Author Topic: nightmare for a rook...  (Read 6490 times)

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2004, 08:43:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 11dano11
Slapshot, I agree that some folks (ahem, on both sides) seem to take their positions on this debate awfully seriously, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting to land kills.  As you say, this is a game, and >THE GAME< rewards you for landing kills. It's part of the game.

It's not that it's a matter of life and death, it's just how my play style developed.  Landing kills = good, getting shot down = bad.  Way back in my early AW days I was really focused on my K/D.  Nowadays, I have no idea what my score is, how many perk points I have, how I am rated or anything else.  But I still play to land kills, and I still play as part of a team.

Why is that a problem for so many people?  After all, it's how the game was originally set up.  The truth is, it's the PURISTS who are NOT playing the game.


Exactamundo! AH has a very conprehensive scoring system and a not so comprehensive reward system. Flying realistically is not only reflected in this, but by virture of its very existence in the game, encouraged. Hitech didn't program all that in there to fill an idle Sunday afternoon instead of golfing, so obviously he made a decision to prefer realistic flying to any other as well.

I agree, fail to understand, but agree nonetheless, that a significant portion of the AH community gets some kind of feeling of moral victory engaging at a disadvantage, maybe killing a con or two before they themselves inevitably get killed. I myself get far more satisfaction and extract much more pleasure from the game, taking my time, setting up my kills, killing several, then landing them. It gives the game an almost role-playing aspect. I feel for a few moments as I bask in my glory, I could have been one of those heroes of the sky of WW2 I have read countless books about. There are no books written about the poor bastards that upped alone, purposefully got away from his buddies, got into a flat turn fight with the first enemy that he saw only to get bounced and die in a ball of fire. They just got buried and replaced.

Zazen
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Offline TweetyBird

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« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2004, 09:03:18 PM »
>>As you say, this is a game, and >THE GAME< rewards you for landing kills. It's part of the game. <<

And it rewards you for finding the *THE* fight albeit not it the stats, but in fun. I think Leviathn put it right - the only dumb flying is flying a style you don't find fun. Hopefully the ADD and alt monkey jabs are just that - friendly jabs.

>>I feel for a few moments as I bask in my glory, I could have been one of those heroes of the sky of WW2 I have read countless books about. <<


Well ummm. hmmmm ummmm - I know you are kidding right?
I slow on sarcasm :D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2004, 09:09:15 PM by TweetyBird »

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2004, 01:24:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 11dano11
Slapshot, I agree that some folks (ahem, on both sides) seem to take their positions on this debate awfully seriously, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting to land kills.  As you say, this is a game, and >THE GAME< rewards you for landing kills. It's part of the game.

It's not that it's a matter of life and death, it's just how my play style developed.  Landing kills = good, getting shot down = bad.  Way back in my early AW days I was really focused on my K/D.  Nowadays, I have no idea what my score is, how many perk points I have, how I am rated or anything else.  But I still play to land kills, and I still play as part of a team.

Why is that a problem for so many people?  After all, it's how the game was originally set up.  The truth is, it's the PURISTS who are NOT playing the game.


Dano buddie ... don't get me wrong. I love to land my kills just as much as the next guy does. I fly to live, but at the same time, I fly to fight.

Just tonight I was flying along all by myself and ran into a flight of 6 Typhoons ... I had a little alt on them ... got over the top of them ... did a split-s and went at them like there was no tomorrow ... 10 minutes later I killed 4 of the 6 and a friendly who just happened by got one and the last bugged out.

I chose to fight ... not run, because I knew, win or lose, I would fly with my hair on fire for as long as I could. Had I been timid and concerned with the 2 kills that I had before this encounter, I would have pulled up my slip and run back to my fellow countrymen and probably missed out on some of the best fights of the night.

Dano ... I have seen you fly, have flown with you, and I would not put you in the category of "timid" and "meek". You fly your P-51 correctly, but more importantly you fly it aggresively. Thats what separates you from the "turn-tail and run if I don't have an advantage" crowd.
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2004, 01:31:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
Exactamundo! AH has a very conprehensive scoring system and a not so comprehensive reward system. Flying realistically is not only reflected in this, but by virture of its very existence in the game, encouraged. Hitech didn't program all that in there to fill an idle Sunday afternoon instead of golfing, so obviously he made a decision to prefer realistic flying to any other as well.

I agree, fail to understand, but agree nonetheless, that a significant portion of the AH community gets some kind of feeling of moral victory engaging at a disadvantage, maybe killing a con or two before they themselves inevitably get killed. I myself get far more satisfaction and extract much more pleasure from the game, taking my time, setting up my kills, killing several, then landing them. It gives the game an almost role-playing aspect. I feel for a few moments as I bask in my glory, I could have been one of those heroes of the sky of WW2 I have read countless books about. There are no books written about the poor bastards that upped alone, purposefully got away from his buddies, got into a flat turn fight with the first enemy that he saw only to get bounced and die in a ball of fire. They just got buried and replaced.

Zazen


Zazen ... you were doing real good until you said ...

There are no books written about the poor bastards that upped alone, purposefully got away from his buddies, got into a flat turn fight with the first enemy that he saw only to get bounced and die in a ball of fire. They just got buried and replaced.

You have a bad case of myopia.

Like I said before, fly whatever it is that you fly so carefully and when you run into me in my Spit V, please expect nothing but flat turns from me ... it will only make your death that much quicker.

Get off your flat turn soapbox.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2004, 10:34:44 AM »
dano.... what would you do if the mustang were not available?   I think that it will come to that if the maps continue to make it so that only 4 or 5 planes have a chance.

they will have to seperate the eras somehow.   I don't really want that but think that the maps are too late war centric right now.   festers excellent map is a good example of comprimise..  it threw a bone to the furballers and early war planes.  

So what am i talking about?    far fields make it easier to spred out the fights so that the sky accountants can find early war planes alone... 25% fuel adds to this... the only plane you can fly with 24% fuel is the overused and uber mustang which can't dogfight,   the maps are designed for failure if you want variety.

as for the guys saying that flying low and slow makes us targets for them... well... never heard of those guys... they don't come down from their perch for me or slap... if they do they go right back up if they think we see em.

And yeah... mstly you do get killed in the furball by guys you never seen but... it is more that you lost track of them or you got to focused or your SA was overwhelmed.... big difference than from the sky accountants searching the nearly empty skies until they find a lower con who is away from his computer.

lazs

Offline thrila

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« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2004, 01:02:17 PM »
Quote
If you want to fly low and slow, flat break turning with the first red con you happen upon just be aware you are a ripe fruit begging to be plucked by everyone else who chooses not to fly this way



Zazen why do you have the impression that furballing only involves flat turning.  That is simply not the case.  ACM in a  furball is far more varied than bnzing from 25k can ever hope do.  Maybe if you tried flying lower and enter a furball maybe you would see that too.
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Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2004, 02:29:03 PM »
I know exactly what furballing is, I furball myself. Never did I mention the word furball in any of my posts. I am referring to the people who fly low, in slow turning planes that whine about people with altitude wacking them while otherwise engaged. In WW2, getting into a prolonged turnfight was a last resort for just that very reason, you are a sitting duck.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2004, 02:33:05 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2004, 02:37:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Zazen ... you were doing real good until you said ...

There are no books written about the poor bastards that upped alone, purposefully got away from his buddies, got into a flat turn fight with the first enemy that he saw only to get bounced and die in a ball of fire. They just got buried and replaced.

You have a bad case of myopia.

Like I said before, fly whatever it is that you fly so carefully and when you run into me in my Spit V, please expect nothing but flat turns from me ... it will only make your death that much quicker.

Get off your flat turn soapbox.


Actually Slapshot, I am sure you are a fine Spit5 pilot, but you prove my point, I looked up your last 10 camps, you have never had better than a 2 to 1 k/d ratio, and average just over 1 kill a hop. So, you are actually a fine example of someone who engages, takes out 1 enemy, maybe 2 if you are really having a good hop, then you die. Not exactly a record to go around chest thumping about, and certainly not one that is indicative of any especially intelligent employment of tactics.

The only reason I use the flat turn as an example is because it is what most turn fights devolve into eventually once both the combatants E is expended. Of course in the initial phases when E states are relatively high there are various other ACM's that may be employed. But, provided neither of the combatants die in the initial phases, most turnfights devolve into a full flap merry-go-round at stall speeds on the deck, with both adversaries questing to pull lead for a brief moment for a shot. So, even if you win, you are in an incredibly disadvantageous position if there are any other enemy about, which is almost guarenteed in the MA.


Zazen
« Last Edit: January 24, 2004, 02:56:54 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2004, 03:11:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
Actually Slapshot, I am sure you are a fine Spit5 pilot, but you prove my point, I looked up your last 10 camps, you have never had better than a 2 to 1 k/d ratio, and average just over 1 kill a hop. So, you are actually a fine example of someone who engages, takes out 1 enemy, maybe 2 if you are really having a good hop, then you die. Not exactly a record to go around chest thumping about, and certainly not one that is indicative of any especially intelligent employment of tactics.
[/B]

I'm curious exactly how I would prove your point.  Give it a shot.

Furballing is far more than flatturning.  It's a situational awareness workout.  Surviving such an engagement, should one choose to do so, requires the utmost in plane performance, ACM skill, application of situational awareness, gunnery, and even some luck.  It is certainly no more or less "intelligent" than any other way of flying; less safe, perhaps, but it stresses other abilities and interests than flying to live.

They are different.  Neither is better.

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Offline nopoop

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« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2004, 05:07:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
a significant portion of the AH community gets some kind of feeling of moral victory engaging at a disadvantage, maybe killing a con or two before they themselves inevitably get killed
Zazen


As aways when this discussion comes up, I'm always interested in the flying habits of those of an opposing view to see if by examining their flying habits their comments on flying and dying have any validity.

One day after doing this research on a pilot I'm going to be surprised. Today is not the day.

Zazen when you DO go for a flight, it lasts an average of 31 minutes, it's in a tiffy. You don't fly much else when you decide to fly..



Looking back as far as July you had 5 kills and 2 deaths in a Hurri and 1 kill and 1 death in a FM2.

You don't have any idea of what we are talking about because you haven't done it..probably ever.  It doesn't make the K/D pretty in the majority of cases.

I doubt you'd give it up..

Do one in the weeds, then you'll have something to say.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2004, 06:14:45 PM by nopoop »
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Offline sax

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« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2004, 06:12:09 PM »
The good pilots don't go around thumping chests. Everyone knows who they are and regardless off stats respect their ability. If they beat you and you tried or you beat them straight up you'll never here a whine or excuse just a Salute.
And the really good ones or those that want to improve hang around the fight till its done cause pixel death don't hurt.

Your style is fine and it's your 14.95 and no one can stop anyone from doin thier thing--but when you make statements about how much better it is than someone elses it would help if your prepared to back it up with your plane not your keyboard.
 
Slap made ya an offer to prove yourself and all your doing is strutting your stuff in print.
Although it does seems MetaMouthing on the BBS seems to be the best way to display talent now-a-days.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2004, 06:22:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
they will have to seperate the eras somehow.   I don't really want that but think that the maps are too late war centric right now.  
I think Lazs is coming round to the idea of an RPS. :aok:D

Interesting posts by all. I can see where everyone is coming from. I'm a land-the-kills guy myself. I generally fly at a disadvantage in the MA because I fly alone and don't fly the planes I'm most likely to run into - P51/LA7/Spit ix/N1K/TYPH.

I'm fascinated by the way some talented and experienced AH hotshots persist with the Spit V. That was the first plane I learned to fly upon entering FlightSimdom c1998, and once I'd learned the basics, I was encouraged to move on to something else which did not have training wheels.

I've seen some films of guys flying the Spit V in AH, and it's so unrealistic and gamey in some instances that I might as well be watching an arcade game. Now DMF has been up front, and said that AH is nothing more than a game, so I can't fault him. But I've been doing my own offline tests with the Spit V, and found that I could make a 180° turn in about 6-7 seconds, starting from 240mph (slightly below corner speed) and finishing at 200mph. To do this, I was pulling 6G! But I could do it without blacking out, and without even greying out. That can't be right. How many 6G turns could a real pilot withstand, without a G suit, before he collapsed from exhaustion? Added to that, we have the gamey 8-way view hat switch, which some people stir around as if they had a double jointed thumb. Not plausible for a real pilot - especially not the Linda Blair view. And then comes the masterstroke. Spit V has con on 6, pulls a 6G turn out to the side, con overshoots, Spit pulls back in and lines up a 500 yard shot - unadulterated BS. Yeah, it may be fun and all that, but it's got bugger all to do with WW2, in which I doubt that any of those things could be achieved. So what does this prove? That someone would have been a WW2 Spit V hotshot? Hardly. The only thing it shows is how good someone is at exploiting the game attributes to be good at Aces High.

Now some of us might like to seek a deeper immersion - imagine how a plane like a P47, for example, might have been used in WW2. And I can't see anything wrong with folks who want to do that. I've read Gabreski's book, and it becomes clear that few if any of the 36 guys he shot down ever saw him. He used different techniques - speed and surprise much of the time. But try that in AH, and we have the wailing and gnashing of teeth - waah - alt monkeys, sky accountants etc. - when all those guys are doing is flying the way they want to fly. But that seems to give certain people a problem. Did someone say "purists"? ;)

So I think it's a bit rich for the Spit V (and others) band of master turn fighters to denounce someone elses "timid" gameplay, when they themselves rely on gaminess to the nth degree.

Offline nopoop

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« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2004, 06:32:56 PM »
Aw beet that is a biggest bowl of crap you've served in awhile.

YOU do a tour in the Spitty 5 and then PLEASE post a film of how gamey it is..

I'm looking forward to it. Beet down in the weeds with everyone diving on him...doing those gamey reverses and dropping them one by one..

Beet, I'll watch that film !!

And when I've seen you do it, kill the 5 or 6 that were above you when you couldn't egress.. and you took names ??

Next tour, how bout it ?? I'll never argue with you again.

Just let me watch THAT film.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2004, 06:40:38 PM »
Nopoop - better still, YOU provide me with WW2 footage of Spit V pilots making those 6G turns over and over and over and over and...  YOU provide me with WW2 film of a Spit V nailing guys at 500, 600 yards (or more) over and over and over and over...

What purpose would a down in the weeds film provide? That I can game the game in a virtual Spit V? Talk to someone who gives a crap.

Offline nopoop

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« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2004, 07:01:33 PM »
Wait, fogitabotit, I understand now.

THIS week you got your bellybutton handed to you by a Spit V..

SHOW ME THAT  FILM !!

I forgot what killed you last week that you went on an on about.

Buck up.

500 is 300 on the spittys FE that ruined your week. He prolly suckered you and you bit. That's the best.

Amazing how when I get killed I know it was my fault in each and every case, but with you it's always for some other reason.
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight..