Evidence for life on Mars

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by storch
that is my very point, they don't and it's not.

And you are wrong... a trifecta.

[Siaf__csf]

do you know that the phophesies made in the Bible are 100% inerrant?

According to this link they're not. Again something that you can easily verify using your own bible.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Heh, the good thing about Bible is that you can open it up and verify every point made in the 'blog' as you call it. I dare you to do it.

It's interesting that you call the website of 'the center for the study of complex systems' the national inquirer or star magazine.



You actually claimed that the flood theory was backed up by science. By that I guess you refer to the ice age and the resulting flooding. There's only one problem with that - the timeperiods don't match even by far. It's all covered also in the White writing. Please read it before you attack me.

What I see here is sudden panic and a resulting character attack when you suddenly realize you have no counter arguments to give as the text I provided was very thorough. Denial has been also characteristic through the history of theology. Nothing new there.

The 'how about' part was just an attempt to turn the discussion over to force you to think the issue in an irregular way. Break out the learned pattern and use your own brain for a change.



I can see how an 8 year old can think that way. You however should have progressed from that level.

If I can provide you with blatant inconsistencies and paradoxes in the scripture you're basing your faith on, doesn't that make you at least think and do research or is the blind faith still overcoming reason?

The comments like 'look at the birds and the trees, how can it be' sounds unbelievably naive and outright childish to me. It proves that the said person never questioned anything he was religiously taught in his life. Or simply just couldn't think complex enough.


http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/White/

Please read it.

I was referring to OUR debate and this link in particular
http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/flood.html

And that text was nothing more then a blog
No panic here at all. I have provided plenty of "counterarguements" and easily debunked your points  half the time nothing more then common sense and general common knowledge in our debate. You were the one not providing anything even remotely resembling logic and saying "the carnivores would eat the other animals" repeatedly is not what I consider a logical argument.  Trying to disguise it now by saying it was an attempt to make me "think for myself" is pure BS and you, I, and everyone here knows it.

If you paid attention to what I wrote you would see I was thinking for myself and exploring all possibilities including the possibility the story of the Ark is true at least in part.

As for my 8 year old. Even she could tell you that if you wanted to gather Carnivorous and therefore dangerous animals without risk to yourself or other animals that you might want to get the young ones. Its safer both to you and the other animals, Takes up less space and requires less food to maintain.

I have also maintained that it is possible and probable that not the entire globe was flooded.
But just for chuckles to provide at random a counter link for you..
Evidence of a worldwide flood
"Another recent discovery that could have a relation to the inundation of the Gulf of Mexico is the finding by geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman of the sudden flooding of the Black Sea basin around 6,000 to 7,000 years ago (according to their dating). "The salt water," says Smithsonian magazine, "poured through the deepening channel, creating a waterfall 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls. In a single day enough water came through the channel to cover Manhattan to a depth two times the height of the [former] World Trade Center, and the roar of the cascading water would have been audible at least 100 miles away"

You can provide all the inconsistencies you want and probably get me to agree with you on many of them without any argument whatsoever.

I dont base  my thoughts on faith, or the bible, or science alone but I do as I have said see how both can coincide with one another on many issues. I have also put down  and described the Bible as being "vague, mistranslated  and incomplete". Just as science often is.


I also believe it is not 100% accurate or for that matter truthful.
If I did I'd insist the moon generates its own light.

I am not going by blind faith but by reason, logic and taking into consideration all possibilities.
You on the other hand refuse to see any other possibility other then the black or white view you have. Just by that accusation tells me you have not an iota of a clue what my "faith" is

As for attacking your character.
One has to have character before it can be attacked.
I haven't seen any evidence of that thusfar

I only see someone who insist on viewing things through a stationary and narrow tube and not seeing anything outside that tube refuses to believe other things could possibly exist.

Very much like the Roman Church and many bible thumpers used to and still do to a certain extent.

[Siaf__csf]

© 2003-2005 United Church of God • Portland Oregon

there was a major period of flooding from 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, with a peak about 11,600 years ago.

4,300 years described in the Bible as the time of the biblical Flood.

There's inconsistencies even in that very short text - i.e. people find evidence which they alter according to thier own religious needs.

[vorticon]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
According to this link they're not. Again something that you can easily verify using your own bible.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

they constantly repeat themselves...at the start they make there point, and all the supporting verses in one go, later they start giving each supporting verse its own number

[Leslie]

Darwinian evolution is impossible.  It would take 12 billion years for the simplest microbe to form under laboratory conditions.  What makes you think life was spontanious?  How did life start, after all that is the unknown factor, though academic scientists can't answer that question.  Even the co-founder of Darwinian evolution, Alfred Russel Wallace, acknowledged a Creator.  




Les

[storch]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
According to this link they're not. Again something that you can easily verify using your own bible.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

 did adam die?  prophesy fulfilled. death begins at birth since the fall of man.   so go the rest of those examples.  fools clutching at straws in order to deny the existance of the creator. they need to have their own will be supreme as opposed to submitting to the will of the creator.  age old story with many twists but a stark ending.

I don't need to look up Mr. White.  his paper is required reading for anyone interested in apologetics.  anyway this doesn't work face to face and it doesn't work on the internet either.  I gave it up face to face long ago and I suppose I'll give it up here as well.  for what ever reason you and millions of others have decided to flippantly dismiss the cure to what ails all of mankind.  that you and others don't believe doesn't mean you are right (see Mr. White).

the thing is this.  I'm 100% certain that what the Bible teaches (and the entire volume points to it) about our relationship with the creator is real.  therefore when my day to stand before the creator arrives I don't need to pay my bill.  Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior has picked up my tab.  How will you pay for yours I wonder?  I hope for your sake that you are correct and that I'm wrong.

[Siaf__csf]

It would take 12 billion years for the simplest microbe to form under laboratory conditions. What makes you think life was spontanious?

the generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar system is about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%). This value is derived from several different lines of evidence.

With the same logic drediocks website used to explain a few thousand years error in radiometric dating, the earth could aswell be 20 billion years old (if indeed radiometric timing is no longer accurate after 4000 years as was claimed by the church in your link. Don't say now that the link you just posted wasn't credible.

[Siaf__csf]

fools clutching at straws in order to deny the existance of the creator.

Pick a random spot and prove it inaccurate.

therefore when my day to stand before the creator arrives I don't need to pay my bill.

I thought it was called the judgement day. Are you saying you can do whatever you wish as long as you believe?

It speaks volumes that you don't either dare or bother to read the extremely interesting analysis of history by Mr.White.

That is again a proof that you're not interested in the truth.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Leslie
Darwinian evolution is impossible.  It would take 12 billion years for the simplest microbe to form under laboratory conditions.  What makes you think life was spontanious?  How did life start, after all that is the unknown factor, though academic scientists can't answer that question.  Even the co-founder of Darwinian evolution, Alfred Russel Wallace, acknowledged a Creator.  




Les

Silly math Leslie..

What are the chances that I would meet someone named leslie on the web? If you take the same random event hypothesis the chances are:

26*26*26*26*26*26

or 1 in 308,915,776 if the internet were invented the day I was born, and I were to meet someone new every day it would take me 846,344 years to meet you. Clearly this is impossible and you don't exist.

sorry.

[Siaf__csf]

False Prophecies, Broken Promises, and Misquotes in the Bible

The prophets prophesy lies in my name.--Jer.14:14

      Genesis

   1. God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17

   2. As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond. 4:12

   3. God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14

   4. How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Ex.12:40 and Gal.3:17 say 430 years. 15:13

   5. "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Issac (Gen.21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen.35:22-23), Kohath (Ex.6:16), Amramn (Ex.6:18), and Moses (Ex.6:20). 15:16

   6. God promises Abram's descendants the land of Canaan from the Nile to the Euphrates. But according to Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13 God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 15:18

   7. God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 26:4

   8. God renames Jacob twice (32:28, 35:10 ). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway (47:28-29). And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10

   9. God calls Jacob Jacob, though he said in Gen.32:28 and 35:10 that he would no longer be called Jacob but Israel. 46:2

  10. The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10 God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3

  11. Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24
      Exodus

  12. God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 33:2

  13. In this verse God says he will write on the stone tablets, but in 34:27 he tells Moses to do the writing. 34:1
      Deuteronomy

  14. God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 7:1

  15. God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But according to Joshua ( 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13) and Judges (1:21, 27-36, 3:1-5) there were some people they just couldn't kill. 7:24

  16. Those who do as God says will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. 7:14-15

  17. Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5

  18. False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah's Witnesses!) 18:20

  19. God promises to "destroy these nations before thee." That he didn't keep his promise see Jos.15:63, 16:10, Jg.1:21, 1:27-36, and 3:1-5. 31:3-6
      Joshua

  20. God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5

  21. Joshua tells the Israelites that God will "without fail" drive out the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But later, the Bible tells us that he could not drive them out. 3:10

  22. This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity. 8:28

  23. God promised the Israelites that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they pass through. But this verse shows that he didn't keep his promise since he couldn't drive out the Jebusites. 15:63

  24. "And they drave not out the Canaanites." Once again God fails keep his promise to destroy all the people the Israelites encounter. 16:10

  25. The Israelites, contrary to God's promises to them, could not drive out the Canaanites. 17:12-13

  26. Joshua tells Manasseh that he will be able to drive out the Canaanites, but it turns out (see Jg.1:27-28) that he couldn't do it. 17:17-18

  27. According to these verses, God fulfilled his promise to give the Israelites all of the lands that they encountered. But in several places the Bible tells us that these promises were not kept. 21:43-45
      Judges

  28. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 1:21, 27-30

  29. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 3:1-5
      2 Samuel

  30. God says that Solomon's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16
      1 Kings

  31. God puts a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his prophets. 22:22
      2 Kings

  32. God promises Josiah that he will have a peaceful death. But Josiah's death was anything but peaceful. (2 Kg.23:29-30, 2 Chr.35:23-24) 22:20

  33. In Jeremiah (34:4) God tells Zedekiah that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But this verse and Jer.52:10-11 say that he died a violent death in a foreign land. 25:7
      2 Chronicles

  34. That Solomon was the wisest and richest king to ever live is undoubtedly an exaggeration. Therefore it is also a false prophecy. 1:12

  35. God puts lies into the mouths of his prophets and speaks evil about people. 18:21-22

  36. Josiah died from an arrow wound in battle, not "in peace" as is promised in 2 Kg.22:20. 35:23
      Psalms

  37. Misquoted in Heb.10:5-6. 40:6

  38. Misquoted in Mt.13:35. 78:2-3

  39. "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 89:3-4, 34-37
      Isaiah

  40. God told Isaiah to tell Ahaz, the King of Judah, not to be concerned about Rezin (the king of Syria) or Pekah (the king of Israel). But according to 2 Chr.28:5-6 "God delivered him [Ahaz] into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter." 7:5

  41. The King James Version mistranslates the Hebrew word "almah", which means "young woman" as "virgin". (The Hebrew word, "bethulah", means "virgin".) In addition, the young woman referred to in this verse was living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 7:14

  42. These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20

  43. This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1

  44. The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5

  45. This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18

  46. These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21

  47. These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists. 19:23-24


  48. "The priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink." You can't even trust a drunken prophet anymore. 28:7

  49. Misquoted in Rom.9:33. 28:16

  50. "The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now. 30:26

  51. "Henceforth there shall no more come into thee [Jerusalem] the uncircumcised and the unclean." But many uncircumcised people have visited and occupied Jerusalem after this prophecy was made. 52:1

  52. Nations that do not serve Israel will perish. 60:12
      Jeremiah

  53. Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17

  54. Apparently, prophets that preach good news and tidings anger God. So he will kill them. 5:12-13

  55. "The prophets prophesy falsely." Unfortunately, we're not told how to differentiate between the true and false prophets. 5:31

That's less than 1/3 of the false prophesies as listed at http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

[storch]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Pick a random spot and prove it inaccurate.

 

I thought it was called the judgement day. Are you saying you can do whatever you wish as long as you believe?

er.... I did. the very first one.

I'm not sure about the whole judgement day thing.  My sins, past and future are forgiven.  can I do whatever I want?  why ...YES!!! of course I can.  But I have a little friend, or wait it is it a big friend? well let's see.  he occupies the whole of the universe but yet he indwells my heart.  so which is it?  part of that indwelling is that day by day I improve in my relationship with him, so that while I'm still a sinner it is less so.  my biggest sin at this point I think is in my relationship with other people which I am to love across the board, warts and all.  I don't.  I'm rather ashamed to admit that but it's true.  The holy spirit is still working within me.  maybe one day I'll care whether you do finally enter into an eternal relationship with that creator which you deny.  but as it stands currently, honestly I don't.  terrible.  simply terrible.  that puts me the very worst category of all Christians types.  That is cause to wonder whether I'm really a Christian at all.  I'm trying to care but sadly I don't.

[Leslie]

I'm honored you would wait that long to meet me MT.  Nice to see you again.





Les

[Siaf__csf]

Heh Storch it's disappointing to see that you fail to fulfill the role you put yourself into.

Then to quotes:

As for my 8 year old. Even she could tell you that if you wanted to gather Carnivorous and therefore dangerous animals without risk to yourself or other animals that you might want to get the young ones. Its safer both to you and the other animals, Takes up less space and requires less food to maintain.

For an 8 year old it's natural to be naive. A child can easily think that you can have a family of what, 12-24 people grouping several _thousands_ of species together, let alone raising them up which means nurturing them. Let's see. Let's give you a benefit of a doubt and say there's 1000 people in Noah's family and there were space for everyone in the ark.

If we take the most optimistic timescene presented in the Bible (40 nights/days opposed to 150) and we calculate these 1000 people would need a rashion of 100 grams of food and 200 grams of fresh water per day. Animals not included. That would mean they'd have to stack 4 tons of food and 8 tons of water for the people alone for the duration of the trip. No, people do not hibernate if that was your next suggestion. That's quite a chunk of food 4000 years ago btw.

If they had the very optimistic 1000 people and had to raise even 60 000 different species of animals from scratch, they'd have to build barns for roughly at least third of them to contain natural tendencies to eat eachothers. They would have 0,4 hours of time each day to care an individual species of animal. During that time they'd have to feed them, clean the barn etc. while at the same time start a functional agriculture, build housing for the people etc. Naturally they don't have 24 hours per day as I calculated in the example but let's not let that bother at this point.

If we're again optimistic and think that you could somehow take care and grow up such a number of animals it would take from a couple days to 10 years before the animals could reproduce. Since animal population grows exponentially compared to human reproduction rate the workload would become all the more impossible as the animal population would double. At that time we're at two males, two females situation. A pessimist would say that animals rarely even breed in captivity, but let's leave that too out of the equation.

Considering a survivable population in habitable enviroment (which earth after massive flood obviously wasn't) would b e in 1000 range or more.. Just face it.

[vorticon]

"If we take the most optimistic timescene presented in the Bible (40 nights/days opposed to 150) and we calculate these 1000 people would need a rashion of 100 grams of food and 200 grams of fresh water per day. Animals not included. That would mean they'd have to stack 4 tons of food and 8 tons of water for the people alone for the duration of the trip. No, people do not hibernate if that was your next suggestion. That's quite a chunk of food 4000 years ago btw. "

rainwater is drinkable...the people can eat fish (yeah, fishing was pretty big back then)