Author Topic: 109 K-4 with 1.98ata  (Read 10496 times)

Offline FalconSix

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109 K-4 with 1.98ata
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2005, 03:44:41 AM »
You're still presumptuous. Why do I have to prove anything to you? Who made you an authority figure on this BBS? And yes, you don't know anything, but you sure act like you do Mr. 110G-2 in Battle of Britain. You have clearly shown you know very little about anything, and don't even understand the operating basics of piston engines, yet you presume to lecture others.

Why I even bother replying to you I don't know.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2005, 03:48:28 AM »
Operating basics of pistons lol.
For 9 years I was mechanic on gas turbine and piston engined aircraft.
Airframes and Engines.
Lynx, Gazelle, Scout, islander.

Then 3 years on commercial airliners, airframes mainly.
727, 737, 767, Airbus, Do 228, Do 328 and Cessna Citation.

I wouldn't bother either if I was you.

Re: The BoB 110 - I believe the one we use in the BoB scenario wasn't the common one in the BoB (I think 1 or 2 units were equipped with it? Or so I've been told), I just picked the wrong one in the AH2 lineup, not hard to do at 5.00am after only being BACK from work a short period.

Hey if you get the K4 @1.98 fine, just would have liked to seen some evidence.

Signing off, before it turns into a slanging match.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2005, 04:15:25 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2005, 09:12:04 AM »
I just found a major flaw in my fuel consumption figures, I overlooked something and made an incorrect comparison/assumption.

Can hardly keep them valid since its something I accuse others of.

Ignore them.

Ok thats definately the end for me.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2005, 09:29:20 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2005, 09:32:27 AM »
Quote
Ok thats definately the end for me.


We can only hope...

Offline TimRas

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« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2005, 03:46:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix

OUR 109G-10 RUNS ON 1.98 ATA NOW! PYRO MADE IT SO!


E6B shows 52.1"= 1.80 ata

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2005, 06:49:49 AM »
You couldn't resist it could you Wotan? Fine.

As neither you of Kurfurst can't/won't provide any evidence of C3 usage here is Allied estimates of total (B4, C3, A3) fuel usage by the LW Jan thru Mar 1945.

(Figures are in tons)


Total estimates for all parts including those not included in the chart eg training etc are:
Jan : 32000, Feb: 29000, Mar: 23500, Apr: ? prob well below 20000

Original doc here

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/Tom%20Reels/Linked/A5464/A5464-0519-0539%20Item%204B.pdf

OK granted it's allied estimates - But its more than either of you two have shown.
Interesting is the point that the doc dated Mar 20 that calls for 20 units to convert to K4's is at the same time fuel usage by the German aircraft industry hit an all time low!

Before you get all excited - The increase in front line op's was achived by cutting back fuel usage in all other areas. The overall fuel usage Jan to Mar is declining. Theres a lot more in the doc that is not included in the total column, used those categoies to show OVERALL decline.

So put YOUR evidence up for all too see (if you have any).

Will not comment any futher until the day anyone can show C3 usage/stockpiles, the challenge is there.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2005, 07:29:11 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2005, 07:41:19 AM »
"Hey if you get the K4 @1.98 fine, just would have liked to seen some evidence."

"Interesting is the point that the doc dated Mar 20 that calls for 20 units to convert to K4's is at the same time fuel usage by the German aircraft industry hit an all time low!"

Well, is that a surprise?

I think the point is will the K4 be modelled using B4 or C3, and WHY?

The aircraft version was designed to use C3 even if it was possibly not available at the time. If the Ki84 is modelled using the available fuel, and not the fuel the a/c was designed to use, it is pretty clear what the policy of HTC will be on this matter no matter what we say.

It will be realistic for scenarios, from that point of view, but then again a bunch of K4s facing allied armadas does not sound too facy a scenario anyway. Considering the competitiveness of K4 to other planes in MA, and numerical restrictions in scenarios, IMO it would be advisable to give K4 its C3.

-C+
« Last Edit: August 10, 2005, 08:21:42 AM by Charge »
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2005, 08:47:03 AM »
Quote
OK granted it's allied estimates - But its more than either of you two have shown.


I am the one gave the link to Fischer-Tropsch... :rolleyes:

All you have to do is search for Butch's replies on this subject on this forum...

Why don't follow your own advice:

Quote
Ignore them.

Ok thats definately the end for me.


and go start another thread about how the AH world hates Spitfires...

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2005, 10:01:25 AM »
The Fischer-Tropsch link I found on another BB, I didn't realise you had posted it also.

Just gotta get the last word in haven't you?

But I see still no proof, just the usual skip over it.

Nothing to do with 'hating spitfires', just the double standards and HYPOCRISY both you and Kurfurst demonstrate.

This will be my last as it's obvious neither of you have any intention of backing up any claims, yet expect other people to do so.

BYEEEEE
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Offline Creton

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« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2005, 10:11:33 AM »
At about the time of the Spitfire XIV's entry into service its Me 109 counterpart was the Me 109 G-6 with the DB-605 A cleared for 1.42 ata take-off and emergency. The DB-605 AS, with improved altitude performance, came into service during the spring of 1944. MW-50 was introduced that summer in the Me 109 G-6/R2 and Me 109 G-14 enabling improved low altitude performance.

The following chart demonstates how the Spitfire XIV performed during the first half of its wartime service relative to its Me 109 rival. For more on the Spitfire data refer to the Spitfire XIV section of this site. The +18 lb. level speed performance is from AFDS which is nearly identical to that charted by Rolls Royce. The RAE commented on the Griffon 65 engine in Tech. Note No. Eng. 316 from July 1944 "Due to main bearing troubles, these engines are at present limited to + 21 lb./sq.in. boost pressure although they will be capable of operation at +25 lb./sq.in. boost pressure in the future". The same report gives 393 mph at 3,000 ft. as the total possible a/c speed using +21 lb boost, extrapolating to 377 mph at sea level. Back in June Rolls Royce had obtained 366 mph at sea level. Calculated estimates indicate that actual performance was probably somewhere between the two, or about 370 mph at SL. For comparison, the first production Spitfire 21 with Griffon 61 at +21 lbs. boost achieved 368 mph at SL. Absolute max speed at full throttle height would only have increased a few mph with the increase from +18 to +21 lb. boost. No 610 Operations Record Book shows that by July 18, 1944 their Spitfire XIVs were undergoing modifications to operate at +21 boost.

All Me 109 data used in the following charts comes from German sources. The curve of Me 109 G-5 with DB 605 AS engine at 1.3 ata is the only Me 109 curve below reflecting data from actual flight trials. It can be seen that the effect of the hydraulic coupled supercharger is properly represented (for more Me 109 G curves derived from flight trials see: HERE). Unfortunately this feature is often missing from estimated performance curves. The Me 109 G-5 and 6 curves at Start and Notleistung (take-off and Emergency) shown below are approximations, whereas the curve for the Me 109 G6/R-2 again accounts for the effect of the hydraulic coupled supercharger, although with rather less precision than that of the flight tested Me 109 G-5. The Me 109 G-14/U4 curve is an estimate by Messerschmitt's Projecktburo assumming DB 605 ASM engine using MW-50, Gondelwaffen and weight of 7,817 lbs. The GL/C-E2 for a clean G-14 with ASM engine gives 348 mph at Sea Level and 422 mph at FTH. Messerschmitt's Flugbericht Nr. M 35/25 dated 4 July 1944 determined that the MW-50 installation on the DB 605 AM engine allowed for a brief increase in boost pressure to 1,75 ata/2800 rpm, increasing sea level speeds from 315 mph to 352 mph. This corresponds well with the G6/R-2 curve below, which is equivalent to the G-14 with AM engine.

Unfortunately there is little known documentation for climb performance of the Me 109 G using 1.42 ata. The following charts reflect performance of the Spitfire XIV and Me 109 K from the introduction of the K in mid October 1944 through to VE day. The Spitfire XIV's performance was rather stable, new development going toward the Spitfire Mk 21, whereas efforts were taken to increase the output of the DB 605 D series in order to make the Me 109 K-4 more competitive. Unfortunately, flight trials of Me 109 Ks appear not to exist. The following 109 K curves were produced by Messerschmitt's Project Bureau at Oberammergau. While the curves are rather simplistic estimates (the effect of the hydraulic coupled supercharger being absent for example), they should give some idea of potential, however, they should be treated with reserve.

The Projektbüro estimate from 19.1.45 assumes 9-12159 propeller, and a weight of 7,496 lbs. Documentation listed below demonstrates that the most prevalant configuration for the ME 109 K beginning in around January 1945 would be DB 605 DB engine with 1.80 ata/2800 rpm engine limitations. GL/C-E2 from 1.11.44 gives 360 mph at SL, 441 mph at 24,606 ft. with production 9-12159 propeller. Various engine and propeller configurations were experimented with. The 9-12159 propeller was the standard production propeller but various German curves are extant showing estimated performance of the 109 K4 with 9-12199.10 and 9-17018.10 thin blade (Dünnblatt) props and Projektschraube with 4 light-metal blades. The 452 mph figure often cited as the top speed of the Me 109 K-4 derives from an estimate assumming an experimental 9-12199 Dünnblatt propeller. The DB 605 DC at 1.8 ata without MW-50 was tried but did not find favour. (Die E-stelle hat Bedenken gegen den Betrieb mit 1,8 ata Aufladung ohne MW mit C 3 Kraftstoff.) The DB 605 DC at 1.98 ata with MW was tested but seems not to have made it into service (Nach Mitteilung der E'Stelle sind 1,98 ata gesperrt.)

The November 1944 edition of the Bf 109 K-4 Flugzeug-Handbuch states:

which translates to: The MW installation serves to increase the emergency power of the engine. With 1,75 ata boost pressure, additional injection of MW increases emergency power (special emergency power) and can occasionally be used to increase level speed and rate of climb. The MW additive serves for the interior cooling of the engine and for the avoidance of overheating during flight with special emergency power. The use of the special emergency power without MW injection is forbidden! The engine is endangered without MW injection. The withdrawal of the special emergency power is done via putting the throttle lever forward on 1,75 ata boost pressure (number of revolutions 2850 U/min).

Aspera G.m.b.H., Kamenz on orders from OKL Chef TLR F1. E. 3 V reports in Geschwindigkeitmessungen mit 4 VDM Luftschrauben auf Me 109 K4 mit DB 605 D dated 4 January 1945 that full measurments could not be reported due to engine damage at 1.98 ata. Trotz mehrerer Stunden schonenden Einfliegens des Motors mit Dauerleistung vor den Messreihen mit Kampfleistung stellte sich bei den ersten Prüfläufen nach der Umstellung auf p = 1,98 ata ein Motorschaden heraus, der einen Motorwechsel .


JB12

Offline Creton

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« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2005, 10:15:08 AM »
Interner Aktenvermerk Nr. 6642 from Daimler-Benz (internal memo) dated 17.1.45 reports on a meeting held 10 January 1945 at OKL, Berlin. All 4 DB 605 DC engines supplied to Rechlin from DB-Genshagen failed (pistons, piston rods, supercharger), therefore special emergency power DC (1.98 ata boost pressure) for the troop is not released (die Sondernotleistung DC (1,98 ata Ladedruck) für die Truppe nicht freigegeben).

Niederschrift Nr 6717 from Damiler-Benz, dated 19.1.45, states that DB 605 D engines from Kassel are delivered at 1.80 ata boost with B4 and Mw 50. Die Motoren DB 605 D werden in Kassel allgemein mit Ladedruck 1,80 ata mit B4 und Mw 50 abgenommen.

Niederschrift Nr 6730 of Daimler Benz dated 24 January 1945 details discussion at a conference held 20 January 1945 in the office of the Chief engineer of the Luftwaffe in Berlin: It states that testing of 1.98 boost pressure may be done provisionally at Group 2/11, only engines with 1.8 boost may be supplied and strict punishment is threatened if this instruction is neglected. Also of note is mention of problems due to poor quality fuel as well as a devastating comparison of the Me 109 and the Mustang.

Niederschrift Nr 6731 of Daimler Benz also dated 24 January 1945 discusses a meeting held at Rechlin on 16.1.45. Some of the same material is discussed as in Nr 6730, the conclusions being that 1,98 ata is not to be used on the front line. Testing at Rechlin will continue.

Messerschmitt's Erprobungsbericht Nr. 15 vom 16.1.45 bis 15.2.45 dated 22.2.45 states that 1.98 ata is blocked, testing done at 1.80 ata: WM 50 Betreib - Nach Mitteilung der E'Stelle sind 1,98 ata gesperrt. Die Erprobung (Funktion und Kerzentemperatur) wird vorläufig mit 1,80 ata (2800 U/min) durchgeführt.

Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion dated 14 March 1945 gives instructions for the adjustment of engine settings. Sämtliche Änderungen sind durch die Forderung bedingt, für die leistungsgesteigerten Motoren auch B4 Kraftstoff minderer Qualität ohne Gefahr verwenden zu können. Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben; da jedoch, sowohl von Neubaufertigung als auch Reparatur, die Abgabe gewöhnlich in Ausführung 605 ASB und 605 DB erfolgt, werden nahezu alle 605 Motoren von diesen Änderungen erfasst. The following table from this report shows that special emergency power remained at 1.8 ata, further power levels being reduced by about .05 ata

No evidence has yet been found that +25 lbs boost was employed in service by Spitfire XIV squadrons prior to VE day. Even at +25 lbs. the Spitfire XIV still fell short of the sea level performance of the Tempest V and highly boosted Mustangs. Ceding the low altitude role to those types, the Spitfire XIV happily carried out its medium and high altitude role providing her pilots the confidence to "mix it" with any opposition that came their way.

JB12
« Last Edit: August 10, 2005, 11:31:39 AM by Creton »

Offline Creton

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« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2005, 10:25:47 AM »
Olivier Lefebvre, noted authority on the BF 109, has stated:

    The DB605DM was cleared up to 1.75ata, the DB605DB pushed the limit up to 1.8ata, both could be sustained with use of either B4+MW-50 (as mentionned in various documents, even if it was an afterthought in the DM case) or C3-MW-50. However the DB605DC max boost at 1.98ata could be achieved with use of C3+MW-50 only.

    As for the fuel supply, I own copies showing detailed stockpile status for February-April 1945... But yes the C3 was definitely scarce.

    As of March 1945 only a handful of 109 gruppen were using C3 for their mounts, one of the few being the II/JG11 which were responsible for testing the 605DB/DC over January-March 1945. According to a document dated late January 1945 coming from DB the 1.80 had just been cleared following serious troubles (pre-ignition) reported by the unit testing the 1.80 ata boost. It is also noted that following the clearance of the 1.8ata boost the 1.98ata operational tests could now begin but with concern about the sparkplugs thermal resistance IIRC. C3 was not used by 109 units until the 1.98ata boost was cleared, they relied on B4+MW-50 so that C3 could go to the 190 units. And even after the clearance only few gruppen got it because of shortages due not only to C3 production but also to C3 delivery to the units.

    AFAIK 1.98ata boost was cleared late February but it seems to have been slowly introduced into service, I suspect the adjustments needed on the engine and the change of sparkplugs type (supply problems ???) took longer than expected. From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944. While it was not much of a problem with low boost, it had some serious effect on higher boost, so it might also have slowed down the introduction of 1.98ata boost. At least DB documents underlined the need for cleaner fuels than those in use at that time. You can safely assume that by March 1945 1.98 ata boost was being introduced, unfortunately I do not have much details for April 1945, but I doubt it would have changed much, given the situation.

JB12

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2005, 10:46:24 AM »
Thanks JB12  - finally, should of guessed would come from someone else.

Seen the last post details before, never seen the first post details before.

Up to you but you may want to remove the 2nd to last paragraph in the 1st post, some may find some of the langugage inapropriate, your call. The one that starts "No evidence has come to light proving operational use of 1.98 ata ". As I said your call. I don't think it affects the overall content.

RE: the 2nd post
As I said I've seen that before.
Couple of questions -

a) As for the fuel supply, I own copies showing detailed stockpile status for February-April 1945... But yes the C3 was definitely scarce.
He the only guy with these reports?

b)"You can safely assume that by March 1945 1.98 ata boost was being introduced" -
Safely assume? Be nice to have some form of corroboration.

c)II/JG11 - that was the unit of G10s?

d) April 9 operational 79 aircraft were a mix of K4/G10, anyone got more accurate figures than "K4's and some g-10".

e)1.98ata boost was cleared late February
But not ordered/proposed until 20 Mar according to docs. In fact a German document dated 19 Mar listing unit, equipment and fuel shows no K4 unit on C3.
So we know prior to 19 Mar B4 was the fuel for K4 units.


Apologies poor quality, to see it well you need to print out then blow it up.

Thanks for the help and info JB12

No one got any links to any documents at all?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2005, 11:06:54 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline FalconSix

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109 K-4 with 1.98ata
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2005, 11:19:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
In fact a German document dated 19 Mar listing unit, equipment and fuel shows no K4 unit on C3.
So we know prior to 19 Mar B4 was the fuel for K4 units.


Now you're making the assumptions. The only thing that document tells you is that on March 19th no K-4 unit had stocks of C-3. The document does not tell you that they didn't have C-3 earlier or later than March 19th 1945. IIRC switching between B4 and C3 fuel in the field was an effortless matter of tuning the DB605, to the point of being little more than flipping a switch under the cowl.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2005, 11:22:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
Now you're making the assumptions. The only thing that document tells you is that on March 19th no K-4 unit had stocks of C-3. The document does not tell you that they didn't have C-3 earlier or later than March 19th 1945. IIRC switching between B4 and C3 fuel in the field was an effortless matter of tuning the DB605, to the point of being little more than flipping a switch under the cowl.


Not quite look further up -

1.98ata boost was cleared late February but it seems to have been slowly introduced into service, I suspect the adjustments needed on the engine and the change of sparkplugs type (supply problems ???)

Hardly flipping a switch.

Yuor correct is doen't help after 19th March, still looking for stuff on that, hard to find. Or anyone with links.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2005, 11:26:23 AM by Kev367th »
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