Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wpeters on March 24, 2015, 07:30:11 AM
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A A-320 of Germanwings is believed to went down in the apps. All on board(148 souls) are believed to be dead.
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That's just sad . Seems like a lot of planes have been going down lately .
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blessed be their souls
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Not good. Now they are saying there was no word from anyone on board since it took off.
Nothing. No emergency beacon, no radio transmissions, no cell phone calls. The odds of that happening at cruising altitude due to mechanical is low I believe. Whatever it was it was catastrophic. Sad end for these people. :pray
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Not good. Now they are saying there was no word from anyone on board since it took off.
Nothing. No emergency beacon, no radio transmissions, no cell phone calls. The odds of that happening at cruising altitude due to mechanical is low I believe. Whatever it was it was catastrophic. Sad end for these people. :pray
Sounds a little like Helios Airways Flight 522. Yeah, I found that one trying to look up another one.
I recall a similar incident that happened here in the US some years ago, where a private jet crashed. In this case, there was a valve in the engine that was locked "open", which after it climbed to 20k, caused the entire crew and passengers, to pass out. Tried to look up the details of this flight, but haven't been lucky. Ran into Flight 522.
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Sounds a little like Helios Airways Flight 522. Yeah, I found that one trying to look up another one.
I recall a similar incident that happened here in the US some years ago, where a private jet crashed. In this case, there was a valve in the engine that was locked "open", which after it climbed to 20k, caused the entire crew and passengers, to pass out. Tried to look up the details of this flight, but haven't been lucky. Ran into Flight 522.
I believe that was the crash that killed pro golfer Payne Stewart
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Sounds a little like Helios Airways Flight 522. Yeah, I found that one trying to look up another one.
I recall a similar incident that happened here in the US some years ago, where a private jet crashed. In this case, there was a valve in the engine that was locked "open", which after it climbed to 20k, caused the entire crew and passengers, to pass out. Tried to look up the details of this flight, but haven't been lucky. Ran into Flight 522.
I believe that was the crash that killed pro golfer Payne Stewart
It was the Payne Stewart accident as it became known in the industry and it was on a charter flight of a Lear Jet. The valve, didn't get "locked open", it was a manual valve on the O2 bottle that was missed on the walk around inspection and left in the closed position. As the aircraft climbed to cruise level, everyone was overcome from a lack of O2.
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It was the Payne Stewart accident as it became known in the industry and it was on a charter flight of a Lear Jet. The valve, didn't get "locked open", it was a manual valve on the O2 bottle that was missed on the walk around inspection and left in the closed position. As the aircraft climbed to cruise level, everyone was overcome from a lack of O2.
Ah, thank you. I couldn't remember the details of it clearly. :aok
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"Some Germanwings pilots and cabin crew have refused to fly following the carrier's unexplained crash in the French Alps, the airline confirmed Wednesday.
Germanwings said there were "occasional flight disruptions" within its network due to "crew members who decided not to operate aircraft" following the crash of Flight 4U9525 with 150 people aboard en route to Dusseldorf, Germany."
I'm wondering what they suspect that we don't know. Its a little surprising that Germanwings doesn't have the depth of staff that so many additional flights needed to be canceled. That is a little unusual.
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I'm wondering if it was frozen AOA sensors, I believe a Spanish owned A321 just went thru an un commanded desent a few months ago. And (correct me if I'm wrong) but didn't that Air France flight (A330) that crashed into the Atlantic have issues with its speed sensors due to a possible frozen pitot tube?
Regardless, very sad. I'm sure they will know the cause once all the data is reviewed.
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I'm wondering if it was frozen AOA sensors, I believe a Spanish owned A321 just went thru an un commanded desent a few months ago. And (correct me if I'm wrong) but didn't that Air France flight (A330) that crashed into the Atlantic have issues with its speed sensors due to a possible frozen pitot tube?
Regardless, very sad. I'm sure they will know the cause once all the data is reviewed.
They are talking about a 50-60 knot speed decrease in climb out 15 minutes before the emergency call.
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"Some Germanwings pilots and cabin crew have refused to fly following the carrier's unexplained crash in the French Alps, the airline confirmed Wednesday.
Germanwings said there were "occasional flight disruptions" within its network due to "crew members who decided not to operate aircraft" following the crash of Flight 4U9525 with 150 people aboard en route to Dusseldorf, Germany."
I'm wondering what they suspect that we don't know. Its a little surprising that Germanwings doesn't have the depth of staff that so many additional flights needed to be canceled. That is a little unusual.
Germanwings is a budget airliner owned by Lufthansa. They probably operate on skeleton crew.
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Speed and alt chart. Looks like a decent on auto pilot. my feeling is that the pilots were incapacitated and and set the auto pilot on 6000 (or something like that) before they passed out. Decompression migth be the cause. ATC didnt get any contact during decend.
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/mcs/media/images/81868000/png/_81868170_flight.png)
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Speed and alt chart. Looks like a decent on auto pilot. my feeling is that the pilots were incapacitated and and set the auto pilot on 6000 (or something like that) before they passed out. Decompression migth be the cause. ATC didnt get any contact during decend.
That's been my assumption, too.
- oldman
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Breaking: NY Times reporting pilot was locked out of cockpit.
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It was the Payne Stewart accident as it became known in the industry and it was on a charter flight of a Lear Jet. The valve, didn't get "locked open", it was a manual valve on the O2 bottle that was missed on the walk around inspection and left in the closed position. As the aircraft climbed to cruise level, everyone was overcome from a lack of O2.
Not exactly Sir. Learjets do not use O2 bottle for pressurization, they use bleed air off the engine compressors made suitable for breathing via one or more air conditioning Pack. They carry a small amount of emergency O2 for the pilots. Typically enough to cover an emergency decent or to fight an on-board fire.
Learjet model 35, registration N47BA had according to the NTSB been "snagged" for pressurization issues prior to the day of the accident but had been rectified.
This is an exact quote from the NTSB accident report:
The probable cause of this accident was incapacitation of the flight crew members as a result of their failure to receive supplemental oxygen following a loss of cabin pressurization, for undetermined reasons.
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Pressurization issue aside, the pilots couldn't get oxygen through their masks because the manual valve on the bottle was closed at the bottle which is inaccessible in flight.
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im curious why germanwings could not fly over French airspace direct to dusseldorf.
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Paging Egypt Air.........
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And (correct me if I'm wrong) but didn't that Air France flight (A330) that crashed into the Atlantic have issues with its speed sensors due to a possible frozen pitot tube?
Regardless, very sad. I'm sure they will know the cause once all the data is reviewed.
I don't remember if they ever found the flight recorders. But investigators still pretty much figured out what went on from the ACARS data.
They flew into a massive storm cell, supercooled droplets froze up all 3 pitot tubes, without airspeed data the autopilot and autothrottle system shut off, not to mention the EICAS starts throwing all kinds of warnings and alarms at the crew which probably overwhelmed them. SOP for no airspeed data was to apply a certain power and pitch setting (I wanna say 85% and 5° nose up, but I don't remember) and just fly straight and level till airspeed data comes back, for whatever reason the crew failed to do so, instead they climbed it into a stall and for whatever reason kept pulling instead of pushing and flew the stall all the way to the ocean.
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Paging Egypt Air.........
When I heard "Pilot was locked out" that's the first thing I thought of as well.
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Anyone know if there are procedures for having at least two people in the cockpit at any time? Seems to me that leaving only one crew member in the cockpit with a door that is reenforced and cannot be opened from the outside is a very obvious flaw, so I cannot be the first one to point it out. One pilot steps out to take a leak, the other pilot has a heart attack, food poisoning, commits suicide etc.
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Anyone know if there are procedures for having at least two people in the cockpit at any time? Seems to me that leaving only one crew member in the cockpit with a door that is reenforced and cannot be opened from the outside is a very obvious flaw, so I cannot be the first one to point it out. One pilot steps out to take a leak, the other pilot has a heart attack, food poisoning, commits suicide etc.
Usually the door can be opened from the outside with the proper code, unless the one left in the cockpit is taking active measures to prevent that
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See Rule #14
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See Rule #4
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Usually the door can be opened from the outside with the proper code, unless the one left in the cockpit is taking active measures to prevent that
This...^^^^^
Its looking like Murder/Suicide Im afraid. If the pilot in the cockpit was incapacitated the pilot on the outside would be able to access the cockpit. The guy inside had to be blocking it.
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See Rule #14
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #14
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BBC reporting that the Co-Pilot deliberately locked out the Captain, started the descent, was alive until impact.
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im curious why germanwings could not fly over French airspace direct to dusseldorf.
It's a budget airline. They choose the cheapest options for airspace and airfields. For example when you fly Ryanair etc. you may fly from some real small secondary airports because their charges are much lower than the main airport.
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Not exactly Sir. Learjets do not use O2 bottle for pressurization, they use bleed air off the engine compressors made suitable for breathing via one or more air conditioning Pack. They carry a small amount of emergency O2 for the pilots. Typically enough to cover an emergency decent or to fight an on-board fire.
Learjet model 35, registration N47BA had according to the NTSB been "snagged" for pressurization issues prior to the day of the accident but had been rectified.
This is an exact quote from the NTSB accident report:
The probable cause of this accident was incapacitation of the flight crew members as a result of their failure to receive supplemental oxygen following a loss of cabin pressurization, for undetermined reasons.
Your are correct, the supplemental oxygen bottle was the one that needed to be opened manually as part of the pre-flight. When they lost pressurization off the engine for what ever reason, they had no demand oxygen. Thanks for the info.
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BBC reporting that the Co-Pilot deliberately locked out the Captain, started the descent, was alive until impact.
Imagine that, why, just why? :frown:
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I wonder if the cockpit recorder recorded the co-pilot chanting the prayer of the dead. Looks like terrorism.
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They seems to deny that he was linked to any terrorist group.
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They seems to deny that he was linked to any terrorist group.
He killed a plane load of people and himself, sounds like terrorist to me.
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I wonder if the cockpit recorder recorded the co-pilot chanting the prayer of the dead. Looks like terrorism.
He isn't the first suicidal pilot nor would they be the first to go crazy in the cockpit for a myriad of reasons.
While it's possible I don't put a suicidal individual into the terrorist hat without some supporting evidence. Until then it's a selfish individual (the word I'd use would call him a potato or something) I'd think a terrorist would want to make a bigger splash, if you will. Crashing a jet in the middle of some mountains doesn't fit that agenda without some groups claiming responsibility right away and blowing their horn. Rolling in a 3000fpm descent and making your peace with whatever deity...I can see that.
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Perhaps its time to add a third person to the cockpit, armed.
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Depends on how u define "terrorist". But imo its about motive, if he did it for political reason, then its an act of terror, regardless of religion etc. If it was an act of psychic disorder then its not a terrorist act.
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Perhaps its time to add a third person to the cockpit, armed.
:O
Yeah and they can hire a flock of quiet birdmen to do the job too. Just need some stripes and a hat with scrambled eggs on it to remind you of the good ol days, right?
It's bad enough keeping frigging cameras out of the cockpit now you want some goon with a gun? NFW.
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:O
Yeah and they can hire a flock of quiet birdmen to do the job too. Just need some stripes and a hat with scrambled eggs on it to remind you of the good ol days, right?
It's bad enough keeping frigging cameras out of the cockpit now you want some goon with a gun? NFW.
I know a number of Air Marshals that are flying everyday in the US and on some international flights. Not asking for a goon, but if there had been a third guy in that cockpit do you think the result would have been the same?
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Paging Egypt Air.........
Sadly looks like your correct.
Just sad.
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With time and technology we can hopefully remove these irrational, emotional, fallible, sometimes suicidal stick monkeys from the cockpit altogether.
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I know a number of Air Marshals that are flying everyday in the US and on some international flights. Not asking for a goon, but if there had been a third guy in that cockpit do you think the result would have been the same?
And what prevent that guy from flipping out and kill the pilots?
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I know a number of Air Marshals that are flying everyday in the US and on some international flights. Not asking for a goon, but if there had been a third guy in that cockpit do you think the result would have been the same?
No, I don't think it would be different. I'm not going to discuss openly the FAMs or their operation but an FFDO is enough. Someone jumpseating all the time who is supposed to shoot you if you do something weird? What do they know about what's weird or not?
Bad idea not withstanding where are you going to find them? You're not able to staff every single flight.
There's a certain irony that these doors are meant to keep bad guys out of the cockpit. No thought given to what happens if they are in the cockpit already.
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Am I correct that in the US there are always two people in the cockpit? I have seen pilots leave the cockpit (after precautionary measures) to hit the head and each time a flight attendant enters the cockpit to take their place temporarily.
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With time and technology we can hopefully remove these irrational, emotional, fallible, sometimes suicidal stick monkeys from the cockpit altogether.
I think that with a little push this would already be achievable.
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Am I correct that in the US there are always two people in the cockpit? I have seen pilots leave the cockpit (after precautionary measures) to hit the head and each time a flight attendant enters the cockpit to take their place temporarily.
Yeah but whats a 130 lb girl going to do to stop a guy from going bonkers?
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Yeah but whats a 130 lb girl going to do to stop a guy from going bonkers?
Hopefully she could open the door.
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Yeah but whats a 130 lb girl going to do to stop a guy from going bonkers?
She could show her boobs to distract him. :ahand
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She could show her boobs to distract him. :ahand
Not all flight attendants are female these days.
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With time and technology we can hopefully remove these irrational, emotional, fallible, sometimes suicidal stick monkeys from the cockpit altogether.
LOL
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And what prevent that guy from flipping out and kill the pilots?
This. You have as much or more of a chance of getting a whacko in that cadre of watchers.
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Not all flight attendants are female these days.
Maybe not on the outside. Bottom line is if you have a Loon at the controls and he wants to take a dive into the dirt what is there to stop him? Very difficult I bet, even if you have a male Pro-wrestler in Loafers as a stew. I bet it only takes a few seconds to make the air craft unrecoverable, or, make the G-forces to high to even get to the door. We kinda saw this on 9/11 with the Jet the brave passengers forced into the dirt in PA.
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No, I don't think it would be different. I'm not going to discuss openly the FAMs or their operation but an FFDO is enough. Someone jumpseating all the time who is supposed to shoot you if you do something weird? What do they know about what's weird or not?
Bad idea not withstanding where are you going to find them? You're not able to staff every single flight.
There's a certain irony that these doors are meant to keep bad guys out of the cockpit. No thought given to what happens if they are in the cockpit already.
How about a third pilot working for the airlines. You honestly believe that flight would not have ended differently with a third person on that flight deck? There would have been a ton of guys that could have continued to fly had forced retirement not been 60 years of age.
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If thats true then unfortunately, the door safety system failed here. Something will change in the future for sure.
Its beyound me that nobody from the engineering team imagined/trained for such an extreme case.
The captains leave the cockpit and have absolutely no chance to enter it again? (not in 8min.)
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If thats true then unfortunately, the door safety system failed here. Something will change in the future for sure.
Its beyound me that nobody from the engineering team imagined/trained for such an extreme case.
The captains leave the cockpit and have absolutely no chance to enter it again? (not in 8min.)
From the news coverage: I understand that US regulations require 2 crew members in the cockpit at all times, European regulations no. The captain on the outside entered some kind of combination to open the door but was over ridden by the man in the cockpit, (some kind of time out delay.)
Every addition to a complex system brings with it new failure modes. It can be hard to anticipate what those will be and evaluating their probability is fraught.
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Not all flight attendants are female these days.
We were talking about a 130lb girl.
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Came here to see what you all thought about this. So far I've gathered that the pilot may have deliberately crashed the plane on purpose. He adjusted the course to 100 feet from 32K, then overrides the door lock so the captain cannot enter. Pilot only had about 625 hours of flying time -seems low for international flight but I don't know the regulations. There was no intention of this being a terrorist attack or any such thing. Pilot was quiet for 8 minutes as plane descended, while captain was beating on the door. IMO it was a mass murder/suicide.
Scaryyy scarryy tradgedy here. :(
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How about a third pilot working for the airlines. You honestly believe that flight would not have ended differently with a third person on that flight deck? There would have been a ton of guys that could have continued to fly had forced retirement not been 60 years of age.
I honestly believe that individual would have been successful in crashing the airplane if they really wanted to even with a third individual on that flight deck. It would've been in the ground or in water eventually regardless of jumpseat occupation.
Airlines can't fully staff their schedules now with 2 pilot crews. Where are they going to find a third?
Bunch of old guys with guns on jump seats isn't the answer to any problem I can think of.
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If thats true then unfortunately, the door safety system failed here. Something will change in the future for sure.
Its beyound me that nobody from the engineering team imagined/trained for such an extreme case.
The captains leave the cockpit and have absolutely no chance to enter it again? (not in 8min.)
As I understand it, some airlines require a member of the cabin crew to go into the cockpit if a pilot needs to go to the head.
Do not know which airlines or if it is enforced.
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I'm going to say this because it's an industrywide problem: As pilots were really encouraged to compartmentalize stuff and not get treatment for anything we have going on emotionally or mentally because of our friends, the FAA. Now if the consequences of getting treatment for whatever was going on inside our heads was not so punitive may be there would not be so many crazy pilots floating around.
My 2 cents
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"A Spiegel reporter, Matthias Gebauer, is tweeting that friends of Lubitz said he had burnout or depression in 2009 and had to take time out from his pilot training. During the Lufthansa press conference there were questions as to why Lubitz interrupted his training, but there were no definitive answers.
— Matthias Gebauer (@gebauerspon) March 26, 2015
freunde von #4U9525 co-pilot berichten, andreas lubitz habe 2009 auszeit von flugausbildung wg burnout-syndrom oder depression genommen"
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I'm going to say this because it's an industrywide problem: As pilots were really encouraged to compartmentalize stuff and not get treatment for anything we have going on emotionally or mentally because of our friends, the FAA. Now if the consequences of getting treatment for whatever was going on inside our heads was not so punitive may be there would not be so many crazy pilots floating around.
My 2 cents
going back on what Wolfala Said. Here is another description regarding mental health by the FAA.
If you really want to lay blame on someone and something for letting this happen lets go after the regulatory agencies specifically the FAA. Why? Because they create a culture where anyone with any mental health problem WILL not be allowed to fly. You may ask whats the big deal about that? The thing is when you're a professional pilot you train for years and spend tons of money. You basically dedicate your life to the profession. Some people live with mental health problems for the early part of their lives only to have them really surface as they get older. The problem is that when it's discovered in this profession you may be heavily committed in it and unable to just stop.
For example if pete age 40 is a 737 captain at major airline X he's probably making 200k a year. He has a house 2 cars a nice family. But Pete is sad, what can pete do? Well if you were in non-aviation you would go to the doctor and get checked out and get the help you need. Not in aviation... If pete went to the doctor and was diagnosed with depression he wouldn't be allowed to fly anymore. Now his 200k a year income is gone. The faa would deny his medical for years. So now what? Well Pete would have to get a job in something else while also fighting the faa to get his medical back. At age 40 with only aviation it would be near impossible to get a job making 200k again. So he would at best get a 50k entry level position since other than aviation he has no other marketable skills. It would most likely end up causing much more stress since now his house, cars, and marriage would all be in danger. I've been told those anti-depressants don't really cure you and in most cases make things worse. So now pete is on those making pills, making 75% less money, worried about his carreer, family life, professional life and mental health. If anything Pete is probably worse off now than he was before because the depression is probably still there but now he has the weight of the world on him with all those other factors lingering in his mind.
So with all that said what do you think pete would end up doing? Getting "help" or just "dealing with it" and maybe having a few drinks at the hotel bar to help him sleep better at night? I'm sure pete would love to see a professional to help him cope with his depression or whatever but the FAA creates an environment where that is not possible. This also explains the rampant alcoholism that pilots face.
Want to do something about it, pressure the government to actually care about someones mental health.
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What does the FAA have to do with a pilot who operates in Europe?
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I honestly believe that individual would have been successful in crashing the airplane if they really wanted to even with a third individual on that flight deck. It would've been in the ground or in water eventually regardless of jumpseat occupation.
Airlines can't fully staff their schedules now with 2 pilot crews. Where are they going to find a third?
Bunch of old guys with guns on jump seats isn't the answer to any problem I can think of.
Even this nut knew he couldn't crash the plane with the captain in the cockpit. He had to wait for the captain to leave the deck. It doesn't matter if it was a terror attack or murder the result is the same, flying public will demand a third party be present at all time.
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Just in:
Consequence of the Germanwings tragedy,
More safety on board Lufthansa (Lufthansa, Air Berlin, Condor und TuiFly) introduces new two-person rule.
that was quick.
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But not unexpected, this will lead to rules to prevent similar acts by a single crew member.
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Just in:
Consequence of the Germanwings tragedy,
More safety on board Lufthansa (Lufthansa, Air Berlin, Condor und TuiFly) introduces new two-person rule.
that was quick.
When I was a kid planes had 3 crew members. Dropped for cost reasons.
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What does the FAA have to do with a pilot who operates in Europe?
All it will take is either the FAA or their European counterparts to change their stance on mental health and treatment. It's taken the military forever to start to change their attitude towards it.
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more news:
"Now Norwegian Air Shuttle, EasyJet and Air Canada introduces new two-person rule."
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Airbus safety video shows cockpit door entry procedure – video
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/mar/26/airbus-safety-video-shows-cockpit-door-entry-procedure-germanwings-crash
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Do I understand this correctly? The FAA should relax their policy regarding mental heath issues to allow pilots experiencing such issues to continue to fly while seeking the help of a mental health professional and maybe taking prescription drugs to treat said issues because the person in crisis can continue in his chosen career?
I cant believe someone would even type that.
Believe me the FAA does all it can to help people with problems but they cannot allow persons with signs of mental health issues or any type of substance abuse continue in any safety related position. Is it wrong of the FAA to pull a persons ticket just because he received a DUI/DWI or public intoxication summons? I don't think it is.
As far as stopping people from doing things like this..... you cant. You can only take steps to make it harder for them to accomplish such deeds. It is a well know fact that for every safeguard put in place it is only a matter of time before someone finds a solution or workaround to it.
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Do I understand this correctly? The FAA should relax their policy regarding mental heath issues to allow pilots experiencing such issues to continue to fly while seeking the help of a mental health professional and maybe taking prescription drugs to treat said issues because the person in crisis can continue in his chosen career?
I cant believe someone would even type that.
Believe me the FAA does all it can to help people with problems but they cannot allow persons with signs of mental health issues or any type of substance abuse continue in any safety related position. Is it wrong of the FAA to pull a persons ticket just because he received a DUI/DWI or public intoxication summons? I don't think it is.
As far as stopping people from doing things like this..... you cant. You can only take steps to make it harder for them to accomplish such deeds. It is a well know fact that for every safeguard put in place it is only a matter of time before someone finds a solution or workaround to it.
You could establish an insurance fund to pay the salary (some portion of) of pilots judged to have mental health problems. It could be very similar to long term disability coverage that some companies provide their employees today. Current plans are not too expensive, but here in the US most do not cover mental health and have a pre-existing clause.
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You could establish an insurance fund to pay the salary (some portion of) of pilots judged to have mental health problems. It could be very similar to long term disability coverage that some companies provide their employees today. Current plans are not too expensive, but here in the US most do not cover mental health and have a pre-existing clause.
That's a great idea Sys. I know that the Air Traffic Controllers union, NATCA, offers insurance to its members that covers a portion or your salary (75% tax free I believe as the Federal tax laws exempt disability payments) if the controller loses his medical for any reason other than self induced. I don't know all the details, I retired a few years back and tossed all that stuff, but if the airlines had something like that available it would surely help.
On the other hand it wouldn't help the person who's mind was made up to do something like this without seeking the help that was available to him/her.
Unfortunately we live in a world where you just cant legislate all tragedy away.
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I think that with a little push this would already be achievable.
Not really no. The technology isn't mature enough for people to trust in it yet. It will be the military (as usual) who will use this technology first. After the next major conflict when these autonomous combat aircraft fly better than human pilots and kill all the right people and none of the wrong people, then... Then perhaps.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/la-fi-mo-navy-drone-x47b-20130709-002.jpg)
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When I was a kid planes had 3 crew members. Dropped for cost reasons.
Technology arrived so that the plane only needed 2 people. A happy consequence (for the companies) is that it saved them the cost of the 3rd crew member.
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More potential lunatics in the cockpit isn't necessarily a good thing. FedEx 705 comes to mind.
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Autonomous flight with paying passengers isn't going to happen for a very long time.
One of the key components (imho), weather detection, isn't up to par yet. Particularly above the freezing level. Radar cannot detect dry ice. Dry ice exists in the tops of thunderstorms, currently with the latest update to the aircraft weather radars they're using algorithms to predict cloud tops and so far its about a 50/50 success rate. So if a radar doesn't see the top of the thunderstorm, it will let the plane fly through it resulting in very unhappy passengers (at the least). You can say, well they'll fix that, which is true, but they've been trying very hard the last 20 years, it will be another 20 before they get close.
You'll see driverless cars before pilotless planes performing public transport.
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If I'm on a plane and there is an accident, systems failure, or one or all of the engines eats some birds I'll take a real life pilot over a piece of software any day of the week.
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Then I've got good news for you! If you're ever in a plane crash/accident chances are that it is because of the pilot! Yay! Pilot error has been the leading cause of commercial airline accidents by a wide margin for many years.
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/20100214_122239_pliot_graph.jpg)
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I've been told those anti-depressants don't really cure you and in most cases make things worse.
Which - if true (and I don't pretend to know) - is the flaw in this argument.
- oldman
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Then I've got good news for you! If you're ever in a plane crash/accident chances are that it is because of the pilot! Yay! Pilot error has been the leading cause of commercial airline accidents by a wide margin for many years.
A vicious circle. The engineering and redundancy of todays aeroplanes is of a very high standard, this leaves companies under the impression that they can train to standards that reflect the likelihood of a failure, this usual means to the minimum training laid out by the relevant government organisation.
Also with the explosion of the low cost airlines, there aren't enough experienced pilots to go around, so companies people with the bare minimum. When I first joined an airline I was "lucky" as I had only 3000 hours, all my classmates had 5000hours. Now days people are in the right hand seat with 200 hours.
They now call it the "Startle Factor", with the combination of good equipment and low experience, when something does go wrong the pilots are "startled" which if it happens at the wrong time and place leads poor decisions and onto disaster. eg, Tawain ATR, and AirAsia A320.
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Autonomous flight with paying passengers isn't going to happen for a very long time.
One of the key components (imho), weather detection, isn't up to par yet. Particularly above the freezing level. Radar cannot detect dry ice. Dry ice exists in the tops of thunderstorms, currently with the latest update to the aircraft weather radars they're using algorithms to predict cloud tops and so far its about a 50/50 success rate. So if a radar doesn't see the top of the thunderstorm, it will let the plane fly through it resulting in very unhappy passengers (at the least). You can say, well they'll fix that, which is true, but they've been trying very hard the last 20 years, it will be another 20 before they get close.
You'll see driverless cars before pilotless planes performing public transport.
There could be remote drone operators that could control the flight within safe pre-programmed flight parameters though. I'm 100% sure it would be achievable if they really wanted. Of course emergency situations would remain the problem. Electrical failure or similar would be very hard to control remotely.
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You could establish an insurance fund to pay the salary (some portion of) of pilots judged to have mental health problems. It could be very similar to long term disability coverage that some companies provide their employees today. Current plans are not too expensive, but here in the US most do not cover mental health and have a pre-existing clause.
Most commercial pilots working for an air carrier carry their own private insurance for continuation of salary should they lose their medical.
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Then I've got good news for you! If you're ever in a plane crash/accident chances are that it is because of the pilot! Yay! Pilot error has been the leading cause of commercial airline accidents by a wide margin for many years.
:airplane: I think I have finally got you figured out!!! with your attitude, you must be a frustrated FAA pilot examiner, who is pissed because everybody and everything is not perfect. I knew a guy like you once that was an examiner, the last we saw of him, he had bent over and kissed his a++ goodbye over a guy flunking a Lockheed Hudson check ride!
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For the record, I do not agree with taking prescription drugs either. I also did not write this paragraph. The situation seemed relative.
Also, counciling and having a safe person to express your feelings to without disparagement might be the way to go. Every person goes through psychological problems. A pilot who can express relief by talking to a counciler may be beneficial to their state of mind, which may help them keep a strong head while risking people's lives in the cockpit.
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Lol Earl. No. :)
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Root causes of plane accidents
(http://www.1001crash.com/stats/graph/cause_en.gif)
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What kind of demon takes not only his own but 149 other people to their deaths is what boggles the mind... You have to be incredibly angry or cuckoo to do this..
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What kind of demon takes not only his own but 149 other people to their deaths is what boggles the mind... You have to be incredibly angry or cuckoo to do this..
He was mentally ill but hid his diagnosis from the company. The police found medication and torn sick leave papers at his home.
The system failed big time. Doctor: The patient apparently is depressed and crazy. But we trust him to be straight headed enough to notify his employer free willingly.
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Wtf everytime i turn on the news how can you not get more depressed... people are by far the worst species on this planet, I don't think the wright brothers envisioned this back then
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His girlfriend left him, and he murders a plane full of people. What a bleeding butthole.
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See Rule #14
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Dude had a doctor's note not to fly that day.
Unbelievable. What a sorry SOB.
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Dude had a doctor's note not to fly that day.
Unbelievable. What a sorry SOB.
What a sorry failure of the system when a doctor can't notify a dangerous individual to the authorities. The system killed the passengers in this case.
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What a sorry failure of the system when a doctor can't notify a dangerous individual to the authorities. The system killed the passengers in this case.
Not so sure of that. If the system allowed the doctor to notify the authorities about the individual then said individual simply doesn't go to the doctor because the consequences of doing so are catastrophic to him or her.
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What a sorry failure of the system when a doctor can't notify a dangerous individual to the authorities. The system killed the passengers in this case.
The question is: Did he know / tulips this individual to be dangerous? Just because the doctor writes such a note it doesn't mean he would have even remotely expected like that.
While the doctor is sworn to medical confitentially, there are exceptions by law in case of an justified emergency (as per §34 StGB). If this pilot had made any remarks indicating he's contemplating such a suicide, the doctor would have been allowed to inform the authorities.
But we don't know anything of this yet. Perhaps the doctor didn't know the full extend of the pilot's 'problems'. Maybe he did and failed to put 1+1 together.
At this point, it's just speculation.
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Not so sure of that. If the system allowed the doctor to notify the authorities about the individual then said individual simply doesn't go to the doctor because the consequences of doing so are catastrophic to him or her.
Without meds his symptoms would be so obvious that the employer and co-employees would take action.
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Not so sure of that. If the system allowed the doctor to notify the authorities about the individual then said individual simply doesn't go to the doctor because the consequences of doing so are catastrophic to him or her.
Right. Thats all we need is Doctors calling employers as patients are walking out the office. Why even bothering calling ourselves "free" after thats allowed? Im sorry those people died but Doctor/patient confidentiality is one of the cornerstones of freedom. "Freedoms" that "millions" died for so that we can have.
Germans have constitutional rights as we do and they are more important then 150 lives. Besides remove them and nobody would go for help, other then the vodka store like the Russians do.
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Without meds his symptoms would be so obvious that the employer and co-employees would take action.
This is a WILD assumption to make, bordering on moronic. That's not a personal slight against you Ripley, but mental issues manifest so incredibly differently between people, to assume HIS symptoms would have been particularly obvious is ridiculous.
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This is a WILD assumption to make, bordering on moronic. That's not a personal slight against you Ripley, but mental issues manifest so incredibly differently between people, to assume HIS symptoms would have been particularly obvious is ridiculous.
IMO anyone who shows any sort of mental history or symptoms should not be allowed to drive a 200 passenger airplane.
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Disagree, a lot of people have a period of depression or something like that but get trough it and can move on. That should not haunt u for the rest of your life. It will only lead to people not seeking help because thy know that any contact with a shrink etc will label them as mentaly instable for life. It is bad as it is.
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Disagree, a lot of people have a period of depression or something like that but get trough it and can move on. That should not haunt u for the rest of your life. It will only lead to people not seeking help because thy know that any contact with a shrink etc will label them as mentaly instable for life. It is bad as it is.
Well the sad fact is that if you need to contact a shrink even once in your life you are above average mentally unstable and therefore IMO unsuitable for the job.
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Well the sad fact is that if you need to contact a shrink even once in your life you are above average mentally unstable and therefore IMO unsuitable for the job.
There is a difference between "need to" and "it might help so I'll try it", but your rule would completely eliminate the second option for people.
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It would be a lot nicer if we lived in a black and white world, wouldn't it?
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Well the sad fact is that if you need to contact a shrink even once in your life you are above average mentally unstable and therefore IMO unsuitable for the job.
Wow...
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Wow...
The stupidity of some people is astounding at times, eh!?!?
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Yep....
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Well the sad fact is that if you need to contact a shrink even once in your life you are above average mentally unstable and therefore IMO unsuitable for the job.
So, I'll rat myself out, I've had moment where the stress got to me, and I thought "hey, maybe I should go talk to someone to decompress." You think that rules me out of the flying role?
We send people to psych frequently. It's a fact of life. Your gauge for what is average for mental stability must come from a very simple stress-free life. In aviation, at least military aviation, we expect struggles. We expect people to need help, because what is becoming commonplace in life is FAR beyond what humans evolved to handle.
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So, I'll rat myself out, I've had moment where the stress got to me, and I thought "hey, maybe I should go talk to someone to decompress." You think that rules me out of the flying role?
We send people to psych frequently. It's a fact of life. Your gauge for what is average for mental stability must come from a very simple stress-free life. In aviation, at least military aviation, we expect struggles. We expect people to need help, because what is becoming commonplace in life is FAR beyond what humans evolved to handle.
I don't know anyone who is considered to be straight headed to ever visit a shrink. Maybe you have a lower limit for using the services but in my book if you're messed up enough to have to visit a shrink I don't want to fly in your plane. Period.
I mean you need to have some serious issues mentally before even the thought of accessing mental healthcare services pops up. Most people deal with their stress by going out jogging or having a night out with the friends playing pool. You know, the way that healthy persons do.
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I don't know anyone who is considered to be straight headed to ever visit a shrink. Maybe you have a lower limit for using the services but in my book if you're messed up enough to have to visit a shrink I don't want to fly in your plane. Period.
I mean you need to have some serious issues mentally before even the thought of accessing mental healthcare services pops up. Most people deal with their stress by going out jogging or having a night out with the friends playing pool. You know, the way that healthy persons do.
You've got some pretty rigid preconceived notions there.
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I don't know anyone who is considered to be straight headed to ever visit a shrink. Maybe you have a lower limit for using the services but in my book if you're messed up enough to have to visit a shrink I don't want to fly in your plane. Period.
I mean you need to have some serious issues mentally before even the thought of accessing mental healthcare services pops up. Most people deal with their stress by going out jogging or having a night out with the friends playing pool. You know, the way that healthy persons do.
Wrong. For ex, your family is killed in an accident, u get help to handle the trauma but that would in your world disqualify u from being a pilot for the rest of your life. U have apparently no clue about what you are talking about.
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Im sorry those people died but Doctor/patient confidentiality is one of the cornerstones of freedom. "Freedoms" that "millions" died for so that we can have.
To be honest...
Almost any serious (health/live etc) insurance require you to allow access to medical records... We allow access to health data to many organization otherwise we wouldn't get services.
AFAIK, pilots MUST report any health issues to employer (or not be a pilot keeping his private stuff to himself - his choice) - so I don't think doctor/patient confidentiality works there. A pilot by selecting the job virtually removes the confidentiality at least between doctor, patient and employer.
Doctors could if not should report the health issues to pilot employer or at least pass the information to required authorities - it isn't question of rights, it is more question of the legal mechanism that would allow the physician to report problems without fear of being sued or loosing his license.
For example, in California physicians are required to report some health states to DMV as drivers with such a conditions may threaten the public. The right for privacy is not absolute as a public has also a right for safety.
I don't see same rues can't or shouldn't be applied to aviation safety.
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I don't know anyone who is considered to be straight headed to ever visit a shrink. Maybe you have a lower limit for using the services but in my book if you're messed up enough to have to visit a shrink I don't want to fly in your plane. Period.
I mean you need to have some serious issues mentally before even the thought of accessing mental healthcare services pops up. Most people deal with their stress by going out jogging or having a night out with the friends playing pool. You know, the way that healthy persons do.
OH is that why there are no ads for antidepressant ever on t.v. What is the difference between jogging to treat stress or talking to friends about stress and seeing a therapist? You of course are welcome to your opinion on seeing a shrink, I just think your are making to bing a deal about talking to one.
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Wrong. For ex, your family is killed in an accident, u get help to handle the trauma but that would in your world disqualify u from being a pilot for the rest of your life. U have apparently no clue about what you are talking about.
A useful example. I agree with your conclusion as well.
- oldman
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We need not go off and create laws that we don't need. The US has a two person rule about people on the flight deck. The problem with someone losing it, does not seem to be a problem for the US airspace. It appears that every airline around the world now has put in place the same type of rule. Besides, Every commercial pilot that I know and including myself when I flew for Eastern only went to an FAA Medical Examiner once or twice a year as required by the FAR's. If I needed to see a doctor in between visits to the FAA Medical Doctor, I just went to a local guy and as far as my occupation on his medical questionnaire, I was self-employed. Once I got my salary continuation insurance then I always went to Eastern's Flight Doctor and prayed that he grounded me.
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We need not go off and create laws that we don't need. The US has a two person rule about people on the flight deck. The problem with someone losing it, does not seem to be a problem for the US airspace. It appears that every airline around the world now has put in place the same type of rule. Besides, Every commercial pilot that I know and including myself when I flew for Eastern only went to an FAA Medical Examiner once or twice a year as required by the FAR's. If I needed to see a doctor in between visits to the FAA Medical Doctor, I just went to a local guy and as far as my occupation on his medical questionnaire, I was self-employed. Once I got my salary continuation insurance then I always went to Eastern's Flight Doctor and prayed that he grounded me.
:airplane: I would give anything to see those "Hockey Stick" paint schemes flying around again! That would mean I would be in late 20's at best and would have a lot of exciting events and women to look forward to again! LOL
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Wrong. For ex, your family is killed in an accident, u get help to handle the trauma but that would in your world disqualify u from being a pilot for the rest of your life. U have apparently no clue about what you are talking about.
No matter the cause, if this incident causes mental instability he should not be allowed to take responsibility of 200 peoples lives. It's all black and white in my book. You don't like it? You travel in his plane.
Pilot: Oh geez I'm a little absent minded right now because my family just got killed (while doing pre-flight checklist).
Passenger: Oh thats's ok. I'm sure you'll do fine fly along... :rolleyes:
By the way the Germanwings pilot was beign treated for suicidal tendencies of all things.
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What u are suggesting is that a pilot should be grounded for life if such a thing happen. Im pretty sure a pilot will be taken out of service temoparly if he have lost his family. But ground him for life? No
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What u are suggesting is that a pilot should be grounded for life if such a thing happen. Im pretty sure a pilot will be taken out of service temoparly if he have lost his family. But ground him for life? No
Minimum grounded until he passes psych tests with flying colors. Mental patients like the Germanwings pilot should not fly, period. It's two different thing to have a born tendency for mental issues and getting treated for it vs having temporary stress due to loss in family.
That being said even if the pilot was the most straight headed individual ever and his family got just prior to flight wiped by a 18-wheeler - I wouldn't want to fly in his plane.
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No he wouldnt have flying, noone question that. But your statement was that anyone that has any contact with a shrink should be banned from flying forever.
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Ripley, I don't think you have a very firm grasp of life in aviation. There are GOING to be life stresses for everyone, but with the insane amount of additional load put on pilots by work, you're going to see higher than normal incidences of stress casualties. You want to regulate anyone dealing with any kind of issue right out of the cockpit? We tried that in the military. Accidents were high, and suicides weren't unusual. You want to REDUCE mental-health related issues? Encourage self reporting by understanding what is a safe level to fly, and not punishing those that seek help.
Here is how YOUR theory works:
Say I take a dive on my last 3 flights, I'm stressed, and I'm losing my edge because I'm already worked up before I even get into the cockpit. I go talk to a counselor to try to find ways to calm down and get back to peak performance. Well, now that I'm seeing a counselor, by your logic, I'm immediately grounded from flying, so I'm losing hours and practice, getting farther behind the curve. What's more, I don't know if I even have a job anymore, because now I have ANOTHER test, this psych evaluation, that I'm worried about, pushing my stress levels even higher. So what am I gonna do? NOT go talk to someone to begin with and try to gut it out. THAT is how you cause casualties.
What we do right now WORKS. If you have an issue, go talk to someone. Between you and the counselor you can evaluate if you're still safe to fly, and if you are, great. If not, get a down watermelon and take some time. The whole time, NO ONE reports on what you're getting help for. Your down-chit is medical, NOT mental health, so you CAN go get help whenever you need it, without having to worry about losing you're entire career.
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No he wouldnt have flying, noone question that. But your statement was that anyone that has any contact with a shrink should be banned from flying forever.
For a mental problem that's not natural stress related, yes, no-fly zone right there. At least on commercial passenger planes.
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Say I take a dive on my last 3 flights, I'm stressed, and I'm losing my edge because I'm already worked up before I even get into the cockpit. I go talk to a counselor to try to find ways to calm down and get back to peak performance. Well, now that I'm seeing a counselor, by your logic, I'm immediately grounded from flying, so I'm losing hours and practice, getting farther behind the curve. What's more, I don't know if I even have a job anymore, because now I have ANOTHER test, this psych evaluation, that I'm worried about, pushing my stress levels even higher. So what am I gonna do? NOT go talk to someone to begin with and try to gut it out. THAT is how you cause casualties.
If you're mentally messed enough to not pass your daily work routine without a psych council in my book you're not fit for the job. Simple as that.
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I know it's pointless but I have to say that it might seem like a simple policy but it doesn't work.
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If you're mentally messed enough to not pass your daily work routine without a psych council in my book you're not fit for the job. Simple as that.
I think Ripley is lumping anyone that talks to anyone about stress in with psychopaths and the like. You should totally internalize everything so one day it boils over. He's neglecting to consider that most people go through tough times and its actually healthy to talk about thing rather than hold them in because your worried about losing work with would be yet another stressor. Ripley is a prime example of someone that is going to crack when things get hard.
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That's a great idea Sys. I know that the Air Traffic Controllers union, NATCA, offers insurance to its members that covers a portion or your salary (75% tax free I believe as the Federal tax laws exempt disability payments) if the controller loses his medical for any reason other than self induced. I don't know all the details, I retired a few years back and tossed all that stuff, but if the airlines had something like that available it would surely help.
On the other hand it wouldn't help the person who's mind was made up to do something like this without seeking the help that was available to him/her.
Unfortunately we live in a world where you just cant legislate all tragedy away.
joker is not just disability payments but more like insurance payments. life insurance, disability insurance, stuff like that.
semp
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For a mental problem that's not natural stress related, yes, no-fly zone right there. At least on commercial passenger planes.
I agree with ripley but only because I know first hand what it feels to take anti-depressants. not sure if ripley ever taken some or had first hand experience with them.
although anti-depressants do help 99% of the people there's a few people like me when it doesnt help. to me taking anti-depressants causes a constant thought of suicide, trust me, i am not suicidal and the only time I have ever tried to hurt myself is when I was using them. I went to seek help because of lots of things that I am not gonna talk about here. but the FAA is right about this. if you get on anti-depressants, more than likely they will help you and a few months later you'll hopefully come out ok, or at least it helps you cope with your problem and that is a good thing.
you should always seek help instead of listening to really dumb threads like this. but at the same time, should really question what you take and what it is supposed to do for you and if it doesnt then go back to your doctor and explain if it doesnt work. if it does work, then it is awesome, by all means no shame in keep taking them for as long as you need.
in the usa we have, I dont know about a zillion pilots flying and a small percentage of them do have, and I hate to call it mental problems as they most likely arent. but some pilots do need help and out of those who do some will feel like me. trust me when they say "thoughts of suicide" as a side effect doesnt even cover it, it's more like an obsession where sometimes it takes most of your time thinking about it.
FAA does understand why people on anti-depressants shouldnt pilot an airplane. it's not the majority of people that it helps that scares them it's the few guys who will feel something like I feel that does.
knowing what I know about myself, I would really feel scared to fly with somebody who takes them. on the other hand it also scares me to fly knowing there's people who need help and cant get any. in other words some people are gonna get screwed one way or another. dont know what is the answer is, just saying what I know from first hand experience.
my 20 pesos.
semp
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If you're mentally messed enough to not pass your daily work routine without a psych council in my book you're not fit for the job. Simple as that.
Ripley, you're talking out of your rear at this point.
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I agree with ripley but only because I know first hand what it feels to take anti-depressants. not sure if ripley ever taken some or had first hand experience with them.
although anti-depressants do help 99% of the people there's a few people like me when it doesnt help. to me taking anti-depressants causes a constant thought of suicide, trust me, i am not suicidal and the only time I have ever tried to hurt myself is when I was using them. I went to seek help because of lots of things that I am not gonna talk about here. but the FAA is right about this. if you get on anti-depressants, more than likely they will help you and a few months later you'll hopefully come out ok, or at least it helps you cope with your problem and that is a good thing.
you should always seek help instead of listening to really dumb threads like this. but at the same time, should really question what you take and what it is supposed to do for you and if it doesnt then go back to your doctor and explain if it doesnt work. if it does work, then it is awesome, by all means no shame in keep taking them for as long as you need.
in the usa we have, I dont know about a zillion pilots flying and a small percentage of them do have, and I hate to call it mental problems as they most likely arent. but some pilots do need help and out of those who do some will feel like me. trust me when they say "thoughts of suicide" as a side effect doesnt even cover it, it's more like an obsession where sometimes it takes most of your time thinking about it.
FAA does understand why people on anti-depressants shouldnt pilot an airplane. it's not the majority of people that it helps that scares them it's the few guys who will feel something like I feel that does.
knowing what I know about myself, I would really feel scared to fly with somebody who takes them. on the other hand it also scares me to fly knowing there's people who need help and cant get any. in other words some people are gonna get screwed one way or another. dont know what is the answer is, just saying what I know from first hand experience.
my 20 pesos.
semp
There are already a lot of cases were a pilot can be grounded for medical reasons, but we dont want a system were pilots hide there illness because they are afraid of loosing their job. If u have a problem u deal with it and if needed stay on ground for a while but u should be able to get a clearence to fly again once the problem is solved. Banning people for life would only lead to more pilots with issues that keep them secret until they snap.
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(http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/photobylines/2011/3/4/1299248637311/England-in-anti-depressan-008.jpg)
Ialso found a report that stated 1 in10 Americans take antidepressants. That is ALOT of people pretty good chance there are a fair amount of pilots in these figures
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Bottom line seems that in the US airspace system, under the rules that existed prior to this event, the two person rule on the flight deck at all times seems to work. As for how to treat people with depression watch out for the slippery slope. Any laws that are enacted today will be around for a very long time. Do you want anyone able to determine through absolute power what you will do or won't do for a living in the distant future? Who is to determine what that persons mental reasoning is?
I think through a very simple change to the locking system for the cockpit door a means can be developed that would allow a crew member a procedure to override the lock out entry code, to ensure safety of the flight crew, a procedure to require duel entry code from within the cockpit requiring two people to each set their own toggle switch to lockout the flight deck door entry code. One lock out toggle switch to the pilots far left and one lock out toggle switch to the copilots far right. Currently there is only one lock out toggle switch located in the center between the two pilots.
Depression happens to many of us at one time or another, when my wife passed away I stopped instructing, I was depressed, not crazy , I knew I would not be doing a very good job trying to teach someone how to fly and so I transitioned my students over to two other flight instructors, I stopped instructing for over a year, when I felt ready to start again and to be sure I got and passed a First Class Medical, and requested a check ride with the FAA. I passed. I think most people do the right thing and we need to be very careful how much power we allow any government to exercise over us.
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(http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/photobylines/2011/3/4/1299248637311/England-in-anti-depressan-008.jpg)
Ialso found a report that stated 1 in10 Americans take antidepressants. That is ALOT of people pretty good chance there are a fair amount of pilots in these figures
I dont think it's 1 in 10, perhaps 1 in 10 in a lifetime. I know a lot of people, probably a couple of hundred and only a couple are taking them.
semp
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I dont think it's 1 in 10, perhaps 1 in 10 in a lifetime. I know a lot of people, probably a couple of hundred and only a couple are taking them.
semp
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/a-glut-of-antidepressants/?_r=0
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http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/a-glut-of-antidepressants/?_r=0
I actually doubt their research. just based on what I see and my uneducated guess :).
semp
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Depression happens to many of us at one time or another, when my wife passed away I stopped instructing, I was depressed, not crazy , I knew I would not be doing a very good job trying to teach someone how to fly and so I transitioned my students over to two other flight instructors, I stopped instructing for over a year, when I felt ready to start again and to be sure I got and passed a First Class Medical, and requested a check ride with the FAA. I passed. I think most people do the right thing and we need to be very careful how much power we allow any government to exercise over us.
Did you tell the AME that you had been depressed?
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Did you tell the AME that you had been depressed?
Yes I did. But I was not on any medication.
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Yes I did. But I was not on any medication.
:airplane: Lost my first wife in 89, stayed depressed till 92, then met and married a wonderful woman and she passed away Nov of 2013.
The only time I don't feel depressed now is when I am in the game, except when Snailman shoots down all three of my B-17's in one pass, then I realize how little I know about this game I love so much. But, as if by magic, I can press one of the runway headings and lo, am airborne once again!