Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JunkyII on December 02, 2017, 11:11:04 AM
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Someone please explain how teaching guys to HO is helping them overcome the learning curve in Aces High...and don't use the "they used it in WW2" because they didn't have the aim like we have in Aces High.
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From the desk of a noob...
Sometimes pulling the trigger is what this game is all about... ESPECIALLY for that poor guy that hasn't even had a chance at a kill... Red means dead.
I know it sux... But it is a game.
I KNOW you're better than that Junky.... It'll just take time for them noobs to figure it out...
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Who is doing this?
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From the desk of a noob...
Sometimes pulling the trigger is what this game is all about... ESPECIALLY for that poor guy that hasn't even had a chance at a kill... Red means dead.
I know it sux... But it is a game.
I KNOW you're better than that Junky.... It'll just take time for them noobs to figure it out...
I'm tracking that but people always talk about the learning curve and all they are doing by saying it's OK to HO is making that learning curve even steeper....see the problem with that?
Who is doing this?
Nice edit...Rodent57
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I'm tracking that but people always talk about the learning curve and all they are doing by saying it's OK to HO is making that learning curve even steeper....see the problem with that?
Nice edit...Rodent57
Thanks.
Rodent knows ACM. I'm confident he's giving newbies good instruction.
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As a relative noob could you explain HO please
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As a relative noob could you explain HO please
Head On...shooting nose to nose while planes are merging...was used in WW2 but in Aces High it just puts you out of position.
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As a relative noob could you explain HO please
Easy. Take the illusionary easy shot and lose angles and energy and die on the second turn :banana:
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As a relative noob could you explain HO please
The head on attack is the natural result when two newbies merge. The main problem with it is the bandit gets to shoot at you. The lead turn is the basic counter move. A lead turn is an early turn before you pass the bandit.
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Keep this in mind----I am NOT an expert! That being said, this is my understanding of a merge. You want to set up for YOUR planes strengths in the merge. Can be by setting an ANGLE for next turns, using either vertical OR linear separation AT THE MERGE? As I see all these great players bringing up the HO,like every day, it makes me ask this. If a "NOOB" is merging with YOU,in same manner you are merging WITH him. Why is it the "NOOBS" fault or lack of ACM. Sure the HO may not be the best tactic, but when I see another player trying to merge with me in a REAL close manner. I assume he is going to be firing away on the pass. I can count on one hand the number of semi-close COLD MERGES I have experienced in last year. I dont know all there is about ACM but I know this, if you dont want to get hoed set up a different merge. The experts in this game have or should have the ability to reduce their odds of getting hoed. Beats constantly griping about it on 200 also. Seems 3 out of 5 comments are about someone getting hoed.
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Keep this in mind----I am NOT an expert! That being said, this is my understanding of a merge. You want to set up for YOUR planes strengths in the merge. Can be by setting an ANGLE for next turns, using either vertical OR linear separation AT THE MERGE? As I see all these great players bringing up the HO,like every day, it makes me ask this. If a "NOOB" is merging with YOU,in same manner you are merging WITH him. Why is it the "NOOBS" fault or lack of ACM. Sure the HO may not be the best tactic, but when I see another player trying to merge with me in a REAL close manner. I assume he is going to be firing away on the pass. I can count on one hand the number of semi-close COLD MERGES I have experienced in last year. I dont know all there is about ACM but I know this, if you dont want to get hoed set up a different merge. The experts in this game have or should have the ability to reduce their odds of getting hoed. Beats constantly griping about it on 200 also. Seems 3 out of 5 comments are about someone getting hoed.
Agreed. It takes two to HO.
A player shouldn't put themselves in front of an enemies line of fire and expect them to wait, until said player finishes their fancy flying to get into position.
Coogan
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Agreed. It takes two to HO.
A player shouldn't put themselves in front of an enemies line of fire and expect them to wait, until said player finishes their fancy flying to get into position.
Coogan
:aok ALthough I have to admit that there are certainly times I'll take it, or at least wish I had because the other player does, especially if I climb up, and the higher bird roping me dives down on me while I'm wallowing still nose up, because the higher bird either thinks I'm going down or he has run out of e before I did, or if I'm in a desperate bad odds fight. But I much prefer to avoid the HO, and try to gain a position advantage.
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Iceman!.........Take the shot! In reality, I would say above 90% of the pilots in AH take the head-on shot. Approaching another plane is like playing chicken. You have no idea if the other pilot is going to take the shot or not. I try to avoid the head-on merge if I can, but I find that most of the time the merging plane opens fire anyways. That is even when I try to avoid it. So, I go with the flow if I need to and fire away. Look at it this way. If a pilot takes the head-on shot, he probably is not thinking: "Hey, this is going to be a great turn fight." The one who doesn't take it is looking to have an ACM fight and you both do your best to turn and get each other. Again, the game of chicken. It doesn't always go your way and there are brand new shiny planes in the hanger.
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A player shouldn't put themselves in front of an enemies line of fire and expect them to wait, until said player finishes their fancy flying to get into position.
Coogan
This pretty much sums it up for me. I try to avoid the HO because it is a 50/50 situation and I think I have a better chance using other tactics. Be clear though, I will take the HO shot every time I think I cannot avoid it.
Look at it from a noobs position. They can try ACM against you and lose 100% of the time. They can HO and increase their odds of winning to 50%. Pretty simple equation.
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Agreed. It takes two to HO.
A player shouldn't put themselves in front of an enemies line of fire and expect them to wait, until said player finishes their fancy flying to get into position.
Coogan
No, it only takes one guy to HO. Nobody says you have to go for and take a shot in that instance.
Yes, You never want to be in front of anyones guns, but it is a game and your going to end up there more often than not. Its the best place to get that lead turn going to get the angle on the other guy. In the game in many instances your dodging two, trying force an over shoot on one while two or more are spraying and praying in a HO merge.
Teaching those "HOers" to do a lead turn in that instance to drop in and get his shot/kill is a much better idea than the spray and pray deal.
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Right! I understand EXACTLY where you are coming from...Problem is, HOW is the NOOB supposed to know different? Peer pressure....He isnt going to go with that, as most of the pressure coming from peers is EITHER getting berated in PMs or ch 200 or shot at on the merge(like HE ISNT supposed to do). I adopted a Ho unto others as they will ho into you mentality. In my mind, if you dont want a HO in MA, advertise where and what you are flying....then I may trust that I can merge cold for a great turn fight. In the MA, I will take ANY shot you give me,its your job to stay out of my sights. If you insist on making THAT easy, I will shoot at you. There are times that on a merge I can develop it further, and recognize that the red isnt actually willing to fire on the merge! That is preferred, but after an hour or 2 of not seeing this happen...and YOU are expecting me to merge like that...thats ON YOU! And no amount of PEER PRESSURE and belittling will change that. It just makes them look silly. If you think you are superior...PROVE IT and shut up if you cant. Everyone dies...and here you can keep doing it! I love you guys, even FESS( :furious). Doesnt matter what I do with that guy, I am toast in 3 turns. But hey, I like toast :x
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1stpar3....thats what I'm getting at and 100coogn's response is a perfect example for my overall point.
If we got guys saying they will take the shot they aren't showing a good example for new players performance...which leads to them getting smacked down by the sharks and ends up making them quit.
Say I up a P40E...I can win a lot of fights against Spit 16s, Yak3s ect ect against players like GP5, Humboldt ect ect because these guys HO on a constant basis....if they would just learn how to actually merge they would have a lot more success and they wouldn't be jousting new sticks to the game.
Hotard said last night he has success with HOs...thats only because he has better aim then %90 of the community...same reason why 2cmex can get away with it...they have that aim but Noobs don't and people shouldn't be telling them it's ok because you are just failing them.
And it doesn't take 2 to HO...I can avoid all day and sooner or later one guy will get lucky.
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No, it only takes one guy to HO. Nobody says you have to go for and take a shot in that instance.
Yes, You never want to be in front of anyones guns, but it is a game and your going to end up there more often than not. Its the best place to get that lead turn going to get the angle on the other guy. In the game in many instances your dodging two, trying force an over shoot on one while two or more are spraying and praying in a HO merge
Agreed, it only takes one to HO shoot
I don't agree with the 2nd underlined/bold sentence/statement....unless I'm not reading and understanding what you mean by that....
You should never be in close proximity near a head on position, if you are setting up for a proper lead turn regardless of which direction you are engaging from... If you are setting up to go for a lead turn while merging flying towards one another....
Hope this helps
TC
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I see where you are coming from Junky,in my understanding though,in avoiding the Head on shot means it is a deflection shot. I will never pull into a PLAYING CHICKEN in an alley HEAD ON. If I understand you, this is what you are calling a HO, GUNS BLAZING MERGE? When I am referring to "Take the Ho shot" I am saying..I am setting up a merge,the RED INSTEAD of adjusting his approach TO MY plane of travel, rolls in to go ALLEY STYLE instead of setting up HIS MERGE....I will shoot at him. If nothing more than to make him rethink his merge. I was there first so why should I change? I will if I must, but thats just only way I can explain what I mean :uhoh Just about everyone takes the deflection shot,in my way of thinking that isnt a ho. If I am diving under a Red for the merge and he tries to keep me in his sights as I dive under,THAT Is NOT A HO. If I am climbing up to a RED and he noses over to meet me coming up that is NOT a ho. That was me being stupid against Fess or AKAK :cheers:
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Agreed, it only takes one to HO shoot
I don't agree with the 2nd underlined/bold sentence/statement....unless I'm not reading and understanding what you mean by that....
You should never be in close proximity near a head on position, if you are setting up for a proper lead turn regardless of which direction you are engaging from... If you are setting up to go for a lead turn while merging flying towards one another....
Hope this helps
TC
Ideally, no, but this is a game and it seems to be the number 1 move of many players, as Junky said "against players like GP5, Humboldt ect ect because these guys HO on a constant basis...." after all, nobody really dies.
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Gotcha, you was replying in reference to Junky's post
:aok
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I see more "snap HO" for a quick engine oiling, pilot wound, or just quick end to the fight these days with tracers off than I've ever seen HOing in the last 15 years. And Junky knows who most of them are, which is sad where things have devolved to by those players. So can you blame the newer players for HOing when their expectation is to be towered on any first pass once they manage to get to a fight? It really takes as much practice as learning ACM to learn how to avoid the majority of those well developed "snap HO's". And over 15 years I remember a significant number of those now HOing were vocal proponents of HOing ruins our game, so they didn't HO.
We did this to ourselves, the new players just like children did what we do to win.
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No, it only takes one guy to HO. Nobody says you have to go for and take a shot in that instance.
Yes, You never want to be in front of anyones guns, but it is a game and your going to end up there more often than not. Its the best place to get that lead turn going to get the angle on the other guy. In the game in many instances your dodging two, trying force an over shoot on one while two or more are spraying and praying in a HO merge.
Teaching those "HOers" to do a lead turn in that instance to drop in and get his shot/kill is a much better idea than the spray and pray deal.
If it only takes one guy to ho, who is he shooting at? There would be nobody there... (only one person)
Coogan
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Aircraft performance and energy states determine your options in the merge. An experienced trainer like Rodent57, with 35 years training real fighter pilots, can help a newbie understand his available choices.
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I more than likely dont understand the terminology, but as I understand this HO issue, it is a HOT MERGE. Snap ho, ho whatever it is called. Even in the AH wiki pages, several write ups on planes and fighting in them say, to take any available shot presented to you. In NIKI for example, reason given...AMOUNT OF AMMO and the fact that the NIKI is sort of frail in LW areas of engagement. I think DUELERS shouldnt mix tactics with open war players. Its not really fair to be judged by each other out of natural habitats. Cold merges are great for 1 on 1 who knows more ACM fights. Not so much in a 3 on 1. In MA its all about killing not style, as long as I have been here any way. Like moonshine vrs Bourbon both will get you drunk, but it takes time to understand BOURBON, Moonshine is just quicker to get results. Why get into a stall fight in a crowd,if you can rake them on the way through. May not be as much fun as a stall fight, but it gets results :uhoh
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1stpar3, where are you getting the theory that "DUELERS" are mixing tactics with "open war players"?
I haven't seen where anyone in this thread has posted such responses....to me that sounds as off subject target as comparing "it takes time to understand bourbon, Moonshine is just quicker to get results" .....
As far as some people thinking that it takes two to HO, it doesn't..... it only takes one.... That One, being the individual that makes the decision to do so..... It is that simple...
With that said, nobody should complain about HO's, it is your own fault if you get shot by a HO shot, specifically if it happens during a 1 VS 1 engagement, because you're at fault for allowing yourself to come nose to nose in the first place....
A HO shot is basically any frontal shot that is anywhere from 10 degrees off to dead on 0 degrees nose to nose....anything past that 10 degree cone is just another deflection shot...and most shots that people think are head on shots are truly deflection shots....people hate to admit that they got shot down or lost to a front quarter deflection shot and rather hide behind the excuse of "all you know how to do is HO"....
TC
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If it only takes one guy to ho, who is he shooting at? There would be nobody there... (only one person)
Coogan
It takes 2 guys to merge, it takes one A hole to fire and turn it into a joust.
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It takes one guy to merge in a way that lets the other guy get guns on him and expect him not to pull the trigger then whine ad nauseam about it too.
Wiley.
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1stpar3, where are you getting the theory that "DUELERS" are mixing tactics with "open war players"?
I haven't seen where anyone in this thread has posted such responses....to me that sounds as off subject target as comparing "it takes time to understand bourbon, Moonshine is just quicker to get results" .....
As far as some people thinking that it takes two to HO, it doesn't..... it only takes one.... That One, being the individual that makes the decision to do so..... It is that simple...
With that said, nobody should complain about HO's, it is your own fault if you get shot by a HO shot, specifically if it happens during a 1 VS 1 engagement, because you're at fault for allowing yourself to come nose to nose in the first place....
A HO shot is basically any frontal shot that is anywhere from 10 degrees off to dead on 0 degrees nose to nose....anything past that 10 degree cone is just another deflection shot...and most shots that people think are head on shots are truly deflection shots....people hate to admit that they got shot down or lost to a front quarter deflection shot and rather hide behind the excuse of "all you know how to do is HO"....
TC
Not exactly the intent there Tc. What I mean as far as diffrence in DA and MA..is the civilized design behind the engagement. A wild west, bar, gunfighter, WOULD NOT give a ruffian 20 steps with his back turned towards him IE the cold merge or any other of gentlemans agreements. As to the moonshine vrs bourbon it is the time dedicated to the craft sir! Da experts are the distillers and the Ma crowd tend to be the quick get moonshiners. simply an analogy to express my meanings. Figured it would be easier to draw a picture guess not. True sir, it only takes one guy to ho...question is, if you are getting shot AT, why not return fire. OK, if its not your style. UNDERSTANDABLE. I am not that evolved I guess, shoot at me I shoot back. I was just refering to the MA tactics devolveing to the point of, what ever to get the kill. I can understand the DUELERS side also, like with Bourbon analogy. IT TAKES TIME to mature those skills. Its refined and you can see the effort even through a glass bottle. Sorry you didnt see what I was saying, maybe this explaination helps ya out TACTICS was the wrong word. meant more game play styles. Kill or be killed.... or ballroom dancing to the death
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I get where you are coming from 1stpar3.
It may be a mentality or it may be a plane mismatch or different in energy states but at times in the MA you can box, you can brawl or you can wrestle. Junky wants us all to be honourable boxers using intricate skills to defeat the opponent. Me too a lot of the time but there are times when it is right to brawl or wrestle the fight. The skilled boxer can sidestep but now and again he will get clotheslined or wrapped up in a clinch.
The issue with new guys is they often lack the skills to box so they have to charge in with their arms flailing. It takes time for them to learn the more intricate skills.
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Thanks for replying 1stpar3, to decipher your original post that I quoted you on...
Fess explaining it in his words made it easier to see what you were saying....
Thank you for posting that view of it, Fess!
TC
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Thanks for replying 1stpar3, to decipher your original post that I quoted you on...
Fess explaining it in his words made it easier to see what you were saying....
Thank you for posting that view of it, Fess!
TC
I know, RIGHT! :furious THAT GUY :D I wish the MA was honorable like that. The way the old days have been recalled, even though I am sure it was still a bit hit and miss in thee honor area. I guess its more an issue now, as most of the honorable guys no longer play? I have only been here with you guys since 2013, and have noticed the same trends in game play style. With that in mind, I guess its easier for me to roll with these circumstances, as its really all I have known. So not as big an issue for me. Wish I had the answer to fix it but do have some issues with how some guys are trying to effect that change to happen. PMs and 200 rants, on a person isnt going to work IMO. That just makes some do it again..or just flat runs some off. I have seen that happen twice, on guys I have brought in to give the game a whirl. In my opinion it would be best just to accept the situation, we really cant afford to lose even 1 more player as that definitely wont help. Oh and with a name like TEQUILA CHASER, didnt figure the alcohol analogy would have been lost on you :x I dont take a thing in here personally, so dont worry about questioning me or calling BS. I love you guys and owe this community more than you all know. So family has to come first above ego :cheers: The Moonshine vs Bourbon was simple I thought. What I meant was, some take the time to put every thing together and do the hard work to craft a superior spirit, while those just interested in getting a fast spirit to intoxicate themselves, will skip all the prepping and hard work to just get drunk. Both sides have one thing in common too....Bourbon and Shine both start with the same processes... its the dedication and pride in ones product that really makes the Bourbon- :cheers: like guys, to stand out
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1stpar3....thats what I'm getting at and 100coogn's response is a perfect example for my overall point.
If we got guys saying they will take the shot they aren't showing a good example for new players performance...which leads to them getting smacked down by the sharks and ends up making them quit.
Say I up a P40E...I can win a lot of fights against Spit 16s, Yak3s ect ect against players like GP5, Humboldt ect ect because these guys HO on a constant basis....if they would just learn how to actually merge they would have a lot more success and they wouldn't be jousting new sticks to the game.
Hotard said last night he has success with HOs...thats only because he has better aim then %90 of the community...same reason why 2cmex can get away with it...they have that aim but Noobs don't and people shouldn't be telling them it's ok because you are just failing them.
And it doesn't take 2 to HO...I can avoid all day and sooner or later one guy will get lucky.
I absolutely agree JUNKY, even if I dont fully follow your reasoning on calling out HOs. Reason is, every game I have ever played..from Combat Simulator 1 to ACES and even DCS have same thing....ALL th AI planes are firing away on the merge. So I really cant understand why it is so taboo with you? Sure, these HO only or new guys are just putting themselves in an losing situation in long term. BUT, to me it would be better to keep squashing these guys, until they decide that what they are doing is all wrong, or feel sorry for them and offer them help with tis. THEN chime in on 200 or PM to offer advice? I know you probably lean in this area, as you have been a class act whenever I have asked " WTF, how did you do that!". Then again I am pretty much a self starter with zero pride issues.BUT put off by the rest of the guys that gripe on 200 and PMs about someone doing the same thing AI pilots do. See where I am coming from? Just makes it harder to convince some folk to abandon that approach. That was my issue for a while...
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Aircraft performance and energy states determine your options in the merge. An experienced trainer like Rodent57, with 35 years training real fighter pilots, can help a newbie understand his available choices.
Available choice vs the right choice....I could have told privates it was right for them to just lay down superior fire but no... I told them to lay down fire while finding a position of cover and at least concealment....you' re setting a noob up for failure every time you tell him taking a HO shot is ok.
I absolutely agree JUNKY, even if I dont fully follow your reasoning on calling out HOs. Reason is, every game I have ever played..from Combat Simulator 1 to ACES and even DCS have same thing....ALL th AI planes are firing away on the merge. So I really cant understand why it is so taboo with you? Sure, these HO only or new guys are just putting themselves in an losing situation in long term. BUT, to me it would be better to keep squashing these guys, until they decide that what they are doing is all wrong, or feel sorry for them and offer them help with tis. THEN chime in on 200 or PM to offer advice? I know you probably lean in this area, as you have been a class act whenever I have asked " WTF, how did you do that!". Then again I am pretty much a self starter with zero pride issues.BUT put off by the rest of the guys that gripe on 200 and PMs about someone doing the same thing AI pilots do. See where I am coming from? Just makes it harder to convince some folk to abandon that approach. That was my issue for a while...
I hear you bud, but its probably my military background...people were "greifed" when they did something stupid and tried to argue it was right.....people who actually showed a "I want to learn the right way" got nothing but respect...I do try to help anyone willing to listen, and most times I'm talking about HOs I'm hoping the other guy listens but I admit I'm probably going about it the wrong way because I'm kinda of an A Hole....sorry just who I've become from experience the last 10 years.
It takes one guy to merge in a way that lets the other guy get guns on him and expect him not to pull the trigger then whine ad nauseam about it too.
Wiley.
I bet a years subscription in 10 attempts I can get "Guns on" you every single time 1v1 no matter how hard you avoid.....doesn't mean I'm going to shoot you down but going to hopefully show you that your wrong....seriously though...I'll make it 2 years and if you lose the bet you don't have to give me crap....just say I'm right....
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Heck the worst player in Aces High vs the Best is going to get guns on in a merge if they wanted to :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
HAHAHAHAHAHA it's like some of you live in a dream world and started playing yesterday
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Without presuming to speak for Junky, and just to correct a small misconception - I don't think anyone with approximately Junky's level of skill is going to face 50-50 odds against a HOing merger - it's probably a fair bit under 1% success rate for the HOer even if he's the best shot in game.
Not so taboo on a fight-per-fight-basis, it just limits the mid to long-term player's development which ironically those horrid dueller-types seem to care about. Perhaps because from experience you know once an opponent goes for that shot there is no prospect for a good fight thereafter. They'll never get the angles and energy back. Nosing for the deck and running for home is the best option - which is no longer a fight of course (and yes quite common in the MA).
The biggest irony of AH is that if you ever want to take a step on that dueller-type, ACM road, those irritating elitist dueller types are likely the first to give up valuable time helping and teaching you. Which reminds me...
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I bet a years subscription in 10 attempts I can get "Guns on" you every single time 1v1 no matter how hard you avoid.....doesn't mean I'm going to shoot you down but going to hopefully show you that your wrong....seriously though...I'll make it 2 years and if you lose the bet you don't have to give me crap....just say I'm right....
10 out of 10 some kind of ping first merge? Say when, whatever they call the DA now. Just use the airspawns, merge, then auger and do it again. No money, just a simple "you were right" either way. I can be on tonight if that works.
Wiley.
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I bet a years subscription in 10 attempts I can get "Guns on" you every single time 1v1 no matter how hard you avoid.....doesn't mean I'm going to shoot you down but going to hopefully show you that your wrong....seriously though...I'll make it 2 years and if you lose the bet you don't have to give me crap....just say I'm right....
Wow, you're awesome. Do you get excited when you see yourself in the mirror?
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Without presuming to speak for Junky, and just to correct a small misconception - I don't think anyone with approximately Junky's level of skill is going to face 50-50 odds against a HOing merger - it's probably a fair bit under 1% success rate for the HOer even if he's the best shot in game.
Not so taboo on a fight-per-fight-basis, it just limits the mid to long-term player's development which ironically those horrid dueller-types seem to care about. Perhaps because from experience you know once an opponent goes for that shot there is no prospect for a good fight thereafter. They'll never get the angles and energy back. Nosing for the deck and running for home is the best option - which is no longer a fight of course (and yes quite common in the MA).
The biggest irony of AH is that if you ever want to take a step on that dueller-type, ACM road, those irritating elitist dueller types are likely the first to give up valuable time helping and teaching you. Which reminds me...
Now that post I can agree with. Although I have seen the occasional guy that can put up a decent fight after a ho. He is fighting from the bottom though.
Wiley.
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Wow, you're awesome. Do you get excited when you see yourself in the mirror?
Its not a matter of being good, it's confidence that you can get a gun resolution on anyone avoiding an HO shot...is it a high percentage shot? No like Shida said it might be 1% but that's not the point all they are doing is limiting their ability.
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10 out of 10 some kind of ping first merge? Say when, whatever they call the DA now. Just use the airspawns, merge, then auger and do it again. No money, just a simple "you were right" either way. I can be on tonight if that works.
Wiley.
Going to Lake Tahoe this weekend but I'll hit you up next time I'm on.
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I like early and mid merge breakers. A quick low angle face shot can make all the difference. If i'm packing more firepower than you you can expect a half face fast shot or full HO. If I'm low E and doing the nearly tethered blimp thing and jumped, yep, you will be ho'd. And please cry about it on the chat thingy, it's so entertaining.
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I like early and mid merge breakers. A quick low angle face shot can make all the difference. If i'm packing more firepower than you you can expect a half face fast shot or full HO. If I'm low E and doing the nearly tethered blimp thing and jumped, yep, you will be ho'd. And please cry about it on the chat thingy, it's so entertaining.
^^^^This guys wife probably pegs him :bolt:
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(https://i.imgur.com/Ep8fD5L.png)
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I like early and mid merge breakers. A quick low angle face shot can make all the difference. If i'm packing more firepower than you you can expect a half face fast shot or full HO. If I'm low E and doing the nearly tethered blimp thing and jumped, yep, you will be ho'd. And please cry about it on the chat thingy, it's so entertaining.
The HO is just another reason why players dont stick around. 20-30 HOs and they figure that they aren't "winning" enough of them and soon get bored and so move on. Having to dodge HO attempt after HO attempt is almost as bad..... why bother? There are other games to play, and so we lose more players.
Practice, learn a few moves, LEARN TO FIGHT!
(https://i.imgur.com/Ep8fD5L.png)
Do you even play any more?
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Do you even play any more?
Yup. Do you? :)
Your cartoons used to hint at a sense of humor. ;)
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When I used to be a Trainer, I told my students to take any shot provided the enemy cannot return fire. While I used to be a purist, I accept that the possibility of a head on pass needs to be there to prevent lead turns from occurring so early that it is performed in front of the enemy aircraft.
The same individuals (other than new players) that rely on the HO pass are the cannon equipped ENY5 veterans. If you want to play like this, go ahead, but you won't be stroking any ego other than your own. As Frank Leahy once said, "Ego is the anesthesia that dulls the pain of stupidity."
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For most of my AH career, I believed in the "don't HO" mentality. All the while, getting HOd by just about anyone that thought they could get away with it.
Outnumbered many vs 1 or 1v1 made no difference. Plenty of "name" players HOd just like the noobs and that continues to this day.
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I've never really taken ho whines seriously, no matter how they're disguised. :D
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The HO is just another reason why players dont stick around. 20-30 HOs and they figure that they aren't "winning" enough of them and soon get bored and so move on. Having to dodge HO attempt after HO attempt is almost as bad.....
Yes. I am sure if more of them experienced a proper merge and were then shot down in the first 2 turns 20 or 30 times, their experience would be ever so much better. :rolleyes:
BTW Junky, you on tonight? I'm up for some education if you are. (Not sure who's going to get educated, but somebody will)
Wiley.
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Yes. I am sure if more of them experienced a proper merge and were then shot down in the first 2 turns 20 or 30 times, their experience would be ever so much better. :rolleyes:
BTW Junky, you on tonight? I'm up for some education if you are. (Not sure who's going to get educated, but somebody will)
Wiley.
I am hoping to be on tonight, was on the other day...CH manager was reading my controllers...game was showing they were there but wasn't getting any input.
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I am hoping to be on tonight, was on the other day...CH manager was reading my controllers...game was showing they were there but wasn't getting any input.
Cool. If your stuff's working shoot me a PM if you see me and I don't see you. Should only take about 15 minutes or so.
Wiley.
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Yes. I am sure if more of them experienced a proper merge and were then shot down in the first 2 turns 20 or 30 times, their experience would be ever so much better. :rolleyes:
BTW Junky, you on tonight? I'm up for some education if you are. (Not sure who's going to get educated, but somebody will)
Wiley
your an all or nothing kind of guy aren't ya
You can honestly believe that some semblance of a fight, even if it is only 2 turns is the same as a joust ?
I spent the afternoon once going against violator in 109s. He beat me every time. It was fun, even tho I lost every fight, until he went for a HO. I asked him why the Ho? The answer was it was the only way he could get me that time.
Fights over, I went looking some other fight, don't care what violator did after that. I just left that front, I know of some who have left the game. Why encourage anyone to go for the HO?
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Usually when I see an enemy setting up for a HO on a merge, I lick my lips and start to cause some lateral separation with a slight bank. Think will get them to pull into me to try and adjust their lead shot on me. At that point I can normally do a lead turn inside them, end up on their 6 and watch them dive and run away to the nearest ack (P51 and Dora Pilots especially).
There is however the HO shots that are mostly unavoidable. These are the LA and Spit junkies who's only tactic if they have an enemy on their 6 is to pull a hard loop and face blast the target behind them. In these instances, I have no problem opening up on the guys pulling around on me. Then when they whine on 200 afterwards with "Nice HO" I just laugh, because that's exactly what they were trying to do and got beat. :joystick:
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your an all or nothing kind of guy aren't ya
Fights over, I went looking some other fight, don't care what violator did after that. I just left that front
Not so much, but it sure seems like you are.
You can honestly believe that some semblance of a fight, even if it is only 2 turns is the same as a joust ?
You honestly think losing a joust for a newb is materially different from getting manhandled in 1 or 2 turns?
Why encourage anyone to go for the HO?
I don't encourage them to go for the HO. I discourage it by avoiding it, as opposed to posting 20 page whine threads in the forums. If you guys spent half the energy you spend browbeating people on 200 and the forums learning to avoid the HO, it would be a non-factor in the game.
Instead, you fly in front of a guy and then whine when he pulls the trigger.
Wiley.
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You honestly think losing a joust for a newb is materially different from getting manhandled in 1 or 2 turns?
I do.
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I do.
Actually, you're right. Occasionally if he jousts, he'll get to put some rounds into the other guy.
Wiley.
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Actually, you're right. Occasionally if he jousts, he'll get to put some rounds into the other guy.
I was thinking eventually he might get interested in how another player is out-manoeuvring him in short order and look into improving his ACM.
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I was thinking eventually he might get interested in how another player is out-manoeuvring him in short order and look into improving his ACM.
...Which somehow doesn't occur if the other guy avoids his HO, then kills him in a turn or two? It seems like some people think the single bestest way to get people interested in ACM is to whine about HOs and shun people who do it while browbeating them.
Wiley.
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Did the film player stop working? I bet players who want to know how they got beat could use that. I also bet players who win ho's will just keep using the ho if the opponent that lost to the ho cries bout it. Maybe he/she will even if there's no crying/posturing/faux superiority at all.
Funny how some people invent reasons to be discontent.
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...Which somehow doesn't occur if the other guy avoids his HO, then kills him in a turn or two? It seems like some people think the single bestest way to get people interested in ACM is to whine about HOs and shun people who do it while browbeating them.
I'm not quite following you. I thought you were asking if there was any advantage for the less knowledgeable player not to try and HO, and get killed two turns later instead. I'm not thinking short-term with my observation.
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I'm not quite following you. I thought you were asking if there was any advantage for the less knowledgeable player not to try and HO, and get killed two turns later instead. I'm not thinking short-term with my observation.
Perhaps its the methodology.
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I'm not quite following you. I thought you were asking if there was any advantage for the less knowledgeable player not to try and HO, and get killed two turns later instead. I'm not thinking short-term with my observation.
What I'm saying is, if he gets HOed down 20-30 times in a row versus getting killed in 1 or 2 turns 20-30 times in a row, his experience is not significantly improved. His fun factor has not been materially increased. I would point out that getting manhandled 30 times in a row in 2 turns might actually encourage the guy to take the face shot because he's likely going to win a couple of those hodowns and it will appear in the short term to be more effective than dying consistently by not taking it.
My point is, you ace pile-its should be showing them the HO is ineffective by dodging it and proving it to them, rather than by browbeating them because it's "not cricket" because all you're effectively saying is, "ACM works unless the other guy's actually trying to kill you."
Wiley.
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My point is, you ace pile-its should be showing them the HO is ineffective by dodging it and proving it to them, rather than by browbeating them because it's "not cricket"
That's a pretty good point.
- oldman
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Most times when I am in the position to take/receive a HO shot, I will hold my fire and hope the other guy does too.
Almost always, we will pass each other and then the fun begins.
There are nights though it seems the other player always fires, when I'm thinking 'ok this is going to be a fair fight'. On those occasions I'll grab a Mossie.
Coogan
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What I'm saying is, if he gets HOed down 20-30 times in a row versus getting killed in 1 or 2 turns 20-30 times in a row, his experience is not significantly improved.
Not that evening no.
My point is, you ace pile-its should be showing them the HO is ineffective by dodging it and proving it to them, rather than by browbeating them because it's "not cricket" because all you're effectively saying is, "ACM works unless the other guy's actually trying to kill you."
Well you've pretty well described exactly what I used to do at the lake. I had to teach myself to avoid and later exploit it because it was so common. At the same time the culture condoned it. When the topic comes up periodically I sometimes suggest why it's a bad thing to do for yourself from an ACM perspective. However 'put yourself in the other fellows gunsight - get shot' I once read around here someplace. Seems reasonable.
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Most times when I am in the position to take/receive a HO shot, I will hold my fire and hope the other guy does too.
Every time I read this (and its been said/posted often) it makes me laugh.
AH isn't a game of 'hope and chivalry.' Dodge, fire .... but enough with the 'hope' stuff. ;)
Anyone ever ask themselves why HT didn't model AW's forward cone of semi-invulnerability from HOs?
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Not that evening no.
Fugi's contention was that the HO drives away newbies because they will die to it a lot.
Well you've pretty well described exactly what I used to do at the lake. I had to teach myself to avoid and later exploit it because it was so common. At the same time the culture condoned it. When the topic comes up periodically I sometimes suggest why it's a bad thing to do for yourself from an ACM perspective.
I don't think I've ever seen the culture "condone HOs" outside of Pacific scenarios/FSOs. I agree, there are better options than the HO on the merge.
However 'put yourself in the other fellows gunsight - get shot' I once read around here someplace. Seems reasonable.
Precisely. Finding yourself in position to be shot down by the enemy is commonly referred to as "losing the fight." Doing it intentionally as your first move and hoping the guy doesn't fire is lunacy. May as well stick your hand in the lion's mouth and then whine when he bites you.
Wiley.
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Every time I read this (and its been said/posted often) it makes me laugh.
AH isn't a game of 'hope and chivalry.' Dodge, fire .... but enough with the 'hope' stuff. ;)
Anyone ever ask themselves why HT didn't model AW's forward cone of semi-invulnerability from HOs?
True, it doesn't always pan out my way. I have yet to rage quit over it though.
Coogan
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My point is, you ace pile-its should be showing them the HO is ineffective by dodging it and proving it to them,
Additionally, dodging it isn't all you get with a decent merge though. You also gain angles and e. But I long ago gave up trying to influence people positively in this regard. As Stan Laurel once said - 'You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.'
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I don't think I've ever seen the culture "condone HOs" outside of Pacific scenarios/FSOs.
I meant to say did not condone / did not approve... I must slow down sometimes.
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Additionally, dodging it isn't all you get with a decent merge though. You also gain angles and e. But I long ago gave up trying to influence people positively in this regard. As Stan Laurel once said - 'You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.'
I guess it's just a pet peeve. We could be doing so much better than "HO BAD! HO PEOPLE BAD PEOPLE!" to teach new guys. Especially when people set themselves up as some kind of guru with that attitude.
I meant to say did not condone / did not approve... I must slow down sometimes.
Heh. It amazes me how often I type the opposite of what I mean to say too.
Wiley.
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Fugi's contention was that the HO drives away newbies because they will die to it a lot.
I don't think I've ever seen the culture "condone HOs" outside of Pacific scenarios/FSOs. I agree, there are better options than the HO on the merge.
Precisely. Finding yourself in position to be shot down by the enemy is commonly referred to as "losing the fight." Doing it intentionally as your first move and hoping the guy doesn't fire is lunacy. May as well stick your hand in the lion's mouth and then whine when he bites you.
Wiley.
No Newbies will die a lot because that's what baby seals do....but the initial point is nobody should be telling them to take a HO shot....they are stunting their ACM potential.
Your example of 30 HOs vs 30 death to 2 turns...A player will learn more about the merge, angles, energy management in the fights they last 2 turns then they would in a joust.
Literally made this post after an AH Trainer said on 200 HOs are ok when it was 3 v 1 and they had the alt advantage....so he was saying it's OK to give a gun solution to a lower plane when there's 2 friendly helping him kill that plane....THAT'S STUPID. And it is evident that it is being shown to newbs because people are going for HO shots in terrible situations, you see it all the time and you watch people who have all the advantages in ACM die because they are ignorant.
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Your example of 30 HOs vs 30 death to 2 turns...A player will learn more about the merge, angles, energy management in the fights they last 2 turns then they would in a joust.
Yep. He'll learn even more if he learns to merge so that he's not giving the other guy a good shot on the way in.
Wiley.
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Heh. It amazes me how often I type the opposite of what I mean to say too.
I've got the dyslexics. On reflection I was probably thinking of the word condemned.
I guess it's just a pet peeve. We could be doing so much better than "HO BAD! HO PEOPLE BAD PEOPLE!" to teach new guys. Especially when people set themselves up as some kind of guru with that attitude.
I really don't think being either critical or encouraging makes that much diffference. Stan Laurel knew his stuff. This particular thread's been up for 10 days and had 581 reads. Even though I've eluded how much you can exploit the merge HO, not a single person has asked once how to do it technically nor asked for a tutorial or a specific training session.
Learning in a game is perhaps considered work these days. :old:
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True, it doesn't always pan out my way. I have yet to rage quit over it though.
Good. You're better than that. :salute :cheers:
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Yep. He'll learn even more if he learns to merge so that he's not giving the other guy a good shot on the way in.
Wiley.
Like I said :headscratch:
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I really don't think being either critical or encouraging makes that much diffference. Stan Laurel knew his stuff. This particular thread's been up for 10 days and had 581 reads. Even though I've eluded how much you can exploit the merge HO, not a single person has asked once how to do it technically nor asked for a tutorial or a specific training session.
Learning in a game is perhaps considered work these days. :old:
The bolded part is very true. However, I think demonstrating ingame what works and what doesn't work changes peoples' minds a HECK of a lot better than browbeating them on 200/the forum.
The thing is not everybody plays to learn to be the bestest fastest. To a certain degree, training can feel like "work". It's like golf, or pool. Lessons can take you leaps and bounds further than muddling through on your own, but not everybody wants to put that kind of pressure on an activity that's supposed to be fun and/or relaxing.
It may not happen today or tomorrow, but I'd be surprised if this thread hasn't caused a few people to file away the fact that "Shida says he knows something about avoiding the HO and turning it against the other guy. I'll have to hit him up about that at some point."
Wiley.
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Good. You're better than that. :salute :cheers:
:salute :cheers:
10-4.
Coogan
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Your example of 30 HOs vs 30 death to 2 turns...A player will learn more about the merge, angles, energy management in the fights they last 2 turns then they would in a joust.
My point was, their fun factor isn't going to necessarily be significantly higher dying in 2 turns vs getting hoed down.
Literally made this post after an AH Trainer said on 200 HOs are ok when it was 3 v 1 and they had the alt advantage....so he was saying it's OK to give a gun solution to a lower plane when there's 2 friendly helping him kill that plane....THAT'S STUPID.
There's a big difference between taking it if it's presented, and setting up for it. Occasionally when things have gone somewhat wrong, you're at high speed and committed, the 1 has the ability to get his guns on you. If you've found yourself in that position, why would you not fire? Also, what a TON of guys call a "HO" in that situation is the other guy being vaguely near the front of his windscreen when he shot.
And it is evident that it is being shown to newbs because people are going for HO shots in terrible situations, you see it all the time and you watch people who have all the advantages in ACM die because they are ignorant.
You're presupposing they're being "shown" anything other than what they see other people doing in the MA. Not everybody looks for training and is committed to being the bestest pile-it.
Wiley.
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My point was, their fun factor isn't going to necessarily be significantly higher dying in 2 turns vs getting hoed down.
There's a big difference between taking it if it's presented, and setting up for it. Occasionally when things have gone somewhat wrong, you're at high speed and committed, the 1 has the ability to get his guns on you. If you've found yourself in that position, why would you not fire? Also, what a TON of guys call a "HO" in that situation is the other guy being vaguely near the front of his windscreen when he shot.
You're presupposing they're being "shown" anything other than what they see other people doing in the MA. Not everybody looks for training and is committed to being the bestest pile-it.
Wiley.
Their fun factor will be the same correct but that doesnt help the long term for them....which leads to more fun.
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98% of players will not fall under these hopes for their future growth. They play this game for fun and nothing else, not to join an ACMZen dojo or, seek a Dr. Phil of Aces High to polish their soul. Most of this conversation is AH Forum virtue signaling. You have a secret to doing something about the HO, stop competing for a Yoda part in the next Star Blooppers with a bunch of forum members competing to play Yoda against you. Just tell players how to do it at the tops of your lungs any chance you get. They will listen or tell you to go eat some high quality Ghiradelli Chocolates and to stop telling them how to play the game.
You guys are like the golf pro's at the golf pro retirement home when a grand kid comes to visit and starts telling grand dad about going to play putt putt golf.
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98% of players will not fall under these hopes for their future growth. They play this game for fun and nothing else, not to join an ACMZen dojo or, seek a Dr. Phil of Aces High to polish their soul. Most of this conversation is AH Forum virtue signaling. You have a secret to doing something about the HO, stop competing for a Yoda part in the next Star Blooppers with a bunch of forum members competing to play Yoda against you. Just tell players how to do it at the tops of your lungs any chance you get. They will listen or tell you to go eat some high quality Ghiradelli Chocolates and to stop telling them how to play the game.
You guys are like the golf pro's at the golf pro retirement home when a grand kid comes to visit and starts telling grand dad about going to play putt putt golf.
Um, some of us enjoy discussing game-play on the AHIII forums. (this is the right place is it not?) :old:
Coogan
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Um, some of us enjoy discussing game-play on the AHIII forums. (this is the right place is it not?) :old:
Coogan
Glad someone sees the problem....look at every wishlist post and you will find some veteran of Aces High saying the game is fine the way it is....on a discussion board....
Heck other video games have dedicated Youtube/twitch streams discussing updates to the game ect ect ect....
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You have a secret to doing something about the HO, stop competing for a Yoda part in the next Star Blooppers with a bunch of forum members competing to play Yoda against you. Just tell players how to do it at the tops of your lungs any chance you get. They will listen or tell you to go eat some high quality Ghiradelli Chocolates and to stop telling them how to play the game.
'Tis indeed an attractive offer Bustr. You're suggesting people like Junky and I, say, should just hand over knowledge and technique it took hundreds of deaths and countless hours of reading, experimentation and practice to acquire to those who show absolutely no active interest in learning or working, while simultaneously being insulted and disrespected by those with no willingness or clue how to do said work themselves and who are at the same time so vitriolically bitter towards those that have, that the only conclusion can be people like Junky and I are only contributing to the discussion (about ACM, I'll remind you) in order that we can have you all worship us as some fictional movie characters from a space opera or Kung Fu movie.
Oh yes indeed, please hold my beer while I put on my Father Christmas outfit for you while you passively sit there waiting for presents and b**ching about how long it's taking.
You guys are like the golf pro's at the golf pro retirement home when a grand kid comes to visit and starts telling grand dad about going to play putt putt golf.
No we are trying to encourage people to stop taking the short-term immediate results-based lazy approach and invest a bit to time and energy to get more reward at a later date. More reward for everyone. It's ironic that this kind of laziness is attributed to the youth of today. In my experience their egos are far less entrenched in self-protection mode and are far more willing to work. The information on this forum about ACM is both abundant and peer reviewed. Each time I post something advanced I'm hoping to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable than I because it would take US ALL further. Look Bustr, here's what we call evidence:
Thank you sir. I recently heard about your past activities. Feel free to correct.
This is the post of a self-appointed Kung Fu master? Surely the attitude of an ongoing student is it not? Now look at the date. It's clearly before your accusation. Now go ahead and click on the link and roll up the thread. That was in something I spent an hour of my valuable time writing for others, with no requirement that anyone even need say thank you, let alone call me Yoda or Master Shida. And why? Because someone showed an active interest in the part of AH I'm interested in and was clearly prepared to commit some time to learning.
There are at least a dozen players in Aces High who are using ACM which is so advanced it doesn't even appear in the seminal texts. But you've decided, as the self appointed representative of the poor victimised Air Quake movement, that it's perfectly fine for the majority of inexperienced players (or uber noobs) to not grow their ACM at all, in a game centred on Air Combat (<- see, you just add the M part on the end to see the relevance of discussing these matters).
What you are essentially implying is that you prefer what Bruv119 or Joach1m does, for example, and never discuss any ACM or technique at all and make no contributions to any discussion firmly seated under this topic? Not even when asked privately for help. They'll just let you talk to the wall while out flying you and shooting you down. That would be somehow less confronting for you perhaps?
Let me just have a quick think how much effort it would cost me to do...
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My 2 cent's (also what i tell new guys in my squad).
Ho'ing is bad and its a sign of being a noob. If you are expecting to get HO'ed at the merge use your rudder and slide at an angle so he will (9 out of 10 times) miss you. Try and learn a good merging tactic's and learn ALL planes strengths and weaknesses so you can apply the best merge you know in a given match up/ energy state. If you must HO do it only for the following reasons. 1 to save your wingman (when he is about to be shot down) or 2 when massively outnumbered on the deck and they come straight at you (3 on your tail turning with you and another hero coming from the front).
Other than that it just shows you your not confident in your own skill, not willing to learn and do not care about a gentleman's joust.
That being said i had to HO last night as well. Situation 1 applied. It left a foul taste in my mouth doing so.
More on a personal level it can really piss me off when pilots are HO'ing for no real apparent reason. Especially when i know my opponent so much better than that.
DutchVII
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'Tis indeed an attractive offer Bustr. You're suggesting people like Junky and I, say, should just hand over knowledge and technique it took hundreds of deaths and countless hours of reading, experimentation and practice to acquire to those who show absolutely no active interest in learning or working, while simultaneously being insulted and disrespected by those with no willingness or clue how to do said work themselves and who are at the same time so vitriolically bitter towards those that have, that the only conclusion can be ..... ....snip
Way too much typing. All pretense of 'pro-community' pretty much goes down the drain in the first paragraph. The true motive of this verbose exercise can be summed up more concisely:
"I'm pissed at people taking shortcuts in killing me or trying to kill me in Aces High while I took valuable time learning ACM and all because they were too lazy to beg me to teach them ACM and all and they deserve my public derision because that will make the game better .... for me."
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for me."
For everyone.
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For everyone.
Not through that methodology. If someone really wants to make it about 'the community' then reign in verbalized frustration and just set an example. And seriously, going on about one's valuable experience in developing ACM not being worth sharing with new players that aren't properly begging for it along with the part about not being given the respect one supposedly earned is rather telling.
No ..... this isn't about community, at all. :old:
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My 2 cent's (also what i tell new guys in my squad).
Ho'ing is bad and its a sign of being a noob. If you are expecting to get HO'ed at the merge use your rudder and slide at an angle so he will (9 out of 10 times) miss you. Try and learn a good merging tactic's and learn ALL planes strengths and weaknesses so you can apply the best merge you know in a given match up/ energy state. If you must HO do it only for the following reasons. 1 to save your wingman (when he is about to be shot down) or 2 when massively outnumbered on the deck and they come straight at you (3 on your tail turning with you and another hero coming from the front).
Other than that it just shows you your not confident in your own skill, not willing to learn and do not care about a gentleman's joust.
That being said i had to HO last night as well. Situation 1 applied. It left a foul taste in my mouth doing so.
More on a personal level it can really piss me off when pilots are HO'ing for no real apparent reason. Especially when i know my opponent so much better than that.
DutchVII
This about catches it. About the only thing I'd add is, every single time you merge with a guy, expect him to take the shot. Plan your merge to avoid it every time. That way, if he doesn't you're still in good shape, and if he does take the shot, you've done what you can to avoid it and aren't relying on him playing by Marquis of Queensbury gentlemanly chivalric super moral and awesome rules which he may or may not know or care about.
Don't avoid HOing because it's not gentlemanly. Avoid HOing because it's a bad move outside the circumstances TWCAxew described above. Even then, it's more of a last resort but better than nothing. And if through the flow of battle in a furball you wind up face to face with another plane by happenstance/accident, take the shot.
Wiley.
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You're suggesting people like Junky and I, say, should just hand over knowledge and technique it took hundreds of deaths and countless hours of reading, experimentation and practice to acquire to those who show absolutely no active interest in learning or working, while simultaneously being insulted and disrespected by those with no willingness or clue how to do said work themselves and who are at the same time so vitriolically bitter
Unfortunately, Aces High will need people that will contribute or it will perish.
Your decision, your call.
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:salute :cheers:
This about catches it. About the only thing I'd add is, every single time you merge with a guy, expect him to take the shot. Plan your merge to avoid it every time. That way, if he doesn't you're still in good shape, and if he does take the shot, you've done what you can to avoid it and aren't relying on him playing by Marquis of Queensbury gentlemanly chivalric super moral and awesome rules which he may or may not know or care about.
Don't avoid HOing because it's not gentlemanly. Avoid HOing because it's a bad move outside the circumstances TWCAxew described above. Even then, it's more of a last resort but better than nothing. And if through the flow of battle in a furball you wind up face to face with another plane by happenstance/accident, take the shot.
Wiley.
:salute :cheers:
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These ho post are always less than perspicuous. Next there will be a call for htc to fix the model so no head on damage will occur.
If a cartoon plane turns in a ho direction you shot it.
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IMHO it's really only worth getting salty about if someone blasts you in the face in a duel. I used to get bent out of shape about it but me getting mad has never changed anything.
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Way too much typing. All pretense of 'pro-community' pretty much goes down the drain in the first paragraph. The true motive of this verbose exercise can be summed up more concisely:
"I'm pissed at people taking shortcuts in killing me or trying to kill me in Aces High while I took valuable time learning ACM and all because they were too lazy to beg me to teach them ACM and all and they deserve my public derision because that will make the game better .... for me."
No I'm looking to actually to be outflown....higher level of skill leads to better fights....my favorite and most memorable fights I actually lost.
Example TonyJoey, Bruv119 and I were the only ones who showed up for a KOTH one month....I'm at the bottom of that pecking order without a doubt in skill. But TJ and I got a good 1v1 where it turned into a very tight rolling scissors and I got a few pings on him, missing the opportunity I created put me out of position and he made his shot. Was one of the better fights I've had.
What shida is saying about expecting players like him and I to put in effort to train people ACM....you have to understand I'm self taught, I learned from hours of being beat in 1v1s against players like Grizz, SunsFan, DrSpek, Krupnski,....name a good stick and I've probably had a fair share of 1v1s against them....my year in Korea my mornings on my weekend were spent in the DA. At first I was getting beat down, slowly I started winning more and more fights because I watched films and I tried different tactics. Now you'd be hard pressed to find 10 players who are active who can beat me 1v1...call it cocky, I call it all the best sticks left when the side switch time changed.
If a player doesn't want to be better, we can't force them just like we can't force them not to HO....but best believe I'll call it out every time it happens...but don't think I'm not ready to help someone learn to be better, fact is a lot of players think they are pretty good because they score decently.
Even when they miss a HO shot I'll say something, because it's bad for gameplay.
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IMHO it's really only worth getting salty about if someone blasts you in the face in a duel. I used to get bent out of shape about it but me getting mad has never changed anything.
Horble, I'm not mad...you were on the night I made this post, I won that fight.
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....but best believe I'll call it out every time it happens...
Even when they miss a HO shot I'll say something, because it's bad for gameplay.
Describe how you 'call out' and how what you're doing is 'improving the game.' I've seen venting from many players. Few of them claim they do it for the sake of the game/community and may even apologize in public, later (but then they aren't into attempting to 'shame police' the rest of the community).
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Horble, I'm not mad...you were on the night I made this post, I won that fight.
Not saying you were, it was more of a general statement.
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Describe how you 'call out' and how what you're doing is 'improving the game.' I've seen venting from many players. Few of them claim they do it for the sake of the game/community and may even apologize in public, later (but then they aren't into attempting to 'shame police' the rest of the community).
Virtue signalling. :devil
Ho's are Ok but not recommended.
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Virtue signalling. :devil
Ho's are Ok but not recommended.
Roger that. Got a final to finish up for. :salute :cheers:
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Describe how you 'call out' and how what you're doing is 'improving the game.' I've seen venting from many players. Few of them claim they do it for the sake of the game/community and may even apologize in public, later (but then they aren't into attempting to 'shame police' the rest of the community).
How is saying it's OK to HO good for the game? It's not, I'm an a hole and I'm not being nice when I say your stupid for going for HO....sorry maybe it's the Infantrymen Sergeant in me that's makes me not care about the other guys feelings when I'm correcting him for doing something stupid.
That being said, I'm more then willing to help anyone...I may not be approachable but it's whatever, leave the feelings at the door.
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Not saying you were, it was more of a general statement.
I will actually correct myself, I was a bit upset seeing it was a trainer...not that I actually got HOed because he died but that a trainer saying it or doing it gives it more credibility just because of the tag if anything else.
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How is saying it's OK to HO good for the game? It's not, I'm an a hole and I'm not being nice when I say your stupid for going for HO....sorry maybe it's the Infantrymen Sergeant in me that's makes me not care about the other guys feelings when I'm correcting him for doing something stupid.
That being said, I'm more then willing to help anyone...I may not be approachable but it's whatever, leave the feelings at the door.
Please consider the possibility that your opinion on the HO may not be a universal truth and shaming players who disagree with your opinion is actually worse for the game then letting people play the way they want to.
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How is saying it's OK to HO good for the game? It's not, I'm an a hole and I'm not being nice when I say your stupid for going for HO....sorry maybe it's the Infantrymen Sergeant in me that's makes me not care about the other guys feelings when I'm correcting him for doing something stupid.
That being said, I'm more then willing to help anyone...I may not be approachable but it's whatever, leave the feelings at the door.
'Correcting?' Heh.
If it's not hacking or violating TOS then your need to play shame police and vent like an adolescent online is a lot worse for the game than whatever you're imagining warrants the trigger, Sarge.
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'Correcting?' Heh.
If it's not hacking or violating TOS then your need to play shame police and vent like an adolescent online is a lot worse for the game than whatever you're imagining warrants the trigger, Sarge.
When I first came to AH from AW that was how the HOing and any other dweebishness was handled. You were put upon by the community. Shaming was a great learning tool. Of course in todays "politically correct" world I guess we couldnt possibly use those tired old tactics. :rolleyes:
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When I first came to AH from AW that was how the HOing and any other dweebishness was handled. You were put upon by the community. Shaming was a great learning tool. Of course in todays "politically correct" world I guess we couldnt possibly use those tired old tactics. :rolleyes:
Yes, there's always been an element of 'shame police' around. But don't pretend it was a universal theme practiced by all veterans of the game and it was never an effective 'learning tool.' Plenty of us have been around long enough to know better. :D
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Scraping off the usual steaming pile of unfounded conceit, what you are doing Arlo is proceeding under three limiting misassumptions and hiding behind prejudice.
Firstly:
"I'm pissed at people taking shortcuts in killing me or trying to kill me in Aces High while I took valuable time learning ACM…
They DO NOT kill me with a HO. That is entirely the point which you strangely shrink away from. Never in a merge and in the extremely rare case of any other face-to-face arrangment I have failed to generate enough separation and that is my responsibility (and often times a compliment if you think about it). It is my job to stay out of an opponent's or opponents' gunsight(s) while working them into mine. I have no need to complain, whine or get pissed because I do not suffer losses to this technique, I exploit it and kill those that try it if they do not immediately dive and run to the nearest airbase without even turning. Because I took the trouble to invest in better ACM.
That I know how to do something you do not (or at least did not when you faced Titanic) is a simple statement of fact not arrogance. It does not matter how you present or discuss this when dealing with people who are so entrenched in their self-protecting prejudices that they automatically resort to attempted name-calling, and character assassination (essentially), instead of considering that those saying so might have a point. It's apparently just far more pleasurable and safer to start projecting allegations of elitism, arrogance and condescension.
Secondly, that I need or want players of AH to fly my way or accept my views or preferences.
This is woefully inaccurate. I fly alone, in a middle-spectrum plane and I like it that it's a jungle out there. HO yourself silly if you like. Up over and over and over again playing chicken at a closing velocity twice your own with a similarly front-armed aircraft and have at it. Rinse and repeat for years until disillusionment starts to creep in and decide resolutely in the meantime that anyone who says anything critical is employing ‘shame policing’ or ‘virtue signalling’ or whatever funky new term you can resort to which justifies your ubernoobness, laziness, ignorance or the instant gratification-centric bypassing of an essential point upon which the game is built. Then eventually skulk away to play a point and click game berating the toxic community of AH what done me wrong. Guv'nor.
Thirdly:
Unfortunately, Aces High will need people that will contribute or it will perish.
Your decision, your call.
I do acknowledge that you have posted in wisdom and levelheaded consideration. I would in general agree. However I'm presently more reminded of the anecdote of Benny 'The Jet' Urquidez being once asked how he resolved being a Christian while at the same time beating the living s**t out of all-comers in street fights. He said something like: it has troubled me for a long time. Eventually I decided God had sent them to me to teach them a lesson. I assume he wasn't talking about kickboxing :)
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I'm not sure if the tough love approach is going to work on new customers, regardless whether or not they are the young players that grew up having a "safe space" or crotchety old men who cannot take constructive criticism from anyone.
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(Violation of rule #4 - apologies shida - fight the good fight.)
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dealing with people who are so entrenched in their self-protecting prejudices that they automatically resort to attempted name-calling, and character assassination (essentially), instead of considering that those saying so might have a point.
Irrelevant, impotent, attempted personal attack.
Called it.
You can no more argue points than do ACM. Merry Christmas to you too ubernoob. Don't let Santa out-fly you in his sleigh this year.
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(Violation of rule #4 - apologies shida - fight the good fight.)
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The hallmark of a shida post is quickly hurt feelings and projection.
Don't flatter yourself. I'm passionate about ACM. You can't even raise my pulse.
I'm not attacking ACM. I'm challenging childish methods of attempted arena behavior control as 'good for the community.' I'm not even expecting venting to end. But I'm not going to buy bs that it's for altruistic purpose. Rational heads know there's a better way. :)
Of course you are. You're a paragon of reason and balance aren't you. Rational head Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
You're triggered. Pure and simple. Knowledgeable players highlighting the stupidity of merging nose-on-nose at around 700 m.p.h guns blazing from both sides in similarly armed aircraft and suggesting there are better things to do. It's not even particularly advanced ACM. I wouldn't even call it intermediate. But you and Bustr immediately internalise that as arrogant, deference-seeking, condescension, and I'm the one with the problem? You've clearly never recovered from the rogering Titanic gave you when you last staggered in here claiming you can avoid the HO and got royally Shagged. So don't p!55 on my back and tell me it's raining.
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(Violation of rule #4 - apologies shida - fight the good fight.)
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Give it a rest, shida. Word count on your posts, alone, show you're getting way too riled versus the true merit of this HO shaming argument. Have a toddy. Light a fire in the fireplace. Stop taking yourself so seriously. I doubt many others do. :)
One thing you can always say about Arlo. Got to have the last word. The hallmark of the sore loser :rofl
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(Violation of rule #4 - apologies shida - fight the good fight.)
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This seems to be gravitating toward personal issues, shida
Come off it mate. Is this really the best thing you've got in your toolbox, to go this far with implying histronics. It's pathetic. You've posted as much as I in this thread. You're only trying this because you have not and can not address my points. Now you're trying to invite to get the thread locked and attach the blame to me?
You're un-arrogantly (without the need to try to embarrass anyone to make a point) supporting the position that HOs can/are being effectively discouraged among new players (and old, I suppose) by 'calling them out' on channel 200 in a rather harsh manner and that this is also good for the future of AH and its community. Such behavior will only increase numbers.
I have not done that. Have never done so on 200 nor have ever PMed anyone nor posted film. Have you even read the OP? Or understood it?
Someone please explain how teaching guys to HO is helping them overcome the learning curve in Aces High...
YOU are filling all the rest in about shaming or whatever new trendy Opera Winfrey terminology is in fashion.
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Can you guys at least take it to general discussion? I'm not sure if new players need to see this kind of bickering on the Help and Training forums.
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Can you guys at least take it to general discussion? I'm not sure if new players need to see this kind of bickering on the Help and Training forums.
I believe I have at least tried to keep pushing this topic to the ACM end of the spectrum.
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And you're doing a great job. Please continue. :salute :cheers:
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And you're doing a great job. Please continue. :salute :cheers:
Is this your last word on the topic?
I do think your new signature: 'Never try to embarrass someone, let them do that, them-self' is marvellously ironic, just and appropriate for you all at the same time. Really well done.
I'd advise you to get someone else to proof read your dissertation for you before you submit.
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Personal attacks aren't making your point, sir. I've apologized, edited my posts and even encouraged you to promote the topic in a productive way. Please do. :)
(P.S. It's actually common practice to have other eyes go over a dissertation.)
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(http://i.imgur.com/SayCXU6.jpg)
:neener:
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(http://i.imgur.com/SayCXU6.jpg)
:neener:
For you, Del. ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/vc88ASR.png)
Now back to topic? :)
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Add Lateral Separation
Time a Lead Turn
Drop on 6
Shoot Away
High Yo-Yo if they dive to extend and maintain your E
Attack away from a position of E dominance
There's your ACM for avoiding a HO -- Works almost every time. Takes recognizing the other guy going for the HO and timing your turn. Those will be learned.
You're welcome
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Add Lateral Separation
Time a Lead Turn
Drop on 6
Shoot Away
High Yo-Yo if they dive to extend and maintain your E
Attack away from a position of E dominance
There's your ACM for avoiding a HO -- Works almost every time. Takes recognizing the other guy going for the HO and timing your turn. Those will be learned.
You're welcome
Yup. Recognizing it is pretty easy. All you see as they come in is the dot barely appearing to move, and all you see is spinner. The timing takes practice, but you get plenty of that in the MA most of the time.
Wiley.
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I was flying my D-hog yesterday, from a CV to a base that was pretty quite but had the same 3-4 pilots upping, all obviously pretty green.
One guy kept upping 109's, and on every single merge he would go for the HO. He did this for 3 fights in a row, each fight I could see he was going for the HO, I would fake the return HO and at the last second juke as to make him give up position and allow me to get an instant angles advantage. I shot him down 3 times in a row fairly quickly (one or 2 moves after merge).
Rather than flaming him, I sent him polite PM's over text. I said something along the lines of "when you go for the HO, you are giving up angles right away". He didn't reply, so I figured he was just ignoring me.
The next sortie I see the 109 co alt and go for the merge. Low and behold this 109 flies at me but at about D2.0 start a mellow turn, obviously avoiding the HO, then a split S right before we merge to try to get on my 6. No way can this be the same guy I think, but sure enough after a few more moves I shoot him down and it is the same guy!
I send him another PM saying "see how that fight lasted longer", and offered some advice for him to try to gain an E advantage after the merge by using a climbing move.
Next I see his 109, we merge and he passes close without firing (understands mutual respect on the HO now?), and goes for a gentle immelman (exactly what I had been doing in our past fights). Now on our secondary merge (the first one we've had) we are on another HO at co E, and again he passes and tries to maneuver for angles. Holy crap I think to myself, I have an actual fight! This time our fight lasts a few minutes and goes to the deck, where I finally out turn him. I almost felt like giving him the kill to reward him, but I just couldn't do it so I put him out of his misery with a bunch of .50cals to the cockpit. :devil
Now here in just about 30 minutes this guy went from blindly HOing and then getting killed on every flight, to actually making a good first pass and offering a challenge. He never pm'd me back (maybe he didn't know how), but I could tell just by his flying and progression that he was having more fun. This has been one of my more fun moments in AH in recent memory. This guy went from being the typical HO dweeb that offered little or no challenge, to actually giving me a good fight and making me work hard. This is what AH is all about, progression, learning, and getting better at ACM.
<S> to the other pilot, if you are reading this I'm sure you know who you are. Great fights and keep it up, I can tell you will be an ACE soon! :aok
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After 3+ years, I'm starting to love HO threads. In the history of online sims, to paraphrase a famous quote, sort of... "never have so many, complained so much, about so little."
What people who complain about HO'ing are really saying is... "I had a different outcome in mind, with some dazzling ACM turning and burning on my part, and you following the script I want, to your untimely death. How dare you do anything to disrupt MY gameplay!"
It's very nice if two opponents decide to engage in a merge without resorting to the HO, but to expect it and then complain the other guy is "not honorable", or a "no skill dweeb" (which he may be if he's new) is the height of childishness. If you want fairplay and rules, go to the DA. Otherwise, you're in the best available aerial combat sim possible, which includes your opponent doing anything and everything HE decides he wants to do at the time. Your job is to expect the unexpected at all times, and counter whatever he does to beat him.
And, in certain situations, where least time to a kill may be imperative (especially when outnumbered), the HO may be the best thing going. Learn to know when to expect it, like when your opponent is in a 110, or an IL2, or a Niki, a 109G-14 with 20mm gondys, an 190A-8 with 30 & 20mm's, an F4U-C, etc, etc, etc.
My rule of thumb is, anytime you let your plane get in front of my guns expect to get shot at. I might not, cause HO is 50/50 proposition at best (maybe 55/45 if your in a big gun ride and the other guy isn't) and I prefer the odds to be more like 95/5 in my favor if I can work them that way. But sometimes I don't have the time, and sometimes the inclination, to work that hard. I ain't telling you when I will, or when I won't, so be prepared.
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There have been a few HO threads lately in which I stated that I"ll always take the HO and that my success rate at it was high. Since then I've been more aware of it again while flying and my statement should have been; I'll often take the HO and when I do my success rate is high.
Whats the difference? There's a lot of times I wont take the shot. Like I said, I've been aware of my tendancies the past few days and been thinking about past engagements and here's a few things I've realized:
If I'm flying a plane I've never or rarely flown before that has cannons my likelyhood to take the HO is at its highest. I think this is because I want to get a kill and will do it however I can until I figure out what the plane is actually capable of. I'm sure that noobs take HOs for the same reason and I can't blame them. As my familiarity with that particular ac develops, my tendancy to take the HO goes down.
In a non-cannon equipped plane I will rarely if ever take a HO shot. Machine guns just don't cut it for the most part playing the HO game.
Similarily, if I'm in a lighly cannon equipped plane against a heavily cannon equipped plane I probably won't take a HO shot. No matter what I'm in I'll rarely put myself in front of a FW190-A8 or IL2 for instance, but rather try to work my way behind them or simply leave to find a different fight. My decision would be reversed if the ac were reveresed.
In a true B'n'Z plane the likelyhood of taking the HO increases as I'm only "in" as I pass through, and, if this is the only shot presented the likelyhood of me taking it is high. This brings up the HO and run whine but in my estimation, I'm only playing to the strengths of my ac. Also, the likelyhood of actually putting yourself behind the 9/3 line of, for instance, a turnfighter in a true B'n'Zer if the turnfighter knows your there is almost 0 so the HO or high deflection becomes one of the only ways you'll get the kill.
These are just a few scenarios that I've become more aware of. I'm sure there are others. Like any other tactic, it's a split second judgement call and one of many that I make almost instinctively as I approach an enemy ac.
As I've pointed out, getting behind your opponent is sometimes impossible given plane match-ups. Staying in to fight after the HO pass would sometimes be foolish.
I suspect those who say they never HO or who bring up these other arguments fly only one plane, fight in only one style or rarely face dissimilar ac match-ups.
For me it's just another available option, and sometimes the best option, as I quickly assess the situation. And my success rate is high primarily because I use it when it's advantageous and don't when it's not and I'd expect most "vets" would do the same.
Hopefully this will be my last post on this topic.
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THE CREATURE WE LOVE TO HATE - THE HO!
HO's
- are very misunderstood, and actually fairplay and occaisonally even useful, particularly when defensive in a many vs. one engagement. There are no rules anyway that say you can't or even shouldn't HO. Anyone who says it's dishonorable is full of whooie! However, it does NOT gain you any respect when used, nor is it a sign of admirable dogfighting skills.
HO's
- whether they are true HO's, or just appear that way to the other pilot due to lag and inability to see the very small angle that makes it a deflection shot and not an HO, are going to be complained about by those other pilots who are gonna scream when they die. Ignore it.
HO's
- actually are a 50/50 proposition of either pilot getting a kill, or being killed. They are the fairest, most equal engagement you can be given by the other pilot, and therefore, the worst one to stay in and try to win.
HO's
- if done repeatedly or almost exclusively by a particular pilot, are a sure sign of a bad OR lazy pilot (essentially the same thing) who's gameID should be "Target#325". More often than not, this is a 1-3 month newb who can't do anything else, or a semi-vet (3-6 months) who doesn't really care to learn ACM and is just whacking his plane up there for the fun of it.
HO's
- can, with roughly +95% probability, be avoid no matter how hard the other pilot wants to face blast you, if you know how.
HO's
- by other pilots then become a good thing for you, a happy thing that you want to see occur as often as possible, as you can now kill them 95% of the time (instead of 50/50) and you die less in the doing.
HO's
- can be avoided very easily with a little knowledge and practice. Once knowing thoroughly how and why to avoid the HO AND get the kill, to die thereafter as a result of an HO means you were mentally on autopilot.
HO's
- are used by me anytime I want to or feel I need to, without regard to my opponent's race, creed, color, religious or lifestyle preference, or the whine he serves with his death as he floats to the ground. However, since learning how to avoid them and still whack the daylights out of the other guy (spoiling his kill is a bonus to killing him masterfully with ACM), I rarily go for the HO anymore. Defensively yes, offensively no.
I will gladly assist anyone who wishes to learn how to avoid the HO monkey, fake the other guy out, turn round on is 6, and shoot his butt down.
This is my mission in life. To open the -
Sloehand Remedial Flight School For Reformed HO Monkeys :cool:
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I've found that if you find yourself getting face-shot you really just need to re-adjust your merge a bit.
Don't merge so close to him that he can get an easy shot on you. Come in a little to one side, or as I prefer, from a little lower. I ASSUME that in every merge I will find my opponent trying to HO me. NEVER assume that they won't. There are a bunch of sticks in the game that will pass on the HO shot and "fight like a gentleman". When you find one of those consider yourself lucky, but don't ever assume that the unknown icon is one.
If you merge too far away from your opponent you do open up another bag of pain too, so don't get too extreme. Just far enough away so he has to dive or turn to get his shot.
That said, I LOVE it when my opponent tries for the face-shot. It generally means that if I merge looking for an angle's advantage I will have a HUGE head start due to him wasting effort for the face shot. From what I've seen, the HO bandit will die within 3-5 seconds after his face-shot attempt unless he simply blows through and runs away.
I prefer to merge from under my opponent, a little nose-up, and forcing him to push his stick forward to get a face-shot on me. He'll red out or lose me under his nose. I seldom get hit this way (once or twice a month or so...). I'll dive before the merge so I have some speed to maneuver.
If he actually hits me on the merge, it's simply because I screwed up...
If you merge like this and the guy DOESN'T push down for a shot- STOP! Go to plan "B"!!! Especially if he goes nose-up. He knows how to fly and needs a little more "attention". Beware the "rope" here.
I spend almost all my energy maneuvering for a non-HO shot, regardless of whether it is the 1st, 2nd, or 40th merge. There are some HO shots I WILL take though.
If I take someone up on a rope (the "loop" you mentioned concerning the 38)(not a loop, BTW), and have misjudged my opponents E state, leaving him still nose-up, I will sometimes shoot him anyway. Especially if I've roped 2 or 3 planes up, and don't want to waste time setting him up again. Sometimes I dive on a rope victim that is nose-down, only to find he is actually nose-up. OOPS! I might shoot then too. 1v1 in this situation I will 9 times outta 10 not shoot, but instead adjust so he can't shoot me and try again.
2v1, 3v1, 5v1- I'm gonna shoot anyone dumb enough to get in front of me, and fast. I don't care which way he's pointed. HO shots aren't gentlemanly- well neither is gangin'!! If they want to gang you, they deserve what they get. 2v1 I still avoid the HO, until times get desperate. Mainly because the risk of me taking damage is too high. Even in a 4 or 5v1 I'm going to avoid them, simply because I do actually plan on winning and don't want to be damaged. I don't try for the HO, but will take it if offered...
I will also take front-quarter shots, depending on the situation. I fly only F4U's, often against better turning planes. I can't stay in a turn-fight too long, and am often presented with shots straight into the cockpit, etc. Not HO, but they could be pulling toward me, which makes them likely to be "called" HO. More of an SA issue, really, on the part of the opponent.
MtnMan
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Add Lateral Separation
Time a Lead Turn
Drop on 6
Shoot Away
High Yo-Yo if they dive to extend and maintain your E
Attack away from a position of E dominance
There's your ACM for avoiding a HO -- Works almost every time. Takes recognizing the other guy going for the HO and timing your turn. Those will be learned.
You're welcome
Yes and most of us "old timers" do just that. The point is that a "trainer" was telling a new player to HO. It is a bad way to teach any one to fight. Learning bad habits from the start isnt going to help improve your fighting down the road.
It is far better to teach the list you provided and encourage new players to take their licks and stick with it. As nrshida said putting yourself in front of anyone guns is a poor way to start a fight, but a great to end one.
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Word has it that NrShida has been offered a trainer's slot.
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Very likely a lot of the HO complaints are from ex-aw folks. In AW the hit probability for a head-on was turned way down, very intentionally, to avoid Joust Warrior and to encourage ACM. It was still possible to get a HO, but it was really gaming the game because you were banking on pure luck. So: HO people were, in a Shane-ism, lamer tard slobberdonkey dweebs, and we still tend to think that thought when we see a HO, even though AH is very different. What to say, old prejudices die hard.
- oldman
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Last night was the first time I got some quality airtime after my pledge to HO like a PRO.
Mt first attempt at HO'ing was against a B-26, expertly flown and gunned by shotter. I perched myself onto his 11:00 co-alt, about D1.6 in front of him. Swinging my Typhoon into a right-handed bank, I came up into a fast HO about 500yds in front. I missed with my first pass, and when I repeated, he shot me down! <S> Shotter!
Finally, after running into three P-51's of the 13th TAS, I was able, after a fun turnfight(I was in my trusty SpitIX on this sortie), to get into a perfect HO situation with Beemer. True to my pledge, I sprayed faster and with more accuracy than Ron Jeremy on viagra.
I was rewarded by watching Beemer's wing fall off as he went streaking by. I savored the moment, revelling in my new found skill. I sat back in my seat, and smiled a smug, "Stiglr-esque" smile...until my wingless Spitfire plowed into the ground.
Beemer had scored hits as well, you see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Alas, running into three more 13th TAS Mustangs later that night, I was promptly handed my butt before I could manuever into an advantageous HO position.
I will continue to hone my HO skills, and maybe even post a film or two.
------------------
P/O banana
XO 308(Polish) Sqn "City of Cracow" RAF
"Look at me when I HO you!"
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 08-11-2000).]
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Protocol dictates that if another plane points his nose at you, you must disengage. ;)
My favorite whine of all time was the spit that did a high G immelman as I was bouncing from high and behind... I killed him before he could get his guns around on me. Oh the names I was called.
One of my personal favorites 'beliefs' is the "guns cold" expectation some pilots have on a merge. Its ok to fly really close, but its not fair to shoot. LOL! that one gets me too. :D
AKDejaVu
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Torgo,
No, it's far from new.
If you do a search you'll find threads from the first days of beta on the HO topic.
There were the "men of honor" who would never EVER shoot while going nose to nose.
They generally labeled anyone who took any shot from anywhere in the front hemisphere as "no talent, no acm, no honor dweebs" as well as any other disparaging label they could think of at the time.
The threads are probably still there. Try searching for HO or H/O or Headon and then pick the oldest threads that show up.
I guess they never figured out that proper use of the stick and rudder allows evasion 95% of all true HO's.
Also, lots of them never figured out that the HO they saw on their FE was a fat, juicy, perfectly safe front quarter shot on the other guys FE due to net lag or view differences.
Those old threads can be entertaining reading. :)
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Yes and most of us "old timers" do just that. The point is that a "trainer" was telling a new player to HO. It is a bad way to teach any one to fight. Learning bad habits from the start isnt going to help improve your fighting down the road.
It is far better to teach the list you provided and encourage new players to take their licks and stick with it. As nrshida said putting yourself in front of anyone guns is a poor way to start a fight, but a great to end one.
Scare quotes on trainer? You have an issue with his qualifications?
If a player requests help with front aspect shots should the trainer refuse to help?
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Scare quotes on trainer? You have an issue with his qualifications?
If a player requests help with front aspect shots should the trainer refuse to help?
I used quotes because Im not sure if he still is a trainer.
If a player asks for help in "front aspect shots" the trainer should be pointing out how and why he screwed up to get into that position and suggest ways to avoid getting into, and out of that position, not give the advice "go for the HO".
If you are in a poor position why waste the time and energy "going for the HO" when that time and energy could be better used to get yourself OUT of trouble.
The only time a player should think about going for the HO, is when they are in the tower after being shot down and thinking..... "damn! I should have tried a HO!" :D
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If a player requests help with front aspect shots should the trainer refuse to help?
I suggest "yes" for the answer. If a player requests help for presenting the best possible target to his opponent, should the trainer assist?
If a squad asks a trainer for assistance in ganging a solo enemy, should the trainer refuse to help?
I've never been a trainer, so I don't know if there are any trainer guidelines. Should a trainer help a player remain less competent? Should a trainer encourage poor sportsmanship? I really don't know.
Kind of interested to hear if there are such guidelines, actually.
- oldman
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Junky said he's talking about Rodent57,who's currently the head trainer and an actual fighter pilot with 35 years experience training real fighter pilots. I expect he understands the pro's and cons of head on shots sufficiently to train virtual pilots playing a game.
When you look at the result of no-ho merges the newbie loses every time. The only shot he has a chance of connecting is the head on shot at the merge. When the slightly skilled player whines about getting shot head on by a newbie and claims he's only interested in helping the newbie I tend to doubt their motivation.
When you are in a poor position, shooting the bandit down is the best way to get out of trouble.
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I suggest "yes" for the answer. If a player requests help for presenting the best possible target to his opponent, should the trainer assist?
If a squad asks a trainer for assistance in ganging a solo enemy, should the trainer refuse to help?
I've never been a trainer, so I don't know if there are any trainer guidelines. Should a trainer help a player remain less competent? Should a trainer encourage poor sportsmanship? I really don't know.
Kind of interested to hear if there are such guidelines, actually.
- oldman
If a player asks loaded questions should the trainer respond politely or just ignore him?
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If a player asks loaded questions should the trainer respond politely or just ignore him?
Heh. Seems to me the reverse is also true; that is, if a trainer asks a loaded rhetorical question...
One way or the other, I imagine that someone confident of his position might answer the question, loaded or not.
- oldman
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The guideline, so to speak, is to help the player with their request.
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When you look at the result of no-ho merges the newbie loses every time.
That's because he's new not because he hasn't mastered the art of the HO yet. Where exactly is it specified that a new player has any right or necessity to expect more immediate success against players who are more advanced in applying the tenets of a complex topic?
When the slightly skilled player whines about getting shot head on by a newbie and claims he's only interested in helping the newbie I tend to doubt their motivation.
And you are right to do so. Only what you describe is an edge case not the mainstream situation and not the case here.
I expect he understands the pro's and cons of head on shots sufficiently to train virtual pilots playing a game.
Naturally I'm going to regret this as the usual troll-monkeys are already no doubt scampering around their opera box girding their loins like Waldorf and Statler for another bloody good session of peanut throwing. But I feel obliged to point out the subtle but significant difference between real air combat, and Aces High. I've naturally not been to Top Gun being as I am merely a hobbyist dogfighter but I'm pretty sure their syllabus was focused on making the enemy go away forever rather bloody quickly. Whereas in Aces High we'd ideally like them to stick around for several years and join our insane celebration of rickety old prop-driven combat aircraft and what our simulations of those can do in an evolutionary dead end branch of air combat while an arbitrary pointless simulated war rages beneath (or indeed in another virtual arena): for entertainment.
The guideline, so to speak, is to help the player with their request.
Just try at least for 13 nanoseconds to consider the following as it is intended and not as the personal attack I am so often / easily accused of:-
If the AH trainers are overly reactive to the whims of trending culture then any active living ACM in this game may dilute away until only a small handful of diehards remain until even they grow tired of easy kills and / or otherwise retire. I have already observed it to some extent in my short time here as the values changed. Is it not more sensible for both new players and the long term health of the game as a whole to actually promote advancing ACM as the way forward? If you guys aren't going to take this initiative - with your combined knowledge, expertise and position of 'authority' - then who is?
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Just try at least for 13 nanoseconds to consider the following as it is intended and not as the personal attack I am so often / easily accused of:-
On-topic discussion is less likely to be taken as a personal attack (even if it is overly-dramatic about the subject) than, say, deciding to include what someone does, apart from the game, in a diatribe specifically aimed at that person. Just sayin'*.
:) :cheers:
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On-topic discussion is less likely to be taken as a personal attack
The hallmark of a shida post is quickly hurt feelings and projection.
This seems to be gravitating toward personal issues, shida
Word has it that NrShida has been offered a trainer's slot.
overly-dramatic about the subject
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I deleted and apologized for the first one. I even deleted the second, though it was merely an honest observation about you treading toward personal attack ground that could result in thread deletion, if kept up. You were indeed offered a trainer's slot which you should take as an honor (and should consider accepting, given your passion for ACM). The last comment was just about your delivery on the topic at hand. You seem unapologetic on your comments and I didn't really expect one from you. Please continue on the subject of how trainers should train.
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When you refrain from the behaviour you condone others for, then you are in a position to lecture.
You were indeed offered a trainer's slot
I was not nor would I be suitable for that roll. Too fond of fuedin' and fussy about who I work with.
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When you refrain from the behaviour you condone others for, then you are in a position to lecture.
Methinks you meant to type 'chastise.' And I've apologized then refrained in this very thread.
Having said that, if you admit you're not suitable to be a trainer, yourself, how does that justify your chastisement of Rodent57 (or any other trainer)? The time of these individuals is no more precious than yours or Junky's or anyone's.
I was not nor would I be suitable for that roll. Too fond of fuedin' and fussy about who I work with.
My apologies for misunderstanding ....
You're suggesting people like Junky and I, say, should just hand over knowledge and technique it took hundreds of deaths and countless hours of reading, experimentation and practice to acquire to those who show absolutely no active interest in learning or working, while simultaneously being insulted and disrespected by those with no willingness or clue how to do said work themselves and who are at the same time so vitriolically bitter towards those that have, that the only conclusion can be people like Junky and I are only contributing to the discussion (about ACM, I'll remind you) in order that we can have you all worship us as some fictional movie characters from a space opera or Kung Fu movie.
Might I respectfully suggest, however, that faith without action is useless or rather if you're not willing to productively chase your goal then complaining about the situation at hand (on the forums) becomes nothing more than an act of utmost futility.
Still, my best to you and may you find contentment.
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I avoid them for one reason only: it usually damages my plane. My biggest joy is FSO and scenarios-a place where killing the other guy and living is rewarded. So I try use the MA as a gym of sorts to stay trained up with those ends in mind. Head on shots are a very poor decision if you want to get your plane home. In FSO/Scenarios often times you and your squad mates are 3,4 even 5 sectors deep in enemy territory and nursing a damaged bird back home may be impossible. This also adds a burden to the entire squad having to watch out for you because you made a poor decision. I do not see Head-On passes as a choice between good or bad ACM, I see them as a low probability of you flying your plane away with kill and a working airplane.
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Having said that, if you admit you're not suitable to be a trainer, yourself, how does that justify your chastisement of Rodent57
I have not chastised Rodent. It is really unnecessary to keep reviewing what's already been discussed. The order, motivations and tactics of the relative contributors are apparent to anyone who can look objectively.
Tactically I feel you are not trying to now engage in a reasonable discussion. I believe you are merely regrouping for a refreshed 'boil the frog' and informal fallacy-based approach. Why don't you drop by the MPA sometime instead and we'll interact on my terms and see who is correct in the grand and ongoing Air Quake vs ACM debate.
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I avoid them for one reason only: it usually damages my plane. My biggest joy is FSO and scenarios-a place where killing the other guy and living is rewarded. So I try use the MA as a gym of sorts to stay trained up with those ends in mind. Head on shots are a very poor decision if you want to get your plane home. In FSO/Scenarios often times you and your squad mates are 3,4 even 5 sectors deep in enemy territory and nursing a damaged bird back home may be impossible. This also adds a burden to the entire squad having to watch out for you because you made a poor decision. I do not see Head-On passes as a choice between good or bad ACM, I see them as a low probability of you flying your plane away with kill and a working airplane.
^^^This^^^
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Really when you think about it.. the HO shot typically will put an end to a possible white knuckle scenario dogfight.. the kind that got me hooked on this game.
I guess if points are your thing.. HO HO HO away! But your missing the fun, and the ability to learn from a well fought fight.
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I guess if points are your thing.. HO HO HO away!
Care to explain this? :headscratch:
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Care to explain this? :headscratch:
What most of them usually mean when they say that is, "If all you care about is the kill."
I always thought that was kind of the point of most fighter sorties... to kill the red guys.
Wiley.
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Care to explain this? :headscratch:
A lazy way of getting hit points/ occasional kill from a headon shot.
Kind of why I dont play rocket launchers only in FPS games throughout my gaming time. More of a pistol and knife guy.
Point/kills could be awarded after a good dogfight. The alternative would be experience and maybe some knowledge gained after losing the fight.
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I have not chastised Rodent. It is really unnecessary to keep reviewing what's already been discussed. The order, motivations and tactics of the relative contributors are apparent to anyone who can look objectively.
Tactically I feel you are not trying to now engage in a reasonable discussion. I believe you are merely regrouping for a refreshed 'boil the frog' and informal fallacy-based approach. Why don't you drop by the MPA sometime instead and we'll interact on my terms and see who is correct in the grand and ongoing Air Quake vs ACM debate.
You mean your argument (and character assessment of me) has boiled down to a duel challenge no matter what I say, at this point? How quaint. Does this mean you're through trying to make a point or address the subject here? I hope not. Hope to see you in the 'MPA' (the MA?) this week. I'll be on hiatus for an unknown period of time after that. :)
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Arlo & Nrshida. Can I ask you gentlemen a personal favor please?
Just knock it off. If you must continue, please take it private.
I would really appreciate it.
Thank you my friends.
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Anytime, Zoney. :salute :cheers:
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A lazy way of getting hit points/ occasional kill from a headon shot.ht.
I'd say the opposite: If someone cared about his points, he would try to avoid the HO as much as possible. For when you die, your points are reduced (in case of score points they are quartered), your k/d goes down; your k/h and your k/s in particular go down because you have to start another sortie...
When I take the HO, It's usually because of these reasons: Either I don't see any other way to get out there alive; beign an opportunity that just happens to rpesent itself in a frantic battle (if you suddenly cross my gunsight I will fire, no matter how it might look on your end). Or, and that may sound strange to some, because I simply freeze up - As I'm getting older this starts to happen more often than I'd like to admit...
In the end, it's the MA and I'm not here for duels. I want to eleminate you without getting sent to tower myself. That's why I try to avoid getting into your sights in the first place.
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I firmly believe the mere act of dodging the HO then killing that pilot, afterwards (if he isn't in a faster plane and runs away), will convince any player that relies heavily on that tactic, yet is interested in staying in the game, to learn how to do more than just that. It doesn't matter who asks a trainer about how to HO, when to HO or even if to HO or if the trainer provides the answers. They'll ask better questions and get better advice as time goes by.
I also believe that many a seasoned veteran will take the HO shot from time to time (as evidenced in anecdotes in this very thread). I prefer the dodge (in spite of Titanic's on the deck Me-110 ho-down exhibition that night ;) ).
As to the side issue of channel 200 'call outs', most of us know that they don't serve the purpose of 'making the game better' .... but we also know its human nature in practically all online games of combat and/or competition for players to vent in moments of weakness. I don't expect it to ever end but its not an example of virtue.
I've had more than a dozen HO passes made on me in the last 24 hours in the MA. I received a pilot wound from one and was forced to ditch. I don't generally take to ch 200 (I even detune it) because I really can't play typer-High and fly (which is why I seldom .... ok,never .... return salutes, as well). If my opponent can't feel me smiling then I suppose that's not a feature of the game.
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I firmly believe the mere act of dodging the HO then killing that pilot, afterwards (if he isn't in a faster plane and runs away), will convince any player that relies heavily on that tactic, yet is interested in staying in the game, to learn how to do more than just that. It doesn't matter who asks a trainer about how to HO, when to HO or even if to HO or if the trainer provides the answers. They'll ask better questions and get better advice as time goes by.
I also believe that many a seasoned veteran will take the HO shot from time to time (as evidenced in anecdotes in this very thread). I prefer the dodge (in spite of Titanic's on the deck Me-110 ho-down exhibition that night ;) ).
As to the side issue of channel 200 'call outs', most of us know that they don't serve the purpose of 'making the game better' .... but we also know its human nature in practically all online games of combat and/or competition for players to vent in moments of weakness. I don't expect it to ever end but its not an example of virtue.
I've had more than a dozen HO passes made on me in the last 24 hours in the MA. I received a pilot wound from one and was forced to ditch. I don't generally take to ch 200 (I even detune it) because I really can't play typer-High and fly (which is why I seldom .... ok,never .... return salutes, as well). If my opponent can't feel me smiling then I suppose that's not a feature of the game.
But I think that is the point of this thread, the only answer a trainer should give about a HO is how to avoid it and use it to your advantage. It should NEVER be "go for the HO"
As for the "calling out on 200", I have done that many times, well pretty much every time all a guy does is try for the HO <------ notice I said TRY, I dont give them the chance often. I KNOW it helps. I have had guys try to HO me in a fight and after I call them out on it they work at it without the HO attempts and the fights are always more fun.
Not everybody listens and I think it is because they cant be bothered to learn ACMs. I dont think they realize how much fun this game really is when you challenge yourself to fight be it in a fighter, bomber or vehicle.
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But I think that is the point of this thread, the only answer a trainer should give about a HO is how to avoid it and use it to your advantage. It should NEVER be "go for the HO"
I believe this to be fundamentally wrong.
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I believe this to be fundamentally wrong.
I believe the point of this thread is fundamentally wrong, as well.
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Seeing as how you are the filler in most fundamentally wrong threads, you must be grateful. Just need to post a unfunny gif to cap it off.
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Seeing as how you are the filler in most fundamentally wrong threads, you must be grateful. Just need to post a unfunny gif to cap it off.
There was no intention of stepping on your toe .... or feeler, TB. ;)
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More sporting to shoot them in the back. :D
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Rodent was more then willing to use a comment like "oh wow that's the first time I've seen you use your flaps ever Junky" that same night so Arlo...quit defending his honor because he was obviously more then ready to fuss that night.
Let me clear up another thing....I'm mad about dieing to HOs?!?!?!...when the situation which this post was made I won a 3 v 1 where I was HOed....the missed attempt gave me time to get energy....so FLS...your peer might need a refresher on what he can do in situations because obviously going for HO isn't the right answer.
A new player taking a HO vs a new player who learns the merge....yea the HO might lead to immediate success...but his growth will be stunted at a certain level because 1. They aren't doing the right thing and 2. They are shortening their "play time" because they keep getting damaged in HOs.
Defending the HO....straight up disgusts me.
Shida, glad your better then me at explaining stuff :aok :salute
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oh look someone not playing by junkys rules time for him to start bashing :rolleyes:
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I'm wondering who's 'defending HOs.' Pretty sure people are saying HOs aren't worth the threads they seem to start. :)
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I'm wondering who's 'defending HOs.' Pretty sure people are saying HOs aren't worth the threads they seem to start. :)
What would of have been cool was manned guns and a VH at the HQ....... would have brought some very cool GV battles........but this game is anti GV so it didn't happen
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I believe the point of this thread is fundamentally wrong, as well.
And that's all you have: unsubstantiated belief. You (still) haven't fully understood the point of this thread (perhaps because your ACM isn't even developed enough to identify), nor addressed a single reasoned argument with an equivalently reasoned argued point. Just launched a sequence of personal attacks, trolling, lying and posting reactive comments, withdrawing and reasserting, feigning you're simply looking for a reasonable conversation while casting bait after bait so you can establish your favoured pattern of bickering like a schoolyard shouting match until everybody else is forced to disengage or end up looking exactly like you. Then when you're last man standing you round it off with your Dr Phil closing comments implying you've been on topic the whole time, and only concerned for the community and have of course won the argument while smirking proudly and intolerably.
A completely disingenuous approach and ultimately a false positive reinforcement which ensures you'll be here again in the next thread which triggers you doing the same. And of course, discouraging anyone disagreeing with you to be. If you could become slightly more self-aware of your prejudices and put 1/10th of this energy into getting help with your flying, you wouldn't get triggered and be able to recognise the subtlety of what's been said here.
I firmly believe the mere act of dodging the HO then killing that pilot, afterwards (if he isn't in a faster plane and runs away), will convince any player that relies heavily on that tactic, yet is interested in staying in the game, to learn how to do more than just that.
Just before you pop off again, Trigger, I'm not addressing you specifically with the below, although I'm sure you'll yummy it up as more material for trolling. This is for anyone else who reads this point.
This is about the lake. Many years ago posted by a (now defunct) squad of new players:
"Only one pilot I have ever witnessed never “ho’s”. And I mean never. I have heard several opponents speak ---------- of NrShida who usually flies the Ki-84 with the Knights, because he never “ho’s”, not even when he is “ho’ed”. He was a former member of ------, and for some reason, ------, flies solo. He is the Zen master in the DA, the “Silver Surfer”, and a total class act in DA. ------ But if do, give the Ki-84 the benefit of the doubt because if you don’t ho your engagement may last 1-2 minutes, if you are lucky, but if you do “ho” shorten that time of your life expectancy by 1 min 45 seconds from that 2 minutes. ----- He won’t taunt or criticize you, he’s too ------- to do that. He will simply kill you, quickly".
This was from 2010. So much for shame policing and virtue signalling of which I've been idly accused several times during this thread.
I will consider answering anyone who makes a reasoned point about the topic but frankly Arlo will do his best to put a stop to that. Plus I'm pretty bored by this point and have new ACM to practice for my next Blade fights :)
I will close this therefore with a limited Christmas offer: if anyone is really struggling dealing with getting HOed (besides Arlo whom I enjoy hearing is still struggling with it), PM me for a private session in the new year where I'll teach you to never get hit and always separate from that first merge with both an angular and energetic advantage.
And a very Merry Christmas to all aspirant or practicing ACM-heads out there. :cheers:
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Merry Christmas to you, too. :)
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Newb..... Veteran players do It about as much. I think much is about tunnel vision. But I prefer to CounterHO. You can push the stick forward at about 1.5 go under e/a. and then use increased energy to maneuver . Or if wing guns, come in slightly off line, use past convergence angle of bullets to to HOse down E/A. This works well in a plane with a big rudder.
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I will use the HO on a plane with a much better turn rate. If I head towards a Zeke (or a brewster) and he sees me, he will turn towards me. The ho will be the only shot I get, because I can't turn with those planes. I will often shoot early so he breaks offline and then I have chance at an angle if my ACM is perfect. I will always HO a Zeke Brewster, or Hurricane. Guys who show up to a fight in these planes are always complaining about getting HO-ed, but not doing so gives them all the advantage. :salute
Now imagine you're a noob in an mustang and you come up against an F4U. Your ACM isn't good yet. Getting an enemy to break early is an advantage. It's a good tactic for noobs. I cut them slack because they usually shoot too early and aren't good shots and I can avoid serous damage from the HO and stay in the fight. If they are truly noobs, I usually win.
The HOs I complain about aren't the noobs, it's the vets with tracers off. They take advantage of the "etiquette" some players will fly by, holding fire (making you think they want a merge and dog fight) then fire at the last second and you can't react because their tracers are off. I learned to just accept it because the "ettiquette" merge in the MA is mostly a dead concept. :salute
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All depends on the situation...
A plane defending against a field take attempt will HO every time. Chances are they get the cover plane, and if they go down, can usually get back in the air and strafe the MR before troops can take it.
Any experienced player will assume that the opposing plane WILL pull the trigger in a HO and attempt to take counter measures against it.
:joystick:
When I merge with another opponent and we are going head to head, if they don't pull the trigger either, I gulp and know a really good fight is about to happen. I typically won't pull the trigger in a HO on the first or second pass. if it is a long BnZ style fight I will continue to attempt to maneuver. But, if it turns into an intense turn fight, I am pulling the trigger every chance I get a part of the enemy plane in my pipper. Mainly because at some point, a friendly will swoop in and clear your 12 or another enemy plane or two will start diving in to get a quick and easy kill.
:airplane:
Simply put, it is part of the game whether we like it or not. It took me years to learn what a HO was and what a deflection shot was. In the beginning, and yes, it can take years to understand this, all you are trying to do is get into the action, put the red in front of you and squeeze the trigger hoping you can get a kill.
:bhead
I usually don't ever get bothered by HOs any longer. I expect it is going to happen on every merge. I whine in silence when I get picked by relatively great players that hover fights only to swoop in and pick then fly off without actually engaging. Hit and fly away. Rinse and repeat. Seems boring to me.
:old:
But hey. We each pay our account. Each will play the game the way they wish. In the end, all we can do is log in and enjoy the game and play your game the way you like to play it. Each player eventually evolves. As a community, the experienced players should help teach the newer players and knock off the whines and constant calling out players on 200 for taking a shot.
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I will use the HO on a plane with a much better turn rate. If I head towards a Zeke (or a brewster) and he sees me, he will turn towards me. The ho will be the only shot I get, because I can't turn with those planes. I will often shoot early so he breaks offline and then I have chance at an angle if my ACM is perfect. I will always HO a Zeke Brewster, or Hurricane. Guys who show up to a fight in these planes are always complaining about getting HO-ed, but not doing so gives them all the advantage. :salute
Now imagine you're a noob in an mustang and you come up against an F4U. Your ACM isn't good yet. Getting an enemy to break early is an advantage. It's a good tactic for noobs. I cut them slack because they usually shoot too early and aren't good shots and I can avoid serous damage from the HO and stay in the fight. If they are truly noobs, I usually win.
The HOs I complain about aren't the noobs, it's the vets with tracers off. They take advantage of the "etiquette" some players will fly by, holding fire (making you think they want a merge and dog fight) then fire at the last second and you can't react because their tracers are off. I learned to just accept it because the "ettiquette" merge in the MA is mostly a dead concept. :salute
:aok
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I'm wondering who's 'defending HOs.' Pretty sure people are saying HOs aren't worth the threads they seem to start. :)
A trainer was on 200....you missing the reason I started the thread???
And if the thread doesn't matter to you why post and make it have 11 pages??? Because you're not a troll right??? :rolleyes:
oh look someone not playing by junkys rules time for him to start bashing :rolleyes:
I will bash you in your favorite ride anytime you want Biggamer....but that isn't the point and you didn't read enough of the thread to even have a valid comment to say so you aren't worth anymore time...oh and just to make it clear...I'll bash you in your favorite ride whenever you want.
I will use the HO on a plane with a much better turn rate. If I head towards a Zeke (or a brewster) and he sees me, he will turn towards me. The ho will be the only shot I get, because I can't turn with those planes. I will often shoot early so he breaks offline and then I have chance at an angle if my ACM is perfect. I will always HO a Zeke Brewster, or Hurricane. Guys who show up to a fight in these planes are always complaining about getting HO-ed, but not doing so gives them all the advantage. :salute
Now imagine you're a noob in an mustang and you come up against an F4U. Your ACM isn't good yet. Getting an enemy to break early is an advantage. It's a good tactic for noobs. I cut them slack because they usually shoot too early and aren't good shots and I can avoid serous damage from the HO and stay in the fight. If they are truly noobs, I usually win.
The HOs I complain about aren't the noobs, it's the vets with tracers off. They take advantage of the "etiquette" some players will fly by, holding fire (making you think they want a merge and dog fight) then fire at the last second and you can't react because their tracers are off. I learned to just accept it because the "ettiquette" merge in the MA is mostly a dead concept. :salute
We all know who those nerds are but like I said about newbs you are just stunting their growth telling newbs to HO or even saying it's OK.
P51 vs F4U....Id rather see a noon extend away in a zoom climb then see them take a HO shot.
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The quotes I posted covered a lot of [apparently increasing] territory on this subject over the years. I did my best to pick reputable and memorable players so you wouldn't think it was just me. There was even some that I thought you'd appreciate.
Oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood. Merry Christmas to you, too, Junky. :)
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The quotes I posted covered a lot of [apparently increasing] territory on this subject over the years. I did my best to pick reputable and memorable players so you wouldn't think it was just me. There was even some that I thought you'd appreciate.
Oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood. Merry Christmas to you, too, Junky. :)
Like I already said if you think it doesn't need to be discussed again why post more then once....oh wait, because you're just a troll....all you are but you kiss enough bellybutton that you got buddies, good for you man, doesn't mean you aren't full of crap
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The better question would be how often did pilots deliberately go into any engagement with a HO shot.
Most kills were by guys the dead plane never saw.
I understand that cannon birds in particular in AH are going to HO on every pass. I expect it.
Because there is no risk, since no one dies, it doesn't take any particular skill or 'courage' to do so in the game cause the worst that can happen is you lose your cartoon plane and get another. Because of that, comparing a WW2 pilot's actions to here doesn't work. They risked the HO and if they blew it they died for real.
As long as it works, the HO shots are going to continue to be taken by just about everyone because it's quicker, takes less effort and will get you your 'attaboys' faster.
Fought a guy tonite in my 38G. He was in a Yak 9T. We headed towards each other co-alt and he started firing 1.5K out. I slid off to the left, went vertical and he lost sight of me apparently as I killed him from a dead six shot before he'd completed half a turn. This happened again with the same guy. When the HO missed, it was like he had no clue what to do.
I tried to talk to him on private and see if he'd talk about what happened, but got no response. I assume he was new.
At the same time another guy is spouting on 200 that he'd been HO'd by a P51B and he was going to HO everyone from now on.
I thought P51B? 4 50s and you are mad at him for losing a wing going nose to nose with a B pony?
Final fight of the night was with a D9. He too did the 1.5K out and firing bit. I ducked him twice while he ran to the next sector before revving. I was almost out of fuel and not going to get back to base. On the third run in I kept the nose on and when he started firing, I fired back. Killed him but ran into his wreckage :)
Personally I'm still lousy at getting out of the way in the big old 38. But I worry more about the guys that don't HO then I do about the one's who do.
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I try not to HO. When I was younger and flew planes that had lots of cannons I did it constantly, simply because to me it was how I could actually obtain a victory. Now a days I do my best not to HO. I will HO on the merge if my opponent opens fire first. Like most of you, I expect to be hoed on every merge. Since I started flying FSO many years ago I’ve studied a lot of the aircraft to know their strengths and weaknesses so that after the initial merge I may work that into my favor.
I personally believe that many of the new players we get do not care about ACM and only care about their score and kills, so they will HO, and continue to do so. To the select few that do want to learn ACM, I believe the HO should be taught as a last option, but they should also be taught to be ready to be HOed in every merge and how to counter it.
I am by no means a good stick, but with some of the new guys I’ve helped, I’ve tried to teach them my ideas on the HO. I also believe that the new players should follow what helps them achieve their success to build their confidence. If that is the HO then let them HO until they get comfortable with learning advanced techniques, maneuvers, and tactics.
:salute
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You guys are ignoring the question.
I stopped trying HO's dead on long ago because I lost 99% of them.
But, so much effort is made by some of the player base to PR everyone out of engaging in the activity short of HiTech Creations telling players HTC considers it a BIG NO NO and can be grounds for expulsion; I'm curious why the group effort against other paying customers?
Why all of the PR campain to make people beleive HOing is as bad as sex between two men or hacking the game code? Why the witch hunt to stigmatise any player that engages in it? One might ask why are you taking part in openly descriminating against other players freedom of play based on an activity HTC created as an intergal part of the environment?
All of you do realise you are taking it upon yourselves outside of HTC rules of play to personally descriminate against other players based on one game activity: Head On Shooting?
Many of you get steamed up in the O club if your personal rights get stepped on. But it is OK for you to step on others in this game based on your personal bias towards how the game HAS TO BE PLAYED by a group peer effort to stigmatise them from thier same personal rights while playing in Aces High.
So lets have a vote guys. Do you beleive your rights to how the game should be played superceed everyone elses into the future?
Better yet can we get a GOD ruleing from HiTech on the HO. I have problems with peer group preassure to stigmatise paying customers.
1.) Is it an acceptable part of game play and a combat technique like any other?
2.) Is it the sign of an uncouth lowlife and anyone engageing in it is fair game to be stigmatised and made to feel thier $14.95 is less than the peer group identifing them?
(Flew with Bustr last night. Great guy and a true asset to the community. Wish I didn't die so much in front of him but he didn't seem offended by that. Love that I-16, none-the less.) :)
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Rodent was more then willing to use a comment like "oh wow that's the first time I've seen you use your flaps ever Junky" that same night so Arlo...quit defending his honor because he was obviously more th(a)n ready to fuss that night.
The true motive for this thread appears to come to light in this quote. You're angry with Rodent57 for that (rather mild) comment, aren't you? It seems a bit over the top to try to organize the community against him over something like that even though you tried to frame it differently, at first. Guess you knew how far such a ridiculous complaint would go if you took it straight to HTC (or did you try that first?). Seems his honor is much more worth defending than yours.
And with this observation I will indeed leave this deceptive thread to you and whomever. Carry on (and carry on). :)
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I tried to HO the other night....cop told me to go home and that was my one warning.
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You're angry with Rodent57 for that (rather mild) comment, aren't you?
"Thank you for buying Joo Janta 2000 confirmation bias reading glasses. We are sure you will enjoy endless hours of prejudice reinforcing and self-stroking smugness reading any text while looking stylish at the same time".
And with this observation I will indeed leave this deceptive thread
What are the chances.
I will use the HO on a plane with a much better turn rate. If I head towards a Zeke (or a brewster) and he sees me, he will turn towards me. The ho will be the only shot I get, because I can't turn with those planes.
This is quite an interesting case to discuss, as I know Mr. Vinkman to be a competent (mostly) K-4 stick. Of course he is free to take any shot he pleases. He's a big boy and pays his subscription. I'd be curious to know your estimated jousting success rate? Better than 50/50?
Let's analyse this match up. Let's say A6M vs K-4, just picking one arbitrarily. The tactical aspect is suggested by some of the relative attributes of the planes. Assuming reasonable set up for a merge the K-4 is an energy builder, has a higher top speed, better vertical stability and torque manoeuvring and a much higher power loading. Plus the armament is particularly well suited to the kinds of shot solutions the airframe generates and very decisive. The A6M of course a famous TnBer, has also a pretty good sustained climb and is pretty well armed with an armament also well suited to the solutions it makes (but very different to the K-4). Assuming your opponent had Rud3boi / Bruv119 aim let's just leave toughness out of the question and try not to get shot at all.
Neither of these aircraft have particularly good energy retention but the K-4 being faster and both planes above corner speed in the merge suggests it's inconceivable that a K-4 cannot top-out higher and in a safe position above the A6M. Assuming the K-4 pilot plays his cards right with a good set of opening moves. Let's look what's changed at the top. The K-4 will be nose-high or even nose-vert when he stalls, even if you don't know post-stall manoeuvres it will self correct to nose-low by itself with a roll or two. Very rapid DPS is available if you do learn to post stall. The A6M will have lost its turn rate advantage temporarily because without much airspeed there is no surplus lift. It does not share the K-4s aility to torque manoeuvre. Plus the K-4 is above with both an energetic and positional advantage to descend at a slower rate, needing less thrust vector manipulation to make an angle. Now the A6M is defensive. The K-4 should have little difficulty cutting inside the initial turns of the A6M and generate snap shots. the A6M pilot's job is to establish a turn rate fight to get safe and then bring his guns to bear. The K-4 should turn away from the one-circle and engaging full flap nose-to-nose manoeuvring with a good amount of vert thrown in should enable it to cut inside the early phases with a smaller and out-of-plane radius. Even if the A6M reduces angle-off-tail on the K-4, its higher power loading allows it to out turn the A6M into the vert and generate overshoots. Especially if the K-4 stick can get more wings-level on his pull up (which he should because he's initiating the turns). The longer the K-4 pilot can sustain this kind of vertical scissors, the longer his superior power-loading will announce over the A6M.
Classic power-loading vs wing-loading battle. I'd have to give the edge to a prepared competent K-4 stick, even though his fight is much harder (and I think more rewarding).