run away and then suddenly see tracers go past their cockpit. Ohh the stick-stirring goodness.
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This thread sucked before it started. :aok
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I throughly enjoy my 51 and I don't run from my fightd unless I'm bingo fuel. 51s don't produce sucky pilots people like the 51 because its one of the most popular fighters of WWII. Some of the best 51 pilots I flew with just recently flew in the DGS II scenario. :salute
-BFOOT1
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The P51 is a crutch plane. If a player gets in trouble they can just go nose down and out run anything in the game (and out turn the only thing that can catch it), that usually occurs after they have dropped their 2936 lbs of ords on a hanger.
K4 is just as fast as a mustang on the deck and the LA7 is much faster. The K4 will easily out turn the mustang, and the LA7 has a slight advantage in a stall fight. Any F4u with a bit more E will be able to run down a stang too....and easily out turn it.
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I rather enjoyed it in the last scenario.
Beat me to it! :)
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Pervert, its because of the same reason why you cant see a decent Dora stick from the hundreds you meet every day.
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The P51D is an excellent plane that can definitely fight. However, it is a popular plane and therefore the average pilot level is, well, average or even a little below given other birds are more popular with veterans. If you see a D11, A5, 109G2, 205, Spit5 and a few other models, there's a good change that the pilot's skill is well above average and the plane will do more "amazing" things.
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This question could be asked about many more planes like La7, Spit 16, K4 to mention some.
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Hello Pervert, this isn't an ankle hump BTW . But I could agree that most pony sticks are 1 pass, and gone. In game till another guy shows: Then it's dive ,and run again. :D Same can be said about the predictablility ,of spitfire flyboys that have 1 tactic. To fly straight at you guns blazing. Dodgem if you can till they out number you! ;) I miss my old 3Dpro stick , man i could Ho, who knows !
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This is not a whine thread to start with, . . .
Ha! Self-administered foreplay is what it looks like.
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It doesn't turn well when slow (full flaps), or roll well, also if you just disengaged from a fight and won, it's not like our K4 or D9, it is a heavy mofo and it feels like it takes ages to accelerate, also there's not much of a reward for anyone who would push/fly a P51(assuming you mean mostly D's) to its limits. 5 ENY, even your dora is 15, we make some perks when we win fights :)
Not that perks are really any incentive what so ever, just a thought.
Anyway that's how the 51D felt the times I've flown it. Also if someone sees a super slow pony just out of a turn fight, it's like seeing a low mossie, everyone wants the runstang/easy perks (or that's what I think :lol )
There are however a few good pony pilots, ran into DirtDevl earlier, he was damn good, BigR comes to mind as well. Other than that though, you're right, not too many good pony pilots.
Obviously, you've never seen 0lDemon on the deck mixing it up.
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This question could be asked about many more planes like La7, Spit 16, K4 to mention some.
I would say overall there are more aggressive pony pilots than there are 190D pilots.
It isn't the plane that makes someone timid just the pilot.
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Obviously, you've never seen 0lDemon on the deck mixing it up.
+1
If this is who im thinking of, it was a very memorable experiance......he had me shedding parts more than a SAPP landing. Was the first time i wished a pony would have run away :lol
Love the guys that stick around and fight the Pony D/B :aok always a good time
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Obviously, you've never seen 0lDemon on the deck mixing it up.
That old goat gave up went to that World of Tonka. But yes he normally stuck around low and slow.
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Most people think fighting has to be low and slow but the Pony excels at going fast. Therefore, to fly smart and to the strengths of my Pony I must keep it slightly below compression at all times, right? :uhoh
I've been trying to help my brother learn some other planes (finally got him to venture from the Spit16). He basically had no idea how to "fight fast". I think a whole lot of people don't, and that's why the Pony gets such a bad rep. Sad too. It's such a great plane.
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I owned Pervert in my Typhoon his Narzzie plane was toast :old:
He logged straight after as well :old:
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Steve was always a good P-51 stick, at least from my memory. Haven't seen him around in awhile though.
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Isn't SirNuke in your squad? :) Pretty sure he flies the 51D almost all the time. Though I haven't 1v1 him yet...I think. So I don't know how good he really is but he's definitely good at BnZing if you want to call it that. ;)
thats why he says the P51 breed crappy pilots :lol And we did 1V1 in the past, the K4 matchup is always troublesome tho :cry
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(http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/13877i82ADA93F76E4170E/image-size/medium?v=mpbl-1&px=-1)
Guess it struck a chord with you, eh?
No other speed demon can do what the P51D can do in its entirety.
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Isn't SirNuke in your squad? :) Pretty sure he flies the 51D almost all the time. Though I haven't 1v1 him yet...I think. So I don't know how good he really is but he's definitely good at BnZing if you want to call it that. ;)
thats why he says the P51 breed crappy pilots :lol And we did 1V1 in the past, the K4 matchup is always troublesome tho :cry
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This is not a whine thread to start with, but I was wondering tonight why is there not a dedicated core of good P51 sticks? Its the most popular plane in the game hands down but I cannot honestly remember the last time I was impressed with a P51 that I ran into in the MA, the 2 I do remember Sunbat and Grmrpr that was years ago.
Could it be that one of its most used strengths 'running away real fast' is the reason no one consistently pushes this plane and therefore why they 'P51 pilots' continue to suck in it? I have flown it before and I think its got a lot of great attributes, maybe only lacking in the thrust department, so why do you all fly around like really bad AI in a really good plane??
All planes have their strengths and weaknesses, the ponies are most likely the most well known, as the plane is. When people jump in it, it is because this is the plane they read about, this is the plane they think they know. However, once you've flown it a while you learn that it isn't the domineering plane you read it to be.... in the game at least. So most look toward other planes to fly, the K4 for speed and cannon, the Spit16 for speed turn and cannon, and so on. Those few that stay in the pony are very good at it but do fight it to its strengths, like most people do with other planes. You don't see too many dora's turn fighting on the deck, why would you expect to see the ponies doing it?
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There is a prevailing myth among pilots that the 51 can't do dogfights.
Need to get this out of pilot's heads.
Its good enough to trespass at least a little bit into turny plane's territory.
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ran into DirtDevl earlier, he was damn good, BigR comes to mind as well. Other than that though, you're right, not too many good pony pilots.
Same here, his pull up HO was most excellent. Better than most other P51 Degenerates
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Guess it struck a chord with you, eh?
No other speed demon can do what the P51D can do in its entirety.
I don't fly the P-51D unless I need to blow something up.
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Fugi, noone is expecting a pony to turn with a spit. But at least, they could turn with a Dora, to be honest, instead of the instant running.
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Fugi, noone is expecting a pony to turn with a spit. But at least, they could turn with a Dora, to be honest, instead of the instant running.
oh I agree, I'll turn with a P40 on the deck in a pony, ask Ace8 :D, but then again, I'm only here for the fight. But the OP asked about ponies creating sucky pilots. I think sucky pilots are the majority of pony pilots for the reasons stated in my other post. The ones who stick with the pony are some of the best pony pilots in the game and will turn, even with spits and such.
As to why we have so many sucky pilots who won't turn with a Dora.... well thats a whole different subject :P
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I rather enjoyed it in the last scenario.
Beat me to it! :)
That makes three of us.
That was a totaly badass scenario.
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I must agree with Redbull. A low n slow P51 will soon experience what is known as the "seagull effect" (mine! mine! mine!)
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Pervert, its because of the same reason why you cant see a decent Dora stick from the hundreds you meet every day.
You don't get to see the good stick. You're dead before it happens. :devil
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and will turn, even with spits and such.
I'll turn/outturn most aircraft at cornering speed in a 51B... but once you've continued the turn and exceeded that threshold, you become a considerably easy target. While it takes on average 3-5 snapshot busts to down most luftwaffe aircraft in a Bravo, it usually only takes them half of one to quickly turn you in to a 'sucky pilot'.
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+1 pand
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Like every plane there's been a handfull of really good P-51D pilots over the years. Evidently you've just never run into them.
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I do a lot of ords porking so the P-51D is the plane for me. I can go to a large field and kill all 4 ords and fly home even if there are other planes in the air defending. I am almost aways alone at the time so I do not engage in dog fights plus may frame frame is so low I never know if the plane I fire at is even still there when I shoot.
So I spend my time porking enemy baes & re suppling ours. The P-51D is a great plane, It shot down MiG-15s in Korea and was still in use in the 67 Israeli war and was in service in other countries until the late 1980s. There is a reason for that it was the best all around piston engine fighter ever produced and only the ME-109 can claim near the same service life. (Spain into the 70s)
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"The P-51 can't do what a Spitfire can do, but it can do it over Berlin".--Some famous guy from WWII, Yeager I think. Anyway, that should clear it up.
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+1 some old famous dude.
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As far as I know, just Pand.
The P-51 does seem to help with excellent map drawring skills though so it cancels out.
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It doesn't turn well when slow (full flaps), or roll well, also if you just disengaged from a fight and won, it's not like our K4 or D9, it is a heavy mofo and it feels like it takes ages to accelerate, also there's not much of a reward for anyone who would push/fly a P51(assuming you mean mostly D's) to its limits. 5 ENY, even your dora is 15, we make some perks when we win fights :)
Not that perks are really any incentive what so ever, just a thought.
Anyway that's how the 51D felt the times I've flown it. Also if someone sees a super slow pony just out of a turn fight, it's like seeing a low mossie, everyone wants the runstang/easy perks (or that's what I think :lol )
There are however a few good pony pilots, ran into DirtDevl earlier, he was damn good, BigR comes to mind as well. Other than that though, you're right, not too many good pony pilots.
This :aok
But will add that I agree with OP. When I fly and Pony, there is a sense of stupidity that overwhelms me when I stall fight it, as if the plane, and the community are telling me "Moron, that's not how you're supposed to fly this plane". When a plane is so good at a certain type of mission, you feel compelled as a student of the game to learn to fly planes to their strengths. This creates competing egos in your brain. One wants to be smart (everyone like being smart) and one wants to be the best fighter jock on the block. I think to be the best fighter jock on the block, you have to conquer the fear of looking stupid. Because in the end, if you can't dog fight a Pony and beat all comers, you can never really claim top jock status. Which bring us to a second revelation...if you ignore your fear of looking stupid and master the pony as a stall fighter, all those victories will never look stupid. :salute
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You don't get to see the good stick. You're dead before it happens. :devil
Nope, the real good sticks are known to be visible for a long time, from a close distance before they kill me. Unless you call the afk hunters good sticks.
Pony vs 190 can be so much fun even if i lose.
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This :aok
But will add that I agree with OP. When I fly and Pony, there is a sense of stupidity that overwhelms me when I stall fight it, as if the plane, and the community are telling me "Moron, that's not how you're supposed to fly this plane". When a plane is so good at a certain type of mission, you feel compelled as a student of the game to learn to fly planes to their strengths. This creates competing egos in your brain. One wants to be smart (everyone like being smart) and one wants to be the best fighter jock on the block. I think to be the best fighter jock on the block, you have to conquer the fear of looking stupid. Because in the end, if you can't dog fight a Pony and beat all comers, you can never really claim top jock status. Which bring us to a second revelation...if you ignore your fear of looking stupid and master the pony as a stall fighter, all those victories will never look stupid. :salute
I enjoy flying planes to their weaknesses and trying to figure out how to still win the fight. Get low and slow, fight 2 or 3 at once, do things with the plane that it's not really suppose to do. I've really learned just how far you can push the limits of some planes by doing this, and when I do fly it to it's strengths it almost seems like easy mode no matter what plane it is. Plus, it's so satisfying to turn fight a zeke or brew with a K4 and win. :D
Maybe this is why I die a lot. :headscratch:
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The ratio of sucky P51 pilots to good P51 pilots is a very high number, unordinarily high. I don't think the P51 breeds sucky pilots however, but sucky pilots gravitate towards it because of its speed and visibility.
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If the OP's statement was true, then would it not also apply to the 109s, and La7s? As a matter of point, the La7 is a better beginners plane than a 51. The lore of the Mustang though is large in a lot of peoples minds.
If it were not for the negative connotation of the 109's benefactors the 109 usage numbers would equal the Mustang's I would dare to guess.
I would note though any stellar attribute of a plane will go underutilized in the hands of the inexperienced. This would suggest the answer to the OP's question is no.
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Nope, the real good sticks are known to be visible for a long time, from a close distance before they kill me. Unless you call the afk hunters good sticks.
Pony vs 190 can be so much fun even if i lose.
It was a joke. It's very hard to surprise attack in AH unless someones afk.
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I enjoy flying planes to their weaknesses and trying to figure out how to still win the fight. Get low and slow, fight 2 or 3 at once, do things with the plane that it's not really suppose to do. I've really learned just how far you can push the limits of some planes by doing this, and when I do fly it to it's strengths it almost seems like easy mode no matter what plane it is. Plus, it's so satisfying to turn fight a zeke or brew with a K4 and win. :D
Maybe this is why I die a lot. :headscratch:
:aok. On the nose my friend. :salute
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but I was wondering tonight why is there not a dedicated core of good P51 sticks?
There used to be. After flying L/W for a couple of years, I was lucky enough to get to join the 13th TAS about ten years ago. I was the "youngster" in the squad, most of the guys being 20 or more years older than me at the time, Rude, Toad, OzKansas (RIP), so many great sticks in that squad. It seemed every night I logged in I had 8 or more squaddies as wingmen back then. I'd say half of my time in the air in that squad was spent with my flaps down more than one notch, we were a P51 squad that didn't take bases or bomb, but FOUGHT, and most of my good memories are of low level twisting fights in the "old" P51 model that turned pretty well, had tons of ammo, and was deadly when used with 4 or 5 friends against mobs of opponents.
As for nowadays, BigR and Pand, as well as others mentioned are always guaranteed to give an entertaining fight, as opposed to a lengthy linear pursuit, but as most others have commented, the ratio is what it is, as the P51 is lets face it, the most "popular" or known fighter of the war, and new players will automatically gravitate towards it, and then stick with it due to its easy mode attributes.
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If it were not for the negative connotation of the 109's benefactors the 109 usage numbers would equal the Mustang's I would dare to guess.
Hmm. what are "...the negative connotation of the 109's benefactors..." ? :headscratch:
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NVM Im not touching this topic, too many trolls throwing bait into the same fishing hole.l
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What I find amazing among Spit pilots is their ignorance about performance vs. speed.
Planes are not made of magic. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. If you want to fly a plane with a good turning performance then you will need a low wing loading design (more wing area for the total plane weight). Generally a plane with good turn performance will have more wing area resulting in more drag which decreases its maximum speed. If you want to fly something fast then you must design a plane with a smaller wing area (high wing loading). Since the wing is smaller the plane will have less drag making fly faster. However, the smaller wing will decrease its turning performance.
So, basically if you want to fly an apple then fly a dang apple and quit ur whining about the people flying an orange.
My point is why whine about pony. If you look at all the planes in WWII they all were designed to get the job done. They were not designed to only do fancy/girly aerobatics. As a matter of fact the F-15 is one of the first planes coined to be designed with above average maneuverability, every plane up to this one was designed for speed. The F-15’s maneuverability claim was discussed on a History/Military Channel episode.
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someone mentioned "oldDemon" yup that guy was great in the 51 at turn fighting it...STeve was a great shot in it but kept it fast.....
I will never forget the first fight with OldDemon....me in the Hurri2C him 51....he passes with no HO....I figure he will keep going.... he was right around, and from there what ensued was 10 plus minute fight for me trying to get out of his guns....I finally did and got the kill, but damn he was turn fighting a Hurri in a 51 :O and doing one hell of a job of it.
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I must throw my opinion here...
I believe that the P-51 is actually a more difficult plane to fly for the newer players. Think about it, what is the first thing a newbie will do when they see red? Go straight for it!! They lack the knowledge to think about their speed, alt, and situation awareness entirely.
So lets say a newbie is flying a p-51 at 400mph around 8k.. And oh my, they spot a lonely spit low and slow. They are not going to think about what things they need to avoid in order to defeat the contact. So what's this pilot do? We'll the fist thing that most p-51 pilots do, dive in! The spit will ultimately pull a hard bank and downward to mess up the pilots shot. So now what? The newbie will realize that with his speed, he will never be able to hit his target.
So after he misses his shot he may either pull a hard bank, back into the spitfire possibly cut the throttle to loose speed (or engine off LOL!) and commit to a turn fight, and his death.
Same goes for the spit as we'll however if he attempted to follow the 51 up, stall, then die. I believe any plane lies with the skill of the pilot and the knowledge of the opponent you are against.
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I will never forget the first fight with OldDemon....me in the Hurri2C him 51....he passes with no HO....I figure he will keep going.... he was right around, and from there what ensued was 10 plus minute fight for me trying to get out of his guns....I finally did and got the kill, but damn he was turn fighting a Hurri in a 51 :O and doing one hell of a job of it.
How long ago was that... before HTC changed the airflow or after?
Do you have a film, I would love to see this and potentially learn something. :salute
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If a player gets in trouble they can just go nose down and out run anything in the game (and out turn the only thing that can catch it)
Mr. 4-Hog says hello.
In my past experience it's not that P-51s breed poor pilots, but it certainly ATTRACTS them. It's fast, it's famous. A large number of Pony drivers rely on making fast passes on a target and running away because it keeps them safe with an occasional chance of kills. They don't know how to truly work the P-51's BnZ capability to its true advantage. This leads to a LOT of dead Ponies who over-commit on their high-speed passes and get reversed in half a second, or don't provide much to a fight other than an occasional easily spotted, and just as easily avoided, nuisance.
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The 51D remains one of my favorite planes to turnfight in. It certainly takes alot of feel to get it to dance while slow, but it is very capable of giving most planes a good run. Mir and I have had some real white knuckle fights in Ponies.... Some of my most memorable in fact.
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My point is why whine about pony. If you look at all the planes in WWII they all were designed to get the job done. They were not designed to only do fancy/girly aerobatics. As a matter of fact the F-15 is one of the first planes coined to be designed with above average maneuverability, every plane up to this one was designed for speed. The F-15’s maneuverability claim was discussed on a History/Military Channel episode.
it was the first AMERICAN plane designed for maneuverability, which makes sense as far as AH goes because not a single American plane in AH maneuvers well without flaps, and even then most of them dog it.
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How long ago was that... before HTC changed the airflow or after?
Do you have a film, I would love to see this and potentially learn something. :salute
no film, this was a long time ago when I flew the Hurri exclusively.
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Being one of those bad 51 sticks..... my humble thoughts'.
1. We fly the planes we "like the way it looks".
2. We are DoDo's NOT Upperclassmen when it comes to BFM. Because of this we lack the understanding of concepts such as "Cornering Speeds" & "Energy Management".
3. We DO NOT know the plane we are fighting against.... we know a little about it from reading up IF the new guys even do that. Most are studying the 51's strengths and weaknesses. Knowing the planes biggest threat from another aircraft standpoint, well would be going a step further into the "Learning Curve" than most new pilots are currently at? Learn them from FLYING the other aircraft. which leads me to....
4. We do not fly other aircraft constantly enough to develop into a well rounded pilot. Instead we follow the true meaning of insanity, craziness or madness is a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. IE Repeating the same process multiple times expecting different results.
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The P51 is a crutch plane. If a player gets in trouble they can just go nose down and out run anything in the game (and out turn the only thing that can catch it), that usually occurs after they have dropped their 2936 lbs of ords on a hanger.
+1
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it was the first AMERICAN plane designed for maneuverability, which makes sense as far as AH goes because not a single American plane in AH maneuvers well without flaps, and even then most of them dog it.
F4F/FM2. I rest my case.
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Always raggin' on the 51s :rolleyes:
The P-51 Delta is the most sexy, beautiful aircraft ever built. She costs me 15 bucks a month. I do stupid stuff with it. I very well could be a sucky pilot! :uhoh
The 51 is not a turn and burn plane. She's not a stall fighter. Speed is her strong suite. Why do people rag on guys flying the plane as it was designed to be flown?
On whether or not it makes someone a sucky pilot....? I don't know, I've seen suckage in all the planes
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F4F/FM2. I rest my case.
SBD. :)
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The 51 is not a turn and burn plane. She's not a stall fighter. Speed is her strong suite. Why do people rag on guys flying the plane as it was designed to be flown?
I think the problem, uptown, is the way the P-51 is often ACTUALLY used in the arenas: Get a lot of altitude, fly through a fight at 500mph, then run for five miles before finally turning around and only if there's no one behind them.
Compare this to what the REALLY nasty Pony sticks do: Enter with a small bit of altitude, engage at a reasonable but not overwhelmingly high speed, and use vertical extensions to keep the fight within about 1500 yards and wear down the target with constant attacks until they're out of juice and can't evade any more, then drop the hammer on them.
Of the two, I am far, FAR more concerned about the second guy, because he's pushing the fight, harder to avoid, and much harder to neutralize than the dweeb zipping through at ludicrous speed. He might pick off one or two unwary targets, but he's really a non-factor, and can be reversed on in about 5 seconds. This is the same thing that keeps 262s as largely only an annoyance in most Main Arena fights rather than a genuine threat (I offer the contrast of the 163 where, due to abuse of engine shutdown and restart, it's basically treated like a Zeke with a warp drive).
This is why I argue the P-51 doesn't BREED poor pilots, but certainly attracts them. They can use their speed to pick off two or so kills for their name in lights, but actually being able to FIGHT in a P-51 takes a fair bit of learning, which people don't pick up with the usual trick you see from the majority of Pony drivers.
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F4F/FM2. I rest my case.
Last I knew the F4F/FM2 has maneuvering flaps, no? I havent flown one in a while but if I remember correctly...
...so this doesn't go against what I was saying. The F4u is a pretty maneuverable bird too, if u use the flaps.
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There's a bunch of us that will stallfight a 51 versus nearly anything. Likewise, there are a bunch of guys who like 190 variants that will do the same. However, the majority in each ride, 51 or 190, regardless of model, don't think that they can 'beat' a better 'turning' plane, so they try a few high speed turns then run away. They never learn more than that either.
It's not the plane, it's the player that limits his or her self.
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There's a bunch of us that will stallfight a 51 versus nearly anything. Likewise, there are a bunch of guys who like 190 variants that will do the same. However, the majority in each ride, 51 or 190, regardless of model, don't think that they can 'beat' a better 'turning' plane, so they try a few high speed turns then run away. They never learn more than that either.
It's not the plane, it's the player that limits his or her self.
Get into a a stall fight with a Ki84 or a c202 with any 'average' pilot and try to say that again :D. While I agree that in many cases its about the pilot's skill, the pilot of either of the former planes would have to be terrible in order for a pony to beat them in a fully flaps extended stall fight.
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it was the first AMERICAN plane designed for maneuverability,
No it wasn't.
ack-ack
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I think there are a number of factors that go into what becomes known as a "typical" P-51 pilot. I think first off to an U.S. player it is the most iconic aircraft of WW2, anyone with even a passing knowledge or familiarity with the air war will at least recognize the P-51, if an allied plane is going to appear in just about any WW2 based game the 51 is more the likely going to be included. It also has a reputation for being a war winner, so if you're a new player the 51 will probably be high on your list of planes to try out. It's the best right?
One thing that just about every player has in common, we want to be successful in whatever part of the game interests us. So we have a plane with a sterling reputation (some would say historically overrated) so they take it out, and quickly die. So they start asking around, how do I get better at shooting people down in the 51? What's the single most common answer? Don't slow down, keep it fast, BnZ, for a new player who hasn't yet developed a sense of ACM, much less aggressive E fighting (which I think is one of the harder skills to teach/learn) this advice quickly becomes the one pass, haul a** P-51 pilots we see all over the place in the MA.
Does the 51 breed "sucky" pilots, no, I think the community does to a large extent.
Now that's going to sound pretty critical, but I don't think it really is. What does the 51 offer the neophyte AH'er? A plane that offers good survivability (it's fast), a good ordnance load to help take a field (dive bombing is a more easy skill to teach and develop than complex ACM). In short it gives the new player a chance to contribute in some fashion and maybe not get slaughtered in the process. At the end of the day that's all each of us is really after.
Do I get frustrated by 51's who don't engage in a fight? Absolutely, but I can say the same about 190's, Typhoons, La-7's.
Naturally this isn't going to apply to everyone, we have aggressive 51 pilots, we have less aggressive vets as well who for one reason or another aren't interested in a protracted fight (I do think a 51 can be flown to it's strengths and "fight"). Admittedly it's a generalization with a lot of exceptions but when you look at the overwhelming presence the 51 has in terms of number of sorties I think this covers a lot of it, at least in part.
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great post right there
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Well as one of the more suckier Pony riders I for one like to fly it just because its perty!!! I like Spits cause theyre perty...I like Jugs cause they perty in an ugly way...kind of like the portly woman with a drop ead gorgeous face...lil more butt that youd like but her eyes just melt ya...lol
There are some good pony drivers in the game that can fight in it , in all areas....Steve , Oldemon , Stang , Fester just to name a few...Some that I forget but I know theres more.
I agree with Soulyss.....on every point....I've been on both ends...running for my life and chasing trying to get a kill....like Soulyss said...we're all just trying to get a kill or 2 or 3 and get back to base for the most part.
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Get into a a stall fight with a Ki84 or a c202 with any 'average' pilot and try to say that again :D. While I agree that in many cases its about the pilot's skill, the pilot of either of the former planes would have to be terrible in order for a pony to beat them in a fully flaps extended stall fight.
I've done it countless times and come out on top. So have several others. I've posted a film of an extended 51D vs c202 fight versus a very good player, hoping people would see an extended rolling scissors fight at the deck and learn from it.
I've been on the losing end too. For instance, I know that BigR, in a 51, can beat my 38 if he gets saddled up on me. I also know that I can beat a lot of 38's in a 51 because I know what a 38 can do.
There are a lot of things that we can do in this game due to the fact that we can control throttle, flaps, and trim without removing our hands from controls. MtnMan made an excellent post in another thread describing such.
One of the keys is to know what the other plane can or cannot do, how it handles, how it gains or dumps speed, and so on.
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Do keep in mind, that many of the guys ripping on the 51 not turning, are guys that are flying better turning birds.
Poor to average pilots in any bird are going to lose to a good to great stick in a better turning bird if they try and fight that fight.
INK you gotta admit, unless you find a guy like mir who doesn't care if he dies, but lives to push the envelope, it would be silly to try and turn with a Ki-84. You described OlDemon turning in a 51 with your Hurri. Again that's just silly as it's fighting the Hurricane's fight. Unless the Mustang guy is a bend it until it breaks driver, they aren't going to turn with a Hurricane.
But that describes 99 percent of the pilots in the MA.
In the end it's about how you want to play the game. I haven't flown since the latest patch. Is their an achievement for putting a certain amount of G's on a plane in a turn? :)
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I haven't flown since the latest patch. Is their an achievement for putting a certain amount of G's on a plane in a turn? :)
No idea, but I wonder if they put one in for how many parts you can off while crash--er, LANDING. :D
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IMO you must have better situational awareness in the P51 as modeled in the game. You cannot outrun things where you usually engage them - on the deck the Dora, K4, LA7 and Spit16 will out accellerate, climb, and run you. All are very common. You have to know when it is time to disengage - which may mean rolling off of a target rather than fighting their fight and loosing the turn fight, ie bleeding so much that you cannot then extend if you need to when his buddies show up.
The P51 is a tough plane to fly. It requires you to increase your SA not just of what is going on around you but the state of your aircraft as well because you have to plan ahead. You also cannot just yank the stick, you must finesse your stick, throttle, flaps, and rudder. On top of that the 50s require more than a brief tap on the shoulder to end the fight.
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I've done it countless times and come out on top. So have several others. I've posted a film of an extended 51D vs c202 fight versus a very good player, hoping people would see an extended rolling scissors fight at the deck and learn from it.
I've been on the losing end too. For instance, I know that BigR, in a 51, can beat my 38 if he gets saddled up on me. I also know that I can beat a lot of 38's in a 51 because I know what a 38 can do.
There are a lot of things that we can do in this game due to the fact that we can control throttle, flaps, and trim without removing our hands from controls. MtnMan made an excellent post in another thread describing such.
One of the keys is to know what the other plane can or cannot do, how it handles, how it gains or dumps speed, and so on.
I would love to see that video then because the c202 is probably the only plane in the game that I will not under any circumstances try to maneuver with, it ALWAYS ends up bad for me. Maybe its a curse... :noid
I guess if you were messing with trim during the engagement I could somewhat understand. I dont touch trim when fighting because my trim isnt easy to get to in the heat of things. Id still have to see the video. Would love to add new tricks to my arsenal.
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Last I knew the F4F/FM2 has maneuvering flaps, no? I havent flown one in a while but if I remember correctly...
Really only needed against Zekes. Almost anything else they'll out-turn.
Every plane has flaps and they are used on every plane in the arena so to say they have flaps is pointless.
You said NO AMERICAN plane was manouverable before the P-51. I respectfully disagree.
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No it wasn't.
ack-ack
Care to elaborate then? If you are going to call me out I'd at least like to hear your claim, that is if you have one.
Spare yourself from using our cartoon models to prove anything though, let's use some real history here.
From any of the sources I have read from as far as american avionics, American planes have always been built around the principle of speed and firepower. Maneuverability was never at the top of that list, until the F-15. Maybe in WW1? I dont really know, I know very little about American WW1 Aircraft. So If you can prove me wrong, please teach me something, I'm interested. No sarcasm intended.
You said NO AMERICAN plane was manouverable before the P-51. I respectfully disagree.
No, I said no american aircraft was built primarily to be maneuverable before the F-15. I wouldn't consider the P51 to be a 'maneuverable' aircraft. Disagreeing is completely fine, I'm no expert by any means, but I would like to know why and what plane because I'm interested in hearing other opinion/fact.
And yes, every plane has flaps. But some planes, like the spitfire, do not use them in combat to better their rate of turn. In game, pretty much every american plane does, as well as many others. Many of these planes, to my knowledge, used them much differently in real life than they do in this game. That was the only point i was trying to make about flaps.
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Care to elaborate then? If you are going to call me out I'd at least like to hear your claim, that is if you have one.
Spare yourself from using our cartoon models to prove anything though, let's use some real history here.
From any of the sources I have read from as far as american avionics, American planes have always been built around the principle of speed and firepower. Maneuverability was never at the top of that list, until the F-15. Maybe in WW1? I dont really know, I know very little about American WW1 Aircraft. So If you can prove me wrong, please teach me something, I'm interested. No sarcasm intended.
No, I said no american aircraft was built primarily to be maneuverable before the F-15. I wouldn't consider the P51 to be a 'maneuverable' aircraft. Disagreeing is completely fine, I'm no expert by any means, but I would like to know why and what plane because I'm interested in hearing other opinion/fact.
And yes, every plane has flaps. But some planes, like the spitfire, do not use them in combat to better their rate of turn. In game, pretty much every american plane does, as well as many others. Many of these planes, to my knowledge, used them much differently in real life than they do in this game. That was the only point i was trying to make about flaps.
If you are talking about priority, I would tent to agree. Higher, faster, farther, seem to have been the first three priorities, with toughness as a fourth, and ordinance capability fith. Maneuverability seems to be no higher than sixth priority. that's not to say some planes didn't end up with good or even high maneuverability, it means that when they started out in design, and trade offs arose, maneuverability was sacrificed in favor of th eother attributes, to a point. There were probably minimum requirements in each catagory. But the target for the categories was set higher in the Altitude, Speed, Range, toughness, weapons, categories. I think all you are saying is no contract bid ever went out, that specified the "turn rate" or other maneuverability categories as "Best". I do believe that did change with the F-15, where maneuverability (lots of ways to define that) wsa to be "Best in class"
But I would love to hear if another plane was targetted as such. Perhaps the F8F? or F-86? :salute
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But I would love to hear if another plane was targetted as such. Perhaps the F8F? or F-86?
I was thinking Hellcat.
- oldman
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Do 51s breed sucky pilots? Yes.
I remember talking to an Air Force pilot who flew F-16s at Nellis back in the mid-80s. He had done some exchange training with the US Navy. He bragged up the 'electric jet' versus the mighty aluminum cloud (F-14) and noted the abilities of the Hornet. He then made a comment about Navy pilots being really good because their planes weren't as high performing.
I was a kid and didn't know the questions to ask though in hindsight, when it is easy you don't have to learn the right skills. With a Spit or Zero (not the plane in question) you know that when you are in trouble simply pull on the stick and most of the time you are out of trouble. For a PonyD simply drop the nose, go to WEP and most of the time you are out of trouble. Requires little skill other than this. The ease of these planes limits the need to learn the limits of their ability.
A good 190 driver has to always be aware of the setup (SA), great at estimating speed, timing all kinds of actions to avoid getting in trouble. Many planes are great with limitations. Finding those limits is the skill set.
Just my two cents.
Boo
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If you are talking about priority, I would tent to agree. Higher, faster, farther, seem to have been the first three priorities, with toughness as a fourth, and ordinance capability fith. Maneuverability seems to be no higher than sixth priority. that's not to say some planes didn't end up with good or even high maneuverability, it means that when they started out in design, and trade offs arose, maneuverability was sacrificed in favor of th eother attributes, to a point. There were probably minimum requirements in each catagory. But the target for the categories was set higher in the Altitude, Speed, Range, toughness, weapons, categories. I think all you are saying is no contract bid ever went out, that specified the "turn rate" or other maneuverability categories as "Best". I do believe that did change with the F-15, where maneuverability (lots of ways to define that) wsa to be "Best in class"
But I would love to hear if another plane was targetted as such. Perhaps the F8F? or F-86? :salute
Well said, that pretty much sums up my thought process, you just said it better than I did and added some things that I hadnt thought about. :salute
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Well said, that pretty much sums up my thought process, you just said it better than I did and added some things that I hadnt thought about. :salute
:salute
glad it helped clarify the question...Perhaps AKAK has an answer.
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Do 51s breed sucky pilots? Yes.
I remember talking to an Air Force pilot who flew F-16s at Nellis back in the mid-80s. He had done some exchange training with the US Navy. He bragged up the 'electric jet' versus the mighty aluminum cloud (F-14) and noted the abilities of the Hornet. He then made a comment about Navy pilots being really good because their planes weren't as high performing.
I was a kid and didn't know the questions to ask though in hindsight, when it is easy you don't have to learn the right skills. With a Spit or Zero (not the plane in question) you know that when you are in trouble simply pull on the stick and most of the time you are out of trouble. For a PonyD simply drop the nose, go to WEP and most of the time you are out of trouble. Requires little skill other than this. The ease of these planes limits the need to learn the limits of their ability.
A good 190 driver has to always be aware of the setup (SA), great at estimating speed, timing all kinds of actions to avoid getting in trouble. Many planes are great with limitations. Finding those limits is the skill set.
Just my two cents.
Boo
I agree with your post for the most part. What I get from it is Pony pilots who never fly any other plane never really get accustomed to using much ACM because they get used to being able to nose down and 'extend', and I can see that as true if the pilot in question never pushed himself to get aggressive.
I found the choice of comparing the Pony with the 190 rather interesting though. The D-9 almost mirrors the 51D in performance, and exceeds it in some instances (like climb rate/top speed under 20k) with WEP engaged. I suppose you could be talking about one of the other models.
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Yeah, the Dora is flown very similarly to the P-51 by most pilots: Blow through with a lot of altitude, extend out of con range, lather, rinse repeat. There's probably only a handful of pilots who actually mix it up in the 190D.
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it was the first AMERICAN plane designed for maneuverability, which makes sense as far as AH goes because not a single American plane in AH maneuvers well without flaps, and even then most of them dog it.
The original agreement was for a 400 mph plane built with armamant to protect the pilot and with substantial firepower. Four .50 caliber were to be mounted supplemented with a "special" armament of an additional four .30 caliber. The aircraft was able to obtain this with an engine capable of producing 1030 hp at 16,000 feet using 90 octane fuel. Additionally the aircraft manufacturer was to be able to produce 50 aircraft per month.
You can read between the lines and see that no one was happy with the Allison engine but they still made it work.
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Ya'll keep whining....Ill keep dominating in my Cadillac of the Skies :neener:
(http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/p51web1.jpg)
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F6F turns really well :D
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Ya'll keep whining....Ill keep dominating in my Cadillac of the Skies :neener:
(http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/p51web1.jpg)
Just bring your 4 wingmen, like are shown in the picture. :neener:
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Just bring your 4 wingmen, like are shown in the picture. :neener:
No one likes me so I usually fly alone. :frown:
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The p51 doesn't make poor pilots, many pilots who choose the p51 are poor 'sportsman' and are attracted to the p51 because it enables them.
There are people who I have fought against who fly p51 very well and are not 'poor sportsmen', but they are the minority. This being said, the vast majority of players regardless of plane, play by two tactics, 1) overwhelming numbers & 2) run when numerical superiority is no longer held. Considering that AH is a game and nothing is at stake, neither are respected behaviors and are generally considered cowardly.
Then again, the single motivating game element in AH is ego, nothing more. When the war is won, the war restarts...
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The p51 doesn't make poor pilots, many pilots who choose the p51 are poor 'sportsman' and are attracted to the p51 because it enables them.
There are people who I have fought against who fly p51 very well and are not 'poor sportsmen', but they are the minority. This being said, the vast majority of players regardless of plane, play by two tactics, 1) overwhelming numbers & 2) run when numerical superiority is no longer held. Considering that AH is a game and nothing is at stake, neither are respected behaviors and are generally considered cowardly.
Then again, the single motivating game element in AH is ego, nothing more. When the war is won, the war restarts...
Beat me to it.
I don't think anybody who flies the mustang (or any of the other "faster" planes in the game) is automatically guilty being a generally lame player but they do tend to draw those who are.
The longer you stick with that kind of game play and avoid taking the risks inherent in learning how to fight in other situations (try stuff, die alot, try more stuff, die more etc.) the longer it will be before you learn how to excel in the game in any fashion other than high speed passes and running as soon as you see a faster/higher/numerically superior force. Some folks are good with that and that's cool if that's what they want...it's their money...but they need to get used to someone calling them out on it. Don't forget new planes are free...everytime...all the time.
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Fugitive, I think Cartoon #108 should be a depiction of two P-51s having sex and, in the 2nd panel, one of them gives birth to a little vTard
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Flying the faster plane enables one to control the fight,but they have to want to fight. I love the b pony's and would be happy to fight anyone in the game one on one or even two on one,i do just fine with the bravo and though i do not monitor 200 ,i can say i have never been accused of running.
I for the first 4 years of flying i flew pretty much just the bravo, but in the past few months I'm flying many other birds.
I have been flying the 109's a lot along with, f6f, 205 ,hurries ext.So i AM i pony pilot and coming from me I'm getting just as many kills in the 109's and so on when i fly em ,as when i fly a pony. So i think? its my willingness to learn that makes me the "OK" stick i am ,not the sexy ars plane i picked to fly from the start.
:rolleyes:
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Considering the OPS statement has truth, I would ask what plane develops one into a better, good and maybe even a great stick.
HL
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Considering the OPS statement has truth, I would ask what plane develops one into a better, good and maybe even a great stick.
HL
pee thurty ate
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Considering the OPS statement has truth, I would ask what plane develops one into a better, good and maybe even a great stick.
HL
IF - again, if - you have the willing to fight, just like any plane, except the really turny ones. Still, imo, the ones with a massive torque require the most skills in the same plane 1v1s: F6F, Jugs, Ki84, 109s, 190s.
Edit: met one non-sucky 51 pilot today. Uptown knows who he is ;)
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Yes, I believe it does.
The P51D is fast and has adequate armament,it retains E well and at medium speeds handles very well with all control axis providing similar and expected performance.
That is about it. The E retention is probably its best quality imo.
It does not turn well at low speeds and feels unstable. It feels heavy on the controls at high speeds especially in roll which makes it difficult to make adjustments when diving on a maneuvering target. Further exasperating the situation is the rudder which does not have much authority at high speeds.
The result is you get an aircraft that "likes" to stay at medium speeds because it retains E well and performs average at best at very high speeds (dives) and poorly at low speeds. In the AH planeset in terms of performance I would describe it as decidedly suburban.
This airplane breeds sucky pilots because it has a certain historical reputation of excellence, which does not translate well into the world of AH. E fighting is its strength, but thats one of the hardest styles to master. When it gets slow its easy pickings, when it is super fast it is at best average to control.
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I would love to see that video then because the c202 is probably the only plane in the game that I will not under any circumstances try to maneuver with, it ALWAYS ends up bad for me. Maybe its a curse... :noid
I guess if you were messing with trim during the engagement I could somewhat understand. I dont touch trim when fighting because my trim isnt easy to get to in the heat of things. Id still have to see the video. Would love to add new tricks to my arsenal.
Here's the film of the fight versus the c202:
51D vs c202 (http://www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/pnp_scissors.ahf)
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Considering the OPS statement has truth, I would ask what plane develops one into a better, good and maybe even a great stick.
Planes that are good, but not great.
(Assuming late war; early- and mid-war offer more and better choices)
For the Americans: P-38, P-39Q, P-47, Hellcat, Corsair (except -4 and -1C), FM2
For the English: Typhoon (if you don't fly it like the P-51 pilots at issue here), Spit 14
For the Japanese: Tony
For the Italians: ....anything they've got...
For the Bolsheviks: ....anything they've got, except the La7...
For the Germans: 190A5, Dora (if you don't fly it like the P-51 pilots at issue here), any 109.
Well, hey, you asked and I do have occasional opinions!
- oldman
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The Corsair is an excellent example, because it's a very "busy" plane. Despite the mystique of der uberflappen, you can't just dump flaps and go to town. To really fly the Hog well you're going to learn quite a bit about throttle management and ESPECIALLY how to work the rudder. Spend some time in the Corsair and you're going to learn a LOT about all the bits and pieces that goes into controlling an aircraft.
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Here's the film of the fight versus the c202:
51D vs c202 (http://www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/pnp_scissors.ahf)
I honestly never would have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes, thats just fantastic. For the record, were you adjusting trim for that fight?
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Considering the OPS statement has truth, I would ask what plane develops one into a better, good and maybe even a great stick.
HL
109F4.
Enough maneuverability to kill most planes, slow enough that you can't run like a pansy in it but not extremely slow so that even a bomber outruns you, mediocre guns with limited ammo, forces you to aim and practice good gunnery. Crappy high speed handling means you literally cannot zoom through a furball at 500mph. If I see a F4 in the MA, most of the time, I know it's going to be a good fight.
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This is not a whine thread to start with, but I was wondering tonight why is there not a dedicated core of good P51 sticks? Its the most popular plane in the game hands down but I cannot honestly remember the last time I was impressed with a P51 that I ran into in the MA, the 2 I do remember Sunbat and Grmrpr that was years ago.
Could it be that one of its most used strengths 'running away real fast' is the reason no one consistently pushes this plane and therefore why they 'P51 pilots' continue to suck in it? I have flown it before and I think its got a lot of great attributes, maybe only lacking in the thrust department, so why do you all fly around like really bad AI in a really good plane??
No it just breeds sucky posts
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If you are talking about priority, I would tent to agree. Higher, faster, farther, seem to have been the first three priorities, with toughness as a fourth, and ordinance capability fith. Maneuverability seems to be no higher than sixth priority. that's not to say some planes didn't end up with good or even high maneuverability, it means that when they started out in design, and trade offs arose, maneuverability was sacrificed in favor of th eother attributes, to a point. There were probably minimum requirements in each catagory. But the target for the categories was set higher in the Altitude, Speed, Range, toughness, weapons, categories. I think all you are saying is no contract bid ever went out, that specified the "turn rate" or other maneuverability categories as "Best". I do believe that did change with the F-15, where maneuverability (lots of ways to define that) wsa to be "Best in class"
But I would love to hear if another plane was targetted as such. Perhaps the F8F? or F-86? :salute
That's largely true of all the USAAF P series aircraft as, for the most part, they had to travel long distances in bomber escort roles deep over enemy territory.
The Navy had much different requirements. Their primary opponent was the Japanese Zero, not the faster sleeker 109's and 190's on the Western front. Their range and altitude requirements were completely different.
As evidence of this you need look no further than the extensive use of sleek, aerodynamic in-line engines in the P series vs radials in the F series with the Jug being the big exception to that rule.
As the war progressed all countries transitioned from manouverability toward speed. The German 109 series is a prime example of this. The USN was no exception moving from the early F4F's to the F4U's but their greatest success came with the F6F, hardly a speed burner in comparison to it's US peers at the time.
For the USN I'd say toughness was the primary attribute. Range wasn't initially important as they weren't resticted to land based operations. Ord wasn't initially important as most of their bomber force was carrier based attack type aircraft although that and speed became more important through the course of the war. Because of the dive bombing of ships vs heavy bomber escort alt wasn't important and when it became important P-51's and P-47's were brought in to fill that role. That leaves the ability to get off of and onto a carrier deck, the ability to engage the Japanese and the ability to absorbe damage and get home.
It's interesting because the US was involved in two completely different wars with completely different requirements and when you're generalizing about US aircraft design at the time I think it's an important distinction, one that Riply failed to make when I first countered his generalization and one that you've also failed to make.
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Range wasn't initially important as they weren't resticted to land based operations.
Wait, what?
You're launching from an aircraft carrier, a tiny little speck in the middle of the ocean, and looking for ANOTHER aircraft carrier, a tiny little speck in the middle of the ocean. Carriers move, so by the time you've spotted her and your strike is in the air, at BEST you have a ballpark guess of where she is, which means you have to find her again. Considering flight times, that's QUITE a bit of ocean she might have moved into. Oh, not to mention the closer you have to get to launch your strike, the greater the chance an enemy scout will find you, as well.
Range was a HUGE consideration for naval aircraft. One of the reasons the F4F-4 was less popular than the -3 was because they removed some of its fuel capacity to add the wing folding mechanisms, and a large number of aircraft were lost when they simply ran out of gas. Especially when the commander took a chance of launching an extreme-range strike.
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I honestly never would have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes, thats just fantastic. For the record, were you adjusting trim for that fight?
Most likely, yes. I fight with Manual Trim, and adjust as necessary. I'll sometimes quickly click Combat Trim on then off to re-trim the plane at a certain speed, but I have Elevator Trim and Aileron Trim mapped to a 4-way hat on my stick.
I find that if I forget to turn off Combat Trim when I'm starting to turnfight somebody, no matter what plane I'm in, I'll end up going into a spin when trying to jostle for position, cut a corner, or whatnot. Without fail, I can hit the Combat Trim button and get the message, "Combat Trim Off" ...
That's just me though. Lots of guys can move their planes really well with Combat Trim turned on.
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That's largely true of all the USAAF P series aircraft as, for the most part, they had to travel long distances in bomber escort roles deep over enemy territory.
The Navy had much different requirements. Their primary opponent was the Japanese Zero, not the faster sleeker 109's and 190's on the Western front. Their range and altitude requirements were completely different.
As evidence of this you need look no further than the extensive use of sleek, aerodynamic in-line engines in the P series vs radials in the F series with the Jug being the big exception to that rule.
As the war progressed all countries transitioned from manouverability toward speed. The German 109 series is a prime example of this. The USN was no exception moving from the early F4F's to the F4U's but their greatest success came with the F6F, hardly a speed burner in comparison to it's US peers at the time.
For the USN I'd say toughness was the primary attribute. Range wasn't initially important as they weren't resticted to land based operations. Ord wasn't initially important as most of their bomber force was carrier based attack type aircraft although that and speed became more important through the course of the war. Because of the dive bombing of ships vs heavy bomber escort alt wasn't important and when it became important P-51's and P-47's were brought in to fill that role. That leaves the ability to get off of and onto a carrier deck, the ability to engage the Japanese and the ability to absorbe damage and get home.
It's interesting because the US was involved in two completely different wars with completely different requirements and when you're generalizing about US aircraft design at the time I think it's an important distinction, one that Riply failed to make when I first countered his generalization and one that you've also failed to make.
But according to your rebuttal my generalization is still correct. Yes, the navy had a problem fighting the zeroes because they outclassed the f4f's. They were slower, no where near as maneuverable, but they were, as you said, very tough.
As Saxman said, range was extremely important as the ocean is vast, and the Zero outclassed the f4f in that category as well. As a matter of fact, the Zero was ahead of its time as far as range is concerned, as they could fly escort missions for longer distances than any other plane of the war until the 51D made an appearance, their longest escort mission being from Rabaul to Guadalcanal, which was a longer mission than the P51D ever did escorting bombers from Britain to Germany. I guess my point about that is range was extremely important, even more so than in the European theatre.
The P38 Was highly effective against the Japanese, credited for shooting down over 1800 Japanese aircraft, but not because it could turn with them, because it couldn't, but because it was faster, tougher, and it outgunned them.
Then comes the F6F. In the Japanese's first engagements with the F6F, they mistook the plane for the F4F, which was usually a lethal mistake for the pilot making that error because the F6F had WAY more Horsepower than the F4F, and because of that they were faster and accelerated much better. While the F4F lacked speed over the Zero, the F6F greatly exceeded the Zero's top speed. However, when it came to a turn fight, the Zero still had the advantage, and any pilot attempting to turn circles with a Zero found that the Zero would eventually find his way to their 6.
While the F6F may have been a very maneuverable plane, it was not BUILT to be the most maneuverable plane in the pacific, it was built to be the FASTEST and TOUGHEST. So I am sorry, you say I was generalizing about American aircraft engineering, and I was, but I respectfully disagree with your post.
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Most likely, yes. I fight with Manual Trim, and adjust as necessary. I'll sometimes quickly click Combat Trim on then off to re-trim the plane at a certain speed, but I have Elevator Trim and Aileron Trim mapped to a 4-way hat on my stick.
I find that if I forget to turn off Combat Trim when I'm starting to turnfight somebody, no matter what plane I'm in, I'll end up going into a spin when trying to jostle for position, cut a corner, or whatnot. Without fail, I can hit the Combat Trim button and get the message, "Combat Trim Off" ...
That's just me though. Lots of guys can move their planes really well with Combat Trim turned on.
Mother of god... THE HAT.
Ive been wondering what to use it for since I have a trackIR and don't need it. I cant believe I never thought of mapping TRIM to it.
watch out MA, I'm about to get even more aggressive trying to teach myself how to use trim properly ;)
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lol
I use the 8-way hat for my views, so it's the 4-way hat for the trim. At one point, I had rudder trim enabled as well, but I hardly used it. My primary trimming is elevator trim.
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Wow, no rudder trim? Rudder is probably the most important thing to get trimmed properly since yaw will really mess with your aim.
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Wow, no rudder trim? Rudder is probably the most important thing to get trimmed properly since yaw will really mess with your aim.
I hear you, but, I find that I'm more comfortable using my feet for small adjustments.
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NO, P51s do not breed sucky pilots(players) ....... the hordes and Lil Generals are to blame for sucky pilots ( players )
to qualify my statement, I point you towards WldThing, the 412th Bronco Mustangs squad ( Midnight, dtango, SkateSr, etc... ), Damned Fool & Damned Dano, Stang, Flyboy and several others who could throw their cartoon P51 planes around quiet well.......
TC
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While the F6F may have been a very maneuverable plane, it was not BUILT to be the most maneuverable plane in the pacific, it was built to be the FASTEST and TOUGHEST. So I am sorry, you say I was generalizing about American aircraft engineering, and I was, but I respectfully disagree with your post.
But it was designed to be maneuverable. As I understood your original point, you believed that no American aircraft was deliberately designed with maneuverability in mind.
- oldman
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I wouldn't call 51 pilots sucky, I call them "one trick ponies". They are the one pass haul *** poster children. If they stay in their precious ponies, then things are ok. If eny kicks them out, the log... To get them to fly a spit is impossible. They don't know how to fly them, and will lose quickly because they don't have any fighting skills. They are always on the offensive, so they don't learn defensive moves.
I could name others, but wouldn't like the back lash.
Steve was always a good P-51 stick, at least from my memory. Haven't seen him around in awhile though.
I disagree. If (and that's a big IF) I could catch Steve, I sent him to the tower every time. Normally I would see him, then he would extend post haste to the ack, or friendly's. He was a challenge to catch, but once caught, it was noob easy.
Steve's claim to fame was picking and BNZ'ing. He got me far more than I got him, but he was a pro at the 450mph snap shot and zoom back to his perch. He played the "I have to live" game well. It's not my game, but it made him happy. Of course he isn't around anymore, so that may speak to how exciting it is to fly like that.
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The game puts all new pilots into the P51D to start. Any time you run into a P51, chances are, the guy is in the game for the first time. I was sucky the first time in a P51.
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But it was designed to be maneuverable. As I understood your original point, you believed that no American aircraft was deliberately designed with maneuverability in mind.
- oldman
I did have a post here, but at risk of overstepping my general knowledge of avionics I will leave it at the fact that we just seem to have a different view on the F6F.
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But it was designed to be maneuverable. As I understood your original point, you believed that no American aircraft was deliberately designed with maneuverability in mind.
- oldman
The brewster was extremely manouverable - at least untill the Navy attached 50% more weight to it.
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The brewster was extremely manouverable - at least untill the Navy attached 50% more weight to it.
Even the F4F is a VERY maneuverable aircraft. The problem is that the Wildcat had to face the Zero.
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I wouldn't call 51 pilots sucky, I call them "one trick ponies". They are the one pass haul *** poster children. If they stay in their precious ponies, then things are ok. If eny kicks them out, the log... To get them to fly a spit is impossible. They don't know how to fly them, and will lose quickly because they don't have any fighting skills. They are always on the offensive, so they don't learn defensive moves.
I could name others, but wouldn't like the back lash.
I disagree. If (and that's a big IF) I could catch Steve, I sent him to the tower every time. Normally I would see him, then he would extend post haste to the ack, or friendly's. He was a challenge to catch, but once caught, it was noob easy.
Steve's claim to fame was picking and BNZ'ing. He got me far more than I got him, but he was a pro at the 450mph snap shot and zoom back to his perch. He played the "I have to live" game well. It's not my game, but it made him happy. Of course he isn't around anymore, so that may speak to how exciting it is to fly like that.
Its easy to generalize and I suppose most 51 pilots fall under that stereotype, but there are a few Pony guys that would have absolutely no trouble getting into other planes and handing you your ass.
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NO, P51s do not breed sucky pilots(players) ....... the hordes and Lil Generals are to blame for sucky pilots ( players )
to qualify my statement, I point you towards WldThing, the 412th Bronco Mustangs squad ( Midnight, dtango, SkateSr, etc... ), Damned Fool & Damned Dano, Stang, Flyboy and several others who could throw their cartoon P51 planes around quiet well.......
TC
Shhhhhhhhhhh
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Shhhhhhhhhhh
:rofl :rofl
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P-51s should never breed it could lead to birth defects.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/P-82_Twin_Mustang.jpg/800px-P-82_Twin_Mustang.jpg)
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P-51s should never breed it could lead to birth defects.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/P-82_Twin_Mustang.jpg/800px-P-82_Twin_Mustang.jpg)
That was a hard one to fly,left guy had left aileron and left rudder and so on for the right pilot.
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FINALLY I know why I suck in AH!! No more Pony for me. Hello Spit 16!!!
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That was a hard one to fly,left guy had left aileron and left rudder and so on for the right pilot.
Ark ark, humor.
-oldman
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A lot of interesting replies here and a good read on people's views, p51s are like yappy dogs biting your ankle when your backs turned then run away yelping anytime you turn after them and hover on the fringes until your backs turned again :D Heres some footage of a P51 in Aces High to back up that statement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B72fbXDQ7Lg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B72fbXDQ7Lg)
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A lot of interesting replies here and a good read on people's views, p51s are like yappy dogs biting your ankle when your backs turned then run away yelping anytime you turn after them and hover on the fringes until your backs turned again :D Heres some footage of a P51 in Aces High to back up that statement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B72fbXDQ7Lg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B72fbXDQ7Lg)
:lol you a funny guy
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A lot of interesting replies here and a good read on people's views, p51s are like yappy dogs biting your ankle when your backs turned then run away yelping anytime you turn after them and hover on the fringes until your backs turned again :D Heres some footage of a P51 in Aces High to back up that statement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B72fbXDQ7Lg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B72fbXDQ7Lg)
Funny the other night when that La blew you up,i might have been able to get him before he got you instead of after, if you did not make fun of my pony.Good luck out there knowing all us p51 flyers are now looking out for you. :D
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I'll turn/outturn most aircraft at cornering speed in a 51B... but once you've continued the turn and exceeded that threshold, you become a considerably easy target. While it takes on average 3-5 snapshot busts to down most luftwaffe aircraft in a Bravo, it usually only takes them half of one to quickly turn you in to a 'sucky pilot'.
3-5 snapshots on an aircraft already engaged with your entire squadron 10k below your perch* :devil
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I hope to see Pervert again tonite :joystick: :neener:
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IMO you must have better situational awareness in the P51 as modeled in the game. You cannot outrun things where you usually engage them - on the deck the Dora, K4, LA7 and Spit16 will out accellerate, climb, and run you. All are very common. You have to know when it is time to disengage - which may mean rolling off of a target rather than fighting their fight and loosing the turn fight, ie bleeding so much that you cannot then extend if you need to when his buddies show up.
The P51 is a tough plane to fly. It requires you to increase your SA not just of what is going on around you but the state of your aircraft as well because you have to plan ahead. You also cannot just yank the stick, you must finesse your stick, throttle, flaps, and rudder. On top of that the 50s require more than a brief tap on the shoulder to end the fight.
well stated Paladin :cheers:
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(http://www.rockjem.com/images/characters/22.jpg)
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Yeah, pony pilots don't suck some of them that is , others will try to turn in a fight with rods and wi'll get shot full of holes. I''ve shot down many ponies while I'm in a 109 and they immeadiatly open the throttle and try to out run me but I'll usually get them as they throttle up.
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Funny the other night when that La blew you up,i might have been able to get him before he got you instead of after, if you did not make fun of my pony.Good luck out there knowing all us p51 flyers are now looking out for you. :D
I need a 109 trainer that wants to spend some time in it with me. I have been spending time in it ,but i here of some really nice moves it can accomplish by some uber 109 sticks.I know all basic acm and so on...i NEED super 109 good training d: Ty guys.
:huh
p.s your threat is terrifying! I mean imagine what would happen if all I ran into was sucky P51 sticks and they worked together as a team to try and bring me down :D....wait a minute isn't this why I made this thread :rofl
I was intrigued by Pand's posting, I have no idea what it meant or who it was
(http://www.rockjem.com/images/characters/22.jpg)
By looking at the website the picture came from it led me on a dark journey to a fansite for the 1980s girls TV series Jem and the Holograms!! oh dear :eek:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88/Jem_logo.jpg)
The website has this to say about it
McDuffy
A really rude pilot in his mid 60's, who owns a big airplane, a Douglas Dakota DC3 that says "McDuffy Airlines". He makes fun of Rio's smaller plane. For 50 dollars he helps the student, Switch, jump parachute into a party of club Cloud 9 uninvited. Then he helps Ronald Kyte by letting him use his plane as a studio where the Misfits unknowingly jam the KJEM radiosignal with their own music.
Dunno who that is aimed at but your in depth knowledge of the fictional teenage girls cartoon series Jem and the holograms disturbs me greatly Pand :old:
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Dunno who that is aimed at but your in depth knowledge of the fictional teenage girls cartoon series Jem and the holograms disturbs me greatly Pand :old:
Wow you have too much time on your hands :rofl
I just google searched images for 'rude pilot' and grabbed one that looked ridiculous!
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Wow you have too much time on your hands :rofl
I just google searched images for 'rude pilot' and grabbed one that looked ridiculous!
Yeah sure ya did.....Jem ;)
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
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:huh
p.s your threat is terrifying! I mean imagine what would happen if all I ran into was sucky P51 sticks and they worked together as a team to try and bring me down :D....wait a minute isn't this why I made this thread :rofl
You missed the point....But i seen all i need from you, watching that limp wristed LA pawn you then i got to kill him and his bud,Your opinion is noted.And no clue why you posted me wanting to learn the 109..that's a kick butt plane. :salute
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Pand is right about one thing at the moment I have to much time on my hands right now Sunka and you have edited that post 4 times already in about ten minutes :D if you keep deleting parts there will be nothing left, the angry first post was the best one :old:
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(http://www.trulygraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/whats-going-on-in-this-thread.jpg)
Original GIF didn't work.....this will do I suppose
:noid
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Pand is right about one thing at the moment I have to much time on my hands right now Sunka and you have edited that post 4 times already in about ten minutes :D if you keep deleting parts there will be nothing left, the angry first post was the best one :old:
lol Nice to know you keep such a close eye on your post,i laughed you noticed :aok.And no no i came off sounding way to angry when i read it back..and then again ..and then again :D I don't usually let troll threads get to me ... :lol :cheers:
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(http://www.trulygraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/whats-going-on-in-this-thread.jpg)
Original GIF didn't work.....this will do I suppose
:noid
Thank gawd somthing worth reading in this!Or look at or w/e .........KITTY!!!!!!!!!! :x
Okay cute kitty gif did it ,i agree all 51 sticks suck!!! except only if who fly's one, then..uber!
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I would say overall there are more aggressive pony pilots than there are 190D pilots.
It isn't the plane that makes someone timid just the pilot.
I would say it's a combination. I feel more self confident in for example a La7 than in a P47 :)
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I judge sticks on a different scale.
Video game pilots = suck unless of course in real life they have ever gotten a 15 hour flight off of a winch launch or 2k tow.
Posting look at me threads = reset to suckage.
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I am the perfect gentleman! You all suck!!
lol
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Real life pilots suck too but Debrody is so far down the suckage pipe he can never climb out. :devil
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Real life pilots suck too but Debrody is so far down the suckage pipe he can never climb out. :devil
:rofl
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I would say it's a combination. I feel more self confident in for example a La7 than in a P47 :)
Well, in an La7 you fight with confidence because you know that when things go bad you can run away. In a P47 you attack with confidence when you have the advantage. When not, you have no choice except fight like a wounded animal. End result, P47 makes you fight more and run less. P40 makes you fight even more. With a P39 one does not expect to land anyway, so all he can do is fight fight fight, then when out of bullets ram the enemy, then bail out and shoot them down with your 45, then taunt them on ch200 till they auger while typing - that is a fighter's spirit!
Be a fighter, fly mid-war planes and talk smack on ch200!
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I judge sticks on a different scale.
Video game pilots = suck unless of course in real life they have ever gotten a 15 hour flight off of a winch launch or 2k tow.
While we are judging by a different scale, why not go all out? We all suck, unless of course in real life we've ever had to constantly have our head on a swivel, or manually trim a real ww2 bird while live rounds fill the air fired by combat tested aces determined to kill you......... but I kind of thought we were on the boards of a GAME where we all get to live vicariously through their exploits? :aok
:salute
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Well, in an La7 you fight with confidence because you know that when things go bad you can run away. In a P47 you attack with confidence when you have the advantage. When not, you have no choice except fight like a wounded animal. End result, P47 makes you fight more and run less. P40 makes you fight even more. With a P39 one does not expect to land anyway, so all he can do is fight fight fight, then when out of bullets ram the enemy, then bail out and shoot them down with your 45, then taunt them on ch200 till they auger while typing - that is a fighter's spirit!
Be a fighter, fly mid-war planes and talk smack on ch200!
:aok :rofl
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I judge sticks on a different scale.
Video game pilots = suck unless of course in real life they have ever gotten a 15 hour flight off of a winch launch or 2k tow.
Posting look at me threads = reset to suckage.
Would be more impressed someone actually owned a P51 mustang or flew a jet, then they would definitely would not suck imo :joystick:
Have you any pictures of flying these gliders? Feels like all has been said that has to be said on the P51 maybe we could end the thread in a nice way looking at your glider snaps :)
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While we are judging by a different scale, why not go all out? We all suck, unless of course in real life we've ever had to constantly have our head on a swivel, or manually trim a real ww2 bird while live rounds fill the air fired by combat tested aces determined to kill you......... but I kind of thought we were on the boards of a GAME where we all get to live vicariously through their exploits? :aok
hehe. . . Ever flown in competition? Im thinking not:
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/ThermalHorde_zpsdd6ab2a9.jpg)
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Cool pic which glider are you in?
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Cool pic which glider are you in?
what I was wonderin :rofl
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You boys dont get out much huh? That is a picture from the World Gliding Championships (as close to the Olympics as you can get). I have lots of pictures from the WGC in 2010 at Szeged Hungary. We also spent two days at the event when it was in Texas this year. Next year it will be in Argentina but because Argentina is southern hemisphere it will be held in January about thirty days from now.
Gliding is easy. If you can pass the Flight Exam and can see well enough to look out for other airplanes you can fly gliders. Its also cheap. Outside of the more expensive clubs you can learn gliders for about $37/hr (thats a healthy distribution of the SSA membership of course). Since the new pilot requirements the ranks of glider pilots have swollen so it might be difficult to get a flight scheduled depending on where you live.
Both of you should give it a try. :salute
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hehe. . . Ever flown in competition? Im thinking not:
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/ThermalHorde_zpsdd6ab2a9.jpg)
Ever flown a ww2 bird in combat? I'm thinking not. But please by all means, do continue to regale us with your heroic, riveting accounts of glider greatness. I'm sure we all wait with bated breath and the more you pat yourself on the back I'm sure we will eventually subordinate ourselves to your superior skill set.
Got condescension?
:salute Nishizwa
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http://youtu.be/hVrLloM1Al8
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Ever flown a ww2 bird in combat? I'm thinking not. But please by all means, do continue to regale us with your heroic, riveting accounts of glider greatness. I'm sure we all wait with bated breath and the more you pat yourself on the back I'm sure we will eventually subordinate ourselves to your superior skill set.
I was just pointing out that there are more avenues to develop SA than combat. Glider flying is very dangerous. You can be clever and condescending all you want the fact is you have to be prepared to hit the silk when the time comes. No one is going to shoot at you but the danger of collision is ever-present.
I know you are comfortable in your office chair and playing AH and thinking your awesome in your BBS posts and your cartoon ACM. Pervert in his post has made an attempt to put down an entire group of people that like to fly one single aircraft. It makes him look like a ballerina is all Im saying. I think you just joined him.
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You can be clever and condescending all you want.......
Me? :headscratch: It's your arrogant condescension that motivated my reply in the first place. Gems such as this:
Video game pilots = suck unless of course in real life they have ever gotten a 15 hour flight off of a winch launch or 2k tow. , Ever flown in competition? I'm thinking not: , You boys dont get out much huh? , I know you are comfortable in your office chair and playing AH and thinking your awesome in your BBS posts and your cartoon ACM.
All translated to say: Until you've flown a glider in competition like ME, your opinions about this virtual aerial combat GAME are not worthy of being heard, and any skills you might have developed in this GAME can't begin to compare with my real life lessons.
I called BS because your real life lessons don't begin to compare with what the real pilots of ww2 had to face.
Got condescension?
:salute
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that pic with all those Gliders certainly looked dangerous.....and fun.
why is it that the most fun we get...... is when we are putting our selves in harms way?
I think it is because when we are close to death we feel the most alive.
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that pic with all those Gliders certainly looked dangerous.....and fun.
gotta be fake.
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gotta be fake.
I wouldn't know honestly....I try to take people at their word....a downfall I know..... :frown:
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Maneuverability? Ha! All I need is my DG a lot of sun a little wind and I will stay airborne sailing all day... True Soaring aircraft are fully aerobatic and the more complex they are the more understanding of flight you may achieve. :aok
Wow you own one of these?? :O :O How much did that cost??????, think it would be well out of my budget I cannot even afford a new puter let alone own a glider :cry Obviously you chose this as your handle because you own one :old:
http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/index.php?id=dg1000-herausforderer-e
(http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/uploads/RTEmagicC_665be751dc.jpg.jpg)
Did you compete at the glider world championships??
Any pics or vids, this could be cool!
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51s don't breed sucky pilots. They breed lazy pilots.
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Its a look at me post, but here's pretty much the best example I can give of pushing the 51 beyond its comfort zone.
I dont think ive ever heard of the F4U pilot, but regardless it was a fun fight. He should have had me a few times, but I'll chalk that up to unpredictable defensive flying :)
This is why I love flying the 51. People dont expect such aggressive fighting from them, but when it happens, it makes for magical videos.
Fight starts around 11:11.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6C370AvgKAmUmd5SlpvS00yYUE
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51s don't breed sucky pilots. They breed lazy pilots.
Ha! you should of seen me fighting Dodger's 202 the other night. One fight I had to disengage because I was just plumb tuckered out :lol
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HELLO GUYS, just asking if one of those good p51-D People out there might have some time to do a walk through video,like the ones on the 109's and zeros ive seen on you tube. im no ace by any means however,im always looking to learn from the upper crust types who have air time in said plane. i dont mind being shot down in a fight but i also like to learn what im doing wrong in that plane,no fun if your not learning ! thanks
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HELLO GUYS, just asking if one of those good p51-D People out there might have some time to do a walk through video,like the ones on the 109's and zeros ive seen on you tube. im no ace by any means however,im always looking to learn from the upper crust types who have air time in said plane. i dont mind being shot down in a fight but i also like to learn what im doing wrong in that plane,no fun if your not learning ! thanks
You should look up BatfinkV in game...he's a trainer...he'd be happy to help you as any of the trainers would I'm sure.
Lots of good Pony drivers in game...some have been mentioned in this thread...see if you can fly with them and theyll teach you as well...of make you a target and you can try to learn from that LOL
Good luck
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HELLO GUYS, just asking if one of those good p51-D People out there might have some time to do a walk through video,like the ones on the 109's and zeros ive seen on you tube. im no ace by any means however,im always looking to learn from the upper crust types who have air time in said plane. i dont mind being shot down in a fight but i also like to learn what im doing wrong in that plane,no fun if your not learning ! thanks
I dont know of any really great films off hand, but here is one I made the other night. Not really a walkthrough, but kind of a demonstration instead. I am way too lazy to capture it and upload to youtube, but viewing it in the ahfilm viewer is better anyway. Make sure you check the "use recorded views" option so you can see whats going on. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v3eyp8kyqcd9k0v/dbZRr-aJ4m (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v3eyp8kyqcd9k0v/dbZRr-aJ4m)
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I dont know of any really great films off hand, but here is one I made the other night. Not really a walkthrough, but kind of a demonstration instead. I am way too lazy to capture it and upload to youtube, but viewing it in the ahfilm viewer is better anyway. Make sure you check the "use recorded views" option so you can see whats going on. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v3eyp8kyqcd9k0v/dbZRr-aJ4m (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v3eyp8kyqcd9k0v/dbZRr-aJ4m)
I can't watch the film at the moment, or comment on it, but one thing that may help after watching with the recorded views is to watch it again from an external view and have the 'Trails' checked, so you can see the flight paths of the planes.
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BigR thanks for recording your flight,that was a great job you did,im learning what guys have been talking about,when you get to the Apex of the climb and have bled your E to use flaps to get nose over.some day i hope to fly that smooth in the pony thanks again :aok