so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)

[ramzey]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You were expecting help from 1939 France? Come on.. They couldnt even help themslves with 8 extra months to prepare and fighting on their home soil..

Yes, 1944 was fcked up, but blame the commies for that, the allies couldnt have done much at that time.

Grun , come on,you are smart guy

russians are not only one side responcible about uprising failure
they stand back beucose Poland was given to them by agreement with Roosvelt. And since then it was "russina zone"
And rest of allies just stand and watch.
Ots BS allies could do nothing more, they just dont lik to do anything
Rememer, when in london was victory parade, Poles where not invited.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by ramzey
Grun , come on,you are smart guy

russians are not only one side responcible about uprising failure
they stand back beucose Poland was given to them by agreement with Roosvelt. And since then it was "russina zone"
And rest of allies just stand and watch.
Ots BS allies could do nothing more, they just dont lik to do anything
Rememer, when in london was victory parade, Poles where not invited.

Some questions:

Ramzey when did the 44 warsaw uprising take place?

What were the western allies doing at that time?

Where were they doing it?

Where was warsaw?

What was in between warsaw and the answer to question #3?

What could western allies have done in this situatioon?


Some more questions:

Where was the Russian army during the warsaw uprising in 44?

What were they doing there?

What was beetween that place and warsaw?

What could the russians have done in thisc situation?

[ramzey]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm confused by this thread too.

Look its true the French let you down bigtime in the early weeks of September 1939. But thats the French military in 1939/40 for you, not much good to anyone at taht time.

I'm not sure what you wanted the western allies to do in the fall 44 warsaw uprising. By that time the US, UK, Free Polish, commonwealth and Free French were all fighting in France, the low countries and italy. They were engaged in fierce combat with the germans and all of germany stood between them and warsaw.

In your mind, what could have they done? What would you have wanted them to do?

Grun , main reason for warsaw uprising was show the world about selling us for russians. Beucose ther "grates" of the world US and USRR divide europe and mark their zones.
Stallin like to have Poland inside his zone and Roosvelt give this country to him.
Uprising was against "big brothers" who decide what is good or bad for small countries.
Was obvious from begining, without help from outside uprising have no chances.
British, Canadian, S.Africans pilots voluntier to drop suppies for us. But i never heard about USAF planes  or USAF pilots giving help for fighting warsaw. Guesss why they where order not to fly there;) to not piss of uncle Stalin

[bikekil]

Originally posted by ramzey
are you drunk?

Ramzey arrived and since now things went personal... again

Nope, not driunked, bu may i ask you - are you dumb?


When i find more time i will seach the O'Club for a previous threads about the IX.1939. there is no need to wride the same things many many times so i will link the thread to this one.

As this thread is about the Uprising.

[GRUNHERZ]

So the Poles attacked the German Army because they were upset that the USA president gave Poland to the Soviet dictator Stalin?

That makes no sense at all...

[ramzey]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Some questions:

Ramzey when did the 44 warsaw uprising take place?

you post about something and not know when its was?

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What could the russians have done in thisc situation?

give aircover,support by artillery strike, cut supplies lines by airstrike

Dont play with me about military situation and geography issues
Its all about politics , not military. Western allies dont like to help much to not piss off russians. Beucose agreement say Poland will be in russian zone. If Allies like to help , their will finde way. By politicall pressure  and other solution about borders will help.

[ramzey]

Originally posted by bikekil
Ramzey arrived and since now things went personal... again

Nope, not driunked, bu may i ask you - are you dumb?


When i find more time i will seach the O'Club for a previous threads about the IX.1939. there is no need to wride the same things many many times so i will link the thread to this one.

As this thread is about the Uprising.

i was just courius ;-)

Look at this from logistic point of view( wider ), not by your feelings or propaganda.
Western countries was not redy for war, same as we where not.
Same as russinas was still not ready to fight with germans in 1941.
If you think sending troops within couple days was possible, you are so wrong

[ramzey]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So the Poles attacked the German Army because they were upset that the USA president gave Poland to the Soviet dictator Stalin?

That makes no sense at all...

im not say it was smart
im not saying uprising have chance to win
im not saying allies do all what they can to help

im saying they have no other choice to say to the world we where berayted

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by ramzey
im not say it was smart
im not saying uprising have chance to win
im not saying allies do all what they can to help

im saying they have no other choice to say to the world we where berayted

That still makes absolutely no sense.  

Hey Piotr, those bastard Americans sold us out to the Russians!!!!

Damn right Stanislaw, I'm pissed! I hate the Russians! Let's get even with the russians and americans by attacking the germans!

Great idea Piotr!! Lets go!

It doesnt work for me ramzey...


What do yoiu want western allies to do?  Bomb Warsaw from 25,000 feet? Fly slow transports across 1/4 of occupied france, all of nazi germany, and 3/4 of occupied Poland to drop supplies into a city during street to street fighting?

The russians were right acrosss the damn river and they did nothing. Be angry at them.

[Pei]

Originally posted by Octavius
A small time frame did exist.  France/GB had a much larger capacity to wage war.  Their economy had much more depth than width (not a whole lot of bite, but an ability to weather the storm for a much longer period).  Germany had more width (stockpiled weapons/resources for quick bursts of engagements).  But that was only one reason.

As a general rule, going on the experience of the first world war, France and GB saw the attacking force would lose twice as many men/resources..  A defensive, passive stance for the allies would set the tone for the the early years of the war.  This was coupled with the sheer unwillingness to fight.  "An entire generation lost" 25~ years prior... it was still fresh in their minds.

[edit]:  oy, like bike said, 1939 or 1944?[/edit]

The reluctance to fight had gone by '39. The problem was neither country was really in any state to wage war (especially Britain). The UK had only started re-armament slowly in 1938 after years of neglect. It is possible that swift action while the Wehrmacht was concentrating on Poland might have brought a swift peace but considering the disasters of the summer of 1940 I rather doubt  anything could have been achieved a year earlier.

As to sending the Polish brigades to Warsaw the RAF and the USAAF didn't have the capacity to send such large forces by air over long distances (and through heavily defended air space). It might have been possible to airlift a few battalions by converting some of the large bombers but there wasn't time for it and it would have required the co-operation of the USSR which wasn't willing to countenance any such move.

Consider for a moment how close many of the Para drops over Normandy got to disaster: that was much closer to base (less than 200km), with much more ground support, over open countryside after months of planning and practice, and with much more reconnaisance.

What happened to Poland was terrible but there was no way for the Western Allies to prevent it. Only Russia could have done anything and it didn't want to. Agreeing to Russian dominance in Eastern Europe wasn't what either Chruchill or Roosevelt wanted it was just fait accompli: the Red Army was already there with millions of men under arms. The only alternative was war with Stalin which (if it had even been possible considering the strain of all those years of warfare had created) would have led to yet more years of bloody warfare.

Without Russian help the Warsaw Rising was doomed. Without the Germans there would have been no-one to rise against. But it's the Western Allies you are bitter with?

[bikekil]

What should be done?

1) Allies should send here our paratroopers.
2) If our paratroopers could be sent here - why any other paratroopers coun d not? DOn't tell me none was avaliable.
3)  Allies could provide us the supplies (madications and the ammo) and i don't mean a very few flights.
4) Decision of founding a British Military Mission (my translation) in Warsaw were put on hold because Brits were waiting till Soviets say his opinion about it (!!!) Colonel Gubbins, boss of Special Operations Executive has left to the Southern France and been back after 3 months. SOE, that by the whole world were using Polish secrat service agents in many many countries, SOE who said it's positive opinion about the uprising, in the moment of the action, failed Poland
5) at 04.08.1944 Churchill sent a telegram to Stalin. He assued that "both sides will be mature" and offered some Polish  lands for Soviets and Sovied represenataives in a Polish goverment. In exchange Soviets could help... but Staling's answer was, the informatiuon that Poland gave are fake and there are only few man fighting... aka there is no need to help and nothing serious going on.
6) Polish nagotiations with soviets in Moscow failed because of LACK OF BRITISH SUPPORT ( i mean political support... because noone there cared much?)


That's at least what could be done or done better for your Allies.

[bikekil]

Ok... maybe that way

Poaldn had it's giverment in UK during the war. Unfortunatelly Soviets format another Polish (communistic) goverment, as you can expect competitive to the right one.

Because Poland (i mean the Polish goverment and people) knew that Stalin is willing to slave us, the uprising was planned ( and that plans were supproted by the Breits).
Uprising was meant to stronger the Polish goverment's position in negotiations with Stalin and have a chance to have a FREE Poland after the War.
I hope you got it - in AK (a free Poland army) welcomed russian arly in free Warsaw, Stali coulnd not save that ha saved us right? Or at lease his position as a frtiend of Poland would not be so strong.

Of course it explains why he was interested in NOT HELPING anyone out there... is the uprising is over, he could just enter the Warsaw and take the credit.

Now, why Allies were interested in uprising to continue? Because they were racing to Berlin... accidently the longer Sovits were holding their army in  the borders of Warsaw, the more time the (so called) Allies had to get the Berlin = the stronger position in "after war" negotiations with Stalin they have.

So we already know why  Allies supported the uprising but not that hard... not hard anought to let the upriserd win or something... hard enought to let it be a week... or two weeks more... while moving his own ovensive to Berlin and playing it's own game.

simply, we were used.

Is it clear enought? or maybe there is anything wrong in what i typed?

[ramzey]

Grun, warsaw uprising is very complicated case
many historians write many book about it  and they never agree with each other.
Theoretical main reason for warsaw uprising was request from germans to give them 120.000 workers to build fortification on vistula line. It was obvious noone of them will back alive.
Russians forces was closing to warsaw(couple km) and theoretical ot was good time to liberate capitol city and open way for russion troops for western poland (bridges).

But, our HQ in London have false view for our homeland army.
And like to show western allies, "we wil not give up" country for commies. If they can capture and hold capitol city, they will be able to establish not communistic gov. ( week earlier russion establish temporary goverment in Lublin)

Most of units fighting in warsaw where guys without traning. As you know trained souldier with expirience is more wort then squad of noobs.
Secound bad thing was lack of weapon and supplies.
Third was no suprise for germans. Somone betreyd and germans know about uprising

Due that reasons in first day homeland army not achive objectives. Not held main strategic points and not capture bridges. If they wil have luck that would help them best.

Many supplies drop by allies was loaded by practice ammunition and uniforms. Not guns and amno
Experts consider droping brigade of polish paras close to warsaw to help fighting city. It will be mistake and lost of another lifes.

Personal i not agree with decision to start fight in this time and place due poor chances to win. Im not angry at allies or russians about what they do or not do.
Its again regular people fighting for bigger ideas for somone else.

Thats why allways i will be with all thos peoples who died in fight.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by bikekil
What should be done?

1) Allies should send here our paratroopers.
2) If our paratroopers could be sent here - why any other paratroopers coun d not? DOn't tell me none was avaliable.
3)  Allies could provide us the supplies (madications and the ammo) and i don't mean a very few flights.
4) Decision of founding a British Military Mission (my translation) in Warsaw were put on hold because Brits were waiting till Soviets say his opinion about it (!!!) Colonel Gubbins, boss of Special Operations Executive has left to the Southern France and been back after 3 months. SOE, that by the whole world were using Polish secrat service agents in many many countries, SOE who said it's positive opinion about the uprising, in the moment of the action, failed Poland
5) at 04.08.1944 Churchill sent a telegram to Stalin. He assued that "both sides will be mature" and offered some Polish  lands for Soviets and Sovied represenataives in a Polish goverment. In exchange Soviets could help... but Staling's answer was, the informatiuon that Poland gave are fake and there are only few man fighting... aka there is no need to help and nothing serious going on.
6) Polish nagotiations with soviets in Moscow failed because of LACK OF BRITISH SUPPORT ( i mean political support... because noone there cared much?)


That's at least what could be done or done better for your Allies.

So basically you wanted the allies to stage a continous series of transport flights across occupied france, nazi germany, and occupied poland and drop these supplies into the middle of one hotly contested city, sorrounded by the germans and cris crossed with house to house fighting. Moreover you want all this done in the late summer of 1944 when the aforementied forces are fighting huge units of the germany army in France and Italy..

Ramzey was right, you must be drunk...

So again, plese feel free to blame Stalin for all this. His army was right across the Vistula and they did nothing but sit there with their thumbs up their butts...

[Pei]

Originally posted by bikekil
What should be done?

1) Allies should send here our paratroopers.
2) If our paratroopers could be sent here - why any other paratroopers coun d not? DOn't tell me none was avaliable.
3)  Allies could provide us the supplies (madications and the ammo) and i don't mean a very few flights.
4) Decision of founding a British Military Mission (my translation) in Warsaw were put on hold because Brits were waiting till Soviets say his opinion about it (!!!) Colonel Gubbins, boss of Special Operations Executive has left to the Southern France and been back after 3 months. SOE, that by the whole world were using Polish secrat service agents in many many countries, SOE who said it's positive opinion about the uprising, in the moment of the action, failed Poland
5) at 04.08.1944 Churchill sent a telegram to Stalin. He assued that "both sides will be mature" and offered some Polish  lands for Soviets and Sovied represenataives in a Polish goverment. In exchange Soviets could help... but Staling's answer was, the informatiuon that Poland gave are fake and there are only few man fighting... aka there is no need to help and nothing serious going on.
6) Polish nagotiations with soviets in Moscow failed because of LACK OF BRITISH SUPPORT ( i mean political support... because noone there cared much?)


That's at least what could be done or done better for your Allies.

1) No real number of troops or supplies  could be sent because the allies (and anyone else for that matter) did not have the long range transport capacity even if it had been a practical option (most of the supplies that were dropped came down in German controlled areas or were lost or damaged due to dropping in built up areas: how do you think troops would have fared?). What few drops that could have been made would have require dshuttle runs via Soviet controlled airfields which Stalin refused.

2) The negotiations with Stalin failed because neither side was prepared to compromise. Chruchill repeatedly urged the Poles to come to terms because he knew that Stalin wanted the eastern parts of Poland and that he wouldn't give them up (and he had the largest army on earth already on the territory to enforce his wishes).  British and US policy was to try and get the Goverment in Exile to accept some extremely unpalatable compromises so that Stalin would let it assume control of Poland and keep Poland independant. What they feared most (apart from war with the USSR) was that by failing to compromise the Poles would encourage Stalin to completely ignore the Goverment in Exile and replace it with the puppets in the Lublin Goverment (which was in fact what occurred). Could the western powers have got more for the Poles? Possibly but they felt it was much better to avoid supporting a lost cause than to lose that which could still have been saved (for example Greece and to a lesser extent the Balkans): Churchill was convinced that if the USSR gained control in the eastern med. that communisn would spread through Italy and westwards.

Waht happened to Poland was terrible, but to suggest anything of a practical nature could have been done by anyone apart from Stalin is a pipe dream of the highest order. Poland like other smaller nations bother before and since got screwed by realpolitik. A truly altruistic country (if there ever been any) might have tried to do more at huge risk but the true blame for the events in Warsaw lays with the Germans and the Russians.