General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 09:44:39 AM
Title: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 09:44:39 AM
Perspective.
The first years of AW was 2D graphics that simulated 3D IMO, back in band camp, the concept immersion of how the sim was played over-shadowed the graphics. Fun outweighed graphics. So some of us old dogs are used to tolerating graphics for this concept, we've over-looked quite a bit and are conditioned to do so.
Today the massively Multiplayer concept is sacrificed for high-end graphics.
I've always viewed AW as the very trunk of the tree. When AH came along it greatly advanced the original AW concept. It became the next level in the trunk of the tree. Other sims attempted to beat out the AW concept and their life span varied, and then into the abyss. As sims progressed and we move up from the trunk the MP concept starts to branch off into thinner branches, the least they resemble the trunk of the tree. They are thinner in concept.
The industry has sadly moved into how much can I empty your wallet for better graphics, lacking a fun concept. Even though AH uses minimum AI, as did AW in drones, IL-2, one of the leading WWII sims, punched us with AI, and DCS drowned us in AI. They have moved us away from the original WWII multiplayer combat flight sim concept, the trunk of the tree. <IMO> "If ya can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle em with BS."
Below I found vids that showed the progression of 2d graphics that simulated 3D, into full blown 3D with higher resolutions.
I first found AW in 89 at 29 yrs old. Prior to 89, I thought I was just too old to be playing video games, I had "adult responsibilities". After a death of a GF in 87 I decided I'm going to do what ever makes me happy, however ridiculous. AW set that hook deep. My computer got 12 fps so game play was not doing well. But I held onto the game until I got a better computer, playing it off and on in misery anyway. Then as time passed Windows moved from 3.1 to Windows 95 and computers were just in the window of fast enough, AW was about to take hold on AOL servers. Suddenly the crowds came in and the rest is history. It was purely fun over graphics.
Open the vids in windows to see comments. rarely did anyone bash AW.
This is what I first saw when I found Air Warrior (DOS).
I believe this is AW for Windows
Air Warrior 3D on Gamestorm
Air Warrior 3 promo, someone claimed in cmments that it's AW2, I forgot the difference, except maybe terrain. Pay attention to the credits, many will recognize names that play(ed) AH. 1999-ish
I don't have any AH1 videos, but as AW hit EA.com death AH came along and picked up where AW left off.
Then AH3 came along with VR
This video was posted 1 day ago. IN COMPARISON. IL-2 graphics are not much better than AH3. In fact, IMO, they are quite equal. HOWEVER, IL-2 seems to have more of a gamey feeling to me.
I think AH has the best clouds
I do not recognize DCS as a WWII MP Flight Sim, and there's not much dog-fighting, being rated as "poor game play". But it is high-end graphics.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 10:30:57 AM
Why wasn't this kept in the O'Club?
First, you are looking at IL2 1946 there. That is a 2008 game.
AHIII graphics can not compare with IL2 GB, IMHO. And DCS is superior to IL2 GB graphics, IMHO.
Second, DCS is not a WWII MP. Never has tried to be. Those current warbirds aren’t really even their planes. Those are the pieces of the failed Oleg Maddox WWII DCS kickstarter that he abandoned that ED picked up and tried to finish are best they could to avoid seeing a bunch of customers screwed over. You won’t begin to see ED’s true vision of WWII until their own PTO stuff starts coming out. Even then, their server design is not intended to be a permanent MMOG server. That is not how it was designed. I think they are slowly moving in that direction maybe, but that was not their original design goal. Their servers were design to support squadron size training scale as low cost field trainers for National Guard and Foreign military services. (I suspect the majority of their revenue is military trainers.)
So like 4-32 clients is more like what their original design intent was. That is why I’ve said currently, DCS can not, by design, provide a AH style MMOG experience. I’ve said that repeatedly over the last year as I’ve dug deeper into understanding the server architecture. Some players, through heroic efforts of scripting and support, have almost pounded a square peg into a round hole. Enigma’s CW was easily filling 80 players every night with a line waiting to get in. I estimate with a better server design there was interest to at least fill a 120 player arena. As time goes by, ED seems to be waking up to these desires and the server has been improving. Maybe when they going in to convert the server to multi-threading next they will make more redesign changes. Who knows what the future holds. IL2 server architecture seems to have the same limitations.
However, AH’s capability are largely wasted today. It can handle 500 players, it just can’t attract 500 players. AH numbers are starting to float around 70-120. I see nothing that would suggest that trend has meaningfully reversed. Soon the numbers AH can attract will be about the same as IL2 and DCS can support. And DCS and IL2 are NOT scattering their numbers across 3 countries.
I’ve always been confused why people think that high-end graphics somehow bog down a server. The server isn’t rendering frames for the clients. Graphics are client side rendered and have little to do with the data going back and forth with the server. If HTC had the money for 3-d artists and modelers and if HT upgraded to a more modern graphics engine, there is no reason AH couldn’t also have DCS level graphics. The server is not really a design consideration to the client rendered graphics. High-end graphics doesn’t put much additional load on a server. That load is distributed across each client. It does mean that clients still rocking 386’s with 2mb graphic cards might be excluded. SO it limits the size of you potential pool of players. That doesn’t seem to be too bad of a problem for DCS. People gladly go out and buy whole new systems to play DCS if needed.
Someday someone will have DCS level fidelity and graphics with HTC level server design. Maybe Combat Pilot.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 10:53:25 AM
Nonsense. I’m posting to a WWII MP base. DCS doesn’t fit that. It wasn’t and will not be designed to do it. Has nothing to do with anything you’ve said about DCS. I excluded it but MY opinion if just that in a ine sentence mention. Din’t get your panties in a wad to defend its mere mention.
I made an error in a video dating, that makes everything I say wrong and a lie. We get it.
Also NONSENSE on 70-120 being a cap. You’ve been at this long enough to know its summer numbers. Last winter we hit 200, and average was 130-160. You knew what you were saying was downplay AH with focus on summer numbers that are always lower. Prone time this summer is 100-125.
Why don’t you take s breath from knee jerk reactions of defense and fraudulent insinuations to flatten my rep. This thread fits this board and section, its about AH.
Get a hobby, mow the lawn, do something besides biting my ankles with endless undue obsession based drama.
Don’t march around here trying to hijack a nostalgic thread with your non-stop dcs banter and casting AH in a negative light because you gaven’t played but a handful if times in 9 + yrs.
Get some help with that projection and narcassism. Thus thread was not meant for your bs.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 10:58:47 AM
There is a seasonal oscillation overlaying a long term downward trend. Lusche has shown this time and time again to every new denier that comes along. Every year the winter numbers peak a little lower than the year before. Every year the summer number drop a little lower than the year before. The trend has been continuing since at least 2009. When I came back in late 2018, the average evening count was around 186.
You don't own this forum Animl and you aren't in charge of anything here. I'll post where I wish and say what I want, and you'll have to deal with it.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 11:08:31 AM
There is a seasonal oscillation overlaying a long term downward trend. Lusche has shown this time and time again to every new denier that comes along. Every year the winter numbers peak a little lower than the year before. Every year the summer number drop a little lower than the year before. The trend has been continuing since at least 2009.
You don't own this forum Animl and you aren't in charge of anything here. I'll post where I wish and say what I want, and you'll have to deal with it.
Whatever dude. You are here to out AH in a bad light every single chance you get. Move along. Its not about you nor dcs. Its about coming to 3D from 2D.
Current players know much more about AH than you spew. You’re not the god of sim knowledge.
What ever. Its about nostalgia.
Move along to your own sim boards where you belong talking about your obsession with your own crowd.
Just leave it be.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 11:16:08 AM
Whatever dude. You are here to out AH in a bad light every single chance you get. Move along. Its not about you nor dcs. Its about coming to 3D from 2D.
Current players know much more about AH than you spew. You’re not the god of sim knowledge.
What ever. Its about nostalgia.
Move along to your own sim boards where you belong talking about your obsession with your own crowd.
Just leave it be.
Can you point out to me which of my statements were incorrect?
I will not go anywhere. I will post where I wish and say what I want. If fact, this thread is my new home for a while to demonstrate to you how little control you have.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: waystin2 on July 02, 2024, 11:30:25 AM
Me thinks this was a stink bait post. Enjoy! :aok
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AAIK on July 02, 2024, 11:47:51 AM
The past is the past, you can't relive it or have it back.
The legacy of AW is currently living on in AH and WW2OL. WB is basically dead in the water at this point and is a few steps away from the grave.
AH has decided to auto-pilot until crash as a retirement fund for HT.
WW2OL is decades behind in technical debt and it slowly moving to the future. If they get there who know? Despite, its still in active development.
The future of these games depend on us to propagate the genre. If we don't do it no one will.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 11:59:14 AM
WB is basically dead in the water at this point and is a few steps away from the grave.
I was wondering. I knew WWIIOL was still sorta out there. It wasn't clear if WB still was even though I've heard no official announcement of it closing. I tried to go to their forums the other day and it was like all gone or something and has been for months. http://bhlanding.ient.com/warbirdsforum/index.php (http://bhlanding.ient.com/warbirdsforum/index.php)
Maybe Wild Bill is throwing all his money behind his bow-hunting game.
Ooofff.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Skyyr on July 02, 2024, 12:48:13 PM
This is the current IL2.
https://youtu.be/LY5SuI9CH8Q?si=Skq6H5C1JFyoHUNV
Absolutely a massive graphics difference.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 01:00:47 PM
Correct, my bad. But it still applies, maybe more, MP is diminished for graphics. Same point, error in comparison. Whats the biggest MP on one server/arena numbers compared to AH. Which is my point. We’re branching away from Mp.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 01:03:34 PM
This is the current IL2. Absolutely a massive graphics difference.
YEah. I was working up a review of AHIII vs patched 1946. AHIII and patched 1946 are VERY close in graphical quality. I think 1946 had slightly better ground graphics, AH had superior clouds. Neither were up to current IL2 GB standards.
Never could get decent Dover cliffs in AH. I think I saw someone say that a scenario used a 3-d object laid on the terrain to do it, but I could find no screenshot. (https://shared.akamai.steamstatic.com/store_item_assets/steam/apps/2118560/ss_65bdb7d6c163652b2a31ae770e517d7d3f7d72c2.1920x1080.jpg?t=1708454015)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 01:04:28 PM
Correct, my bad. But it still applies, maybe more, MP is diminished for graphics. Same point, error in comparison. Whats the biggest MP on one server/arena numbers compared to AH. Which is my point. We’re branching away from Mp.
How are graphics diminishing MP?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 01:08:07 PM
Balance, just as HT did here. Going full tilt and say 500 players us going to take fod hits. You know that answer.
Example, an ah player stated that during MotA, when everyone was firing guns in buffs, their fps dropped to 30. If thise graphics were mire intense the fps hit would be worse.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 01:18:35 PM
Balance, just as HT did here. Going full tilt and say 500 players us going to take fod hits. You know that answer.
Example, an ah player stated that during MotA, when everyone was firing guns in buffs, their fps dropped to 30. If thise graphics were mire intense the fps hit would be worse.
No I don't know the answer. I'd say locally rendered graphics have very little effect on the server packet traffic.
Not on the kinds of machines DCS players buy.
For DCS and IL2, it is their server design that is the limiter. Not their graphics. This isn't 1990 anymore. The graphic processing is off loaded to the GPU not CPU. Unless you are running SP or you are running your own server locally, The AI load and packet management are offloaded to the server and the Client is seldom CPU bound in MP.
I'm not saying graphics has no effect, but it isn't holding MP back in DCS and IL2. I could give you a 5 page list of the things in the server that are holding DCS back from MMO. But graphics aren't the limiting variable.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Spikes on July 02, 2024, 01:23:32 PM
The Combat Box server in IL2 has 84 slots I believe. I have to imagine there is no technical limit though going above that would likely start to cause problems especially if everyone is close by, which in IL2 they more or less are.
I agree that the server design/architecture of AH and IL2 is probably vastly different. AH is also a centrally hosted server whereas IL2 you can host with an old Optiplex.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 01:47:18 PM
The Combat Box server in IL2 has 84 slots I believe. I have to imagine there is no technical limit though going above that would likely start to cause problems especially if everyone is close by, which in IL2 they more or less are.
I agree that the server design/architecture of AH and IL2 is probably vastly different. AH is also a centrally hosted server whereas IL2 you can host with an old Optiplex.
With an appropriately scaled terrain, not spreading across 3 countries, I'd say 84 slots is more than enough for hella fun. Different genre but a 64 player BF4 server "feels" like you are on a 300 player AH server. Gameplay is just properly scaled and optimized make the most of 64 players.
YEah.
IL2 and DCS were designed from the ground up to be single player with some short-lived, limited scale MP\Co-Op networking bolted on.
AH (and WT) were design from day one, from the ground up as pure MP. In fact, really as MP only. AH has thrown in a little bit of very limited offline practice capability, but for AH, offline is a minor sideshow that was never pursued. The servers are completely designed differently.
I think both IL2 and DCS are looking at WT and realizing maybe they need to get better MP\MMO. I think CP recognizes the problem and is designing from the ground to make both SP and MP first class citizens in their design. I bet 1C pushes further into MP with their new Korea platform.
On the other hand, I'd say a lack of SP capability has hurt AH. At least in the revenue area.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Tumor on July 02, 2024, 01:50:51 PM
The first years of AW was 2D graphicss that simulated 3D....
Regarding MMOL, Air Warrior is/was the trunk of the tree. Aces High is a result of people fighting over vision, money, rights & attitudes or whatever.... and technically, it's a spin-off that beat the pants off it's conceptual origins. Aces High hit a niche at the right time and place and won the prize. The FM felt very nice regarding realism (to me), which was a huge plus for immersion.
DCS was never intended to ever even BE a WWII Flightsim, although... one could consider it to have been bound to happen eventually. WWII in DCS is essentially an abandoned add-on, something saved by ED as a way of taking care of paying customers. It's taken years, but it's gaining traction with WWII.
The only real problem regarding IL-2 (GREAT BATTLES) is (for me) eye strain brought on by everything in the viewing area being mildly greyed-out. And VR exacerbates the problem. I'm confident there's a setting or fix or workaround (ya ya, I know, I have Reshade), I've just never worried enough about it to take away from my Flight-Time "when" I'm in my IL-2 phase. The plane-set IMO is sufficient, although lacking. That said, I'm pretty sure there will never be a Flightsim that has a plane-set I'm satisfied with. Why the hell hasn't anyone ever done a Do17?? Don't start with Wartunder... just don't.
Aces High is a "Game". Hitech's very own words. Albeit a Game with Flightsim tendencies... it's heavily "Gamed up" far beyond what it ever needed. JMHO but this approach is more a pathogen regarding the current state of AH than graphics ever could be. The approach of what is basically a Sandbox game with "do whatever you want" also invites Capt McGamer to exploit any and every aspect of "the game", inside AND outside the game. Capt McGamer is that disease that shouts "it's MY $14.95" all the way to the ashes of what was once a great thing.... with community support. Kinda earned what is. Just sayin.
IL-2 (GREAT BATTLES) is significantly more advanced than Aces High in Graphics, and quite possibly Flight Model... I'm not sure anyone who hasn't flown a few Warbirds can make a definitive statement in that department. And no, I'm not going to consider a joyride in a P-51 as grounds for a scientific conclusion. IL-2 is still a Game, however far less easily noticeable than Aces High, and it leans more toward the Historical, which speaks to immersion.
DCS is a Flight-Simulation-Game, as best described by one of their Executive Producers when asked directly by 2 (former) Pilot-Youboobers (F-16/F-18) who've spent a bit of doing vids of their DCS experience. The Immersion aspect of DCS outpaces Aces High by Light-Years.
If you're version of Immersion is limited, essentially, to numbers of players in a dogfight, then sure, AH wins. Immersion to some includes getting in as tight as possible with RL... meaning your plane will kill you faster than the enemy if your approach to engine management is limited throttle manipulation. Also, understanding there are consequences to shooting when you don't bother to identify what you're shooting. Just the ATTEMPT of Historical immersion presented by IL-2 & DCS is more advanced than AH.
At the end of the day, if anything interrupted the success of Aces High... it's Wartunder. Easily. AH & WT are in a category, so to speak. So are IL-2 & DCS. There's some bleed-over... but solidly different things.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 02, 2024, 02:27:22 PM
Nonsense. I’m posting to a WWII MP base. DCS doesn’t fit that.
DCS has the WWII assets Pack
For Maps DCS has the Normandy, Channel, and Normandy 2.0 maps plus, the free Marianas map is getting a WWII update for free.
For aircraft DCS has the free TF51d (No Guns), Paid aircraft the P-47D Thunderbolt, P-51D Mustang, Mosquito FB VI, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, Fw 190 A-8, Bf 109 K-4 Kurfurst, Fw 190 D-9 Dora, and the I-16.
For Campaigns they have more than you can shake a joystick at.
DCS is also getting the F6F Hellcat, F4u Corsair, the LA7 and an Essex Carrier.
As far as Multiplayer ... My Squad has 6 DCS servers with a 7th getting set up and they compare to and can surpass paid professionally managed servers.
So not only does DCS "Fit That" it does it better and more realistic than anything else ... I just wish we could get a p38J/L that would probably bring Drano to the game. 2 weeks maybe?
However between DCS and IL2 Great Battles, IL2 does have the more complete WWII experience however, DCS still does realism and graphics better.
Now IL2:1946 is an older beast itself as it is a 2006 add-on and a compilation release of the combat flight simulation game IL-2 Sturmovik that came out in 2001 and it includes Pacific Fighters that Came out in 2004.
So if you are comparing AHIII to IL2:1946 "IL-2 graphics are not much better than AH3." than you are comparing 2001-2006 graphics to 2015 graphics that came out almost a decade later. That doesn't make Aces High III look to good IMHO and you probably shouldn't bring it up if your trying to promote Aces High.
This thread should probably be in the O'Club.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 02:56:00 PM
OK. Don't get me started on that one. That is just plain stupid. Even though I got it for like $10 or something, it's the principle. That should be just part of any WWII terrain purchase.
Mag3 is coming out with a PTO asset pack that will be free with their Corsair. I don't know if ED is also planning their own PTO asset pack with additional stuff they plan to charge for. Really dumb mistake IMHO. Mag3 has the right idea. Maybe not free generally, but if I purchase a plane or a terrain, throw it in for free.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 02, 2024, 03:19:11 PM
OK. Don't get me started on that one. That is just plain stupid. Even though I got it for like $10 or something, it's the principle. That should be just part of any WWII terrain purchase.
I totally agree on that.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 04:33:06 PM
Regarding MMOL, Air Warrior is/was the trunk of the tree. Aces High is a result of people fighting over vision, money, rights & attitudes or whatever.... and technically, it's a spin-off that beat the pants off it's conceptual origins. Aces High hit a niche at the right time and place and won the prize. The FM felt very nice regarding realism (to me), which was a huge plus for immersion.
DCS was never intended to ever even BE a WWII Flightsim, although... one could consider it to have been bound to happen eventually. WWII in DCS is essentially an abandoned add-on, something saved by ED as a way of taking care of paying customers. It's taken years, but it's gaining traction with WWII.
The only real problem regarding IL-2 (GREAT BATTLES) is (for me) eye strain brought on by everything in the viewing area being mildly greyed-out. And VR exacerbates the problem. I'm confident there's a setting or fix or workaround (ya ya, I know, I have Reshade), I've just never worried enough about it to take away from my Flight-Time "when" I'm in my IL-2 phase. The plane-set IMO is sufficient, although lacking. That said, I'm pretty sure there will never be a Flightsim that has a plane-set I'm satisfied with. Why the hell hasn't anyone ever done a Do17?? Don't start with Wartunder... just don't.
Aces High is a "Game". Hitech's very own words. Albeit a Game with Flightsim tendencies... it's heavily "Gamed up" far beyond what it ever needed. JMHO but this approach is more a pathogen regarding the current state of AH than graphics ever could be. The approach of what is basically a Sandbox game with "do whatever you want" also invites Capt McGamer to exploit any and every aspect of "the game", inside AND outside the game. Capt McGamer is that disease that shouts "it's MY $14.95" all the way to the ashes of what was once a great thing.... with community support. Kinda earned what is. Just sayin.
IL-2 (GREAT BATTLES) is significantly more advanced than Aces High in Graphics, and quite possibly Flight Model... I'm not sure anyone who hasn't flown a few Warbirds can make a definitive statement in that department. And no, I'm not going to consider a joyride in a P-51 as grounds for a scientific conclusion. IL-2 is still a Game, however far less easily noticeable than Aces High, and it leans more toward the Historical, which speaks to immersion.
DCS is a Flight-Simulation-Game, as best described by one of their Executive Producers when asked directly by 2 (former) Pilot-Youboobers (F-16/F-18) who've spent a bit of doing vids of their DCS experience. The Immersion aspect of DCS outpaces Aces High by Light-Years.
If you're version of Immersion is limited, essentially, to numbers of players in a dogfight, then sure, AH wins. Immersion to some includes getting in as tight as possible with RL... meaning your plane will kill you faster than the enemy if your approach to engine management is limited throttle manipulation. Also, understanding there are consequences to shooting when you don't bother to identify what you're shooting. Just the ATTEMPT of Historical immersion presented by IL-2 & DCS is more advanced than AH.
At the end of the day, if anything interrupted the success of Aces High... it's Wartunder. Easily. AH & WT are in a category, so to speak. So are IL-2 & DCS. There's some bleed-over... but solidly different things.
I struggle to find anything to disagree with here. It just wasn’t the intent of the thread.
Trips can steer a sober car driver into a ditch, rarely on subject. Totally predictable to ANYTHING I post. People who call me obsessed are obsessed. Don’t like the game don’t play it. Don’t like it or play it then why are you here? To kill it? If I spent 24/7 obsessed with a game so much I’m spewing it in other game forums I’m due for intervention.
The thread is sbout where we came from and what is being lost.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 04:48:04 PM
Then perhaps you should not have decided to throw in comments concerning DCS and IL2 in the very first post of your thread.
The topics are now fair game.
I stated so. I don’t need your ankle biting to tell me. You knee jerked too. Had anyone else posted it you wouldn’t pounce every dingle flaw as s catastrophe. You’re drama.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 05:01:26 PM
I stated so. I don’t need your ankle biting to tell me. You knee jerked too. Had anyone else posted it you wouldn’t pounce every dingle flaw as s catastrophe. You’re drama.
There is no drama on our side.
We are discussing the interesting topic you were kind enough to bring up.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 05:15:18 PM
We are discussing the interesting topic you were kind enough to bring up.
“Our side”? Tell. Yes you are and no you’re not. You picked the smallest part if intended subject to incite drama like you’re known for.
In the end what I said about dcs is exactly true. There was zero need for your side. You hijacked the thread, because you’re all about drama. You spend too much time trying to make me look a fool and looking a fool doing so. Knee jerk rush.
You don’t loke the game, don’t play the game, think the players are fools. Why are you here? To put it in s bad light at every tirn with circle talk. We all get it.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 05:24:27 PM
You posted on a public forum, Animl. You don't get to pick who replies or what they are allowed to say. You don't run anything here.
Oh yes he does!!!
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Meatwad on July 02, 2024, 06:21:28 PM
Throws a tantrum about how if everyone that doesnt 100% support AH is an evil terrible person then will play the victim when posts dont go his way
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Lazerr on July 02, 2024, 06:23:20 PM
This toejam is getting ridiculous
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Drano on July 02, 2024, 08:50:17 PM
I think what's happened here is Animl is basically like Rumplestilskin who went to sleep in 2010, woke up 6 months ago and has effectively tuned out everything else that's happened in the flight sim world since. For those of us that were awake that whole time we've seen what actually happened. He's refused to accept on any level what's happened in the flight sim world or internet gaming. He's not really part of that and this post shows it. I love AH. I really do. But what it once was is long gone. I've fiddled with IL2. Like it. Haven't gone full in on it like I did with AH.
@Mayhem. Love ya buddy but jets ain't my thing so DCS is a no. No problem with the clickable cockpits and engine management. I'm all set up for that hardware wise. Their WW2 isn't fleshed out enough. Maps look sweet tho. Closest I get to that is warbirds in MSFS. Got the Flying Iron P-38, F6F, Spit9 and 109. Messing with that more than anything else these days. Learning the nav aids on the GA birds and sight seeing around the world. No shooting at stuff. I miss that and that definitely sucks but it is what it is.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 09:16:38 PM
@Mayhem. Love ya buddy but jets ain't my thing so DCS is a no. No problem with the clickable cockpits and engine management. I'm all set up for that hardware wise. Their WW2 isn't fleshed out enough. Maps look sweet tho.
Agreed. Jets don't really interest me. Though I think maybe it is more, fly-by-wire. I have the F-16 and I appreciate it technically, but it is a fbw aircraft and it feels it. I might try the F-86. I'd fly a ME-262. Those are jets, just not fbw. Maybe F-4. That's at he edge with all it's electronics.
Agreed their WWII is currently a confused bag of pieces Oleg left on the floor. Scattered and unfinished. No cohesive vision there. Yet. That's Oleg's mess though. I'll judge them by the coming PTO mess. That one will be all theirs. ;)
Do you like the FEEL of the DCS warbirds?
Does IL2: Korea interest you? (I'm not sure what that even means given IL2 didn't server in Korea, did they?)
Does Combat Pilot interest you?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: TryHard on July 02, 2024, 09:42:12 PM
when everyone was firing guns in buffs, their fps dropped to 30. If thise graphics were mire intense the fps hit would be worse.
That is a big misunderstanding of the difference between CPU bound and GPU bound framerate. Graphics quality is 99% of the time GPU bound (With the exception of render distance which is always CPU bound). While everyone firing their guns in buffs and fps dropping is not indication of the graphics quality causing the framerate to drop, that is a CPU bound scenario most likely caused by the fact Aces High is not a very heavily multithreaded game
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 02, 2024, 10:03:38 PM
Does IL2: Korea interest you? (I'm not sure what that even means given IL2 didn't server in Korea, did they?)
Does Combat Pilot interest you?
Is that aimed at me Trips?
I think the DCS warbirds are about as good as it is right now. I had to watch p51 training videos just to learn to start it up (And I found out there are slight differences between the c and d models). However WWII in DCS is still pretty much limited to handful of fighters in ETO.
Right now I'm not interested in IL2 Korea ... I think DCS has a good set up and soon we are going to have both low and high fidelity sabres and Migs (FC3 is getting f86 and mig15 and we already have high fidelity modules of each) but then again I'm pretty much more WWII and Modern.
In DCS I mostly fly warbirds and choppers ... I need to spend more time in my F18 or F16 before I forget how to A2A refuel.
I'm as stoked for Combat Pilot as I was for IL2: Pacific fighters anything PTO which is why I'm sporting wood for the F4U, F6F, WWII, Marianas, the Essex CVs and the PTO assets pack in DCS. 2 weeks maybe :D
However, I'm going to wait till I see trusted post release user reviews but if It's as good as IL2 I'll get it even if it falls short of DCS ... It's PTO.
Been burned on to many pre-orders ... and then there is Razbam. (Thankfully I got a refund on my f15e and picked up the OH-58d)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 02, 2024, 10:06:56 PM
Oh ya I just noticed the AW III opening video ... it's the opening video to AWII not sure if they used it for III but I'm sure it was used for the Boxed version of AWII.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 02, 2024, 10:15:44 PM
Oh ya I just noticed the AW III opening video ... it's the opening video to AWII not sure if they used it for III but I'm sure it was used for the Boxed version of AWII.
Evidently I'm not the only one who makes errors. I noticed the comment under the vid after posting.
the timing of AH could not have been better....but it did take Tumor a while to get me to play, was angry they invaded our boards like others are doing here. I came scratching and clawing,...it was a great move. I'm bothered about losing MP if/when this dies. Current sims are nice but kinda watered down on MP dog-fighting. That was the whole hook for me, MP with other humans. As I stated, we all over-looked a lot because it was just that fun. Now we're over-looking a lot because it IS more fun than most sims.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 02, 2024, 10:50:23 PM
I can't understand what they are doing with Korea. All I can think of is, "That's a bold move, Cotton."
DCS WWII is a hot mess. But damn, I just love something about the feel and I don't think I could settle for less again.
Choppers are awesome. It's opened a whole new world of sim enjoyment for me. Wish I had gotten into them sooner. So fun to fly.
I'll watch CP with interest, but I've been burned too many times to have expectations. My base assumption is, it'll never end up seeing the light of day. That way I won't be disappointed and I will be happy if they prove me wrong. ;)
DCS...sigh. I'll give them a pass on the current WWII mess. What is there now wasn't their mess but it became their mess. I'll judge them by the PTO stuff. But we know they have problems executing in a reasonable time-frame. But I'd have to hope, once they turn their focus to it, warbirds are so much simple than the modern jets with, their computer systems and complex electronics and radar models, Id have to hope that they could really start cranking them out once they get the focus. Good old fashion, simple cable linkages and some analog gauges. I'm hoping they can achieve a higher production cadence than on their modern jets. We'll see. They and their vendors really need to get to a new WWII aircraft every year.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: yipi on July 03, 2024, 12:40:57 AM
I have hundreds of films from playing AW. Opened a few tobight and watched them. The filns,datte around 2000 AW3
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Drano on July 03, 2024, 06:30:28 AM
Agreed. Jets don't really interest me. Though I think maybe it is more, fly-by-wire. I have the F-16 and I appreciate it technically, but it is a fbw aircraft and it feels it. I might try the F-86. I'd fly a ME-262. Those are jets, just not fbw. Maybe F-4. That's at he edge with all it's electronics.
Agreed their WWII is currently a confused bag of pieces Oleg left on the floor. Scattered and unfinished. No cohesive vision there. Yet. That's Oleg's mess though. I'll judge them by the coming PTO mess. That one will be all theirs. ;)
Do you like the FEEL of the DCS warbirds?
Does IL2: Korea interest you? (I'm not sure what that even means given IL2 didn't server in Korea, did they?)
Does Combat Pilot interest you?
I don't have DCS. Never bothered with it so I couldn't tell ya. Like I said, jets ain't my thing. I have the hardware to run it. Have good controllers. Choppers are interesting but don't have a collective yet. Figured if I ever got serious about helos I'd get one. Messed with them in MSFS. Can take off and fly around fine but landing is... A challenge! Hehe
I haven't flown IL2 online in a while but when I do it's on the combat box server. They fly a lot of events like we have here and have dynamic maps going most of the time. They've put a lot of work into integrating the SRS comms system into the server which does a lot more than just ability to talk and with multiple channels. It has air traffic control, can vector you to a fight, assign callsigns and missions to you or your flight. Pretty cool and immersive AI type stuff.
As for the Korea thing it doesn't have me really interested. Korea. Meh. Flew a Korea scenario back in AW and it was fun but don't think I'd want to do that all day.
Looking forward to Combat Pilot. But that's easily at least a couple of years from being something playable I'd think. And more years away from having a P-38 although New Guinea is on their road map I see.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 03, 2024, 10:01:04 AM
Choppers are interesting but don't have a collective yet. Figured if I ever got serious about helos I'd get one. Messed with them in MSFS. Can take off and fly around fine but landing is... A challenge! Hehe
Neither do I. Maybe someday.
I did realize early on that the throttle I had that worked fine for fixed wing was non-optimal for helo. One of those linear sliding Thrustmaster throttles. I even tried a 3rd party teflon mod for it but wasn't enough for me. There are some mechanical reasons to that but I don't want to bore you. (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/615na1jWbsL._SL1000_.jpg)
I realized what I needed was not a slider but a radial arm throttle. The lever advantage and longer radial arm gave me much better control and you learn quick that very fine control of the "collective" is vital.
I originally changed to one of these cheepie and it actually worked a ton better than my thustmaster slider. (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81cIWzwImtL._AC_SX679_.jpg)
Then I upgraded to: (https://www.vkbcontrollers.com/cdn/shop/products/THQWWII_SEM-V_800_3.jpg?v=1660945064&width=600)
I have now found Nirvana for both warbirds and helo. I could go out and spend more, but this one has fantastic bang for the buck and works awesome for a collective.
Smooth as snot on teflon and a nice long radial arm for precision and control.
$0.02
[Edit: side note for lefties...] I was able to easily flip the handle. Unbolt the arms and run the wire harness up the other arm and bolt back on. Puts two of the buttons on my palm but I can reach those with my thumb. Getting the angle right an having the side buttons thumb-accessible was worth it. (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jteewsx2lrmk9oobo3jpn/thrtl.jpg?rlkey=cekxsf5llfkj74osh0iqlowwo&st=gtrh3ll7&raw=1)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: waystin2 on July 03, 2024, 10:54:37 AM
I love AH. I really do. But what it once was is long gone. I've fiddled with IL2. Like it. Haven't gone full in on it like I did with AH.
This is pretty much every member of the Pigs On The Wing squad. We still have over 25-30 active in various games-ARMA 3, IL2, DS, World of Tanks and Valheim. Good luck finding a new home out there. :aok
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 03, 2024, 12:13:51 PM
I’ve be er seen anything Korea take off in any sim. I would think Vietnam would have a better chance, but have not seen that take off in mass numbers either.
These are different types of wars, mainly with ground troops and jets with limited AC. In AW there were basically only two jets, F-86 and Mig 29(?). Jets are a completely different style of fighting. There’s a lot of distance and speeds, aiming is much different, you have much less time to think.
Ground wars were very limited compared to WWII. A narrow selection.
WWII offers so much on so many levels. A lot of development of AC, ground vehicles, ships and arms. A very wide selection. Plus there is so much history that sucks in historian types.
Prop planes are a more intimate fight. I compare prop and jet fights as one is more of a long distance sniper concept and props is like an up close and personal knife fight, props giving more adrenaline flow. Adrenaline sells.
The point I attempted to make is that some modern sims are banking on graphics over game play. Not very well rounded sims. Great graphics, questionable game play. More thought is put into graphics, game play as a byproduct. More about emptying the wallet for graphics, its not just one sim. Some are Swiss cheese on concept.
Some of us over-think it all with seasoned technical minds rather than how the common player views it all. Very different POV.
AW and AH put game play first. AH is a very well rounded and solid sim/game. Everything may not be “great”, like modern graphics lacking game play, but everything is “good”. One may not like specific settings while others do, but everything is good and solid, and can run on okder machines. Its very inclusive.
Below is personal opinion the way I see it.
Concept = good Game play = great Multiplayer = great Graphics = good Selection = good Community = good History - good Payment model = good
Other sims, each will vary. Concept = good Graphics = great Game play = poor - good Multiplayer = poor - ok Selection = ok - good Community = poor - good History = ok - good Payment model = ok - poor
IMO, too much focus in graphics over other things, both by producers and players. IMHO, IF (a huge word here) AH had modern graphics, it would put a severe hurt on other sims. Same reason AW was very strong to the end, game play. AW concept was so good that many here claim ng to AH because its the closest thing to it. It IS AW, on steroids. Its the fond memories and very historic sim/game. The bond of AWers to AH is very tight. Most hardcore AWers are hardcore AHers. Its very hard for anyone to break that bond.
We got used to over looking graphics since day one. Live the concept, always waiting for modern graphics. Its the concept of MP. AH is the happy place of AW. AWers flew other sims seeking graphics, but always returned for game play. Same with AH. Even those who fly other sims now or don’t fly at all return to their happy place. Its nostalgic. Its the trunk of the tree.The same reason we get more return players over new players. Wanting to relive fond memories.
AH kept a hold on the large base until it stopped keeping up on graphics. IMO AH3 update came too late. The damage happened under AH2. But it is not dead. There has been movement. HT is not completely checked out. He’s one person instead of a team.
Modern graphics are about as realistic as its going to get. If AH came up to that it would never need another graphic update again, within reason. I could see MA numbers come up to 350-400. Take note: we said the same about AW, EA.com said yes, and then yanked the plug. We have a better chance today.
I played AH 2000-2010ish. It was AH2. When I came back in 2023 it was AH3, it was fresh for me, new. Those who left before AH3 get the same effect. And those are who I try to get the word out to. Those are more dedicated players over most new players, they already know how to play, its a happy place. I’d like to see modern graphics to draw some back, but currently, I’m good. Just return players alone can make this sim/game pop. There could be better graphics in videos, but as like me, AH3 is new from when I left. Why I think videos with current graphics can still reset a hook or two in former players. Its kind of a waste of time to target new you g players who play fir 2 week on another game for 1 week.
Since videos are the only advertisement and you want numbers, make and share them outside the box. Numbers breed numbers. Numbers/revenue breeds updates. Restart the cycle. AW just picked the wrong hope/company, we had the numbers. Don’t let summer numbers get to you, its natural, just more noticeable with lower numbers.
Last yr, same time, I shot for 160 from 120. We hit that last late summer. We hit 200 in winter. A goal this year is 250 in winter. We have good game play now and at 160. Things really start to pop at 250.
IF that were to happen, those numbers and that revived game play could push 300 during s good scenario. Don’t F it up with open air petty nonsense. Only two people care who killed who. The winner and loser.
We drive our own train here. Make and share videos and advertise events outside the box.
Foolish? Maybe. But my concept is,.. nothing ventured, nothing gained. <shrug> at least its done with good intensions. We did it in AW, we can do it here. EA was the problem.
Permission granted to point and laugh
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Tumor on July 03, 2024, 02:58:33 PM
It must really be boring at those other so called flight sims....... even their own users do not want to hang out over there.
FWIW... from the community "over there", it's mostly old AH players who hang out here. The number of those "over there" who've never heard of Aces High and likely wouldn't care if they did AND don't hang out here is easily x20 the total number of those who hang here.
Everyone who's here is a potential if not current paying AH customer.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Tumor on July 03, 2024, 03:30:28 PM
C'mon MAN! Just invert your throttle axis... in game.
Popped a Saber for my first ever MP kill in DCS years ago. I've got like 4 kills since..... :bolt:
That's exactly what I did! Have a Virpil throttle too so it's plenty precise. I can take off, fly around and hover. But landing without a hard knock. That's in MSFS tho. Bunch of free helos there. Lot of really nice payware ones. Like I said, I'll get seriously about it eventually and actually practice! Maybe then won't hit the ground so hard!
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 03, 2024, 06:21:34 PM
Never mind
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 03, 2024, 08:41:29 PM
That's exactly what I did! Have a Virpil throttle too so it's plenty precise. I can take off, fly around and hover. But landing without a hard knock. That's in MSFS tho. Bunch of free helos there. Lot of really nice payware ones. Like I said, I'll get seriously about it eventually and actually practice! Maybe then won't hit the ground so hard!
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
I have a CM3 Been flying the Apache since it came out, Flew the heck out of the Huey before that, and I now have the OH58 to add to my collection (I have all the Helos but the Uh1 and AH64 are my fav probably has something to do with being a 101st vet).
Damned Gh0st, Damned Humphreys, and Myself are pretty much the best at Rotary in the Damned. Gh0st has Training videos on just about everything for DCS.
https://www.youtube.com/@DamnedGh0st
https://www.youtube.com/@DamnedGh0st/videos
I plan on getting a MonsterTech chair (debating between the MFC-5 Night Falcon or the MFC-8 Storm Sheep) and a Virpil Upgraded VPC Rotor TCS Plus Base with the VPC Apache-64 Collective Grip. But I do pretty Damn good with my throttle and I don't even reverse it. (Note: Reversing the throttle can make switching between Fixed and Rotary wing a PITA due to muscle memory.)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 03, 2024, 10:10:29 PM
I have a CM3 Been flying the Apache since it came out, Flew the heck out of the Huey before that, and I now have the OH58 to add to my collection (I have all the Helos but the Uh1 and AH64 are my fav probably has something to do with being a 101st vet).
Damned Gh0st, Damned Humphreys, and Myself are pretty much the best at Rotary in the Damned. Gh0st has Training videos on just about everything for DCS.
https://www.youtube.com/@DamnedGh0st
https://www.youtube.com/@DamnedGh0st/videos
I plan on getting a MonsterTech chair (debating between the MFC-5 Night Falcon or the MFC-8 Storm Sheep) and a Virpil Upgraded VPC Rotor TCS Plus Base with the VPC Apache-64 Collective Grip. But I do pretty Damn good with my throttle and I don't even reverse it. (Note: Reversing the throttle can make switching between Fixed and Rotary wing a PITA due to muscle memory.)
I admire the Apache and enjoy the challenge sometimes. Love flying it but the computery stuff starts to bore me. Honestly I have more raw fun in the Huey. I also think I will really enjoy the Kiowa when I have a chance to dig in deeper. Love the feel of it tho.
Awesome, I'll check out your channels. Do you have a discord?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 03, 2024, 10:44:36 PM
I admire the Apache and enjoy the challenge sometimes. Love flying it but the computery stuff starts to bore me. Honestly I have more raw fun in the Huey. I also think I will really enjoy the Kiowa when I have a chance to dig in deeper. Love the feel of it tho.
Awesome, I'll check out your channels. Do you have a discord?
Should be on the youtube training chan I sent you one in PM just in case :D Damned Renegade (REN) and Myself or going to be in the pilots lounge testing our new WWII server. We had issue with Marianas so we are using Normandy.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: save on July 04, 2024, 12:54:51 AM
Greatest problem i faced, trying out DCS and IL2 (both box and Cliffs of Dover versions) was I had to upgrade my PC.
Both DCS and IL2 made the sims a slideshow until i changed both CPU and for DCS Memory, and Graphics card.
I decided to stay in IL2 since I'm a ww2 prophead. Diversity of w2 planes in DCS is just not there.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: LCADolby on July 04, 2024, 03:33:25 AM
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 04, 2024, 05:32:27 AM
These guys will hijack any and every post. Just mention a sim and it gets hijacked by former players.
Trips is just 100% pure hole No it wasn’t bait. Pretty disgusting The thread is as about AW and AH Maggots
I’ll get this shut down myself
Respect dumped.
Uncontrolled dipshts Favor will return x10.
Former players are the real suck of bbs and AH. Don’t cry like babies when I push disrespect. Its coming. I know who my friends aren’t
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 04, 2024, 06:53:14 AM
Why is DCS selling planes to customers they cannot support with bug fixes and updates? The he company who made them, because ED lacks skills, refuse to work with ED because they refused to pay for over 10 months if work, and will not fix their products.
Selling half baked trash is bad biz
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: LCADolby on July 04, 2024, 07:09:50 AM
Typing "IN COMPARISON" and pull out 2008's 1946 game as IL2, not the more modern one IL2-BoS was pretty stinky baity Animl you have to admit :old:
I mean, this is a better representation of IL2; There's some great clouds
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 04, 2024, 07:15:33 AM
I’ll tell you one feature that I wish AH and DCS and IL2 had.
I remember how it handled icons. Instead of cluttering up the main view, the icons were pushed to the top edge of the view and you sorta mentally translated the icon with a plane in the view below.
I thought this was an interesting compromise between getting a bit of ID assistance (until display technology can make the resolution and tonal HDR of the human eye) without cluttering up the actual world view by splattering text under every object.
I could even forgo detail info, just a red or blue diamond would be a big benefit in a lot of cases.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 04, 2024, 07:28:27 AM
Both DCS and IL2 made the sims a slideshow until i changed both CPU and for DCS Memory, and Graphics card.
DCS is certainly a shameless resource hog. No doubt there.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 04, 2024, 12:42:59 PM
Quote from: Animl-AW
Why is DCS selling planes to customers they cannot support with bug fixes and updates? The he company who made them, because ED lacks skills, refuse to work with ED because they refused to pay for over 10 months if work, and will not fix their products.
Selling half baked trash is bad biz
Our understanding this is because it is contractual and at the end of that contract ED more then likely will end up owning the modules.
Yes I agree with you the Razbam/ED drama is bad, but at least ED is giving refunds on the F-15e.
Quote from: Animl-AW
Never mind
You kinnda opened that door with the subject "WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D" This would include DCS IL2 and a bunch of other Sims.
What you should have made your subject is "WWII MASS MULTIPLAYER Flight Sim from 2D to 3D" Which IL2 and DCS are not ... Damn close but AH I think had 150 player arenas when it started in Beta way back in 1999 I think that was also around the the arena Size for AWClassic AWIII and Warbirds III and that put us in way back machine.
I remember when we had to wait to get into the an arena due to population caps.
You also shoulda put this in the O'club <-_-;
Quote from: Animl-AW
IMO, too much focus in graphics over other things, both by producers and players. IMHO, IF (a huge word here) AH had modern graphics, it would put a severe hurt on other sims. Same reason AW was very strong to the end, game play. AW concept was so good that many here claim ng to AH because its the closest thing to it. It IS AW, on steroids. Its the fond memories and very historic sim/game. The bond of AWers to AH is very tight. Most hardcore AWers are hardcore AHers. Its very hard for anyone to break that bond.
Quote from: Shuffler
It must really be boring at those other so called flight sims....... even their own users do not want to hang out over there.
Community.
It's something a lot of people gloss over. Its why we have so many "Old Timers" lurkin the forums that don't fly any more. It's a community that goes back decades and is much older then AH. It goes back to GEnie Delphi Compuserve AOL and eventually Kesmia's Gamestorm. I think the biggest failure of EA's AWMV (AWIII with the Krait's Skin changer baked in) was that they really didn't provide a space for the community. Eventually the bulk of that community moved here and Bigweek.
Slowly over time this community has spanned out to the likes of Facebook, X the social media platform formerly known as Twitter, Discord, Reddit, and such but it has pretty much always been present on these forums if not in the game itself.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: KillerPops on July 04, 2024, 10:55:18 PM
Today the massively Multiplayer concept is sacrificed for high-end graphics.
War Thunder has pretty good graphics and lots and lots of players. It's more a matter of what the focus of the game should be. High end graphics sells no matter what, but with a focus on realism, there's no way not to focus on graphics.
I don't see AirWarrior as the "foundation" for much today, other than perhaps War Thunder. War Thunder is what a successful massively multiplayer concept will develop into, well, if left to develop successfully and success is measured in number of players.
Both IL-2 and DCS come from different roots with much more focus on realism/immersion than "game play". Both have clearly (IMO) been influenced by the Falcon series of sims along with F-19 and several others (Jane's combat sims for instance), and success isn't measured in the number of players on one single server. DCS has in some odd ways more in common with X-Plane than anything else. In X-Plane you can simulate any aircraft to your likings, while in DCS you can simulate air war and what-ifs.
A massively multiplayer sim with focus on realism would perhaps be cool? I honestly don't think so, because the important part for realism is a storyline and realistic war dynamics or snippets of.
AH is also clearly a part of the AirWarrior/Warbirds branch.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Spikes on July 05, 2024, 08:49:17 AM
War Thunder has pretty good graphics and lots and lots of players. It's more a matter of what the focus of the game should be. High end graphics sells no matter what, but with a focus on realism, there's no way not to focus on graphics.
I don't see AirWarrior as the "foundation" for much today, other than perhaps War Thunder. War Thunder is what a successful massively multiplayer concept will develop into, well, if left to develop successfully and success is measured in number of players.
Isn't War Thunder still 15v15?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: The Fugitive on July 05, 2024, 09:22:52 AM
In what world is 15x15 a successful massively multiplayer concept?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 05, 2024, 10:15:12 AM
Well, I can’t disagree. The a small part of the post was a mistake, not remembering how anxious the former players knee jerk reaction to any and every post that has the word sim to sell their own.
I saw it in AW and much worse in AH. I’m starting to think that 30-50% of number loss is the breaking of being in a favorite sim immersion by constant former player negative comments. No less than politics. They put AH in a negative light every day. This disrupts the immersion of being in a sim we still love, OUR choice..
We aren’t allowed to enjoy our own sim. As soon as we do they beat us down with negative spotlight. Its no accident, its in the design. They hate seeing us hapoy with our own sim, while promoting their own. I believe much of our loss is them convincing our players their sim and HT suck.
In doing so they insult everyone who does anything and everything for the sim. Their childish antics insult skinners, mappers, event staff and everyone who contributes, more so HT. Look how much they insult my videos.
Yes, there have been hanger-ons. This is a different breed. They are allowed as nd being allowed encourages more nonsense. Some need a hand slapping..
They aren’t here to encourage they are here as defeatist, daily diet of doom and gloom, sime did the same in AW.. Go play and complain about their own, it has plenty of worse flaws.. Some have become the all knowing elitist attitudes. We’re all stupid for still playing AH. Only their way is the right way.
HT is not totally checked out. He updated connection, approves new maps and skins, updates web page, made some tweaks. He’s doing what one guy cam do. They never thought the sim would last this long and thought it was iver in number drop. Its not.
While I agree with your points, I shouldn’t have to. We shouldn’t HAVE to bow to them and their antics. Former players dictating our bbs is BS. We would NEVER allow this in AW and every single one of them know that. IMO, “ ya don’t like the game, ya don’t pay to play the game, ya contribute nothing to the game, ya don’t like that we do,….sit down and shut up.”
We like what we like, we do not need their approval, nor negative post of shame for it. Allow us to enjoy the immersion of being in our own sim.
I’ve been at this just as long and much deeper than some who spew.
I AM thinking many lost is due to their endless banter. It’s an enthusiasm killer.a buzz-kill. And thats why some do it. Some of them want AH to end, only their sim is worthy. If that wasn’t true idiots like Trips would not attack every sim post, attack me for trying to help and insult my videos. Isn’t it clear by someone who speaks of dcs over 2000 times and attacks someone trying to help AH? He attacked me on my first thread when others saw I could help. This isn’t rocket science. My efforts are a threat to his plan to move this community to dcs. Ya have to be brain dead to not see it. He has some severe hate issues. He IS a dishonest broker who hides facts that don’t compliment dcs. He’s caused more harm to this sim than anyone with his dcs sales, even dickwood. He’s a vexation who needs to go, yesterday.
I agree, but I also have valid points. Take note; almost every one who attacked my post with their sims are former players, not current. Current players were positive and run out by the invasion. It was about how far from AW first days to current AH, its not that bad. Former players make it bad. Its human nature fir former to bash current. Not rocket science. They just sbuse loopholes, like gamers do. Why would anyone in their right mind trust the words if a former player in how good the sim is for current?
Allow us our own sim we pay to support, play and enjoy. Get the rotten teeth 9ff my/our ankle. No respect gets no respect in return.
None of this is directed to you. <S>
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 05, 2024, 10:31:26 AM
War Thunder has pretty good graphics and lots and lots of players. It's more a matter of what the focus of the game should be. High end graphics sells no matter what, but with a focus on realism, there's no way not to focus on graphics.
I don't see AirWarrior as the "foundation" for much today, other than perhaps War Thunder. War Thunder is what a successful massively multiplayer concept will develop into, well, if left to develop successfully and success is measured in number of players.
Both IL-2 and DCS come from different roots with much more focus on realism/immersion than "game play". Both have clearly (IMO) been influenced by the Falcon series of sims along with F-19 and several others (Jane's combat sims for instance), and success isn't measured in the number of players on one single server. DCS has in some odd ways more in common with X-Plane than anything else. In X-Plane you can simulate any aircraft to your likings, while in DCS you can simulate air war and what-ifs.
A massively multiplayer sim with focus on realism would perhaps be cool? I honestly don't think so, because the important part for realism is a storyline and realistic war dynamics or snippets of.
AH is also clearly a part of the AirWarrior/Warbirds branch.
I would have liked to have seen what Tour of Duty could have become.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Shuffler on July 05, 2024, 01:54:39 PM
FWIW... from the community "over there", it's mostly old AH players who hang out here. The number of those "over there" who've never heard of Aces High and likely wouldn't care if they did AND don't hang out here is easily x20 the total number of those who hang here.
Everyone who's here is a potential if not current paying AH customer.
I have to doubt that based on folks having to come over here to find anyone to talk to. If there were anyone over there, they would be over there discussing their game. That would make more sense.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 05, 2024, 03:18:54 PM
Reddit and the DCS Forum are like trying to have a conversation on X. Have you ever tried it? Or on a forum any bigger than this? It's difficult to have a conversation when you have a lot more people participating or interjecting, or scrolling the posts rapidly out of sight. I started playing AH in '99 and know some of the people here from before that. We had a common interest in combat sims before AH came on the scene.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 05, 2024, 03:29:15 PM
How much interaction between folks would this board lose if everyone currently not paying a subscription left? What would you guys talk about that you haven't already? Do you think that those not currently paying are of no value to this board?
Not a rhetorical question.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 05, 2024, 04:08:08 PM
One of my early favorite "2D flight sims". I think the first version was for the Atari in 1984.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 05, 2024, 04:13:11 PM
We probably ought to define "2D" and "3D" though because even that 1984 Strike Eagle was 3D in that the enemy planes were 3D models, if very primitive. But, "real time" modeled in 3D they were.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 05, 2024, 04:25:27 PM
One of my early favorite "2D flight sims". I think the first version was for the Atari in 1984.
Wow I think that was my first Combat Flight Simulator I had an Old Commodore 64 I use to play that, Quest of the Space Beagle, and the old SSI AD&D games on it.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 05, 2024, 05:52:59 PM
Remember that helo game Comanche? Had revolutionary VOXEL SPACE tehcnology! The polygon was dead! It was interesting:
How much interaction between folks would this board lose if everyone currently not paying a subscription left? What would you guys talk about that you haven't already? Do you think that those not currently paying are of no value to this board?
Not a rhetorical question.
Would this board lose a lot of people if they lost those no longer playing the game? yup.
Would it really be a lose? Nope.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: LCADolby on July 06, 2024, 03:50:38 AM
F19 was my first aircombat sim, that game was epic
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 06, 2024, 07:25:44 AM
Would this board lose a lot of people if they lost those no longer playing the game? yup.
Would it really be a lose? Nope.
Myrips the lying punk reported me to DCS for mentioning AH ONCE. Only logged on 4 times, mentioned AH once and he reported it getting me warned. A true proof living piles of crap do in fact exist. Habitual liar.
As far as tech talk, he has the lingo down but kniws very little of how it actually works.
Get em gone or we can pull out u til they are.
We can do without these 5 here HT.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Animl-AW on July 06, 2024, 11:57:53 AM
Would this board lose a lot of people if they lost those no longer playing the game? yup.
Would it really be a lose? Nope.
How can we miss people who don’t play thr game and drench the bbs in endless undue drama? No one will miss them, in even the slightest ways. Good riddance boycott them out.
Fir each one of the 5 we get rid of we’ll gain 5 players. Or more. Time for contributors to protest.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 06, 2024, 12:10:29 PM
Really disrespectful Animl. I won't report you. This time.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 06, 2024, 12:19:57 PM
Predates Air Warrior. Didn't play it though. May not have been multiplayer like some of the other combat flight sims of around the same time.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Lusche on July 06, 2024, 12:28:13 PM
Your grammar and spelling kinda sucks but I'm getting the impression that you are threatening to quit AH unless HT bans any one that mentions another sim with this post.
Sadly this is coming from the guy that likes to troll every one with a post like "WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current" and then expects NO ONE to write about DCS or IL2 or any other game that left this one in the dust.
Then you get your undies in a bunch and asking for people to get Banned Because we wont get down and worship AH or Dale's Johnson like it's the best thing since sliced bread just like you do.
You wanta be an ankle humpin fan boy knock your self out, but try not get to arse hurt when the rest of us don't share your "Fandom" and if you don't want people posting about other games, how about you keep your pie hole shut and not open that door?
If you haven't realized it yet your promoting other games far more than any one else and it doesn't help when you compare AHIII to a game that is nearly 2 decades old (Il2 1946) and then write that it looks better then AHIII ... which is kinda sad.
I Know guys that rarely follow these boards any more, some of whom no longer have accounts, that want to come here just to tell you to STFU!
Oh and just to give you a Clue, you're not the Jesus Christ of Aces High, You are not going to save it, if anyone can save it ... that someone won't be you.
Just another Adam Henry player for my ignore list :(
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 06, 2024, 08:17:27 PM
If you haven't realized it yet your promoting other games far more than any one else and it doesn't help when you compare AHIII to a game that is nearly 2 decades old (Il2 1946) and then write that it looks better then AHIII ... which is kinda sad.
Quite possibly the most least self aware human in all of recorded history.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: KillerPops on July 07, 2024, 08:25:00 AM
Quote
Isn't War Thunder still 15v15?
Whatever War Thunder actually is, there's no denying it draw players like nothing else, and by huge margins. They have found a recipe that works if success is measured in number of online players. The graphics is right up there. Pondering about irrelevant technicalities, using 20-40 year old defunct/dead games as a yardstick is pretty moot.
War Thunder has about 99.9% of online combat flight sim players (70 million registered players). Now, WT is not what any "serious simmer" would even call a flight sim, but that's besides the point. AH is also not what any "serious simmer" would call a flight sim (but eons more than WT though). WT is hugely popular and the reason is a focus on gameplay and graphics with a tint of aviation history.
For any "serious combat simmer", DCS is it. It has about 80-90% of the market with IL-2 as a good number 2, 15-20% perhaps. However I'm sure more than 50% of DCS players also play IL-2 just as much or even more at periods. If I were to bet on which one of these two still was going strong in 10 years from now, my bet would be on IL-2 rather than DCS. Eagle Dynamics recognize the problem however, and have started adding more aircraft with the simplified Flaming Cliff series of aircraft (much simplified and standardized aircraft systems and no clickable cockpit, making them essentially like IL-2 aircraft. Still highly detailed systems and wepons, but it doesn't require 1/2 a year to get a grip of it all for one single aircraft, seriously). Obviously the super high fidelity aircraft in DCS (detailed focus on aircraft systems and full fidelity clickable cockpit) is a niche within a niche, and a sole focus on that aspect alone is ultimately not all that good for business when all is said and done. The new IL-2 game engine will start in Korea, with several jets and last generation props. Where it goes from there will be interesting to see.
Where DCS and IL-2 both are trying to strike a balance between, and continuously exploring and improving the possibilities of- simulation, fidelity, gameplay, graphics, immersion, history, AI, realism, flight models etc and at the same time running a viable business, what is AH focusing on? From what I can se, none of those things. Browsing through this board it's all about some obscure and super nerdy gameplay issues, scoring system, perks and settings that for 99.999 % of the combat sim community is completely alien. People wonder what AH is. Is it an online flight sim, or some odd game of "multiplayer pool" with obscure and often hidden rules ?
In other words, AH is largely lost on most flight simmers. It's not about other sims being better, or having better graphics, it's mostly about people just don't get what AH is.
But what exactly is AH? According to Hitech:
Quote
HiTech Creations was founded with a simple philosophy, by Dale "HiTech" Addink, in 1999. It's not to create a large corporation, a vast gaming network, or a line of online games. It's just to create one game, but one that is better than any other like it. Contrary to most companies, our goal is to keep the company small. We know that with a singular focus and an experienced cohesive team that enjoys its work, the production, service, support, and overall level of satisfaction will be unmatched.
Comparing apples to apples, this means the competition is/was Warbirds, AirWarrior and WWII online. In this respect, AH won, hands down. It's seriously better than any other like it. The problem is the last sentence. Nothing wrong with it, but sooner or later life happens, and new blood is needed for the product/company to thrive. A company is like a child. At some point it must get a life on it's own to outlive the parents. Then again, there's no law of nature that say it should. It's a choice, but the rest of the world isn't standing still just because you are. The standard of what is good or not is constantly changing, and new stuff pops up all the time rendering old stuff irrelevant.
Besides, DCS started in 1995 with the Flanker series of sims, gradually becoming DCS as the sim evolved. That's the same year as Warbirds came out, at least 5 years ahead of AH. The focus of Flanker/DCS and everything in between has always been high fidelity, the study sim genre. Comparing DCS to AH is error from the start.
I think AH has a place in this jungle. It's a unique product with a unique experience. At this moment in time though, it's simply not something that attract flight simmers. How to do that? Beats me, but reading the comments on this board is 100% not it :rolleyes: Outspoken, rude, self righteous and down right unpleasant fanboys are not attractive. What is attractive is an engaged community with many contributors. That's perhaps DCS most valuable asset, and they know it. They also know the value of expressing that at every opportunity.
I visit this board perhaps once every couple of months or something, just to see if something is happening (well, other than new skins... What is that all about anyway?) For me to come back to AH I would probably say the following:
The FM is good. The aircraft behaves like they were on ice on the ground, but the FM in the air is better than the warbirds in DCS (they are laughable). Not as good as IL-2, but OK. It's not something I would change first
The model of engines and systems are way oversimplified. It severely detracts from the experience of actually flying an airplane. In combat this was a huge factor. No need to over doo it like in DCS, but the basics should be correct. Aircraft with manual prop and mixture setting, should also have it in the game etc. Managing temps and pressure was difficult in RL, and should be difficult in the game. Simplifications should be done by "auto features" and/or AI textual help that can be turned off
The graphics is OK IMO. A bit higher polygon count wouldn't hurt though, and more detailed cockpit graphics. But, lots of people judge by graphics alone, and for those the graphics is way below the bar
Localized units in aircraft. Miles per hour in a German and Russian aircraft, is more than enough to shake your head, turn around and never come back. As an option, fine (still way above the line of weird/WTF IMO). Not a deal braker for me, but it would certainly help.
Remove artificial nonsense like perks and other game rules. Lots of reasons to have it, but the reason to not have it is they makes the whole game just a big WTF for 99% of simmers. I know Hitec would simply say this is a game, not a sim, and that's fine. It doesn't solve the problem though. The problem is "we" want a sim, not a game. The game is called War Thunder anyway, and AH is definitely not a better game than WT
Improve AI so AI can be used to populate and balance gameplay. Probably controversial considering "massively multiplayer", but it's now 2024 not 1990. At the same time, get "otto" back.
Introduce rolling plane set. It was by far the best feature of the MA in WB. It gave a sense of grand scale to the experience. A huge immersion factor and an infinitely better solution than perks
Realistically I will not likely come back looking at what must change, and at the same time having all the other sims available where new stuff pops out all the time. Remember, AirWarrior/Warbirds was a big deal back in the day. Nothing else like it, nothing else was comparable. They set a standard. That continued perhaps until 2005-ish with AH, but competing elements coming from other directions already existed way before that point in time. It's the high fidelity sims that have prevailed, and won overall (disregarding WT, since it's simply no flight sim. It just draws lots of people with flight sim interests). Now, DCS is walking very close to the point of ridiculousness regarding fidelity, and has perhaps even crossed the line a few times. Ridiculous is not viable. Regardless of that, DCS continue to set the standard for what is possible. IL-2 is a bit in the shadows of DCS, but what they lack in "glory", they make up for in FM, damage model and "flyability" in lack of a better word. Simply put, despite the clunkiness of IL-2 (compared with DCS), the FM and feeling of flying score goes to IL-2. This makes the new IL-2 Korea with brand new game and graphics engines the most anticipated flight sim thing in several years, decades even.
Lots of bla bla here, but the main point I'm trying to make is that AH is not all that far behind IL-2. It's a different concept, but flight-sim vise it's not that different. But unless something is done, unless AH see some development, it's just going to fall behind even more in every aspect. That's just a fact of life. I'm sure PackMan is still played by a whole bunch of die-hards around the world too, nothing wrong with old games. But a flight sim is something different. It just gets old and weird unless continuously being developed. PacMan can age with grace, AH cannot.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 07, 2024, 08:55:38 AM
Good analysis Pops but I like ridiculous realism. I know I'm in the minority.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: RichardDarkwood on July 07, 2024, 09:12:28 AM
Good analysis Pops but I like ridiculous realism. I know I'm in the minority.
that YES SIR NO SIR realism?
FUN should be at the top of any gamers list.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 07, 2024, 09:39:02 AM
I don't want to get dinged for being off topic so will go back to a previous point. What defines 3D? The first computer "flight simulators" were 3D in the sense that you were flying in a virtual 3D environment. When someone like Animl says 2D/3D are they talking about the cockpit? Other aircraft? The World? Is it a distinction worth noting?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 07, 2024, 09:49:22 AM
If I wanted to get technical, and I always do, I might argue this is a 3D flight sim. All computer screens, including VR, are physically 2D. 3D is imagined in your brain. Play this without imagining in 3D.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 07, 2024, 09:49:58 AM
This makes the new IL-2 Korea with brand new game and graphics engines the most anticipated flight sim thing in several years, decades even.
That's interesting. I guess it's a matter of who you are talking to. I am not embedded in the IL2 community so my access is limited and maybe I don't have a feel for the whole community, but I've been trying to ping the different players I know active in IL2.
I'm not getting a whole lot of enthusiasm from the majority. Some, but not most. I get a sense of more interest in the possibilities for Combat Pilot. Both from current IL2 and DCS WWII fans.
I could be wrong and it will be interesting from an industry perspective to watch it play out. I think they are taking a huge gamble. For at least two years I'd expect WWII in IL2 to be abandoned by dev. (Probably more like 4 years.) The idea is that most of the players will happily move over to the new Korea platform and the WWII won't need much love. The dev in one of the videos said "maybe someday they 'd go back and do more work on the WWII side" but it seems clear to me that a whole new engine is going to absorb 100% of their bandwidth for years to come. From the video all they talked about was visions of the future gong forward from Korea into the jet age. I didn't hear them talking about going back with any grand visions for WWII new development.
I'm sure the russian devs assume their WWII players will just dutifully sit there while being ignored for years and be happy with what they already have. Some will follow over to Korea and beyond, but I am skeptical that the bulk of WWII fanatics will migrate over whole-sale to Korea. I also wonder how long their WWII players will sit abandoned and unloved without their eye starting to stray other sims that might be showing WWII some love when IL2 has moved on. If you show your customer base you don't care about them long enough, you are likely to be relieved of the burden eventually. And the thing about WWII fanatics, is they tend to be...fanatical. I am not convince a majority will move onto Korea. But they are sure primed to wander off if Combat Pilot starts to get traction or if DCS pulls it's head out. Would they come to AH? I don't think so but that is a better discussion for the O'Club.
Why 1C would choose to abandoned a WWII market they are dominating in, and choose to go off and pour their resources into a "Forgotten War", that seems to have little emotional resonance with the vast majority of people (compared to the epic of WWII), and start to compete in jets with another larger company that already has jets dominated and a decade of a lead start, and possible risk losing a lot of their WWII customers through neglect, just boggles my mind. Meanwhile leaving a unserved niche that they did dominate, primed to be grabbed by other competitors who are willing to server that genre seems suicidal. I'm getting a whole "New Coke" vibe with this Korea change. There is still plenty they could do in the WWII genre.
If I were Williams, I'd send the Russians some flowers and a box of candy for kindly vacating the genre my new sim would like to move into. It's always nice for a startup to have an unserved niche to fill without competition. However, since he is also choosing to move into the high-fidelity space, DCS might start getting nervous and decide it is time to move into PTO to get something modern there to provide them competition and possibly strangle a potential competitor in their crib.
Feels like after long sleepy period the the WWII market tectonic plates are starting to shift and a stable state of affairs may become unstable. What the new stable state ends up being, is still unknown.
All above merely my opinion.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: RichardDarkwood on July 07, 2024, 12:22:11 PM
It is a rule and you can be muted for a while if you accrue too many points for "breaking" them.
Fun is of course one of those different strokes things.
There some people here that will mass report other posters simply because they have a vendetta and to anything said that goes against their personal beliefs
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 07, 2024, 03:33:26 PM
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 07, 2024, 03:54:43 PM
Do I get double the points if two people report me for the same offense? Asking for a friend?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Drano on July 07, 2024, 03:56:29 PM
@killerpops and Trips
Very well put by both of you and can't say I disagree with any of that. I'm not a DCS player so really have nothing to add there. I am WW2 props guy tho. I'm kinda dumbstruck by IL2's move here. Don't see myself going to Korea. Look forward to what happens with CP which is years out. Either way it's really sad to say but I don't think we'll ever see the like of what AH once was ever again. Doesn't seem to be on anyone's road map. Events with hundreds of players like we had over the years? Man, that's what I miss. That was the shizznit. Doesnt seem like that's the plan with any of these.
Another factor in the industry that hasn't been brought up. I guess it doesn't help, that as far as a lot of this stuff goes at least insofar as game development, Microsoft seems to have corraled all the talent. They're a colossus. Talk about adding stuff to a game! Not just adding planes but planes with ultra complex systems (every button, switch, radio and nav system modeled) and interiors. Airliners are ridiculously detailed. They're not my thing BTW. There's a whole industry sprung up for add-ons for everything from liveries to airports to softwares to missions to fly. It goes on forever. Staggering. That's just got to be literally sucking the oxygen out of the room for anyone thinking they're gonna compete in the flight sim world. I know it's a different animal from a combat sim. I find myself flying this more than IL2 lately. Boring as that might be not shooting at anyone in my P-38 there! I can only shake my head that there's SO much available in MSFS where AH has literally been standing still as pops put it. All that extra stuff is what will keep a game fresh for a really long time. Versus going stale.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Eagler on July 07, 2024, 04:24:26 PM
Masters of the Air was my 1st scenario I tried seriously...
It was unlike anything else in the sim world I have seen
Does IL2 or DCS have anything similar?
Looking forward to the next one in October
Eagler
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 07, 2024, 04:42:33 PM
Masters of the Air was my 1st scenario I tried seriously...
It was unlike anything else in the sim world I have seen
Does IL2 or DCS have anything similar?
What kind of human pilot numbers was that?
I don't think DCS is geared for that yet. Nefarious said that some of the IL2 servers put on some decent events from time to time.
I think Combat Pilot mentioned supporting different MP modes. Given WT success, I'd be surprised if a MMO server isn't one of the options they are considering. I think they are still into the consider everything phase. I could see a hybrid official MMO server and support for as many private servers like DCS that players want to run on their own hardware. They have the advantage of not having anything chiseled in stone yet so they can look around and see what worked for others and what didn't before locking themselves in. There are sometimes benefits to starting from scratch again.
It will be exciting to watch it sprout and see what it becomes. If we live that long. ;)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: RichardDarkwood on July 07, 2024, 04:51:34 PM
Very well put by both of you and can't say I disagree with any of that. I'm not a DCS player so really have nothing to add there. I am WW2 props guy tho. I'm kinda dumbstruck by IL2's move here. Don't see myself going to Korea. Look forward to what happens with CP which is years out. Either way it's really sad to say but I don't think we'll ever see the like of what AH once was ever again. Doesn't seem to be on anyone's road map. Events with hundreds of players like we had over the years? Man, that's what I miss. That was the shizznit. Doesnt seem like that's the plan with any of these.
Another factor in the industry that hasn't been brought up. I guess it doesn't help, that as far as a lot of this stuff goes at least insofar as game development, Microsoft seems to have corraled all the talent. They're a colossus. Talk about adding stuff to a game! Not just adding planes but planes with ultra complex systems (every button, switch, radio and nav system modeled) and interiors. Airliners are ridiculously detailed. They're not my thing BTW. There's a whole industry sprung up for add-ons for everything from liveries to airports to softwares to missions to fly. It goes on forever. Staggering. That's just got to be literally sucking the oxygen out of the room for anyone thinking they're gonna compete in the flight sim world. I know it's a different animal from a combat sim. I find myself flying this more than IL2 lately. Boring as that might be not shooting at anyone in my P-38 there! I can only shake my head that there's SO much available in MSFS where AH has literally been standing still as pops put it. All that extra stuff is what will keep a game fresh for a really long time. Versus going stale.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Of course it began with Air Warrior. War Thunder probably has even more players today though. Realism isn't what the masses want to my disappointment though it seems. They want games foremost.
I guess computer games are better than widows and graves.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 07, 2024, 05:14:59 PM
Looking at the logs it looks like it averaged around 110 each night..60 something allied and almost 50 axis
That's great. I don't DCS could work that currently. I said their servers aren't designed like that. They could do 60-80. The real problem is I don't know if they have those cultural traditions yet. But those weren't invented in AH. They migrated from WB and AW before that, so the concepts are evidently portable. So who knows how things will evolve.
Too bad you can't pay for an event rather than month and month waiting for the couple of times a year one is run. But for those into it, I can see keeping a AH account just for those. If Melee has any real value to you, then sauce for the goose.
Some might fly other stuff in the months in between AND still show up for the couple of events through out the year.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 07, 2024, 05:23:23 PM
Of course it began with Air Warrior. War Thunder probably has even more players today though. Realism isn't what the masses want to my disappointment though it seems. They want games foremost.
Well, not all of us started at the high-fidelity end. The first games I started with weren't the top line simulation. It's nice there is a progression of games with different levels of fidelity so people can start with WT and move up the scale until they find a level that works for them.
Also, not everyone is retired. Some young guys with a young family and 3 kids and he might get an hour to play twice a week in between taking out the trash and his wife complaining it's time for him to come to bed. So maybe a 15 minute cold start checklist procedure isn't the best use of his hour of gaming time. ;)
He is also probably SP because there is no way he can stay current enough not to get raped by the dead-enders online who play 18 hrs a day, 7 days a week. And maybe he doesn't want to spend the hour respawning and flying 10 minutes back to the action over and over. ;)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Tumor on July 07, 2024, 05:42:39 PM
I have to doubt that based on folks having to come over here to find anyone to talk to. If there were anyone over there, they would be over there discussing their game. That would make more sense.
It's not quite a dry over there as you'd like to think.
Hoggit has 106k members
ED Forums has 179 members & 1068 guests on AH Forums is 191 and 10 right now
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 07, 2024, 06:02:19 PM
Well, not all of us started at the high-fidelity end. The first games I started with weren't the top line simulation. It's nice there is a progression of games with different levels of fidelity so people can start with WT and move up the scale until they find a level that works for them.
Also, not everyone is retired. Some young guys with a young family and 3 kids and he might get an hour to play twice a week in between taking out the trash and his wife complaining it's time for him to come to bed. So maybe a 15 minute cold start checklist procedure isn't the best use of his hour of gaming time. ;)
He is also probably SP because there is no way he can stay current enough not to get raped by the dead-enders online who play 18 hrs a day, 7 days a week. And maybe he doesn't want to spend the hour respawning and flying 10 minutes back to the action over and over. ;)
AI doesn't gloat or whine. I may have indulged in both but a little goes a looooong ways.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 07, 2024, 06:04:40 PM
Here's the closest I could get to a whine from Gemini (Google AI).
"The world moves on, a vibrant scene, A blur of laughter, joyous sheen. But here I stand, a hollow shell, Where memories of happiness dwell.
A silent tear rolls down my face, A single bead, a lonely trace, Of dreams that shattered, hopes that died, Leaving a heart that aches inside.
The sun still shines, the birds still sing, But beauty's touch no solace brings. A heavy weight upon my soul, A story left untold, a hole.
I yearn to feel the warmth of light, To chase away the endless night. But shadows linger, whispers creep, And in this darkness, I must sleep."
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Tumor on July 07, 2024, 06:10:12 PM
Microsoft seems to have corraled all the talent. They're a colossus.
MSFS is good. I've always had it, every version I know of.... but probably not again. Not after the shiiteshow "Beta" I believe 2020 is/was. And, I'll ~never~ understand how or why MSFS so far ahead of the rest. The only allure I've ever seen in MSFS is the availability (eventual) of about anything that's ever taken to the air.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: JimmyD3 on July 07, 2024, 06:23:00 PM
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Spikes on July 07, 2024, 08:12:21 PM
That, along with anything, just means that it isn't supported if there are issues. Does not mean it will not work.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Meatwad on July 07, 2024, 09:36:13 PM
Yep 2.5.6 is what it autodownloaded since I refuse to upgrade windows past 7 on this machine and go through all the hassle of reinstalling everything and getting it back the way it was before.
But playing around with the Su-25 I had around 110 fps in flight on whatever settings it loaded as the default.
And this computer has 64 gb (8 x 8gb) of ram since this is a 64 bit version of windows 7 with an I7-3820 cpu
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 07, 2024, 09:39:40 PM
Yep 2.5.6 is what it autodownloaded since I refuse to upgrade windows past 7 on this machine and go through all the hassle of reinstalling everything and getting it back the way it was before.
But playing around with the Su-25 I had around 110 fps in flight on whatever settings it loaded as the default.
And this computer has 64 gb (8 x 8gb) of ram since this is a 64 bit version of windows 7 with an I7-3820 cpu
Noice.
Then I would suggest grabbing the Free A4 mod and the free blackhawk mod at least.
There is a descent free F-4 Phantom Mod.
Price is right. ;) Though I can't guarantee they will be compatible with that older version. But give them a try. You are on a roll. ;)
If it will work, you owe it to yourself to at least try the free helo.
There is also the OH-6 but I would start with the Blackhawk.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 07, 2024, 10:15:36 PM
Either way it's really sad to say but I don't think we'll ever see the like of what AH once was ever again. Doesn't seem to be on anyone's road map. Events with hundreds of players like we had over the years? Man, that's what I miss. That was the shizznit. Doesnt seem like that's the plan with any of these.
I wouldn't discount the possibility CP is thinking about that stuff. Hopefully veteran pilots are over on CP discord getting early input in on stuff like that. Collecting the lessons learned from 30 years of online combat sims and get it all in one place back up by a modern UE5 engine.
I don't think AH is going anywhere too soon. Costs and effort are near zero now. Population is still declining but probably at demographic mortality rates. It should last a while in its current state. I was pitching AH to 1946 guys yesterday on Enigma's IL2 channel. (I'm such a skimmer). While only 100 players seems like a sad number to us, it is still an impressive number to those guys who get around 20. (1946 not GB.) Graphics are equal. But a $15\mo sub is a harder sell to guys who bought their sim for $4.99 on Steam. And the $0.50 cents a day argument is not that effective outside the AH BBS.
I don't see brand new customers in AH's future. Prove me wrong. Revitalizing legacy players for one last welcome to retirement spin might get numbers back up a while. But some effort of some kind would have to be made to contact them and come up with some kind of sweetener to move the needle like First two months back free. Something. Anything.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 08, 2024, 09:14:37 AM
There's gotta be a subscription fee or some other ongoing pay to win or advertising source of income for any publisher offering a hosted server based multiplayer game. Can't sell a game and continue to support it for years after sales have stopped.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 08, 2024, 10:37:02 AM
There's gotta be a subscription fee or some other ongoing pay to win or advertising source of income for any publisher offering a hosted server based multiplayer game. Can't sell a game and continue to support it for years after sales have stopped.
I'm not saying it isn't fair. I'm saying it is a hard sell when you talk to people.
I think you can get away with subscription, but people would expect a product at the top of it's genre (gameplay and graphics), constant ongoing dev, constant new stuff\content coming out.
But they are comparing it to 1946. AH doesn't really beat it on graphics. Fully patched, 1946 and AH III look very similar. 1946 has a little better terrain and towns and rivers, and AH has a little better clouds and sky lighting. I think AH has a better FM, boats, GV but not a massive difference. I think 1946 patched had nicer sounds. Neither is really being developed further. But you can buy 1946 for $5 and never pay another dime, AH is asking $15\mo every month forever and the only visible development has been skins and player terrains..
Try convincing some people and see what reaction you get. I get:
1. Graphics look dated and UI is awkward. If I push back that 1946 is about the same, the reply is, yeah, that's why I am only willing to pay $5 for it. 2. Subscription? (Their expectation are shaped by WT, DCS, IL2. None of which are classic subscription model.) I try to explain to them it could be justified on the Historical Events alone, but not everyone (even in this community) are into those. 3. Is it still being developed? New features? New planes? Well, mostly just new player made content, skins and terrains. It is still being maintained against braking bugs. But I don't expect much new development.
I'm not sure what you do about it, but I definitely get push back on a subscription given the current state. Maybe someone else could give a better pitch. I have to admit up front I don't have a current subscription. I hoped that would increase my apparent objectivity but I'm not sure it helps. I explain like rib-eyes. Though if I ate rib-eyes for 20 years I'd eventually get tired of it and want sushi for a while. And that's true. I don't emphasize that it would take visible development to start again in earnest and numbers to get back up above 250 and I'd consider reopening an account, but if they asked what it would take I'd have to admit that.
But it's clear there is big resistance to a subscription. People are just so tired of everyone trying to get their hooks into them for yet another subscription. Like it or not, it is extra friction. Two week trial is not worth them bothering with. A F2P subset might make a difference. You could then at least push back and say just play the free parts. Decide for yourself if you ever want to subscribe to get all the rest later. That would help sidestep that friction point. But of course, that appears to not be an acceptable option. So, what are you going to say?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 08, 2024, 11:54:14 AM
SO what does Aces High has that almost no other flight sim have ....
Large Mass Multi-player arenas, one of the most complete WWII aircraft/vehicle/vessel sets, one of the best implementations of VR, a solid connection to the Air Warrior community from way back and you don't need a beast of a machine to run it.
As I have stated before while DCS and IL2 are multiplayer games, they are not Mass Multi-player games.You need player owned/rented servers and even then, most games cap you at about 80 players max per server, Even AWIII on Gamestorm could handle more than that back in the late 1990s. The highest player cap I have ever seen on a DCS server is 255 and I Honestly doubt those servers could actually handle that many before having issues. AHIII can handle something like 500-1000 per Arena.
Aces High if I'm not mistaken has the largest plane set available to a new user from day one without a grind. Warthunder is a freemium game with most of the plane set requiring a grind and/or is behind a paywall. Il2 you buy the game (And some of the other assets) and DCS you pay by the asset (Module) and while it's aircraft are the most realisticly simulated it's WWII plane set is the most limited of the major multiplayer combat flight sims.
AHIII has one of best implementations of VR in a flight sim ... I can still use my Views with VR and I can't stick my head through the canopy.
Aces High III and especially the Aces High Bulletin Board have the highest concentration of Old Air Warrior and Especially old Aces High (Golden age = mid to late 2000s) then any where else on the internet.
Lastly Aces High III can run on an old 10 year old gaming rig and can even do VR on similar systems.
Unfortunately what people are looking for is either ease of entry with awesome graphics or high realism with awesome graphics. Aces High does not have awesome graphics and is somewhere between "ease of entry" and "high realism".
Other players have suggest that Aces High Needs to catch people on the way from Warthunder to IL2/DCS, which is hard without the pretty pretty bling bling Every other game has.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 08, 2024, 12:08:51 PM
Late 80's through '91 or '92 people were willing to pay $6/hr+ for Air Warrior. People didn't stop doing that because they became unwilling to shell out big bucks. It was because others started providing similar services for a lot less money. Competition is good. The thousands enjoying War Thunder may grow tired of it but they are not going to start paying substantially more for something that falls short of today's standards in graphics no matter how much more realistic. They don't even know what realistic is.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 08, 2024, 12:12:51 PM
SO what does Aces High has that almost no other flight sim have ....
Large Mass Multi-player arenas, one of the most complete WWII aircraft/vehicle/vessel sets, one of the best implementations of VR, a solid connection to the Air Warrior community from way back and you don't need a beast of a machine to run it.
As I have stated before while DCS and IL2 are multiplayer games, they are not Mass Multi-player games.You need player owned/rented servers and even then, most games cap you at about 80 players max per server, Even AWIII on Gamestorm could handle more than that back in the late 1990s. The highest player cap I have ever seen on a DCS server is 255 and I Honestly doubt those servers could actually handle that many before having issues. AHIII can handle something like 500-1000 per Arena.
Aces High if I'm not mistaken has the largest plane set available to a new user from day one without a grind. Warthunder is a freemium game with most of the plane set requiring a grind and/or is behind a paywall. Il2 you buy the game (And some of the other assets) and DCS you pay by the asset (Module) and while it's aircraft are the most realisticly simulated it's WWII plane set is the most limited of the major multiplayer combat flight sims.
AHIII has one of best implementations of VR in a flight sim ... I can still use my Views with VR and I can't stick my head through the canopy.
Aces High III and especially the Aces High Bulletin Board have the highest concentration of Old Air Warrior and Especially old Aces High (Golden age = mid to late 2000s) then any where else on the internet.
Lastly Aces High III can run on an old 10 year old gaming rig and can even do VR on similar systems.
Unfortunately what people are looking for is either ease of entry with awesome graphics or high realism with awesome graphics. Aces High does not have awesome graphics and is somewhere between "ease of entry" and "high realism".
Other players have suggest that Aces High Needs to catch people on the way from Warthunder to IL2/DCS, which is hard without the pretty pretty bling bling Every other game has.
I agree with all that.
I forgot to mention I pitch the VR. 1946 does not support VR. I claim (honestly) it might be the best VR implementation in the industry. It had Neck-Safer type capability built in day one. Not as a add-on.
I pitch the flyable, crew-able medium\heavy bombers with AI wingman capability.
I pitch the carriers (which for some reason the russians at IL2 think are not possible ot implement :O) that player command-able.
I don't think anyone cares about AW or it's history. No one beyond this board cares. The reaction is sorta, Cool story grandpa, but what are YOU going to do for ME, TODAY? Most I talked to not only never heard of AH, but never heard of Warbirds, or AW. They heard of WWIIOL.
One guys said that sounds a lot like this other game. You can just get it and play for free. He commenced to showing me a certain russian website. I had to explain the history of that. LoL.
After all that I still get, "yeah subscription. Can't see paying a sub for that old of a game."
[Edit] I forgot...
I also pitched the in game vox. In some ways has advantages over SRS.
I also pitch the more approachable\manageable install. The patch madness in 1946 is a nightmare. My counter-part wanted me to download configure and install a 31 part Rar archive before I could even start and if i went MP there were multiple competing patches so you have to keep separate installs of 1946 each with a different patch to move around between servers and those are different than the one you want for SP. Insane, but for $4.99 I guess some people are willing to put in some elbow-grease to get it all setup.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: RichardDarkwood on July 08, 2024, 02:39:00 PM
As I have stated before while DCS and IL2 are multiplayer games, they are not Mass Multi-player games.You need player owned/rented servers and even then, most games cap you at about 80 players max per server, Even AWIII on Gamestorm could handle more than that back in the late 1990s. The highest player cap I have ever seen on a DCS server is 255 and I Honestly doubt those servers could actually handle that many before having issues. AHIII can handle something like 500-1000 per Arena.
Factor in that DCS is way bigger than aces high. if you took all three versions of aces high and even the maps and skins.....DCS would still be way bigger.
And its one of the reason you cannot run more than 80 people on a server.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: The Fugitive on July 08, 2024, 03:47:46 PM
Factor in that DCS is way bigger than aces high. if you took all three versions of aces high and even the maps and skins.....DCS would still be way bigger.
And its one of the reason you cannot run more than 80 people on a server.
How is it bigger? We talking MB to download or what?
AH can have multiple maps running at the same time. Each arena can have a thousand players in them at the same time. The wars are fought over the capture of a hundred bases both vehicle and 3 different sizes of airfields along with carrier and battle groups. You can pilot over 100 planes, vehicles and boats. Fights include A2A, A2G, G2G, A2S, S2G all happening real time 24/7.
Can DCS bring up even one arena that does all that? OH wait, isnt DCS the one that just sells MODs and you have to run your own servers?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 08, 2024, 04:11:54 PM
How is it bigger? We talking MB to download or what?
It is bigger in data size (One map can be bigger than all of AH 1-3) depending on map Most maps are also larger in size scale and content. One of the most common problems DCS players have is storage space for their DCS install.
Quote from: The Fugitive
AH can have multiple maps running at the same time. Each arena can have a thousand players in them at the same time. The wars are fought over the capture of a hundred bases both vehicle and 3 different sizes of airfields along with carrier and battle groups. You can pilot over 100 planes, vehicles and boats. Fights include A2A, A2G, G2G, A2S, S2G all happening real time 24/7.
Each arena would be it's own server. The Damned has 7 DCS servers running 5 maps, each server is capped at 100 players, the highest player cap I have seen in DCS is 255.
Quote from: The Fugitive
Can DCS bring up even one arena that does all that? OH wait, isnt DCS the one that just sells MODs and you have to run your own servers?
Yes you have to run your own server and Unless you "Know a dude" (The Damned has some Talent) or have deep pockets, Your pretty much at the mercy of people that do. That is True with Il2 and most other combat flight sims right now, I wouldn't class them as Mass Multi-Player ... Just Multi-Player.
But a true Mass multi-player flight sim would require a subscription or freemium sales model to stay in business. Last I checked there weren't very many Mass Multi player subscription based Combat Flight sims ... Only one really comes to mind unless Warbirds is still running.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Meatwad on July 08, 2024, 05:22:22 PM
Do you lease the servers or physically own them?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 08, 2024, 05:28:33 PM
You can lease a cloud box from someone like Fox3 and they handle the setup and config and maint, pateches, etc.
You can run your own at home.
It just registers with the mothership and tells ED to list them as an available server. There is a separate dedicated server exe.
I have a little refurb box on the shelf in my office I've been running a small server just to play with stuff. Costs nothing beyond the box I bought.
You need enough bandwidth to support the number of players you want to host. The rented servers of course are supposed to give you access to bigger pipe.
To host numbers I imagine you'd want a cloud server.
I might could host 10-16 on mine. I had 12 once and it was still holding.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Meatwad on July 08, 2024, 05:43:36 PM
I was given an HP Z4 G4 workstation that was retired and was going to scrap before I saved it. Has a 4ghz xeon processor but will support 256 gb of ram if I reallllly wanted to jam it in there. Currently it just sits on a shelf unused but for the price of free I couldnt let it die in a scrap pile. Sonething like that good for a test DCS server?
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 08, 2024, 05:49:40 PM
I was given an HP Z4 G4 workstation that was retired and was going to scrap before I saved it. Has a 4ghz xeon processor but will support 256 gb of ram if I reallllly wanted to jam it in there. Currently it just sits on a shelf unused but for the price of free I couldnt let it die in a scrap pile. Sonething like that good for a test DCS server?
I'm a hardware-tard but it sounds good to me.
DCS server is currently single threaded. That is supposed to change eventually. It's high on their list. That will vastly improve performance.
I'd say currently the biggest driver is mem. Sounds like you have plenty.
Next you need pipe. I think I read something like 2 mbps up per client slot is recommended? Can't remember. Might be on the Dedicated Server download page listing recommendations.
Iron is a gearhead. Ping him.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 08, 2024, 06:23:50 PM
A DCS server doesn't require much horsepower. Much less than a client machine. You can host a multiplayer session on the same machine you are playing the game on but if more than a few people connect then a dedicated machine for server would be better. I don't know what the bandwidth requirements are but 50mbps up is probably enough to host 15 -20 people, maybe more.
There is separate software for a dedicated server. ED does list recommended hardware somewhere on their site.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: RichardDarkwood on July 08, 2024, 06:54:01 PM
I pay $65 a month for a 16-player server
That comes with setup and service that cannot be matched anywhere. I have a good friend who is stationed at the Embassy in Kuwait, and he is able to log into the server with no issues or lag. Same goes for my friends in Europe. Yeah, it's a little pricey but the quality is outstanding.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 08, 2024, 09:07:47 PM
Funny thing about our servers, we have to list them under "VF81 - VB81" it appears that the word "Damned" is a bad word and if your server has a bad word in it's name it won't be publicly listed, and I guess we wanted to make our servers public.
Whata dcs puddle of vomit this has turned into. You cannot support the AC you push. Period. You may be lucky to get any new AC from this point. You bomb other sims with your nonsense. Its also way more costly than .50 per day. You need a faster machine. Its an investment whos future is in question, maybe more so than AH. The word elitist comes to mind.
Pummeling another sim is low class. By former players who haven’t played in years is mental mush.
Doesn’t matter what ya did in the past, the ones who maintain class aren’t here doing this. The 5 regulars are just disgusting low class rodents. They earned the AH player respect, zero. No one would miss them. These are pinheads who love to be hated, its a life goal, they thrive on being hated. In RL they prolly have deep issues with ppl around them.
They have next to zero support from AH players to do this crap. So they spit in everyone’s face and laugh while they of it anyway. They are proud to piss everyone off here. Zero respect earned, zero delivered.
Your sim is costly, now unsupported ac, and boring as sin. Elitest know it alls. No thanks. If this is what us there, absolutely not. Dense has reached record highs.
The majority doesn’t want your elitist stink here.
From what I read, refund consist of only getting another plane.
We don’t care if you don’t like this sim. We do. We don’t care if you don’t want to play, we do. We can’t bomb dcs wiyh equal bs. You do, just to be mean spirited idiots. Its not that you have friends hete, ya ruined that. You’re just here to spit on us with dcs bs. No one would miss you.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Bruv119 on July 09, 2024, 06:19:08 AM
SO what does Aces High has that almost no other flight sim have ....
Large Mass Multi-player arenas, one of the most complete WWII aircraft/vehicle/vessel sets, one of the best implementations of VR, a solid connection to the Air Warrior community from way back and you don't need a beast of a machine to run it.
As I have stated before while DCS and IL2 are multiplayer games, they are not Mass Multi-player games.You need player owned/rented servers and even then, most games cap you at about 80 players max per server, Even AWIII on Gamestorm could handle more than that back in the late 1990s. The highest player cap I have ever seen on a DCS server is 255 and I Honestly doubt those servers could actually handle that many before having issues. AHIII can handle something like 500-1000 per Arena.
Aces High if I'm not mistaken has the largest plane set available to a new user from day one without a grind. Warthunder is a freemium game with most of the plane set requiring a grind and/or is behind a paywall. Il2 you buy the game (And some of the other assets) and DCS you pay by the asset (Module) and while it's aircraft are the most realisticly simulated it's WWII plane set is the most limited of the major multiplayer combat flight sims.
AHIII has one of best implementations of VR in a flight sim ... I can still use my Views with VR and I can't stick my head through the canopy.
Aces High III and especially the Aces High Bulletin Board have the highest concentration of Old Air Warrior and Especially old Aces High (Golden age = mid to late 2000s) then any where else on the internet.
Lastly Aces High III can run on an old 10 year old gaming rig and can even do VR on similar systems.
Unfortunately what people are looking for is either ease of entry with awesome graphics or high realism with awesome graphics. Aces High does not have awesome graphics and is somewhere between "ease of entry" and "high realism".
Other players have suggest that Aces High Needs to catch people on the way from Warthunder to IL2/DCS, which is hard without the pretty pretty bling bling Every other game has.
from my limited experience of DCS (haven't had time to play anything) there was an organised one life event that had around 110 humans in the server, however it was choking that 80 player max mark seems as best their current server setup appears to allow. 4YA is focused on historical activity so flights and action can be few and far between. in the past burning skies brought about what I would call an AH like furball arena the map didn't matter just 3 objectives on each team to destroy where the focus was largely on getting kills. Until DCS start operating an official server with higher number caps leaving arena setup to the community is a recipe for trouble. Can you imagine what AH would look like today if HT would attempt to follow every wish and whim of all of us crazy people.
I'm hopeful of getting a VR headset and just appreciating the beauty of AH and DCS. IL2 has been basic everytime i poked my head in.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 09, 2024, 08:20:34 AM
Until DCS start operating an official server with higher number caps leaving arena setup to the community is a recipe for trouble. Can you imagine what AH would look like today if HT would attempt to follow every wish and whim of all of us crazy people.
On the other hand, it can also lead to innovation.
Have you looked at Enigma's Cold War? That was a group of players taking a server in a new direction that none of the other servers had taken it to before. They came up with a new server gameplay style that proved quite popular. Different than other servers had tried and different than ED had probably envisioned. They had to do a lot of scripting to do it, but it was roundly considered a huge success. They have their own server and a lot of scripting talent and a unique idea and they just made it happen.
The problem is with a monolithic server, it can only innovate are the rate the company wants to and when the company is done innovating, that's it. You're locked into the stale, last vision they happened to have had a decade ago and no one can do anything about it because no one can setup anything more than a token mini-server with trivial number of limited slots.
DCS makes MANY mistakes, but I think it is great anyone can put up a server and test their ideas. That flexibility and invitation to innovation was a great approach. Most will fail, a tiny fraction with break ground and advance the sim.
I do think, like Battlefield, there ought to be a number of canonical company servers running a standard design, but beyond that, give your players a set of tools and let them try stuff and experiment with private servers too. Often, players will come up with unique ideas they can try and it is nice they have the freedom to rise above the "Oh that will never work...oh we already thought of that 20 years ago and rejected it and will never reconsider again...no one will like that....impossible that can't be done....etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc. Enigma and his crew just got a box and a load of scripters that had a common vision and went off and made what no one else was doing and made it a success.
I believe in a market place of ideas. Let anything be tried by any one who has an idea and is willing to spend hundreds of man-hours working on it and can find the hardware and bandwidth to run a box on.
The chaotic, wide range of server styles out in DCS is actually a beautiful thing to me.
It is an interesting point and one I have even heard HT make. At some point, does a server really need 500 players? The first thing a server designer does is start looking for ways to spread out the fight so that not too many players clog up one area simultaneously. There is some critical mass you need, but really it is more is the map and strat model sized appropriately for the population size. 3 sides is a great design to spread out fights over more frontage. If you are needing to do that. It can also increase the odds of being too sparse if the map size is out of whack with the number of players.
I had made the point in Battlefield 4, with a well designed map, a 64 player server "feels" like the level of action I remember from a 300-400 sized AH population. But things need to be balanced properly. If he map was too small its a cluster-fart. If the map or distance to targets too large, then its an empty wasteland which where you have way too much time wasted trying to find and get to a fight and too long a transit time compared to bang-bang time to keep the fun cycle turning.
So maybe the old style, pile a bunch of players into one monolithic server that can't be innovated beyond what the company's initial vision was, is an archaic design. Maybe a marketplace of different 80 player server designs trying different approaches is a better design. Maybe there are a few company servers that can support 200 players. Maybe occasionally players will come up with something new that the company decides to adopt themselves and incorporate into the official servers once it had been proved out in the private servers.
Just musing on a bunch of coffee. ;)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 09, 2024, 08:25:15 AM
from my limited experience of DCS (haven't had time to play anything)
If you've been out a while and hadn't heard about the CWS, you should check it out when you get time.
They tried something new. It was a success.
They took what they had learned, and rewrote it from scratch again, and made it better.
Amazing what you can do with the scripting. They really demonstrated how much flexibility you really have. All you need is a metric ton of elbow-grease. ;)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: Mayhem on July 09, 2024, 01:25:56 PM
So a Troll, made a Troll Post, and then got their panties in a bunch when people jumped on the Troll thread, and Trolled the Troller back.
This doesn't slide, this is 100% wrong. >>> WE <<< a plural word, are sick to death of hearing more about DCS than AH on AH forums,... be as mad at me as you want. Its NOT what you think. Every single post that's about ANY sim gets followed by pages and pages of DCS from the class clown Trips. And I'm about to dig into that butt like wild fire. No sir, with all due respect you are wrong.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 10, 2024, 11:10:00 PM
YOU and your clan of mindless misfits are responsible for severe damage done to this sim, the players, contributers and HT himself. You can find any way you want to talk your way around it, but everyone here with a working brain knows you are a vexation to the game, the bbs, the players and HTC. The sick part about it is you laugh in everyone's face and get away with it. You can talk your crap until the world goes flat but you sir are toxic poison. You are ignored more than any other player here because of your endless dramas to turn people off from the game OR against me,.. and again you laugh about it. Don't waste your/OUR time trying to talk your way out of the corner you painted yourself into to.
You think it's me all alone in what I think,.. you are 110% WRONG and KNOW it. I'm just the loudest because I loathe people like you with passion. You hate your life so much you want others to hate theirs. You want to destroy their love for the game you haven't played in 9 yrs. You hate that they enjoy themselves in this game, it eats you alive whole.
No matter what is posted, anything about any sim is STUCK with your endless spewing and pages of DCS and insulting drama like a 15 yr old girl and your 5th grade excuses. You ARE your sig line. Read up the thread, anyone with any working brain can see it's not just me.
You are a victim of yourself and nothing else. The sad part is you laugh about it like a sociopath who hides safely behind a PC would. All you care about is what you want,. that's what narcissist do.. blame everyone else for your own actions, you project yourself onto me for cover. You don't want one single person to listen to me because I hinder your ploy of destruction. If you had a psychological evaluation you would prolly be determined as a personality disorder.
After losing my wife and son you called me a sexual predator, which is what took my son from me, and you laughed about it, you still laugh about it. And you pick and pick at me after all that. If I were not a strong person, what you do KNOWINGLY to that person is mutation for the joy of being a sociopath. You are rotten to your very core and damn proud of it and you think that makes you a bad ars,... I eat bark for breakfast, the last thing you are is what you think you are. I've been down roads you wouldn't last 5 minutes on. I sneeze weakness like you.
Just stop it, we all witnessed your constant attacks on me, the game, HT and endless DCS advertising. Shocking only to you, we're not brain dead. There is not one thing innocent about you. You are a calculator, life is all about you, "only you can save us" from this"dead game". however, the 120 players per night might have a different opinion.
You crossed every single white line a human can cross with me, by conscience choice to do so for laughs. You eat your own feet.
There is a reason you stated "I hate people...", and it's not the people, it's the response your actions generate from them. Narcissist are always victims.
I'm a good guy, who has gone through more than your weak butt could ever live through without one in the chamber. I'm a nice giving person, I feel for anyone who has gone through ANY hardship, I help many put a smile on their face, because i will ever have one. so if I treat you like an ahole, YOU need to ask YOURSELF why.
If you wish to keep toying with me, then don't cry like a child you do act like when it bites back. Don't play innocent victim with me.
I don't mind going down to child level with a child, it's normal goo goo gaa gaa human nature,.... it is extremely disenchanting to be forced to go down to child level with 60-70 yr old grown adult, which is where every convo with you takes me. I need an acid bath just to get it off me.
This thread was NOT a troll, it was a mistake and both me and Xanax have spoken. We shouldn't have to worry about mistakes like this, but we do because you are more than willing to beat us to death with DCS, every opportunity you get, no matter how tiny, no matter how ridiculous, you jump on with eager frothing mouth. You think it's just me? read around and get back to me on that.
Talking about others sims is just fine, a daily diet of this game sucks, HT sucks and DCS is great, is vomit worthy. Maybe this game sucks because of people like you putting effort into it.
Mayhem can have his opinion,...it's not correct. Period. The mistake was mentioning IL-2 and DCS in single sentences. I was trying to show younger players where we came from and what we over-looked because the concept was that badars. Again, turned into a cesspool of BS. If that's what Mayhem thinks of me, a cheap cheesy troll, then I can do without it. I have no room for nonsense. I can 86 negative friends like lightning strikes, anything to regain peace, however ridiculous.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 11, 2024, 12:08:52 AM
I've been saving up for a bit due to my wife's contract negotiations with her company so We wanted to have around 4 to 6 months of expenses saved up and that is a lot here ... 130K a year here is like 52K everywhere else. But if all goes well I'm gunna go through an upgrade path ....
Chair Collective VR (replace valve index looking at Pimax Chrystal Super with light house plate) Video Card (Should be at 5080ti by then) MB/CPU/Mem........
Edit: Oh ya BTW the Virpil collective if I'm not mistaken can be reversed and right side mounted .... and it takes joystick grips ... I was going to go with a left handed Alpha or Alpha prime until the Apache Grip came out.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: GasTeddy on July 11, 2024, 01:14:21 AM
Where exactly do you find the page for the mods at? Looking for the blackhawk one and cant quite find it
Yeah that is an annoying DCS thing. Most smaller stuff is usually under: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/ (https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/) But they have a size limit. SO most of the aircraft mods are too big and the downloads are hosted offsite. That can be annoying because sometimes they get moved several times and link become dead.
First post in this thread should have the link for the A-4: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/207102-community-a-4e-c/ (https://forum.dcs.world/topic/207102-community-a-4e-c/)
And if you like the taste of the BLackhawk, here is a link to a free (OH-6 mod). This one is a LOT twitchier than the Blackhawk of course. And the FM is still being worked on by the mod'er. But it can be a fun handful to play with: https://github.com/tobi-be/DCS-OH-6A (https://github.com/tobi-be/DCS-OH-6A)
For all Helo, and anything really, it is really important to get you control curves dialed in. I usually start with a 15 curve on my pitch and roll and yaw. I usually leave the throttle\collective linear.
I've been experimenting lately with leaving response linear, but changing the Y-Saturation to 80%. Haven't decided if I like that better on not yet.
A lot of that is personal preference on feel and what type of controls you have. Some people use full length 2ft floor mounted sticks and need a WHOLE lot less tuning or curves than a short shank desktop stick. Find what works for you.
Iron can prolly also give you a list of good mods. And he has some program to easily add and remove them. You should ping him too.
Feel free to DM if you need help. :aok
[Edit: sorry the first blackhawk I had was stale ver 1.0. I think this is the latest and I updated above: https://github.com/Kinkkujuustovoileipa/uh-60l/releases/tag/1.2 (https://github.com/Kinkkujuustovoileipa/uh-60l/releases/tag/1.2) )
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 11, 2024, 08:15:20 AM
OvGME is a free app made to move mods in and out of the game. Nothing you can't do manually but makes it easy to see what mods you have enabled and easy to turn on and off. I made a few videos on how to use it.
Non core mods. These are by far the most common
https://youtu.be/_STNLtzyWDE
https://youtu.be/GTWdlGOyR7M
Core mods, rare.
https://youtu.be/T_7rTA0OwZY
Specifically for the OH-6
https://youtu.be/szuppmcrmko
I believe there are WWII free mods but I've never used them.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 11, 2024, 08:20:07 AM
Where exactly do you find the page for the mods at? Looking for the blackhawk one and cant quite find it
And if you need a little help getting the a handle on the helos, DM Iron or me.
Also, Iron's brother is a former Apache-A pilot and is great at instruction. I bet Iron could set up his private server and we could get on there to do some Zero-to-Hero training to get you up to speed quick.
Helos is a whole different kind of flying than fixed-wing. New skills and challenges. Casmo has great training vids. https://www.youtube.com/@CasmoTV/videos (https://www.youtube.com/@CasmoTV/videos) A lot may be Apache specific, but even those have a lot of basic helo training that transfers over to anything.
Bradmick has some good training on basic flight: https://www.youtube.com/@bradmicksflightrelatedthings/videos (https://www.youtube.com/@bradmicksflightrelatedthings/videos)
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 11, 2024, 08:38:36 AM
If there is a central location with links to all mods downloads I don't know where it is. I google for a mod which sometimes leads me to a youtube video with instructions. Sometimes to a download site. Some download sites can be tough to navigate. There is a specific folder structure in which all mods must be installed but not all downloads follow that pattern and so you may have to create folders and rearrange the extracted download. I cover that in my vids. Not all mods are created equal. Some are fully stand alone, in that no purchased mods are required. Some are built on mods you have to buy. Some are greatly detailed. Some look good on the outside but may use a different planes interior completely.
Oh, some mods will crash DCS. One reason I use OvGME, to make it easy to see what's installed. YMMV.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: xanax on July 11, 2024, 09:04:09 AM
This thread was NOT a troll, it was a mistake and both me and Xanax have spoken. We shouldn't have to worry about mistakes like this, but we do because you are more than willing to beat us to death with DCS, every opportunity you get, no matter how tiny, no matter how ridiculous, you jump on with eager frothing mouth. You think it's just me? read around and get back to me on that.
Talking about others sims is just fine, a daily diet of this game sucks, HT sucks and DCS is great, is vomit worthy. Maybe this game sucks because of people like you putting effort into it.
Mayhem can have his opinion,...it's not correct. Period. The mistake was mentioning IL-2 and DCS in single sentences. I was trying to show younger players where we came from and what we over-looked because the concept was that badars. Again, turned into a cesspool of BS. If that's what Mayhem thinks of me, a cheap cheesy troll, then I can do without it. I have no room for nonsense. I can 86 negative friends like lightning strikes, anything to regain peace, however ridiculous.
Don't lump me into this, animl. I read what I want and post what I want. It's super easy and should be SOP for any mature, intelligent adult. I spoke to none of this and don't appreciate the attempt to Shanghai me into your myopic, Quixotic battles. Please don't do it again, thanks.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 11, 2024, 09:09:08 AM
So what makes a flight sim 3D Animl? Per my previous question in line with your thread subject.
I was assuming he was referring to the cockpit view going from flat, 2-d bitmap overlay, vs true 3D modeled cockpit geometry.
But you never know with Animl. ;)
The 3D modeled cockpit would of course be a prerequisite for VR.
One of the big snags with Cliffs of Dover adding VR support was a lot of the cockpit was being faked with 2-D graphics for performance. That of course was unworkable in VR. That's why the original VorpX work-arounds really were not viable. The outside would translate to VR fine, but a lot of the cockpit just didn't work right in VR and had to be rebuilt from scratch as a 3D model.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: AKIron on July 11, 2024, 10:43:09 AM
I assume the same, 3D cockpit. It can be 3D without support for VR or 3D glasses though. No depth of field illusion, just a different perspective.
You can even view "3D" from a flat screen without VR or glasses but only works from a specific viewing angle.
Title: Re: WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current
Post by: CptTrips on July 11, 2024, 10:43:51 AM