Author Topic: Turning The Tables George Galloway  (Read 6236 times)

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2005, 02:43:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
lots of the usual ad-hominem missing any real substance.


I'll repeat what I said ealier, if Iraq was a resource-poor rat-hole, you probably wouldn't even be able to find it on a map, not that I think you could anyway.

Now it is entirely your right to fly in the face of reality and in the face of sixty years of your own political history during which time successive US governments have made control of the resources of the persian gulf their number one strategic priority.

It is a fact that US hegemony is based largely on the status of the dollar as the global reserve currency in which oil sales are denominated.

How do you think the US will contain the threat of the Euro as an alternative global reserve currency and at the same time send a message to Opec that it will not tolerate the move to redenominate oil sales in euros and the subsequent undermining of the dollar's reserve status.? By ensuring that Iraqi oil is paid for in dollars and by sending a clear signal to the rest of Opec that military action will be used to maintain US hegemony.

How does the US contain the growing competition of China and in particular counter it's economic exposure due to dependance on China's dollar consumption? By ensuring that it controls the oil upon which China will be increasingly dependant for its economic growth and thus ensuring that China continues hold dollars and not dump them.

Despite your assertions to the contrary, this is not an ideological view of the situation, it is a realpolitik view. There may be other subsidiary motives for the invasion; no doubt the powerful pro-Israel lobby supported it for their own reasons, but the ostensible pretexts for war are just to flimsy on their own. Take oil out of the equation and an invasion would basically make no sense, despite your and other's passionate attachment to defending whichever spurious rationalisations are current.

Offline Steve

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« Reply #106 on: May 21, 2005, 02:46:03 AM »
Momus, none of your ladt post is the least bit relevent to what you and I were discussing.  You can scream at the top of your lungs all day that the invasion was the wrong thing to do; I don't care. We weren't discussing that.
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #107 on: May 21, 2005, 02:56:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Momus, none of your ladt post is the least bit relevent to what you and I were discussing.


Oh shocker!

Welcome to internet BBS' (the actual validity of your claim aside).

It's kinda rare to get a guy here who knows wtf he's talking about, and you gonna dismiss him with "Gee it's not what I was talking about?"

Hows about you do what we all do, and roll with the punches?

........ Although I think you're wrong, and what Momus has been saying is highly relevant.

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #108 on: May 21, 2005, 03:55:18 AM »
Steve, it is relevant because you seem to persist in falling back on claims of an humantitarian motivation for invading Iraq when anyone with half a clue knows that western Governments as a rule don't spend hundreds of billions of dollars out of altruism.

What it boils down to is that the reasons given for invading Iraq were spurious or made little sense.

The WMD issue is increasingly viewed as defunct and irrelevant, as numerous people predicted it would be three years ago.

The invasion hasn't helped counter Islamic terrorism; in the last year attacks around the world have increased ninefold.

The invasion has specifically fostered a potentially dangerous union between Ba'athists and fundamentalists in the region where none existed previously.

The invasion has reinforced the primary contention of the radical islamists such as Bin Laden that the Islamic nations of the world are under occupation by the west who covet their resources and has thus enabled the radicalisation of yet another generation of Arabs.

This all is furthermore highly relevant to this thread because it is exactly the argument that George Galloway has been making for the last five years. I am no fan of his extreme marxist politics but his knowledge of the persian gulf and of the arab people is second to none, and most if not all of his arguments have so far been proved right.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2005, 03:57:54 AM by Momus-- »

Offline Schaden

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« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2005, 04:41:24 AM »
Scott Ritter was a senior UN weapons inspector in Iraq between 1991 and 1998; his new book, Iraq Confidential: The Untold Story of America's Intelligence Conspiracy, will be published this summer

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1489174,00.html

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #110 on: May 21, 2005, 05:57:11 AM »
In Scott Ritter's 1998 testimony before the US Congress he also said that, absent UNSCOM, Iraq could reconstruct its chemical and biological weapons programs in six months, as well as its missile program.  He said that Iraq had a plan for achieving a missile breakout within six months of receiving the signal from Saddam.
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Offline Torque

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« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2005, 07:59:11 AM »
"The most important issue here is salvaging a failed policy. Now, the U.S. Government has committed itself towards this failed policy, and there's a lot of people whose reputations are at stake there. And if Scott Ritter's going to go out and try and change that failed policy, there's going to be some ruffled feathers.

When I resigned, I put the U.S. Government on notice that I'm going to stick to policy issues, that I have no intention of going out and blowing the cover off of the intelligence operations, that those are truly sensitive and they should not be exposed. But I also said a couple of things. One, if you attack my integrity, I will defend myself. If you attack my patriotism, I will defend myself. If you come after my family, I will counter-attack viciously, I will destroy you. Don't push those buttons, and we've got a good relationship. Stick on policy. I say you're wrong, you say you're right, let's have it out."


he also said this.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2005, 08:05:22 AM »
Yes, but it appears he said that after he developed his 20/20 hindsight.
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Offline Schaden

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« Reply #113 on: May 21, 2005, 08:25:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Galoway strikes me as a faily run of ther mill charismatic sociopath, it's trhis quality that makes him so convincing if you are pre disposed to his line of thought.


If you want sociopaths apparently the place to look is in America's armed forces.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,1489001,00.html

So just explain to me what exactly the difference between you lot and Saddam Hussein actually is.....it's a little confusing....and no we're not jealous of you, we think of you as petulant, un - educated bullies.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #114 on: May 21, 2005, 08:34:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
I'll repeat what I said ealier, if Iraq was a resource-poor rat-hole, you probably wouldn't even be able to find it on a map, not that I think you could anyway.

Now it is entirely your right to fly in the face of reality and in the face of sixty years of your own political history during which time successive US governments have made control of the resources of the persian gulf their number one strategic priority.

It is a fact that US hegemony is based largely on the status of the dollar as the global reserve currency in which oil sales are denominated.

How do you think the US will contain the threat of the Euro as an alternative global reserve currency and at the same time send a message to Opec that it will not tolerate the move to redenominate oil sales in euros and the subsequent undermining of the dollar's reserve status.? By ensuring that Iraqi oil is paid for in dollars and by sending a clear signal to the rest of Opec that military action will be used to maintain US hegemony.

How does the US contain the growing competition of China and in particular counter it's economic exposure due to dependance on China's dollar consumption? By ensuring that it controls the oil upon which China will be increasingly dependant for its economic growth and thus ensuring that China continues hold dollars and not dump them.

Despite your assertions to the contrary, this is not an ideological view of the situation, it is a realpolitik view. There may be other subsidiary motives for the invasion; no doubt the powerful pro-Israel lobby supported it for their own reasons, but the ostensible pretexts for war are just to flimsy on their own. Take oil out of the equation and an invasion would basically make no sense, despite your and other's passionate attachment to defending whichever spurious rationalisations are current.


Of course you ignore the fact that the only reason the US is in Iraq is

1. because Iraq invaded Kuwait
2. Iraq refused to allow inspectors to do their job

Also, you ignore the fact that the US never once has invaded a country for it's resources.

Why don't you give ONE example of the US controling any middle east oil? You should  have many examples, as you claim that is the number one US goal for 60 years.

And the "pro Israel" lobby :lol . It's not a true conspiracy without throwing that one in there!


The first war on Iraq was to make sure that Iraq didn't threaten the world's oil supplies in the middle east. We didn't go there to take any oil. In fact, we did not take any oil or take control of any oil.

Can you give even one example of the US controiling any country's oil supply? Look at all the oil the US is controlling and then get back to me.

Of course, you ignore Iraq's actions completely. No, Iraq did nothing wrong and could no way be even remotely considered the catalyst for what ended up happening to themselves.

I guess you have blinders on and ignore any Iraqi involvement leading up to BOTH gulf wars. Just go ahead and be a simpleton and say it's about the oil, despite one shred of evidence. That's what you simpleton's do best.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #115 on: May 21, 2005, 08:38:01 AM »
face it... we probly didn't give a crap about the iraquis at first till we got conned by the media showing us the way the sadman tortured and murdered what?  a lousy couple hundred thousand or so of his own people and his arrogance.

we didn't give a **** about the froggies or the poles or the english in the 40's either till we got conned by the media into thinking hitler was a monster.   Hell... the germans allways treated us fine and they made some neat stuff and... heck... we even had realtives back there.

We woulda never cared about a crapload of asians getting killed and homeless in some wave if it weren't for the media either.

lazs

Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #116 on: May 21, 2005, 08:44:33 AM »
Funny how when a couple of news sources get it wrong you jump all over it..But when your pres gets it completely wrong you defend him over and over again.

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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #117 on: May 21, 2005, 08:52:26 AM »
seems to me I recall him invading his next door neighbor...  seems to me I also recall that there were inspectors that he threw out of the country.   He was warned like what?  a dozen times?   He laughed and blustered and threatened and generaly made himself out to be an unlikable and dishonest a hole.   He did support terrorists and he did torture and kill countless thousands of his own people...  

And... he liked Elvis on black velvet paintings and gold toilet seats.  That should be enough for you liberals right there.

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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #118 on: May 21, 2005, 08:52:56 AM »
Funny how people say the war was about oil.
 
Everyone knows that Saddam would never be a threat to anyone once left alone.

Only a complete simpleton could believe the war was about the US getting control of Iraq's oil.

Offline SkyRock

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« Reply #119 on: May 21, 2005, 09:59:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Anyone who doesn't think Saddam was a threat is just living in fairy-land.

No one said he wasnt a threat, but if a list was made of most dangerous threat at the time, he wouldnt have been in the top ten.

Rush to war my ass. 14 years of ignored UN resolutions.

LMAO he said resolutions.

We have the intelligence to calculate the distance to a 1/2 mile rock floating in space and land a module on it, but no better way to handle a rouge dictator than to spend billions of dollars and countless lives.  Very nice use of assets if you ask me.

Most of the world believed that Saddam had WMD. We did the right thing at the exact right time.

I wonder who worked dilligently to ensure that most people believed he had WMD's?   "Patriotism should never be a blind faith".

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