I don't think this will be in "The Armed Citizen"

[Pongo]

Originally posted by Elfie
Pongo do you have a reference for that? Would be an interesting read imo.

it would be indistinguishable.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Curval
elfie,

I don't doubt what you say is true...in AMERICA.

Here, we have no, or very very very few incidents of, gun crimes.  

What would happen if guns were made legal and easily availiable here in your opinion?

Do you honestly think that there would be less crime overall?

Do you think that an increase in gun crime and gun related accidents and injuries would result also?

If so, is this a reasonable trade off?

Less robberies, more death?

Please try and think outside your normal way of thinking on this issue for just a couple of minutes and answer honestly.

1) Are you trying to tell me there is a difference between the Bahamas and Bermuda?  

2) If guns were made legal in the Bahamas, errr I mean Bermuda I have no idea what would happen there. Some countries like Switzerland and Canada have a higher percentage of gun ownership than the US does, yet they have lower crime rates. Higher or lower crime rates really depend on your society.

3) Most likely there would be lower crime. At least as far as violent crime goes. Criminals dont seem to want to mess with potentially armed citizens. I gave an account in another thread where I used a revolver to deter a criminal from entering my window at night.

4) Of course there would be an increase in gun crime. Criminals that would now brandish a knife or other weapon would instead get a gun. Accidents and injuries? We're talking about humans here, humans make mistakes...every last one of us does. Accidents can be kept to a minimum with appropriate gun safety education.

5) Reasonable trade off? Maybe not for Bermuda. I'm not current on your crime rates so it is difficult to say. Most likely fewer robberies, assaults, rapes etc. More deaths? Again, hard to say, but definately within the realm of possibility.

I always try to answer as honestly as possible Curval. Btw, how is the weather in the Bahamas....errr I mean Bermuda?

[Toad]

Bermuda doesn't participate in the uniform crime reporting system. They also don't publish crime statistics. Go figure.

They do have one statistic out there.

The following appeared in a Bermuda newspaper, an article by By Tony McWilliam and Don Burgess:

Bermuda's a world leader -- in prison numbers

 BERMUDA is a world leader when it comes to locking up criminals. The island tops a global league table for imprisonment, beating out even the U.S. and South Africa.

Not making a judgement, just stating a few facts.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by rpm
Lock your guns, educate your kids. Laziness is no excuse for responsability. That is the point.

Yet there are those on this BBS that would argue that your statement is infringing on the rights to store their guns in the way they see fit

[Curval]

One of the reasons we have such a high incarceration rate here is the very high prices that drug dealers get for their products.  It is a small island and therefore relatively easy to prevent illegal drugs from getting in.  But, the laws of supply and demand are such that when supply is low, but demand is high...the price goes through the roof.

As a result of this we have a constant stream of drug mules being caught at the airport and the docks trying their luck.  If successful they do very well from the sales of their drugs.

Unfortunately we do not deport those that are caught, we simply lock them up.  For a real long time.  I am of the opinion that these people should be sent "packing" back to their countries of origin rather than waste our public funds on keeping them in jail, but it is not just up to me.

Elfie, thanks for the honest response.

Personally I don't like the trade off.  I feel that my children are safer because there are very very few guns in circulation.

Maybe the number of robberies and muggings would decline...maybe...but the increased chance of harm coming to my family is not worth it if the people were readily armed.

I've joked around with Toad about my use of a nine-iron to defend my family...but in all honesty if I confronted a burgular who was armed with a knife I think I could at least hold him off.  If that same person had a gun then I'd be in trouble.  My only option would be to have to arm myself as a result.  It is a visious cycle that Americans have to deal with...almost a citizen vs. crimminal arms race.  I feel lucky to not be involved in that.

[lazs2]

rpm... you rail against the NRA and in the same breath cry for gun safety education... you love all your wussy liberal friends who make even talking about guns in school (except for the negative... like the old reefer madness pogums)

The NRA has 50,000 safety instructors and last year safety trained near 1,000,000 people ... How many did the people you aprove of train?

I believe safety training is much nore important than storage.  I believe that Children should be trained to not start the house on fire or play on the freeway or play with guns.  

I don't believe there are enough gun accidents for toddlers to make it worthwhile to negate the usefulness of firearms or the rights of firearms owners by making draconian gun storage laws.  I believe such laws are only made to make it even more difficult to be a gun owner and that is their sole objective.  

No gun storage law to date has proved to reduce crime or accidents in any way.

lazs

[lazs2]

and... do we convict mothers who's attention span wanders and their toddler crawls behind a backing vehicle that then runs over and kills him?  or one who forgot to empty every 5 gallon bucket on the spred after the last rain?   do we simply enact safe storage laws for 5 gallon buckets and cars?

Accidents happen.   they will allways happen with tools or recreational devices or just children.... some children will be able to defeat even the most dilignet safety devices or most attentive parents.


show me the proof that safe storage laws prevent accidents in any community that they have been used in.   show me the drop in accidents not how you "feel" or your version of "common sense".

lazs

[rpm]

Laz, show me a 4 year old that can crack a gunsafe and disable a trigger lock. Oh BTW, you have no clue of my politics on this subject, other than what I think of the NRA.

[Toad]

Do they even make a 5 gallon bucket safe?

CPSC has received reports of 459 young children who drowned in bathtubs, buckets, toilets, spas, hot tubs and other containers of water in a 4-year period between 1996 and 1999.

Oh... wait.... it's OK. Whew. No bathtubs, buckets, toilets, spas, hot tubs or other containers of water were specifically designed to drown children.

What a relief and and such a great comfort to the parents.

[GtoRA2]

Toad,
 I am going to let you in on a secret. 5 gallon buckets were secretly designed by the CIA to specificaly kill Russian babies. Unfortunatly, US corperations, being evil, took the design, and sold it in the US as well.

The CIA cant stop it because they would have to admit what the design was for in the first place.

The corperations, KNOW what it was designed for but will not pull the buckets because of all the cash they are pulling in.



DAMN THE CIA AND Corperate Slave traders!! DAMN THEM TO HELL!!

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by lazs2
do we simply enact safe storage laws for 5 gallon buckets and cars?

Interesting question lazs. Hmmmm what should we do about car safety? Perhaps we should make drivers apply for a license, pass a test which shows they undertstand basic safety, rules etc, license vehicles as safe and fit for the road. Hell maybe we could even fit locks to cars! What do you think about that idea?

[Holden McGroin]

Well Vulcan, if we did that it would completely stop children from getting guns...

SAND LAKE, Mich. Feb 7, 2005 — A 4-year-old boy drove his mother's car to a video store a quarter-mile from their apartment in this town about 15 miles north of Grand Rapids.

Unable to reach the accelerator, the boy managed to put the car in gear and make his way to the store about 1:30 a.m. Friday, Sand Lake Police Chief Doug Heugel said. Finding the store closed, the youngster began a slow trip home.

Weaving and with its headlights off, the car got the attention of Officer Jay Osga, who first thought he was following a car that had been left running at a gas pump. He flipped on his lights when the car turned into the apartment complex and struck two parked cars. The boy put the car in reverse and struck Osga's cruiser.

Osga then discovered the boy, whose mother told police her son tried to drive the car earlier after she let him steer the vehicle from her lap.

"He's 4 years old, his mom didn't even know he was up," Heugel told The Grand Rapids Press for a Sunday story. "I don't think he even realizes what he did."

[Vulcan]

Yes the indicent rate of 4 year olds stealing cars and running down people is horrific in the states. What are you people feeding your kids?

[Holden McGroin]

If you had read my post, you would note that there were no casualties.

The point is that all the controls you advocated did not work to keep this child from driving.  His mother showed irresponsibility in driving with her son on her lap.  Yet another law (child vehicular restraints) flouted.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
If you had read my post, you would note that there were no casualties.

 I must've missed that.... not