General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: toddbobe on November 14, 2017, 02:34:53 PM
Title: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: toddbobe on November 14, 2017, 02:34:53 PM
What is vehicle quadrant option I now see on the map? Todd
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bustr on November 14, 2017, 03:17:49 PM
The enemy vehicle will cause that to show up if it is within 6000 and inside of that arc. Anything you drive, sail, or fly will generate this if a tank is 6000 or closer. You can turn it off by right clicking on the map and its called vehicle quadrants.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 14, 2017, 05:44:29 PM
Note that planes can use this, which should make it pretty easy for them to find GVs, by an order of magnitude. (sigh). I already had little problem finding them with the old version (fly back and forth at treetop level in my Yak 3).
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: puller on November 14, 2017, 06:12:06 PM
No more hiding m3s :neener:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: thndregg on November 14, 2017, 07:03:50 PM
Just hope it's not another step toward too much instantly convenient information having the effect of removing the effort.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Dundee on November 14, 2017, 07:10:35 PM
2 days ago I hid from Slippy for almost an hour in an M3, wasn't hard to do because of all the trees to hide in..........wow 1 day later and we have radar for GV's. I do not really see this as an improvement for game play, just another step in the direction of arcade mode......surprises me thyy have not done this with planes flying in the radar voids.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Lusche on November 14, 2017, 07:14:22 PM
Tried it, was totally easy to locate a GV in the tank center of Oceania. A few circles while just watching the clipboard; and only had to actually look for the (well hidden) tank for the last few yards. When in a GV, it's also providing way more info than even with the old "listening for GV" of AH2, you can immediately sense any ambush long before you even come into firing range.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: thndregg on November 14, 2017, 07:19:30 PM
Tried it, was totally easy to locate a GV in the tank center of Oceania. A few circles while just watching the clipboard; and only had to actually look for the (well hidden) tank for the last few yards. When in a GV, it's also providing way more info than even with the old "listening for GV" of AH2, you can immediately sense any ambush long before you even come into firing range.
Haven't tried it yet. Probably will later tonight after dinner, but it doesn't sound real great in my opinion already..
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Dundee on November 14, 2017, 08:00:28 PM
I think this will all but kill tank town.........wtg
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: toddbobe on November 15, 2017, 12:07:26 AM
I discovered its true use when more people got online... I dont like at all.. they are destroying the simulation part of the game... Sneaking bases is part if the fun. Todd
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 27th on November 15, 2017, 02:46:39 AM
I discovered its true use when more people got online... I dont like at all.. they are destroying the simulation part of the game... Sneaking bases is part if the fun. Todd
I agree. This is basically a legal cheat. An assistant. Laziness. Sneaking is gone.
:salute
27th
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 15, 2017, 07:39:59 AM
Wow. I am wondering if you are the same guys that got the camp hangars buffed, wtg. Haven't even explored that one yet - look forward to it. Ever notice how warriors embrace defense? There'd be no war at all if it weren't for the Kilroy's.
Well I got to say that I just tried out the new quadrant dar and I LOVE IT. If this is what they are trading for supposedly nerfing my spawn camp, I'll take it. I got the better end of the deal. This game is so freaking arcade compared to real battle, learn chess if you can't handle the symbolism, jeez. There is a game where you have to witness grown men cry, yuk - you know, or lose of course. Toying with minds you wonder which is the greater gaff, but I digress. For hunting, this shiz is superlative and only tankers better than me will hate it.
Just now I used it to sniff out sharks in his T2, 21 town, chasing me; shot him in the butt, of course. Then it is over to guard the map room, boring, but I got my flashy new dar thingy to try out. "Guys, I am leaving the map room" and off I go. At this point, your best strategy is to pretend to be an M3 and snuff me in my exuberance. Quick check of my quadrant dar confirms they have learned the flag is no longer white and I can tower my kills to high fives on the carrier deck, mission accomplished.
I say let them bomb**** quadrant sniff me, I'm not out there to count daisies anyway. 90% of them don't know how to use it, the rest, I already know you, I know how you fly and what to expect, bring it.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: zack1234 on November 15, 2017, 07:43:10 AM
I agree :old:
Then again I don’t :old:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Oldman731 on November 15, 2017, 07:55:15 AM
I agree. This is basically a legal cheat. An assistant. Laziness. Sneaking is gone.
:salute
27th
God forbid you actually risk getting killed in a combat game. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Lusche on November 15, 2017, 08:33:53 AM
If I were someone habitually overhwelming enemy defenses with superior numbers, I would love it. Similar to the inflated radar circles we had for a short time years ago. :)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 15, 2017, 08:43:19 AM
If I were someone habitually overhwelming enemy defenses with superior numbers, I would love it. Similar to the inflated radar circles we had for a short time years ago. :)
Huh, FYI today is a day of perk planes and equal numbers. So players that don't experience that condition might also love it. You with inferior numbers, might actually love it.
Anyway, has anyone experimented with the tracking yet? OMG, circle an enemy tank.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Vinkman on November 15, 2017, 08:53:58 AM
-1 for GV radar. The blinking base and field were enough. :salute
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 15, 2017, 09:15:15 AM
Yes, I am afraid it is too powerful. No one will be able to attack fields in a tank while ords are up. I will teach everyone the trick right now to level the playing field and get this experiment over with. The following is a simplified reenactment. Up an A-20 and fly along the edge of a dar quadrant. When the quadrant flips, turn 90 degrees toward the quadrant and follow the edge. When it flips, drop bombs, the tank is dead.
I just used this technique to isolate a single tree, before even looking for the tank. Using quadrant flipping, I already knew which tree to scan, so the whole idea of using trees for cover that they were supposedly created and perfected to provide, is now out the window and I retract my impetuous endorsement. I'd foolishly assumed it only worked for gv's where it belongs.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: hitech on November 15, 2017, 09:29:40 AM
BTW the range of the vehicle radar is adjustable for observer,vehicle,plane and flack independently.
Also the quadrant is my first attempt at displaying some type of info that vehicles are in the area. I've wanted to add some type of display since AH3 was released, the reason is because of the increased tree density making if difficult to even know if a vehicle is in the area.
I'm convinced that more info was needed simply showing that a vehicle is some where to be found to fight in visible range. So any suggestion how to display that a vehicle is in the area(3 - 5 mile radius), with out giving a precise location will be considered.
HiTech
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Zimme83 on November 15, 2017, 09:37:25 AM
Dust/smoke from moving GV:s and having them leave a trail would do..
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 15, 2017, 09:40:10 AM
Your best bet then would be to use a light, for example turn the connection indicator into a gv indicator. that way, when they fly over me, I know to disguise my location while they are trying to figure out which part of the 3~5 mile radius they entered.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: hitech on November 15, 2017, 09:40:58 AM
Your best bet then would be to use a light, for example turn the connection indicator into a gv indicator. that way, when they fly over me, I know to disguise my location while they are trying to figure out which part of the 3~5 mile radius they entered.
That would be the same as simply turning the quads into a circle. Which is something I am considering.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: oboe on November 15, 2017, 09:43:44 AM
-1 for GV radar. The blinking base and field were enough. :salute
I agree, and add the Storch to Vinkman's mentioned items. I hadn't found locating GVs too difficult. There was usually enough of us hunting that somebody would up a Storch to help search. Conversely if I was trying to sneak attack an enemy field in a GV, if I heard a Storch fire up I knew I would be located. What I liked about it is that it encouraged cooperation and communication between players.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Wiley on November 15, 2017, 09:47:54 AM
BTW the range of the vehicle radar is adjustable for observer,vehicle,plane and flack independently.
Also the quadrant is my first attempt at displaying some type of info that vehicles are in the area. I've wanted to add some type of display since AH3 was released, the reason is because of the increased tree density making if difficult to even know if a vehicle is in the area.
I'm convinced that more info was needed simply showing that a vehicle is some where to be found to fight in visible range. So any suggestion how to display that a vehicle is in the area(3 - 5 mile radius), with out giving a precise location will be considered.
HiTech
What about getting rid of the circle, and having your plane icon flash when you're within a certain distance of a GV and have it get faster the closer you are? Basically hot/cold. To make it so you don't get too much information, make the flash speed not get any faster when you're within a certain minimum distance. So the flash starts slow at 6k (or whatever) then gets faster up until you're 2k away, then the flash stays at a constant speed regardless of whether you're right on top of him or 2k away. Numbers just for example of course.
Alternately, what about having the bearing tied to fields instead of your vehicle? Maybe divide it into 8ths, so you'd know the general direction from the field or strat the vehicles are.
The main problem with the quadrants is it's too easy to get it to give you a bearing. It's just too easy to triangulate. If you really want to make the quadrants work, maybe a delay or slower tick rate?
Wiley.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: popeye on November 15, 2017, 09:48:06 AM
How about "listening posts" distributed around fields and towns. They would have an icon that friendlies could see to mark their location and flash when an enemy GV was within a certain radius. By noticing when they start/stop flashing you could triangulate a rough position and direction for the GV. Make them a selectable option (like spawn points) to minimize map clutter.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 15, 2017, 09:51:41 AM
I've wanted to add some type of display since AH3 was released, the reason is because of the increased tree density making if difficult to even know if a vehicle is in the area.
I'm convinced that more info was needed simply showing that a vehicle is some where to be found to fight in visible range. So any suggestion how to display that a vehicle is in the area(3 - 5 mile radius), with out giving a precise location will be considered.
HiTech
Also, why not plain old gv bar, just like dar bar? And if this is to address tree density, does the implementation of this mean we can hope for increased tree density as well? Except for a few maps trees are far too thin, imo. Some maps represent deserts the size of a small planet.
That would be the same as simply turning the quads into a circle. Which is something I am considering.
I disagree. A circle is a visual indicator, you can fly tangentially to it and get the same kind of indication a quadrant provides. A plain light or dar bar removes that visual cue, forcing the searcher to actually "navigate," as opposed to watching TomTom.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 15, 2017, 09:58:43 AM
BTW the range of the vehicle radar is adjustable for observer,vehicle,plane and flack independently.
Also the quadrant is my first attempt at displaying some type of info that vehicles are in the area. I've wanted to add some type of display since AH3 was released, the reason is because of the increased tree density making if difficult to even know if a vehicle is in the area.
I'm convinced that more info was needed simply showing that a vehicle is some where to be found to fight in visible range. So any suggestion how to display that a vehicle is in the area(3 - 5 mile radius), with out giving a precise location will be considered.
HiTech
HiTech, we already have this capability.
(1) From the GV's perspective, the "end sortie" color (red/green) basically tells us if a GV is in the area, even if it's stationary. (2) If our engine is off, the "sound location" capability tells us the bearing of moving GVs out to a long distance (typically 6K?). (3) if we set our own engine sound level to a very low value (like 1 or 2) and other engine sounds to 100, we can detect the bearing of moving GVs within 1000 yards even if we're moving. This latter method I used to follow a GV heading towards our radar factory to shoot it in the rear from close range. By making minor direction changes as I drove, and by noting minor engine volume changes, I was able to dynamically maintain a direct heading towards his location even when he changed directions. (4) From the aircraft's perspective, I have had great success in detecting enemy GVs by flying a fast fighter at treetop level. I usually start from their spawn, and fly to the town or base, and that's usually sufficient. If not, I quarter the area. The low alt allows me to see under most trees. Once I find one, I can vector others to its location. Remember that AC have speed, but GVs have indetectability. If you remove either, that platform is screwed. The balance was perfect before this patch. (5) IMHO we *want* stationary GVs to be harder to detect (pretend they've got a camouflage net thrown over them). Even so, it can still be done. Also, remember in most cases a stationary GV is relatively impotent, especially during base capture. In other cases, who cares?
I get the impression there are other existing techniques, but I haven't discovered them yet. Note all of the above require experience for best results, but isn't AH supposed to reward skill and initiative??
Respectfully yours, MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 100Coogn on November 15, 2017, 10:00:15 AM
Reduce tree density. Might help frame-rate too. Win-win...
Coogan
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 15, 2017, 11:03:58 AM
Reduce tree density. Might help frame-rate too. Win-win...
Coogan
This. :aok Hurricane IID Likes. :D
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bustr on November 15, 2017, 12:21:09 PM
Taking lessons from the successes for tank combat on BowlMA and tree density, I applied those to Oceania. If none of you have realized on Oceania, GV spawns have a density of trees and bushes only in the random spawn circle of 3000ft dia. Then leaving that area towards the town\field or heading to cut off the other spawn, I used grass to thin the tree density of the farm land tiles so you have sight vistas to shoot or run fast. And you still have tree clumps to duck into or shut down and go invisible.
There is not a tree density problem in AH3, there is a terrain builder problem with not testing spawns and adjusting them for tank combat like I do on my terrains. The hardest part of terrain building for the MA is the few square miles at every spawn point around a field tanks will fight in. Air combat is simple if this was 100% air combat only, slap something onto the ground that looks like a world, some nice trees and bushes 1000yds around every field and you are done because all pilots will ever see is a macro world. Ground combat dictates a micro world with needs based on the smallest width of terrain brush while creating those environments. Even if the only vehicle that will drive to a town is an LVT from the water, that still dictates creating tank combat terrain on a micro scale. A single LVT4 is just as dangerous sitting behind your fighter spawn as a T34, or de-acking the field just out of auto ack range.
On the AH2-->AH3 converted maps, the original AH2 tree and clutter tiles had a much lower density of trees with long vistas to see other tanks. AH3 clutter and tree tiles were auto painted during the conversion process. I spent a lot of time offline looking at the spawns on those converted terrains to understand the tank combat problems so I wouldn't carry them over into my terrains. One terrain builder with the smallest brush and a grass tile could eliminate many of those evils on the old AH2 converted terrains. More trees and trees right up the the airfield\town is not better, it turned tanks into cloaked death machines and allowed them to dictate unbalanced outcomes at airfields. That's why I put a ring of grass around airfields and towns to balance game play.
Open up my new terrain Oceania off line, either setup CM Eye mode and wander around the spawns slowly from the air, or fly slowly above them by about 3000ft and you will see how I used a grass tile with a small brush to open up the farm land for tank combat. The only thing that was being complained about at the mega spawn battle on A61's clover leaf island last night was how well lunatic and a few others were getting around behind the large rook tank force at the spawns. They were making use of the opened up farm land and tree clumps to flank and pick off the entrenched tanks who were hoping to pick off the in spawning knight tanks from the mainland. For a few hours they had up to 12 tanks on each side between the two spawns. And a good sized furball above it.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Easyscor on November 15, 2017, 12:30:13 PM
BTW the range of the vehicle radar is adjustable for observer,vehicle,plane and flack independently.
Also the quadrant is my first attempt at displaying some type of info that vehicles are in the area. I've wanted to add some type of display since AH3 was released, the reason is because of the increased tree density making if difficult to even know if a vehicle is in the area.
I'm convinced that more info was needed simply showing that a vehicle is some where to be found to fight in visible range. So any suggestion how to display that a vehicle is in the area(3 - 5 mile radius), with out giving a precise location will be considered.
HiTech
What we need is tue equivalent of dar bar for vehicles. Indication of the size of the enemy force with no exact loction, except which base they are attacking.
It needs to be on scales much smaller than a sector. Could be a bar that indicates the rough number of enemy GV inside X miles radius from the flag.
Place this bar in the field name tag, or above the town. If this clutters things then you may make it appear only in the mouse-over popup window (the one that shows base status).
This will tell the defender if they are dealing with a single GV, a mass raid, or that there are no GV at all and the base is flashing because of air threats. That is it - the defenders still need to scout and find the attackers, but at least they know that there is one/many.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: BuckShot on November 15, 2017, 01:56:11 PM
Drop the vehicle quadrant and bring back the old gv icon range!
A flashing base and enemy spawn arrows is enough to figure out the general area.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 100Coogn on November 15, 2017, 02:34:31 PM
Just saying. HiTech trying to add to the game, but it might make a little sense to take a little away. I think a lot of folks issues are with these trees. (too damn many)
Coogan
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Dundee on November 15, 2017, 02:44:38 PM
We have been complaining about the number of trees ever since AH 3 launched. It took only 1 day to implement this radar junk when 1 player spent almost an hour looking for me in some dense trees..........the solution is obvious ..........too many trees, and where are the roads........I mean they had roads in WW II why the heck do we not have them here.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Dundee on November 15, 2017, 02:46:00 PM
Just saying. HiTech trying to add to the game, but it might make a little sense to take a little away. I think a lot of folks issues are with these trees. (too damn many)
Coogan
Add you say? .....not a chance it's all been how to restrict GV movement in this game.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Wiley on November 15, 2017, 03:04:09 PM
No this incident happened this past Sunday, the one I'm talking about
Which... is still 5 days after HT posted about it being WIP.
Wiley.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bustr on November 15, 2017, 03:19:08 PM
If Hitech was restricting GV combat he wouldn't allow me to modify the clutter tiles to open up vistas for tank combat like in the screen shots below. And that is what I did to my new terrain Oceania. What I am not going to do is open up a 25 mile easy drive for a squad to drive cross country to get at a strat that has no GV spawn at it. Or the same for a strat up a mountain side I didn't place a GV spawn at.
How GV's are being impacted by terrain is the terrain builders choice of design of the micro terrain between the GV spawn and the location that spawn supports. This mean's it's how the terrain builder feels about the GV game or how much detail the person was wiling to put into checking the terrain after the conversion from AH2 to AH3. Hitech cannot personally visit every spawn and pass judgement on it. I doubt he even had a clue how much I thinned the trees on the agricultural tiles I used around feilds and towns on Oceania. From watching the spawns and listening to the spawn battle chatter, players are make good use of the opened up vistas to have tank battles.
Here are examples from my test terrain.
The agricultural tile used on Oceania before I thinned it with grass, and it was claustrophobic from the ground driving on it.
(https://s20.postimg.org/g8e8ghu3x/clutter01.jpg)
Thinned with grass and you will see every field on Oceania with this agrarian tile around it was thinned to enhance GV combat.
(https://s20.postimg.org/ynypdwfy5/clutter02.jpg)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: hitech on November 15, 2017, 03:22:57 PM
2.5 mile sector boxes that turn color if a vehicle is in the square, and you are within 25 miles or so of the area is currently appealing to me.
This way you still know some one is around, but you have a lot less information where except when they cross a sector line.
HiTech
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: SPKmes on November 15, 2017, 03:50:14 PM
No help if vehicle is sitting still. And also it locates the vehicle precisely if moving. Both go against the basic objective, hence nope.
HiTech
Since we know a vehicle or (something on the ground if no dar present) is in the area due to a flashing town/base.... would increasing the D range work? The trees are not a total block...if you can get the right angle you can see the icon of a sitting GV in trees... just D600 is a difficult distance to get the correct angles for this in some of the more densely grouped tree areas....take the storch... you can get that thing to get the right angles for most of these situations.....not all for sure but many..... this will also stop some of the death by wirb that is just waiting for a low flying con looking for the source.. 1.5 - 2k would help alleviate some of it On the GV side of the game though.... not sure... perhaps making it into thirds.... and I presume since the game can distinguish distance there could be a possibility of a shading change in conjunction with the distance... but it could be any were within a larger arc....if you get full red...the guy probably sleeping while waiting for the map to change or you have no purpose being in a GV because you are legally blind hahahaha...because full red means you are about to run over the sucker
I think a quarter may be too small of a section...really allows to pinpoint.... generally most GV's are like planes they come straight in..so you usually have a general direction anyway...
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: perdue3 on November 15, 2017, 04:00:56 PM
Give me a break, dude. If you do not want to shoot at things that shoot back, I suggest offline.
It's reducing tactics and options. And by that I don't mean the ole "hiding to make a base flash for 2 hours".
When attacking a base, most players used to come in directly from the spawn. Better, or more 'creative' players chose to divert and search for alternate approaches. Smart opponents on the other side may suspect and try to counter such moves by searching in other likely places. With the current quadrant, it's almost pointless. Now it will be all about speed and time, because you are so easy to locate without even looking.
When facing an overwhelming assault, a lone defender in a tank could try to use shoot and scoot tactics. Ambush, then relocate quickly. Now, that won't really work anymore unless they willfully ignore their GV dar. They know you are there, and they can quickly triangulate your position long before they come into firing range, even when you are shut down and completely out of sight. Better sit in a place with the best armor you can afford, because flanking the enemy units on the move is not an option if they can see the quadrant moving.
When the horde had just captured a base, sometimes some bold guys were able to grab bag the base from under their butts with a tank and a m3, while the horde lifted for the next target in line. Now they WILL know instantly it's not one of the remaining fighters but vehicles at the town.
As a defender, I'm not exactly happy about the reduced challenge of knowing exactly it's not GV making our field/town flash. Trying to find out "what's happening here?" and choosing my equipment accordingly. Yes, I know I can disable my quadrant, but there is little point to it when everyone else at the base does not.
In the past, adventurous players took their M3 went across one or more sectors to an enemy base without a GV spawn, to fool the guys looking for goons exclusively. 6k away from the defenders the clipboard will now scream VEHICLE!. And yet another thing I don't really have to worry now about anymore as a defender. This is why I also am against any kind of GV darbar. And I am NOT one of those m3 sneakers at all. I hunt them.
IMHO, there is a German word for this innovation: "Verschlimmbessern" - making things worse by trying to improve them.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 15, 2017, 04:35:53 PM
2.5 mile sector boxes that turn color if a vehicle is in the square, and you are within 25 miles or so of the area is currently appealing to me.
This way you still know some one is around, but you have a lot less information where except when they cross a sector line.
HiTech
I read somewhere that dar bars are intended to represent the period accurate tracking system where people observed aircraft presence and reported it to a central tracking authority that issued warnings and alerts about enemy activity. If this is accurate, then based on that model, why would you want a 25 mile range for the alert? Would not a pilot report activity the same way an observer would?
We have been complaining about the number of trees ever since AH 3 launched. It took only 1 day to implement this radar junk when 1 player spent almost an hour looking for me in some dense trees..........the solution is obvious ..........too many trees, and where are the roads........I mean they had roads in WW II why the heck do we not have them here.
No this incident happened this past Sunday, the one I'm talking about
We have not been complaining, you have. And the idea that HiTech would change anything about the game to compensate for your net effect on the outcome of the game is freaking absurd. Not to say you don't ever actually do anything but defend, but who freaking cares how long you, or anyone, hides in a tree, that's one less person to worry about shooting anything while in there. I am not talking target fixation, I am asking what level headed base taker would give a flying freak who is in any bushes? I fall asleep hiding in trees and wake up hours later with storches still searching and a handful of proxies. Again, who cares? Nothing captured, nothing lost, except by the other poor Bish who had to carry my eny idle burden. I've been doing the tanking thing a little over a year, same style and this radar thing is because of you. Thank you for populating your fantasy game with my identity.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Krusty on November 15, 2017, 04:37:59 PM
It's reducing tactics and options. And by that I don't mean the ole "hiding to make a base flash for 2 hours".
When attacking a base, most players used to come in directly from the spawn. Better, or more 'creative' players chose to divert and search for alternate approaches. Smart opponents on the other side may suspect and try to counter such moves by searching in other likely places. With the current quadrant, it's almost pointless. Now it will be all about speed and time, because you are so easy to locate without even looking.
When facing an overwhelming assault, a lone defender in a tank could try to use shoot and scoot tactics. Ambush, then relocate quickly. Now, that won't really work anymore unless they willfully ignore their GV dar. They know you are there, and they can quickly triangulate your position long before they come into firing range, even when you are shut down and completely out of sight. Better sit in a place with the best armor you can afford, because flanking the enemy units on the move is not an option if they can see the quadrant moving.
When the horde had just captured a base, sometimes some bold guys were able to grab bag the base from under their butts with a tank and a m3, while the horde lifted for the next target in line. Now they WILL know instantly it's not one of the remaining fighters but vehicles at the town.
As a defender, I'm not exactly happy about the reduced challenge of knowing exactly it's not GV making our field/town flash. Trying to find out "what's happening here?" and choosing my equipment accordingly. Yes, I know I can disable my quadrant, but there is little point to it when everyone else at the base does not.
In the past, adventurous players took their M3 went across one or more sectors to an enemy base without a GV spawn, to fool the guys looking for goons exclusively. 6k away from the defenders the clipboard will now scream VEHICLE!. And yet another thing I don't really have to worry now about anymore as a defender. This is why I also am against any kind of GV darbar. And I am NOT one of those m3 sneakers at all. I hunt them.
IMHO, there is a German word for this innovation: "Verschlimmbessern" - making things worse by trying to improve them.
I think some of those GV tactics waste time, and while maybe are fun for the person doing it, are just disruptive for others and don't help their team in any way. Not all of them, mind you, but sometimes GV players are literally just a nuisance.
What if, like in some scenarios and SEA setups, the GV quadrant were on a 2-minute delay? If you camp, you're caught. If you shoot and scoot, they only know where you were 2 minutes ago. Thoughts?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: thndregg on November 15, 2017, 04:43:31 PM
In the past, adventurous players took their M3 went across one or more sectors to an enemy base without a GV spawn, to fool the guys looking for goons exclusively.
I've done this in tanks and other vehicles. In some of these crazy cross country trips, it's not much different than the time it takes to do some long range heavy bombing. I love looking for ways that are outside of the "cattle chute" combat avenue. While I enjoy combat, I also enjoy attempting to open up another combat front. ;)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Spikes on November 15, 2017, 04:45:41 PM
It's reducing tactics and options. And by that I don't mean the ole "hiding to make a base flash for 2 hours".
When attacking a base, most players used to come in directly from the spawn. Better, or more 'creative' players chose to divert and search for alternate approaches. Smart opponents on the other side may suspect and try to counter such moves by searching in other likely places. With the current quadrant, it's almost pointless. Now it will be all about speed and time, because you are so easy to locate without even looking.
When facing an overwhelming assault, a lone defender in a tank could try to use shoot and scoot tactics. Ambush, then relocate quickly. Now, that won't really work anymore unless they willfully ignore their GV dar. They know you are there, and they can quickly triangulate your position long before they come into firing range, even when you are shut down and completely out of sight. Better sit in a place with the best armor you can afford, because flanking the enemy units on the move is not an option if they can see the quadrant moving.
When the horde had just captured a base, sometimes some bold guys were able to grab bag the base from under their butts with a tank and a m3, while the horde lifted for the next target in line. Now they WILL know instantly it's not one of the remaining fighters but vehicles at the town.
As a defender, I'm not exactly happy about the reduced challenge of knowing exactly it's not GV making our field/town flash. Trying to find out "what's happening here?" and choosing my equipment accordingly. Yes, I know I can disable my quadrant, but there is little point to it when everyone else at the base does not.
In the past, adventurous players took their M3 went across one or more sectors to an enemy base without a GV spawn, to fool the guys looking for goons exclusively. 6k away from the defenders the clipboard will now scream VEHICLE!. And yet another thing I don't really have to worry now about anymore as a defender. This is why I also am against any kind of GV darbar. And I am NOT one of those m3 sneakers at all. I hunt them.
IMHO, there is a German word for this innovation: "Verschlimmbessern" - making things worse by trying to improve them.
Is there also a word for making something worse by changing the wrong thing? I don't think this "change" was necessary at all, there have been plenty of good ideas brought up over multiple threads, and IMO this quadrant thing does nothing to help in any way.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 15, 2017, 05:34:13 PM
Give me a break, dude. If you do not want to shoot at things that shoot back, I suggest offline.
If you had any recent experience playing GVs in this game (I don't see any recent melee arena activity at all for "perdue3"), you would know that it's not that simple. In general, planes versus GVs is like squirrel hunters versus squirrels in this game (with a very few exceptions). GVs *have* to be able to hide, or be in a horde, or they die to planes. In contrast, single players can always count on landing kills in AH3, regardless of numbers, and without being in a group of other players.
Again, I don't see any game time for "perdue3" under the last 3 camps. Do you play under another handle (or do you play at all)???
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 15, 2017, 05:44:08 PM
Look up Perdweeb, Deacon.
Behold and despair.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 15, 2017, 05:48:54 PM
Not me Way. Score does not impress me much. But Deacon seeks to disparage the opinion of another player because he assumes that player does not play since he cant find his score.
The fact that that perd is actually currently ranked #1 overall is just the sweet cherry on this ironic cake.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bustr on November 15, 2017, 06:34:44 PM
Airfield and town setup that I did on Oceania. 2miles from the center of the airfeild to the center of the town. The white dots are the diameter of the random GV spawn area at 3 miles from the town center. I've adjusted the range circles to 2.5 miles. For a GV or a storch 2.5 miles takes a long time to cover. For a fighter or bomber, you will quickly be outside of the pickup range. In some ways a 2.5mile mini grid block will be inconvenient for combat aircraft, they will need a spotter in a GV\storch\tower\manned gun. By thinning out the farmland with grass, that makes it easier to locate a GV sitting in some trees without the GVDAR.
(https://s20.postimg.org/nin8fg8kt/clutter03.jpg)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 15, 2017, 06:43:22 PM
Not me Way. Score does not impress me much. But Deacon seeks to disparage the opinion of another player because he assumes that player does not play since he cant find his score.
The fact that that perd is actually currently ranked #1 overall is just the sweet cherry on this ironic cake.
It's not my fault he chooses to use several different IDs. So he plays. His comment was still ill-conceived, in that it is a red herring (as was yours). Nobody is asking for targets which don't shoot back; you guys can read, right? This is a game play and game balance discussion. BTW, I could care less about his "score"; for example if someone is a squad / horde player, it is meaningless.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 15, 2017, 07:36:57 PM
The real problem is that you GV'ers became so used to sneaking around with impunity from air attack that you are all crying bloody murder when HTC introduces a measure to increase the ability for aircraft engage GV's. All you pansies do is sneak bases or ambush other players - usually some form of spawn camp whack-a-mole, and then land your kills to get kudos form your equally cowardly cohorts. All glory and no guts.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: redcatcherb412 on November 15, 2017, 07:50:33 PM
The real problem is that you GV'ers became so used to sneaking around with impunity from air attack that you are all crying bloody murder when HTC introduces a measure to increase the ability for aircraft engage GV's. All you pansies do is sneak bases or ambush other players - usually some form of spawn camp whack-a-mole, and then land your kills to get kudos form your equally cowardly cohorts. All glory and no guts.
Sounds like somebody needs some salve to soothe getting main gunned by a t34 :rock :banana:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 15, 2017, 08:28:15 PM
The real problem is that you GV'ers became so used to sneaking around with impunity from air attack that you are all crying bloody murder when HTC introduces a measure to increase the ability for aircraft engage GV's. All you pansies do is sneak bases or ambush other players - usually some form of spawn camp whack-a-mole, and then land your kills to get kudos form your equally cowardly cohorts. All glory and no guts.
The real problem is meaningless posts on a thread about quadrant radar and it's merits. The fact that this poster has never driven a gv goes without saying but the question is, what could be his possible reason for wanting to add to this thread, given the fact by his own admission - unless he includes himself in the group of pansies - he is obviously uninformed about the subject. A chance to snipe back at the figurative main gunner does indeed seem a likely reason to post here.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: toddbobe on November 15, 2017, 08:49:42 PM
BTW the range of the vehicle radar is adjustable for observer,vehicle,plane and flack independently.
Also the quadrant is my first attempt at displaying some type of info that vehicles are in the area. I've wanted to add some type of display since AH3 was released, the reason is because of the increased tree density making if difficult to even know if a vehicle is in the area.
I'm convinced that more info was needed simply showing that a vehicle is some where to be found to fight in visible range. So any suggestion how to display that a vehicle is in the area(3 - 5 mile radius), with out giving a precise location will be considered.
HiTech
Sir:
May I suggest the V-dar for the M8 and Jeeps only. How and increasing the range of sound of GV's. I offer this because it has a counter measure. I will often fly over a friendly GV so my engine noise will cover the sound of the friendly GV. I think this will encourage teamwork.
Todd
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 15, 2017, 08:55:40 PM
The real problem is meaningless posts on a thread about quadrant radar and it's merits. The fact that this poster has never driven a gv goes without saying but the question is, what could be his possible reason for wanting to add to this thread, given the fact by his own admission - unless he includes himself in the group of pansies - he is obviously uninformed about the subject. A chance to snipe back at the figurative main gunner does indeed seem a likely reason to post here.
I don't GV in this game because there is hardly ever any dynamic aspect to doing it. You either set up an ambush and farm easy kills or feed the tards camping your spawn. It's lame either way and it has been lame long before you showed up here to be the poster child for dirtbag GVing.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: perdue3 on November 15, 2017, 09:13:30 PM
If you had any recent experience playing GVs in this game (I don't see any recent melee arena activity at all for "perdue3"), you would know that it's not that simple. In general, planes versus GVs is like squirrel hunters versus squirrels in this game (with a very few exceptions). GVs *have* to be able to hide, or be in a horde, or they die to planes. In contrast, single players can always count on landing kills in AH3, regardless of numbers, and without being in a group of other players.
Again, I don't see any game time for "perdue3" under the last 3 camps. Do you play under another handle (or do you play at all)???
My ingame ID is perdweeb. I have played GV's this tour.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Halo46 on November 15, 2017, 09:55:47 PM
I don't GV in this game because there is hardly ever any dynamic aspect to doing it. You either set up an ambush and farm easy kills or feed the tards camping your spawn. It's lame either way and it has been lame long before you showed up here to be the poster child for dirtbag GVing.
Sorry dude, you continue adding zero to the arguments concerning the OP. You and your CO have only hostile comments about how others play, nothing else. You should tone down or better yet, contribute. Now, there are three of us not contributing to the discussion. I will try to change that.
I find this attempt laudable, but the execution deplorable. Another measure is going to have to be thought of in my opinion. This, the HUD, and the people with nothing nice to say are factors keeping me from renewing my subscription. Just a bad players opinion about the game.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 15, 2017, 10:09:54 PM
I don't GV in this game because there is hardly ever any dynamic aspect to doing it. You either set up an ambush and farm easy kills or feed the tards camping your spawn. It's lame either way and it has been lame long before you showed up here to be the poster child for dirtbag GVing.
You actually make a good point there. GVing in AH3 can and should be improved to encourage active maneuvering and tactics by GVs. However, HTC for reasons I don't understand has been modifying the game to make this less and less possible. I could go into detail if you are interested. Note however, making GVs easy meat for planes is not the answer.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 15, 2017, 10:14:44 PM
Sorry dude, you continue adding zero to the arguments concerning the OP. You and your CO have only hostile comments about how others play, nothing else. You should tone down or better yet, contribute. Now, there are three of us not contributing to the discussion. I will try to change that.
I find this attempt laudable, but the execution deplorable. Another measure is going to have to be thought of in my opinion. This, the HUD, and the people with nothing nice to say are factors keeping me from renewing my subscription. Just a bad players opinion about the game.
I've offered constructive criticisms of the GV game in the past and made suggestions to remedy the imbalance found in how aircraft interact with GV's. My suggestions were met with complaints from GV'ers worried that their EZ mode play style would be ruined by them. So yeah, I am relishing their current cries about the vehicle quadrant. If I had my way, they'd be off far worse.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: molybdenum on November 15, 2017, 10:40:21 PM
I've offered constructive criticisms of the GV game in the past and made suggestions to remedy the imbalance found in how aircraft interact with GV's. My suggestions were met with complaints from GV'ers worried that their EZ mode play style would be ruined by them. So yeah, I am relishing their current cries about the vehicle quadrant. If I had my way, they'd be off far worse.
Few players that habitually drive GVs use them exclusively, or even mostly. Yet GVing is an important part of the game to them. So you're in favor of pissing off a segment of the population that contributes to the AH community as a whole (land, sea, and air) despite our current low game population? Is that really what you want?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 15, 2017, 10:49:52 PM
You actually make a good point there. GVing in AH3 can and should be improved to encourage active maneuvering and tactics by GVs. However, HTC for reasons I don't understand has been modifying the game to make this less and less possible. I could go into detail if you are interested. Note however, making GVs easy meat for planes is not the answer.
Except GVing in AH2 was not much different that it is now. The AH3 trees only make it easier to be successful in going unseen than before. Otherwise, the camp or be camped mentality has always been present. It's been this way since I started and actually tried learning how to GV. I very quickly realized that the GV game does not jive with my beliefs about combat or fun gameplay. Things became even worse when the Storch was introduced and the icon rules changed.
I watched the air war stagnate at it's lowest level - GV hunting. It became rare to see an Il-2 or A-20 when there used to be many. It was too difficult to spot the GV;s in general and the Wirbelwinds had a field day blasting the low level GV killers and the fighters trying to engage them. And soon there was nobody hunting the Il-2's or A-20's because there were none to be found in the first place. I think HiTech hoped that change would encourage dynamic use of GV's in open battle, but it just enabled further use of them in camping and sneaking. As a result of the icon change was that suddenly base capture via GV became a viable option at airfields and what was usually done with missions of easy meat pony or P-38 raids followed by goons became M3 troop rushes following a colliope leveling town with rockets.
So I agree that making GV's easy meat for planes won't help stimulate GV battles of tactics and maneuver, but it would generate more air combat when we need that the most.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: hotard on November 15, 2017, 11:07:33 PM
This is the biggest pile of crap in the game. Might as well just put flashing lights on the gv's who was whinning for this anyway?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 15, 2017, 11:08:14 PM
Few players that habitually drive GVs use them exclusively, or even mostly. Yet GVing is an important part of the game to them. So you're in favor of pissing off a segment of the population that contributes to the AH community as a whole (land, sea, and air) despite our current low game population? Is that really what you want?
You misinterpret my desire to make it harder for GV'ers to do their thing as some desire to grief them. What I want, is to restore the basic level of the air war that was lost when the GV icon rules changed.
There are 2 separate facets to my dislike of GV'ing
1. Ambush Whack-a-mole tactics are lame
2. GVing has become the driving force in the overall war effort at the determent of the air war.
I can't fix number 1. But it was possible to break a spawn camp with enough aircraft.
Now with item 2, reverting the icon rules back to the old way would be a good first step, but I'd also heavily perk the Wirbelwind. Putting a target on the backs of the GV'ers is a good thing for the overall game as it would encourage more air attacks against GV's and more fighter cover to defend them.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Dundee on November 15, 2017, 11:13:21 PM
The real problem is that you GV'ers became so used to sneaking around with impunity from air attack that you are all crying bloody murder when HTC introduces a measure to increase the ability for aircraft engage GV's. All you pansies do is sneak bases or ambush other players - usually some form of spawn camp whack-a-mole, and then land your kills to get kudos form your equally cowardly cohorts. All glory and no guts.
Really constructive ......with all the childish name calling....then again you might be a child
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 1stpar3 on November 15, 2017, 11:13:50 PM
I am torn on this. It was very seldom occurrence that I couldnt find a GV, but it did happen. Saw a few pretty good ideas on TWEAKS for this. This evening, on most bases with Vehicle spawns and GV activity, it was SUPER easy to know which spawn the GVS were coming from. Most of the spawn points directly lined up with the "quadrant" that would light up. So, maybe use the "quadrant" in same way as "dar bar"? 2 GVs and one section lights up...1 more and 2 light up? Now if there was a way to randomize which quadrant lights up first, as to not give away exact spawn to check first? Its only been 2 days, jury is still deliberating, but in no way a hung jury. This sure does cut down on ALL the wasted man hours wondering if the base is flashing because of attack...or CYBRO doing his thing! :x Maybe even have the "Quadrant" light up with landed C47s? YUP, sneaky little buggers NOTAR a KRILLEN parked a Goon, and I couldnt find it. So with full disclosure, thats why I ask :furious Flew right over him, and I spot GVS all the time, BUGGERS :x
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 27th on November 16, 2017, 02:00:18 AM
I don't GV in this game because there is hardly ever any dynamic aspect to doing it. You either set up an ambush and farm easy kills or feed the tards camping your spawn. It's lame either way and it has been lame long before you showed up here to be the poster child for dirtbag GVing.
505 guy, you've asked for this. In answering my statement about meaningless posts, you further define yourself as being completely uninformed on the subject. FYI "I don't GV" translates into "I have no direct knowledge of GV," on a thread that is essentially about GV's. How would you convince people that you know how "an ambush" is "set up"? That it isn't in reality (virtual reality) as hard to accomplish as the people who supposedly do it feel it is? The term "feed the tards camping your spawn," must be some sort of personal slang, there are so many possible interpretations that it is meaningless, thus contributing to the meaningless post observation. Since you are unaware of the gv aspect of the game, it raises the assumption that you are misinformed about the extreme variety and depth of the game. This statement in particular:
What I want, is to restore the basic level of the air war that was lost when the GV icon rules changed.
demonstrates that you are unwilling to embrace the new AH and want to revert to some simpler, halcyon version of the game, likely because you feel overwhelmed and unable to master these new aspects. Creating a personal conflict can seem like a valid diversion from one's perceived inadequacies and the attempt to address me with a derogatory term can be better understood from that perspective.
The only reason that I can see for 505 posting here is an affectation for negative attention and since he provides nothing in return for these carefully considered sentences, this is his last reply.
He would first have to be on topic, in order to stay there.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Vinkman on November 16, 2017, 07:53:52 AM
For what it's worth, I found the AHIII formula, before the 'quadrant' pretty perfect. GV should be hard to find from high flying planes. Planes are fast and cover a lot of ground. flying low around a town or base seemed perfectly appropriate.
They were find-able, but it was perfectly difficult. Airplanes had too much advantage when GV hunting, and the change in icon range and the new trees created the perfect balance.
Its my opinion that the GV fights are better, because the planes don't come out and end the fight so easily. So people are willing to invest the time in GV missions.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 16, 2017, 08:13:02 AM
Are you kidding? Until he removes it, the only thing I am driving is M3's and while preventing takes, basically any situation when I can feel reasonably confident b*mbtards are not able to use the clipboard effectively.
If you wanted to end GV assaults by all but the foolhardy, you've done so.
Maybe we could have some sort of quadrant radar strat, so people could at least hope to have a chance - and maybe a storch strat while we're at it?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: hitech on November 16, 2017, 09:00:30 AM
I just shortened the plane range to 200 yards.
HiTech
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: DubiousKB on November 16, 2017, 09:07:10 AM
Does this mean the size of the quadrant(s) icon will also be smaller on/around my plane icon? First time i seen it, I thought there was an independence day ship moving into radar. SO MUCH RED! :eek:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Mister Fork on November 16, 2017, 09:13:46 AM
Means that's much less magical now. You can use it to find hidden tanks, but you must suspect them to be somewhere in the first place, and you gotta have to actively look for them again - when you are in a plane, that is.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 1stpar3 on November 16, 2017, 12:14:47 PM
Thanks,HiTech! That cleared up A LOT of the issues I had with this "Quadrant" thing. I like a challenge, and it was fairly easy to spot tanks most of the time. Of coarse, there were times that made me want to pull my hair out. Dang CYBRO :neener: I like GVing in AH3, well like it more than in 2. The trees give a chance to evade at least. In AH2 I was usually dead 2 seconds before I spawned in. With this new "Quadrant" it took away some of the challenge in finding GVs. This tweak however, will do nicely. It keeps the best parts of the "where is he" challenge and saves what hair I have left, by giving some means to find a sneaky bugger. Still have to find them, so its not just given to you. Thank you, hated to even respond so early to this thread..was only second day. :cheers:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bustr on November 16, 2017, 02:24:29 PM
Many wirbles will thank you because human nature will be to rely on the 200yd GVDAR versus using eyes to look. Wonder if wirble drivers will start waiting until 200 to open up and not give away their position which is how most are found by fast moving planes.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: toddbobe on November 16, 2017, 02:47:09 PM
May I suggest making troop carriers exempt? These GV's are so thin skinned help finding puts them a greater disadvantage.
Todd
Or reduce detection by half...
Coogan
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Krusty on November 16, 2017, 03:06:53 PM
They did that already. Next you're going to make them invisible to enemy players. You'll make them invulnerable to any AAA. You'll make troops invulnerable to ground fire, and you'll make them kill Tiger2s by just looking at them, and able to destroy the sun with the power of The Force.
Give it a break, eh? GVs are already too coddled as-is. Halving the icon distance was a massive double standard and now you want to do that again? Well in that case I want 20k view distance on my C.202 and 10,000 20mm raounds on my Fw190 without any weight penalties. Oh, and I think my spitfire should stop consuming fuel... Like... EVER.
:D :D :D
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Dundee on November 16, 2017, 03:12:12 PM
They did that already. Next you're going to make them invisible to enemy players. You'll make them invulnerable to any AAA. You'll make troops invulnerable to ground fire, and you'll make them kill Tiger2s by just looking at them, and able to destroy the sun with the power of The Force.
Give it a break, eh? GVs are already too coddled as-is. Halving the icon distance was a massive double standard and now you want to do that again? Well in that case I want 20k view distance on my C.202 and 10,000 20mm raounds on my Fw190 without any weight penalties. Oh, and I think my spitfire should stop consuming fuel... Like... EVER.
:D :D :D
too coddled as-is, Krusty <-------------- doesn't GV at all, wouldn't know all the added difficulties AH3 saddled the GV's with
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 100Coogn on November 16, 2017, 03:21:30 PM
They did that already. Next you're going to make them invisible to enemy players. You'll make them invulnerable to any AAA. You'll make troops invulnerable to ground fire, and you'll make them kill Tiger2s by just looking at them, and able to destroy the sun with the power of The Force.
Give it a break, eh? GVs are already too coddled as-is. Halving the icon distance was a massive double standard and now you want to do that again? Well in that case I want 20k view distance on my C.202 and 10,000 20mm raounds on my Fw190 without any weight penalties. Oh, and I think my spitfire should stop consuming fuel... Like... EVER.
:D :D :D
pffft.. Who fly's a Spit? noob :rofl
Coogan
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Krusty on November 16, 2017, 03:28:20 PM
too coddled as-is, Krusty <-------------- doesn't GV at all, wouldn't know all the added difficulties AH3 saddled the GV's with
You can't use that argument. It's a straw man and it doesn't matter. Even if I don't GV much NOW, I still see and feel its impact as I'm trying to fly and fight. Don't get all elitist and say "you can't comment unless you got rank #1 on GVs the last 10 tours in a row" because it only hurts your credibility, not mine.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: popeye on November 16, 2017, 03:52:09 PM
Many wirbles will thank you because human nature will be to rely on the 200yd GVDAR versus using eyes to look.
I was testing the GVDAR when it was first introduced.... Follow this coordinate, until it rotates, then turn and follow this coordinate... tank should be right here --- PING PING PING BOOM! :O
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Becinhu on November 16, 2017, 04:11:00 PM
I have no issue with icon range as long as the 10 ton tank isn’t invisible in an open field until 200 yards. They shouldn’t have Klingon cloaking devices while out in the open. Along the same lines as a c47 being invisible on the ground if its engines are off.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: USCH on November 16, 2017, 04:57:00 PM
I think this will all but kill tank town.........wtg
it has all but killed tnking period.. tanking was on the way out anyway imo.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: eddiek on November 16, 2017, 05:35:05 PM
I'll chime in with my two cents worth, and maybe offer HT some food for thought....... I was against the reduced icon range to spot GV's even back in AH2, but I went along with it for a while, then real life took me away from the game for a couple years. I did some GV stuff back then, and do it every once in a while now that I am back. What if: For AA GV's (M16, Wirbs, and Osties) the icon range was extended, and made equidistant? If not 6K like it was for so long in AH2, then how about 3K, with the condition that the AA units cannot ID enemy planes for that same distance? After all, their purpose was to engage enemy aircraft, to even the playing field a bit. Other armored GV's, the tanks, set it to 1.5 or 2K. All they have for AA defense is a pintle mounted MG, so they could use a bit of help in evading detection. Jeeps, M3's, 251's etc, and "thin skinned" vehicles icon range set to 1K or below. They are helpless against even MG fire, and could use even more help in evasion and escape. Dunno if it would be a nightmare for HT to code, or if it would even be possible, but it would make sense to even things up for the AA units vs the enemy aircraft. Again, just my thoughts on the matter........
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 16, 2017, 05:48:43 PM
You can't use that argument. It's a straw man and it doesn't matter. Even if I don't GV much NOW, I still see and feel its impact as I'm trying to fly and fight. Don't get all elitist and say "you can't comment unless you got rank #1 on GVs the last 10 tours in a row" because it only hurts your credibility, not mine.
Nailed it.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bustr on November 16, 2017, 07:27:21 PM
Can I get a list of "perceived" things the AH GV game has been saddled with that are supposed to be killing the GV game. I've heard the root cause for almost 15 years, "Hitech is personally doing this to screw GVs because he won't consult us before he screws us". Please just itemize the things so I can look at it from a terrain builder's perspective. I saw on Oceania at A61 an AH2 textbook GV spawn battle the other night that lasted for about 2 hours. So aside from programming things only Hitech can address, I've attempted to address up to now what the terrain editor allows.
1. - 2. - 3. - 4. - . . . . .
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: eddiek on November 16, 2017, 08:27:27 PM
Can I get a list of "perceived" things the AH GV game has been saddled with that are supposed to be killing the GV game. I've heard the root cause for almost 15 years, "Hitech is personally doing this to screw GVs because he won't consult us before he screws us". Please just itemize the things so I can look at it from a terrain builder's perspective. I saw on Oceania at A61 an AH2 textbook GV spawn battle the other night that lasted for about 2 hours. So aside from programming things only Hitech can address, I've attempted to address up to now what the terrain editor allows.
1. - 2. - 3. - 4. - . . . . .
bustr, NOTHING is killing the AH GV game. From what I've read on here over time, the players who GV the most asked HT for, and received, special consideration some years ago with the reduced icon range. They got used to getting what they wanted, which seemed to be insulation, if not immunity, from air attacks. Just for fun, I wish HT would restore the old settings we had for years in AH/AH2.....6K icons going both ways. The GV's and aircraft could spot one another at the same time. It's a combat game, make it about combat, not about being able to sneak around undetected. Barring that, if it's possible for HT to do, recode the GV's so their discoverability by air units is directly proportional to their intended use. AA units should not have so large an advantage over their aerial counterparts.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: JunkyII on November 16, 2017, 08:40:50 PM
+1 for reverting back to when we didn't have this...the problems with people in GVs is a resupply problem....tanks and whirbs are fine...even if they are driving hitting undefended towns.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 16, 2017, 09:44:20 PM
You can't use that argument. It's a straw man and it doesn't matter. Even if I don't GV much NOW, I still see and feel its impact as I'm trying to fly and fight. Don't get all elitist and say "you can't comment unless you got rank #1 on GVs the last 10 tours in a row" because it only hurts your credibility, not mine.
It is a valid argument, though. Because you don't GV in the current game, you seem to think that GVs and aircraft are equivalent platforms, but they are not. Because of this misconception, you object to differences in sighting distances, etc., as you equate those differences to unfair advantage for GVs, which it is not. If you did GV enough (including when the numbers are against you), you would realize that invisibility is the GVs only defence against aircraft. The average (non Wirble) GV is to the average aircraft as is a deer to a deer hunter. Because of this imbalance in capability to harm each other, the contest between the average (non Wirble) GV and the average aircraft is not really "combat", but more of a shooting gallery thing. This becomes evident to those of us who GV a lot, especially if we do so individually (outside of horde base grabs).
And keep in mind when I say this to you (in a mildly critical way, admittedly), that I have been on both sides of the fence. Just yesterday I was searching for a single GV (which turned out to be a Wirble) using a plane. Because I know how to conduct such a search, I quickly found the Wirble (which was stationary and not firing BTW) using my plane. I was not damaged. No big deal, and no rules change nerfing GVs needed. (BTW, the technique is to use a fast fighter, and fly just skimming the tops of the trees, which usually allows one to see under the tree canopies. The fast fighter (as opposed to a Storch) allows many runs, giving more chances to get that critical LOS revealing the GV. The very low altitude prevents the GV from lining up a shot, especially if the plane avoids predictable lines of approach. One then calls out the sighting to other GVs or ground attack aircraft.)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: buddyshamrock on November 16, 2017, 11:13:32 PM
Did they have this ability in WW2? If they did ... great we should have it ... if not ... well dump it. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: JimmyD3 on November 16, 2017, 11:49:34 PM
Don't need the new quadrant, but my turning it off is not the answer, my opponent can still choose to use it. That would put me at a disadvantage.
With AH3 I do not have any problem locating gv's coming off the spawn once they are within sound range. I have no problem locating and eliminating spawn campers, as Kilroy so eloquently pointed out. All the needed tools are already available, you just need to learn how use them. bomb****s are going to be bomb****s, we are not going to get away from that, and it IS a good defensive technique. Not being able to see an M3 buried into the center of some tree's when you are skimming the tree tops is just tough.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 17, 2017, 06:37:20 AM
200 yds is to short. :aok
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: lunatic1 on November 17, 2017, 06:52:42 AM
You can't use that argument. It's a straw man and it doesn't matter. Even if I don't GV much NOW, I still see and feel its impact as I'm trying to fly and fight. Don't get all elitist and say "you can't comment unless you got rank #1 on GVs the last 10 tours in a row" because it only hurts your credibility, not mine.
Oh you can comment, but doing so demonstrates your ability to ignore the fact you have no authority on the subject. It is clear that you feel its impact, heck I feel for you pumpkin just reading your emotive passage, but it doesn't even occur to you that you might want to give something more credible, more measurable in terms of game impact, than "feelings." -- and I didn't even have to get all elitist, unless that is your term for someone who uses grade school grammar.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: lunatic1 on November 17, 2017, 07:12:09 AM
I may be wrong here. if you don't gv then you shouldn't be posting here-because you are reading and reposting what others are saying and pushing the argument to incite and forcing the argument on. stop what you are doing here. non gv'ers need not post here. :joystick:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: lunatic1 on November 17, 2017, 07:17:16 AM
See rule #4
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Krusty on November 17, 2017, 07:30:30 AM
Too many vocal trolls crying out against what they think is some kind of nerf. Not even giving it the time of day or acknowledging there might be a problem that this addresses. This'll get nowhere.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: JunkyII on November 17, 2017, 08:34:27 AM
Too many vocal trolls crying out against what they think is some kind of nerf. Not even giving it the time of day or acknowledging there might be a problem that this addresses. This'll get nowhere.
What's The problem it addresses? GVs camping runways?
That's a player problem, if a Furball is going on and someone gets in without any of them noticing...that's on them...not the tank pushing in to suppress the field.
M3s hiding? I don't see this often...what I do see is a stream of resupply M3s dropping supplies outside of town and getting town out of white flag...this doesn't help with that.
GVs steam rolling bases in off hour time? Up a Tank or a A20 and go get you some.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Flayed1 on November 17, 2017, 08:47:33 AM
While I did find it nice to know a GV was in the area to hunt with my Jagdpanther, I do think it made it to easy. Simply wobble down the divide on the locator and poof what do you know tank right in front of you. Really kinda kills the cat and mouse aspect, or much of the possibility of someone sneaking by while you're out hunting. While I don't want them to get by me, it's still part of the hunting game and right now that's all but dead. As an example, the other night I spotted a T-34 running away from a base we had just captured. I started to chase him down in an M-8 and got discoed when I was about to fire. I log back on after a min and of course he's gone but with the magical pie I just followed the line right to where he had shut down in a bush to wait for us but I saw his tracks first under the leaves.
Also I was concerned about the impact of this for those of us that do the ocational long range M3 run to a base with no spawn to throw off the enemy with a crazy long range M3 instead of a goon. I am concerned that all the time spent in a clandestine operation of this sort, which I think should be a viable option if someone has the patience to do it, is now almost pointless... The shortening of the Aircraft range is good I think, so someone would have to be pretty low as they fly over to say "Hey there is a GV way the hell out here!" But range on GV's and in the tower would put a big flashing light on anyone getting anywhere close to a base... Sooo if we must have this I feel that shortening range on everything and make it a Full dot on your Icon that would simply state there is a GV somewhere in this radius instead of being able to tell right where they are....
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 17, 2017, 11:12:02 AM
I have to continue to pan the quadrant dar. Even at 200 yards, there is no vertical limit that I can see. All a noob has to do, I watched this several times, is to find me, climb lazily while the quadrant radar spins on the clipboard - confirming they are directly over me, turn, go vertical see me again and drop. No skill at all except reading TomTom. You must remove any sort of directional indication, seriously, what is the goal here.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Vinkman on November 17, 2017, 11:46:06 AM
I hadn't realized until I played yesterday that the radar work for vehicles. I thought it was just for planes finding vehicles. I don't think I like it for GVs finding GVs. but maybe that's a rush judgement. I will play more with it and weigh back in.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 1stpar3 on November 17, 2017, 06:46:06 PM
Same here,Vink. I thought the RED END SORTIE was enough for Gv on GV :aok Jury is still out though :cheers:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: EagleDNY on November 17, 2017, 07:42:55 PM
Why bother getting up a Storch and helping out the side when the quadrant just allows the tankers to figure it out for themselves? I'd be more in favor of inching up the icon range on GVs based on their size, and really don't worry about the guy stopped and camping. The flashing base or city and the red end sortie tells you he is out there, so if you want to go looking for him up a Storch and have at it. The simple fix for spawn campers is to have the tanks gun actually create a puff of smoke/dust/dirt like the real thing when it fires. That can be seen for a bit after he fires, so somebody will figure out where he is.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 1stpar3 on November 18, 2017, 12:28:42 AM
Guys, please keep in mind that this is just an experiment. Like the "M3 troop suspended" thing last tour. Yes, its hard to really judge tone and intent in written text, but some of these posts stink of just pure contempt and hostility towards change. Pretty sure that we all pretty much feel the same about this community, so I take perceived hostility with a grain of salt. IMO, we should be thankful that HighTech at least puts in some effort to address concerns and try new ideas to improve a players experience! He really doesnt need to do this, so I appreciate his involvement in that regard :rock Constructive criticism is one thing, but all I ask is keep an open mind!
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 18, 2017, 12:54:26 AM
Maybe a dar bar but for tanks for would be more appropriate? Just a thought.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: asterix on November 18, 2017, 01:17:39 AM
My first impression is that the vehicle quadrat rocks! maybe it is a new thing and people just want to try it out and do new things or something. But gv action yesterday was much faster and more the way I like it. Saw less successful camping and more moving around. People were still upping Storches or giving help in other planes. Did some gv hunting in cannon equipped planes and did not see a quadrant once when having clipboard open. Either saw an icon first and fixated on that or gv stopped below trees and did not see anything. Did not see any negative aspects yet.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 18, 2017, 05:18:33 AM
The directional indicator has got to go. All a b*mbtard has to do is get a whiff of you and then climb in a slow circle with the quadrant dar spinning, that way he knows he is right over you without ever having to identify tree groupings or landmarks. Then, once he has enough speed for a nice drop, say 1500'/2k, he noses over, again looking for that spinning quadrant, knowing your model will pop in the center of his screen, voila, drop, pow.
You have completely removed skill from the practice of dive bombing. What is the idea of not having a vertical range limit on the thing?
Here's two videos I recorded yesterday. Notice that both these guys are flying at about 2000' looking for gv's. They are not swooping low to find icons, they scan around until they pick up a dar quadrant, go into a turning climb and drop. Notice as each plane climbs, he makes turning corrections that would correspond to indications from a rotational direction indicator. The pony driver, Squanto, a great pilot but not really known for his dive bomb expertise, is clearly becoming more comfortable with the new arcadian enhancement.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Copprhed on November 18, 2017, 06:20:52 AM
I have to continue to pan the quadrant dar. Even at 200 yards, there is no vertical limit that I can see. All a noob has to do, I watched this several times, is to find me, climb lazily while the quadrant radar spins on the clipboard - confirming they are directly over me, turn, go vertical see me again and drop. No skill at all except reading TomTom. You must remove any sort of directional indication, seriously, what is the goal here.
To find and kill campers like you.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Chilli on November 18, 2017, 06:59:30 AM
Killroy,
You must find this annoying, with dar or no dar present. Rooks knew of your presence regardless, because you had shut down an important spawn, and was broadcast over Range Channel (at least) this is what you were doing.
Some of the players in Aces High 3 have done quite well with the "ground game" and with the LTars no longer being an obstacle, I think that this is a good thing.
What I still find extremely annoying from a "flight first" point of view, is the amount of time and energy that it consumes just locating the tin can sitting under a tree. :old:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 18, 2017, 08:06:08 AM
It's interesting the biggest vocal opponent to this is the one that would literally sit under a bush for an hour to avoid detection. This is the type of player it was introduced for. So your repeated vocality is an indication that Hitech has made a good adjustment to the game. Keep up the good work HTC! :aok
PS-200 yard is too short for the GV quadrant.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: The Fugitive on November 18, 2017, 08:50:56 AM
First, I wouldn't use a film to prove anything unless you have the pilots view. Using your film while in a vehicle and jumping into his plane only shows they circled. Its how I locate vehicles always. With out seeing what views the divebomber was using you dont KNOW what he was looking at. Some people are good at divebombing. Some people were good at avoiding combat in a combat game. It looks like this change may have helped change that. Only time will tell.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Lusche on November 18, 2017, 09:47:55 AM
But by the way, aren't you the one who just asked for the SB's not to flash when an enemy is near? :)
Lusche you answer when you are not called. Rest easy Snail. :aok The SB is a separate flight/Map issue and can be discussed there, it has nothing to do with GV's.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 18, 2017, 10:12:29 AM
First, I wouldn't use a film to prove anything unless you have the pilots view. Using your film while in a vehicle and jumping into his plane only shows they circled. Its how I locate vehicles always. With out seeing what views the divebomber was using you dont KNOW what he was looking at. Some people are good at divebombing. Some people were good at avoiding combat in a combat game. It looks like this change may have helped change that. Only time will tell.
You can use films for whatever you like. It is extremely difficult to quantify into demonstrable examples what is clear in game. Based on that, you can clearly see the F6F flying well above tree top. When Snargly's wirble kills the A-20 in the foreground below, they are barely visible. This is obvious in the video. You know how to dive bomb. You find a target, you identify ground markings and you climb up, usually looking back to maintain visual contact with the location, turn and dive on it. Watch how these guys do it. They circle high, making slight course corrections. Look at the F6F. At 00:13, he makes a course correction, as if he were on a north/south course, and his indicator was showing I was in the southwest quadrant, so he turns toward me. As he passes, the indicator would then swing to show me in the northwest quadrant. At 00:17 he makes the reverse of the move, as if to again line up the quadrant. When it swings to the east of his position he knows he has passed me and can begin his circling climb. At 00:30 while in a circling climb, he makes a slight course correction, again at 00:41, to make sure the dar quadrant rotates on his clipboard as he climbs to confirm I am directly beneath him. At 00:48, right after that course correction, like a ballistic warhead, he goes into as steep a dive as possible, towards what? Do I have a big glaring strobe on my hood? Apparently, as we'll see. At 00:54, right at the edge of his gunsight, my tank appears, watch the video, it is unmistakable. The ONLY way he could have known to dive from that altitude exactly there was the indicator.
It's interesting the biggest vocal opponent to this is the one that would literally sit under a bush for an hour to avoid detection. This is the type of player it was introduced for.
What is interesting is that you would take it upon yourself to assign motive to someone else's actions. Project much? You are mistaken in my case, I will let HiTech speak for himself. If I'd intended to avoid detection, I would play Minecraft, next?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Delirium on November 18, 2017, 10:19:17 AM
Why do GV operators want to compete independently against aircraft? Has anyone ever read a history book?
Before the GV community attacks me about the new quadrant, armor would frequently use roads and only use overland movement for attack or hiding. In AH, GVs can go full speed over any terrain and this gives them an unfair advantage.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 18, 2017, 10:30:11 AM
You can use films for whatever you like. It is extremely difficult to quantify into demonstrable examples what is clear in game. Based on that, you can clearly see the F6F flying well above tree top. When Snargly's wirble kills the A-20 in the foreground below, they are barely visible. This is obvious in the video. You know how to dive bomb. You find a target, you identify ground markings and you climb up, usually looking back to maintain visual contact with the location, turn and dive on it. Watch how these guys do it. They circle high, making slight course corrections. Look at the F6F. At 00:13, he makes a course correction, as if he were on a north/south course, and his indicator was showing I was in the southwest quadrant, so he turns toward me. As he passes, the indicator would then swing to show me in the northwest quadrant. At 00:17 he makes the reverse of the move, as if to again line up the quadrant. When it swings to the east of his position he knows he has passed me and can begin his circling climb. At 00:30 while in a circling climb, he makes a slight course correction, again at 00:41, to make sure the dar quadrant rotates on his clipboard as he climbs to confirm I am directly beneath him. At 00:48, right after that course correction, like a ballistic warhead, he goes into as steep a dive as possible, towards what? Do I have a big glaring strobe on my hood? Apparently, as we'll see. At 00:54, right at the edge of his gunsight, my tank appears, watch the video, it is unmistakable. The ONLY way he could have known to dive from that altitude exactly there was the indicator. What is interesting is that you would take it upon yourself to assign motive to someone else's actions. Project much? You are mistaken in my case, I will let HiTech speak for himself. If I'd intended to avoid detection, I would play Minecraft, next?
Pre quadrant you have actually yakked on 200 about telling Waystin2 that I am not moving until he leaves or some sort of drivel. Hiding... Next?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: The Fugitive on November 18, 2017, 11:07:55 AM
You can use films for whatever you like. It is extremely difficult to quantify into demonstrable examples what is clear in game. Based on that, you can clearly see the F6F flying well above tree top. When Snargly's wirble kills the A-20 in the foreground below, they are barely visible. This is obvious in the video. You know how to dive bomb. You find a target, you identify ground markings and you climb up, usually looking back to maintain visual contact with the location, turn and dive on it. Watch how these guys do it. They circle high, making slight course corrections. Look at the F6F. At 00:13, he makes a course correction, as if he were on a north/south course, and his indicator was showing I was in the southwest quadrant, so he turns toward me. As he passes, the indicator would then swing to show me in the northwest quadrant. At 00:17 he makes the reverse of the move, as if to again line up the quadrant. When it swings to the east of his position he knows he has passed me and can begin his circling climb. At 00:30 while in a circling climb, he makes a slight course correction, again at 00:41, to make sure the dar quadrant rotates on his clipboard as he climbs to confirm I am directly beneath him. At 00:48, right after that course correction, like a ballistic warhead, he goes into as steep a dive as possible, towards what? Do I have a big glaring strobe on my hood? Apparently, as we'll see. At 00:54, right at the edge of his gunsight, my tank appears, watch the video, it is unmistakable. The ONLY way he could have known to dive from that altitude exactly there was the indicator. What is interesting is that you would take it upon yourself to assign motive to someone else's actions. Project much? You are mistaken in my case, I will let HiTech speak for himself. If I'd intended to avoid detection, I would play Minecraft, next?
I have 11 sorties in attack mode this month, 5 vehicle kills (one of which was you). ALL of these sorties were BEFORE the "quadrant" update. What is shown in the videos is what I have done all this time WITHOUT the quadrant add-on. I think your blaming too much on this change.
I still havn't seen the the update in action but hope to get online today. Maybe some guys have begun to use it more as a target finder, but Im thinking that is what it's purpose is. Learning how to defeat this purpose is now in the hands of the GVers. Im thinking there will be a lot more hide and move type drives now, maybe more teamwork with wirbs running with the heavies as cover. All to make more action/combat.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Lusche on November 18, 2017, 11:37:15 AM
You guys are fixated a lot of the aircraft vs Gv aspect. Now that the quadrant has been reduced to 200yards, it's much less of an issue.
What remains is the impact on pure GV combat. And I'm still very pessimistic in it's impact in terms of 'quality' (yes, a very ambiguous term). Even when on the move, you can detect and easily pinpoint an enemy tank totally out of sight up to 6k away. And that's not only those "hiders" you all seem to be fixated upon. Let's give an example: A few weeks ago I was fighting in my M18. Was two of us defending a town vs a sustained, Gv only attack of 4-5 enemies. One of us stayed back at the town. Considering their numerical superiority, I decided to venture out in a M18. Highly mobile but extremely fragile. The only way to employ this vehicle is shoot& scoot. And so I did, putting up ambush after ambush, quickly relocating and greatly changing my lines of approach, sometimes hitting them from the left, then from the right again. With the GV quadrant, that would hardly have been possible. They could have easily seen me flanking, no matter how far out of sight I'd been driving. They could have determined my direction down to a few degrees, thanks to the sharp boundary between the quadrants. They would have easily noted how I switched from their right to their left side. Yes, I could adapt to that - by not choosing a M18 anymore, but a much better armored vehicle and sit back at the town to slug it out again. Or even better get back to planes to simply bomb them.
You don't have to think much anymore, you don't have to 'look' for the enemy that much anymore, and combat tactics based on outwitting and maneuvering are much less feasible. The new terrains introduced quite a problem in vehicles finding each other for combat and have caused a massive reduction in vehicle diversity. The quadrant, implemented as is, would be a bad way to fix that problem (if this was the intention at all).
And I'm not even talking about the 'gamey' aspect on looking your map for a 'radar' picture in a WW2 tank instead of looking out of your hatch... ;)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 18, 2017, 12:44:39 PM
Why do GV operators want to compete independently against aircraft? Has anyone ever read a history book?
Before the GV community attacks me about the new quadrant, armor would frequently use roads and only use overland movement for attack or hiding. In AH, GVs can go full speed over any terrain and this gives them an unfair advantage.
There are several other similar posts I could have quoted, but I had to pick one, so I picked yours ...
Historical GV combat (or for that matter air combat) wouldn't be fun to play within the time constraints available in an MMO. We don't have historical units, command structure, time progression, etc. etc. We are playing in a sandbox with our planes and tanks, and that's OK.
Now keeping in mind that we are playing in a sandbox, WRT to "combat" between AC and GVs, except possibly for AA vehicles, there is no "combat" involved. As I stated in another post, AC versus GV (except for Wirbles) is more like deer hunters versus deer. Fun for the hunters, but not for the deer. When you guys comment as if you don't understand this, it's kind of hard to take you seriously.
MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Delirium on November 18, 2017, 12:56:13 PM
As I stated in another post, AC versus GV (except for Wirbles) is more like deer hunters versus deer. Fun for the hunters, but not for the deer. When you guys comment as if you don't understand this, it's kind of hard to take you seriously.
Ok, we agree on this. Historically (and today), armor that is seen from the air is generally not long for this world.
That said, why do you want GVs to be able to operate with full autonomy in an environment that is dominated by aircraft?
edit: Personally, I don't like the vehicle quadrant feature. I would rather have aircraft spotting tell tale signs of armor moving among tree lines (such as deep tracks and cleared trees and brush). Without that feature available on a static terrain, I don't see what alternative Hitech had.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: The Fugitive on November 18, 2017, 12:56:40 PM
I wonder if this addition was spurred on by exit polls of new players? Maybe one of the answers given most often was "When in a GV I get killed before I know anyone is around"
From a guy that doesnt GV often I can tell you it is very frustrating to be hammered time after time without ever seeing the enemy. Sound doesn't seem to give out positional info like it use to, trees are so abundant that you need a chainsaw to get around, tracers are wonky, planes flying over head drown out all sounds other than the planes, and so on.
I would think GVing would be the action most new players are going to stick with at first. Air to air has a steep learning curve, and bombing is a bit boring. Gvs on the other hand is only a few keys to drive and shoot and can most easily be done with a mouse as your controller. But if your getting blown away time after time with out knowing how and so cant correct it why would you stay?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: redcatcherb412 on November 18, 2017, 01:06:08 PM
And I'm not even talking about the 'gamey' aspect on looking your map for a 'radar' picture in a WW2 tank instead of looking out of your hatch... ;)
But the jeep mounted ground radar arrays would be impressive . :aok
I found I do attack bases less, especially GV bases. When a storch ups and marks you within 10 seconds with no hunting around, just flies straight to you for an acft to bomb or marked for a tank. It's not worth the drive. I ended up just taking the ditch or capture instead of playing the bobbing apple in the barrel target time after time. At least the GV to GV isn't as gamey as the hunter has to keep running around and give away his position. Easy to track by sound and you have a 50/50 chance to nail him first. It seems the plan was to reduce ground attacks and that may have worked.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Becinhu on November 18, 2017, 01:17:18 PM
I haven’t even used the quadrant feature. In order to use it you must fly with your clipboard up. I dont want to cut my fov in half to use it. My only issue with gvs is that they can sit out in the open and they are virtually invisible until you can icon them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 18, 2017, 01:33:59 PM
Now keeping in mind that we are playing in a sandbox, WRT to "combat" between AC and GVs, except possibly for AA vehicles, there is no "combat" involved. As I stated in another post, AC versus GV (except for Wirbles) is more like deer hunters versus deer. Fun for the hunters, but not for the deer. When you guys comment as if you don't understand this, it's kind of hard to take you seriously.
MH
Except it is not that easy for planes to kill GV's in this game. It is very difficult to fly a search pattern, spot a GV and attack without losing your target while turning into your attack run. The icon ranges are too short to consistently attack GV's successfully from the air.
Furthermore, the in terms of the total MA dynamic, and to use your hunter/deer analogy - GV's are not even the deer. They are the shrubs the deer need to feed on so the hunters have enough deer to hunt.
So, if anything, GV's are still not easy enough to kill to have a healthy MA.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 1stpar3 on November 18, 2017, 03:23:24 PM
It DOES take some practice! Like anything else though, once you get it down..it IS fairly easy to attack GVs from Planes. I practice every day. Its what I really like to do, and not with 1000 pound bombs. :x 250 is more than enough to kill just about any GV in the game....if you put it on them. I do it every day :aok
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 18, 2017, 03:41:21 PM
Ok, we agree on this. Historically (and today), armor that is seen from the air is generally not long for this world.
That said, why do you want GVs to be able to operate with full autonomy in an environment that is dominated by aircraft?
edit: Personally, I don't like the vehicle quadrant feature. I would rather have aircraft spotting tell tale signs of armor moving among tree lines (such as deep tracks and cleared trees and brush). Without that feature available on a static terrain, I don't see what alternative Hitech had.
Given we play in a sandbox, IMHO it is good for AH to extend the proven gameplay opportunities we have always had for AC to GVs. Meaning that no matter what the roster mix at a given moment, and in most places on the map, it should be easy to up any platform (AC, GV, or whatever), quickly find combat, get kills, and land them (!!!). This should cater to a wider mix of game play preferences, and interest a greater range of paying subscribers. (As an example, the few people I know who might have subscribed, would most likely have GVed, had that portion of the game not been increasingly nerfed).
WRT what alternative Hitech had, I think he should have left the hard-to-find-GV aspect alone. When AC are around, individual GVs are highly unlikely to survive obtain / land kills (see above), unless they have the ability to (at the cost of temporarily abandoning their mission) hide from AC. There is a partial exception to the previous statement, which is when the GV is part of a horde or mini-horde, and hence has numbers and air cover on its side. Limiting gameplay to the horde-member scenario is undesirable, however.
Going further, I would like to see Hitech re-introduce terrain with micro-hills and mini-hills, encouraging a maneuvering style of GV play with opportunities for long-range shooting from an elevation, as well as short-range on the flat. Remove the boulder-strewn slopes introduced in AH3, which slow movement on slopes to sometimes 1mph. Shooting from a higher elevation isn't bad; remember that line-of-sight works both ways. This style of terrain, which we used to have, also encourages maneuvering to achieve fighting positions which allow solid terrain objects such as berms and crests to be used to protect the shooting GV from directions other than that which it plans to shoot along (one of many important potential force multipliers which a single GV can use).
Instead, we currently have a GV environment where the main opportunity for kills is lying in wait and various types of positional camping, and the chances for survival to land kills again decreasing, as we get more game mechanisms facilitating locating GVs.
MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 18, 2017, 05:32:14 PM
Pre quadrant you have actually yakked on 200 about telling Waystin2 that I am not moving until he leaves or some sort of drivel. Hiding... Next?
I never tune 200. You are disseminating fake news about...drivel. Hiding is bad why? The fact that it keeps you searching and not attacking is reason enough to go to a field and hide. Curiously, when it is revealed Kilroy is there, the number of searchers increases by an order of magnitude. Now we have one Bishop holding down 3 or more opponents and allowing other Bishops to attack against weaker forces. That narrative ALONE, is enough to justify and promote the practice of "hiding" and it does not even cover all the offensive reasons, not to mention defensive reasons, one would deploy it. Understandably as an opponent you may harbor negative bias against such tactics, however you've shown no tactical, nor moral reason why this practice might be "bad." Perhaps you need to express yourself with feelings. Please try to contribute to the thread in a substantive manner, thanks.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: redcatcherb412 on November 18, 2017, 06:47:20 PM
It DOES take some practice! Like anything else though, once you get it down..it IS fairly easy to attack GVs from Planes. I practice every day. Its what I really like to do, and not with 1000 pound bombs. :x 250 is more than enough to kill just about any GV in the game....if you put it on them. I do it every day :aok
Which is worse in a GV, a Lanc-stuka formation with salvo 10 or the lone 1stpar spit circling above you can't hear or see dropping a 250 on your tank ?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 18, 2017, 06:55:17 PM
I never tune 200. You are disseminating fake news about...drivel. Hiding is bad why? The fact that it keeps you searching and not attacking is reason enough to go to a field and hide. Curiously, when it is revealed Kilroy is there, the number of searchers increases by an order of magnitude. Now we have one Bishop holding down 3 or more opponents and allowing other Bishops to attack against weaker forces. That narrative ALONE, is enough to justify and promote the practice of "hiding" and it does not even cover all the offensive reasons, not to mention defensive reasons, one would deploy it. Understandably as an opponent you may harbor negative bias against such tactics, however you've shown no tactical, nor moral reason why this practice might be "bad." Perhaps you need to express yourself with feelings. Please try to contribute to the thread in a substantive manner, thanks.
Lighten up Francis. No one is picking on you. You are a great GVer. I am not discussing good or bad. That is something you can work out with your shrink. The inability to find and destroy an enemy GV in a reasonable amount of time is exactly the reason why the quadrant was introduced. The hiding behavior that you say contributes to the offense (chuckle) as you say. Kudos to Hitech for the Quadrant implementation and I still say it needs to be lengthened to about 300 yards for planes, but not visible to other GVers.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Kingpin on November 18, 2017, 07:04:34 PM
Hiding is bad why? The fact that it keeps you searching and not attacking is reason enough to go to a field and hide.
As an opponent you may harbor negative bias against such tactics, however you've shown no tactical, nor moral reason why this practice might be "bad."
Kilroy,
I know those comments weren't directed at me, but I would like to address this issue. As someone who flies on all sides (rotating roughly every tour and sometimes switching for side balance), I have no bias for or against Bishops or any side. Just yesterday, you and I flew together (with some other Bish players) and I think you know I contribute to my current side's efforts with as much enthusiasm for that side as I do when on an opposing side. I hope you would agree that I have no bias toward you or the Bishop side in that regard. So, I ask you to take a step back from the issue for a second and think about what I am writing here for a moment, before dismissing my opinions as heavily "biased" and therefore "not contributing to the thread".
As an Aces High Trainer, I feel very strongly that a part of my (volunteer) "job" is help people enjoy the game more. This is especially true when it comes to retaining more new players, which is probably the biggest issue facing the game right now. In that regard, I do have very strong opinions as to what contributes positively to Aces High gameplay and what does not.
The Aces High Home Page and the Aces High Steam page say it is a game promoting "combat between other players". Players want to get into a vintage aircraft or vehicle, shoot at things and blow stuff up. If they get to do that, the game is more fun. If not, it is less fun. When I help/train other players, it is so they can more effectively blow up more stuff. The game is not called "Aces Hide and Seek". That type of gameplay may be fun for some people, because for them "not fighting is winning", but it is generally not good gameplay and certainly does not appeal to a mass audience.
That said, if you want to spend your Aces High hours hiding, that is your choice. You once told me you spent "8 hours sitting in one place just to flash a base". OK, YOU can do that if that is fun for YOU. But in the bigger picture, you yourself have described above how that affects the gameplay for others -- several people fly around, expecting something to shoot at, looking for something they can't find it (because of the no icon situation), so they land and leave. Hurray, you won. But some of those people will log off looking for something better to do. Some people who log off regularly for not finding action in the game won't return. And that is the biggest problem facing the game today -- player retention. And I am not blaming you for that, I am just saying action retains players, uneventful sessions of hide and seek does not.
So, Hitech is simply making changes to his game to promote more combat. That is a good thing for the game. Things that promote combat are mostly good for the game and things that restrict/avoid combat are mostly bad. (If you read my post in the Wishlist section, I do have opinions on other ways the "ground warning dar" could be implemented to be less " gamey", and I'd rather just see a small icon range change instead. I'd encourage your feedback there, in fact.)
You specifically asked for a "moral reason" why hiding under a tree, virtually invisible, for hours at a time is bad for the game. I hope you will at least consider this answer -- not in the sense that I am asking you to change how you play, but rather that you will accept the reason for the game-design changes.
<S> Kingpin
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: atlau on November 18, 2017, 09:16:15 PM
Kingpin very well said
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Spikes on November 18, 2017, 09:56:38 PM
The best way to promote combat would be to not make it more advantageous and efficient to run field supplies in an M3 to a town than to roll a plane or GV and defend said field.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 8thJinx on November 18, 2017, 11:05:59 PM
Can I get a list of "perceived" things the AH GV game has been saddled with that are supposed to be killing the GV game. I've heard the root cause for almost 15 years, "Hitech is personally doing this to screw GVs because he won't consult us before he screws us". Please just itemize the things so I can look at it from a terrain builder's perspective. I saw on Oceania at A61 an AH2 textbook GV spawn battle the other night that lasted for about 2 hours. So aside from programming things only Hitech can address, I've attempted to address up to now what the terrain editor allows.
I don't buy it for a minute that Hitech is willfully screwing the GV game. At least not from my recent experience in communicating with Hitech, Skuzzy, or Waffle. They seem heartily interested in enhancing gameplay, period.
However, from a terrain perspective, we have to agree that the real estate between the spawns and towns and bases has radically changed in AH3. R-A-D-I-C-A-L-L-Y. There can be no argument against this statement. The terrain features have changed. It's nobody's fault. Nobody is willfully doing it. Nobody is trying to screw another guy out of some fun. It's simply a learning curve thing, and the thing we need to learn is a better way of "painting" and "lumping" the terrain. To put it bluntly, the terrains from the edge of the base/town outward to the spawns right now are largely (not 100%, but largely) dead zones of activity. It's the thing you muscle your vehicle through to get to a town or base. That's not the way it used to be. Compello, Ozkansas, Ndisles, none of these maps had the degree of forestation and terrible sight lines as we're seeing now. Except Baltic, the AH3 version of that terrain is pretty good and actually is close to what the AH2 version offered.
Open valleys, clear lines of sight, unforrested lowlands, opportunities to fight for little hills or strong points, or for control of the real estate between spawns, small terrain features you can leapfrog to and from to get a better position, these things were like oxygen for GV gameplay. Again, it's no one's fault, this wasn't intentional, but maybe the broad strokes of converting an AH2 terrain into an AH3 terrain left them with heavily-treed forests and jungles, and little detail in the land itself. In my humble opinion, that stripped the GV game of oxygen. The most important thing is this: it's an easy fix. Every single GV'er should be confident that these things are fixable.
I would love to be allowed to massage Ndisles or Grinder or SMPizza or even SFMA or Montis. Not touch the location of a single spawn or base. Just work with the TE terrain brushes and elevation tools. I don't know if that's possible, but I wish it was so I could prove my point.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Oldman731 on November 19, 2017, 12:45:09 AM
Hiding is bad why? The fact that it keeps you searching and not attacking is reason enough to go to a field and hide. Curiously, when it is revealed Kilroy is there, the number of searchers increases by an order of magnitude. Now we have one Bishop holding down 3 or more opponents and allowing other Bishops to attack against weaker forces.
And yet another illustration of the difference between war-winners and furballers. But really, do you log onto a combat game to play hide-and-seek? Really?
- oldman
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bozon on November 19, 2017, 01:23:05 AM
It DOES take some practice! Like anything else though, once you get it down..it IS fairly easy to attack GVs from Planes. I practice every day. Its what I really like to do, and not with 1000 pound bombs. :x 250 is more than enough to kill just about any GV in the game....if you put it on them. I do it every day :aok
250 lbs? :huh I go straight to the 4000 lbs cookie, and lob it at the vehicle's general direction.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 19, 2017, 02:12:48 AM
I know those comments weren't directed at me, but I would like to address this issue. (yadda, yadda, yadda, etc. Content deleted so people wouldn't forget what we are talking about)
That is a really, really long passage about the merits of hiding. This thread is about quadrant radar and it's merits. As a representative if HTC, I would think you would want to stick to the rules.
The Aces High Home Page and the Aces High Steam page say it is a game promoting "combat between other players". Players want to get into a vintage aircraft or vehicle, shoot at things and blow stuff up. If they get to do that, the game is more fun. If not, it is less fun. When I help/train other players, it is so they can more effectively blow up more stuff. The game is not called "Aces Hide and Seek". That type of gameplay may be fun for some people, because for them "not fighting is winning", but it is generally not good gameplay and certainly does not appeal to a mass audience.
By this long worded paragraph, am I to assume that, by your interpretation, our gameplay must be always be oriented around "entertaining new players?" That puts kind of a Hunger Games twist to it, no? And, btw, who made you the authority on what appeals to a mass audience?
Some people who log off regularly for not finding action in the game won't return. And that is the biggest problem facing the game today -- player retention. And I am not blaming you for that, I am just saying action retains players, uneventful sessions of hide and seek does not.
This is a presumption on your part. People log off in frustration, usually for getting killed, without killing. We all know this, we all have experienced it, it is FACTUAL. Now you may have a "theory" about hiding tanks discouraging subscriptions, but you would have to substantiate it. The biggest problem facing the game today is not player retention, the biggest problem facing the game is remaining in existence. People picking their soapbox issue, like hiding tanks and then attempting to elevate that to "the biggest problem" does not help.
You once told me you spent "8 hours sitting in one place just to flash a base".
You don't post on forums much, do you. If you did, you would know intrinsically that unless you quote someone in the most flattering terms possible, that quote is only valid until they reply. Then it is a misquote and why did you bring it up in the first place? Possibly to support a biased point of view that wasn't even perceived until you started misquoting. With you country flipping all the time, why would I EVER want to tell you ANYTHING that did not ultimately contribute to Bishop winning maps. If you accepted some sort of disinformation as factual, it is not my fault.
So, I ask you to take a step back from the issue for a second and think about what I am writing here for a moment, before dismissing my opinions as heavily "biased" and therefore "not contributing to the thread".
No you opened this subject kitten. So I go to a field and it starts flashing, oh no! So a noob flyer gets in his nice Spit16 and goes to the flashing field, no cons, bummer! So he goes and bombs my field, undefended, how disappointing for him! Where is this hiding thing, which I may or may not do, where is it causing such loss of hope, joy and promise? How, by hiding, do I kill him and not give him a chance for revenge? How does it kill the game?
You know what I think kills the game? Egocentric kill counters that do not work for a common goal, that glitch around the game, jumping to the low eny countries and raking up kills in an attempt to fill the gaping hole in their ego where their self confidence is supposed to reside. Pretending to break from engagements in order to sneak back in and kill someone landing is not becoming, does not promote good sportsmanship and is 100% self serving. As a representative of HTC, I would think my first duty would be to remain absolutely silent, lest I offend or misrepresent my "employer." Lacking that, I would want everything I utter to be absolute gold flattery, so my masters would know I lackey well. If I were unable to accomplish that, I would know that I had become an Aces High trainer, simply for the privilege of calling myself that.
And yet another illustration of the difference between war-winners and furballers. But really, do you log onto a combat game to play hide-and-seek? Really?
My tank presides over more base takes than any other single individual vehicle in the game. No, M3's do no "preside." verb, be in the position of authority in a meeting or gathering.
Lighten up Francis. No one is picking on you. You are a great GVer. I am not discussing good or bad. That is something you can work out with your shrink. The inability to find and destroy an enemy GV in a reasonable amount of time is exactly the reason why the quadrant was introduced. The hiding behavior that you say contributes to the offense (chuckle) as you say. Kudos to Hitech for the Quadrant implementation and I still say it needs to be lengthened to about 300 yards for planes, but not visible to other GVers.
And you still don't say why your feelings are valid. This is why the quadrant was introduced:
BTW the range of the vehicle radar is adjustable for observer,vehicle,plane and flack independently.
Also the quadrant is my first attempt at displaying some type of info that vehicles are in the area. I've wanted to add some type of display since AH3 was released, the reason is because of the increased tree density making if difficult to even know if a vehicle is in the area.
I'm convinced that more info was needed simply showing that a vehicle is some where to be found to fight in visible range. So any suggestion how to display that a vehicle is in the area(3 - 5 mile radius), with out giving a precise location will be considered.
I wonder if this addition was spurred on by exit polls of new players? Maybe one of the answers given most often was "When in a GV I get killed before I know anyone is around"
From a guy that doesnt GV often I can tell you it is very frustrating to be hammered time after time without ever seeing the enemy. Sound doesn't seem to give out positional info like it use to, trees are so abundant that you need a chainsaw to get around, tracers are wonky, planes flying over head drown out all sounds other than the planes, and so on.
I would think GVing would be the action most new players are going to stick with at first. Air to air has a steep learning curve, and bombing is a bit boring. Gvs on the other hand is only a few keys to drive and shoot and can most easily be done with a mouse as your controller. But if your getting blown away time after time with out knowing how and so cant correct it why would you stay?
"Maybe" is a big word, I think you are totally mistaken. This game is called "Aces High," not "Roadrage," or something. I flew a different sim on a different platform. I competed on a ladder and was at the top, briefly. Of Mac geeks who flew F-18's in a small little ladder, I was #1 in the world. Big whoop, I am sure we all have similar stories. It got old, I looked around, found AH, been here since, still haven't made #1 - in flying at least. EVERYONE who comes here is an ace waiting to be discovered. Those who get tired of waiting, or check this out - elevate their gameplay out of the fist fight dueling arena of kill counting dogfights - turn to GVing. Aside from the occasional M3 supply, I flew exclusively for, well, about 10 years. Fell on a time of bad luck and a winter without work ,or joystick and by March I am #1 in GV's, go figure. Before that, it never even occurred to me to gv, it could happen to anyone. So I discount your theory of noobs leaving because of gv complexities. Maybe some do.
I also discount your theory about getting blown away, but granted, I have different experiences. See, if some dweeb kills me I think, "but that guy is a dweeb, there must be some trick" and then I figure it out.
250 lbs? I go straight to the 4000 lbs cookie, and lob it at the vehicle's general direction.
Some people try to pretend that they are not simply counting kills and say they are working on style to be skillful. Which are you?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 19, 2017, 05:25:16 AM
I'll tell you what, here is my idea. HiTech introduced the indicator because he wanted to make the game funner. There is nothing wrong with that, it is a great goal. The problem is, I think, as often happens here, is that in doing so, he has, or at least feels like he has, opened some sort of chasm between highly opinionated and deeply opposing groups. I don't know, but if I had his job, I'd just slam the door on the lot of us and maybe, just maybe check back to see who's standing when the dust settles.
So, I'll accept my part and apologize for being divisive. I will try to be as neutral as possible, in the interests of working together. If we like this enhancement, we should say so and why and try to be constructive and if not, the same. I am not opposed to encouraging fighters to do other things besides dogfight, because if it easier and funner for my countrymen, they will bomb more tanks also. I still think the indicator should be non directional, a simple warning light and I have no real opinion about it's range. The reason I prefer a non directional indicator is that the quadrant icon moves away from the solid tradition of having a very realistic and carefully recreated WWII experience, in favor of something that is app-like.
Granted the chat bar is a necessary and unconventional inclusion; in this age of valuable subscriptions, I do not see quadrant dar as a make or break addition. To accomplish that would require fundamental changes that give new users fulfillment, which is a tough call in this age of shortened attention spans. So to me, it causes subtle changes in how the game flows and should therefore be considered appropriately.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Copprhed on November 19, 2017, 06:37:44 AM
You speak of "realism", yet you rely on UNREALISTIC characteristics of the GAME, i.e. flashing a base, to "play" the GAME.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Delirium on November 19, 2017, 07:56:07 AM
As a representative of HTC, I would think my first duty would be to remain absolutely silent, lest I offend or misrepresent my "employer." Lacking that, I would want everything I utter to be absolute gold flattery, so my masters would know I lackey well. If I were unable to accomplish that, I would know that I had become an Aces High trainer, simply for the privilege of calling myself that.
That was incredibly rude. You do realize that AH Trainer do not get paid, aside from a free account while working as a Trainer. If they spend the time recommended in the Training Arena, it amounts to less than 25 cents an hour. I guarantee that most exceed this time and attempt to inject more fun into the game itself.
I could go on about how you represent the negatives about this community. However, I know there are plenty of good people here that come out of the woodwork to help one another, and you should follow that example.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bozon on November 19, 2017, 10:24:28 AM
Some people try to pretend that they are not simply counting kills and say they are working on style to be skillful. Which are you?
I gave up on being skillful. I have no skill, so I just fly with the hord, pick, and HO - these white-text messages from enemy players that I keep getting seem to confirm that, word for word.
And come on, there is no kill better than an over-kill. :banana:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 19, 2017, 01:19:10 PM
I know those comments weren't directed at me, but I would like to address this issue. As someone who flies on all sides (rotating roughly every tour and sometimes switching for side balance), I have no bias for or against Bishops or any side. Just yesterday, you and I flew together (with some other Bish players) and I think you know I contribute to my current side's efforts with as much enthusiasm for that side as I do when on an opposing side. I hope you would agree that I have no bias toward you or the Bishop side in that regard. So, I ask you to take a step back from the issue for a second and think about what I am writing here for a moment, before dismissing my opinions as heavily "biased" and therefore "not contributing to the thread".
As an Aces High Trainer, I feel very strongly that a part of my (volunteer) "job" is help people enjoy the game more. This is especially true when it comes to retaining more new players, which is probably the biggest issue facing the game right now. In that regard, I do have very strong opinions as to what contributes positively to Aces High gameplay and what does not.
The Aces High Home Page and the Aces High Steam page say it is a game promoting "combat between other players". Players want to get into a vintage aircraft or vehicle, shoot at things and blow stuff up. If they get to do that, the game is more fun. If not, it is less fun. When I help/train other players, it is so they can more effectively blow up more stuff. The game is not called "Aces Hide and Seek". That type of gameplay may be fun for some people, because for them "not fighting is winning", but it is generally not good gameplay and certainly does not appeal to a mass audience.
That said, if you want to spend your Aces High hours hiding, that is your choice. You once told me you spent "8 hours sitting in one place just to flash a base". OK, YOU can do that if that is fun for YOU. But in the bigger picture, you yourself have described above how that affects the gameplay for others -- several people fly around, expecting something to shoot at, looking for something they can't find it (because of the no icon situation), so they land and leave. Hurray, you won. But some of those people will log off looking for something better to do. Some people who log off regularly for not finding action in the game won't return. And that is the biggest problem facing the game today -- player retention. And I am not blaming you for that, I am just saying action retains players, uneventful sessions of hide and seek does not.
So, Hitech is simply making changes to his game to promote more combat. That is a good thing for the game. Things that promote combat are mostly good for the game and things that restrict/avoid combat are mostly bad. (If you read my post in the Wishlist section, I do have opinions on other ways the "ground warning dar" could be implemented to be less " gamey", and I'd rather just see a small icon range change instead. I'd encourage your feedback there, in fact.)
You specifically asked for a "moral reason" why hiding under a tree, virtually invisible, for hours at a time is bad for the game. I hope you will at least consider this answer -- not in the sense that I am asking you to change how you play, but rather that you will accept the reason for the game-design changes.
<S> Kingpin
The major flaw in your perspective is your assumption that the only possible "game" is flying planes. From that it follows that limiting plane options by allowing GV hiding reduces fun, etc. So far so good.
But what about people who want to "game" using GVs? Is it "fun" for them to realize that most times their GV tactical game is short circuited every time a plane joins the fight? Of course not. (Remember my deer hunter versus deer analogy; the best defense for the deer is to avoid the deer hunter until he loses interest and leaves the deer to its previous activities). Such a person could just as easily "land and leave", and I know of at least one who has. Further quoting you above, "Hurray; you won". Now the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it. Think about it.
What some of us are hoping for is movement by Hitech extending the scope of game play for BOTH AC and GVs, so a player can, again, up a platform, find a fight, get kills and land them, with a roughly equivalent chance of success using ANY platform. If implemented correctly (big qualifier here), this should theoretically attract and keep more players (both in AC and GVs), and generate more income, to the benefit of us all.
MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: The Fugitive on November 19, 2017, 01:49:27 PM
Your deer analogy doesnt work here tho. In the case of the deer and the hunter the deer is hiding to SAVE ITS LIFE!. We on the other hand are playing a game which by the way DEPENDS on players interacting WITH EACH OTHER.
Your game in a GV is to get to where your going and kill buildings or other players. My game, being an opponent is to find you and stop you from doing that. By sitting under a tree for hours and AVOIDING all interaction I believe your going against the principles of the game.
After all if that is your game, save your self some money and play off line. Nobody will ever kill you and you can roll base after base all by yourself.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Kingpin on November 19, 2017, 05:29:39 PM
The major flaw in your perspective is your assumption that the only possible "game" is flying planes.
Where exactly do I say that the "only possible game is flying planes"? Hint: I didn't say any such thing.
The major flaw in your perspective is that you assume this is about promoting aircraft over vehicles. It isn't. It is about gameplay.
To give you a correct insight into my point of view, read these two posts. The first is where I made the Wishlist post suggesting dynamic GV icons back in 2011 so that GVs weren't so easily spotted and targeted at long range from the air. (This greatly limited the effectiveness of the Lanc-stuka which all but disappeared as viable gameplay. You're welcome! It also required more skill in locating and divebombing GVs because you didn't have GV icon standing out at 10,000 feet. Again, you're welcome!) http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,324051.msg4233738.html#msg4233738
Unfortunately, that system worked well in AHII but is flawed in AHIII due to all the trees, which now make GVs practically invisible to aircraft at the touch of a button. The densely wooded terrain has also turned GV gameplay from what used to be large GV battles over wide swaths of terrain into individual games of hide and seek in the trees. These are gameplay issues that evolve over time, not some conspiracy against GVers.
With regard to airborne quadrant dar, you should also read my Wishlist post on the subject before you assume what I am thinking. You will again see my intent is balanced gameplay, not in favor of aircraft or GVs. In fact, my opinion is that quadrant dar should not be available in flight. I believe it should be possible to spot GVs based on short icon ranges, which would still require lower alt searching without having an airborne radar system guiding you there. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,390398.0.html
Perhaps now you might re-read my post in this thread without so many assumptions about my perspective.
<S>
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 19, 2017, 05:40:01 PM
Your deer analogy doesnt work here tho. In the case of the deer and the hunter the deer is hiding to SAVE ITS LIFE!. We on the other hand are playing a game which by the way DEPENDS on players interacting WITH EACH OTHER.
When a plane is overhead, I hide to save my in-game life, so the analogy is good. WRT interacting with each other, AC-GV interaction was already adequate before the introduction of GV radar, given competent play style (...). I certainly had no problem in finding enemy GVs in typical tactical situations, with the single exception of the nuisance GV positioned with the sole purpose of making a base blink for hours. In that latter case, I just let it blink; not the end of the world.
Your game in a GV is to get to where your going and kill buildings or other players. My game, being an opponent is to find you and stop you from doing that. By sitting under a tree for hours and AVOIDING all interaction I believe your going against the principles of the game.
Your comment implies ignorance of the full range of GV game play possibilities. My main hope (and in the old days I could do this) was to take out my GV and fight other GVs, using my skill to achieve advantage, leading in turn to multiple kills, which I often could land. Avoidance of AC was of course a prerequisite for this. Killing buildings was mostly a way to generate opposing GVs. Hiding "under a tree for hours" sounds boring; do you do that?
After all if that is your game, save your self some money and play off line. Nobody will ever kill you and you can roll base after base all by yourself.
I always play alone, am not part of a squad, and could care less about the "war", let alone about rolling bases. Straw man arguments.
MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 8thJinx on November 19, 2017, 05:48:46 PM
Unfortunately, that system worked well in AHII but is flawed in AHIII due to all the trees, which now make GVs practically invisible to aircraft at the touch of a button. The densely wooded terrain has also turned GV gameplay from what used to be large GV battles over wide swaths of terrain into individual games of hide and seek in the trees. These are gameplay issues that evolve over time, not some conspiracy against GVers.
+ forty bazillion quadrillion mo'billion
However, it's not really anyone's fault. How we color and brush the terrain simply needs a small bit of tweaking to adapt to the available AH3 tree densities, which fortunately is very very easy to do inside of the terrain editor. This is a very easy problem to fix.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 19, 2017, 06:11:44 PM
Where exactly do I say that the "only possible game is flying planes"? Hint: I didn't say any such thing.
All I have to go on is your post, which implied this perspective. Perhaps you should have composed it more carefully? In particular you suggested that subscribers would leave if they couldn't more easily find and bomb GVs: "... several people fly around, expecting something to shoot at, looking for something they can't find it (because of the no icon situation), so they land and leave. Hurray, you won. But some of those people will log off looking for something better to do. Some people who log off regularly for not finding action in the game won't return." Nothing about the benefits that increased chances of survival against planes would yield in terms of subscribers. After looking at the posts you reference subsequently, I see you are at least attempting objectivity, even though I don’t think you fully realize the problems single (non-horde-with-air-cover) GVs faced in the latter days of AH2 and now again after the addition of GV radar. In particular that “that system” did not “work well in AHII”. The GV game was well on the way to dieing in the last days of AH2, and the new anti-elevation terrain changes in AH3 were just more nails in the coffin. The only good thing about AH3 GVing was the increased ability to hide in the trees, until AC went away and one could resume GVing. Even then, a competent searcher (like myself) had little problem with finding GVs, even prior to the recent addition of GV radar.
MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Kingpin on November 19, 2017, 06:59:07 PM
In particular you suggested that subscribers would leave if they couldn't more easily find and bomb GVs
Again, no. I never said any such thing. It is YOUR bias that is causing you to think this.
I said players who look for combat (ANY combat, air or ground: "something to shoot at") and can't find combat, in a game that advertises combat against other players, may be inclined to leave. My post was talking about good gameplay. You are trying to make it about "bombing GVs.". Try reading it again.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: The Fugitive on November 19, 2017, 07:36:13 PM
When a plane is overhead, I hide to save my in-game life, so the analogy is good. WRT interacting with each other, AC-GV interaction was already adequate before the introduction of GV radar, given competent play style (...). I certainly had no problem in finding enemy GVs in typical tactical situations, with the single exception of the nuisance GV positioned with the sole purpose of making a base blink for hours. In that latter case, I just let it blink; not the end of the world.
Your comment implies ignorance of the full range of GV game play possibilities. My main hope (and in the old days I could do this) was to take out my GV and fight other GVs, using my skill to achieve advantage, leading in turn to multiple kills, which I often could land. Avoidance of AC was of course a prerequisite for this. Killing buildings was mostly a way to generate opposing GVs. Hiding "under a tree for hours" sounds boring; do you do that?
I always play alone, am not part of a squad, and could care less about the "war", let alone about rolling bases. Straw man arguments.
MH
Im sorry if I over simplified the GV options in the game, but if you boil it down that is all it is. The same goes for flying fighters or bombers..... find target, hit target. Thats it. Your "picking" apart my explanation shows me your only looking to pick a fight, and not discuss what you and some believe is an issue.
Kingpins post are right on. "we" all should be working to making the game more fun for everyone. This is what will keep other/new players coming back until they are hooked and can never leave :devil
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 19, 2017, 08:44:24 PM
Again, no. I never said any such thing. It is YOUR bias that is causing you to think this.
I said players who look for combat (ANY combat, air or ground: "something to shoot at") and can't find combat, in a game that advertises combat against other players, may be inclined to leave. My post was talking about good gameplay. You are trying to make it about "bombing GVs.". Try reading it again.
You also said other things. I quoted one of them in my previous post; perhaps you missed that? If not GVs, what exactly did you intend to refer to by saying "looking for something they can't find it (because of the no icon situation), so they land and leave"? The "no icon situation" in the context of this thread sounds like GVs to me. Please don't gloss over this if you respond further.
Remember, when you write something, you are responsible for implications as well as direct statements.
MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 19, 2017, 08:52:29 PM
Im sorry if I over simplified the GV options in the game, but if you boil it down that is all it is. The same goes for flying fighters or bombers..... find target, hit target. Thats it. Your "picking" apart my explanation shows me your only looking to pick a fight, and not discuss what you and some believe is an issue.
Kingpins post are right on. "we" all should be working to making the game more fun for everyone. This is what will keep other/new players coming back until they are hooked and can never leave :devil
"find target, hit target" may well be what AH has become, I grant you. However, it doesn't have to be that way. Clearly stealth is a major factor, both in real-world military situations, and also in historical gaming. You have to admit that.
BTW, my taking your statement piece by piece, and responding to each, is an attempt at a rational response. A large block of text tends to be ignored.
Finally, I am very much interested in making the game more fun for everyone, and if you look at my recent posts in this thread and others, you have to admit that I have said this several times. The main issue between us seems to be that your AH gaming experiences and mine are divergent, probably because I have done a lot a GVing in the last 5 years. (My 15-year-old PC didn't allow much else).
MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Kingpin on November 19, 2017, 09:34:00 PM
my taking your statement piece by piece, and responding to each, is an attempt at a rational response.
But you haven't responded to each point. You've taken a single sentence out of context in order to paint my entire post with a single brush stroke. First, you tried to say that I was promoting air combat over GVing, when I did no such thing.
As I've said numerous times now, the crux of my point is that uneventful games of hide and seek are not good gameplay while player vs. player combat is good gameplay. Yes, stealth should be a PART of the experience, but it should not be the core gameplay.
The opposing argument to mine is that that hiding is good gameplay. If you feel that the game should be more about hiding than fighting, then please make that argument.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 19, 2017, 10:05:26 PM
"Find target, hit target" is at the core of all PVP combat games. Without "find target, hit target" there is no combat.
But you haven't responded to each point. You've taken a single sentence out of context in order to paint my entire post with a single brush stroke. First, you tried to say that I was promoting air combat over GVing, when I did no such thing.
As I've said numerous times now, the crux of my point is that uneventful games of hide and seek are not good gameplay while player vs. player combat is good gameplay. Yes, stealth should be a PART of the experience, but it should not be the core gameplay.
The opposing argument to mine is that that hiding is good gameplay. If you feel that the game should be more about hiding than fighting, then please make that argument.
You're wearing me out Kingpin; I'll respond tomorrow. FYI, the responses you are now criticizing were not made to you, but to Fugi. Please re-read the post they were in. Good night. MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 20, 2017, 12:15:55 AM
Way to bury our differences and find a solution. If you represent HTC, you probably need to listen more and opin less (Kingpin). You sir, should be the one screaming STOP ARGUING, not me. Why is it so dam important to be right?
Thanks to all this bickering, HiTech has gone and turned the thing off, except in gv's which he didn't really design it for and I for one would like to help him realize his goal when he created it. I don't want a directional indicator of my position, but something that increases interaction would be good.
I still think an omnidirectional indicator is best and I think the range should be very great, but not from airfield to spawn point, a flashing field already provides an intruder alert.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Kingpin on November 20, 2017, 01:44:43 AM
You sir, should be the one screaming STOP ARGUING, not me.
I wasn't arguing, as that is pointless. I expressed an opinion of what I think is good for gameplay and when he misquoted me as saying the game is only about aircraft combat, I correct that.
I don't want a directional indicator of my position, but something that increases interaction would be good.
Then we are in agreement on this. I'm glad.
p.s. I am just a volunteer trainer and player of the game. I formulate my opinions the same as anyone else and simply try to offer what I think are realistic solutions to gameplay issues that are best for everyone. I don't "represent HTC" in that sense and am not privy to their decision-making process, so I would not speculate as to why specific changes are made. One of the nice things about HTC is they take an active interest in the game and it continues to evolve. Given time, I'm sure a good system will shake out in a form that everyone can live with.
<S>
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 20, 2017, 06:28:46 AM
If I were representing someone, I would make dam sure my personal opinions were expressed completely separately from the reputation, experience and perspective of that someone's appointed trainer. Kind of like not kneeling during the National Anthem. It's a free country (here) and I hope you will do as you please. In your "post script," you might try to stay on topic. It is about quadrant radar and it's relative merits. If you have anything meaningful to contribute on that subject, particularly in relation to the current condition and recent developments, I and probably countless others would be eager to see it.
EDIT:
Please remove GV radar from GV's immediately. Allowing GV radar in GV's totally removes the fight/move/fight doctrine of lighter, smaller tanks. All someone has to do it up the biggest, heaviest perk tank and keep the front end pointed toward the opponent. I just watched a Jagdpanzer follow the quadrant axis lines and turn 90 degrees as his path crossed my lateral position, this destroys the hunting aspect of game. Example: I am attacking an airfield providing offensive support to vehicles reducing the town. I have taken up a position at the edge of the airfield, between town and VH and I am targeting tanks as they head to town. I am alerted to the presence of a Panzer and notice that it is a Jag, from that distance he starts ranging me, from which I have no defense in my T-34. So I start up and retreat to the tree line and take up a position to intercept him as he approaches town. Of course he turns directly toward my well concealed position and my shot into his lower skirt, the most vulnerable shot I had, did nothing. A Jagdpanzer is a ranging tank, never intended for close in work or hunting, but it is certainly cheaper than a Tiger II when quadrant radar makes up the the Jag's deficiencies. I would also have had the kill shot on a T2 as it went by. With this thing, why bother having trees at all except to slow us down. Something candy for the pilots to see.
Now you have taken a situation where high ENY forces asymmetric game play and you have exaggerated this imbalance by augmenting the perk tanks. I am never in favor of augmenting perk tanks because I never use them myself. I am already good enough and so are they.
EDITED AGAIN...
Ok, how about disabling it within 1000'? If currently the range is 6k and it goes off at 1k, that should bring plenty of targets my way...
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Copprhed on November 20, 2017, 07:29:43 AM
Yet you think it is appropriate "gameplay" to sit for hours making an artificial alert, that wouldn't have existed in RL, flash a base while complaining about someone being able to find and KILL you. Sir, this is the absolute definition of hypocrisy.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: hitech on November 20, 2017, 09:04:16 AM
Thanks to all this bickering, HiTech has gone and turned the thing off, except in gv's which he didn't really design it for and I for one would like to help him realize his goal when he created it. I don't want a directional indicator of my position, but something that increases interaction would be good.
The change was designed PRIMARILY for gv v gv play. But it will change to a sector ( size of sector to be determined) based system in the next attempt.
HiTech
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Vinkman on November 20, 2017, 09:23:38 AM
So far I'm with Lusche on this one. A few thoughts...
We talk about "engaging in combat", but then reject hunting of a stealthy Gv as "combat". Be careful not define combat as "firing my weapon at something". To Lusche's point there has to be a balance between a fire-fight and strategy. Things that speed up the frequency of fire-fights, do so at the expense of strategy. Over do it and you end up with button smashing game of who has the quickest reflexes.
I think Kilroy and Lusche are making the point that the first attempt did too much to speed up fire-fights. It sounds like HiTech agreed and is working on a better solution.
"When am I going to learn how to fight?" - Daniel "First...Must learn Balance, Daniel-san" - Mr. Miyagi
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Krusty on November 20, 2017, 09:24:28 AM
Hitech, I think that making it find those people that are borderline griefers is exactly what we need. They kill action and momentum more than most other things in the game. I would say having a way to locate them is not only practical but promotes actual movement, action, and reflects historical realities of WW2. You shouldn't be able to disrupt and grief an entire sector's population of map with little or no effort or risk.
The vocal whiner minority shouldn't be coddled that much. There needs to be balance.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 20, 2017, 10:36:27 AM
Yet you think it is appropriate "gameplay" to sit for hours making an artificial alert, that wouldn't have existed in RL, flash a base while complaining about someone being able to find and KILL you. Sir, this is the absolute definition of hypocrisy.
This is not on topic, it is a personal attack. I go to fields to attack. If there is an alert and you search me, I will most definitely hide. At that point, it is your determination whether to stall your game, whether to call the alert artificial, because enemy units did most definitely populate areas where allies did not want them. At times they were tolerated and others they were rooted out. Blaming me for your uncertainty, leads me to believe you should not call me "sir" unless you are sincere.
They kill action and momentum more than most other things in the game.
This sounds like a feeling. How does Cybro, for example, kill action and momentum? He makes a regular practice of populating enemy dar rings specifically to give the impression of an attack. The "whiner minority" already got his barns removed and I see no reason to restrict his poor demented gameplay any further. He certainly doesn't distract me and I can say this from the perspective of an affected enemy. You would want to express your position from an awareness of these factors.
I would say having a way to locate them is not only practical but promotes actual movement, action, and reflects historical realities of WW2. You shouldn't be able to disrupt and grief an entire sector's population of map with little or no effort or risk.
Historical realities like; camouflage netting, disguised production facilities, false markings, etc. Here's some historical action:
The change was designed PRIMARILY for gv v gv play. But it will change to a sector ( size of sector to be determined) based system in the next attempt.
HiTech
I can offer that I really like being able to check from the tower for gv presence. I think that is good and promotes what you intend. I also like the idea of some form of directionality to it, just not a telltale that supplants leaned skills already available. The guy in the Jag may be a quick learner, but he had no business out there with that rig, in terms of historical realities.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 20, 2017, 11:21:19 AM
This sounds like a feeling. How does Cybro, for example, kill action and momentum? He makes a regular practice of populating enemy dar rings specifically to give the impression of an attack. The "whiner minority" already got his barns removed and I see no reason to restrict his poor demented gameplay any further. He certainly doesn't distract me and I can say this from the perspective of an affected enemy. You would want to express your position from an awareness of these factors.
I have the impression that Cybro populates friendly dar rings by sitting on ground in a fighter. Previously he was in hangars a lot, often with a running engine so you could not hear enemy GVs coming. Now I have seen him sitting in forest away from bases. He populates enemy dar ring because bases are captured IMHO.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: EagleDNY on November 20, 2017, 11:59:23 AM
I still think base and town flashing was plenty of indication that a GV was around - it was quite simple to just up a Storch and find him, and then point him out to your GV or bombing buddies that were hunting for him. If anything, I think the vehicle quadrant makes the spotting cooperation worthless. The only problem I have with bushes and leaves is that they prevent large caliber tank shells from actually hitting the target. Hide there all you want, but when somebody sees your outline through an orange bush and lobs an 88 your way, it shouldn't be stopped by the indestructable bush.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Devil 505 on November 20, 2017, 12:21:20 PM
Hitech, I think that making it find those people that are borderline griefers is exactly what we need. They kill action and momentum more than most other things in the game. I would say having a way to locate them is not only practical but promotes actual movement, action, and reflects historical realities of WW2. You shouldn't be able to disrupt and grief an entire sector's population of map with little or no effort or risk.
The vocal whiner minority shouldn't be coddled that much. There needs to be balance.
Truth.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: nrshida on November 20, 2017, 12:25:51 PM
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 20, 2017, 12:43:36 PM
The change was designed PRIMARILY for gv v gv play. But it will change to a sector ( size of sector to be determined) based system in the next attempt.
HiTech
HiTech:
WRT GV-versus-GV, couldn't you obtain a similar result by moving moving away from flat terrains? The ability to go for altitude in order to see over intervening terrain, combined with the existing sound detection mechanisms, used to work quite well for me back in the days of AH2.
This is more difficult now (even on non-flat terrains), partly because the AH3 terrains often have that rocky / cactus texture (?) which reduces speed by half (which I assume is intended to keep everyone on the flat), and partly because of the higher vegetation density blocking the view (except, perversely, on the slopes / hills themselves). Choosing an appropriate hill, and an appropriate position on the hill used to provide a lot of additional game play opportunities. For example, one's initial thought was to go to the highest point. It was then quickly discovered that LOS (line-of-sight) worked both ways, frequently resulting in death. The next level of tactical sophistication was to pick a point on the elevation where LOS exists only to the target (around the side of the top of the hill or in a saddle), etc. If the target was killed, one then had to maneuver futher to line up the next. Going for alt like this also frequently induced opposing GVs to pursue, resulting in further interesting maneuvering and combat on and around the hilly areas.
I always preferred that maneuvering style of GV play to spawn camping.
MH
EDIT: For the above concept to work, you need a reasonable number of "crests" on the terrain, where a small amount of forward-back movement allows full defilade to hull defilade to fully exposed. Some of the newer AH3 terrains have overly gradual transitions on the hills, to the exclusion of the above.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: JimmyD3 on November 20, 2017, 02:29:23 PM
IMHO ,the Red/Green "End Sortie" was the last great addition to the GV combat environment. As far as locating the enemy, sound is the best indicator, don't need the quadrant. Can't find my tank?? That is part of the Cat/Mouse game we all play, its no different than NOE raids on undefended bases. In WW2 missions had specific goals, some were merely taking photographs, some were Fighter sweeps, some were the capture of strategic targets, in all cases the goal was to avoid detection as long as possible, thus increasing the chance of success.
All this whining about not being able to "see" gv's in the trees, is just that, a whine. Many of you extol the virtue "In Real Life they....", well in real life gv's hid from ground attack aircraft as much as possible, aircraft had no "icon" to show them their location. While I don't know for sure ( Lusche probably has the data) I would suspect the number of GV's killed by aircraft and the number of aircraft killed by gv's, up to now, has not changed from AH2 to AH3.
I believe Kilroy has brought up some valid points, when it comes to gving, he certainly has the credentials. For me personally, when I can get a "Kilroy kill", its always a GREAT day. :devil
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 20, 2017, 09:08:03 PM
I have the impression that Cybro populates friendly dar rings by sitting on ground in a fighter. Previously he was in hangars a lot, often with a running engine so you could not hear enemy GVs coming. Now I have seen him sitting in forest away from bases. He populates enemy dar ring because bases are captured IMHO.
I still think base and town flashing was plenty of indication that a GV was around - it was quite simple to just up a Storch and find him, and then point him out to your GV or bombing buddies that were hunting for him. If anything, I think the vehicle quadrant makes the spotting cooperation worthless. The only problem I have with bushes and leaves is that they prevent large caliber tank shells from actually hitting the target. Hide there all you want, but when somebody sees your outline through an orange bush and lobs an 88 your way, it shouldn't be stopped by the indestructable bush.
WRT GV-versus-GV, couldn't you obtain a similar result by moving moving away from flat terrains? The ability to go for altitude in order to see over intervening terrain, combined with the existing sound detection mechanisms, used to work quite well for me back in the days of AH2.
This is more difficult now (even on non-flat terrains), partly because the AH3 terrains often have that rocky / cactus texture (?) which reduces speed by half (which I assume is intended to keep everyone on the flat), and partly because of the higher vegetation density blocking the view (except, perversely, on the slopes / hills themselves). Choosing an appropriate hill, and an appropriate position on the hill used to provide a lot of additional game play opportunities. For example, one's initial thought was to go to the highest point. It was then quickly discovered that LOS (line-of-sight) worked both ways, frequently resulting in death. The next level of tactical sophistication was to pick a point on the elevation where LOS exists only to the target (around the side of the top of the hill or in a saddle), etc. If the target was killed, one then had to maneuver futher to line up the next. Going for alt like this also frequently induced opposing GVs to pursue, resulting in further interesting maneuvering and combat on and around the hilly areas.
I always preferred that maneuvering style of GV play to spawn camping.
MH
EDIT: For the above concept to work, you need a reasonable number of "crests" on the terrain, where a small amount of forward-back movement allows full defilade to hull defilade to fully exposed. Some of the newer AH3 terrains have overly gradual transitions on the hills, to the exclusion of the above.
IMHO ,the Red/Green "End Sortie" was the last great addition to the GV combat environment. As far as locating the enemy, sound is the best indicator, don't need the quadrant. Can't find my tank?? That is part of the Cat/Mouse game we all play, its no different than NOE raids on undefended bases. In WW2 missions had specific goals, some were merely taking photographs, some were Fighter sweeps, some were the capture of strategic targets, in all cases the goal was to avoid detection as long as possible, thus increasing the chance of success.
All this whining about not being able to "see" gv's in the trees, is just that, a whine. Many of you extol the virtue "In Real Life they....", well in real life gv's hid from ground attack aircraft as much as possible, aircraft had no "icon" to show them their location. While I don't know for sure ( Lusche probably has the data) I would suspect the number of GV's killed by aircraft and the number of aircraft killed by gv's, up to now, has not changed from AH2 to AH3.
I believe Kilroy has brought up some valid points, when it comes to gving, he certainly has the credentials. For me personally, when I can get a "Kilroy kill", its always a GREAT day. :devil
Thoughtful analysis and reasoned statements.
Could this define some fundamental connection between depth of character and preferred play modes?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: horble on November 20, 2017, 10:37:46 PM
I wonder if that is because you type exactly like a pilot. Maybe if you didn't hang that big ugly IL2 in my pipper quite so often, you'd feel less vengeful.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TyFoo on November 21, 2017, 03:55:28 AM
Your deer analogy doesn't work here tho. In the case of the deer and the hunter the deer is hiding to SAVE ITS LIFE!. We on the other hand are playing a game which by the way DEPENDS on players interacting WITH EACH OTHER.
Your game in a GV is to get to where your going and kill buildings or other players. My game, being an opponent is to find you and stop you from doing that. By sitting under a tree for hours and AVOIDING all interaction I believe your going against the principles of the game.
After all if that is your game, save your self some money and play off line. Nobody will ever kill you and you can roll base after base all by yourself.
First somebody (Fugitive) points out Gving is entry level game play, only requiring knowledge of a few key strokes and the use of a mouse. Yet you get hammered time and time again? Then comes the argument that players get tired of being shot, and leave the game because of it . . blah blah blah. Now you say GV's don't really participate in the principles of the game? Which is it? As with ACM, there is an art and a significant learning curve to be an effective GV'er. Why call out the ground game only? If you don't like the fact that you cant bomb a GV at will - without putting forth some effort to find them, then your suggestion of finding something to do in the offline arena sounds like a plan.
Fly in a real airplane and try to find any vehicle sitting under a group of trees from a horizontal distance of 3-4 miles at an altitude of 5,000-10,000ft doing 230 kts. Possible? Maybe, but more likely not. IMHO the icon range is just about right. Those that know how to find GVs do, and those that don't know how should learn.
To all those GVs Sitting and Hiding. . . . Where can I find them? How many GVs are there? How many "hours" do they sit?. . . lol There are so many comments about GVs sitting for "hours". . . . lol This sounds like a lot of bloated jibber jabber - I would love to see the stats…….Cuz I do not see the same thing.
CYBRO is the only player I know that spends 43 hours a day sitting in a hangar or just off base, making it flash after it has been captured. And because he does this he is ignored by everybody. There is no harm, no foul, and I have never heard anybody quit the game because of it or him.
Kilroy sat for 8hrs? Kilroy is also one guy that will keep upping and attack again & again. There are days that you need to bring a strong constitution just to fend him off. On the flip side there is 715B, a player that strategically places himself in a position to thwart attacks. He is often well hidden, exercises the patience of a saint, and is very lethal. Fighting either player is extremely challenging combat yet they use different approaches, (and certainly not the same one all the time). Any tactic that makes you take action directly contributes to combat. On the ground (barring a camp) if you don't understand the difference of when to move, and when to wait, one will often find themselves on the wrong side of a tank shell.
Nobody can tell a flyer how high to fly, what direction to head, which base to bomb, what con to attack. The reality is they get to choose whether to participate its the individuals choice. It’s funny that so many feel the need to tell GVers how to play the ground game the way they think it should be played.
GV's sitting for hours & hours or are we waiting out a bombt**d? Expecting a GV to continue moving while a bombt**d is overhead is equivalent to me telling you to fly directly into the blazing gunfire of a HO, Whirble, or a tail gunner and expecting you not to take any defensive action. Logic, and common sense necessitates that I shut down and hide. If you choose to bomb GV's, then one shouldn't complain about how long it takes to find us. You are disrupting our base attack, not vice versa. I don't complain about your bomb attack, why should you complain about my defense?
Sitting while waiting for the bombt**d to go away doesn't promote combat?? Ok. . . . Then try not bombing GVs if the issue of promoting combat is so important. I like getting bombed about as much as you like getting camped, HOed, ganged, or 88ed. Its absurd to ask anybody to not act in a manner of self preservation when under attack. If you don't think so, start using the C47 in your next dogfight and let us know how it works out. Then maybe I'll consider keeping my tank moving when being targeted by your bombs.
W/ regards to GV radar. . . . Two issues I have experienced over the last few days with GV radar is; One it provides an unfair advantage to those already familiar with the ground game and helps those players to find and shoot others faster, exacerbating the "hammering and driving players away" argument. (And no I dont want to drive players away. . .)
Second I notice aircraft and GVs alike fly & move around me (I am speculating here) and act like they are paying more attention to the radar than looking outside. This isnt a very far fetched idea considering the argument of technology inside aircraft today and pilots disregarding the number rule of flying -Which is to Fly the airplane first! I have been observing both air & ground vehicles maneuvering as if they are trying to hone in on the enemy. The problem is they are watching the map and not the terrain. Boom.... ! Of course you could also chalk this one up to the learning curve.
The Green/ Red End Sortie light already provides the most pertinent information that a GV is in the area without pointing out its direction. Vehicle sound provides the rest of that information. The Green light tells me nobody is around and to move elsewhere for a battle. The Red light tells me there is a visitor and its time to sweep the welcome mat off.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Randy1 on November 21, 2017, 05:55:11 AM
So far a big -1.
HTC posted it is a work in progress so it is worth waiting to try the final version . . . . . if any.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 21, 2017, 07:11:28 AM
I have over 10,000 career kills in a Wirbelwind and several thousand kills in various tanks. Be careful making assumptions KillDoi. :aok
If we're going to qualify the merit of our two cents with numbers, then I have something to say, and it had better be taken to the bank.
My qualifying statement: I had 7,207 kills in just a single vehicle type in the 12-month calendar year leading up to AH3's debut. In the last 12 months, that same vehicle produced 3,219 kills, and I had similar GV sortie numbers.
My two cents: GV'ing is not entry level game play. That's just silly. Maybe folks don't appreciate it, but to say GV'ing is entry level is just facile.
With that said, the ground game changed enormously with the new tree densities and terrain features. Nobody's fault, no evil plans are afoot. But the answer to the GV game's woes lie squarely in that realm. Trees and terrain. We need to be patient. The terrain makers will adapt.
My thoughts on the quad dar: It seems most folks see a strange red pie shape on their clip board map. What I see is an honest effort to concentrate activity in the ground game.
Will the quad dar produce more fights? It's certainly easier to point your vehicle in the direction of red tanks. And it's way easier to find GVs around the towns. But will it re-create the ground game we once had?
My answer: Only the terrain makers can create the conditions for a great ground game. The quad dar definitely helps, but it's a stop gap. It's a crutch for something that's missing. The only thing that can bring life back to the GV game is attention to detail when making a terrain. And that is not rocket science.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 21, 2017, 09:59:27 AM
If we're going to qualify the merit of our two cents with numbers, then I have something to say, and it had better be taken to the bank.
My qualifying statement: I had 7,207 kills in just a single vehicle type in the 12-month calendar year leading up to AH3's debut. In the last 12 months, that same vehicle produced 3,219 kills, and I had similar GV sortie numbers.
My two cents: GV'ing is not entry level game play. That's just silly. Maybe folks don't appreciate it, but to say GV'ing is entry level is just facile.
With that said, the ground game changed enormously with the new tree densities and terrain features. Nobody's fault, no evil plans are afoot. But the answer to the GV game's woes lie squarely in that realm. Trees and terrain. We need to be patient. The terrain makers will adapt.
My thoughts on the quad dar: It seems most folks see a strange red pie shape on their clip board map. What I see is an honest effort to concentrate activity in the ground game.
Will the quad dar produce more fights? It's certainly easier to point your vehicle in the direction of red tanks. And it's way easier to find GVs around the towns. But will it re-create the ground game we once had?
My answer: Only the terrain makers can create the conditions for a great ground game. The quad dar definitely helps, but it's a stop gap. It's a crutch for something that's missing. The only thing that can bring life back to the GV game is attention to detail when making a terrain. And that is not rocket science.
Yo Jinx. Not qualifying with numbers, just clarifying Kildois incorrect statements when he thinks that all players commenting are strictly this type or that type. GV, Fighter, Bomber. Hell some of us are Hybrids. Anywho nothing bad mad respect for the map dudes it's a hard job and Grampa Bustr is a map hero to me!
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 21, 2017, 11:08:04 AM
GV'rs Posting Ignorantly I have over 10,000 career kills in a Wirbelwind and several thousand kills in various tanks. Be careful making assumptions KillDoi. :aok
And you, Gheaiestin, not sure who you are talking to and way to bring it down to kindergarten level, but let's see, when was the last time I saw YOU in a gv...oh ya, you remember don't you? No wonder you harbor such a grudge. Tried to gang up on me with some sort of disastrous M3 or jeep spotting scheme after I main gunned your silly little aeroplane. You demonstrated a real grasp of the finer tactics of gv flailing. I stand corrected. Now make meaningful posts as opposed to vitriolic ones and maybe we'll invite you to join the club.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 21, 2017, 11:38:01 AM
Pure gold, yet another well reasoned gver response. Where do we get this stuff? Can't be from sniffin tank shells, maybe from not swillin avgas. And you, Gheaiestin, not sure who you are talking to and way to bring it down to kindergarten level, but let's see, when was the last time I saw YOU in a gv...oh ya, you remember don't you? No wonder you harbor such a grudge. Tried to gang up on me with some sort of disastrous M3 or jeep spotting scheme after I main gunned your silly little aeroplane. You demonstrated a real grasp of the finer tactics of gv flailing. I stand corrected. Now make meaningful posts as opposed to vitriolic ones and maybe we'll invite you to join the club.
Harbor a grudge? No. Do I tolerate belligerent whiners? No. I knew the mouthy Kildoi that hides in bushes, spouts on 200, and PMs people would show up here eventually. I knew you were in there somewhere. Been trying to sound intelligent lately but I knew that played up veneer would wear off eventually. Jeep what? M3 what? Just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you. Better adjust that tin foil hat. :rolleyes: I don't need schemes to find you, that is why I am here discussing the potential changes to make it easier to find bush hiders. Hoping HTC adds some sort of Epilady product for the players like yourself that consider sitting in a bush for an hour to be stealth and skill. You make me laugh Kildoi. :rofl :aok
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: TDeacon on November 21, 2017, 02:03:09 PM
GV'rs Posting Ignorantly I have over 10,000 career kills in a Wirbelwind and several thousand kills in various tanks. Be careful making assumptions KillDoi. :aok
This is interesting, as it runs counter to the impression I obtained from your recent GV posts. Do you GV alone? If not, that may be where the disconnect comes from.
WRT my question, although I usually GV alone, I have occasionally spawned in the same area as a friendly horde, in cases where I thought I'd get decent game play out of it. The dynamics of GVing alone are significantly different that doing so with a horde, or shooting from the concrete on a base.
This is a serious question.
MH
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Mano on November 21, 2017, 05:05:36 PM
First somebody (Fugitive) points out Gving is entry level game play, only requiring knowledge of a few key strokes and the use of a mouse. Yet you get hammered time and time again? Then comes the argument that players get tired of being shot, and leave the game because of it . . blah blah blah. Now you say GV's don't really participate in the principles of the game? Which is it? As with ACM, there is an art and a significant learning curve to be an effective GV'er. Why call out the ground game only? If you don't like the fact that you cant bomb a GV at will - without putting forth some effort to find them, then your suggestion of finding something to do in the offline arena sounds like a plan.
Fly in a real airplane and try to find any vehicle sitting under a group of trees from a horizontal distance of 3-4 miles at an altitude of 5,000-10,000ft doing 230 kts. Possible? Maybe, but more likely not. IMHO the icon range is just about right. Those that know how to find GVs do, and those that don't know how should learn.
To all those GVs Sitting and Hiding. . . . Where can I find them? How many GVs are there? How many "hours" do they sit?. . . lol There are so many comments about GVs sitting for "hours". . . . lol This sounds like a lot of bloated jibber jabber - I would love to see the stats…….Cuz I do not see the same thing.
CYBRO is the only player I know that spends 43 hours a day sitting in a hangar or just off base, making it flash after it has been captured. And because he does this he is ignored by everybody. There is no harm, no foul, and I have never heard anybody quit the game because of it or him.
Kilroy sat for 8hrs? Kilroy is also one guy that will keep upping and attack again & again. There are days that you need to bring a strong constitution just to fend him off. On the flip side there is 715B, a player that strategically places himself in a position to thwart attacks. He is often well hidden, exercises the patience of a saint, and is very lethal. Fighting either player is extremely challenging combat yet they use different approaches, (and certainly not the same one all the time). Any tactic that makes you take action directly contributes to combat. On the ground (barring a camp) if you don't understand the difference of when to move, and when to wait, one will often find themselves on the wrong side of a tank shell.
Nobody can tell a flyer how high to fly, what direction to head, which base to bomb, what con to attack. The reality is they get to choose whether to participate its the individuals choice. It’s funny that so many feel the need to tell GVers how to play the ground game the way they think it should be played.
GV's sitting for hours & hours or are we waiting out a bombt**d? Expecting a GV to continue moving while a bombt**d is overhead is equivalent to me telling you to fly directly into the blazing gunfire of a HO, Whirble, or a tail gunner and expecting you not to take any defensive action. Logic, and common sense necessitates that I shut down and hide. If you choose to bomb GV's, then one shouldn't complain about how long it takes to find us. You are disrupting our base attack, not vice versa. I don't complain about your bomb attack, why should you complain about my defense?
Sitting while waiting for the bombt**d to go away doesn't promote combat?? Ok. . . . Then try not bombing GVs if the issue of promoting combat is so important. I like getting bombed about as much as you like getting camped, HOed, ganged, or 88ed. Its absurd to ask anybody to not act in a manner of self preservation when under attack. If you don't think so, start using the C47 in your next dogfight and let us know how it works out. Then maybe I'll consider keeping my tank moving when being targeted by your bombs.
W/ regards to GV radar. . . . Two issues I have experienced over the last few days with GV radar is; One it provides an unfair advantage to those already familiar with the ground game and helps those players to find and shoot others faster, exacerbating the "hammering and driving players away" argument. (And no I dont want to drive players away. . .)
Second I notice aircraft and GVs alike fly & move around me (I am speculating here) and act like they are paying more attention to the radar than looking outside. This isnt a very far fetched idea considering the argument of technology inside aircraft today and pilots disregarding the number rule of flying -Which is to Fly the airplane first! I have been observing both air & ground vehicles maneuvering as if they are trying to hone in on the enemy. The problem is they are watching the map and not the terrain. Boom.... ! Of course you could also chalk this one up to the learning curve.
The Green/ Red End Sortie light already provides the most pertinent information that a GV is in the area without pointing out its direction. Vehicle sound provides the rest of that information. The Green light tells me nobody is around and to move elsewhere for a battle. The Red light tells me there is a visitor and its time to sweep the welcome mat off.
As pointed out in this post, we have the Green or Red End Sortie to alert us if an enemy gv is present, a base flashing when relevant, F1 Storches, and Vehicle Sounds. We do not need the vehicle quadrants. The trees in AH3 provide cover for GV's that AH2 lacked. Camouflage was used in RL to hide GV's during battle and since the game does not have that modeled the vehicle quadrants takes away the benefit of the thick tree cover.
No more stealth for GV's period. Vehicle quadrants is a bad idea. My two cents.
:salute
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Kingpin on November 21, 2017, 07:12:14 PM
Camouflage was used in RL to hide GV's during battle and since the game does not have that modeled the vehicle quadrants takes away the benefit of the thick tree cover.
I keep seeing the camouflage argument coming up, but this is another case of selective realism.
GV's did not roll deep into forests to "hide during battle". They dispersed when NOT in battle to the edge of wood-lines, near their primary means of travel, usually open fields or roads. Or they set up ambushes there.
They did not roll deep into a wooded area and instantly become invisible. In Aces High III, we now have so many trees that GVs get an "instant camouflage" cloaking device button just by hitting the E key. There is no time factor involved to set up camo-netting, no time pack it up before moving and no penalty (reduction in speed or possible disabling tracks) for moving through terrain that would be impassible in real life. In AH there are no signs of recent tank movement, as there would be in real life. We don't have tank tracks on the terrain, knocked down foliage, exhaust or smoke from gunfire either, all of which make it much easier to spot ground vehicle positions from the air, in reality.
Before you ask for realism, be careful what you ask for or maybe GVing will get even harder.
Note in the first photo below how easy it is to spot where the tanks are and their lines of movement. In the second photo, note how easy it is to spot where tanks moved on the terrain long AFTER a battle (in this case the Battle of St. Lo, France).
Where do we get this stuff? Can't be from sniffin tank shells, maybe from not swillin avgas.
Bore evacuators. WW2 tanks didn't have 'em, AH tanks don't have 'em, and those fumes get you higher than rubber cement or Robitussin.
But seriously, I wish people would stop talking about RL tactics, especially WRT GVs. Aces High is not a combat simulator, it's a game based on a flight and GV simulator. There's a big difference. RL tanks didn't drive around alone stalking a single enemy tank with no other vehicles or infantry within 50 miles, nor did planes fly around their own airfield at 3,000 feet looking for a lone tank that was shelling the field. That's pure game. It's a fun game, but it bears almost no resemblance to actual WW2 armored warfare. RL also had no GV spawns. Tanks had to drive tens or even hundreds of miles to get to the battlefield and that's when they were most vulnerable to air attack. Our GVs just magically teleport onto the battlefield. I'm happier being able to teleport and not have to spend hours driving through empty terrain, but if you're going to bend that aspect of reality that much it's only reasonable to bend others as well to make up for it.
My $0.02 is that the new game has WAY too many trees and it's really hurting the GV game. I miss the old CraterMA spawn battle. Now on most maps you're lucky to find any open stretches with a 1k line of sight, and on most maps and near most bases you can easily drive from the spawn point to the town or field without leaving dense cover for more than a few seconds. The vehicle quadrant compensates for that a little. I'd rather have the old (lack of) trees and no vehicle quadrant, but if we're stuck with the ubiquitous jungle, I'd just as soon have the quadrant.
Also, it seems like the Storch was nerfed a lot at some point and I don't understand why. These days I can fly right past a tank at 1k and never see an icon if his engine is shut down. What's the point of having the Storch if it isn't any better than other planes for spotting GVs?
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: nrshida on November 22, 2017, 05:34:48 AM
(https://s19.postimg.org/4vmcd629v/KILROY.jpg)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: +Kilroy+ on November 22, 2017, 06:52:08 AM
Tanks had to drive tens or even hundreds of miles to get to the battlefield and that's when they were most vulnerable to air attack. Our GVs just magically teleport onto the battlefield.
Um wrong. Tanks had a very limited range, the max range for a T-34 was 250 miles or less. Couple that to maneuvers, marshalling and pursuit and a general had to be very careful where he dropped his tanks, usually by rail. Extended supply lines drained resources just defending flanks and in my opinion the spawns mimic that massing effect very well. A very well known style of warfare depends upon massing for a localized surprise attack, can you guess it's name?
Blitzkrieg (German, "lightning war") is a method of warfare whereby an attacking force, spearheaded by a dense concentration of armoured and motorised or mechanised infantry formations with close air support, breaks through the opponent's line of defence by short, fast, powerful attacks and then dislocates the defenders, using speed and surprise to encircle them.
Man that's very special, I see it's got the name of my avatar on it, sweet. It looks like you put a lot of time into it, really thought it out, I probably completed two sorties while you made that nice picture. Way to contribute to the forum, hats off sir.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Krusty on November 22, 2017, 08:25:26 AM
I would correct Kilroy... but.. I don't feed trolls. Seriously, this has to stop. Kilroy please. Speaking of "way to contribute to the forum?" You're hurting it. Big time.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: nrshida on November 23, 2017, 12:17:11 AM
Man that's very special, I see it's got the name of my avatar on it, sweet. It looks like you put a lot of time into it, really thought it out, I probably completed two sorties while you made that nice picture. Way to contribute to the forum, hats off sir.
Thank you. Yes it did take nearly half of my tea break to do it. But it was worth it bud. You're special, I can tell :)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: waystin2 on November 23, 2017, 09:18:58 AM
This is interesting, as it runs counter to the impression I obtained from your recent GV posts. Do you GV alone? If not, that may be where the disconnect comes from.
WRT my question, although I usually GV alone, I have occasionally spawned in the same area as a friendly horde, in cases where I thought I'd get decent game play out of it. The dynamics of GVing alone are significantly different that doing so with a horde, or shooting from the concrete on a base.
This is a serious question.
MH
I up GV's to defend fields primarily now. Sometimes this is with squaddies, but most times this is on my lonesome. I have little interest in spawn camp style shoot em ups. If there are already a bunch of tanks or Wirbels on the ground, then I do not bother upping. Who wants to be the 10th tank or Wirbel? The only thing that would ever keep me close to concrete is the need to watch a maproom. Otherwise I actively move towards enemy vehicles. I like to shoot, get a kill, reposition, constantly pressuring towards enemy spawn, our town, our field, or whatever needs to be reached. To me GV'ing is better if there is an objective being fought over and there is activity involved.
See you up there!
:salute
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: germ on November 23, 2017, 09:34:37 AM
I've wanted to add some type of display since AH3 was released, the reason is because of the increased tree density making if difficult to even know if a vehicle is in the area.
Since going VR I haven't really played a GV. I found the trees and the ability to hide made GV'ing more fun. It forced an actual challenge not only for the CAS, but the GV's trying to defend.
Personally, I believe this will just slowly erode the fun of GV'ing. Nobody wants to spend time inching towards a base, avoiding enemy detection only to be easily bomb****ed by this "radar" thingy. And here I thought the trees had IMPROVED GV fighting, now we're making it easier than it was in AH2?
I don't GV much anymore like I said, I'm loving the VR in flight, but this doesn't seem like something most hard core GV guys are going to appreciate much.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: germ on November 23, 2017, 09:41:56 AM
One last thought.. I was an actual "Tanker", a 19 Kilo, M1A1 armor crewman.
Tanks hide.. or go defilade. That's what they do. This defeats the purpose of armored warfare and the element of surprise and ambush.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: The Fugitive on November 23, 2017, 09:53:22 AM
After playing with this I dont think its that good an idea. From an attacking GVs point of view, its great! making it easier to spot and hunt down other GVs. From a defenders point of view it sucks! It is too easy to use to pin point a GV and take them out. I think something in the middle ground would be better.
Personally I'd like to see less trees, better line of site areas and such, but that is a major overhaul of the maps we have. New maps makers I hope look at this more.
I'd like to see more time spent on the GV sounds. With the sound system we have we should be able to have much better "placement"/"location" detection, as well as being able to ID a vehicle by sound.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 8thJinx on November 23, 2017, 10:01:05 AM
Yes, very easy to defend a town and hunt gv's attacking it. Add a friendly plane in the air, and the only way to take that town is to horde it.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 100Coogn on November 23, 2017, 10:04:31 AM
After playing with this I dont think its that good an idea. From an attacking GVs point of view, its great! making it easier to spot and hunt down other GVs. From a defenders point of view it sucks! It is too easy to use to pin point a GV and take them out. I think something in the middle ground would be better.
Personally I'd like to see less trees, better line of site areas and such, but that is a major overhaul of the maps we have. New maps makers I hope look at this more.
I'd like to see more time spent on the GV sounds. With the sound system we have we should be able to have much better "placement"/"location" detection, as well as being able to ID a vehicle by sound.
I agree with less trees and I don't even gv. There's too many trees as it is and that's part of what is killing a lot of peoples frame-rates. Notice when you turn ground detail level down how much more smoothly the game plays? At least for me it does.
Coogan
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: 8thJinx on November 23, 2017, 10:09:08 AM
Personally I'd like to see less trees, better line of site areas and such, but that is a major overhaul of the maps we have. New maps makers I hope look at this more.
I am definitely working on this with new maps. Not difficult to do, just need to pay attention to detail.
And it's not a big overhaul, either, to tweak an existing map. Rather straight forward. I emailed Skuzzy to see if I could tweak a dead copy of Ndilses and submit it for review. Haven't heard back yet.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: redcatcherb412 on November 23, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
It is too easy to use to pin point a GV and take them out. I think something in the middle ground would be better.
Personally I'd like to see less trees, better line of site areas and such, but that is a major overhaul of the maps we have. New maps makers I hope look at this more.
It seems like there's been some tweaking around the towns and bases. I see much larger treeless grassland for the last 500 yards or so on approach on the maps.
The GV dar seems to make it easier to bushwhack a GV at times. Find a defilade spot with good flanking protection and wait for the hunter. Works in open, trees or town. The hunter has to stay on the move looking often at the map dar with the hunted watching the dar and listening engine off knowing pretty close where his main gun needs to be aimed. Makes for a lot of slow attack with engine on/off and map watching. The old days of running flat out firing on the run blitzkrieg seem to be gone.
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: redcatcherb412 on November 23, 2017, 12:41:06 PM
One last thought.. I was an actual "Tanker", a 19 Kilo, M1A1 armor crewman.
Tanks hide.. or go defilade. That's what they do. This defeats the purpose of armored warfare and the element of surprise and ambush.
No, no, no. You are to sit in the open and await the bombs or tank shells from the treeline as numerous town killer M4's and M3's go streaming by you. It's only fair ya know. Ambush is a dirty word synonymous with vulching, camping or just not playing fair. :aok
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: Krusty on November 27, 2017, 12:13:30 PM
I'd just point out here that hiding in a hull-down position in an ambush spot looks so different from the ground as compared to FROM THE AIR that it's not even a valid comparison. How things look from the ground vs how they look from the air never match up. You can hid from air spotting or you can hide from ground spotting, but they are mutually exclusive.
Tanks were not invisible from the air, and should not be invisible in this game, nor should they be undetectable just to give an artificial leg-up to GV drivers who want to camp with impunity.
Get in, get the job done, and move on. This whole obsession with getting the camp going is bad for GV gameplay. Hell, I once got 23 kills on an enemy field -- no not shooting into the VH but nearby waiting for targets to come out -- and it did nothing. It was me being a jackarse and I can promise you I didn't do anything to help the team for it, didn't really have a sense of accomplishment other than "how long will this go?" and it definitely wasn't rewarding in the scope of gameplay.
On the other hand, I've died 5x trying to push a GV into an enemy field and clear the town, but my deaths told the tankers right next to me where my killer was hiding and they killed him. Despite multiple deaths I made it and guarded troops as they went into the map room. Pushing forward, keeping on target, on objective, even though I died many times was far more rewarding than just camping to artificially inflate a score.
I've done both. I've pushed forward. I've camped. I've tried to break through and been camped. I've bombed, I've strafed, I've spotted without engaging. GVs don't need invulnerability. They need a kick in the pants to keep on-mission. Being spotted is that kick. They should not operate alone, but with friendlies overhead. Before HTC killed GV icons I'd spot for tankers in battles to take fields once I'd cleared the area a bit. Tell them where to adjust rounds and ranging tips. Now, there's no point because you can't see them. It's a double standard, and those are innately unfair and unsatisfactory.
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: rvflyer on November 27, 2017, 01:29:17 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: bustr on November 27, 2017, 01:56:32 PM
To sneak or not to sneak.
So with the town and field on opposite sides of a river, and three bridges to cross in between. I'll have to think about my usual placement of the spawns three miles out from the town center on the town side. I still detest making it simple to sneak a tank onto an airfield because the tile painter just brushed the clutter tile across the airfield and moved on. That's why instead I do a number of feilds with the map room next to the tower so up front everyone knows the field will be assaulted by tanks.
Also, Hitech likes having a few airfields with no GV spawns. Still, he did go out of his way to debug bridges for me so I could use them on my last terrain. And that has many permutations to go on the theme being so new.
Put a spawn on the field side and you give the GVers a free lunch. Put it on the town side, and smart GVers will camp the three bridges from the town hills so an M4 has a free lunch with it's rockets on town buildings. I hate GV's but, a terrain is not about making what I like as much as providing a play space for the AH community by my terms. Dang GV combat terrain takes forever because it's like building 90 tank arenas inside of one air combat arena.
(https://s20.postimg.org/a9f2blzd9/medtst78.jpg)
Title: Re: What is Vehicle quadrant??
Post by: redcatcherb412 on November 27, 2017, 02:43:00 PM
Dang GV combat terrain takes forever because it's like building 90 tank arenas inside of one air combat arena.
You might think about making collisions with clouds equal to collisions with trees so air/ground combat would have an equivalent feel for maneuverability. :noid